14/06/2016 Newsnight


Newsnight is live in Middlesbrough, could the Labour heartlands vote to Brexit? And is also live in Orlando as America reacts.

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All this week, we're on our Referendum Road trip,


and we've moved our Newsnight studio truck south from Scotland


Tonight, we're live in Middlesbrough - a Labour heartland


where at the last election, Ukip have surged into second place -


to find out if Jeremy Corbyn's Remain message is what people


How many of you are thinking of voting Out?


The biggest single thing that people are talking about is


What is clear is that they don't understand why they


can't talk about it with their politicians and why their


The Remain campaign wheels out its not-so-secret weapons


Tonight, I'll ask this one why so many of their traditional voters


seem to think they're firing blanks on immigration.


Over the course of your professional lifetimes,


wounds would you estimate that you have each treated?


Probably all the fingers in this room would not count it up.


In Orlando, the killings have quickly become polemic.


Those on the right want to make this about Isis and immigration.


Those on the left want to make it about gun laws.


Those in the LGBT community feel they are getting lost in a political


narrative that has forgotten about them.


Good evening from Middlesbrough, where the smell of its remaining


chemical industry is in the air. We have parked our Referendum Road Trip


truck in front of the town hall in the heart of the town. In a moment,


I will be asking an audience of local people and politicians what


they want to hear from Labour in particular on Europe.


All this week, the Newsnight truck is travelling north to south,


from Glasgow to Middlesbrough, to Leicester, Chipping Norton


and finally on Friday, to Bognor Regis, to find out


what people really think about the EU.


Last night, we were in Glasgow and today, the Newsnight crew


took the Road Show truck across the beautiful Pennines


and into the industrial town of Middlesbrough.


Past a piece of classic engineering, the famous Transporter


Here, there is a proud industrial heritage in steel chemicals,


where people still call themselves the Smoggies,


Unemployment is well above the national average.


And this is amongst the most deprived boroughs in England.


But there's pride in this town, and they are proud, too,


of their famous sons, from the Explorer and navigator


Captain Cook, to the football visionary, Brian Clough,


And they are celebrating present-day footballing glory, too.


They have just been promoted back to the Premier League.


So in this one-time industrial heartland, has the EU been


a power for good or simply exacerbated its decline?


First, we have a small audience of voters from Middlesbrough, including


some first-time voters, with a wide variety of views. First, Ray Kelly.


You are porting for Leave. Why? To get back our democracy, our


Government and our border controls. -- you're to me. You want to stop


immigration most of all? Not to stop but to control it. We need


immigration but we need to control it and we can't control it at this


moment in time. From your point of view, are you going to vote to


re-main or leave? I think you are a Leave man. I am. I am a guy of older


values. When the EU was first made, it was about making a better world


and a better market. Those values are long gone and we have two cement


the values again. Where have we gone wrong in values? Isn't the idea of


bringing other countries into the fold very much one of a bigger


European family? You can bring in all the countries you want. We want


to bring in Algeria and places like that. I am all for immigration and


they bring so much value to the UK economy, a lot more than... Myself,


I feel that we should look at UK citizens and how they contribute to


the EU in general, and look away from the immigration. Terry, you


have another view. Mine is the NHS. I feel like if we do leave, there


will be huge detrimentally affects to the NHS. And yet, people say that


if we do leave, there will be more money to spend on it. They say it


will be put into the NHS, whereas a lot of there are -- whereas there


are a lot of other places that need to go to. Who knows? It is a big


gamble. We are also close to the art gallery here. Allister Hutton, tell


me, what does the EU do for you and your gallery? We get direct EU


funding, and not just that but collaborations with museums and


universities and cultural organisations all over Europe. Don't


you have that with America, Australia and Canada? We do, but


these are our neighbours and we are in it with them. The only way to


work is to collaborate. Isolation is from a past era. Is this the best


use of the EU money, do you think is Mike yes, because it goes into


skills, training, education, into a whole host of things that support


the culture and economy of the region. I would like to speak to


Oliver. You are a first-time voter, argue nervous? Is a bit. It is a


question of, where do you go with this? So you haven't decided? No.


What would persuade you? I think it will be a lot of business. We are


the future of the country, and everything else, and that makes us,


I feel, the most important, and I feel we haven't been targeted enough


in terms of political campaigns. What about you, where do you stand?


I am undecided. I think it would be a these -- it would be easier for


first-time voters if we had decided ourselves the pros and cons of


remaining on leaving. You only have ten days left, and you feel the


politicians are not giving you what you want to hear? Yes. Maybe you


will get answers later on. Labour grandees are out


in force this week, pushing the case for Remain,


as surveys suggest many Labour voters don't even know their party's


position on the referendum. So how disconnected is Labour


from its industrial heartland? The now-defunct Redcar steelworks


loom out of the fog. They closed for good eight months


ago, with more than 3000 workers 175 years of steel-making,


consigned to history. OK, so what we are doing


in the theory side of the lesson At Middlesbrough College's Stem


Training Centre, amongst the apprentices, a pot


of ?1.2 million has been allocated specifically to retrain people


who lost their jobs in steel. With opportunities for overtime,


wages in the steel This former electrical supervisor


at Redcar has taken a pay cut to become a trainer at the college,


although he's very grateful What happened at Redcar has


influenced his decision But you got the message


that they couldn't Yes, because of EU rules,


which were stopping them In another classroom,


a one-day course Five here lost their jobs


when the steelworks shut. In the past, they would have been


Labour through and through and might have listened to what


the party is saying How many of you are


thinking of voting In? How many of you are


thinking of voting Out? You know, we are systematically


losing industries The steel industry, the shipbuilding


industry, the fisheries. No, I don't think


it is globalisation. If traditional Labour voters are key


to Britain's continuing EU membership, Labour needs to work


a lot harder to persuade them. Middlesbrough has been Labour


for decades by the party's message Middlesbrough has been Labour


for decades but the party's message does not appear to be reaching


working-class voters. This is going to be a dry bar,


that means a bar, that looks like an adult-only bar environment


but no booze. Andy Preston is a local


philanthropist. When open, this site will offer


work and opportunities He left the Labour Party


a few years ago but is He has picked up a disconnect


between Labour and its core voters. The biggest single thing that people


are talking about is immigration. What is clear is that they don't


understand why they can't talk about it with their politicians


and why their politicians What has gone on is that people have


seen their area change, physically. It looks different and feels


different, and they have got Labour's unwillingness


and discomfort at talking about the concept of immigration


is really impacting On the 23rd of June,


I'm voting Out and the reason is, apart from the massive immigration,


I mean, we should now be taking Caring for her granddaughters takes


up Jane's every moment. The children's parents are addicts


and the kids would be in care You cut down on your bills,


electric and gas. You don't use as much,


you are frightened to use too You have just got to be


careful with your money. It is just the love you have got


for them and they need When you are struggling,


the sense that others are getting Like, for other, like,


for our own people. I know I should not say that,


but it's our own and bringing No one can get any money or anything


like that, you know, the allowances they are entitled to,


they are cutting that back as well, so they have got more money


for the other people When you speak to people


round here about the Labour Party and how Labour wants them to vote


In, are they listening, No, not at all, they are not


listening at all. Labour is doing nothing


at all for them whatsoever. They have decided that they want


to vote Out and stay out. Labour was for working class


but there's no jobs no more. There's no working class for them


so they prefer to vote Out. Just how widespread is the desire


amongst voters to leave the EU in a region which has


benefited from European money As you know, this is a table,


which was Boosbeck-designed... In the 1930s, Boosbeck was a scheme


that had unemployed Artist Adam Clarke has reinvented it


with help from Middlesbrough's Institute of Modern


Art and EU funding. The idea is to reskill and give


employment to people in the area. All here are left-leaning


and support Britain's EU membership. I don't think that leaving the EU


will do workers any favours. I think we need to be represented


at a European level as well. When people are poor,


it is very easy to point I would not say justified


but I would say Things have got harder again


recently with the cuts. Do they have an answer


to Labour's travails? I think it is almost the politics


of personality that is required. Personally, I think Jeremy Corbyn


is doing a good job. But I think traditional voters


need somebody who is, you know, in the vein


of a Nigel Farage, but with different political views


of course, who can persuade them I think what we have had


historically is that hard-working people in the past relied


on the Labour Party to look after their interests


with workers' rights, with pay, Now, people are feeling


that the Labour Party and other parties are not looking after them


in the same way. What we are seeing here is not


necessarily a desertion of the Labour Party but a bit


of a rebellion I predict that to continue,


as people nationally move away But that is the challenge Labour has


got, to re-engage with these people The question for both sides in this


referendum, can Labour do that With me now is the shadow civil


society Minister. Those sentiments from the film, I know that you think


there is a terrible sense of urgency, and you are quite critical


of the Labour leadership. Critical of the campaign so far. We really


have to get out and talk to people. Today was mixed on the doorstep, but


there is palpable anger on Teesside. We have been devastated in the last


six months, with the loss of the steelworks. That is thousands of


jobs, and not just deal workers, childminders and window cleaners.


People are angry and they are hitting out. We cannot afford for


people to cut off their nose despite their face.


But again, the idea that there have been benefits on the EU in terms of


the money but in that people don't see it in everyday lives? We are an


net beneficiary of what comes out of the EU but we have to tell Biba


that. We've got fantastic asset on Deeside, the port, the chemical


industry rely on a market in Europe. If we don't invest, we will make the


situation worse and the situation we saw this year will be industrial


self harm. I know you think London appears to be a long way away? It


does, London has got a long way away, particularly in this process.


We felt people don't understand the steel crisis and we think they don't


understand the fight. They have other report says all the jobs have


been absorbed which they haven't. London does not understand and we


need the leadership. I was delighted to see Jeremy and the labour


movement come out today and say it's about workers' rights. People are


saying and the report said, a lot of people don't know where Labour


stands? We found that on the doorstep, Labour voters who are


undecided about voting and they want to know what we think, how it


affects their lives, pay and conditions, particularly women. We


have a big job to do. What we heard in the film is that one of Labour's


big failures is being prepared to talk about immigration? I think


that's right, we have not been prepared to talk about issues like


immigration, there are issues like security, crime, anti-social


behaviour, we have to grasp and listen to what people are telling us


on the doorstep and if we stick our head in the stand, -- in the sand,


we're not in touch with people. Tom Watson came out today and made an


important statement, we have to look at free movement because people have


seen their wages depressed which was not because of free movement. You


are going to stay here and we are to talk about what you can and cannot


do on free movement but now, we are getting the latest from our


political editor, Nick Watt, who joins us from London. I gather that


the Labour leaders and big figures have been out in force today?


Yes, they have indeed been out in force and they share the concerns


that you are hearing there from Anna. What we are hearing the night


is those fears have become so great that there are senior Labour figures


in the Remain campaign who are saying to their conservative


colleagues, "We have, the Prime Minister has got to talk about


immigration because this is the issue which is in danger of meaning


that Labour voters deserve the Gabi main campaign. We understand it's


difficult for the Prime Minister to talk about, and he does not want to


talk about the net migration target but Yvette Cooper, the former Shadow


Home Secretary has said the night and has been telling her former


colleagues the Prime Minister should say he could use for example the UK


presidency of the EU next year to talk about possible modest reforms


to freedom of movement. But the message from number ten tonight is


no, we want to focus this campaign on the economy and they are so wary


of talking about immigration that they won't even talk about one of


the things Gordon Brown and Yvette Cooper has been talking about that


was in the Conservative manifesto, establishing a special fund to help


areas that are struggling under the impact of immigrants.


Service ends of this array with nine days to go but tomorrow is going to


be one of the more eventful days on the campaign? Yes, tomorrow, George


Osborne will live up to the number ten commitment to try to yank this


campaign back to the economy. He will share a platform with his


predecessor as Chancellor, Alistair Darling, and they will say that IFS


estimates suggest there will be a ?30 billion like: the public


finances if we voted to leave and the way you deal with that, they are


talking about an emergency Brexit budget, which would have ?15 billion


of tax increases, ?15 billion of spending cuts. Why are they doing


this? They want to reprise the success they believe they had in


signalling the economic risks in the Scottish independence referendum and


there was interestingly, turmoil on the markets today, a flight to


safety as the FTSE 100 went below 6000 but the first time since


February, and the second thing they want to do is to say that Vote


Leave's idea of spending an extra ?100 million a week on the NHS is a


con because there would be a big hit to the economy but Vote Leave are


saying it is nonsense and scaremongering and they say they


will outline a positive vision tomorrow of how they can take the UK


out of the EU in a step-by-step process by 2019. Thank you for


joining us. We are going to be back in


Middlesbrough for more conversation before the end of the programme but


now to Emily in Dando where the shock of the nightclub killings


continue to reverberate across the whole of the United States. -- in


Orlando. Good evening from Orlando,


a city whose tragedy has somehow turned into the backdrop for one


of the fiercest political rows of this already


extraordinary electoral race. President Obama unleashed


what felt like seven years of frustration


towards the Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump,


warming that his anti-Muslim rhetoric would drive


many young Americans Today Trump, who has


consistently called Obama soft on terrorists, suggested


obliquely the President may actually be aligned with the terrorists,


a conspiracy theory too far And what of the community


here itself? Today, surgeons


at Orlando's hospital told me they treated over1,000


victims of gun crime every year. And we heard from a survivor who


played dead to stay alive. But perhaps the most arresting


details came of the killer himself, as witnesses suggested


he might have been gay. How do you describe a man


who was angry, unstable, America has called Omar Mateen


a terrorist, a radical Islamist, a homophobe and increasingly now,


a self hater. As witnesses say he frequented gay


clubs himself over the course of several years, was he a man


so conflicted with his sexuality in a religion that did not tolerate


homosexuality, and if so, does that make America's response


to this any different? I met him one time,


at the bar, he was trying He was a homosexual


and he was trying to pick up men. He would walk up to them


and then he would, maybe, put his arm around them


or something, and maybe try to get them to dance


a little bit or something, Others have come forward saying


the killer's profile was on Grindr He might have been casing out


victims, or he might have At the LGBT Centre in Orlando,


they're offering support and counselling to survivors,


families and friends. The director says he recognises


the picture that is emerging. It seems more leaning


towards a closeted LGBT person, who needed to take


their vengeance out on their own demons


and walked into this club To try to cleanse themselves


of their demons and take it Adam, a mental health counsellor,


says he has seen the pattern many times but says it is easier


for America to point to an external There's definitely an element of,


you know, people politicising this. But I think there is something


larger going on there. This is an LGBT issue,


this is a mental health issue, this is something that we as Orlandoans


and Americans have to figure This isn't just, there's


an outside bad guy out Certainly, the mass shooting has


exposed two presidential nominees to a sharp examination


of their political instincts Now, Hillary Clinton,


or as I call her, Crooked Hillary She refuses to even say


the words radical Islam. Americans, we don't need


conspiracy theories and pathological


self-congratulations. We need leadership, common-sense,


and concrete plans, because we are facing


a brutal enemy. By focusing on the Orlando


killer's allegiance to Isis, it has become much easier for those


on the right of American politics to talk about the need


for new immigration measures But for many Americans,


this is a pretty domestic tragedy, both more mundane and more


intractable, that toxic combination of what happens when mental health


issues meet easy access to firearms. At the Orlando hospital,


we hear powerful testimony from one I wish I could remember his face


or his name, that cop, because I want to say


I'm grateful to him. So he starts to drag me out,


across the street, to the Wendy's. I'm grateful for him but the floor


was covered in glass. So he's dragging me out


while I'm getting cut I don't feel pain but I just feel


all this blood on me, He just drops me off,


across the street, and I look over Surgeons tell a packed room


of global press they still have 27 of the shooting victims,


six in intensive care. Quick question to the surgeons,


I'm just doing the maths, over the course of your professional


lifetimes, how many victims of gunshot wounds would you estimate


that you had each treated? So you would each say


more than 10,000? Barack Obama arrives


here in Orlando on Thursday, in the midst of possibly


the craziest confection yet, intimations from Donald Trump that


America's president may even be complicit in terror activities


by Islamic extremists. This community, survivors


and victims, are desperate for all of this and all of us to go


away, but at this point in the electoral, presidential


cycle, nothing, it seems, is ever just about an


appalling tragedy itself. Joining me down the line from Los


Angeles is the founder of the Moral Courage project. Thank you for


joining us. Am I right in thinking that you describe yourself as


lesbian and Muslim without conflict? Well, without conflict, for sure. I


came out to my very devout Muslim mother many years ago. She told me,


"You are my daughter and my love for you is unconditional". So I have


certainly been blessed with a wonderful parent but in addition to


that, I will say that commune, we Muslims are taught that God is


omniscient and all-powerful. -- I will say that, you know. All knowing


and all-powerful so surely he knew when he was creating somebody like


me. Does make mistakes? Muslims would say absolutely not. So I have


been able through the love of my family and the love of God to


reconcile all that I am, rather than leader vulcanised life. I'm very


much at peace with being gay and being Muslim. -- lead a vulcanised


life. And we were hearing elements of the Orlando Keller's life, there,


suggestions he had been on gay dating apps and frequenting some of


the clubs himself over the years, that he had beaten his first wife


badly, to the point where she was removed by her parents. Does this


spell any pattern of behaviour to you? Does this sound like a man who


is a self hater? Honestly, there are so many cases of wife abuse and


domestic violence all over the world, that it would be reductionist


and irresponsible for me at least to say that yes, this guy is absolutely


a self hater, or was. But clearly, if he was scoping out potential six


partners, or potential victims, on apps like Grindr, there was


something in him that was more than just religious, it was more than


just angry. It may have been some kind of loathing instinct that


brought him to do what he did. We simply don't know. You sound as if


he were very lucky in the love of your parents and the support you had


-- you were. But many people of all will it and we'll find it very hard,


particularly -- all religions will find it very hard, particularly in


this case, as it seems, to be a practising Muslim and a homosexual.


What is the path forward there? Yes, you're right, many Muslims do find


it difficult and when I speak with Young Muslims all over the world,


one of the most common questions they ask of me is," how do I tell my


parents that I am not straight?" Some will use the word gay but that


is certainly a much wider concern within the Muslim community than


most imams and elders will want to acknowledge. The path forward is


actually cultural more than it is religious. You know, in Arab


culture, there is a tradition, a custom known as on. While it sounds


honourable, it actually is not. On refers to the reputation of the


entire family. If somebody is accused of trying is Chris in moral


codes, not only -- of transgressing moral codes, not only have you


shamed yourself according to this cost of honour, you have change your


entire family. Imagine the pressure that puts on young Muslims to shut


up and conform. The path forward is to redefine honour, to meet


individual dignity, individual integrity, and wholeness, rather


than any one of us being the property of our families. So do you


believe there is a clash of civilisations between these two?


Emily, I don't believe that. Here I sit before you, live, as someone who


has, you rightly pointed out, is completely reconciled as both gay


and Muslim. I was born in Africa. Very different values than the


country in which I grew up, which is Canada. It is that chlorella is and


that freedom that allowed me to ask many, many questions, both of myself


and of others. And thank God for those freedoms. Because that is what


allowed me to understand that you don't have to be one or the other,


that God has created us complicated, and any god that is majestic will


not be manufacturing widgets, he will be creating truly divine


creatures. Thank you for joining us. We appreciate you joining us


tonight. Even though it feels like some of


the politics is overtaking the narrative, this is a community that


is asking many questions, trying to understand where the Leeds lead, if


you like, whether it is about mental health issues in the community,


whether it is about how a man who has been checked out by the FBI


three times can still go out and buy a gun. This is a community that,


essentially, needs to be left in peace.


When Labour politicians talk about it, they invariably


When Labour politicians don't talk about it,


they arguably end up in even more trouble.


But they have to find a trouble-free way to talk about immigration now,


with most of the data describing it as the engine driving traditional


supporters into the arms of the Leave campaign.


The problem is, what are they going to say?


Joining me now is Shadow Foreign Secretary, Hilary Benn.


We must be again by calibrating using the context of the Shadow


Cabinet. You know that toe... Tom Watson has called for a look at free


movement. On the campaign trail in tooting, Jeremy Corbyn has said that


free movement of workers is intrinsic to the European Union,


there has to be free movement of people, and that is what we have to


defend because it is intrinsic to the helping. Back of a fag packet


calculation, Mr Watson's edition is supported by Ed balls, Andy Burnham,


and we know that Jeremy Corbyn's position is different. Who are you


closest to? Yellow might we heard in the film the people that you were


speaking to. There is pressure on some communities, and Redcar is


suffering because of the closure of the steelworks, and there are things


that we can do. For example, when it comes to new member states possibly


joining the EU, we have complete control over that because we can


determine the terms on which they join because each member state has a


veto on that. But we're not going to help deal with any of those


pressures that people feel in communities up and down the country.


I'm afraid, the notion that we don't talk about immigration, I talk about


it a great deal to my constituents, travelling around the country, and I


talked about it in a speech that I made yesterday. Of course, we talk


about it, but we will not deal with the problem by damaging our economy,


particularly in the north-east, where 58% of exports go to the EU.


I am interested in the Labour versus labour position of Mr Corbyn appears


to have said this evening that the free movement of people within the


EU is sacrosanct. Mr Watson appears to be suggesting that a future


Labour Government or Conservative Government would have to have it up


for grabs, it would have to be negotiable. What is your personal


position? My position is that, yes indeed, the current set up in the EU


is that free movement is part the deal, both into Britain, and 1.2


million Brits who exercise their rights of free movement elsewhere.


Of course, it is right to have a debate will stop what you are


reporting on is, there is a debate taking place. Between the leader and


deputy leader of the Labour Party. It is the most important political


decision in a generation and you are having a debate about what your


position is. Yellow might we are not having a debate about what our


position is. Today, you saw the Labour family come together at


Congress house, the Shadow Cabinet, members of the NEC, trade union


leaders, all saying with one voice, the right thing for Britain, for


workers, for jobs, investment and growth, is to remain in the EU. You


can't, on one hand, say that Labour isn't listening to people on the


doorstep. If we are having a debate about what the right thing to do is


going forward, hopefully after Britain has voted to remain, you


would say that was a good thing, wouldn't you?


Tom Watson was stating that the current rules on freedom of movement


should be reviewed. Jeremy Corbyn appears to be insisting that they


should not. I will have to lick my finger and see which way the wind is


blowing - you seem to be closer to Corbyn. I said that we should look


at how the system works. I have already said to you that when it


comes to new member states, which is an area where we do have control, it


would be within our rights to say, for new member states, yes, you can


join the single market, which is important to jobs, but we will be


term and how free movement applies to those countries. I think that


would be a sensible thing to do, and we have the ability do it, because


every member state has a veto. Have you just come up with a third by? I


don't know about that! Look, the people are talking about it, it is a


big issue in the referendum, so it is right and proper that we should


talk about it, too. But that does not get away from the most important


point, which is that weakening our economy - and it is unusual to get


most economists do agree that the economy will be hit when we leave.


Every study confirms it. Warnings from the Governor of the Bank of


England and the IMF. For all of them to say that we will have a weaker


and less prosperous economy if we leave, how will that help us deal


with the pressures we heard about in the film, on housing, the NHS and


schools? And the north-east, of course, there has been changing the


industrial make-up of that part of the country, as there has been


elsewhere, but what else is going on there, and where is the most


productive car plant in the whole of Europe? Millions have been spent on


a new train manufacturing plant. Importantly, it is because we are


part of the largest single market in the world. Leaving that and creating


uncertainty about future trading relationships does nothing to


address the concerns that people have. In fact, it makes it worse. It


is all about numbers. There are the currency numbers, the money numbers,


growing larger every day, the amount that we have lost on the market, the


amount we might lose in the future, versus the number of people who


might come here in the event of such and such a country joining. Are you


saying to the people we saw in the film tonight, there is not a great


deal that we can do about your concerns regarding immigration, but


I promise you will be even worse off if we leave? Is that the message, or


does the Labour Party have any line on telling people why the reality of


immigration is different and better than their perception? It is a


complex issue, but I will give an example. The NHS depends, in part,


on doctors and nurses from the EU and other parts of the world who


have come to bring their skills. One in five care workers come from


outside the United Kingdom. EU migrants in the last 15 years have


contributed ?20 billion more to the public finances than they have


received in any form of benefits. What is it being spent on? Paying


for schools, hospitals and other public services. The Government


could establish a migration impact fund. It would be a good idea, such


a good idea that the last Labour Government had one. David Cameron


scrapped it when he came to power. That would provide additional


financial assistance to areas where there are additional pressures


because of the nature of migration. If you go to Boston, and you did a


programme from their two three weeks ago, those people are picking the


vegetables and keeping the industry growing, but it creates pressures in


Boston itself. Wouldn't it be sensible to have a migration impact


on? It is something David Cameron could do. It is a question of a


Conservative Government that is not prepared to act. Yvette Cooper has


been privately suggesting rather robustly that we need to start


debating immigration in the Labour Party. It is the job of all


politicians to listen to respond to what the public is saying. At the


same time, our responsibility, particularly with nine days to go,


is to to people, why, in our case, the labour movement is united. And


it is important that all people understand that the Labour family is


united in saying that it is in our economic interest, for jobs,


investment, growth, security and our influence in the world, James. The


world is changing, and it won't go back to where it was before. Written


walking away will give us less influence in the world. If you're


going to tackle migration, refugees, conflict, climate change, you have


to do that by working with your neighbours. -- Britain walking away.


Our relationship with our continental neighbours is really


important to being able to influence what happens in the world,


particularly for our children and grandchildren. You mentioned the


polls, and they do show support among Labour posters. It is


swinging. More people are moving into the Leave rather than the


Remain camp will stop how has your party got things so wrong so far?


Yellow might the British people, in the end, will make the decision


about whether we will remain or leave. It is a responsibility every


single one of us has. There are people who have not yet made up


their mind, and I do think that both the benefits that Europe has brought


in terms of jobs, investment and growth, and regions like the


north-east, countries like Wales, they understand instinctively the


importance of the support that comes from Europe and the opportunities


that being part of this huge single market provides. I think a lot of


people who have not yet made up their mind may say at the end of the


day, I don't like this that about the EU. This is not a referendum on


whether we love of thing about Europe. It is about whether we stay


on leave. And I think a lot of people will say, you know what, I


don't think this is the right step to take, because we are literally


better together in an uncertain world by working in partnership with


others. That is what, in the end, is the important thing about remaining


in the EU. The public will decide. They will.


Thank you, Hilary Benn. We will continue our conversation with


Hilary Benn on our Facebook page right after Newsnight comes off


there. He will take questions lie from our green room. -- live from


our greenroom. Kirsty, I wonder whether a regional impact fund could


affect things in the area where you are.


That remains to be seen. We are joint by the shadow civil society


Minister, and a former steelworker who supports Ukip and who voted in


1975 to be out of the EU. First of all, and, not only is there a device


between Remain in the Conservatives and Labour Party, but there are now


seems to be a divide in labour about whether re-movement is sacrosanct.


Where do you stand? It is important that Tom brought this to the surface


because a ghost of the art of the issues. In this area, I have spoken


to many people have been affected in terms of wages being pushed down. We


need to talk about it and have solutions. There is nothing you can


do on free movement itself within the countries that exist within the


EU at the moment. It is all very well talking about new countries,


but you can't do anything. You can have these discussions when you are


at the table. In our manifesto last year, we wanted to stop companies


from undercutting wages here. We have to have a thoughtful process to


deliver this, and we have to look at practical solutions, not just bury


our heads. Frank you worked in the steel industry all your life, and


now you're having to take other jobs because the steel industry is


disappearing. You have been speaking to workers who have their own


concerns. I am speaking to a lot of union men from different walks of


life. Only the other day, I had a chap come to my house. He was


worried that there might be a shutdown at ICI. The chemicals


company. Yes, across from where I live. He was a welder, a skilled


man. When I got the details from another union chap, there was


actually 70% foreign labour on that site. Now, what others might say to


you is, your welder friend and others could go and work in mainland


Europe. I don't think a lot of them... A lot of them had been there


before. The chap I spoke to, he was working in Holland for a time. But


like everywhere else, you get a bit homesick, so you come back, and you


expect to find work in your own area. With the loss of steel, the


chemical industry has been decimated through Europe, so there is less and


less work. Is your allegiance to Ukip to do with the economy or to do


with the issue of immigration? Is none, really. It started when Tony


Blair went into power. That was when the Labour Party didn't exist any


more. Right. So you were a Labour man up until then? I was. And, you


will not fix this in nine days. It is becoming a big divide, and it


seeks -- and it seems extraordinary to me that political leaders are


changing the script so close to a referendum. It sounds as if people


are being expedient in order to change the goat, without any ability


to deliver change. It is important to talk about the number one issue


on the doorstep. It is not enough to say we are listening but we don't


have solutions. You spoke to Hilary Benn today and you heard him there -


years at odds with Tom Watson's view. We have to have the


discussion, but there is a range of views in the political parties and


on the doorstep. We have to be in Europe to get companies to come and


invest here. We can talk about the practicalities and how to protect


jobs once we are at the table. You think it is on a knife edge? Yes.


And you, too? Thank you for joining us tonight. That is all we have time


for tonight.


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