13/06/2016 Newsnight


Newsnight is live in Orlando, as the world reacts, and in Scotland, which might be pivotal to the referendum vote.

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Across the western world shock at the murder of 49 people at the Pulse


club in Orlando. In London vigils are being held for the dead and the


wounded but how did one man killed so many? Tonight the key figures in


American politics are reacting. We cannot continue to allow


thousands upon thousands of people to pour into our country,


many of whom have the same thought And with ten days to go to the key


decision, drug macro is on the road. I am about as far away from London


as you can be where local figures have their own views. We have


brought our very own referendum road trip to Glasgow to you the


passionate arguments driving the debate as it becomes increasingly


clear that the Scottish vote may be pivotal.


Good evening from Orlando, a city rocked to its core by the tragedy


that left 49 dead and 53 injured in the Pulse club behind me, a city


once synonymous with Disney World has been shattered by reality at its


most devastating and painful, tonight new details have emerged as


to how the gunman called 9/11 from the bottom of the club and pledged


allegiance to the leader of Isis. He was known to the FBI, yet it seems


able to buy firearms freely. President Obama says there is no


evidence that the gunman was directed by so-called Islamic State


but Donald Trump, this afternoon, said that if elected he would


suspend immigration from areas of the world with a proven history of


terrorism against the United States or their allies. We'll get into the


politics in a minute. Gabriel Gatehouse joins me now.


There was of course a huge element of, phobia in the choice of this


vibrant gay nightclub in downtown Orlando. The question, to what


extent was it terror or as you mentioned in your introduction


directed by the group calling itself Islamic State. We know of the claim


of membership in the 911 call, the question is, how much was it


directed, the FBI director today says he believes he was almost


certainly home - radicalised, here in the United States. He was born in


the United States. These are some other things still being questioned.


The other details we have had coming out today in forensics detail is


what actually happened inside the club on the night itself. You will


see some of pictures in the report that is just coming up you will find


distressing. It is Latino night at Pulse,


a buzzing gay nightclub in downtown By closing time, the dance


floor was nearly full. At two minutes past 2am, Omar Mateen


starts shooting into the crowd. An off-duty policeman working at the


club exchanges fire with the gunman. Eddie Justice texts his mother from


a bathroom inside the club. Mummy, I love you. In club, they shooting. At


nine minutes past 2am the club posts on its Facebook page, everyone get


out of Pulse club and keep running. Mr Garcia, a former DJ at the club,


was out with a group of friends including Mercedes Florez. Once we


knew this was real, everyone ducked to the floor. He was right next to


me. I had blood all over my arms. It was actually from him. The shooting


just continued and continued. As soon as it stopped, I kind of hurt


him reloading, I got up and run to one of the back doors. Amanda


records one final video on Snapchat. GUNFIRE


She and her best friend, Mercedes, later confirmed dead. Now, Omar


Mateen, armed with an assault rifle and handgun, begins to take


hostages. He calls 911, pleading allegiance to Islamic State and


makes a reference to the Boston Marathon bombings. 2:39am, still in


the bathroom, Eddie Justice sends another message to his mother. His


coming, I'm going to die. He too has since been confirmed as one of the


dead. At five-minute spot 5am police and SWAT team members moving. They


forced their way into the club with explosives and a battering ram. In


11 of his as exchange gunfire with the shooter, 30 hostages rescued.


5:48am, Orlando police to eat, we can confirm this as a mass casualty


situation. -- Orlando police tweet. At 5:53am Lees confirmed that the


shooter, Omar Mateen, is dead. -- police confirm this. 7am. As the


authorities begin to search for answers, investigators inside the


club the other mobile phones of victims ringing as family members


desperate for news try to contact them. Police say is a specialist


devices were found on the gunman and in his car. The Florida Department


of Law enforcement special agent in charge calls the shooting an act of


terrorism. Any time that we have potentially dozens of victims in any


of our communities, I think we can qualify that as a terrorist


activity. At 10:30am Law enforcement officials confirm that 49 people


including the gunman are dead and 53 are injured. As America morning,


Orlando adds its name to a growing rest, San Bernardino, Charleston,


Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, Columbine and more. But the mid and it at the


Pulse club sets itself apart in scale and context -- but the murder


unleashed there. Families and friends come to terms their personal


lost, the deadliest shooting in this country's modern history has set of


an explosive charge right across America's most divisive political


fault lines. Now known as the biggest single mass shooting in


modern American history, you heard from Gabriel Gatehouse.


I'm joined by Pedro Julio Serrano, a gay rights activist and the first


openly LGBT person to run for elective office in Puerto Rico.


Now this is relevant, particularly, Pedro, because we know that nearly


half of the people killed in the tragedy were of Puerto Rican


descent. This must feel like a sore from all sides. Yes, in the 20 years


I've been an activist I've never felt so much sorrow and so much


pain. I knew some of the victims, I'm not family to them so I come and


even imagine what they are going through. It's devastating. Some of


them came to Orlando looking for a better life echoes of the crisis in


Puerto Rico, they were fleeing the crisis that we have, and to be here


in the hands of hate, it's uncomfortable. You had friends in


the club? It could have been me in that club because I have been there,


I am gay and buttery can, it comes close to me, I've had rifles similar


to the one that could have ended my life, because they told me, we are


going to kill you, fag and, we are going to terminate your life, and


fortunately I fled and I'm alive but those 49 lives will never be again.


It is a horrible tragedy. And it comes from every side. It is because


they are that you know, they are LGBT, it is because of radical


Islam, all of these things compounded into one another -- they


are Puerto Rico. Sometimes I don't even have words. How do you find


America's and the world's response to what has happened here? There is


a lot of solidarity of course. I think that we will become a better


society because of this but we cannot forget that this doesn't


happen in a vacuum. We have leaders like Donald Trump and other


religious and political leaders who are fundamentalists and have been


inciting violence against the LGBT community for too long. And they are


as responsible as the killer for this tragedy because when they


inside violent against us they are giving permission to individuals


like this can lead to attack us. I wonder how you interpreted some of


the words from Donald Trump today? He sounded as if he was appealing to


the gay vote, talking about the importance of the LGBT community,


setting that very much a part of the minority to be protected. Did you


feel reassured by that? I wish I could say on air what I really


think! I'm just going to leave it out, hate cannot be combated with


hate. They cannot fight hate with hate. We are not going to let this


event is divided us. This is not a war against Islam. Islam is a


religion of peace, and we have Muslim friends and people that we


hold dear. And we are not going to let Donald Trump divide us. This is


not going to be about a fight between Islam and the LGBT


community. It's not a fight between Muslims and LGBT people. I think the


answer to all of this love. Love well Trump, and I use the word Trump


carefully, levelled from hate. We need to stop this. America needs to


open its eyes because what the world is seeing is that they are letting


this product of the tea party and all these radical right-wingers be


the voice of America in this moment and they need to stop this. Pedro


Julio Serrano, thank you, some heartfelt language there, you will


fully understand the emotion that is in the city and the LGBT community


tonight. This perfect storm of American crises, a sense of free gun


laws and the possibility of Islamic radicalisation and a hate crime all


in this one appalling crime. Gabriel Gatehouse


is back with me now. It is not surprisingly the possibly,


that, five months from an election, this has already got incredibly and


heated to be political. This tragedy unites two of the most divisive


issues in American politics. Number one gun control, number two Islamic


terrorism. Often with these shootings which are about gun


control and it dies away. No one needs reminding that we are in an


election year. If you put these issues together it's not surprising


that the candidates have talked about this. Remember Donald Trump in


the aftermath of the Paris shootings last November. He came out with this


statement calling for a temporary ban on the entry of Muslims into the


America. A statement that became notorious in some quarters and was


applauded and others. In the aftermath of this shooting he has


not held back. We can hear some of what he said now.


I will suspend immigration from areas of the world


where there is a proven history of terrorism against


the United States, Europe or our allies, until we fully


We cannot continue to allow thousands upon thousands of people


to pour into our country, many of whom have the same thought


Many of the principles of radical Islam are incompatible with Western


That was Donald Trump, we also heard from the Democratic candidate,


Hillary Clinton, what did she say? The administration has for some


days, in the run-up to this, been talking about what they say is a


crazy situation where they can put American citizens on a no-fly list


but cannot buy them from buying the kind of assault weapons that caused


this carnage. So knows a prize that when Hillary Clinton spoke she


emphasised that aspect of gun-control -- no surprise that when


she spoke she emphasised that aspect of gun-control.


Sadly, we do not have that clip. Produce a body said? Hillary Clinton


basically said we must look at the means by which these attacks are


carried out it is difficult to stop every single home grown, if that is


the case, radicalised person from wanting to carry out an attack.


Hillary Clinton was placing the emphasis on the material, the guns,


that carry out these attacks. This election year is not like previous


election years. Not like President Obama this is Mitt Romney or even


versus John McCain. This puts a candidate from the establishment


against a candidate who portrays himself as wanting to overturn the


establishment. It is an incredibly feeble atmosphere here and events


like this can push things off course. President Obama said the


country was united in grief and in resolve. That may be so but very


divided in the answers to this problem thank you. We can speak now


to one of Durham Trump's foreign policy advisers, Waled Phares. Thank


you for joining us. I wonder if you can clarify some of


the comments from Donald Trump. He said he would suspend immigration


from all countries with a proven history of terrorism against America


or its allies. What does that entailed? That basically is a


transformation of his initial statement made last year, 2015,


about the so-called ban on Muslims. Now he is narrowing it to the


countries where there have been jihadis. That is conditioned, if


he's elected he's going to meet with the heads of agencies, leaders in


Congress and in the Arab world to figure out how to determine who is a


Jihadist and who isn't so he can apply this. He has said that he will


suspend when he will have the capacity to make that


differentiation between Jihadist and not. Of course many will say that it


completely misses the point of a murderer, someone guilty of the


deaths of 49 and wounding 53 others, who was born in New York and who is


a Native American. Oh, absolutely, there are many jihadists in America,


Great Britain, as you know, Belgium, France, who were born in those


countries and had a passport. It isn't about being foreign and being


non-foreign, it is about being a member of Salafi jihad is. The


French and the Egyptians know it isn't about having a passport -- you


had is. If you support the ideology of the movement, that should be


addressed. -- jihadism. Then you will understand that the immigration


question does not come into it as these people are in your country


already. That is true, that is why Mr Trump is saying that firstly we


must stop further penetration. He isn't saying that everybody coming


to the United States, he was clear, we are a country of immigrants, we


bring in immigrants but now the jihadists are using that to come in,


so we are going to slow the flow, shut it down until we Figueroa at


how we can make the distinction and then everybody who is a lawful


immigrant will be welcomed -- until we figure out. There will be many


watching I'm guessing who will say, each politician finds their own


narrative to this and for Donald Trump, he just wants to reinforce


the anti-Muslim narrative so he is making it all about anti-Muslim


immigration. It is divisive and isn't going to solve any problems.


He could be looking at gun crime, for example. Look, the agenda of


those opposing Mr Trump, the Democratic party, the Obama


administration, and of course the Muslim brotherhood and others are


opposing him, they accuse him of being Islamophobic. There is nothing


in his history, no books or articles, that show this. His


companies have all kinds of Woolwich as groups and in his speech he said


that he would work with countries such as the UAE, Egypt, Jordan and


others. There is nothing Islamophobic about it, it is about


national security. So do you think this is all just a petition to win


an American vote from an Islamophobia within his voter base,


then? He is basically attacking on the ground of Islamophobia but he


has clarified it is nothing about that, it is about finding jihadists.


In the Arab world, they called them by their names, why is it that the


Obama administration and Hillary Clinton are not using this


terminology? It is the political season and he is responding, no


doubt about it. Thank you for joining us. It seems extraordinary,


doesn't it, that's just a few days ago, this state and indeed the whole


of America was celebrating the anniversary, a year of gay marriage.


It seemed as if for many in the LGBT community this was a place that was


becoming freer, more open and accepting of its LGBT community. But


an act like this goes straight to the heart of terror and it is up to


America to figure out what kind of place it wants to be. Over to you,


Evan. Well, not withstanding events


in the US, the referendum campaign here in the UK has been


intensifying, immigration But with ten days to go


now, Newsnight is out We don't have a battle bus,


but our Newsnight truck helpfully transforms into instant studio,


from which we'll be getting fresh perspectives, we'll be asking


you questions and debating They say all politics is local


and we'll be stopping in a diverse selection of localities,


from the industrial hub of Middlesbrough, to the football


mad City of Leicester, to the postcard pretty market


town of Chipping Norton. We'll end up in the southern seaside


resort of Bognor Regis on Friday. I've come to the Outer Hebrides,


to the Isle of Lewis. Many say Brussels is remote,


too distance to Many say Brussels is remote,


too distant to connect to our needs. Nowhere in the country can say that


with more conviction Further geographically


from the heart of the EU In our last Europe referendum,


the Western Isles were one of only Unfortunately it's a little


expensive to get the truck here, so I hopped over to Stornoway


by plane and have left it We'll join Kirsty a little later


for that Glasgow perspective. But one big issue in this


campaign is distinctiveness. Everywhere in Europe,


everywhere in the world, And many feel that membership


of a big, sprawling EU Well, there are not many places


in the UK or the EU that are as truly distinctive


as the Isle of Lewis. The top left-hand corner of Britain,


a beautiful location. It scores unusually high


on religious observance; certainly don't come here for shopping


on the Sunday sabbath. It's low on population density


and diversity; and it is hideously light at this time


of year and night. So is Brussels a friend or foe,


to an island like this? John Sweeney has been here,


sounding out local opinion. You're listening to Annie on Isles


FM and she is excellent. We certainly are, it is 8.34


and a half, I'm very pleased to welcome into the studio


from Newsnight, John Sweeney. Outer Hebrides, please,


let's get this right. You've come up to do a piece


about the EU referendum What's fascinating about this place


is that there is very little little inward immigration,


which is a big issue and in England and the rest of


Britain. Here, you can look at the economic


argument pretty purely, in a way, As well as the fact that it is one


of the most beautiful places MUSIC: "I'm Gonna Be (500 Miles) -


The Proclaimers referendum, the Isle of Lewis


was one of only two places So, 40 years on, will the most


north-westerly community If you seek the beauty


of the European Union, Scalpaigh Bridge, a poem


in steel and concrete. Cost, 6 million quid,


more than half of it paid Proof, if proof were needed,


say Remain, that the European Union If we get out of the European Union,


we have control over If we want to build


a bridge, we can. This whiskey distillery is not even


a year old. Its setup costs were part funded


by the EU and for that, seen over the last 20,


30 years has had the European badge on it, saying


it is it is part-funded. So in the simplest terms,


it has provided funding, We used to have single-track


roads all over the place. You might notice if you drove


from Stornoway today, Every piece of that road has got


European funding in it. We have to produce a very,


very high quality product here and charge a good price for it


to make sure that we can get it to market, get it to people


with a profit margin. Europe is obviously going to be


a huge market for us because it's close, so the logistics


are easier to deal with. But now to the most famous


export of these islands. Harris Tweed, it's worn by everyone


from Vivienne Westwood And every inch of it


comes through here. So this is wet wool,


which has a distinctive smell that No, no, it's just a very


distinctive smell! At Harris Tweed Hebrides we are very


much for remaining part of Europe. We depend very heavily on trading


with our European partners, trading with different


countries in Europe, France, Germany and Italy


in particular and we find that These are all markets we are looking


to grow and expand the coming years. It is nine o'clock and


the catch is being landed. Do you think if we pull out


of Europe tomorrow they are going We have a massive Spanish and French


fleet fishing off the west Coast of Scotland but we have a very


limited quota for white fish. But they can fish UK water,


on our doorstep, but we can't. The Common Fisheries Policy just


hasn't worked in the UK as a whole. Kipper fillets, we have


smoked mackerels. Some of Ross's fish


will end up here, in This is the old kiln, this was one


of the original kippering kilns. Kippers used to be loaded


from the top down with ladders This is what we use


for our own salmon. Our own smoked salmon


is done in here. As you can see, the walls


are covered in a thick layer of tar. The EU is a vast, vampiric


bureaucracy feeding off itself I defy you to go out


of here and find anybody who can tell you the distinction


between the European Council, the Council of Europe,


the European Parliament, In '75, this part of


the world voted to leave. It will do, most of the customers


who come into our The Outer Hebrides was Labour


and is now SNP and both How the vote will pan out,


no one knows for sure. Excuse me, sir, please


don't swim away. Well, let's get a little


more of the debate here. I'm with Mary Anne McIver, who runs


a tourist business in Stornaway. And Robert MacInnes,


who has a building firm. Thank you for joining us. You are


leaning towards out, I think, Robert. Why is that? Before we


joined the EU, the harbour was full of local fishing boats and now there


are next to none. The French, the Spanish, the Dutch, they are allowed


to come into Scotland, catch twice the quota we are allowed, from day


one. If we leave, is the fishing industry going to come back, do you


think? It will never come back to where it was, they've cleaned it


out. You are leaning, you are not quite as firm as Robert. What would


make you want to stay? I've been involved into arisen for the last 30


years and I've seen huge investment in infrastructure, training and


quality standards, marketing, everything has benefited from


Europe. At the airport we can see a plaque saying that the airport was


paid for party with funds from Europe. What do you make of that,


Robert? If we didn't give the money to Brussels in the first place and


the UK Government directly gave it to the tourist industry or directly


to the farmers in Britain and directly to the fisher in Britain,


there would be more -- to the fishermen. Maryanne, who do you


think is more in touch and who is going to be looking after the


western isles more, Brussels or London? I'd have to say London,


absolutely, certainly in Scotland we'd have to say Edinburgh. We are


looking out for our own people, who stand up for us. I think we have


lost a bit of that through Europe, through the kind of governance in


many respects. That's why you are still wavering? Yes, I'm not sure


and to be honest it will be on the day that I decide. One reason why so


many people in Scotland I think what to vote to remain is that perhaps


they see it as a counterbalance to the power of London. You are a


supporter of the SNP, so you don't want to be dominated by the English,


I think that's obvious. You don't see Brussels as balancing power in


London? No, it is even further away that the money is being sent, the UK


Government send it to Brussels, they send ?100 and get ?70 back. We are


supposed to be grateful. The debate here is a bit distinctive, fishing


played a big part in the decision, the vote to come out last time. What


about immigration? If you watch the news and look at the debate in


England, it is full of immigration. Is that playing here at all? Not at


all. We've got a few people coming from the Eastern bloc who have come


here and they are very welcome, they are integrated and they are a


necessary part of what we do. Especially in the tourism industry,


they are necessary to do the jobs, they have children who go to school.


I have seen little evidence of any Eastern European migration. There


are Polish people here? Have implied four polish people, great workers,


work hard, pay their taxes. I'd certainly welcome more. There are


fish factories here totally run by Latvians... When you watch the way


the argument is going, how connected is it to the issues here? To be


honest, for people like me, Joe Published, we've had so much


politics in the last few years, with the referendum, we are bombarded


with Leave or State, or whatever so we are quite distrustful of what we


are hearing, what is being reported. That is why people are not sure


which way to vote. Thank you both very much.


I've chatted to people asking them to predict the result.


And I've had entirely contradictory answers.


How about in other parts of Scotland though?


Kirsty is with the Newsnight dormobile, in Glasgow.


of Kelvingrove Gallery, which has suitably


European connections, built in the Spanish Baroque style


for the Glasgow International exhibition in 1901.


The arguments in the debate broadly in Scotland are over


the economic impact of the EU, but migration is not the issue


We'll be talking about that in a moment with the psephologist


extraordinaire Professor John Curtice, but first let's go


to our political editor, Nick Watt, who has learned about a possible


News that the Solder has formally backed Brexit. A surprise? Not


really, it has not been a great friend of the European union over


the years. Remember that headline Up Yours Delors. The newspaper takes


pride in reflecting the ideas of swing voters and is relentlessly


political because it homes in on the argument giving sleepless nights in


three straight which is that the riskiest option is to stay in and


those won't be helped by a YouGov poll in the times tonight which


suggests that Leave is seven point head. Another set of figures is


causing concern, the suggestion that support among Labour voters is


falling. This is where the PM has seceded the campaign for Remain to


Labour at the moment. You saw Gordon Brown campaigning although there are


divisions inside the Labour Party. Many are concerned that Jeremy


Corbyn 's celebration of immigration is not helping the blue-collar


natural Labour voters who identify with the Vote Leave warnings on


immigration. The Shadow ministers are careful what they say yet Ed


Balls and Yvette Cooper and former Cabinet members were able to come


out and say that if we remained in the EU we could have controls on


immigration. We could use the UK presidency of the EU next year to


persuade Jenkin countries to perhaps but in border controls. We will be


seeing the Prime Minister a game, the Chancellor will make a big


speech at Mansion house on Thursday night on economic risks with Mark


Carney, the governor of the Bank of England, and on Friday, the big day,


Christine Lagarde, managing director of the IMF will against big about


what Brexit could mean for the economy. That is because Downing


Street firmly believes that the referendum will be won on the


economy. The lesson they took from the Scottish referendum was that


Project Fear did win the referendum. It wasn't a pledge of further


devolutionary powers to Hollywood, it was Project Fear, the economic


risk and that is the territory that they want to get back onto. Nick,


thank you. What is the latest position in the


polls? The evidence is beginning to Camilla and that Leave has made


progress. One poll shows a 3-point swing, and mother of four point


swing. If we look at all ten opinion polls done over the Internet, since


the government has no longer had access to the civil service machine


and has dominated headlines by producing paper after paper warning


us of the allegedly dire consequences of leaving the EU,


since then the opinion polls done over the Internet have on average


per delivered to's at 51.5. Before that those polls have always said it


was 50-50, and even split. Those polls are still on average better


for Remain but in the last couple of weeks including one today we had


telephone polls putting Leave head. And on average in those polls only


52% support Remain. This referendum is looking much closer than ten days


ago. What is the split Nationwide? The truth is that Scotland is


certain to Remain although the polls here have given Remain two thirds of


the vote and Leave only one third of the vote. Equally in Northern


Ireland, it looks as if there will be a 60-40 split in favour of


remaining. It's must undoubtedly the case whereas in England and in Wales


Leave are ahead. Might it be that Scotland pulls England in? If we are


looking at a situation where we may get only 51% support for Remain, in


that event, Scotland and Northern Ireland will have been pivotal in


keeping the UK inside the European Union. Nick mentioned that speech by


Gordon Brown. an audience of university students


and it was interesting to note that his closing pitch to them


stressed his view of Britain's What sort of message would we send


to the world on June 23, if we, Britain, who consider ourselves one


of the most internationally-minded countries of the world,


who consider ourselves to be outward looking, engaged, decided to walk


away from our nearest neighbours? This is not the Britain I know,


this is not the Britain I believe in, this is not the Britain


we should aspire to be. We should be a leader in Europe


and not leaving it, and that's But could Scotland


keep the UK in the EU? With the prospect that


Nicola Sturgeon could But that would reduce


the likelihood of another Scottish referendum, which a


Brexit might trigger. To discuss this I'm joined


by Glasgow multimillionaire businessman John Boyle, who is


leading a one-man charge to leave, the SNP's Alisdair Allan,


and the writer Denise Mina. Good evening. First, Alisdair,


hasn't David Cameron sort of been using the SNP to say, basically, if


you vote to Leave will have another referendum and that could mean a


split in the UK. You could be called David Cameron's poodle, doing his


work for him. I think that's a far-fetched reading of the


situation. We face a simple choice next week about whether we want to


be in the EU. That is the question that will be on the ballot paper.


It's no secret that I want Scottish independent, so does the Scottish


Government, yet that is not what we are being asked. It could be like


Project Fear, he says that if we vote to Remain less chance of


independence. I don't think people see it in those terms, people are


starting to see it as the campaign gets tighter, see what's happening,


people are beginning to think of the positive case for being in Europe.


And also thinking about what is the prospect that Leave site offers as


to how we coexist and trade with the rest of Europe in future? John, a


lot of what was said in that film will be no deal. You have businesses


all over the UK, undoubtedly -- it will be known to you. That


distillery has been open for your... The fact is that the one thing


becoming increasingly clear is that this nonsense that if we vote to


Leave, Europe somehow will not trade with us. It's nonsense. We run a


trade deficit with Europe of ?9 billion a month. We give them ?9


billion... There's a huge deficit. The idea that the French, when we


put in ?1.3 billion of their wine -- that we import that, would tax us


when we export ?480 million of whiskey, it's absolute nonsense. Sir


James Dyson at this weekend highlighted this. I think people are


becoming increasingly susceptible to the fact that the economic argument


survey does not stand up. Denise. Ray mac and John, they are looking


at a broader spreadsheet, looking at trade with Britain, they get this


much profit from it. They also looking at trade jeopardised with


other European countries. If Europe fractures they will have to


negotiate tariffs and deal with all those other countries so... Why


would Europe commit economic suicide by imposing tariffs on us but not


reasonable when they sell more to us than we do to them? Because they are


looking at the value of having the European Community. It is


interesting that your passion is not matched by what we're hearing from


Leave in Scotland, they have been muted, to do regret that? It has


been rated, there's a possibility of election fatigue Scotland. I think


John Curtis was right, Scotland will undoubtedly vote, not as I think


because I think a lot of people in Scotland will vote Remain because


they fear the prospect of another referendum, and they are now having


second thoughts because there was another referendum, bring it on,


we'd win even more convincingly. Let's look at the question of


migration. Is it not true that overall migration is the same


roughly as it is in England but it is fair to say that we don't have


the concentrated areas in Scotland as they do in England and that's the


problem. People become ghettoised. It's a sign that people are not made


welcome and don't feel safe in disparate communities. But I think


people do feel safe here. People from other countries have made a


huge contribution to Scotland culturally and economically. It's


important to say that we are talking in Scotland about communities from


across the EU whose future will be very uncertain if we're not part of.


Not only that, it is a two-way street because there are plenty of


British people living in countries in Europe whose future would be


equally... Earlier in this campaign we went to Boston, Lincolnshire,


where 10% of the population from Eastern Europe. If that happened in


a town like Stirling it would feel different. People who come here from


Europe, coming to make their home in Scotland and big us that complement


our making a net contribution economically and culturally to


Scotland. They are less likely to be claiming benefits than anyone, more


likely to be claiming tax. I think it is unfortunate that elements of


the Leave campaign have chosen to make this an unpleasant debate about


migration. This is exactly where Remain have gone wrong. They have


consistently, the Prime Minister and particularly the Labour Party,


refused to discuss immigration. I would concede wholeheartedly it is


less of an issue in Scotland than in England but when you have 330,000


people coming from the EU into the city the size of Coventry, no matter


what benefits there may be, the pressure that it puts on schools and


the NHS is... It is nonsense to suggest that we can sweep that under


the carpet. It has not been swept under the carpet. The point is


leaving the EU will not necessarily resolve migration. Control our own


borders, of course it will. It won't make that much difference! The world


is fundamentally changing. The coming philosophical question of the


edge, how do you maintain a cultural identity in a globalised


environment. It is not the EU, it's a globalised environment. You are


telling me that... One of the reasons we are democratic is we


control our own borders, laws and taxes. If we control none of those


we want the country. Can I ask you to address this briefly, Alisdair?


If Remain is successful, do you admit that it will push the idea of


independence in Scotland into the long grass? I don't accept


the premises of these questions. There is a simple question being put


to us about the positive case for remaining in the European Union and


that is what people in Scotland are thinking of. Of course if Scotland


is put in a position where it is tracked out of the European union


against its will electorally of course that will have an impact and


create new pressures around the case for independence, for the case


independence. The case for independence has been around for a


long time and it isn't going away. Briefly, Denise, you want to stay in


the UK and you accept that if we leave we are more likely to have


another referendum. I think people are exhausted, you are right, they


are exhausted being asked to write in to constitutional questions, we


have to be bound by the outcome of the referendum, whether it is what


we would like not. Thank you. That is all from here tonight, there will


be more from Emily in Orlando and will be moving on with our Road


truck tomorrow. From all of us in Glasgow, good night.


Weather across the UK stuck in repeat, plenty of showers, some




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