14/06/2016 Newsnight


14/06/2016

Newsnight is live in Middlesbrough, could the Labour heartlands vote to Brexit? And is also live in Orlando as America reacts.


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Transcript


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All this week, we're on our Referendum Road trip,

:00:00.:00:00.

and we've moved our Newsnight studio truck south from Scotland

:00:07.:00:09.

Tonight, we're live in Middlesbrough - a Labour heartland

:00:10.:00:14.

where at the last election, Ukip have surged into second place -

:00:15.:00:17.

to find out if Jeremy Corbyn's Remain message is what people

:00:18.:00:21.

How many of you are thinking of voting Out?

:00:22.:00:27.

The biggest single thing that people are talking about is

:00:28.:00:29.

What is clear is that they don't understand why they

:00:30.:00:33.

can't talk about it with their politicians and why their

:00:34.:00:35.

The Remain campaign wheels out its not-so-secret weapons

:00:36.:00:43.

Tonight, I'll ask this one why so many of their traditional voters

:00:44.:00:48.

seem to think they're firing blanks on immigration.

:00:49.:00:51.

Over the course of your professional lifetimes,

:00:52.:00:56.

wounds would you estimate that you have each treated?

:00:57.:01:01.

Probably all the fingers in this room would not count it up.

:01:02.:01:13.

In Orlando, the killings have quickly become polemic.

:01:14.:01:15.

Those on the right want to make this about Isis and immigration.

:01:16.:01:17.

Those on the left want to make it about gun laws.

:01:18.:01:20.

Those in the LGBT community feel they are getting lost in a political

:01:21.:01:23.

narrative that has forgotten about them.

:01:24.:01:32.

Good evening from Middlesbrough, where the smell of its remaining

:01:33.:01:40.

chemical industry is in the air. We have parked our Referendum Road Trip

:01:41.:01:43.

truck in front of the town hall in the heart of the town. In a moment,

:01:44.:01:48.

I will be asking an audience of local people and politicians what

:01:49.:01:51.

they want to hear from Labour in particular on Europe.

:01:52.:01:59.

All this week, the Newsnight truck is travelling north to south,

:02:00.:02:02.

from Glasgow to Middlesbrough, to Leicester, Chipping Norton

:02:03.:02:04.

and finally on Friday, to Bognor Regis, to find out

:02:05.:02:07.

what people really think about the EU.

:02:08.:02:13.

Last night, we were in Glasgow and today, the Newsnight crew

:02:14.:02:17.

took the Road Show truck across the beautiful Pennines

:02:18.:02:20.

and into the industrial town of Middlesbrough.

:02:21.:02:23.

Past a piece of classic engineering, the famous Transporter

:02:24.:02:25.

Here, there is a proud industrial heritage in steel chemicals,

:02:26.:02:33.

where people still call themselves the Smoggies,

:02:34.:02:35.

Unemployment is well above the national average.

:02:36.:02:43.

And this is amongst the most deprived boroughs in England.

:02:44.:03:02.

But there's pride in this town, and they are proud, too,

:03:03.:03:05.

of their famous sons, from the Explorer and navigator

:03:06.:03:07.

Captain Cook, to the football visionary, Brian Clough,

:03:08.:03:09.

And they are celebrating present-day footballing glory, too.

:03:10.:03:13.

They have just been promoted back to the Premier League.

:03:14.:03:16.

So in this one-time industrial heartland, has the EU been

:03:17.:03:18.

a power for good or simply exacerbated its decline?

:03:19.:03:31.

First, we have a small audience of voters from Middlesbrough, including

:03:32.:03:38.

some first-time voters, with a wide variety of views. First, Ray Kelly.

:03:39.:03:45.

You are porting for Leave. Why? To get back our democracy, our

:03:46.:03:49.

Government and our border controls. -- you're to me. You want to stop

:03:50.:03:55.

immigration most of all? Not to stop but to control it. We need

:03:56.:04:00.

immigration but we need to control it and we can't control it at this

:04:01.:04:05.

moment in time. From your point of view, are you going to vote to

:04:06.:04:11.

re-main or leave? I think you are a Leave man. I am. I am a guy of older

:04:12.:04:16.

values. When the EU was first made, it was about making a better world

:04:17.:04:24.

and a better market. Those values are long gone and we have two cement

:04:25.:04:29.

the values again. Where have we gone wrong in values? Isn't the idea of

:04:30.:04:34.

bringing other countries into the fold very much one of a bigger

:04:35.:04:39.

European family? You can bring in all the countries you want. We want

:04:40.:04:45.

to bring in Algeria and places like that. I am all for immigration and

:04:46.:04:49.

they bring so much value to the UK economy, a lot more than... Myself,

:04:50.:05:01.

I feel that we should look at UK citizens and how they contribute to

:05:02.:05:05.

the EU in general, and look away from the immigration. Terry, you

:05:06.:05:13.

have another view. Mine is the NHS. I feel like if we do leave, there

:05:14.:05:18.

will be huge detrimentally affects to the NHS. And yet, people say that

:05:19.:05:22.

if we do leave, there will be more money to spend on it. They say it

:05:23.:05:28.

will be put into the NHS, whereas a lot of there are -- whereas there

:05:29.:05:31.

are a lot of other places that need to go to. Who knows? It is a big

:05:32.:05:38.

gamble. We are also close to the art gallery here. Allister Hutton, tell

:05:39.:05:44.

me, what does the EU do for you and your gallery? We get direct EU

:05:45.:05:50.

funding, and not just that but collaborations with museums and

:05:51.:05:53.

universities and cultural organisations all over Europe. Don't

:05:54.:05:58.

you have that with America, Australia and Canada? We do, but

:05:59.:06:02.

these are our neighbours and we are in it with them. The only way to

:06:03.:06:09.

work is to collaborate. Isolation is from a past era. Is this the best

:06:10.:06:14.

use of the EU money, do you think is Mike yes, because it goes into

:06:15.:06:19.

skills, training, education, into a whole host of things that support

:06:20.:06:23.

the culture and economy of the region. I would like to speak to

:06:24.:06:29.

Oliver. You are a first-time voter, argue nervous? Is a bit. It is a

:06:30.:06:37.

question of, where do you go with this? So you haven't decided? No.

:06:38.:06:45.

What would persuade you? I think it will be a lot of business. We are

:06:46.:06:50.

the future of the country, and everything else, and that makes us,

:06:51.:06:56.

I feel, the most important, and I feel we haven't been targeted enough

:06:57.:07:00.

in terms of political campaigns. What about you, where do you stand?

:07:01.:07:05.

I am undecided. I think it would be a these -- it would be easier for

:07:06.:07:13.

first-time voters if we had decided ourselves the pros and cons of

:07:14.:07:20.

remaining on leaving. You only have ten days left, and you feel the

:07:21.:07:23.

politicians are not giving you what you want to hear? Yes. Maybe you

:07:24.:07:27.

will get answers later on. Labour grandees are out

:07:28.:07:30.

in force this week, pushing the case for Remain,

:07:31.:07:32.

as surveys suggest many Labour voters don't even know their party's

:07:33.:07:34.

position on the referendum. So how disconnected is Labour

:07:35.:07:37.

from its industrial heartland? The now-defunct Redcar steelworks

:07:38.:07:39.

loom out of the fog. They closed for good eight months

:07:40.:07:53.

ago, with more than 3000 workers 175 years of steel-making,

:07:54.:07:56.

consigned to history. OK, so what we are doing

:07:57.:08:04.

in the theory side of the lesson At Middlesbrough College's Stem

:08:05.:08:07.

Training Centre, amongst the apprentices, a pot

:08:08.:08:10.

of ?1.2 million has been allocated specifically to retrain people

:08:11.:08:13.

who lost their jobs in steel. With opportunities for overtime,

:08:14.:08:19.

wages in the steel This former electrical supervisor

:08:20.:08:21.

at Redcar has taken a pay cut to become a trainer at the college,

:08:22.:08:29.

although he's very grateful What happened at Redcar has

:08:30.:08:31.

influenced his decision But you got the message

:08:32.:08:35.

that they couldn't Yes, because of EU rules,

:08:36.:08:42.

which were stopping them In another classroom,

:08:43.:08:46.

a one-day course Five here lost their jobs

:08:47.:08:51.

when the steelworks shut. In the past, they would have been

:08:52.:08:57.

Labour through and through and might have listened to what

:08:58.:09:00.

the party is saying How many of you are

:09:01.:09:02.

thinking of voting In? How many of you are

:09:03.:09:12.

thinking of voting Out? You know, we are systematically

:09:13.:09:15.

losing industries The steel industry, the shipbuilding

:09:16.:09:21.

industry, the fisheries. No, I don't think

:09:22.:09:24.

it is globalisation. If traditional Labour voters are key

:09:25.:09:34.

to Britain's continuing EU membership, Labour needs to work

:09:35.:09:42.

a lot harder to persuade them. Middlesbrough has been Labour

:09:43.:09:45.

for decades by the party's message Middlesbrough has been Labour

:09:46.:09:54.

for decades but the party's message does not appear to be reaching

:09:55.:09:56.

working-class voters. This is going to be a dry bar,

:09:57.:09:58.

that means a bar, that looks like an adult-only bar environment

:09:59.:10:01.

but no booze. Andy Preston is a local

:10:02.:10:03.

philanthropist. When open, this site will offer

:10:04.:10:04.

work and opportunities He left the Labour Party

:10:05.:10:07.

a few years ago but is He has picked up a disconnect

:10:08.:10:10.

between Labour and its core voters. The biggest single thing that people

:10:11.:10:15.

are talking about is immigration. What is clear is that they don't

:10:16.:10:17.

understand why they can't talk about it with their politicians

:10:18.:10:20.

and why their politicians What has gone on is that people have

:10:21.:10:23.

seen their area change, physically. It looks different and feels

:10:24.:10:29.

different, and they have got Labour's unwillingness

:10:30.:10:31.

and discomfort at talking about the concept of immigration

:10:32.:10:35.

is really impacting On the 23rd of June,

:10:36.:10:37.

I'm voting Out and the reason is, apart from the massive immigration,

:10:38.:10:46.

I mean, we should now be taking Caring for her granddaughters takes

:10:47.:10:49.

up Jane's every moment. The children's parents are addicts

:10:50.:10:57.

and the kids would be in care You cut down on your bills,

:10:58.:11:02.

electric and gas. You don't use as much,

:11:03.:11:08.

you are frightened to use too You have just got to be

:11:09.:11:10.

careful with your money. It is just the love you have got

:11:11.:11:14.

for them and they need When you are struggling,

:11:15.:11:17.

the sense that others are getting Like, for other, like,

:11:18.:11:20.

for our own people. I know I should not say that,

:11:21.:11:27.

but it's our own and bringing No one can get any money or anything

:11:28.:11:30.

like that, you know, the allowances they are entitled to,

:11:31.:11:37.

they are cutting that back as well, so they have got more money

:11:38.:11:40.

for the other people When you speak to people

:11:41.:11:42.

round here about the Labour Party and how Labour wants them to vote

:11:43.:11:48.

In, are they listening, No, not at all, they are not

:11:49.:11:51.

listening at all. Labour is doing nothing

:11:52.:11:54.

at all for them whatsoever. They have decided that they want

:11:55.:11:58.

to vote Out and stay out. Labour was for working class

:11:59.:12:01.

but there's no jobs no more. There's no working class for them

:12:02.:12:06.

so they prefer to vote Out. Just how widespread is the desire

:12:07.:12:14.

amongst voters to leave the EU in a region which has

:12:15.:12:17.

benefited from European money As you know, this is a table,

:12:18.:12:20.

which was Boosbeck-designed... In the 1930s, Boosbeck was a scheme

:12:21.:12:29.

that had unemployed Artist Adam Clarke has reinvented it

:12:30.:12:31.

with help from Middlesbrough's Institute of Modern

:12:32.:12:36.

Art and EU funding. The idea is to reskill and give

:12:37.:12:40.

employment to people in the area. All here are left-leaning

:12:41.:12:44.

and support Britain's EU membership. I don't think that leaving the EU

:12:45.:12:50.

will do workers any favours. I think we need to be represented

:12:51.:12:57.

at a European level as well. When people are poor,

:12:58.:13:04.

it is very easy to point I would not say justified

:13:05.:13:06.

but I would say Things have got harder again

:13:07.:13:13.

recently with the cuts. Do they have an answer

:13:14.:13:21.

to Labour's travails? I think it is almost the politics

:13:22.:13:24.

of personality that is required. Personally, I think Jeremy Corbyn

:13:25.:13:29.

is doing a good job. But I think traditional voters

:13:30.:13:33.

need somebody who is, you know, in the vein

:13:34.:13:35.

of a Nigel Farage, but with different political views

:13:36.:13:40.

of course, who can persuade them I think what we have had

:13:41.:13:43.

historically is that hard-working people in the past relied

:13:44.:13:50.

on the Labour Party to look after their interests

:13:51.:13:53.

with workers' rights, with pay, Now, people are feeling

:13:54.:13:55.

that the Labour Party and other parties are not looking after them

:13:56.:14:01.

in the same way. What we are seeing here is not

:14:02.:14:04.

necessarily a desertion of the Labour Party but a bit

:14:05.:14:06.

of a rebellion I predict that to continue,

:14:07.:14:08.

as people nationally move away But that is the challenge Labour has

:14:09.:14:12.

got, to re-engage with these people The question for both sides in this

:14:13.:14:17.

referendum, can Labour do that With me now is the shadow civil

:14:18.:14:40.

society Minister. Those sentiments from the film, I know that you think

:14:41.:14:43.

there is a terrible sense of urgency, and you are quite critical

:14:44.:14:48.

of the Labour leadership. Critical of the campaign so far. We really

:14:49.:14:52.

have to get out and talk to people. Today was mixed on the doorstep, but

:14:53.:14:57.

there is palpable anger on Teesside. We have been devastated in the last

:14:58.:15:01.

six months, with the loss of the steelworks. That is thousands of

:15:02.:15:06.

jobs, and not just deal workers, childminders and window cleaners.

:15:07.:15:09.

People are angry and they are hitting out. We cannot afford for

:15:10.:15:13.

people to cut off their nose despite their face.

:15:14.:15:19.

But again, the idea that there have been benefits on the EU in terms of

:15:20.:15:25.

the money but in that people don't see it in everyday lives? We are an

:15:26.:15:28.

net beneficiary of what comes out of the EU but we have to tell Biba

:15:29.:15:33.

that. We've got fantastic asset on Deeside, the port, the chemical

:15:34.:15:36.

industry rely on a market in Europe. If we don't invest, we will make the

:15:37.:15:41.

situation worse and the situation we saw this year will be industrial

:15:42.:15:47.

self harm. I know you think London appears to be a long way away? It

:15:48.:15:51.

does, London has got a long way away, particularly in this process.

:15:52.:15:54.

We felt people don't understand the steel crisis and we think they don't

:15:55.:15:58.

understand the fight. They have other report says all the jobs have

:15:59.:16:00.

been absorbed which they haven't. London does not understand and we

:16:01.:16:04.

need the leadership. I was delighted to see Jeremy and the labour

:16:05.:16:08.

movement come out today and say it's about workers' rights. People are

:16:09.:16:19.

saying and the report said, a lot of people don't know where Labour

:16:20.:16:21.

stands? We found that on the doorstep, Labour voters who are

:16:22.:16:23.

undecided about voting and they want to know what we think, how it

:16:24.:16:25.

affects their lives, pay and conditions, particularly women. We

:16:26.:16:28.

have a big job to do. What we heard in the film is that one of Labour's

:16:29.:16:31.

big failures is being prepared to talk about immigration? I think

:16:32.:16:34.

that's right, we have not been prepared to talk about issues like

:16:35.:16:38.

immigration, there are issues like security, crime, anti-social

:16:39.:16:40.

behaviour, we have to grasp and listen to what people are telling us

:16:41.:16:43.

on the doorstep and if we stick our head in the stand, -- in the sand,

:16:44.:16:47.

we're not in touch with people. Tom Watson came out today and made an

:16:48.:16:50.

important statement, we have to look at free movement because people have

:16:51.:16:53.

seen their wages depressed which was not because of free movement. You

:16:54.:16:57.

are going to stay here and we are to talk about what you can and cannot

:16:58.:17:02.

do on free movement but now, we are getting the latest from our

:17:03.:17:04.

political editor, Nick Watt, who joins us from London. I gather that

:17:05.:17:11.

the Labour leaders and big figures have been out in force today?

:17:12.:17:16.

Yes, they have indeed been out in force and they share the concerns

:17:17.:17:18.

that you are hearing there from Anna. What we are hearing the night

:17:19.:17:23.

is those fears have become so great that there are senior Labour figures

:17:24.:17:27.

in the Remain campaign who are saying to their conservative

:17:28.:17:30.

colleagues, "We have, the Prime Minister has got to talk about

:17:31.:17:33.

immigration because this is the issue which is in danger of meaning

:17:34.:17:38.

that Labour voters deserve the Gabi main campaign. We understand it's

:17:39.:17:42.

difficult for the Prime Minister to talk about, and he does not want to

:17:43.:17:45.

talk about the net migration target but Yvette Cooper, the former Shadow

:17:46.:17:48.

Home Secretary has said the night and has been telling her former

:17:49.:17:51.

colleagues the Prime Minister should say he could use for example the UK

:17:52.:17:55.

presidency of the EU next year to talk about possible modest reforms

:17:56.:17:59.

to freedom of movement. But the message from number ten tonight is

:18:00.:18:03.

no, we want to focus this campaign on the economy and they are so wary

:18:04.:18:06.

of talking about immigration that they won't even talk about one of

:18:07.:18:09.

the things Gordon Brown and Yvette Cooper has been talking about that

:18:10.:18:14.

was in the Conservative manifesto, establishing a special fund to help

:18:15.:18:17.

areas that are struggling under the impact of immigrants.

:18:18.:18:24.

Service ends of this array with nine days to go but tomorrow is going to

:18:25.:18:28.

be one of the more eventful days on the campaign? Yes, tomorrow, George

:18:29.:18:31.

Osborne will live up to the number ten commitment to try to yank this

:18:32.:18:35.

campaign back to the economy. He will share a platform with his

:18:36.:18:39.

predecessor as Chancellor, Alistair Darling, and they will say that IFS

:18:40.:18:44.

estimates suggest there will be a ?30 billion like: the public

:18:45.:18:46.

finances if we voted to leave and the way you deal with that, they are

:18:47.:18:49.

talking about an emergency Brexit budget, which would have ?15 billion

:18:50.:18:54.

of tax increases, ?15 billion of spending cuts. Why are they doing

:18:55.:18:59.

this? They want to reprise the success they believe they had in

:19:00.:19:03.

signalling the economic risks in the Scottish independence referendum and

:19:04.:19:08.

there was interestingly, turmoil on the markets today, a flight to

:19:09.:19:13.

safety as the FTSE 100 went below 6000 but the first time since

:19:14.:19:16.

February, and the second thing they want to do is to say that Vote

:19:17.:19:21.

Leave's idea of spending an extra ?100 million a week on the NHS is a

:19:22.:19:25.

con because there would be a big hit to the economy but Vote Leave are

:19:26.:19:28.

saying it is nonsense and scaremongering and they say they

:19:29.:19:30.

will outline a positive vision tomorrow of how they can take the UK

:19:31.:19:34.

out of the EU in a step-by-step process by 2019. Thank you for

:19:35.:19:37.

joining us. We are going to be back in

:19:38.:19:43.

Middlesbrough for more conversation before the end of the programme but

:19:44.:19:48.

now to Emily in Dando where the shock of the nightclub killings

:19:49.:19:50.

continue to reverberate across the whole of the United States. -- in

:19:51.:19:52.

Orlando. Good evening from Orlando,

:19:53.:19:54.

a city whose tragedy has somehow turned into the backdrop for one

:19:55.:19:59.

of the fiercest political rows of this already

:20:00.:20:01.

extraordinary electoral race. President Obama unleashed

:20:02.:20:03.

what felt like seven years of frustration

:20:04.:20:05.

towards the Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump,

:20:06.:20:06.

warming that his anti-Muslim rhetoric would drive

:20:07.:20:08.

many young Americans Today Trump, who has

:20:09.:20:12.

consistently called Obama soft on terrorists, suggested

:20:13.:20:23.

obliquely the President may actually be aligned with the terrorists,

:20:24.:20:25.

a conspiracy theory too far And what of the community

:20:26.:20:28.

here itself? Today, surgeons

:20:29.:20:31.

at Orlando's hospital told me they treated over1,000

:20:32.:20:35.

victims of gun crime every year. And we heard from a survivor who

:20:36.:20:39.

played dead to stay alive. But perhaps the most arresting

:20:40.:20:43.

details came of the killer himself, as witnesses suggested

:20:44.:20:46.

he might have been gay. How do you describe a man

:20:47.:20:48.

who was angry, unstable, America has called Omar Mateen

:20:49.:20:50.

a terrorist, a radical Islamist, a homophobe and increasingly now,

:20:51.:20:54.

a self hater. As witnesses say he frequented gay

:20:55.:20:59.

clubs himself over the course of several years, was he a man

:21:00.:21:04.

so conflicted with his sexuality in a religion that did not tolerate

:21:05.:21:10.

homosexuality, and if so, does that make America's response

:21:11.:21:12.

to this any different? I met him one time,

:21:13.:21:19.

at the bar, he was trying He was a homosexual

:21:20.:21:22.

and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them

:21:23.:21:27.

and then he would, maybe, put his arm around them

:21:28.:21:30.

or something, and maybe try to get them to dance

:21:31.:21:32.

a little bit or something, Others have come forward saying

:21:33.:21:35.

the killer's profile was on Grindr He might have been casing out

:21:36.:21:43.

victims, or he might have At the LGBT Centre in Orlando,

:21:44.:21:51.

they're offering support and counselling to survivors,

:21:52.:21:55.

families and friends. The director says he recognises

:21:56.:21:56.

the picture that is emerging. It seems more leaning

:21:57.:22:00.

towards a closeted LGBT person, who needed to take

:22:01.:22:08.

their vengeance out on their own demons

:22:09.:22:15.

and walked into this club To try to cleanse themselves

:22:16.:22:18.

of their demons and take it Adam, a mental health counsellor,

:22:19.:22:21.

says he has seen the pattern many times but says it is easier

:22:22.:22:26.

for America to point to an external There's definitely an element of,

:22:27.:22:31.

you know, people politicising this. But I think there is something

:22:32.:22:38.

larger going on there. This is an LGBT issue,

:22:39.:22:44.

this is a mental health issue, this is something that we as Orlandoans

:22:45.:22:52.

and Americans have to figure This isn't just, there's

:22:53.:22:55.

an outside bad guy out Certainly, the mass shooting has

:22:56.:23:02.

exposed two presidential nominees to a sharp examination

:23:03.:23:09.

of their political instincts Now, Hillary Clinton,

:23:10.:23:11.

or as I call her, Crooked Hillary She refuses to even say

:23:12.:23:17.

the words radical Islam. Americans, we don't need

:23:18.:23:25.

conspiracy theories and pathological

:23:26.:23:28.

self-congratulations. We need leadership, common-sense,

:23:29.:23:32.

and concrete plans, because we are facing

:23:33.:23:35.

a brutal enemy. By focusing on the Orlando

:23:36.:23:41.

killer's allegiance to Isis, it has become much easier for those

:23:42.:23:45.

on the right of American politics to talk about the need

:23:46.:23:48.

for new immigration measures But for many Americans,

:23:49.:23:50.

this is a pretty domestic tragedy, both more mundane and more

:23:51.:23:56.

intractable, that toxic combination of what happens when mental health

:23:57.:23:59.

issues meet easy access to firearms. At the Orlando hospital,

:24:00.:24:04.

we hear powerful testimony from one I wish I could remember his face

:24:05.:24:08.

or his name, that cop, because I want to say

:24:09.:24:14.

I'm grateful to him. So he starts to drag me out,

:24:15.:24:18.

across the street, to the Wendy's. I'm grateful for him but the floor

:24:19.:24:25.

was covered in glass. So he's dragging me out

:24:26.:24:29.

while I'm getting cut I don't feel pain but I just feel

:24:30.:24:31.

all this blood on me, He just drops me off,

:24:32.:24:41.

across the street, and I look over Surgeons tell a packed room

:24:42.:24:49.

of global press they still have 27 of the shooting victims,

:24:50.:24:56.

six in intensive care. Quick question to the surgeons,

:24:57.:24:59.

I'm just doing the maths, over the course of your professional

:25:00.:25:04.

lifetimes, how many victims of gunshot wounds would you estimate

:25:05.:25:07.

that you had each treated? So you would each say

:25:08.:25:19.

more than 10,000? Barack Obama arrives

:25:20.:25:23.

here in Orlando on Thursday, in the midst of possibly

:25:24.:25:26.

the craziest confection yet, intimations from Donald Trump that

:25:27.:25:28.

America's president may even be complicit in terror activities

:25:29.:25:31.

by Islamic extremists. This community, survivors

:25:32.:25:33.

and victims, are desperate for all of this and all of us to go

:25:34.:25:36.

away, but at this point in the electoral, presidential

:25:37.:25:40.

cycle, nothing, it seems, is ever just about an

:25:41.:25:42.

appalling tragedy itself. Joining me down the line from Los

:25:43.:25:58.

Angeles is the founder of the Moral Courage project. Thank you for

:25:59.:26:03.

joining us. Am I right in thinking that you describe yourself as

:26:04.:26:08.

lesbian and Muslim without conflict? Well, without conflict, for sure. I

:26:09.:26:12.

came out to my very devout Muslim mother many years ago. She told me,

:26:13.:26:19.

"You are my daughter and my love for you is unconditional". So I have

:26:20.:26:24.

certainly been blessed with a wonderful parent but in addition to

:26:25.:26:28.

that, I will say that commune, we Muslims are taught that God is

:26:29.:26:35.

omniscient and all-powerful. -- I will say that, you know. All knowing

:26:36.:26:40.

and all-powerful so surely he knew when he was creating somebody like

:26:41.:26:45.

me. Does make mistakes? Muslims would say absolutely not. So I have

:26:46.:26:49.

been able through the love of my family and the love of God to

:26:50.:26:54.

reconcile all that I am, rather than leader vulcanised life. I'm very

:26:55.:26:59.

much at peace with being gay and being Muslim. -- lead a vulcanised

:27:00.:27:05.

life. And we were hearing elements of the Orlando Keller's life, there,

:27:06.:27:11.

suggestions he had been on gay dating apps and frequenting some of

:27:12.:27:15.

the clubs himself over the years, that he had beaten his first wife

:27:16.:27:18.

badly, to the point where she was removed by her parents. Does this

:27:19.:27:25.

spell any pattern of behaviour to you? Does this sound like a man who

:27:26.:27:32.

is a self hater? Honestly, there are so many cases of wife abuse and

:27:33.:27:36.

domestic violence all over the world, that it would be reductionist

:27:37.:27:40.

and irresponsible for me at least to say that yes, this guy is absolutely

:27:41.:27:49.

a self hater, or was. But clearly, if he was scoping out potential six

:27:50.:27:57.

partners, or potential victims, on apps like Grindr, there was

:27:58.:28:04.

something in him that was more than just religious, it was more than

:28:05.:28:09.

just angry. It may have been some kind of loathing instinct that

:28:10.:28:13.

brought him to do what he did. We simply don't know. You sound as if

:28:14.:28:22.

he were very lucky in the love of your parents and the support you had

:28:23.:28:27.

-- you were. But many people of all will it and we'll find it very hard,

:28:28.:28:33.

particularly -- all religions will find it very hard, particularly in

:28:34.:28:37.

this case, as it seems, to be a practising Muslim and a homosexual.

:28:38.:28:42.

What is the path forward there? Yes, you're right, many Muslims do find

:28:43.:28:45.

it difficult and when I speak with Young Muslims all over the world,

:28:46.:28:48.

one of the most common questions they ask of me is," how do I tell my

:28:49.:28:55.

parents that I am not straight?" Some will use the word gay but that

:28:56.:29:00.

is certainly a much wider concern within the Muslim community than

:29:01.:29:06.

most imams and elders will want to acknowledge. The path forward is

:29:07.:29:10.

actually cultural more than it is religious. You know, in Arab

:29:11.:29:16.

culture, there is a tradition, a custom known as on. While it sounds

:29:17.:29:22.

honourable, it actually is not. On refers to the reputation of the

:29:23.:29:26.

entire family. If somebody is accused of trying is Chris in moral

:29:27.:29:32.

codes, not only -- of transgressing moral codes, not only have you

:29:33.:29:35.

shamed yourself according to this cost of honour, you have change your

:29:36.:29:38.

entire family. Imagine the pressure that puts on young Muslims to shut

:29:39.:29:45.

up and conform. The path forward is to redefine honour, to meet

:29:46.:29:48.

individual dignity, individual integrity, and wholeness, rather

:29:49.:29:53.

than any one of us being the property of our families. So do you

:29:54.:30:01.

believe there is a clash of civilisations between these two?

:30:02.:30:08.

Emily, I don't believe that. Here I sit before you, live, as someone who

:30:09.:30:14.

has, you rightly pointed out, is completely reconciled as both gay

:30:15.:30:19.

and Muslim. I was born in Africa. Very different values than the

:30:20.:30:24.

country in which I grew up, which is Canada. It is that chlorella is and

:30:25.:30:30.

that freedom that allowed me to ask many, many questions, both of myself

:30:31.:30:36.

and of others. And thank God for those freedoms. Because that is what

:30:37.:30:40.

allowed me to understand that you don't have to be one or the other,

:30:41.:30:46.

that God has created us complicated, and any god that is majestic will

:30:47.:30:51.

not be manufacturing widgets, he will be creating truly divine

:30:52.:31:02.

creatures. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you joining us

:31:03.:31:03.

tonight. Even though it feels like some of

:31:04.:31:13.

the politics is overtaking the narrative, this is a community that

:31:14.:31:18.

is asking many questions, trying to understand where the Leeds lead, if

:31:19.:31:24.

you like, whether it is about mental health issues in the community,

:31:25.:31:28.

whether it is about how a man who has been checked out by the FBI

:31:29.:31:33.

three times can still go out and buy a gun. This is a community that,

:31:34.:31:37.

essentially, needs to be left in peace.

:31:38.:31:40.

When Labour politicians talk about it, they invariably

:31:41.:31:42.

When Labour politicians don't talk about it,

:31:43.:31:44.

they arguably end up in even more trouble.

:31:45.:31:46.

But they have to find a trouble-free way to talk about immigration now,

:31:47.:31:50.

with most of the data describing it as the engine driving traditional

:31:51.:31:53.

supporters into the arms of the Leave campaign.

:31:54.:31:55.

The problem is, what are they going to say?

:31:56.:31:59.

Joining me now is Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn.

:32:00.:32:07.

We must be again by calibrating using the context of the Shadow

:32:08.:32:20.

Cabinet. You know that toe... Tom Watson has called for a look at free

:32:21.:32:27.

movement. On the campaign trail in tooting, Jeremy Corbyn has said that

:32:28.:32:31.

free movement of workers is intrinsic to the European Union,

:32:32.:32:34.

there has to be free movement of people, and that is what we have to

:32:35.:32:37.

defend because it is intrinsic to the helping. Back of a fag packet

:32:38.:32:47.

calculation, Mr Watson's edition is supported by Ed balls, Andy Burnham,

:32:48.:32:56.

and we know that Jeremy Corbyn's position is different. Who are you

:32:57.:32:59.

closest to? Yellow might we heard in the film the people that you were

:33:00.:33:07.

speaking to. There is pressure on some communities, and Redcar is

:33:08.:33:11.

suffering because of the closure of the steelworks, and there are things

:33:12.:33:16.

that we can do. For example, when it comes to new member states possibly

:33:17.:33:21.

joining the EU, we have complete control over that because we can

:33:22.:33:24.

determine the terms on which they join because each member state has a

:33:25.:33:29.

veto on that. But we're not going to help deal with any of those

:33:30.:33:33.

pressures that people feel in communities up and down the country.

:33:34.:33:38.

I'm afraid, the notion that we don't talk about immigration, I talk about

:33:39.:33:44.

it a great deal to my constituents, travelling around the country, and I

:33:45.:33:48.

talked about it in a speech that I made yesterday. Of course, we talk

:33:49.:33:52.

about it, but we will not deal with the problem by damaging our economy,

:33:53.:33:59.

particularly in the north-east, where 58% of exports go to the EU.

:34:00.:34:06.

I am interested in the Labour versus labour position of Mr Corbyn appears

:34:07.:34:09.

to have said this evening that the free movement of people within the

:34:10.:34:14.

EU is sacrosanct. Mr Watson appears to be suggesting that a future

:34:15.:34:17.

Labour Government or Conservative Government would have to have it up

:34:18.:34:20.

for grabs, it would have to be negotiable. What is your personal

:34:21.:34:26.

position? My position is that, yes indeed, the current set up in the EU

:34:27.:34:29.

is that free movement is part the deal, both into Britain, and 1.2

:34:30.:34:37.

million Brits who exercise their rights of free movement elsewhere.

:34:38.:34:40.

Of course, it is right to have a debate will stop what you are

:34:41.:34:43.

reporting on is, there is a debate taking place. Between the leader and

:34:44.:34:52.

deputy leader of the Labour Party. It is the most important political

:34:53.:34:56.

decision in a generation and you are having a debate about what your

:34:57.:35:02.

position is. Yellow might we are not having a debate about what our

:35:03.:35:07.

position is. Today, you saw the Labour family come together at

:35:08.:35:12.

Congress house, the Shadow Cabinet, members of the NEC, trade union

:35:13.:35:15.

leaders, all saying with one voice, the right thing for Britain, for

:35:16.:35:20.

workers, for jobs, investment and growth, is to remain in the EU. You

:35:21.:35:27.

can't, on one hand, say that Labour isn't listening to people on the

:35:28.:35:31.

doorstep. If we are having a debate about what the right thing to do is

:35:32.:35:37.

going forward, hopefully after Britain has voted to remain, you

:35:38.:35:41.

would say that was a good thing, wouldn't you?

:35:42.:35:43.

Tom Watson was stating that the current rules on freedom of movement

:35:44.:35:46.

should be reviewed. Jeremy Corbyn appears to be insisting that they

:35:47.:35:50.

should not. I will have to lick my finger and see which way the wind is

:35:51.:35:54.

blowing - you seem to be closer to Corbyn. I said that we should look

:35:55.:36:00.

at how the system works. I have already said to you that when it

:36:01.:36:04.

comes to new member states, which is an area where we do have control, it

:36:05.:36:09.

would be within our rights to say, for new member states, yes, you can

:36:10.:36:15.

join the single market, which is important to jobs, but we will be

:36:16.:36:19.

term and how free movement applies to those countries. I think that

:36:20.:36:23.

would be a sensible thing to do, and we have the ability do it, because

:36:24.:36:28.

every member state has a veto. Have you just come up with a third by? I

:36:29.:36:33.

don't know about that! Look, the people are talking about it, it is a

:36:34.:36:37.

big issue in the referendum, so it is right and proper that we should

:36:38.:36:41.

talk about it, too. But that does not get away from the most important

:36:42.:36:49.

point, which is that weakening our economy - and it is unusual to get

:36:50.:36:54.

most economists do agree that the economy will be hit when we leave.

:36:55.:37:01.

Every study confirms it. Warnings from the Governor of the Bank of

:37:02.:37:04.

England and the IMF. For all of them to say that we will have a weaker

:37:05.:37:09.

and less prosperous economy if we leave, how will that help us deal

:37:10.:37:12.

with the pressures we heard about in the film, on housing, the NHS and

:37:13.:37:18.

schools? And the north-east, of course, there has been changing the

:37:19.:37:21.

industrial make-up of that part of the country, as there has been

:37:22.:37:25.

elsewhere, but what else is going on there, and where is the most

:37:26.:37:29.

productive car plant in the whole of Europe? Millions have been spent on

:37:30.:37:38.

a new train manufacturing plant. Importantly, it is because we are

:37:39.:37:44.

part of the largest single market in the world. Leaving that and creating

:37:45.:37:50.

uncertainty about future trading relationships does nothing to

:37:51.:37:52.

address the concerns that people have. In fact, it makes it worse. It

:37:53.:37:58.

is all about numbers. There are the currency numbers, the money numbers,

:37:59.:38:04.

growing larger every day, the amount that we have lost on the market, the

:38:05.:38:08.

amount we might lose in the future, versus the number of people who

:38:09.:38:13.

might come here in the event of such and such a country joining. Are you

:38:14.:38:17.

saying to the people we saw in the film tonight, there is not a great

:38:18.:38:21.

deal that we can do about your concerns regarding immigration, but

:38:22.:38:25.

I promise you will be even worse off if we leave? Is that the message, or

:38:26.:38:29.

does the Labour Party have any line on telling people why the reality of

:38:30.:38:34.

immigration is different and better than their perception? It is a

:38:35.:38:38.

complex issue, but I will give an example. The NHS depends, in part,

:38:39.:38:42.

on doctors and nurses from the EU and other parts of the world who

:38:43.:38:45.

have come to bring their skills. One in five care workers come from

:38:46.:38:53.

outside the United Kingdom. EU migrants in the last 15 years have

:38:54.:38:57.

contributed ?20 billion more to the public finances than they have

:38:58.:39:00.

received in any form of benefits. What is it being spent on? Paying

:39:01.:39:05.

for schools, hospitals and other public services. The Government

:39:06.:39:09.

could establish a migration impact fund. It would be a good idea, such

:39:10.:39:14.

a good idea that the last Labour Government had one. David Cameron

:39:15.:39:18.

scrapped it when he came to power. That would provide additional

:39:19.:39:22.

financial assistance to areas where there are additional pressures

:39:23.:39:25.

because of the nature of migration. If you go to Boston, and you did a

:39:26.:39:30.

programme from their two three weeks ago, those people are picking the

:39:31.:39:35.

vegetables and keeping the industry growing, but it creates pressures in

:39:36.:39:40.

Boston itself. Wouldn't it be sensible to have a migration impact

:39:41.:39:43.

on? It is something David Cameron could do. It is a question of a

:39:44.:39:47.

Conservative Government that is not prepared to act. Yvette Cooper has

:39:48.:39:54.

been privately suggesting rather robustly that we need to start

:39:55.:39:58.

debating immigration in the Labour Party. It is the job of all

:39:59.:40:02.

politicians to listen to respond to what the public is saying. At the

:40:03.:40:07.

same time, our responsibility, particularly with nine days to go,

:40:08.:40:13.

is to to people, why, in our case, the labour movement is united. And

:40:14.:40:21.

it is important that all people understand that the Labour family is

:40:22.:40:26.

united in saying that it is in our economic interest, for jobs,

:40:27.:40:30.

investment, growth, security and our influence in the world, James. The

:40:31.:40:33.

world is changing, and it won't go back to where it was before. Written

:40:34.:40:37.

walking away will give us less influence in the world. If you're

:40:38.:40:42.

going to tackle migration, refugees, conflict, climate change, you have

:40:43.:40:46.

to do that by working with your neighbours. -- Britain walking away.

:40:47.:40:53.

Our relationship with our continental neighbours is really

:40:54.:40:56.

important to being able to influence what happens in the world,

:40:57.:41:00.

particularly for our children and grandchildren. You mentioned the

:41:01.:41:04.

polls, and they do show support among Labour posters. It is

:41:05.:41:11.

swinging. More people are moving into the Leave rather than the

:41:12.:41:15.

Remain camp will stop how has your party got things so wrong so far?

:41:16.:41:18.

Yellow might the British people, in the end, will make the decision

:41:19.:41:23.

about whether we will remain or leave. It is a responsibility every

:41:24.:41:28.

single one of us has. There are people who have not yet made up

:41:29.:41:32.

their mind, and I do think that both the benefits that Europe has brought

:41:33.:41:37.

in terms of jobs, investment and growth, and regions like the

:41:38.:41:41.

north-east, countries like Wales, they understand instinctively the

:41:42.:41:45.

importance of the support that comes from Europe and the opportunities

:41:46.:41:47.

that being part of this huge single market provides. I think a lot of

:41:48.:41:54.

people who have not yet made up their mind may say at the end of the

:41:55.:41:57.

day, I don't like this that about the EU. This is not a referendum on

:41:58.:42:01.

whether we love of thing about Europe. It is about whether we stay

:42:02.:42:05.

on leave. And I think a lot of people will say, you know what, I

:42:06.:42:09.

don't think this is the right step to take, because we are literally

:42:10.:42:13.

better together in an uncertain world by working in partnership with

:42:14.:42:17.

others. That is what, in the end, is the important thing about remaining

:42:18.:42:20.

in the EU. The public will decide. They will.

:42:21.:42:26.

Thank you, Hilary Benn. We will continue our conversation with

:42:27.:42:29.

Hilary Benn on our Facebook page right after Newsnight comes off

:42:30.:42:32.

there. He will take questions lie from our green room. -- live from

:42:33.:42:47.

our greenroom. Kirsty, I wonder whether a regional impact fund could

:42:48.:42:51.

affect things in the area where you are.

:42:52.:42:56.

That remains to be seen. We are joint by the shadow civil society

:42:57.:43:01.

Minister, and a former steelworker who supports Ukip and who voted in

:43:02.:43:07.

1975 to be out of the EU. First of all, and, not only is there a device

:43:08.:43:14.

between Remain in the Conservatives and Labour Party, but there are now

:43:15.:43:18.

seems to be a divide in labour about whether re-movement is sacrosanct.

:43:19.:43:22.

Where do you stand? It is important that Tom brought this to the surface

:43:23.:43:25.

because a ghost of the art of the issues. In this area, I have spoken

:43:26.:43:30.

to many people have been affected in terms of wages being pushed down. We

:43:31.:43:34.

need to talk about it and have solutions. There is nothing you can

:43:35.:43:38.

do on free movement itself within the countries that exist within the

:43:39.:43:42.

EU at the moment. It is all very well talking about new countries,

:43:43.:43:46.

but you can't do anything. You can have these discussions when you are

:43:47.:43:50.

at the table. In our manifesto last year, we wanted to stop companies

:43:51.:43:58.

from undercutting wages here. We have to have a thoughtful process to

:43:59.:44:02.

deliver this, and we have to look at practical solutions, not just bury

:44:03.:44:07.

our heads. Frank you worked in the steel industry all your life, and

:44:08.:44:11.

now you're having to take other jobs because the steel industry is

:44:12.:44:14.

disappearing. You have been speaking to workers who have their own

:44:15.:44:20.

concerns. I am speaking to a lot of union men from different walks of

:44:21.:44:24.

life. Only the other day, I had a chap come to my house. He was

:44:25.:44:32.

worried that there might be a shutdown at ICI. The chemicals

:44:33.:44:38.

company. Yes, across from where I live. He was a welder, a skilled

:44:39.:44:44.

man. When I got the details from another union chap, there was

:44:45.:44:49.

actually 70% foreign labour on that site. Now, what others might say to

:44:50.:44:56.

you is, your welder friend and others could go and work in mainland

:44:57.:45:02.

Europe. I don't think a lot of them... A lot of them had been there

:45:03.:45:07.

before. The chap I spoke to, he was working in Holland for a time. But

:45:08.:45:14.

like everywhere else, you get a bit homesick, so you come back, and you

:45:15.:45:18.

expect to find work in your own area. With the loss of steel, the

:45:19.:45:23.

chemical industry has been decimated through Europe, so there is less and

:45:24.:45:30.

less work. Is your allegiance to Ukip to do with the economy or to do

:45:31.:45:37.

with the issue of immigration? Is none, really. It started when Tony

:45:38.:45:42.

Blair went into power. That was when the Labour Party didn't exist any

:45:43.:45:47.

more. Right. So you were a Labour man up until then? I was. And, you

:45:48.:45:53.

will not fix this in nine days. It is becoming a big divide, and it

:45:54.:45:58.

seeks -- and it seems extraordinary to me that political leaders are

:45:59.:46:02.

changing the script so close to a referendum. It sounds as if people

:46:03.:46:06.

are being expedient in order to change the goat, without any ability

:46:07.:46:12.

to deliver change. It is important to talk about the number one issue

:46:13.:46:16.

on the doorstep. It is not enough to say we are listening but we don't

:46:17.:46:21.

have solutions. You spoke to Hilary Benn today and you heard him there -

:46:22.:46:25.

years at odds with Tom Watson's view. We have to have the

:46:26.:46:31.

discussion, but there is a range of views in the political parties and

:46:32.:46:36.

on the doorstep. We have to be in Europe to get companies to come and

:46:37.:46:40.

invest here. We can talk about the practicalities and how to protect

:46:41.:46:44.

jobs once we are at the table. You think it is on a knife edge? Yes.

:46:45.:46:53.

And you, too? Thank you for joining us tonight. That is all we have time

:46:54.:46:55.

for tonight.

:46:56.:47:02.

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