15/06/2016 Newsnight

We're in Leicester tonight - a city united in pride

at its winning football team, but as divided as the rest

of the country as to who should win the referendum.

# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?

# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?

The city loves its sport, but the referendum is

A warning this evening, that Britain may get a red card.

From the moment that Parliament had passed the legislation

and enacted it into law, I think they would have

been entitled to say, you've chosen to go, just like that.

And we can no longer have a relationship

And however we vote, politics may never be the same.

The Prime Minister's former confidant Steve Hilton is with us

to tell us why he's on the opposite side to his old chum, David Cameron.

Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all of the time?

And we've been to the Orlando killer's home town in Florida.

I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.

We've brought our roadshow right here, in the shadow

of the cathedral, which is famously now home to the remains

Back in his day, the great power struggle was between

It ran for decades, and led to political

And today, in a less violent way, we find politics in turmoil again.

The great schism now is partly between Remain and Leave -

but increasingly it also seems to be defined by broader philosophies that

Are you for radical change or the status quo?

For the European model of society, or for something different?

We're exploring these divisions around the country this week.

The Newsnight truck had to pack up and say farewell to a damp

Middlesbrough this morning for the next leg of its

It's stopping in a variety of contrasting locations this week.

It started in Glasgow on Monday, journeyed through the English North

and Midlands, and it's heading to the market town

of Chipping Norton tomorrow and finally

But it's arrived in Leicester today.

A Midlands city that's been on something of a winning streak.

A location with a great sense of history, going back to Roman

times, with the most famous nondescript car park in the world,

But Leicester has also successfully tied itself to the future,

a big higher education sector, two successful universities,

a specialism in space science and home to the National Space Centre.

It is one of the most diverse cities in the country, it has attracted

immigrants for many decades, after many of the Ugandan Asians

settled here when kicked out of their country in the '70s.

Fewer than half of the city population is white British.

Leicester is firmly on its way into Europe in one respect.

It will be playing in the Champions League next season.

The local team's success has invigorated the city's

sense of identity, but what does that mean?

Is that the plucky spirit that says we can survive alone and should

leave the EU or do winners feel that the future lies in Europe?

Labour council, Labour mayor, two Labour MPs.

Labour is a broad coalition, as is the Conservative Party,

and potentially the EU threatens to upset those coalitions.

Before we look at some of that, let's talk to our political editor

And Nick, we hear tonight there is a stark warning about how

Vote Leave's blueprint for leaving the EU could actually lead to us

Yes, I've been talking to the former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve,

who has been telling me that the Vote Leave road map for taking

Britain out of the EU could lead to what is describing as a chaotic

dejection. We've seen some serious blue on blue shelling in the

referendum campaign but here we have a former Tory Attorney General

saying that the current Tory Lord Chancellor is laying out a plan that

would place Britain in breach of its EU treaty obligations and would

raise questions about Britain's international reputation for

upholding the rule of law. They intend, even before we have left, to

remove the authority of the European Court of Justice, and to carry out a

number of other steps which would be in breach of our EU treaty

regulations. It would be possible for our partners to turn around and

say that we have effectively left the European Union and in those

circumstances the advantages of membership, including for example

access to the single market, have gone. At that point we would be

rejected? Effectively rejected. An interesting intervention by Dominic

Grieve. Just how bad do you think these Tory divisions are? The

atmosphere is pretty sour at the moment. This evening we had Michael

Gove suggesting he might resign from the Cabinet if George Osborne goes

ahead with his plan for a Brexit budget. Michael Gove and the Vote

Leave campaign say that the budget is scaremongering and is a panic

move and there would be no need for it. Now, George Osborne says that

Michael Gove and around 70 Conservative MPs who are making

those points are predictable and this is the usual campaign

skirmishes you would expect at this stage. George Osborne is saying

really that he wants to focus the campaign on the economy and there

will be some pretty significant events over the next 48-hour is.

Tomorrow night he delivers his annual speech at the Mansion house

in the presence of the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney.

George Osborne is having to write a speech on his own with a view

political advisers because the Treasury civil servants are not

allowed to help him at this stage -- with a few advisers. There is a

feeling in the Treasury that this is a crucial period because of Friday

we have the IMF delivering its annual report on the state of the UK

economy and guess what it's going to say? If you leave the EU there will

be a danger to the UK economy. Not all plain sailing for the

Chancellor, I've spoken to a former cabinet minister who knows the

chance well and he said of the Brexit budget, George is a gambler,

he has done a last throw of the dice to frighten people into staying in

the European Union and this cabinet minister fears it isn't working and

as things stand at the moment, he thinks that Britain is on the verge

of voting to leave and he is a Remain supporter. Thank you for

joining us. I'm joined here now,

by a prominent Brexit supporter, Once a close and senior

advisor to David Cameron, a friend too, he has always been

seen as more radical, Talking about the Brexit budget of

George Osborne, wondering what you thought of that, is that a

reasonable campaign technique? I saw it this morning and my heart sank,

to be honest. I think be the best response to it is what the Prime

Minister said, not that long ago, a few weeks ago when he said that

actually Britain would do perfectly fine outside the EU. We are Great

Britain and we can do great. He things that on balance we are better

off in, other people might have a different opinion. That's a

reasonable way of putting it but since he said that at the start of

the campaign, what's happened is that it's got less and less

reasonable and more hysterical. Today was the worst example of that.

Do you think the Chancellor has lost so much credibility as a result of

this that it's difficult to imagine him delivering a real budget now?

Can you trust him now? I wouldn't go as far as that, I would just say...

They keep telling us that it is a serious long-term decision, more

important than any general election, something that will affect us for 40

years. Please can we take it seriously? Are you satisfied with

the honesty of the Leave campaign? There is the 350 million a week, for

example. Are you happy with that? It isn't just about honesty. It is

putting forward an argument and actually explaining why people

should vote one way or the other. What you saw from the Leave campaign

today is serious positive proposals about what they would do in the

event of the vote going their way. That's a big contrast with the

entirely negative stuff we're hearing the other side. I'm

interested in the argument you've given for us leaving. You've framed

it as a battle between the people and the establishment. Yes. Explain

your argument because you've also used it to explain the popularity of

Donald Trump. There's something underlying the anger and frustration

that you are seeing, not just here, across Europe, but also in America,

the sense that for many years now, probably decades, the world has been

run according to a technocratic agenda that doesn't really change,

whoever is in power, an agenda that is uncritical of globalisation and

technological change, that prioritises efficiency above all

else and that is callous about the impact on real people and their

lives, and it do mine is -- it dehumanises them. People feel that

they can't control the things that matter to them. People who think

that Donald Trump is a disaster for the United States, should they also

assume that we are not on Steve Hilton's side in the argument?

Basically we don't want populist politics, therefore we should vote

to remain? I'm wondering if that... I would bring in Bernie Sanders on

the left. I don't think it is limited to one side. The real

argument isn't about populism, it's actually about democracy in the true

meaning of the word. In other words, people having a say and control over

the things that matter to them. Michael Gove said, I think I'm

quoting him correctly, people in this country have had enough of

experts. Do you agree? Is that an official doctrine of those who want

to leave? I think it's striking that when those who want us to stay in

the EU wheel out the technocratic elite who have this very common

view, this kind of group think about how things should be organised, they

have an interest in perpetuating the world they are in. I don't think

it's necessarily about experts. Doctors think that antibiotics help

you with bacteria, do you reject that advice? You would like an

expert trained and accredited mechanic? It isn't necessarily about

experts, it's about the opinion of a certain group of people who have

been in power and control, not just government but business and the

bureaucracy and is exemplified by what happens in Brussels. Is it one

group who encompasses Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas of the Greens and

encompasses David Cameron and George Osborne, the IMF? This isn't one big

cabal of people, it is quite a varied bunch. It is, but that

doesn't mean they are right. The real argument here is about how we

organise and govern ourselves in the face of what is a very rapidly

changing world, we can't predict what's going to happen in the

future. I think it comes down to the ability of us to control the things

that will enable us to boost our economy, create jobs. Why should the

public trust you, fairly established, married to a PR person,

you live in California, you are wealthy? Why should they trust you,

the company you are keeping in the argument, George Galloway, Nigel

Farage? A great question, it isn't about trusting me, it is about

trusting themselves, putting power in people's hands, that is what this

is about and that is what I have argued for in politics, not just in

relation to the EU, but the reforms we worked on in government, it is

about decentralising power, giving people control over the things that

matter to them. That is the way that the world is going. I see this

clearly where I run a business in Silicon Valley, a lot of it is

powered by technology and it is about a centralising power and

giving people control. That is happening everywhere apart from

government and the EU is the worst example of that. You worked for

David Cameron, a project to detoxify the Conservative Party, people you

are sitting on the opposite side of the debate, to change the party. You

know that if we vote the way that you would like us to vote, the

project is finished, isn't it? David Cameron is finished, the Tory party

will have changed and it's over. But the real project was not to

transform the Tory party but the country, to implement reforms to

public services, schools, welfare, to help people improve living

standards. That work will go on and I think that the best way of

continuing that and getting the kind of decentralisation of power that I

want to see at all levels is to vote lead and then for David Cameron to

stay on as Prime Minister because I can't think of anyone better to lead

the process of taking us out of the EU.

Do you think David Cameron will be Prime Minister in 18 months' time?

Yes. The idea that he should be deposed because of a referendum is

as anti-enigmatic as the EU itself. He was elected by the British people

last year for a full term, knowing that he was going to have a

referendum. There was no condition attached to that. He was elected by

the people of this country to serve as Prime Minister, and that is what

he should do. Thank you very much indeed.

Let's get more of the Leicester perspective now.

It's not really a typical city - but then nowhere is.

It has had international attention squared, for winning the Premier

League and for discovering and then burying Richard III.

Secunder Kermani has been finding out.

Leicester's rise to the top of the Premiership

last month captured the nation's hearts and covered the city in blue

Both sides of the referendum could claim their success

On the one hand, they are plucky underdogs who defeated the

On the other, they are now playing in Europe and got

We asked voters paying homage at the team mural.

Personally I think we've too many people in the country.

Some of those immigrants include Riyad

Exactly, exactly, yes, that's a very good

point, but it's just how I feel about it.

Going down and down in good lookingness.

Most of our supermarket food comes from the EU.

If we say we are going to be out, that's going to be

a lot more expensive to us, we are not going to have negotiable

prices, there are going to sell it to us

more expensive because we'll be a separate body now and we have to

One of Leicester's football team's big

successes has been to harness the support of the City's diverse

Here, white Britons are actually a minority and this street

was named as the most diverse in the whole country.

Whilst there is genuine pride in multiculturalism

here, opinions on the referendum are as divided as anywhere else.

NEWSREEL: Mr Panesar has come a long way from

Before 2004, one of the most significant waves of immigration to

Leicester came with Idi Amin exiled thousands of Indian-origin

One of the first to arrive on what is now

called the city's Golden Mile was this family of jewellers.

Did you ever think about commissioning

anything after Leicester won the football?

Yeah, we were thinking about making a fox or something.

To tell you the truth I'm an Arsenal supporter, so it's very hard for me

There should be a freedom for everyone to move around

but the problem I've got at the moment is a lot of these

immigrants that are coming into England to

work, they are not spending their money in this country.

All the money they are earning is going back to their country.

Isn't that what a lot of people used to say about British

Asians, before? No...

That they were sending money to build houses back home?

No, the British Asians, especially at our

time, when we came here in '72 from Kampala, we came with hardly

anybody - all the money we made here we invested

If you look at this small island of ours, it ruled the whole world.

It even ruled America, that's how powerful we were.

I'm sure now we can stand on our own feet and run

our country the way we want to run our country.

Leicester is a Labour city, with ethnic minorities here

providing much of their support, but neither of those facts are

necessarily translating into automatic support for remain.

necessarily translating into automatic support for Eemain.

necessarily translating into automatic support for Remain.

We've got Muslim players on the Leicester

team, we've got Kante, Inler, we've got Mahrez.

Watching the Euros is long-time Leicester fan Riaz Khan.

As his family sit down to break their fast for

Ramadan, they are weighing up which side to support.

We've just started to take the kids to European cities.

We were in Barcelona earlier this year.

And obviously that's so easy to just take your passport, jump on

Eurostar, catch a plane, and you don't have

to worry about visas and things like that.

Yeah, I think it would have an impact on us.

The NHS is at breaking point, schools are at

breaking point, there's waiting list for kids to go to school because,

When a migrant worker comes here, he brings his whole

Is the government's responsibility that there is a

school places shortage or if there are strains on the NHS, that's

something they should be dealing with and not blaming being part of

I mean, they are in Brussels telling us what to do here.

Which I think is a bit ridiculous, really.

We are British, we should be able to dictate our own laws.

But however, saying that, at the same time, on

the other hand, the EU got good human rights laws.

So I'm 50-50, I'm still on the fence here, I don't know what to do.

Leicester City managed to inspire support from a massive

cross-section of society, like this rap by local MCs The Squad.

campaign knows it needs to generate, especially amongst younger voters.

More likely to back them, but less likely to vote.

Some people I've spoken to, they are like, I don't

even care if I vote or not because it's not going to affect

them, their vote isn't going to make any difference.

Their view is that it's destined, whatever is going to

be, and they don't have no control in it.

The way a lot of people feel with politics, because a lot of the

time they feel that politicians are always saying one thing just

to get your vote and then they go against what they said.

I see those Question Time things and stuff and it looks

When you're watching it and they're all asking

I think to myself, let's just live in peace.

Some people are still stuck in that mindset where

they say that Britain is a world power.

Britain ain't no world power any more, know what I mean?

They used to be a colonial power, a world

Forget all of that, man. Times have changed.

To me, personally, I see us as global citizens.

I should be able to go anywhere I want to go without anyone

being able to restrict me, the same for people in other parts of

Are we going to stay, are we going to Brexit?

So if you can wrap about Leicester City, can you rap about

So the topic in question, the EU referendum

But to be honest, I don't trust Boris

Mantell is lying every other sentence

But if it's better for the youth, Brexit

Things get better before they get worse, but in

But some say stay in the EU, and some say stay

My decision made suede, don't know if I'm going to vote anyway

But at the end of the day, more education, more education for youse

To vote, especially for the young generation

I am joined by a panel of people from Leicester and neighbouring

towns and villages. Good evening to you and thanks for coming down here

to the cathedral tonight. Let's have a distinctively Leicester debate

about this, and let's start with immigration. How many of you think

immigration is an issue or problem? Both of you are Brexiteers. It is

not a problem for me, in the sense that I am not anti-immigrant, I am

not a little Englander. I think the problem with the immigration debate

is how it is framed. When my dad came over in 1969, he had a job

lined up, an employer had to send a piece of paper over to India for him

to come here. Because he would not getting, because most of the

immigration is taken up by EU citizens. So the debate in my view

is wrong. Do you think more non-EU immigration would be allowed if we

vote to come out? A lot of people are just saying, we are going to get

it... I think that is a very key point. The whole thing about EU is

not that you are anti-immigrant or you are racist. Watts of people I

know are not racist at all but they do not want to be in the EU. We keep

getting hit with that stick, that we are racist. With the immigration,

300,000, I do not want to go into figures... But like I said, there is

a whole world out there. At the moment people say, we want to build

a wall around Britain. We don't, we want to take the EU wall down so

that we can be trading with the rest of the world. So, community

relations here, comfortable or what? Coughed above. We have obviously

people that are badly behaved at times but most of the time people

are quite good. I was just thinking about what he just said about people

coming from outside Europe. I think if we were to come out of the EU, if

the Brexiteers got their case, which is based on xenophobia and sometimes

even racism, I think that actually, it would strengthen their argument

and we would actually have less people coming in from outside the EU

as well. I think it would unleash... You are a student here and a

Brexiteer. You are studying history at Leicester university. You were

shaking your head in the yes, a think it is very easy to label

someone who is... It is easy to label somebody as racist. But I do

not think anyone on this side of the date has ever said that immigration

is bad. In fact we think it is a very positive thing for the country.

And in fact we would welcome the chance to encourage more immigrants

from the rest of the world. How many immigrant families, second, third

generation, people from families who have arrived in the last 50 years,

how many of them are worried about immigration? I am undecided. I think

the immigration issue is a non-issue. I am a product of

immigration. We were very fortunate for our families to be allowed into

the country and in my opinion, we have made a success of it. I think

the interesting thing is that there is a lot of scaremongering which

goes on. We work in financial services so we do mortgages for the

Polish and all of the other immigrants. Actually they seem as

hard-working as everybody else that we have come across. I think it was

Neil Kinnock who said, always the last wave of immigrants are the ones

who say, we don't want... The ones before that, they are OK because

they have settled in. But we don't like the last lot, is that...? Yes,

I think so. As soon as you start picking on someone because of where

you are from, you cannot hide that, Being slightly basis. That is how

I see it. Why is it different for an EU immigrants to come here, but

nobody is slapping off the Brits that go to Germany, who made the

Spanish economy collapsed because they all left? Brits are straining

other countries just as much as... Not that immigrants are straining

our country. You hit the nail on the head. You say that it's go abroad.

Yes,, that's fine but the majority of people coming in at the moment

are from the EU. I am saying, why would don't we open it up to the

whole world? Britain was part of the Commonwealth. They would not want to

come, would they? I think that is a good point on which to end it. I

want to talk about some other things. You might have heard the

Steve Hilton interview, and this framing of the debate as one between

an establishment and the public. You are a businessman, you are a

Bremainer... Nobody has got the answers, there is so much

uncertainty. Nobody has the numbers. We don't know who to believe. For me

as a businessman, it is all about risk and risk appetite. I don't have

the appetite for risk, because on the 24th of June, I don't know what

is going happen. The only thing I know is that the colour of my

passport may change if we vote out, and a number of styles on it may

change. In terms of what is going happen, we don't know. Do you buy

the argument that there is such a thing as the establishment, and it

is like the French Revolution, we have insurrection in the air? I

would argue that it is establishment versus the people. I think the

establishment has lost a lot of its credibility. When Cameron said we're

going to get this great renegotiation and came back with

nothing, and instead wraps it up as this brilliant steel for Britain, he

loses credibility. Jeremy Corbyn the same, has been and to Europe for

many years, and suddenly is pro-Europe. Don't you think, because

Jeremy Corbyn has the potential to be Prime Minister when we are going

to be either in or out, that's why he has changed his mind? He has no

principles, either. Just because you change your opinion, does not mean

you don't have any principles. You are a Labour councillor... The point

of having a debate is for people to change their mind, that is the whole

point of politics. It does not show that Jeremy Corbyn is a lack of

principle. He has always said that he has problems with some things

about the EU. We going to have to argue in our own time because we are

out of time. Thank you all of you very much indeed for coming in. I am

going to continue asking questions of Steve Hilton now. But not my

questions, your questions. We are going to go on Facebook. You can

find it on the Newsnight Facebook H. And you can fire questions in. Join

us for that. Back to you in London. I will be on the truck tomorrow

night in Chipping Norton, David Cameron's constituency.

is one of the most famous lines in film.

Well, the billionaire businessman Sir Phillip Green seemed to be

channelling Robert de Niro at the Business and Pensions

Committee when he aggressively took on one MP.

But his pugnacity was matched by an apology to all the BHS staff

caught up in the collapse, and a promise to try to secure

A surprise, given that some MPs thought he wouldn't even show up.

It was billed as the ultimate showdown.

Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all the time?

Put your glasses back on, you look better with your glasses on.

Up until now we have doing pretty good.

I think that is an unnecessary statement, I think you should

withdraw it and I think it is very rude.

I don't like the way you're asking me that question.

On what possible basis would I want to stop somebody buying

Theatrics aside, Sir Philip Green clearly had a few key points

He said he just made a bad call in selling to Dominic Chappell.

He said he regretted and apologised for what had happened.

And he said that even now he is working to try and find

a solution to protect the pension benefits of BHS's workforce.

But he seemed less keen to be drawn on some details in what had become

an intricate web of he said, she said claims and counterclaims.

One key issue, the pensions of 20,000 BHS staff.

We will sort it, we will find a solution.

I want to give an assurance to the 20,000 pensioners,

But there was little further detail on offer.

And the pensions regulator today said it had not received

Back when the pension fund was sliding into deficit,

Sir Philip's grip on the problem seemed more limited.

So there is no question that you can answer about any

aspect of the pension fund between 2000 and 2012?

I would say, virtually no, is the answer.

One thing did pique Sir Philip's interest.

That was when the Pensions Protection Fund told BHS

There was a lot of things going on in pensions at the time,

but it was a massively deteriorating situation over a prolonged period.

That seemed to receive less attention than the very small amount

of money that the PPF levy was going to cost the business.

So on some areas there was a lot of detail.

In other, bigger picture areas which were certainly more important,

Sir Philip may have a keen eye for detail on the shop floor,

but today he stressed that in some areas he left the nitty-gritty

vetting former bankrupt Dominic Chappell's suitability as a buyer.

Sir Philip also said he took comfort in the advisers Mr Chappell had

What I am saying to you is, rightly or wrongly, I took

comfort from those two firms representing him,

their respective firms being present, doing the sort

of work they were doing, gave us some comfort.

The fact that people have hired hands alongside them does not

mean that it necessarily improves their credibility

It may mean they may have people doing due diligence,

people very good at signing, preparing legal documentation.

You have still got to look at the individual.

And Sir Philip is an experienced businessman who I am sure knows

an experienced businessman when he sees one.

Ultimately, Sir Philip Green found himself under the microscope.

You seem extraordinarily thin-skinned to quite

courteous questions, as if you do not want to be

challenged in any way, shape or form.

In terms of that wider corporate governance point,

did anybody, particularly a non-exec director say,

"I am not entirely certain, can we challenge you?"

That does not seem to be the culture of the organisation?

As things stand, it will soon disappear from our high streets.

Its former owner seems a contradiction.

Here is a fiery entrepreneur with strong opinions and a stronger

Yet in terms of the detail of what went wrong, others

Terrorism, Muslims, gun control, attitudes to LGBT people -

Donald Trump has managed to take the appalling Orlando

massacre and imbue it with his own brand of politics.

Today, the Republican nominee said he would talk to the NRA about not

allowing people on the terrorism watch list to buy guns,

but he also repeated his call to ban Muslims from entering the US,

even though the killer Omar Mateen was an American citizen.

So, what will be the long term impact of the Orlando killings

The small town of Fort Pierce where Mateen lived may

It is also in the swing state of Florida.

It was the railroad that first brought

people to Fort Pierce - an

unremarkable stop now along the Florida east coast main line.

It's a town of fishing boats and seaside

cafes, of churches and of small businesses, some thriving, some

It is in many ways a typical Florida seaside town.

But Fort Pierce was also home to Omar Mateen -

the Orlando shooter prayed at this mosque.

Everybody got in shock right now, you know?

I see him, a lot of time he just come for pray.

We had a little boy with him also sometimes, and

This is a community under pressure, as America debates

whether the problem is gun control or Islamic immigration.

How do you feel as a Muslim in America?

So, you know - this country been very nice to us,

my kids also grown up in this country.

So, if anything happens to actually this country, we

The thing is that Omar Mateen is not the only person

to have worshipped at this mosque who has been connected to Islamic

In 2014, Munir Mohammad Abu Salha became the first known

American suicide bomber to blow himself up in Syria.

Back then it was the same story - the mosque said

that he hadn't been radicalised here, that

they've got no connections to extremism.

Whatever the truth, it has put this little town right at

Orlando was the deadliest shooting in this country's history.

But there has been a mass shooting in America almost every day this

month - and this is a pretty normal month.

For some, the solution is simple - restrict the sale of guns.

I ain't never touch a gun in my life.

Never, these hands have never touch a gun.

Weapon like that, no local person should have weapon like that.

But others are just as convinced that the answer is more,

It's a debate that rouses strong passions and fuels divisions

He was an American but he was raised with...

radical terrorist, you know, thinking.

There's nobody else that's going to do it for us.

I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.

Has what happened in Orlando changed the way you think

Oh, no, I have always been going for Trump.

We've got to get rid of the politicians.

Even if it's only for four years, let's get some things

Maybe politicians will then learn, hey, we are put in here by

the people, we are supposed to be working FOR the people, not working

The partisan paralysis of the Obama years has left many in America

disillusioned with the whole political class.

Donald Trump is capitalising on that.

In the aftermath of Orlando, he repeated

his call for a halt to Muslim immigration.

For many, such suggestion goes against the very

But the mayor of Fort Pierce says that some people are

People right now are saying, maybe we need to pay attention

to what the Muslims are doing in our country.

Americans don't want to hate - they do not want to do that.

Fort Pierce has the same social and economic

On one side of the tracks, the affluence of a town attracting

On the other, the poverty of a country

still suffering the after-effects of economic crisis.

Florida is a swing state - it voted Bush in

2000 - just - remember the "hanging chads".

And then it voted Obama in both 2008 and

2012, again by a really tight margin.

And so events like the shooting in Florida really have the

capacity to change, to determine the outcome of elections.

They store the orange juice in here, and then on

the other side of the wall is where they actually bottle it.

Natalie's Orchid Island juice company produces

3000 litres of Florida orange juice a week.

It is a typical small, family-owned business.

The eponymous Natalie says the tragedy in Orlando

People do come together, people do mourn and they do

and they do want to see our country as a whole succeed.

But I think we are at the brink of change, with an

And so I think each person stands on a certain side

of the political spectrum, and I think it is only pushing them

Investigators are still trying to figure out what exactly

turned a man from Fort Pierce into a mass murderer.

November's election is still some way off, but already

the tragedy in Orlando has made its imprint on the campaign.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget to join us in Chipping Norton

tomorrow, the Prime Minister's backyard, as the referendum campaign

ticks on. Until then, have a good night.

The weather this week has been stuck in repeat