15/06/2016 Newsnight


15/06/2016

The programme looks at the Brexit debate in Leicester. Plus a report from the home town of the Orlando nightclub shooter Omar Mateen. With Evan Davis and Kirsty Wark.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 15/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

We're in Leicester tonight - a city united in pride

:00:00.:00:07.

at its winning football team, but as divided as the rest

:00:08.:00:10.

of the country as to who should win the referendum.

:00:11.:00:17.

# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?

:00:18.:00:21.

# Are we gonna stay, are we gonna Brexit?

:00:22.:00:25.

The city loves its sport, but the referendum is

:00:26.:00:29.

A warning this evening, that Britain may get a red card.

:00:30.:00:35.

From the moment that Parliament had passed the legislation

:00:36.:00:39.

and enacted it into law, I think they would have

:00:40.:00:42.

been entitled to say, you've chosen to go, just like that.

:00:43.:00:44.

And we can no longer have a relationship

:00:45.:00:47.

And however we vote, politics may never be the same.

:00:48.:00:53.

The Prime Minister's former confidant Steve Hilton is with us

:00:54.:01:01.

to tell us why he's on the opposite side to his old chum, David Cameron.

:01:02.:01:05.

Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all of the time?

:01:06.:01:09.

And we've been to the Orlando killer's home town in Florida.

:01:10.:01:16.

I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.

:01:17.:01:24.

We've brought our roadshow right here, in the shadow

:01:25.:01:42.

of the cathedral, which is famously now home to the remains

:01:43.:01:45.

Back in his day, the great power struggle was between

:01:46.:01:50.

It ran for decades, and led to political

:01:51.:01:53.

And today, in a less violent way, we find politics in turmoil again.

:01:54.:02:00.

The great schism now is partly between Remain and Leave -

:02:01.:02:05.

but increasingly it also seems to be defined by broader philosophies that

:02:06.:02:07.

Are you for radical change or the status quo?

:02:08.:02:11.

For the European model of society, or for something different?

:02:12.:02:17.

We're exploring these divisions around the country this week.

:02:18.:02:27.

The Newsnight truck had to pack up and say farewell to a damp

:02:28.:02:30.

Middlesbrough this morning for the next leg of its

:02:31.:02:32.

It's stopping in a variety of contrasting locations this week.

:02:33.:02:39.

It started in Glasgow on Monday, journeyed through the English North

:02:40.:02:42.

and Midlands, and it's heading to the market town

:02:43.:02:44.

of Chipping Norton tomorrow and finally

:02:45.:02:47.

But it's arrived in Leicester today.

:02:48.:02:52.

A Midlands city that's been on something of a winning streak.

:02:53.:02:57.

A location with a great sense of history, going back to Roman

:02:58.:03:02.

times, with the most famous nondescript car park in the world,

:03:03.:03:05.

But Leicester has also successfully tied itself to the future,

:03:06.:03:15.

a big higher education sector, two successful universities,

:03:16.:03:17.

a specialism in space science and home to the National Space Centre.

:03:18.:03:21.

It is one of the most diverse cities in the country, it has attracted

:03:22.:03:27.

immigrants for many decades, after many of the Ugandan Asians

:03:28.:03:30.

settled here when kicked out of their country in the '70s.

:03:31.:03:33.

Fewer than half of the city population is white British.

:03:34.:03:35.

Leicester is firmly on its way into Europe in one respect.

:03:36.:03:39.

It will be playing in the Champions League next season.

:03:40.:03:43.

The local team's success has invigorated the city's

:03:44.:03:46.

sense of identity, but what does that mean?

:03:47.:03:50.

Is that the plucky spirit that says we can survive alone and should

:03:51.:03:54.

leave the EU or do winners feel that the future lies in Europe?

:03:55.:03:58.

Labour council, Labour mayor, two Labour MPs.

:03:59.:04:02.

Labour is a broad coalition, as is the Conservative Party,

:04:03.:04:07.

and potentially the EU threatens to upset those coalitions.

:04:08.:04:10.

Before we look at some of that, let's talk to our political editor

:04:11.:04:13.

And Nick, we hear tonight there is a stark warning about how

:04:14.:04:21.

Vote Leave's blueprint for leaving the EU could actually lead to us

:04:22.:04:24.

Yes, I've been talking to the former Attorney General, Dominic Grieve,

:04:25.:04:35.

who has been telling me that the Vote Leave road map for taking

:04:36.:04:40.

Britain out of the EU could lead to what is describing as a chaotic

:04:41.:04:44.

dejection. We've seen some serious blue on blue shelling in the

:04:45.:04:48.

referendum campaign but here we have a former Tory Attorney General

:04:49.:04:52.

saying that the current Tory Lord Chancellor is laying out a plan that

:04:53.:04:56.

would place Britain in breach of its EU treaty obligations and would

:04:57.:05:01.

raise questions about Britain's international reputation for

:05:02.:05:07.

upholding the rule of law. They intend, even before we have left, to

:05:08.:05:11.

remove the authority of the European Court of Justice, and to carry out a

:05:12.:05:16.

number of other steps which would be in breach of our EU treaty

:05:17.:05:20.

regulations. It would be possible for our partners to turn around and

:05:21.:05:24.

say that we have effectively left the European Union and in those

:05:25.:05:28.

circumstances the advantages of membership, including for example

:05:29.:05:31.

access to the single market, have gone. At that point we would be

:05:32.:05:40.

rejected? Effectively rejected. An interesting intervention by Dominic

:05:41.:05:46.

Grieve. Just how bad do you think these Tory divisions are? The

:05:47.:05:49.

atmosphere is pretty sour at the moment. This evening we had Michael

:05:50.:05:54.

Gove suggesting he might resign from the Cabinet if George Osborne goes

:05:55.:05:58.

ahead with his plan for a Brexit budget. Michael Gove and the Vote

:05:59.:06:01.

Leave campaign say that the budget is scaremongering and is a panic

:06:02.:06:06.

move and there would be no need for it. Now, George Osborne says that

:06:07.:06:11.

Michael Gove and around 70 Conservative MPs who are making

:06:12.:06:18.

those points are predictable and this is the usual campaign

:06:19.:06:20.

skirmishes you would expect at this stage. George Osborne is saying

:06:21.:06:24.

really that he wants to focus the campaign on the economy and there

:06:25.:06:28.

will be some pretty significant events over the next 48-hour is.

:06:29.:06:32.

Tomorrow night he delivers his annual speech at the Mansion house

:06:33.:06:36.

in the presence of the governor of the Bank of England, Mark Carney.

:06:37.:06:40.

George Osborne is having to write a speech on his own with a view

:06:41.:06:42.

political advisers because the Treasury civil servants are not

:06:43.:06:48.

allowed to help him at this stage -- with a few advisers. There is a

:06:49.:06:53.

feeling in the Treasury that this is a crucial period because of Friday

:06:54.:06:56.

we have the IMF delivering its annual report on the state of the UK

:06:57.:07:00.

economy and guess what it's going to say? If you leave the EU there will

:07:01.:07:05.

be a danger to the UK economy. Not all plain sailing for the

:07:06.:07:08.

Chancellor, I've spoken to a former cabinet minister who knows the

:07:09.:07:12.

chance well and he said of the Brexit budget, George is a gambler,

:07:13.:07:17.

he has done a last throw of the dice to frighten people into staying in

:07:18.:07:20.

the European Union and this cabinet minister fears it isn't working and

:07:21.:07:25.

as things stand at the moment, he thinks that Britain is on the verge

:07:26.:07:29.

of voting to leave and he is a Remain supporter. Thank you for

:07:30.:07:31.

joining us. I'm joined here now,

:07:32.:07:33.

by a prominent Brexit supporter, Once a close and senior

:07:34.:07:35.

advisor to David Cameron, a friend too, he has always been

:07:36.:07:43.

seen as more radical, Talking about the Brexit budget of

:07:44.:07:58.

George Osborne, wondering what you thought of that, is that a

:07:59.:08:02.

reasonable campaign technique? I saw it this morning and my heart sank,

:08:03.:08:08.

to be honest. I think be the best response to it is what the Prime

:08:09.:08:12.

Minister said, not that long ago, a few weeks ago when he said that

:08:13.:08:16.

actually Britain would do perfectly fine outside the EU. We are Great

:08:17.:08:22.

Britain and we can do great. He things that on balance we are better

:08:23.:08:26.

off in, other people might have a different opinion. That's a

:08:27.:08:29.

reasonable way of putting it but since he said that at the start of

:08:30.:08:32.

the campaign, what's happened is that it's got less and less

:08:33.:08:37.

reasonable and more hysterical. Today was the worst example of that.

:08:38.:08:42.

Do you think the Chancellor has lost so much credibility as a result of

:08:43.:08:45.

this that it's difficult to imagine him delivering a real budget now?

:08:46.:08:50.

Can you trust him now? I wouldn't go as far as that, I would just say...

:08:51.:08:56.

They keep telling us that it is a serious long-term decision, more

:08:57.:09:00.

important than any general election, something that will affect us for 40

:09:01.:09:04.

years. Please can we take it seriously? Are you satisfied with

:09:05.:09:11.

the honesty of the Leave campaign? There is the 350 million a week, for

:09:12.:09:18.

example. Are you happy with that? It isn't just about honesty. It is

:09:19.:09:23.

putting forward an argument and actually explaining why people

:09:24.:09:26.

should vote one way or the other. What you saw from the Leave campaign

:09:27.:09:31.

today is serious positive proposals about what they would do in the

:09:32.:09:36.

event of the vote going their way. That's a big contrast with the

:09:37.:09:38.

entirely negative stuff we're hearing the other side. I'm

:09:39.:09:43.

interested in the argument you've given for us leaving. You've framed

:09:44.:09:49.

it as a battle between the people and the establishment. Yes. Explain

:09:50.:09:55.

your argument because you've also used it to explain the popularity of

:09:56.:10:00.

Donald Trump. There's something underlying the anger and frustration

:10:01.:10:04.

that you are seeing, not just here, across Europe, but also in America,

:10:05.:10:09.

the sense that for many years now, probably decades, the world has been

:10:10.:10:13.

run according to a technocratic agenda that doesn't really change,

:10:14.:10:18.

whoever is in power, an agenda that is uncritical of globalisation and

:10:19.:10:22.

technological change, that prioritises efficiency above all

:10:23.:10:27.

else and that is callous about the impact on real people and their

:10:28.:10:32.

lives, and it do mine is -- it dehumanises them. People feel that

:10:33.:10:37.

they can't control the things that matter to them. People who think

:10:38.:10:42.

that Donald Trump is a disaster for the United States, should they also

:10:43.:10:48.

assume that we are not on Steve Hilton's side in the argument?

:10:49.:10:51.

Basically we don't want populist politics, therefore we should vote

:10:52.:11:00.

to remain? I'm wondering if that... I would bring in Bernie Sanders on

:11:01.:11:04.

the left. I don't think it is limited to one side. The real

:11:05.:11:09.

argument isn't about populism, it's actually about democracy in the true

:11:10.:11:14.

meaning of the word. In other words, people having a say and control over

:11:15.:11:17.

the things that matter to them. Michael Gove said, I think I'm

:11:18.:11:22.

quoting him correctly, people in this country have had enough of

:11:23.:11:29.

experts. Do you agree? Is that an official doctrine of those who want

:11:30.:11:34.

to leave? I think it's striking that when those who want us to stay in

:11:35.:11:42.

the EU wheel out the technocratic elite who have this very common

:11:43.:11:45.

view, this kind of group think about how things should be organised, they

:11:46.:11:50.

have an interest in perpetuating the world they are in. I don't think

:11:51.:11:56.

it's necessarily about experts. Doctors think that antibiotics help

:11:57.:12:00.

you with bacteria, do you reject that advice? You would like an

:12:01.:12:09.

expert trained and accredited mechanic? It isn't necessarily about

:12:10.:12:14.

experts, it's about the opinion of a certain group of people who have

:12:15.:12:19.

been in power and control, not just government but business and the

:12:20.:12:22.

bureaucracy and is exemplified by what happens in Brussels. Is it one

:12:23.:12:29.

group who encompasses Jeremy Corbyn and Caroline Lucas of the Greens and

:12:30.:12:33.

encompasses David Cameron and George Osborne, the IMF? This isn't one big

:12:34.:12:41.

cabal of people, it is quite a varied bunch. It is, but that

:12:42.:12:45.

doesn't mean they are right. The real argument here is about how we

:12:46.:12:49.

organise and govern ourselves in the face of what is a very rapidly

:12:50.:12:54.

changing world, we can't predict what's going to happen in the

:12:55.:12:58.

future. I think it comes down to the ability of us to control the things

:12:59.:13:02.

that will enable us to boost our economy, create jobs. Why should the

:13:03.:13:11.

public trust you, fairly established, married to a PR person,

:13:12.:13:15.

you live in California, you are wealthy? Why should they trust you,

:13:16.:13:23.

the company you are keeping in the argument, George Galloway, Nigel

:13:24.:13:27.

Farage? A great question, it isn't about trusting me, it is about

:13:28.:13:30.

trusting themselves, putting power in people's hands, that is what this

:13:31.:13:35.

is about and that is what I have argued for in politics, not just in

:13:36.:13:39.

relation to the EU, but the reforms we worked on in government, it is

:13:40.:13:43.

about decentralising power, giving people control over the things that

:13:44.:13:48.

matter to them. That is the way that the world is going. I see this

:13:49.:13:51.

clearly where I run a business in Silicon Valley, a lot of it is

:13:52.:13:56.

powered by technology and it is about a centralising power and

:13:57.:14:00.

giving people control. That is happening everywhere apart from

:14:01.:14:03.

government and the EU is the worst example of that. You worked for

:14:04.:14:09.

David Cameron, a project to detoxify the Conservative Party, people you

:14:10.:14:16.

are sitting on the opposite side of the debate, to change the party. You

:14:17.:14:20.

know that if we vote the way that you would like us to vote, the

:14:21.:14:25.

project is finished, isn't it? David Cameron is finished, the Tory party

:14:26.:14:28.

will have changed and it's over. But the real project was not to

:14:29.:14:33.

transform the Tory party but the country, to implement reforms to

:14:34.:14:38.

public services, schools, welfare, to help people improve living

:14:39.:14:41.

standards. That work will go on and I think that the best way of

:14:42.:14:46.

continuing that and getting the kind of decentralisation of power that I

:14:47.:14:51.

want to see at all levels is to vote lead and then for David Cameron to

:14:52.:14:54.

stay on as Prime Minister because I can't think of anyone better to lead

:14:55.:14:57.

the process of taking us out of the EU.

:14:58.:15:10.

Do you think David Cameron will be Prime Minister in 18 months' time?

:15:11.:15:16.

Yes. The idea that he should be deposed because of a referendum is

:15:17.:15:21.

as anti-enigmatic as the EU itself. He was elected by the British people

:15:22.:15:25.

last year for a full term, knowing that he was going to have a

:15:26.:15:28.

referendum. There was no condition attached to that. He was elected by

:15:29.:15:32.

the people of this country to serve as Prime Minister, and that is what

:15:33.:15:35.

he should do. Thank you very much indeed.

:15:36.:15:50.

Let's get more of the Leicester perspective now.

:15:51.:15:52.

It's not really a typical city - but then nowhere is.

:15:53.:15:55.

It has had international attention squared, for winning the Premier

:15:56.:15:57.

League and for discovering and then burying Richard III.

:15:58.:15:59.

Secunder Kermani has been finding out.

:16:00.:16:04.

Leicester's rise to the top of the Premiership

:16:05.:16:09.

last month captured the nation's hearts and covered the city in blue

:16:10.:16:12.

Both sides of the referendum could claim their success

:16:13.:16:15.

On the one hand, they are plucky underdogs who defeated the

:16:16.:16:19.

On the other, they are now playing in Europe and got

:16:20.:16:27.

We asked voters paying homage at the team mural.

:16:28.:16:35.

Personally I think we've too many people in the country.

:16:36.:16:39.

Some of those immigrants include Riyad

:16:40.:16:41.

Exactly, exactly, yes, that's a very good

:16:42.:16:46.

point, but it's just how I feel about it.

:16:47.:16:49.

Going down and down in good lookingness.

:16:50.:16:56.

Most of our supermarket food comes from the EU.

:16:57.:16:59.

If we say we are going to be out, that's going to be

:17:00.:17:02.

a lot more expensive to us, we are not going to have negotiable

:17:03.:17:05.

prices, there are going to sell it to us

:17:06.:17:07.

more expensive because we'll be a separate body now and we have to

:17:08.:17:11.

One of Leicester's football team's big

:17:12.:17:16.

successes has been to harness the support of the City's diverse

:17:17.:17:20.

Here, white Britons are actually a minority and this street

:17:21.:17:29.

was named as the most diverse in the whole country.

:17:30.:17:32.

Whilst there is genuine pride in multiculturalism

:17:33.:17:33.

here, opinions on the referendum are as divided as anywhere else.

:17:34.:17:36.

NEWSREEL: Mr Panesar has come a long way from

:17:37.:17:39.

Before 2004, one of the most significant waves of immigration to

:17:40.:17:45.

Leicester came with Idi Amin exiled thousands of Indian-origin

:17:46.:17:47.

One of the first to arrive on what is now

:17:48.:17:55.

called the city's Golden Mile was this family of jewellers.

:17:56.:17:57.

Did you ever think about commissioning

:17:58.:17:58.

anything after Leicester won the football?

:17:59.:18:01.

Yeah, we were thinking about making a fox or something.

:18:02.:18:04.

To tell you the truth I'm an Arsenal supporter, so it's very hard for me

:18:05.:18:09.

There should be a freedom for everyone to move around

:18:10.:18:15.

but the problem I've got at the moment is a lot of these

:18:16.:18:19.

immigrants that are coming into England to

:18:20.:18:24.

work, they are not spending their money in this country.

:18:25.:18:27.

All the money they are earning is going back to their country.

:18:28.:18:30.

Isn't that what a lot of people used to say about British

:18:31.:18:33.

Asians, before? No...

:18:34.:18:37.

That they were sending money to build houses back home?

:18:38.:18:40.

No, the British Asians, especially at our

:18:41.:18:41.

time, when we came here in '72 from Kampala, we came with hardly

:18:42.:18:44.

anybody - all the money we made here we invested

:18:45.:18:47.

If you look at this small island of ours, it ruled the whole world.

:18:48.:18:51.

It even ruled America, that's how powerful we were.

:18:52.:18:54.

I'm sure now we can stand on our own feet and run

:18:55.:18:58.

our country the way we want to run our country.

:18:59.:19:02.

Leicester is a Labour city, with ethnic minorities here

:19:03.:19:05.

providing much of their support, but neither of those facts are

:19:06.:19:08.

necessarily translating into automatic support for remain.

:19:09.:19:11.

necessarily translating into automatic support for Eemain.

:19:12.:19:14.

necessarily translating into automatic support for Remain.

:19:15.:19:16.

We've got Muslim players on the Leicester

:19:17.:19:19.

team, we've got Kante, Inler, we've got Mahrez.

:19:20.:19:25.

Watching the Euros is long-time Leicester fan Riaz Khan.

:19:26.:19:27.

As his family sit down to break their fast for

:19:28.:19:31.

Ramadan, they are weighing up which side to support.

:19:32.:19:33.

We've just started to take the kids to European cities.

:19:34.:19:35.

We were in Barcelona earlier this year.

:19:36.:19:38.

And obviously that's so easy to just take your passport, jump on

:19:39.:19:41.

Eurostar, catch a plane, and you don't have

:19:42.:19:44.

to worry about visas and things like that.

:19:45.:19:47.

Yeah, I think it would have an impact on us.

:19:48.:19:52.

The NHS is at breaking point, schools are at

:19:53.:19:55.

breaking point, there's waiting list for kids to go to school because,

:19:56.:19:58.

When a migrant worker comes here, he brings his whole

:19:59.:20:01.

Is the government's responsibility that there is a

:20:02.:20:06.

school places shortage or if there are strains on the NHS, that's

:20:07.:20:08.

something they should be dealing with and not blaming being part of

:20:09.:20:11.

I mean, they are in Brussels telling us what to do here.

:20:12.:20:16.

Which I think is a bit ridiculous, really.

:20:17.:20:19.

We are British, we should be able to dictate our own laws.

:20:20.:20:22.

But however, saying that, at the same time, on

:20:23.:20:24.

the other hand, the EU got good human rights laws.

:20:25.:20:28.

So I'm 50-50, I'm still on the fence here, I don't know what to do.

:20:29.:20:32.

Leicester City managed to inspire support from a massive

:20:33.:20:44.

cross-section of society, like this rap by local MCs The Squad.

:20:45.:20:48.

campaign knows it needs to generate, especially amongst younger voters.

:20:49.:20:56.

More likely to back them, but less likely to vote.

:20:57.:21:02.

Some people I've spoken to, they are like, I don't

:21:03.:21:10.

even care if I vote or not because it's not going to affect

:21:11.:21:13.

them, their vote isn't going to make any difference.

:21:14.:21:15.

Their view is that it's destined, whatever is going to

:21:16.:21:17.

be, and they don't have no control in it.

:21:18.:21:20.

The way a lot of people feel with politics, because a lot of the

:21:21.:21:23.

time they feel that politicians are always saying one thing just

:21:24.:21:26.

to get your vote and then they go against what they said.

:21:27.:21:28.

I see those Question Time things and stuff and it looks

:21:29.:21:31.

When you're watching it and they're all asking

:21:32.:21:34.

I think to myself, let's just live in peace.

:21:35.:21:39.

Some people are still stuck in that mindset where

:21:40.:21:44.

they say that Britain is a world power.

:21:45.:21:45.

Britain ain't no world power any more, know what I mean?

:21:46.:21:48.

They used to be a colonial power, a world

:21:49.:21:50.

Forget all of that, man. Times have changed.

:21:51.:21:55.

To me, personally, I see us as global citizens.

:21:56.:21:57.

I should be able to go anywhere I want to go without anyone

:21:58.:22:00.

being able to restrict me, the same for people in other parts of

:22:01.:22:03.

Are we going to stay, are we going to Brexit?

:22:04.:22:08.

So if you can wrap about Leicester City, can you rap about

:22:09.:22:11.

So the topic in question, the EU referendum

:22:12.:22:14.

But to be honest, I don't trust Boris

:22:15.:22:16.

Mantell is lying every other sentence

:22:17.:22:17.

But if it's better for the youth, Brexit

:22:18.:22:20.

Things get better before they get worse, but in

:22:21.:22:24.

But some say stay in the EU, and some say stay

:22:25.:22:29.

My decision made suede, don't know if I'm going to vote anyway

:22:30.:22:32.

But at the end of the day, more education, more education for youse

:22:33.:22:35.

To vote, especially for the young generation

:22:36.:22:49.

I am joined by a panel of people from Leicester and neighbouring

:22:50.:22:55.

towns and villages. Good evening to you and thanks for coming down here

:22:56.:22:59.

to the cathedral tonight. Let's have a distinctively Leicester debate

:23:00.:23:02.

about this, and let's start with immigration. How many of you think

:23:03.:23:10.

immigration is an issue or problem? Both of you are Brexiteers. It is

:23:11.:23:18.

not a problem for me, in the sense that I am not anti-immigrant, I am

:23:19.:23:23.

not a little Englander. I think the problem with the immigration debate

:23:24.:23:27.

is how it is framed. When my dad came over in 1969, he had a job

:23:28.:23:31.

lined up, an employer had to send a piece of paper over to India for him

:23:32.:23:35.

to come here. Because he would not getting, because most of the

:23:36.:23:39.

immigration is taken up by EU citizens. So the debate in my view

:23:40.:23:45.

is wrong. Do you think more non-EU immigration would be allowed if we

:23:46.:23:48.

vote to come out? A lot of people are just saying, we are going to get

:23:49.:23:53.

it... I think that is a very key point. The whole thing about EU is

:23:54.:23:56.

not that you are anti-immigrant or you are racist. Watts of people I

:23:57.:24:01.

know are not racist at all but they do not want to be in the EU. We keep

:24:02.:24:06.

getting hit with that stick, that we are racist. With the immigration,

:24:07.:24:11.

300,000, I do not want to go into figures... But like I said, there is

:24:12.:24:17.

a whole world out there. At the moment people say, we want to build

:24:18.:24:21.

a wall around Britain. We don't, we want to take the EU wall down so

:24:22.:24:25.

that we can be trading with the rest of the world. So, community

:24:26.:24:31.

relations here, comfortable or what? Coughed above. We have obviously

:24:32.:24:36.

people that are badly behaved at times but most of the time people

:24:37.:24:39.

are quite good. I was just thinking about what he just said about people

:24:40.:24:47.

coming from outside Europe. I think if we were to come out of the EU, if

:24:48.:24:53.

the Brexiteers got their case, which is based on xenophobia and sometimes

:24:54.:24:59.

even racism, I think that actually, it would strengthen their argument

:25:00.:25:02.

and we would actually have less people coming in from outside the EU

:25:03.:25:07.

as well. I think it would unleash... You are a student here and a

:25:08.:25:13.

Brexiteer. You are studying history at Leicester university. You were

:25:14.:25:17.

shaking your head in the yes, a think it is very easy to label

:25:18.:25:25.

someone who is... It is easy to label somebody as racist. But I do

:25:26.:25:29.

not think anyone on this side of the date has ever said that immigration

:25:30.:25:33.

is bad. In fact we think it is a very positive thing for the country.

:25:34.:25:37.

And in fact we would welcome the chance to encourage more immigrants

:25:38.:25:43.

from the rest of the world. How many immigrant families, second, third

:25:44.:25:50.

generation, people from families who have arrived in the last 50 years,

:25:51.:25:53.

how many of them are worried about immigration? I am undecided. I think

:25:54.:25:59.

the immigration issue is a non-issue. I am a product of

:26:00.:26:04.

immigration. We were very fortunate for our families to be allowed into

:26:05.:26:08.

the country and in my opinion, we have made a success of it. I think

:26:09.:26:12.

the interesting thing is that there is a lot of scaremongering which

:26:13.:26:16.

goes on. We work in financial services so we do mortgages for the

:26:17.:26:19.

Polish and all of the other immigrants. Actually they seem as

:26:20.:26:22.

hard-working as everybody else that we have come across. I think it was

:26:23.:26:28.

Neil Kinnock who said, always the last wave of immigrants are the ones

:26:29.:26:32.

who say, we don't want... The ones before that, they are OK because

:26:33.:26:36.

they have settled in. But we don't like the last lot, is that...? Yes,

:26:37.:26:42.

I think so. As soon as you start picking on someone because of where

:26:43.:26:47.

you are from, you cannot hide that, Being slightly basis. That is how

:26:48.:26:54.

I see it. Why is it different for an EU immigrants to come here, but

:26:55.:26:58.

nobody is slapping off the Brits that go to Germany, who made the

:26:59.:27:01.

Spanish economy collapsed because they all left? Brits are straining

:27:02.:27:07.

other countries just as much as... Not that immigrants are straining

:27:08.:27:10.

our country. You hit the nail on the head. You say that it's go abroad.

:27:11.:27:17.

Yes,, that's fine but the majority of people coming in at the moment

:27:18.:27:22.

are from the EU. I am saying, why would don't we open it up to the

:27:23.:27:25.

whole world? Britain was part of the Commonwealth. They would not want to

:27:26.:27:32.

come, would they? I think that is a good point on which to end it. I

:27:33.:27:35.

want to talk about some other things. You might have heard the

:27:36.:27:38.

Steve Hilton interview, and this framing of the debate as one between

:27:39.:27:45.

an establishment and the public. You are a businessman, you are a

:27:46.:27:55.

Bremainer... Nobody has got the answers, there is so much

:27:56.:27:59.

uncertainty. Nobody has the numbers. We don't know who to believe. For me

:28:00.:28:04.

as a businessman, it is all about risk and risk appetite. I don't have

:28:05.:28:09.

the appetite for risk, because on the 24th of June, I don't know what

:28:10.:28:12.

is going happen. The only thing I know is that the colour of my

:28:13.:28:17.

passport may change if we vote out, and a number of styles on it may

:28:18.:28:21.

change. In terms of what is going happen, we don't know. Do you buy

:28:22.:28:25.

the argument that there is such a thing as the establishment, and it

:28:26.:28:29.

is like the French Revolution, we have insurrection in the air? I

:28:30.:28:35.

would argue that it is establishment versus the people. I think the

:28:36.:28:39.

establishment has lost a lot of its credibility. When Cameron said we're

:28:40.:28:42.

going to get this great renegotiation and came back with

:28:43.:28:47.

nothing, and instead wraps it up as this brilliant steel for Britain, he

:28:48.:28:51.

loses credibility. Jeremy Corbyn the same, has been and to Europe for

:28:52.:28:54.

many years, and suddenly is pro-Europe. Don't you think, because

:28:55.:29:00.

Jeremy Corbyn has the potential to be Prime Minister when we are going

:29:01.:29:03.

to be either in or out, that's why he has changed his mind? He has no

:29:04.:29:10.

principles, either. Just because you change your opinion, does not mean

:29:11.:29:13.

you don't have any principles. You are a Labour councillor... The point

:29:14.:29:19.

of having a debate is for people to change their mind, that is the whole

:29:20.:29:22.

point of politics. It does not show that Jeremy Corbyn is a lack of

:29:23.:29:27.

principle. He has always said that he has problems with some things

:29:28.:29:32.

about the EU. We going to have to argue in our own time because we are

:29:33.:29:36.

out of time. Thank you all of you very much indeed for coming in. I am

:29:37.:29:42.

going to continue asking questions of Steve Hilton now. But not my

:29:43.:29:48.

questions, your questions. We are going to go on Facebook. You can

:29:49.:29:53.

find it on the Newsnight Facebook H. And you can fire questions in. Join

:29:54.:30:00.

us for that. Back to you in London. I will be on the truck tomorrow

:30:01.:30:11.

night in Chipping Norton, David Cameron's constituency.

:30:12.:30:12.

is one of the most famous lines in film.

:30:13.:30:15.

Well, the billionaire businessman Sir Phillip Green seemed to be

:30:16.:30:18.

channelling Robert de Niro at the Business and Pensions

:30:19.:30:20.

Committee when he aggressively took on one MP.

:30:21.:30:22.

But his pugnacity was matched by an apology to all the BHS staff

:30:23.:30:25.

caught up in the collapse, and a promise to try to secure

:30:26.:30:28.

A surprise, given that some MPs thought he wouldn't even show up.

:30:29.:30:32.

It was billed as the ultimate showdown.

:30:33.:30:42.

Sir, do you mind not looking at me like that all the time?

:30:43.:30:53.

Put your glasses back on, you look better with your glasses on.

:30:54.:30:59.

Up until now we have doing pretty good.

:31:00.:31:02.

I think that is an unnecessary statement, I think you should

:31:03.:31:06.

withdraw it and I think it is very rude.

:31:07.:31:09.

I don't like the way you're asking me that question.

:31:10.:31:13.

On what possible basis would I want to stop somebody buying

:31:14.:31:20.

Theatrics aside, Sir Philip Green clearly had a few key points

:31:21.:31:33.

He said he just made a bad call in selling to Dominic Chappell.

:31:34.:31:41.

He said he regretted and apologised for what had happened.

:31:42.:31:44.

And he said that even now he is working to try and find

:31:45.:31:47.

a solution to protect the pension benefits of BHS's workforce.

:31:48.:31:50.

But he seemed less keen to be drawn on some details in what had become

:31:51.:31:53.

an intricate web of he said, she said claims and counterclaims.

:31:54.:32:02.

One key issue, the pensions of 20,000 BHS staff.

:32:03.:32:08.

We will sort it, we will find a solution.

:32:09.:32:16.

I want to give an assurance to the 20,000 pensioners,

:32:17.:32:18.

But there was little further detail on offer.

:32:19.:32:24.

And the pensions regulator today said it had not received

:32:25.:32:27.

Back when the pension fund was sliding into deficit,

:32:28.:32:32.

Sir Philip's grip on the problem seemed more limited.

:32:33.:32:36.

So there is no question that you can answer about any

:32:37.:32:40.

aspect of the pension fund between 2000 and 2012?

:32:41.:32:45.

I would say, virtually no, is the answer.

:32:46.:32:48.

One thing did pique Sir Philip's interest.

:32:49.:32:56.

That was when the Pensions Protection Fund told BHS

:32:57.:32:58.

There was a lot of things going on in pensions at the time,

:32:59.:33:04.

but it was a massively deteriorating situation over a prolonged period.

:33:05.:33:08.

That seemed to receive less attention than the very small amount

:33:09.:33:12.

of money that the PPF levy was going to cost the business.

:33:13.:33:15.

So on some areas there was a lot of detail.

:33:16.:33:17.

In other, bigger picture areas which were certainly more important,

:33:18.:33:20.

Sir Philip may have a keen eye for detail on the shop floor,

:33:21.:33:27.

but today he stressed that in some areas he left the nitty-gritty

:33:28.:33:30.

vetting former bankrupt Dominic Chappell's suitability as a buyer.

:33:31.:33:43.

Sir Philip also said he took comfort in the advisers Mr Chappell had

:33:44.:33:46.

What I am saying to you is, rightly or wrongly, I took

:33:47.:33:51.

comfort from those two firms representing him,

:33:52.:33:54.

their respective firms being present, doing the sort

:33:55.:33:57.

of work they were doing, gave us some comfort.

:33:58.:34:00.

The fact that people have hired hands alongside them does not

:34:01.:34:03.

mean that it necessarily improves their credibility

:34:04.:34:05.

It may mean they may have people doing due diligence,

:34:06.:34:14.

people very good at signing, preparing legal documentation.

:34:15.:34:16.

You have still got to look at the individual.

:34:17.:34:18.

And Sir Philip is an experienced businessman who I am sure knows

:34:19.:34:21.

an experienced businessman when he sees one.

:34:22.:34:23.

Ultimately, Sir Philip Green found himself under the microscope.

:34:24.:34:28.

You seem extraordinarily thin-skinned to quite

:34:29.:34:31.

courteous questions, as if you do not want to be

:34:32.:34:33.

challenged in any way, shape or form.

:34:34.:34:35.

In terms of that wider corporate governance point,

:34:36.:34:48.

did anybody, particularly a non-exec director say,

:34:49.:34:51.

"I am not entirely certain, can we challenge you?"

:34:52.:34:53.

That does not seem to be the culture of the organisation?

:34:54.:34:56.

As things stand, it will soon disappear from our high streets.

:34:57.:35:02.

Its former owner seems a contradiction.

:35:03.:35:07.

Here is a fiery entrepreneur with strong opinions and a stronger

:35:08.:35:09.

Yet in terms of the detail of what went wrong, others

:35:10.:35:16.

Terrorism, Muslims, gun control, attitudes to LGBT people -

:35:17.:35:27.

Donald Trump has managed to take the appalling Orlando

:35:28.:35:29.

massacre and imbue it with his own brand of politics.

:35:30.:35:32.

Today, the Republican nominee said he would talk to the NRA about not

:35:33.:35:36.

allowing people on the terrorism watch list to buy guns,

:35:37.:35:40.

but he also repeated his call to ban Muslims from entering the US,

:35:41.:35:43.

even though the killer Omar Mateen was an American citizen.

:35:44.:35:46.

So, what will be the long term impact of the Orlando killings

:35:47.:35:49.

The small town of Fort Pierce where Mateen lived may

:35:50.:35:53.

It is also in the swing state of Florida.

:35:54.:35:58.

It was the railroad that first brought

:35:59.:36:12.

people to Fort Pierce - an

:36:13.:36:15.

unremarkable stop now along the Florida east coast main line.

:36:16.:36:18.

It's a town of fishing boats and seaside

:36:19.:36:22.

cafes, of churches and of small businesses, some thriving, some

:36:23.:36:24.

It is in many ways a typical Florida seaside town.

:36:25.:36:34.

But Fort Pierce was also home to Omar Mateen -

:36:35.:36:38.

the Orlando shooter prayed at this mosque.

:36:39.:36:41.

Everybody got in shock right now, you know?

:36:42.:36:43.

I see him, a lot of time he just come for pray.

:36:44.:36:49.

We had a little boy with him also sometimes, and

:36:50.:36:51.

This is a community under pressure, as America debates

:36:52.:36:57.

whether the problem is gun control or Islamic immigration.

:36:58.:37:00.

How do you feel as a Muslim in America?

:37:01.:37:05.

So, you know - this country been very nice to us,

:37:06.:37:10.

my kids also grown up in this country.

:37:11.:37:13.

So, if anything happens to actually this country, we

:37:14.:37:21.

The thing is that Omar Mateen is not the only person

:37:22.:37:28.

to have worshipped at this mosque who has been connected to Islamic

:37:29.:37:31.

In 2014, Munir Mohammad Abu Salha became the first known

:37:32.:37:35.

American suicide bomber to blow himself up in Syria.

:37:36.:37:39.

Back then it was the same story - the mosque said

:37:40.:37:44.

that he hadn't been radicalised here, that

:37:45.:37:47.

they've got no connections to extremism.

:37:48.:37:50.

Whatever the truth, it has put this little town right at

:37:51.:37:53.

Orlando was the deadliest shooting in this country's history.

:37:54.:38:02.

But there has been a mass shooting in America almost every day this

:38:03.:38:05.

month - and this is a pretty normal month.

:38:06.:38:09.

For some, the solution is simple - restrict the sale of guns.

:38:10.:38:13.

I ain't never touch a gun in my life.

:38:14.:38:16.

Never, these hands have never touch a gun.

:38:17.:38:18.

Weapon like that, no local person should have weapon like that.

:38:19.:38:29.

But others are just as convinced that the answer is more,

:38:30.:38:35.

It's a debate that rouses strong passions and fuels divisions

:38:36.:38:41.

He was an American but he was raised with...

:38:42.:38:55.

radical terrorist, you know, thinking.

:38:56.:39:00.

There's nobody else that's going to do it for us.

:39:01.:39:05.

I am going to get my concealed weapon permit.

:39:06.:39:08.

Has what happened in Orlando changed the way you think

:39:09.:39:16.

Oh, no, I have always been going for Trump.

:39:17.:39:20.

We've got to get rid of the politicians.

:39:21.:39:23.

Even if it's only for four years, let's get some things

:39:24.:39:25.

Maybe politicians will then learn, hey, we are put in here by

:39:26.:39:32.

the people, we are supposed to be working FOR the people, not working

:39:33.:39:35.

The partisan paralysis of the Obama years has left many in America

:39:36.:39:43.

disillusioned with the whole political class.

:39:44.:39:46.

Donald Trump is capitalising on that.

:39:47.:39:50.

In the aftermath of Orlando, he repeated

:39:51.:39:53.

his call for a halt to Muslim immigration.

:39:54.:39:58.

For many, such suggestion goes against the very

:39:59.:40:01.

But the mayor of Fort Pierce says that some people are

:40:02.:40:06.

People right now are saying, maybe we need to pay attention

:40:07.:40:13.

to what the Muslims are doing in our country.

:40:14.:40:16.

Americans don't want to hate - they do not want to do that.

:40:17.:40:23.

Fort Pierce has the same social and economic

:40:24.:40:29.

On one side of the tracks, the affluence of a town attracting

:40:30.:40:34.

On the other, the poverty of a country

:40:35.:40:39.

still suffering the after-effects of economic crisis.

:40:40.:40:42.

Florida is a swing state - it voted Bush in

:40:43.:40:45.

2000 - just - remember the "hanging chads".

:40:46.:40:47.

And then it voted Obama in both 2008 and

:40:48.:40:53.

2012, again by a really tight margin.

:40:54.:40:58.

And so events like the shooting in Florida really have the

:40:59.:41:04.

capacity to change, to determine the outcome of elections.

:41:05.:41:08.

They store the orange juice in here, and then on

:41:09.:41:11.

the other side of the wall is where they actually bottle it.

:41:12.:41:14.

Natalie's Orchid Island juice company produces

:41:15.:41:17.

3000 litres of Florida orange juice a week.

:41:18.:41:21.

It is a typical small, family-owned business.

:41:22.:41:25.

The eponymous Natalie says the tragedy in Orlando

:41:26.:41:27.

People do come together, people do mourn and they do

:41:28.:41:34.

and they do want to see our country as a whole succeed.

:41:35.:41:38.

But I think we are at the brink of change, with an

:41:39.:41:41.

And so I think each person stands on a certain side

:41:42.:41:44.

of the political spectrum, and I think it is only pushing them

:41:45.:41:47.

Investigators are still trying to figure out what exactly

:41:48.:41:50.

turned a man from Fort Pierce into a mass murderer.

:41:51.:41:54.

November's election is still some way off, but already

:41:55.:41:56.

the tragedy in Orlando has made its imprint on the campaign.

:41:57.:42:08.

That's all we have time for. Don't forget to join us in Chipping Norton

:42:09.:42:16.

tomorrow, the Prime Minister's backyard, as the referendum campaign

:42:17.:42:19.

ticks on. Until then, have a good night.

:42:20.:42:29.

The weather this week has been stuck in repeat

:42:30.:42:30.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS