14/06/2016 Newsnight

All this week, we're on our Referendum Road trip,

and we've moved our Newsnight studio truck south from Scotland

Tonight, we're live in Middlesbrough - a Labour heartland

where at the last election, Ukip have surged into second place -

to find out if Jeremy Corbyn's Remain message is what people

How many of you are thinking of voting Out?

The biggest single thing that people are talking about is

What is clear is that they don't understand why they

can't talk about it with their politicians and why their

The Remain campaign wheels out its not-so-secret weapons

Tonight, I'll ask this one why so many of their traditional voters

seem to think they're firing blanks on immigration.

Over the course of your professional lifetimes,

wounds would you estimate that you have each treated?

Probably all the fingers in this room would not count it up.

In Orlando, the killings have quickly become polemic.

Those on the right want to make this about Isis and immigration.

Those on the left want to make it about gun laws.

Those in the LGBT community feel they are getting lost in a political

narrative that has forgotten about them.

Good evening from Middlesbrough, where the smell of its remaining

chemical industry is in the air. We have parked our Referendum Road Trip

truck in front of the town hall in the heart of the town. In a moment,

I will be asking an audience of local people and politicians what

they want to hear from Labour in particular on Europe.

All this week, the Newsnight truck is travelling north to south,

from Glasgow to Middlesbrough, to Leicester, Chipping Norton

and finally on Friday, to Bognor Regis, to find out

what people really think about the EU.

Last night, we were in Glasgow and today, the Newsnight crew

took the Road Show truck across the beautiful Pennines

and into the industrial town of Middlesbrough.

Past a piece of classic engineering, the famous Transporter

Here, there is a proud industrial heritage in steel chemicals,

where people still call themselves the Smoggies,

Unemployment is well above the national average.

And this is amongst the most deprived boroughs in England.

But there's pride in this town, and they are proud, too,

of their famous sons, from the Explorer and navigator

Captain Cook, to the football visionary, Brian Clough,

And they are celebrating present-day footballing glory, too.

They have just been promoted back to the Premier League.

So in this one-time industrial heartland, has the EU been

a power for good or simply exacerbated its decline?

First, we have a small audience of voters from Middlesbrough, including

some first-time voters, with a wide variety of views. First, Ray Kelly.

You are porting for Leave. Why? To get back our democracy, our

Government and our border controls. -- you're to me. You want to stop

immigration most of all? Not to stop but to control it. We need

immigration but we need to control it and we can't control it at this

moment in time. From your point of view, are you going to vote to

re-main or leave? I think you are a Leave man. I am. I am a guy of older

values. When the EU was first made, it was about making a better world

and a better market. Those values are long gone and we have two cement

the values again. Where have we gone wrong in values? Isn't the idea of

bringing other countries into the fold very much one of a bigger

European family? You can bring in all the countries you want. We want

to bring in Algeria and places like that. I am all for immigration and

they bring so much value to the UK economy, a lot more than... Myself,

I feel that we should look at UK citizens and how they contribute to

the EU in general, and look away from the immigration. Terry, you

have another view. Mine is the NHS. I feel like if we do leave, there

will be huge detrimentally affects to the NHS. And yet, people say that

if we do leave, there will be more money to spend on it. They say it

will be put into the NHS, whereas a lot of there are -- whereas there

are a lot of other places that need to go to. Who knows? It is a big

gamble. We are also close to the art gallery here. Allister Hutton, tell

me, what does the EU do for you and your gallery? We get direct EU

funding, and not just that but collaborations with museums and

universities and cultural organisations all over Europe. Don't

you have that with America, Australia and Canada? We do, but

these are our neighbours and we are in it with them. The only way to

work is to collaborate. Isolation is from a past era. Is this the best

use of the EU money, do you think is Mike yes, because it goes into

skills, training, education, into a whole host of things that support

the culture and economy of the region. I would like to speak to

Oliver. You are a first-time voter, argue nervous? Is a bit. It is a

question of, where do you go with this? So you haven't decided? No.

What would persuade you? I think it will be a lot of business. We are

the future of the country, and everything else, and that makes us,

I feel, the most important, and I feel we haven't been targeted enough

in terms of political campaigns. What about you, where do you stand?

I am undecided. I think it would be a these -- it would be easier for

first-time voters if we had decided ourselves the pros and cons of

remaining on leaving. You only have ten days left, and you feel the

politicians are not giving you what you want to hear? Yes. Maybe you

will get answers later on. Labour grandees are out

in force this week, pushing the case for Remain,

as surveys suggest many Labour voters don't even know their party's

position on the referendum. So how disconnected is Labour

from its industrial heartland? The now-defunct Redcar steelworks

loom out of the fog. They closed for good eight months

ago, with more than 3000 workers 175 years of steel-making,

consigned to history. OK, so what we are doing

in the theory side of the lesson At Middlesbrough College's Stem

Training Centre, amongst the apprentices, a pot

of ?1.2 million has been allocated specifically to retrain people

who lost their jobs in steel. With opportunities for overtime,

wages in the steel This former electrical supervisor

at Redcar has taken a pay cut to become a trainer at the college,

although he's very grateful What happened at Redcar has

influenced his decision But you got the message

that they couldn't Yes, because of EU rules,

which were stopping them In another classroom,

a one-day course Five here lost their jobs

when the steelworks shut. In the past, they would have been

Labour through and through and might have listened to what

the party is saying How many of you are

thinking of voting In? How many of you are

thinking of voting Out? You know, we are systematically

losing industries The steel industry, the shipbuilding

industry, the fisheries. No, I don't think

it is globalisation. If traditional Labour voters are key

to Britain's continuing EU membership, Labour needs to work

a lot harder to persuade them. Middlesbrough has been Labour

for decades by the party's message Middlesbrough has been Labour

for decades but the party's message does not appear to be reaching

working-class voters. This is going to be a dry bar,

that means a bar, that looks like an adult-only bar environment

but no booze. Andy Preston is a local

philanthropist. When open, this site will offer

work and opportunities He left the Labour Party

a few years ago but is He has picked up a disconnect

between Labour and its core voters. The biggest single thing that people

are talking about is immigration. What is clear is that they don't

understand why they can't talk about it with their politicians

and why their politicians What has gone on is that people have

seen their area change, physically. It looks different and feels

different, and they have got Labour's unwillingness

and discomfort at talking about the concept of immigration

is really impacting On the 23rd of June,

I'm voting Out and the reason is, apart from the massive immigration,

I mean, we should now be taking Caring for her granddaughters takes

up Jane's every moment. The children's parents are addicts

and the kids would be in care You cut down on your bills,

electric and gas. You don't use as much,

you are frightened to use too You have just got to be

careful with your money. It is just the love you have got

for them and they need When you are struggling,

the sense that others are getting Like, for other, like,

for our own people. I know I should not say that,

but it's our own and bringing No one can get any money or anything

like that, you know, the allowances they are entitled to,

they are cutting that back as well, so they have got more money

for the other people When you speak to people

round here about the Labour Party and how Labour wants them to vote

In, are they listening, No, not at all, they are not

listening at all. Labour is doing nothing

at all for them whatsoever. They have decided that they want

to vote Out and stay out. Labour was for working class

but there's no jobs no more. There's no working class for them

so they prefer to vote Out. Just how widespread is the desire

amongst voters to leave the EU in a region which has

benefited from European money As you know, this is a table,

which was Boosbeck-designed... In the 1930s, Boosbeck was a scheme

that had unemployed Artist Adam Clarke has reinvented it

with help from Middlesbrough's Institute of Modern

Art and EU funding. The idea is to reskill and give

employment to people in the area. All here are left-leaning

and support Britain's EU membership. I don't think that leaving the EU

will do workers any favours. I think we need to be represented

at a European level as well. When people are poor,

it is very easy to point I would not say justified

but I would say Things have got harder again

recently with the cuts. Do they have an answer

to Labour's travails? I think it is almost the politics

of personality that is required. Personally, I think Jeremy Corbyn

is doing a good job. But I think traditional voters

need somebody who is, you know, in the vein

of a Nigel Farage, but with different political views

of course, who can persuade them I think what we have had

historically is that hard-working people in the past relied

on the Labour Party to look after their interests

with workers' rights, with pay, Now, people are feeling

that the Labour Party and other parties are not looking after them

in the same way. What we are seeing here is not

necessarily a desertion of the Labour Party but a bit

of a rebellion I predict that to continue,

as people nationally move away But that is the challenge Labour has

got, to re-engage with these people The question for both sides in this

referendum, can Labour do that With me now is the shadow civil

society Minister. Those sentiments from the film, I know that you think

there is a terrible sense of urgency, and you are quite critical

of the Labour leadership. Critical of the campaign so far. We really

have to get out and talk to people. Today was mixed on the doorstep, but

there is palpable anger on Teesside. We have been devastated in the last

six months, with the loss of the steelworks. That is thousands of

jobs, and not just deal workers, childminders and window cleaners.

People are angry and they are hitting out. We cannot afford for

people to cut off their nose despite their face.

But again, the idea that there have been benefits on the EU in terms of

the money but in that people don't see it in everyday lives? We are an

net beneficiary of what comes out of the EU but we have to tell Biba

that. We've got fantastic asset on Deeside, the port, the chemical

industry rely on a market in Europe. If we don't invest, we will make the

situation worse and the situation we saw this year will be industrial

self harm. I know you think London appears to be a long way away? It

does, London has got a long way away, particularly in this process.

We felt people don't understand the steel crisis and we think they don't

understand the fight. They have other report says all the jobs have

been absorbed which they haven't. London does not understand and we

need the leadership. I was delighted to see Jeremy and the labour

movement come out today and say it's about workers' rights. People are

saying and the report said, a lot of people don't know where Labour

stands? We found that on the doorstep, Labour voters who are

undecided about voting and they want to know what we think, how it

affects their lives, pay and conditions, particularly women. We

have a big job to do. What we heard in the film is that one of Labour's

big failures is being prepared to talk about immigration? I think

that's right, we have not been prepared to talk about issues like

immigration, there are issues like security, crime, anti-social

behaviour, we have to grasp and listen to what people are telling us

on the doorstep and if we stick our head in the stand, -- in the sand,

we're not in touch with people. Tom Watson came out today and made an

important statement, we have to look at free movement because people have

seen their wages depressed which was not because of free movement. You

are going to stay here and we are to talk about what you can and cannot

do on free movement but now, we are getting the latest from our

political editor, Nick Watt, who joins us from London. I gather that

the Labour leaders and big figures have been out in force today?

Yes, they have indeed been out in force and they share the concerns

that you are hearing there from Anna. What we are hearing the night

is those fears have become so great that there are senior Labour figures

in the Remain campaign who are saying to their conservative

colleagues, "We have, the Prime Minister has got to talk about

immigration because this is the issue which is in danger of meaning

that Labour voters deserve the Gabi main campaign. We understand it's

difficult for the Prime Minister to talk about, and he does not want to

talk about the net migration target but Yvette Cooper, the former Shadow

Home Secretary has said the night and has been telling her former

colleagues the Prime Minister should say he could use for example the UK

presidency of the EU next year to talk about possible modest reforms

to freedom of movement. But the message from number ten tonight is

no, we want to focus this campaign on the economy and they are so wary

of talking about immigration that they won't even talk about one of

the things Gordon Brown and Yvette Cooper has been talking about that

was in the Conservative manifesto, establishing a special fund to help

areas that are struggling under the impact of immigrants.

Service ends of this array with nine days to go but tomorrow is going to

be one of the more eventful days on the campaign? Yes, tomorrow, George

Osborne will live up to the number ten commitment to try to yank this

campaign back to the economy. He will share a platform with his

predecessor as Chancellor, Alistair Darling, and they will say that IFS

estimates suggest there will be a ?30 billion like: the public

finances if we voted to leave and the way you deal with that, they are

talking about an emergency Brexit budget, which would have ?15 billion

of tax increases, ?15 billion of spending cuts. Why are they doing

this? They want to reprise the success they believe they had in

signalling the economic risks in the Scottish independence referendum and

there was interestingly, turmoil on the markets today, a flight to

safety as the FTSE 100 went below 6000 but the first time since

February, and the second thing they want to do is to say that Vote

Leave's idea of spending an extra ?100 million a week on the NHS is a

con because there would be a big hit to the economy but Vote Leave are

saying it is nonsense and scaremongering and they say they

will outline a positive vision tomorrow of how they can take the UK

out of the EU in a step-by-step process by 2019. Thank you for

joining us. We are going to be back in

Middlesbrough for more conversation before the end of the programme but

now to Emily in Dando where the shock of the nightclub killings

continue to reverberate across the whole of the United States. -- in

Orlando. Good evening from Orlando,

a city whose tragedy has somehow turned into the backdrop for one

of the fiercest political rows of this already

extraordinary electoral race. President Obama unleashed

what felt like seven years of frustration

towards the Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump,

warming that his anti-Muslim rhetoric would drive

many young Americans Today Trump, who has

consistently called Obama soft on terrorists, suggested

obliquely the President may actually be aligned with the terrorists,

a conspiracy theory too far And what of the community

here itself? Today, surgeons

at Orlando's hospital told me they treated over1,000

victims of gun crime every year. And we heard from a survivor who

played dead to stay alive. But perhaps the most arresting

details came of the killer himself, as witnesses suggested

he might have been gay. How do you describe a man

who was angry, unstable, America has called Omar Mateen

a terrorist, a radical Islamist, a homophobe and increasingly now,

a self hater. As witnesses say he frequented gay

clubs himself over the course of several years, was he a man

so conflicted with his sexuality in a religion that did not tolerate

homosexuality, and if so, does that make America's response

to this any different? I met him one time,

at the bar, he was trying He was a homosexual

and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them

and then he would, maybe, put his arm around them

or something, and maybe try to get them to dance

a little bit or something, Others have come forward saying

the killer's profile was on Grindr He might have been casing out

victims, or he might have At the LGBT Centre in Orlando,

they're offering support and counselling to survivors,

families and friends. The director says he recognises

the picture that is emerging. It seems more leaning

towards a closeted LGBT person, who needed to take

their vengeance out on their own demons

and walked into this club To try to cleanse themselves

of their demons and take it Adam, a mental health counsellor,

says he has seen the pattern many times but says it is easier

for America to point to an external There's definitely an element of,

you know, people politicising this. But I think there is something

larger going on there. This is an LGBT issue,

this is a mental health issue, this is something that we as Orlandoans

and Americans have to figure This isn't just, there's

an outside bad guy out Certainly, the mass shooting has

exposed two presidential nominees to a sharp examination

of their political instincts Now, Hillary Clinton,

or as I call her, Crooked Hillary She refuses to even say

the words radical Islam. Americans, we don't need

conspiracy theories and pathological

self-congratulations. We need leadership, common-sense,

and concrete plans, because we are facing

a brutal enemy. By focusing on the Orlando

killer's allegiance to Isis, it has become much easier for those

on the right of American politics to talk about the need

for new immigration measures But for many Americans,

this is a pretty domestic tragedy, both more mundane and more

intractable, that toxic combination of what happens when mental health

issues meet easy access to firearms. At the Orlando hospital,

we hear powerful testimony from one I wish I could remember his face

or his name, that cop, because I want to say

I'm grateful to him. So he starts to drag me out,

across the street, to the Wendy's. I'm grateful for him but the floor

was covered in glass. So he's dragging me out

while I'm getting cut I don't feel pain but I just feel

all this blood on me, He just drops me off,

across the street, and I look over Surgeons tell a packed room

of global press they still have 27 of the shooting victims,

six in intensive care. Quick question to the surgeons,

I'm just doing the maths, over the course of your professional

lifetimes, how many victims of gunshot wounds would you estimate

that you had each treated? So you would each say

more than 10,000? Barack Obama arrives

here in Orlando on Thursday, in the midst of possibly

the craziest confection yet, intimations from Donald Trump that

America's president may even be complicit in terror activities

by Islamic extremists. This community, survivors

and victims, are desperate for all of this and all of us to go

away, but at this point in the electoral, presidential

cycle, nothing, it seems, is ever just about an

appalling tragedy itself. Joining me down the line from Los

Angeles is the founder of the Moral Courage project. Thank you for

joining us. Am I right in thinking that you describe yourself as

lesbian and Muslim without conflict? Well, without conflict, for sure. I

came out to my very devout Muslim mother many years ago. She told me,

"You are my daughter and my love for you is unconditional". So I have

certainly been blessed with a wonderful parent but in addition to

that, I will say that commune, we Muslims are taught that God is

omniscient and all-powerful. -- I will say that, you know. All knowing

and all-powerful so surely he knew when he was creating somebody like

me. Does make mistakes? Muslims would say absolutely not. So I have

been able through the love of my family and the love of God to

reconcile all that I am, rather than leader vulcanised life. I'm very

much at peace with being gay and being Muslim. -- lead a vulcanised

life. And we were hearing elements of the Orlando Keller's life, there,

suggestions he had been on gay dating apps and frequenting some of

the clubs himself over the years, that he had beaten his first wife

badly, to the point where she was removed by her parents. Does this

spell any pattern of behaviour to you? Does this sound like a man who

is a self hater? Honestly, there are so many cases of wife abuse and

domestic violence all over the world, that it would be reductionist

and irresponsible for me at least to say that yes, this guy is absolutely

a self hater, or was. But clearly, if he was scoping out potential six

partners, or potential victims, on apps like Grindr, there was

something in him that was more than just religious, it was more than

just angry. It may have been some kind of loathing instinct that

brought him to do what he did. We simply don't know. You sound as if

he were very lucky in the love of your parents and the support you had

-- you were. But many people of all will it and we'll find it very hard,

particularly -- all religions will find it very hard, particularly in

this case, as it seems, to be a practising Muslim and a homosexual.

What is the path forward there? Yes, you're right, many Muslims do find

it difficult and when I speak with Young Muslims all over the world,

one of the most common questions they ask of me is," how do I tell my

parents that I am not straight?" Some will use the word gay but that

is certainly a much wider concern within the Muslim community than

most imams and elders will want to acknowledge. The path forward is

actually cultural more than it is religious. You know, in Arab

culture, there is a tradition, a custom known as on. While it sounds

honourable, it actually is not. On refers to the reputation of the

entire family. If somebody is accused of trying is Chris in moral

codes, not only -- of transgressing moral codes, not only have you

shamed yourself according to this cost of honour, you have change your

entire family. Imagine the pressure that puts on young Muslims to shut

up and conform. The path forward is to redefine honour, to meet

individual dignity, individual integrity, and wholeness, rather

than any one of us being the property of our families. So do you

believe there is a clash of civilisations between these two?

Emily, I don't believe that. Here I sit before you, live, as someone who

has, you rightly pointed out, is completely reconciled as both gay

and Muslim. I was born in Africa. Very different values than the

country in which I grew up, which is Canada. It is that chlorella is and

that freedom that allowed me to ask many, many questions, both of myself

and of others. And thank God for those freedoms. Because that is what

allowed me to understand that you don't have to be one or the other,

that God has created us complicated, and any god that is majestic will

not be manufacturing widgets, he will be creating truly divine

creatures. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you joining us

tonight. Even though it feels like some of

the politics is overtaking the narrative, this is a community that

is asking many questions, trying to understand where the Leeds lead, if

you like, whether it is about mental health issues in the community,

whether it is about how a man who has been checked out by the FBI

three times can still go out and buy a gun. This is a community that,

essentially, needs to be left in peace.

When Labour politicians talk about it, they invariably

When Labour politicians don't talk about it,

they arguably end up in even more trouble.

But they have to find a trouble-free way to talk about immigration now,

with most of the data describing it as the engine driving traditional

supporters into the arms of the Leave campaign.

The problem is, what are they going to say?

Joining me now is Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn.

We must be again by calibrating using the context of the Shadow

Cabinet. You know that toe... Tom Watson has called for a look at free

movement. On the campaign trail in tooting, Jeremy Corbyn has said that

free movement of workers is intrinsic to the European Union,

there has to be free movement of people, and that is what we have to

defend because it is intrinsic to the helping. Back of a fag packet

calculation, Mr Watson's edition is supported by Ed balls, Andy Burnham,

and we know that Jeremy Corbyn's position is different. Who are you

closest to? Yellow might we heard in the film the people that you were

speaking to. There is pressure on some communities, and Redcar is

suffering because of the closure of the steelworks, and there are things

that we can do. For example, when it comes to new member states possibly

joining the EU, we have complete control over that because we can

determine the terms on which they join because each member state has a

veto on that. But we're not going to help deal with any of those

pressures that people feel in communities up and down the country.

I'm afraid, the notion that we don't talk about immigration, I talk about

it a great deal to my constituents, travelling around the country, and I

talked about it in a speech that I made yesterday. Of course, we talk

about it, but we will not deal with the problem by damaging our economy,

particularly in the north-east, where 58% of exports go to the EU.

I am interested in the Labour versus labour position of Mr Corbyn appears

to have said this evening that the free movement of people within the

EU is sacrosanct. Mr Watson appears to be suggesting that a future

Labour Government or Conservative Government would have to have it up

for grabs, it would have to be negotiable. What is your personal

position? My position is that, yes indeed, the current set up in the EU

is that free movement is part the deal, both into Britain, and 1.2

million Brits who exercise their rights of free movement elsewhere.

Of course, it is right to have a debate will stop what you are

reporting on is, there is a debate taking place. Between the leader and

deputy leader of the Labour Party. It is the most important political

decision in a generation and you are having a debate about what your

position is. Yellow might we are not having a debate about what our

position is. Today, you saw the Labour family come together at

Congress house, the Shadow Cabinet, members of the NEC, trade union

leaders, all saying with one voice, the right thing for Britain, for

workers, for jobs, investment and growth, is to remain in the EU. You

can't, on one hand, say that Labour isn't listening to people on the

doorstep. If we are having a debate about what the right thing to do is

going forward, hopefully after Britain has voted to remain, you

would say that was a good thing, wouldn't you?

Tom Watson was stating that the current rules on freedom of movement

should be reviewed. Jeremy Corbyn appears to be insisting that they

should not. I will have to lick my finger and see which way the wind is

blowing - you seem to be closer to Corbyn. I said that we should look

at how the system works. I have already said to you that when it

comes to new member states, which is an area where we do have control, it

would be within our rights to say, for new member states, yes, you can

join the single market, which is important to jobs, but we will be

term and how free movement applies to those countries. I think that

would be a sensible thing to do, and we have the ability do it, because

every member state has a veto. Have you just come up with a third by? I

don't know about that! Look, the people are talking about it, it is a

big issue in the referendum, so it is right and proper that we should

talk about it, too. But that does not get away from the most important

point, which is that weakening our economy - and it is unusual to get

most economists do agree that the economy will be hit when we leave.

Every study confirms it. Warnings from the Governor of the Bank of

England and the IMF. For all of them to say that we will have a weaker

and less prosperous economy if we leave, how will that help us deal

with the pressures we heard about in the film, on housing, the NHS and

schools? And the north-east, of course, there has been changing the

industrial make-up of that part of the country, as there has been

elsewhere, but what else is going on there, and where is the most

productive car plant in the whole of Europe? Millions have been spent on

a new train manufacturing plant. Importantly, it is because we are

part of the largest single market in the world. Leaving that and creating

uncertainty about future trading relationships does nothing to

address the concerns that people have. In fact, it makes it worse. It

is all about numbers. There are the currency numbers, the money numbers,

growing larger every day, the amount that we have lost on the market, the

amount we might lose in the future, versus the number of people who

might come here in the event of such and such a country joining. Are you

saying to the people we saw in the film tonight, there is not a great

deal that we can do about your concerns regarding immigration, but

I promise you will be even worse off if we leave? Is that the message, or

does the Labour Party have any line on telling people why the reality of

immigration is different and better than their perception? It is a

complex issue, but I will give an example. The NHS depends, in part,

on doctors and nurses from the EU and other parts of the world who

have come to bring their skills. One in five care workers come from

outside the United Kingdom. EU migrants in the last 15 years have

contributed ?20 billion more to the public finances than they have

received in any form of benefits. What is it being spent on? Paying

for schools, hospitals and other public services. The Government

could establish a migration impact fund. It would be a good idea, such

a good idea that the last Labour Government had one. David Cameron

scrapped it when he came to power. That would provide additional

financial assistance to areas where there are additional pressures

because of the nature of migration. If you go to Boston, and you did a

programme from their two three weeks ago, those people are picking the

vegetables and keeping the industry growing, but it creates pressures in

Boston itself. Wouldn't it be sensible to have a migration impact

on? It is something David Cameron could do. It is a question of a

Conservative Government that is not prepared to act. Yvette Cooper has

been privately suggesting rather robustly that we need to start

debating immigration in the Labour Party. It is the job of all

politicians to listen to respond to what the public is saying. At the

same time, our responsibility, particularly with nine days to go,

is to to people, why, in our case, the labour movement is united. And

it is important that all people understand that the Labour family is

united in saying that it is in our economic interest, for jobs,

investment, growth, security and our influence in the world, James. The

world is changing, and it won't go back to where it was before. Written

walking away will give us less influence in the world. If you're

going to tackle migration, refugees, conflict, climate change, you have

to do that by working with your neighbours. -- Britain walking away.

Our relationship with our continental neighbours is really

important to being able to influence what happens in the world,

particularly for our children and grandchildren. You mentioned the

polls, and they do show support among Labour posters. It is

swinging. More people are moving into the Leave rather than the

Remain camp will stop how has your party got things so wrong so far?

Yellow might the British people, in the end, will make the decision

about whether we will remain or leave. It is a responsibility every

single one of us has. There are people who have not yet made up

their mind, and I do think that both the benefits that Europe has brought

in terms of jobs, investment and growth, and regions like the

north-east, countries like Wales, they understand instinctively the

importance of the support that comes from Europe and the opportunities

that being part of this huge single market provides. I think a lot of

people who have not yet made up their mind may say at the end of the

day, I don't like this that about the EU. This is not a referendum on

whether we love of thing about Europe. It is about whether we stay

on leave. And I think a lot of people will say, you know what, I

don't think this is the right step to take, because we are literally

better together in an uncertain world by working in partnership with

others. That is what, in the end, is the important thing about remaining

in the EU. The public will decide. They will.

Thank you, Hilary Benn. We will continue our conversation with

Hilary Benn on our Facebook page right after Newsnight comes off

there. He will take questions lie from our green room. -- live from

our greenroom. Kirsty, I wonder whether a regional impact fund could

affect things in the area where you are.

That remains to be seen. We are joint by the shadow civil society

Minister, and a former steelworker who supports Ukip and who voted in

1975 to be out of the EU. First of all, and, not only is there a device

between Remain in the Conservatives and Labour Party, but there are now

seems to be a divide in labour about whether re-movement is sacrosanct.

Where do you stand? It is important that Tom brought this to the surface

because a ghost of the art of the issues. In this area, I have spoken

to many people have been affected in terms of wages being pushed down. We

need to talk about it and have solutions. There is nothing you can

do on free movement itself within the countries that exist within the

EU at the moment. It is all very well talking about new countries,

but you can't do anything. You can have these discussions when you are

at the table. In our manifesto last year, we wanted to stop companies

from undercutting wages here. We have to have a thoughtful process to

deliver this, and we have to look at practical solutions, not just bury

our heads. Frank you worked in the steel industry all your life, and

now you're having to take other jobs because the steel industry is

disappearing. You have been speaking to workers who have their own

concerns. I am speaking to a lot of union men from different walks of

life. Only the other day, I had a chap come to my house. He was

worried that there might be a shutdown at ICI. The chemicals

company. Yes, across from where I live. He was a welder, a skilled

man. When I got the details from another union chap, there was

actually 70% foreign labour on that site. Now, what others might say to

you is, your welder friend and others could go and work in mainland

Europe. I don't think a lot of them... A lot of them had been there

before. The chap I spoke to, he was working in Holland for a time. But

like everywhere else, you get a bit homesick, so you come back, and you

expect to find work in your own area. With the loss of steel, the

chemical industry has been decimated through Europe, so there is less and

less work. Is your allegiance to Ukip to do with the economy or to do

with the issue of immigration? Is none, really. It started when Tony

Blair went into power. That was when the Labour Party didn't exist any

more. Right. So you were a Labour man up until then? I was. And, you

will not fix this in nine days. It is becoming a big divide, and it

seeks -- and it seems extraordinary to me that political leaders are

changing the script so close to a referendum. It sounds as if people

are being expedient in order to change the goat, without any ability

to deliver change. It is important to talk about the number one issue

on the doorstep. It is not enough to say we are listening but we don't

have solutions. You spoke to Hilary Benn today and you heard him there -

years at odds with Tom Watson's view. We have to have the

discussion, but there is a range of views in the political parties and

on the doorstep. We have to be in Europe to get companies to come and

invest here. We can talk about the practicalities and how to protect

jobs once we are at the table. You think it is on a knife edge? Yes.

And you, too? Thank you for joining us tonight. That is all we have time

for tonight.