10/06/2016 Newsnight


10/06/2016

England fans scuffle with police as the Euro16 football championship opens in France, Lord Hill discusses the EU referendum, and there is a farewell to Muhammad Ali.


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The wrong kind of relationship. England fans on the rampage in

:00:10.:00:23.

Marseille. It may be a fraud couple of weeks, but with the referendum

:00:24.:00:27.

campaign heating up, what affect will football fuelled search in

:00:28.:00:29.

nationalistic feeling have? Gabriel Gatehouse is

:00:30.:00:31.

in Marseille for us. Away from the football, who is

:00:32.:00:41.

scoring the goals in the campaign? I will ask my guest. And Britain's EU

:00:42.:00:45.

Commission gives his is experience of negotiating a trade deal. I

:00:46.:00:50.

wanted to do it quickly, the Americans wanted to do it quickly,

:00:51.:00:53.

and one narrow point, that took four years.

:00:54.:00:55.

And the world says farewell to Muhammad Ali.

:00:56.:00:58.

We will reflect on the man, the radical and his changing politics.

:00:59.:01:06.

There are some things common to most European nations,

:01:07.:01:10.

even including ours - universal health coverage,

:01:11.:01:12.

gun control, an expectation of at least four

:01:13.:01:14.

But more important than any of these, a shared belief that

:01:15.:01:19.

And that four-yearly feast of European football,

:01:20.:01:23.

the European Championships, is at last underway.

:01:24.:01:26.

France, the host nation, won the first match of the tournament

:01:27.:01:33.

However, this is an unusually interesting time for such a contest.

:01:34.:01:41.

Do we think we own Europe, do we hate it, or does our shared

:01:42.:01:44.

love of football bring us closer to the continent?

:01:45.:01:48.

the city hosting England's first game tomorrow evening.

:01:49.:01:57.

Good evening to you, Gabriel. Well, we have just moved back about

:01:58.:02:05.

one Street from where the confrontations have been happening.

:02:06.:02:08.

You can possibly see behind me the blue flashing lights of the police

:02:09.:02:13.

cars. The confrontations have been mostly between England fans and the

:02:14.:02:17.

riot police here. Quite a lot of drinking going on and some fans have

:02:18.:02:21.

been throwing bottles. The riot police have responded, as they do in

:02:22.:02:25.

France, quite quickly, with tear gassed sometimes, charging the fans.

:02:26.:02:29.

These are the kinds of confrontations that have been

:02:30.:02:38.

flaring up every now and then, mostly between England fans and the

:02:39.:02:40.

riot police, but we do now have also quite a few Russian fans walking

:02:41.:02:43.

through town, so the tensions are growing a bit. My impression is it

:02:44.:02:46.

is largely a minority who are involved in this. Most people here

:02:47.:02:49.

are in quite good spirits, good-natured, but some of the bars

:02:50.:02:54.

and cafes are now closing down and these confrontations do seem to be

:02:55.:02:55.

flaring up throughout the evening. For the second evening in a row,

:02:56.:03:03.

England is making itself heard in the centre of Marseille in a way

:03:04.:03:07.

that is making the locals nervous. The match doesn't even kick off

:03:08.:03:11.

until tomorrow. We filmed these celebrations just moments after

:03:12.:03:16.

police charged on a pub where fans were drinking and then throwing

:03:17.:03:19.

bottles. We saw three people arrested, at least one of them

:03:20.:03:24.

wearing an England shirt. Well, there is often a fine line between

:03:25.:03:29.

exuberant celebration and something more uncomfortable and this is right

:03:30.:03:34.

on that line. It is not clear where this is going now.

:03:35.:03:41.

Last night, police fired tear gas to break of a confrontation between

:03:42.:03:44.

locals, mostly young men, and some England fans. The violence was

:03:45.:03:49.

contained relatively quickly but in Marseille, these scenes are revoking

:03:50.:03:55.

uncomfortable memories. In 1998, there were running battles on the

:03:56.:03:59.

street when England play Tunisia here in their opening World Cup

:04:00.:04:03.

match. Dozens were injured, more than 100 arrested or deported. It

:04:04.:04:10.

was not England's finest hour. This year, with 24 nations taking part,

:04:11.:04:15.

these are the biggest European Championships ever. They come at a

:04:16.:04:20.

difficult time for France. There is the state of emergency, still in

:04:21.:04:24.

force after the attacks in Paris last year, then there are the public

:04:25.:04:26.

sector strokes over Labour conditions. A poll out this week

:04:27.:04:32.

suggest Euro scepticism in France is higher even than it is in Britain.

:04:33.:04:39.

In politics and in football, the French are keeping a wary eye on les

:04:40.:04:52.

Anglais. There used to be very, very unpleasant but I suppose they have

:04:53.:04:56.

calmed down. And les Anglais have a habit of causing trouble in Europe

:04:57.:05:01.

as well. They can be difficult, but it is a matter of business, you see?

:05:02.:05:06.

They try to get what they want and we should all do that, actually. All

:05:07.:05:12.

over Europe, they are talking about Brexit. Some with trepidation, some

:05:13.:05:16.

with glee. The referendum takes place in a hiatus between the group

:05:17.:05:21.

matches and the knockout stages and so it is possible that England,

:05:22.:05:25.

Wales and Northern Ireland could crash out of the European Union

:05:26.:05:29.

before they get booted out of the European Championships. David Ginola

:05:30.:05:41.

is covering the football for a French channel. Could football bring

:05:42.:05:47.

Europe together? I doubt about this. Why? Because we are all talking

:05:48.:05:51.

about Europe but on the other hand, what is really Europe? We keep our

:05:52.:05:56.

identities, England, France, Spain. We have our past, our history and as

:05:57.:06:02.

a nation, Europe is not already a nation for me, as common history

:06:03.:06:13.

bringing things altogether. Fans are still making their way south across

:06:14.:06:16.

France for tomorrow's match. We stopped off in the town of Rhiems,

:06:17.:06:24.

two hours from Paris. And came across these guys. John, Murray, Ken

:06:25.:06:33.

and Loz are the official England's supporters' band and haven't missed

:06:34.:06:38.

a tournament England have played since France 1998. So we are very,

:06:39.:06:42.

very hopeful this could be the year. But could the footy have an impact

:06:43.:06:47.

on the referendum? As soon as I heard the date, I thought, positive

:06:48.:06:50.

England performance, everyone will be happy and they will vote in. What

:06:51.:06:58.

is your rationale behind that? And some may think that because the

:06:59.:07:03.

tournament is here, there will be, I don't know, hundreds of thousands of

:07:04.:07:06.

football fans out of the country and which way would they vote? So let's

:07:07.:07:11.

have it in the middle of the tournament. When you come out of a

:07:12.:07:13.

tournament like this, does it make you feel more English or more

:07:14.:07:19.

European? I see where you are going. It makes us feel more English. We

:07:20.:07:28.

argue constantly about this issue in the bus, travelling everywhere that

:07:29.:07:33.

we travel, all the time. Ken, for example, finds himself agreeing with

:07:34.:07:36.

David Cameron. Never done that before in his life. You see, the

:07:37.:07:41.

band is very lucky to have Ken with us because he has a degree in

:07:42.:07:46.

politics. He is setting is right, you see. It was a very long time

:07:47.:07:51.

ago. When you could buy them on the Internet -- couldn't buy them on the

:07:52.:07:53.

Internet. Let's get Marseille in perspective.

:07:54.:08:03.

This is not, at the moment, a repeat of 1998. Many of the fans seem to be

:08:04.:08:08.

channelling the spirit of Leicester City, a bit drunk still, perhaps on

:08:09.:08:13.

the nectar of unexpected success. It is mostly pretty good-natured stuff.

:08:14.:08:17.

Away from the city centre this afternoon, there was time for some

:08:18.:08:23.

cultural immersion for the opposition. Surrogate, Maxine and a

:08:24.:08:28.

surrogate have come from 1,000 kilometres east of Moscow to make

:08:29.:08:29.

friends with the locals -- Sir Guy. But despite all the national

:08:30.:08:40.

bravado, the divisions, there are still occasional glimmers of that

:08:41.:08:44.

cherished notion that football can be a force for unity.

:08:45.:08:57.

He never loses a chance to show off his Russian on this programme.

:08:58.:09:06.

Well, it's not exactly clear how the football

:09:07.:09:08.

will affect the campaign - or the fans' behaviour -

:09:09.:09:10.

but it is clear that it has been a good week for the Leave campaign,

:09:11.:09:14.

the latest polls giving a considerable lead to Brexit.

:09:15.:09:16.

The pound fell this evening on the news.

:09:17.:09:18.

Tis' the season for football pundits, we have two

:09:19.:09:20.

I'm joined by Anne McElvoy from the Economist

:09:21.:09:24.

Let's just talk about how the football affects the referendum. So,

:09:25.:09:39.

if England does well, do people like one of those guys suggested, do we

:09:40.:09:45.

vote to stay in or does it make us confident and stay out? Probably not

:09:46.:09:48.

very much at all either way, if you want the honest answer, but I think

:09:49.:09:52.

if you look at it in a grand historical sweep, in the 1970s, when

:09:53.:09:57.

we joined the European economic community, it was because Britain

:09:58.:10:00.

was thought to be in permanent decline. We have the troubles in

:10:01.:10:04.

Northern Ireland, we were being written off as an economic power,

:10:05.:10:07.

still coming to terms with our loss of empire and we felt we needed

:10:08.:10:16.

something new, I think, and partly motivated Europe. I think today we

:10:17.:10:19.

feel are much more confident nation, London's success, generally Britain

:10:20.:10:21.

growing faster than Europe and I think we don't need Europe in some

:10:22.:10:25.

way and if we do well in the football, it reinforces the sense of

:10:26.:10:30.

we can survive on our own. Do you agree? I am not so sure, not that

:10:31.:10:35.

you would ever put me as a regular football pundit and if any if this

:10:36.:10:38.

is to be linked to the fortunes of the England football team, I

:10:39.:10:41.

wouldn't be confident that will turn out to good, but I think that's

:10:42.:10:45.

likely nationalistic surge, not necessarily what you showed in

:10:46.:10:50.

Marseille, this idea of yes we could give it a go alone, it is probably

:10:51.:10:54.

more use to Brexit in the short term but it will get the pushback from

:10:55.:10:57.

people who perhaps feel it is not the way that they want the country

:10:58.:11:01.

to be perceived. They are happy to go along with it at Eurovision or in

:11:02.:11:04.

the football, but I think they will also want to be more risk averse. It

:11:05.:11:10.

is the timid voters I am interested in. If it looks like you can run the

:11:11.:11:15.

show, though, you can stay in, if it looks like you are the boss of

:11:16.:11:18.

Europe you want to be in the club. Let's move onto this week. Do we

:11:19.:11:24.

believe these polls? The slightly unusual polls, 10% lives and stuff

:11:25.:11:29.

like that. I don't believe it, I party don't believe it, because we

:11:30.:11:33.

have no idea of the level of turnout and I think Nick Watt explained this

:11:34.:11:37.

on the programme the other night, if the turnout is relatively low, it

:11:38.:11:41.

favours Leave, because they are much more 90s elastic. If you start to

:11:42.:11:47.

move up, it favours Remain. But if you move up a further point, it

:11:48.:11:52.

flips back to Leave, because people who generally don't vote in

:11:53.:11:55.

elections, if they are brought out, people who prefer football to

:11:56.:11:58.

Newsnight, if they come out, they will Vote Leave macro. It is clearly

:11:59.:12:02.

a close race, I think that is all we can tell from the opinion polls. I

:12:03.:12:10.

think ten points is way beyond where Leave really are, but what is

:12:11.:12:13.

interesting at this point is momentum and where we are going. If

:12:14.:12:18.

we sat here a week ago on the Friday night, big debate, Michael Gove was

:12:19.:12:22.

on fire, it did look like a great time for Leave and I thought it

:12:23.:12:26.

would be nibbled away at this week because it was clear Remain wanted

:12:27.:12:30.

to get back to the risk factors, they are still wheeling out the

:12:31.:12:35.

heavy artillery and right to do so because the disruption would be

:12:36.:12:38.

considerable, they need to get their point across, and yet this figure,

:12:39.:12:44.

very odd figure of 350 million a week that we are supposed to pay to

:12:45.:12:48.

the EU, even though we get almost half of it back again one way or

:12:49.:12:52.

another, it does seem to have caught fire again for Leave. Yes, they have

:12:53.:12:56.

come under pressure about it but I haven't had the feeling that...

:12:57.:13:00.

There is a theory about that 350, that you have, which is that we keep

:13:01.:13:05.

banging on about it and we say it is a lie and repeated.

:13:06.:13:13.

A few years ago, Matthew Elliott ran a campaign on changing the electoral

:13:14.:13:18.

system, the thought was that the cost would be a few hundred million

:13:19.:13:23.

pounds and that should be spent on nurses, most people in Westminster

:13:24.:13:26.

thought, what a ridiculous thing to focus upon when we are talking about

:13:27.:13:30.

the grand notion of the electoral system but we are in a period of

:13:31.:13:34.

austerity, people object to any of their money going to things they do

:13:35.:13:37.

not want it spent on. Some people are offended by that ?350 million

:13:38.:13:42.

figure may not be accurate but many more people are offended about

:13:43.:13:48.

sending 200 million, ?100 million to Europe, of course it is inaccurate,

:13:49.:13:51.

because it understates the truth will stop if we wrote to remain, I

:13:52.:13:56.

hope we won't, but if we do, you can be sure that they will be asking

:13:57.:14:07.

more. The Economist, where I work, is pro-remain, but the Chancellor

:14:08.:14:11.

has come out and said it is going to cost ?300, ?4000... He did not quite

:14:12.:14:24.

add on that is Evan pens... ?4300. If it goes one is those were the

:14:25.:14:29.

other. -- he did not quite add on 37p. Where is meant, momentum feels

:14:30.:14:38.

more strongly there. Remain, with the exception of the television

:14:39.:14:42.

debate last night, when there was a lot putting the boot in, a lot of it

:14:43.:14:49.

was too personal and particular to the Tory party, if I look at remain,

:14:50.:14:54.

who is meant to be the start of the show? I don't know. The start of the

:14:55.:14:58.

show is David Cameron but we have a YouGov poll in the Times which is

:14:59.:15:02.

only 18% of people trust him on Europe. You have this person who is

:15:03.:15:08.

on the television all the time and he is a huge turn-off to voters,

:15:09.:15:11.

what they need is Jeremy Corbyn out there, the big story, I think, the

:15:12.:15:15.

Labour voters not supporting what their party leadership. The constant

:15:16.:15:23.

equivocation... Must it be Jeremy Corbyn? You have a front bench team

:15:24.:15:29.

on labour who can tell their voters. One person it should not be is Tony

:15:30.:15:34.

Blair. We have seen him, his trust ratings are incredibly low. We may

:15:35.:15:39.

need to find somebody like Martin Lewis, consumer rights expert. They

:15:40.:15:44.

deployed him. On the other side, James Dyson, who is, I think, in an

:15:45.:15:50.

opinion poll, the second most trusted person on these issues and

:15:51.:15:54.

he is coming out emphatically for leave, business person, successful

:15:55.:16:02.

entrepreneur, saying that we can thrive, that is going to continue

:16:03.:16:07.

the momentum. When people do not like political elite will, it is

:16:08.:16:11.

difficult to say that you have a campaign with more political elite

:16:12.:16:16.

oral! When Barack Obama came I did not like the rhetoric. Imagine how

:16:17.:16:24.

Americans would feel if it went the other way. Is a very respected

:16:25.:16:29.

figure, ratings up at the moment, it would in some way have a halo

:16:30.:16:37.

effect. Maybe the message carriers need to change. Time is getting

:16:38.:16:38.

short. Thank you very much. Well, you may feel you've heard

:16:39.:16:45.

a lot of the same voices popping up Each side seems to field

:16:46.:16:48.

a smallish squad. But what of the voices

:16:49.:16:51.

from Brussels? There have been increasingly shrill

:16:52.:16:53.

warnings as to what Brexit might German Finance Minister Schauble

:16:54.:16:56.

warned today that Britain would not be able to be in the single

:16:57.:17:00.

market if we vote out. But one British man at the heart

:17:01.:17:03.

of the institutions is the UK's EU Commissioner, Lord Hill,

:17:04.:17:06.

who is responsible for financial I sat down with him to talk though

:17:07.:17:08.

the implications and asked him whether British banks would be able

:17:09.:17:13.

to operate in the single the only way you could then have

:17:14.:17:16.

access to it would either be through

:17:17.:17:28.

something that is called by which the rules that would then

:17:29.:17:30.

be operating in the UK have to be deemed

:17:31.:17:35.

equivalent by the EU, or they would have to go in,

:17:36.:17:37.

each country that they wanted to go in, country by

:17:38.:17:40.

country, rules by rules. Those would be long,

:17:41.:17:42.

uncertain processes. I think they would add cost

:17:43.:17:44.

and that is why, I think, if you take your example

:17:45.:17:46.

of the banks, the banks say very clearly that if we leave,

:17:47.:17:49.

they are going to be cutting jobs. What I know, from having to go

:17:50.:17:52.

through equivalence processes with, say, the United States,

:17:53.:17:55.

where I have recently done one and where I wanted to do it quickly,

:17:56.:17:57.

the Americans wanted to do it quickly and one narrow point,

:17:58.:18:01.

that took four years. Is it your view that the rest

:18:02.:18:17.

of the EU would not take a constructive mind,

:18:18.:18:20.

put a constructive face Are you saying they would play

:18:21.:18:22.

hardball, because that is what some I think that if you put the boot

:18:23.:18:26.

on the other foot and you think of this as it would be,

:18:27.:18:32.

as a straightforward Trade negotiations aren't

:18:33.:18:34.

about love, they are about power. Business negotiations

:18:35.:18:37.

are about power. So if you think that you have,

:18:38.:18:44.

on the one hand, a group of nations who want Britain to stay,

:18:45.:18:48.

we would then say, no, we don't want you, we haven't been

:18:49.:18:50.

particularly flattering in some of the terms we have

:18:51.:18:53.

described some of these countries during the debate,

:18:54.:18:55.

and then we say, OK, now we want you to give us exactly

:18:56.:18:57.

what we want when you want it. I think it is a human reaction

:18:58.:19:01.

when you go through a divorce not then to fall over to give people

:19:02.:19:04.

the thing they are asking for. I think you also have to recognise,

:19:05.:19:07.

in financial services, which is our export industry,

:19:08.:19:10.

biggest contributor to taxation in the UK, that the shape

:19:11.:19:12.

of the financial services industry in France or in Germany is very

:19:13.:19:15.

different from the UK, so the rules that they would come up

:19:16.:19:17.

with would be different from the rules that they come up

:19:18.:19:20.

with with Britain in the EU. Is there the recognition

:19:21.:19:28.

in Brussels, in your view, as someone who has been there now

:19:29.:19:31.

for a couple of years, that the EU has a problem

:19:32.:19:34.

of overextending itself? It signs up for things

:19:35.:19:41.

without filling in the details, like a euro, like a single currency,

:19:42.:19:43.

or a Schengen zone without borders or without a common immigration

:19:44.:19:47.

policy or asylum policy, and then is kind of bewildered,

:19:48.:19:49.

bamboozled, when it all goes wrong ten years down the line,

:19:50.:19:52.

because they haven't actually thought it

:19:53.:19:53.

through when they did it? I think what there is is

:19:54.:19:59.

a recognition that we need to have a more bottom-up

:20:00.:20:02.

approach than before. I mean, personally, it is something

:20:03.:20:04.

I argue for the whole time, a bit less of a grandiose vision,

:20:05.:20:07.

a few less grands projets and a bit more find out what people want,

:20:08.:20:11.

deliver it on the ground, bit by bit, and try

:20:12.:20:13.

and get momentum going. In different countries,

:20:14.:20:20.

people remain committed to the euro and they recognise that Britain

:20:21.:20:31.

is never going to join and I think one of the things that has come out

:20:32.:20:34.

of the settlement that Mr Cameron struck with the other leaders

:20:35.:20:37.

is a better balance between eurozone and non-eurozone countries,

:20:38.:20:40.

so non-eurozone country, UK, our vital interests more safeguarded

:20:41.:20:41.

and eurozone countries, I think we all need them

:20:42.:20:43.

to integrate further. Right, so it is a project,

:20:44.:21:02.

more integration, but Britain is not That gets to one of the other

:21:03.:21:05.

sophisticated critics of the way this is going,

:21:06.:21:09.

that you're going to end up with a very lopsided federation

:21:10.:21:12.

with, let's call it, small Britain on the edge and a kind

:21:13.:21:14.

of union of 400 million members acting in unison called

:21:15.:21:17.

Eurozone, or Euroland. Is that going to work

:21:18.:21:19.

for the British? Well, first of all, I'm not certain

:21:20.:21:31.

that the premise of your question But you just said there

:21:32.:21:35.

is going to be more No, what I said was for the eurozone

:21:36.:21:38.

to work better, there needs to be further progress with banking union

:21:39.:21:43.

and more integration around the eurozone,

:21:44.:21:45.

but it does not follow from that that the argument that some

:21:46.:21:47.

people make, I think, which is that you have,

:21:48.:21:49.

on the one hand, one country, the United Kingdom, with one set

:21:50.:21:52.

of views and on the other, you have 27 countries

:21:53.:21:55.

with a Federalist blueprint in the top of every drawer,

:21:56.:21:57.

who are completely committed to grinding relentless

:21:58.:21:59.

further integration. That is not what it feels

:22:00.:22:02.

like on the ground at all. Now you might remember that last

:22:03.:22:19.

year, Newsnight documented the journeys of two

:22:20.:22:26.

families to this country, refugees from

:22:27.:22:27.

the Syrian civil war. They were in camps in Jordan

:22:28.:22:29.

and were brought here via the official British programme

:22:30.:22:31.

to rescue the most vulnerable people Well, we've been following

:22:32.:22:34.

the fortunes of those families and we have to report that for one

:22:35.:22:37.

of them, The teenage son of that family

:22:38.:22:39.

was in court today, charged with sexually

:22:40.:22:43.

assaulting a 14-year-old girl. It is too early to say very much

:22:44.:22:45.

about the circumstances but John Sweeney has sent us this

:22:46.:22:48.

report from Newcastle. VOICEOVER: How we cope with

:22:49.:22:55.

the refugees from a pitiless war is a test

:22:56.:22:58.

of humanity for Europe causing great stress,

:22:59.:23:01.

both for the politicians The British Government's response

:23:02.:23:04.

was to allow in 20,000 refugees over five years from countries like

:23:05.:23:08.

Jordan, shown here, and Lebanon. The refugees were selected by UNHCR

:23:09.:23:12.

and fast tracked if they were deemed We are proposing that Britain should

:23:13.:23:15.

resettle up to 20,000 Syrian refugees over the rest

:23:16.:23:20.

of this Parliament. In doing so, we will continue

:23:21.:23:22.

to show the world that this country is a country

:23:23.:23:25.

of extraordinary compassion. But at a time when immigration

:23:26.:23:32.

is perhaps the nation's some have warned of the risks

:23:33.:23:35.

of countries taking in large numbers of people

:23:36.:23:43.

from a very different culture. Ukip leader Nigel Farage has drawn

:23:44.:23:45.

widespread criticism this week by raising the spectre of sex

:23:46.:23:47.

attacks by immigrants What's happened is a very large

:23:48.:23:50.

number of young, single males have settled in Germany

:23:51.:23:55.

and in Sweden, who come from cultures

:23:56.:24:00.

where attitudes towards And the issue of how we as a country

:24:01.:24:01.

handle the tension between common humanity and social cohesion has

:24:02.:24:09.

come into focus here in Newcastle. In the Crown Court here today,

:24:10.:24:12.

three young men have been charged with sexual assault

:24:13.:24:14.

against a 14-year-old girl. One of them is also charged

:24:15.:24:19.

with sexually assaulting All the accused have

:24:20.:24:24.

pleaded not guilty. But at least one of those young

:24:25.:24:32.

men is a Syrian refugee on the Government's resettlement

:24:33.:24:35.

programme. People in Newcastle

:24:36.:24:36.

are aware of just how Newsnight has been following

:24:37.:24:38.

the family of one of those His name is Omar, 18,

:24:39.:24:43.

originally from Damascus. The family fled to Jordan,

:24:44.:24:52.

where they were selected by UNHCR to be resettled in Britain,

:24:53.:24:54.

where they have lived A fourth youth aged 16 has also been

:24:55.:24:57.

charged with sexual assault. and a sixth has been

:24:58.:25:12.

released without charges. When this case comes

:25:13.:25:23.

to trial later in the year, and not just by people

:25:24.:25:27.

in the north-east. Its outcome could have serious

:25:28.:25:30.

consequences for the Government's resettlement programme of Syrian

:25:31.:25:32.

refugees and also for the already and we will of course follow

:25:33.:25:35.

developments in that case. It was just as you would

:25:36.:25:59.

have expected He was greeted by crowds lining

:26:00.:26:01.

the streets, his body carried in a black limousine

:26:02.:26:06.

through the streets of his past, They were throwing flowers

:26:07.:26:09.

and chanting his name, some running alongside for segments

:26:10.:26:11.

of the journey. But how do you remember

:26:12.:26:13.

Muhammad Ali? The gentle man struggling

:26:14.:26:15.

with Parkinson's, or the younger, grittier, angrier

:26:16.:26:17.

political campaigner? We saw some of that persona in his

:26:18.:26:18.

interview with Michael Parkinson after beating George Foreman

:26:19.:26:21.

in the most famous boxing match in history,

:26:22.:26:23.

the Rumble in the Jungle. Muhammad Ali! The interview was a

:26:24.:26:35.

glimpse into Muhammad Ali as a performer and as a person. I told

:26:36.:26:40.

him, OK, Sakho, I am backing up, take your best shot, show me

:26:41.:26:44.

something, show me something, kid, you are not doing anything, you

:26:45.:26:48.

ain't got nothing, show me something, you are just a kid! --

:26:49.:26:53.

sucker. At times, he runs rings around Parkinson. Why do you fight

:26:54.:26:57.

people quite obviously not in your class? Like for example, who? Let me

:26:58.:27:10.

put an even better question to you, and... Did you see him... Let me put

:27:11.:27:22.

it another way, er, uh... LAUGHTER Not all of the interview was

:27:23.:27:26.

conducted in good humour. You are a white man, how are you going to get

:27:27.:27:34.

me on the TV and trapped me? Ain't no way, you can't beat me

:27:35.:27:39.

physically, nor mentally. You are really a joke, I am serious, this is

:27:40.:27:44.

a joke. During the at times fraught interview, Muhammad Ali makes

:27:45.:27:48.

controversial statements about race and integration, this is when the

:27:49.:27:52.

topic moved onto miniskirts. What man would want his woman covered up?

:27:53.:28:00.

He can go to work knowing that she is not being chased for her behind

:28:01.:28:05.

parts. I don't think there is any problem... That is because you are

:28:06.:28:12.

white. John Nater... Your nature is not righteous. It is not because I

:28:13.:28:18.

am white and you are black... That is nonsense and you know it. A

:28:19.:28:25.

radical campaigner, and by the time that he died, a national treasure,

:28:26.:28:26.

one man who was joining me now, Chuck D. Do you feel

:28:27.:28:39.

that perhaps the more radical past of Muhammad Ali has been forgotten

:28:40.:28:47.

this week, people like Donald Trump bemoaning his past, I wonder if you

:28:48.:28:50.

think something of his past has been lost? If you cannot talk about

:28:51.:28:59.

racism for a few days, that is truly Muhammad resting at peace, but the

:29:00.:29:05.

reality, it still exists, and especially in the United States of

:29:06.:29:10.

America, you guys over at the BBC, in the UK, you are shaking your head

:29:11.:29:15.

is over what is going on over there. Monstrosity in politics. And a

:29:16.:29:23.

presidential quest going on in the United States. Muhammad Ali, in all

:29:24.:29:29.

walks of life, allowed us to speak and rage against such

:29:30.:29:35.

ridiculousness. The anger and the expressions that he used, a lot of

:29:36.:29:38.

the language you would say is inverse racism, when he talks about

:29:39.:29:43.

whites in very generalising terms, but you think anybody can do that

:29:44.:29:48.

now, even someone who felt there was injustice? Is that kind of language,

:29:49.:29:52.

that kind of behaviour, is that acceptable today? Racism changes, it

:29:53.:30:00.

changes in shape, it changes in regions, it changes its complexions

:30:01.:30:04.

in a lot of different ways. You should speak out when you feel like

:30:05.:30:08.

something is an just out there. Favouring one over another. -- an

:30:09.:30:20.

just. -- unjust. Somebody who feels their faces being stepped on, they

:30:21.:30:26.

should be able to speak out. The answer to racism, when it feels like

:30:27.:30:30.

radiation. There is a lot of different ways in which racism

:30:31.:30:34.

exists, Muhammad Ali, speaking in the 60s and 70s, he took advantage

:30:35.:30:38.

of that voice, he spoke out, people were like, my goodness. When I did

:30:39.:30:46.

it in the 1980s, being a musician, they thought that it was shocking.

:30:47.:30:51.

But we learn from Muhammad Ali, what we have learned is that you need to

:30:52.:30:55.

be able to be beyond yourself if you think there is injustice going on.

:30:56.:31:01.

Use your platform. It was not just a national voice, it was seeing things

:31:02.:31:07.

that were unfair around the planet. That is the way that it should be,

:31:08.:31:13.

when it is not that way, why not speak out? How far do you think

:31:14.:31:16.

America has come from his day, what percentage of the issues that were

:31:17.:31:22.

facing him have now been resolved? There are still problems but how

:31:23.:31:28.

far? 21st-century does not exist in the same way it is it about new

:31:29.:31:31.

things have popped up, you look online, you see a lot of people

:31:32.:31:35.

using the same language that people used 60 years ago, and they say, it

:31:36.:31:41.

is called because it is socially accepted, but it is racially

:31:42.:31:46.

derogatory. That is the seed of a problem. When you see people running

:31:47.:31:49.

for the presidency of the United States and they talk about groupings

:31:50.:31:55.

of people like they are inferior... That is a problem. That guy got a

:31:56.:32:01.

public platform. You see racism behind closed doors. We as artists,

:32:02.:32:07.

entertainers, athletes, we learn from Muhammad Ali, in the 1960s, we

:32:08.:32:11.

speak out against that, we go further back, to people like Harry

:32:12.:32:20.

Belafonte and Paul Robeson to transcend ourselves. Taking

:32:21.:32:27.

advantage of the opportunity for the few to speak for the many.

:32:28.:32:35.

That is all we have time for, but we do leave you with the news that

:32:36.:32:41.

veteran crooner and no longer forever young Rod Stewart has been

:32:42.:32:45.

given a knighthood. In the New Year 's Honours list. Good night.

:32:46.:32:48.

Europe in just a moment but here at home, a messy picture.

:32:49.:32:55.

Showers from the word go, it will not take much sunshine and warmth to

:32:56.:33:02.

develop more showers during the day and some could be heavy

:33:03.:33:03.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines, with Evan Davis.

England fans scuffle with police as the Euro16 football championship opens in France, Lord Hill discusses the EU referendum, and there is a farewell to Muhammad Ali.


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