27/05/2016 Newsnight

The one thing which is absolutely dependable, is that anything Boris

says, you can find him saying the opposite only

The Conservatives are at each other's throats

In an exclusive interview Chris Patten doesn't hold back.

I'll be asking Jacob Rees-Mogg who called Michael Heseltine

a frightful old humbug, if the rancour runs too deep

The Prime Minister has announced that we are upping our engagement

with Libya, sending a warship to the territory, and personnel

The way it has been dealt with in Iraq and Syria has shown to be

reasonably successful. And I think taking that model and transposing it

to Libya, has to be a good thing. What kinds of backgrounds do these

city idiots come from? The government wants a background

checklist for job interviews to stop An economist and expert

on social mobility backs it. A public school educated solicitor

thinks it's a terrible idea. The closer to the date

of the referendum we get, the more difficult it is to see how

the Conservative party is going to bind itself together again,

the more visceral the language, the thicker the mud

that's being slung. If the issue of the EU

is at the heart of their political credo, how can Cabinet mnisters

so opposed to each other sit around And then there's Boris,

not in the Cabinet, but a big beast roaring at David Cameron -

just yesterday - about the scandal of the government's failure

to curb immigration. The former Tory Chairman Chris

Patten, and current Chancellor of Oxford University -

a big beast himself - has given an exclusive interview

to Newsnight's David Grossman in which his criticism

of Boris Johnston in in which his criticism

of Boris Johnson in Does it make you proud that the main

protagonists on either I'm proud of two of them,

I'm not sure about the other two! Particularly since their regard

for the truth seems They seem to economise on the verite

to a certain extent. Let's talk about how

the campaign is going, in your view, through

some of those people. I was looking back at some

of the archive and there was a wonderful shot of you coming

down the stairs of Central Office in about 1992, I think it was,

and following you is a young man wearing red braces,

who is recognisable What do you think about his

contribution to all of this? For a start, we wouldn't be having

a referendum were it not for him. Well, I think we wouldn't be having

a referendum were it not for the way that this psychodrama has engulfed

the Conservative Party ever since the ERM debacle,

and I suppose ever since Margaret I think she was got rid

of because of the poll tax, rather than Europe,

but that's another matter. I think David Cameron

is incomparably the best qualified I'm not known to be terribly servile

in my attitude to people, but I think he's clever,

he's got good judgment, and if anyone can put this wreckage

back together again after - I hope - we have voted in favour

of staying in the European Union, I just hope we don't go

through all this again. Yeah, I worry that for a lot

of the Brexiteers, in a sort of spittle-flecked way,

this is a never-end-um, What do you make of Boris Johnson's

contribution? Jean-Claude Juncker has said

he's making stuff up. Yes, of course he is,

but he always has. One thing which is absolutely

dependable is that anything Boris says, you can find him saying

the opposite only So I don't take his intellectual

contribution to this campaign, although he is

a perfectly clever man. I think one of the things he resents

is that he didn't get as good But Boris just makes it

up as he goes along. And you come across people

like that. There is a sense in which you can't

call Boris a liar. I think he's one of those people

in life who simply doesn't really understand the difference

between fact and fiction. And if he can make a good joke

by saying something, or if he can write a newspaper

article by referring to Hitler and the European Union, he does it,

and he doesn't think about it. But he will be saying the opposite

in a few months' time. You know what Boris Johnson

would say if he was sat here? He would say, Chris Patten,

he was somebody who advocated We would be in a much bigger mess

if he had had his way. Why should we listen to him

on this matter? Actually, what I was really

in favour of, and I don't want to get into complicated

details, was a common currency, I put my hand up, everybody

occasionally makes a mistake, Though it's worth making

this additional point, that I think if we had joined

the euro, it might have avoided some of the mistakes that have

been made since. As a former chairman

of the Conservative Party, how does David Cameron bring

the party back together again? I think it would be very

difficult for him. Are people like Mr Gove

and Mr Johnson, Mr Duncan Smith - once the quiet man of British

politics, happy days! Are they all going to require

Mr Cameron to go cap in hand around Europe for the next few years trying

to negotiate new trade deals and new agreements with the

European Union? If we vote to stay in,

which I hope we do, he will have to balance managing the party

with making sure that people I'm sure he will know now,

to borrow a phrase of Ken Clarke's, or a metaphor of Ken Clarke's,

that there are some people on the right, you give them a bun

today and they come back I think some people have to be made

aware of the fact that we only have But he will have to try to bring

the party together. It will be easier, if,

as I said earlier, it will be easier if people accept the result,

and accept that we don't go I'm joined now from Bristol

by the pro-leave campaigner and Conservative MP,

Jacob Rees-Mogg. Somebody Chris Patten called a

spittle flecked Brexiteer. Good evening to you. Chris Patten

called it the Conservative psychodrama. I wonder if you think a

lot of the anger and division is synthetic or very deeply felt and

difficult to reconcile? Well, Lord Patten is a very great family

friend, a good friend of my father's and was very generous to me when I

was younger. He's a man of endless good humour and I think his anger is

almost certainly synthetic he's far too similar -- civilised a man to

believe a lot of what he said to you in that interview. Does he, like

Boris Johnson, not understand truth from fiction? I wouldn't say that,

he's a political pugilist and he recognises that Boris is twice as

trusted as the Prime Minister on the European issue so he's trying to

bash down Boris to support the prime and Esther's position. From a

pro-Remain point of view, it's a rational thing to do. -- Prime

Minister. You have called into question the veracity of what Chris

Patten said, yet he is very heartfelt in what he is saying about

the manner in which this debate is being conducted. Lord Patten has

always been a political showman. He is very good at the theatrical part

of politics. He has made an intervention in accord with that.

He's also a passionate pro-European and always has been. What he's doing

isn't unreasonable. I see why the remaining party want to damage Boris

Johnson because he's hugely popular and trusted across the country and

has been putting the Leave I didn't across very well. Let's talk about

Boris Johnson. -- the Leave argument across. He makes it up as he goes

along, says Chris Patten. You could take that to be something relatively

funny, like you can't have a handoff bananas in the European Union, it's

only got three fingers. You could also talk about him in voting the

memory of Hitler when it comes to a European superstate. -- invoking.

Are these things helpful to this debate? I think almost everything

Boris has said is factually accurate. When he appeared before

the Treasury Select Committee he was singularly accurate and well briefed

and the things he was asked about turned out to be correct. In

comparison with other people who have tried to create a superstate,

you can go back to Charlemagne. What Boris said was factually true. Will

you take something more to do with the economy? The committee's report

today was unanimous, it was unanimous in saying that the Leave

campaign's idea that the European Union sucks up ?350 million of

British money per day was wrong and highly misleading. Those are the

kind of figures Boris Johnson is putting about. It was a unanimous

report. Did you go along with that report? Did you have your finger is

on toes crossed? I don't want to be pedantic, but nobody said ?350

million per day. A week, I'm sorry. That was inflammatory language!

You're getting more inflammatory than the Brexiters! Not a precedent

for the BBC! That figure is the grace figure which excludes the

rebate. It's a bad figure, I have always said that, and I go along

with the report. More importantly it said the Chancellor's thoughts to

the Treasury report did not reflect the report. For the Chancellor of

the X to get to say some thing not strictly true is much more worrying.

-- of the exchequer to say something. Whichever way this vote

goes, can the DNA of the cabinet remain the same, all will be

Believers have to remain -- have to leave the Cabinet? -- will be

Levers. I'm campaigning to leave because I believe in British

democracy. If British people vote to remain, I must accept that and shut

up. If on the other hand they vote to leave, the remain side have to do

take it as well. It goes to the heart of great divisions in the

Cabinet. Four weeks out from the referendum, the language, and I have

to say you yourself through a quick stone at Michael Heseltine, the

language of the campaign over the next few weeks will not become

milder. Definitely not. But Michael Heseltine is big enough to cope with

being called an old humbug. I doubt it will have disrupted his sleep for

a second. In politics people make their arguments forcefully and

passionately and throw the odd insult about. Afterwards we all

settle down. Look at the Prime Minister and Nick Clegg in Downing

Street garden they formed the coalition. I wonder if you agree

with Chris Patten, that it's inconceivable that if vote Leave

wins and we are out of the European Union, is it inconceivable to you

that David Cameron would remain as leader, especially if he had to go

cap in hand to make trade deals and so forth? Do you think if Britain

votes to leave, David Cameron would leave number ten? I actively want

the Prime Minister to stay in those circumstances, because the first

thing we would have to do is improve our relationship with our European

friends and neighbours and he has bent a lot of time talking to them

and is in the best position to get the ball rolling. He will need tough

negotiators beneath him, but I'm a great supporter of the Prime

Minister in everything other than Europe. If we vote to leave, he will

have to get on with getting us out and I will give him the support to

do that. David Cameron made an announcement

today at the end of the G7 summit in Japan which signals an upping

of the Uk's engagement with Libya. The Royal Navy is preparing

to deploy another warship to the Mediterranean to help

tackle people smuggling Britain will also send a training

team to the North African state. The Prime minister said

it was in Britain's interests to support the new national unity

government, to help it grow, to help it have the ability to

control the country, but he refused to comment on reports that British

special forces are already engaged in fighting so-called

Islamic State in Libya. Last month, when reflecting

on his presidency, President Obama said that his worst mistake

was failing to plan for the day after the uprising in Libya,

and also made a rare criticism of David Cameron for becoming

"distracted" after the intervention. Here's our diplomatic

editor Mark Urban. A powerful warship like a type 45

destroyer, seen here practising its drills,

offers the chance to ramp up operations against

the Islamic State group. It could also be used to cordon

to British and Libyan vessels trying to intercept weapons

and people smugglers. All these options were opened up

by the Prime Minister's Britain should be helping,

we are already part And we want that to move to the next

stage of working with a Libyan government to stop boats leaving

in the first place and, over time, As we have seen in the eastern

Mediterranean, that's what works. But many a plan for relaunching

Libya and its security forces Last month, Foreign Secretary Philip

Hammond visited Tripoli and inspected the fledgling navy

that Britain hopes to build up, so it can police

migration and smuggling. But, we have been told,

the Libyans didn't sign off on his proposals,

and until Libyan and legal requirements are satisfied,

a new international naval mission Anyone in the military who operates

in a foreign country needs to have a legal status

of forces, a legal agreement. That starts with the United Nations

resolution. From that perspective,

any military commander going out to Libya would want to have

reassurances from the government So a comprehensive approach

to tackling scenes like this, where a grossly overloaded people

smuggler's boat capsized this week, remains elusive, while the British

government would like Libyan coastguards to be able to stop this

and take migrants back A threat to the whole project

remains from Islamic militants An effort against them sparked

accusations of mission creep. The complexity of the situation

in Libya plays into a whole bunch of other questions about the kind

of assistance that should be available to the new government

of national accord, and the incredibly delicate

political situation in Libya where there is now a real potential

of Libya going back to civil war The Libyan affiliates

of Islamic State now hold much of the coastline,

with one pocket centred on Sirte Britain's role in the struggle

against them includes intelligence gathering by HMS Enterprise,

a survey vessel, and a secret spy planes flying from

Akrotiri in Cyprus. Special forces, the Royal Marines

SPS, have long been active on the coast, and were this week

reported to be operating As for sending more,

the Royal Fleet auxiliary in the region could support more

special forces or training missions. And a frigate or destroyer

destroyer also soon be sent. For the time being though

much of the British Islamic State is one

of the greatest threats not just to Britain,

but to the world. And the way that it has been dealt

with in Iraq and Syria has shown And I think taking that model

and transposing it to Libya For the past five years,

the Royal Navy and British special forces have been in and out of Libya

and it has rarely been simple. Now there is the prospect

of a more ambitious mission, and everyone from operational

commanders to MOD lawyers will be These are some of the questions that

have been drawn up by Cabinet Office Minister Matt Hancock,

for people applying for jobs to try to stop discrimination

against the poor. Because rather than social mobility,

the UK suffers from social The questions will be drawn up

as a national standard, applied to civil servant job

applicants, and the government Perhaps the test could be applied

to would be Cabinet Ministers. Half the Cabinet were privately

educated, despite the fact only 7% Joining me to discuss this

is solicitor AbiJit Pandya, and from the think tank,

Class, the economist Faiza Shaheen. Good evening. In fact, the EU

referendum campaign probably demonstrates this problem quite

acutely. The four leaders of the campaign all went to Oxford. Three

out of the four are privately educated. Surely that is an

indication something has to change? I don't agree there is a problem. If

you look at the facts, last year 517,000 people were privately

educated out of a total of 8.2 million in this country. That saved

the Department of education ?3.5 billion. That is ?3.5 billion which

would go to poorer children, children whose parents cannot afford

private education. To suggest private education somehow undermines

opportunities in terms of the level of education poorer children get, is

deceiving. These potential measures, whether or not the applicant was

eligible for free school meals, the qualifications of their parents,

professions, income or wealth, isn't the danger that what you do is you

penalised the child for a decision made by the parents? No, is

happening is we have 50% of the Cabinet who went to private school,

we have 40% of the BAFTA winners went to private school, we have a

situation in law and journalism were if we had that situation in

football, we would not have David Beckham Morra Wayne Rooney today.

The reasons that we have to think about these measures is because the

situation so bad. There is no perfect solution. Does it feel like

a blunt instrument? No. There are some better measures than others.

For some young people from certain backgrounds, getting to the doorway

you can even write that application has been much harder. It is not

about positive discrimination, it is about levelling the playing field.

Do you accept it is harder for children from state schools who

perhaps do not have the support and all of the other things that go with

the private education, the feeling of certainty, the feeling of

confidence, the feeling that you can do something and nothing is barred

to you that macro that that is not open to a lot of children and that

is a bad inequality? I do not concede the point it is an

inequality. No, I don't. If you have got there on merit because your

parents have actually facilitated that, that is merit. It is not merit

his money. That is the -- your view of merit. Tony Hibbert your

situation. Your parents came to this country before you were born. They

thought sending you to private school would give you a better

chance in life? That is right. That is not the same as persecuting

people for not going to private education. When you say inequality,

that is a broad term with significantly nebulous meanings.

Let's college life chances. There are plenty of people who are

successful. It is how you measure success. The argument you are

putting forward is a particular type of job and Society, a select one,

and the vast majority of people do not become Cabinet ministers, is

being infiltrated by people from a select background. That is not the

grounds to change all opportunities across the board. It is across the

board. Even in acting and creative sectors now. This is very costly. It

is not just costly in terms of the influencers and the types of

policies and decisions that are made by people that do not experience

what most people in society do... I want to know if I am employing

someone that they are motivated, by knowing they have gone to a state

school and worked really hard, that is levelling the playing field.

Right now they are discriminated against. What happens when you have

a blind aptitude test? Is that in itself an indicator? Some of these

blind aptitude tests have their own vices. They can be better. Take for

instance the Oxford interviews. That bias is towards a certain type of

confidence that you will have if you went to private school. Your parents

decided to send you to a private school because they thought it was

better for you than a state education? That was their specific

view. Other parents may think differently. Other parents may want

to spend their money taking their children to water ski rather than

send them to private school. That is a decision for people. Not for the

state. Do you agree that often the companies that do best have a very

diverse group of people on the board, who bring different

experiences and different attitudes? Why would you need to change the

rules if that is already happening? My point at the start was that half

a million people in this country save ?3.5 billion for people who

cannot afford... It is important. If you want the resources for people

who can't afford it, the best way to do that is get more people in

private education. We cannot have people living segregated lives like

that. When you have private school and private health care, they are

less willing to put back in. That is why we see tax avoidance. It is a

misleading number. Thank you. Each week during the EU referendum

campaign, we want to offer you an oasis away from the facts,

fibs, flannel and fears being lobbed We bring you the thoughts

of influential determinedly not attached to one camp or the other,

but who who have thought deeply Tonight it's the former editor

of the Daily Telegraph and the official biographer

of Margaret Thatcher, Charles Moore. I've always thought it

mattered that we should have And that the people you vote

for govern you, and that when you are fed up with voting

for them, you vote them out. In the EU, there is no such thing

as the Leader of the Opposition. There is permanent government

by a governing class As the day approaches

I feel more strongly, partly because I have a sense

that the voters are being bullied. I mean, if we want the proof

that there is a sort of global elite telling us what to do,

we've been given it Every famous person in every other

country in the world has been telling us how to vote,

and every great big organisation which does well out of the system

is telling us how to vote. And the whole point about this

is it's us, not great big organisations and people

who run other countries. When people say that

they're thinking of - they can't decide but they're

are thinking they might vote Remain, I tend to raise the point of,

would you feel remorse? One of the things you should do

when a big decision comes is to maximise the power

of your decision. If you vote Remain, you will sink

without trace between the waves of Obama and Jean-Claude Juncker

and Hillary Clinton and the IMF and the World Bank

and the rest of them. They will be vindicated

in their fundamental complacency about the running

of the Western world. And your decision will

have been forgotten. I see some of the commentary

and they keep saying to the Leave campaign,

"What are you going to do That is not the Leave

campaign's job. They're not going to

be the government. So there's a lot of uncertainties,

not uncertainties that I think fundamentally about the future

of this country, which I think is secure outside the EU,

but about literally It worries me a bit but it does not

worry me nearly enough No Such Thing as the News

is on next, followed by Artsnight, in which Charlotte Church celebrates

the joy of the human voice and meets singers who are trying

to do things differently. But before we go, earlier,

Barack Obama became the first US president to visit Hiroshima

since his predecessor, Harry Truman, ordered the nuclear attack

on the city that ended Mr Obama used his speech,

perhaps audaciously, to draw some Good night.

The world was forever changed here. But today, the children of this city

will go through their day in peace. What a precious thing that is. It is

worth protecting. And then extending to every child. That is the future

we can choose. A future in which Hiroshima and Nagasaki are known as

the dawn of atomic warfare, but as the start of our own moral

awakening. Hello. Some fine weather this

weekend but there will be a sprinkling of thunderstorms. Some