22/07/2016 Newsnight


22/07/2016

Similar Content

Browse content similar to 22/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

A shopping centre in Munich is targeted by up to three attackers

:00:00.:00:10.

leaving at least eight dead and many more injured.

:00:11.:00:15.

TRANSLATION: There are many badly injured, our crisis team is

:00:16.:00:17.

taking care of about 100 people and all the police forces

:00:18.:00:20.

Police are still hunting the attackers as hundreds of people

:00:21.:00:27.

are stranded by a public transport shutdown in the city.

:00:28.:00:32.

It's still a developing situation, but the German police say they're

:00:33.:00:35.

And we're at the Republican National Convention,

:00:36.:00:41.

gauging the reaction to Trump's vision for his presidency

:00:42.:00:44.

and his plan to take the fight to Hillary.

:00:45.:00:49.

The most important difference between our plan and that of our

:00:50.:00:55.

opponent is that our plan will put America first. CHEERING

:00:56.:01:08.

Abject and bloody terror has been visited upon another European city

:01:09.:01:12.

tonight and its perpetrators are still at large in Munich.

:01:13.:01:18.

Local police report that eight people were killed

:01:19.:01:20.

and many more severely injured after up to three gunmen

:01:21.:01:23.

opened fire at a shopping centre in the German city's Moosach

:01:24.:01:27.

district just over six and a half hours ago.

:01:28.:01:29.

Public transport has been suspended, citizens have been advised to stay

:01:30.:01:32.

indoors and the authorities have described an acute

:01:33.:01:34.

A gunman opens fire on a Munich street just before 4pm this

:01:35.:01:51.

afternoon. GUNFIRE People around the area fleet, as

:01:52.:02:00.

there's more shop inside the Olympia shopping centre just across the

:02:01.:02:04.

road. -- more shots. It is in the north-west of Munich. Eyewitnesses

:02:05.:02:07.

in the shopping centre described the scene. TRANSLATION: My wife and

:02:08.:02:15.

daughter are missing. I was inside the shopping centre that my wife

:02:16.:02:18.

wasn't with me. I still have stuff to do and she wanted to go to

:02:19.:02:22.

another shop. I said, go ahead, with my daughter, and I will, to you

:02:23.:02:27.

afterwards. I saw people running out with them and I asked what is going

:02:28.:02:31.

on, no one had a clue. Only one man said there is a man with a gun he

:02:32.:02:37.

was shooting other people. The situation is still very unclear and

:02:38.:02:41.

developing but police say there are at least eight casualties with up to

:02:42.:02:44.

three gunmen involved and still on the run.

:02:45.:02:50.

TRANSLATION: There are many badly injured, our crisis team is taking

:02:51.:02:56.

care of about 100 people and all the police forces are busy with the

:02:57.:02:57.

manhunt. It's the panic there were reports of

:02:58.:03:04.

shootings elsewhere in this city although they now appear not to be

:03:05.:03:08.

correct. Police have told people to stay indoors. Metro and bus services

:03:09.:03:14.

have been stopped and the area around the shopping more has been

:03:15.:03:19.

blocked off by police. Other videos of the attack at or attackers have

:03:20.:03:22.

also appeared. Here, one walks around a car park roof with a

:03:23.:03:27.

handgun. In an extraordinary exchange with an onlooker, he

:03:28.:03:31.

apparently insults Turks and says, "I am German". Could this be a clue

:03:32.:03:38.

to his motives? An attack by far right extremists on the fifth

:03:39.:03:42.

anniversary of the attack by Anders Breivik in Norway. Police have said

:03:43.:03:47.

they are treating it as suspected terrorism, but we don't know any

:03:48.:03:51.

more. The idea of taking a gun and shooting in a public location is

:03:52.:03:54.

something we have seen repeatedly being used by groups with also sub

:03:55.:03:58.

ideology is. We recently saw a spree shooting in a nightclub. Anders

:03:59.:04:04.

Breivik used guns to kill lots of people. It is something we have seen

:04:05.:04:10.

different ideologies using. It is a basic fundamental ideology, get a

:04:11.:04:14.

gun and shoots lots of people. If you have a gun you can kill quite a

:04:15.:04:18.

few people and have a high impact. Earlier this week Germany

:04:19.:04:22.

experienced its first Isis related attack when a teenage refugee armed

:04:23.:04:27.

with an axe targeted passengers on a train. Another possibility is that

:04:28.:04:32.

today buzz events are the latest in a series of jihadi attacks in Europe

:04:33.:04:36.

-- today's events. Whatever the motive, if it is at all political

:04:37.:04:40.

comment could have a far-reaching impact in Germany. Tonight, though,

:04:41.:04:44.

the search for those responsible still continues.

:04:45.:04:47.

Well Andrew Plant can now join us from Munich.

:04:48.:04:51.

Good evening. What is the very latest situation?

:04:52.:04:58.

A lot of confusion here when we landed

:04:59.:05:00.

because, obviously, most people are coming here just to try to get

:05:01.:05:03.

back to their homes, but told they can't

:05:04.:05:05.

get their normal buses and taxis into the city

:05:06.:05:07.

centre, because so many roads are closed.

:05:08.:05:09.

It shows you the lockdown Munich city centre is in right now.

:05:10.:05:16.

The latest, as we understand it, here on the manhunt is this:

:05:17.:05:19.

Eyewitnesses are saying there were three men with guns.

:05:20.:05:21.

There are reports that one of those men has died.

:05:22.:05:24.

Police haven't confirmed that, but they have

:05:25.:05:25.

Possibly three men on the run right now. Metro quickly evacuated because

:05:26.:05:34.

one person had said the gunmen had gone underground. Quickly evacuated

:05:35.:05:37.

and searched, no reports of any arrest. We have heard that police

:05:38.:05:40.

are being drafted in from Austria. We are only about 50 miles away here

:05:41.:05:44.

from the German-Austrian border. We also know that German

:05:45.:05:47.

officials have said so they are beefing up

:05:48.:05:49.

their border security. That shows you the scale of the

:05:50.:05:55.

manhunt is not just in Munich but potentially over a much wider area.

:05:56.:05:59.

What is the mood amongst all very people? You mentioned the lockdown

:06:00.:06:02.

and confusion that many of the streets will be deserted, of course.

:06:03.:06:04.

Track but many. Munich police have used social media

:06:05.:06:11.

to their benefit. In the first hour or so they used social media to ask

:06:12.:06:15.

people not to share pictures of the attack but they also used it to get

:06:16.:06:19.

a wide message out to a lot of people very quickly. They said,

:06:20.:06:22.

please stay away from the streets of Munich. If you are at home, stay at

:06:23.:06:26.

home, don't come outside until we know what the situation is. They use

:06:27.:06:30.

it to contact local taxi drivers, not to pick up fares and bring them

:06:31.:06:42.

into the city centre. One more thing going on, to help people who are in

:06:43.:06:45.

Munich perhaps stranded and not sure where to go to take shelter. People

:06:46.:06:47.

had been tweeting with the hashtag open door. If you are stuck and

:06:48.:06:50.

don't know where to go, you can look on twitter, find someone who has

:06:51.:06:53.

been tweeting that hashtag. There are lots of them out there right

:06:54.:06:56.

now, you can go to their home and they will give you sang tree until

:06:57.:06:58.

people know what is going on right now. Thank you.

:06:59.:07:01.

Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban is here in the studio.

:07:02.:07:05.

As we have heard, it is a fast moving and incredibly fluid

:07:06.:07:12.

situation in Munich. What are the challenges the police are facing in

:07:13.:07:15.

getting inaccurate picture of what has happened and ideally, of course,

:07:16.:07:19.

catching the people responsible? -- an accurate. We have seen this from

:07:20.:07:25.

a number of incidents, echo chamber of social media and people reporting

:07:26.:07:30.

things, some distortion, perhaps, as to what we are actually looking at.

:07:31.:07:34.

Are there multiple shooters, really? We saw this report in Dallas when it

:07:35.:07:38.

happened a couple of weeks ago. It turned out to be one. Long firearms,

:07:39.:07:43.

rifle type weapons? I very much doubt it. Bubbly people seeing

:07:44.:07:47.

plainclothes police getting involved. Arch probably people. At

:07:48.:07:52.

the last few hours, no reports of gunshots -- probably people. The

:07:53.:07:56.

police have suggested that the ninth person they found dead may well be

:07:57.:08:01.

the gunmen in Black, who we saw in that film. One has to ask, were

:08:02.:08:05.

there ever another one or two? If there were, given the absence of any

:08:06.:08:09.

ongoing incidents in the last hour or two, it is possible they had

:08:10.:08:13.

escaped but equally possible and looking increasingly likely, that

:08:14.:08:16.

this is a lone gunmen who may now have taken his own life. You

:08:17.:08:20.

mentioned the other incidents we have seen in the continent on the

:08:21.:08:25.

last few weeks and months. We don't know that much about the German

:08:26.:08:29.

authorities's capacity to cope. Does it differ from the French, for

:08:30.:08:34.

example? It would be fair to say that when you talk to the British

:08:35.:08:37.

people, military and police who might be involved in this, they look

:08:38.:08:42.

with some envy at the capabilities that those two countries can deploy.

:08:43.:08:46.

If we look at the situation in Germany, for example, to night, I

:08:47.:08:51.

can see officers from the special armed unit of the city police and

:08:52.:08:58.

also a special unit commander SEK, almost like SAS assault forced

:08:59.:09:03.

deployed by the state police and they were there incredibly quickly

:09:04.:09:07.

at that shopping centre. It is an impressive response. The analogous

:09:08.:09:12.

place would be Manchester or Glasgow. You talk to the police and

:09:13.:09:16.

there is a pretty small number of specialist firearms officers on duty

:09:17.:09:20.

even in those large British cities on the average day. It is a very

:09:21.:09:24.

extensive response the Germans can bring. Also some other resources

:09:25.:09:29.

coming in, GS, G nine, national SAS type unit is also on its way down to

:09:30.:09:33.

Munich. If there are the people are at large, they will probably run

:09:34.:09:36.

them to ground quite quickly. Thank you very much.

:09:37.:09:39.

Joining me via Skype from Berlin is Yassin Musharbash,

:09:40.:09:41.

terrorism analyst for the German national weekly paper, Die Zeit.

:09:42.:09:48.

Many thanks for your time. We have heard some speculation that it may

:09:49.:09:55.

be a Lone Wolf attacker with perhaps no affiliations. The alternative, of

:09:56.:10:00.

course, it even recent events in Nice and elsewhere is that there

:10:01.:10:03.

will be an Islamist subtext to this attack, tell us a bit about the

:10:04.:10:08.

situation in Germany. With regard to the fear of Islamist terrorism. The

:10:09.:10:15.

fear is large. Only a couple of days ago we witnessed a terror attack in

:10:16.:10:20.

Germany. The first one, as a matter of fact, that was claimed by the

:10:21.:10:23.

Islamic State. This was on the train? Exactly. Everybody here was

:10:24.:10:31.

on high alert already. As the news broke, after the shooting incident

:10:32.:10:35.

in Munich, I believe what most people assumed immediately was that

:10:36.:10:37.

this is most likely get hardest attack. -- jihadist. As your

:10:38.:10:45.

correspondence that, we do not know. It is too early to say at this

:10:46.:10:49.

moment. All options are still on the table. Ranging from a single shooter

:10:50.:10:56.

to a jihadist cell of three people, some of whom may perhaps still be on

:10:57.:11:00.

the run, we don't know yet. Of course. Tell me a bit about the

:11:01.:11:04.

atmosphere in Germany and specifically in Munich. We know

:11:05.:11:07.

Angela Merkel's decision to invite 1 million refugees into the country

:11:08.:11:12.

has been politically, one might say, controversial. Others would describe

:11:13.:11:17.

it as a toxic environment. One in which people have been fearing the

:11:18.:11:26.

worst? Well, Munich was... The city in Germany where most of the

:11:27.:11:29.

refugees poured into the country, last year. Most of the pictures that

:11:30.:11:35.

made their way around the world of German helpers welcoming refugees

:11:36.:11:40.

were actually filmed in Munich. There is a reason we call Munich the

:11:41.:11:42.

city of hearts in Germany. It is quite possible that this

:11:43.:11:49.

reputation that the city holds is something that a jihadist cell would

:11:50.:11:56.

like to attack and undermine. It is also quite clear that if this turns

:11:57.:12:02.

out to be a jihadist attack, it will change public and political debate

:12:03.:12:05.

in Germany quite profoundly. But, again, we do not know yet, we will

:12:06.:12:10.

have to wait. I appreciate you are repeatedly stressing that. It can't

:12:11.:12:16.

be reiterated often enough. Let's just contemplate, momentarily, the

:12:17.:12:18.

opposite possibility. The possibility that it is perhaps

:12:19.:12:24.

somebody inspired by the anti-Islamist, anti-refugee feeling.

:12:25.:12:28.

That there has been an upsurge in that sentiment in Germany as well.

:12:29.:12:32.

They're absolutely has been. But it hasn't taken on terrorist forms yet.

:12:33.:12:36.

That would be something completely new as well. We have to be reminded

:12:37.:12:40.

that today is the fifth anniversary of the Anders Breivik attack and

:12:41.:12:44.

jihadists think in dates like this. We did not know if right-wing

:12:45.:12:48.

terrorists do, maybe they will and have started today the is another

:12:49.:12:53.

option. That we are talking about a disturbed individual. Dutchman there

:12:54.:12:56.

is another. The footage that was already alluded to in your report,

:12:57.:13:00.

the footage that was shot most likely at the very beginning of this

:13:01.:13:04.

whole attack was a very confusing dialogue with an onlooker. I think

:13:05.:13:09.

it may point towards an attacker with mental issues. That is a third

:13:10.:13:15.

option. At this point we have no indication of a political background

:13:16.:13:19.

but we just don't have it. The terror level, presumably, has been

:13:20.:13:22.

at the highest possible since that type in Wurzburg? -- that attack.

:13:23.:13:29.

All of Germany has been in high alert. That is properly why the

:13:30.:13:33.

police in Munich was able to react in the way they did, which is

:13:34.:13:37.

commendable. Including that use of social media. Thank you.

:13:38.:13:41.

To America now, where Emily Maitlis has spent much of this week watching

:13:42.:13:44.

the Republican party formally endorse Donald Trump's

:13:45.:13:46.

It has been, it's fair to say, a most unconventional Convention.

:13:47.:13:53.

It was an angry speech here in Cleveland last night,

:13:54.:13:55.

from a man laying out a quasi-apocalyptic vision of the

:13:56.:13:58.

country America had become, the violence, the terrorism, the

:13:59.:14:00.

low-paid jobs and the lack of self-esteem.

:14:01.:14:05.

He called himself the candidate of law and order.

:14:06.:14:08.

He invoked some of Nixon's 1968 campaign against that

:14:09.:14:10.

There were great cheers, every time he mentioned blue lives.

:14:11.:14:18.

He thanked the police to loud applause when, at one point, they

:14:19.:14:21.

bundled out a protest, trying to interrupted him.

:14:22.:14:26.

He had an enthusiasm in his voice for

:14:27.:14:28.

something not a million miles away from a police state.

:14:29.:14:31.

What this was not, though, was a traditional Republican

:14:32.:14:33.

There was no mention of abortion or gun rights.

:14:34.:14:39.

Or of the Constitution or of amendments.

:14:40.:14:42.

He, at one point, even tiptoed on LGBT issues to the

:14:43.:14:47.

surprise, perhaps shock of many in the hall.

:14:48.:14:50.

No, this is a man who knows he's turned his own party upside

:14:51.:14:53.

down and now wants to make a pitch invasion on the Democrat's party.

:14:54.:15:03.

The stage was set for a night Stars Stripes American optimism. But the

:15:04.:15:12.

American nightmare is replaced in American dream. Libya is in ruins,

:15:13.:15:23.

and our ambassador and his staff were left helpless to die at the

:15:24.:15:28.

hands of savage killers. This is the legacy of Hillary Clinton - death,

:15:29.:15:37.

destruction, terrorism and weakness. He told them, shouting at times, the

:15:38.:15:46.

solution was forced, blocking migrants, restoring law and order,

:15:47.:15:52.

and this old favourite, the war. -- the wall.

:15:53.:16:04.

He is a military man when he is talking about building a wall. What

:16:05.:16:12.

is the matter with building a wall? I visited the Vatican and it has a

:16:13.:16:21.

wall around it. Why? This speech sought not to reassure but to anger.

:16:22.:16:28.

He also appealed to Bernie Sanders supporters worried about losing

:16:29.:16:33.

their jobs overseas. I don't want to diminish our freedom and

:16:34.:16:38.

independence. We will never, ever sign bad trade deals. America,

:16:39.:16:51.

first, again. America first! I am sure they will listen to his speech

:16:52.:16:54.

with interest and make a judgment on it. It is hard to reconcile a speech

:16:55.:17:01.

on law and order and immigration with Bernie Sanders supporters. All

:17:02.:17:08.

those Bernie Sanders supporters were not socialists. Many were just

:17:09.:17:12.

people who were angry with what was going on. The most memorable slogans

:17:13.:17:15.

have been the ones aimed at Clinton. Last night, Donald Trump

:17:16.:17:24.

reached above the name-calling to insist

:17:25.:17:26.

to the crowd, let's beat her. I think Americans know the choice

:17:27.:17:29.

is between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump

:17:30.:17:31.

and they will go with Donald Trump. They want somebody who can

:17:32.:17:33.

shake up Washington. And Washington, this time,

:17:34.:17:35.

means another Clinton. The baton passes to Philadelphia,

:17:36.:17:37.

next week, when their presidential candidate has to turn her own

:17:38.:17:39.

convention into something I am joined by the former speech

:17:40.:18:01.

writer for George W Bush, and from Los Angeles by Charlotte laws.

:18:02.:18:08.

Peter, I will begin with you, if I may. It is traditionally quite a

:18:09.:18:13.

cheerful occasion, the convention, not necessarily an adjective you

:18:14.:18:17.

would apply to the last few days. That's right. This was the longest

:18:18.:18:20.

and darkest convention speech we have ever seen. The America that

:18:21.:18:27.

Donald Trump was describing was dystopian - dark, dreary, broken and

:18:28.:18:33.

bleeding, almost beyond repair. It was quite extraordinary. It fits his

:18:34.:18:36.

personality, and I think his premises that things are so -- his

:18:37.:18:43.

premise is that things are so bleak that only Donald Trump can fix what

:18:44.:18:46.

is wrong with America. He is incapable of fixing the problems we

:18:47.:18:50.

have, but I think his description of America is so out of touch with

:18:51.:18:54.

America that it won't work. There are problems in the country, but

:18:55.:18:57.

they are discreet and they can be solved. Hillary Clinton and the

:18:58.:19:02.

Democrats will drive a truck through the holes he left in the Cleveland

:19:03.:19:07.

speech. Why was your role was not their? Because Donald Trump is

:19:08.:19:13.

antithetical to a lot of what George W Bush believed in. It is

:19:14.:19:17.

antithetical to a lot of what Ronald Reagan believed in. He is not a

:19:18.:19:26.

conservative, hardly even a Republican, and he is redefining the

:19:27.:19:30.

party in ways that a lot of us think of as dangerous and pernicious. He

:19:31.:19:34.

is a threat to the Republican Party, and I think that was clear from his

:19:35.:19:39.

speech, but it has been clear from what he has been saying and how he

:19:40.:19:46.

has been conducting himself. We have never seen anything like him, and I

:19:47.:19:51.

hope we don't again. Charlotte, you are shaking your head. Do you

:19:52.:19:57.

recognise this description of America as being cowed and close to

:19:58.:20:03.

dystopia? Absolutely. People in this country, many of them, believe that

:20:04.:20:07.

Donald Trump is talking about the situation as it is. People are

:20:08.:20:11.

fearful and realise there is a gap between the rich and poor, they

:20:12.:20:15.

realise corporations are in control and the elite. He is an outsider. We

:20:16.:20:19.

are happy that the Bush family did not speech at the convention,

:20:20.:20:23.

because that would have made it an establishment convention. His speech

:20:24.:20:28.

was a balance between toughness and compassion. I don't agree that it

:20:29.:20:35.

was all dark and dreary. It was inspirational, and if you look at

:20:36.:20:39.

the end section, you will see how it was inspirational and how he got the

:20:40.:20:43.

crowd revved up, so I don't agree with that description. Never is one

:20:44.:20:48.

person who agrees with your analysis. I think he used the word

:20:49.:20:56.

overjoyed to describe it, the leader of the Ku Klux Klan. What does he

:20:57.:21:00.

see an Donald Trump that feels his heart with joy? He released a

:21:01.:21:07.

statement along the lines of, I am happy with Donald Trump for

:21:08.:21:12.

championing my causes. I am not sure that David Duke supports Donald

:21:13.:21:16.

Trump. I believe he supports Hillary Clinton. It is unfair to make that

:21:17.:21:20.

comment. He is running for the Senate, and he said yesterday that

:21:21.:21:26.

he was overjoyed to see Donald Trump championing the causes that he has

:21:27.:21:30.

spent his whole life pursuing. It is unequivocal. I wonder what you think

:21:31.:21:36.

he sees in Donald Trump that appeals to a textbook white supremacist will

:21:37.:21:42.

stop I am part of the animal rights community in Los Angeles, and most

:21:43.:21:47.

of the ones that I know support Donald Trump. I understand that, but

:21:48.:21:55.

I am more interested in what this man sees in Donald Trump. Why is he

:21:56.:22:03.

overjoyed? I have no idea, but I know a lot of people who are

:22:04.:22:07.

overjoyed by Trump who are on the left. You might want to ask the same

:22:08.:22:11.

question about them. I think it is an unfair question, because you are

:22:12.:22:16.

singling out one person who likes Trump when there are lots of people,

:22:17.:22:20.

liberals and Bernie Sanders supporters, who support Trump. It is

:22:21.:22:24.

unfair to try to equate Trump with racism. I wonder why he appeals to

:22:25.:22:32.

such a prominent racist, but if you don't know, that's fine. Peter, when

:22:33.:22:37.

we hear that the Bernie Sanders contingent will be crucial to Mr

:22:38.:22:45.

Trump's chances of moving beyond the base, what buttons will he be trying

:22:46.:22:48.

to push among the non-traditional Republican voters? Trade, the button

:22:49.:22:55.

he pushed all night and the button he has been pushing since he got

:22:56.:23:02.

into the campaign. His bet is that by being a protectionist, and is he

:23:03.:23:07.

-- and he is as fierce a protectionist as we are likely to

:23:08.:23:11.

see, that is what he thinks is his way into those photos. The Sanders

:23:12.:23:22.

voters are really at odds with him. They find Mr Trump repellent. Who

:23:23.:23:31.

will you vote for? I don't know yet. I won't vote for Mr Trump under any

:23:32.:23:35.

conditions, for the reasons I sketched out. I think he is

:23:36.:23:40.

dangerous, erratic, unstable. I think he has a personality disorder,

:23:41.:23:44.

and I think he is unprincipled and would be a threat to the country. I

:23:45.:23:48.

think he is also a threat to the Republican Party. Both are things

:23:49.:23:53.

that I care about, the country and the party. I am not inclined to vote

:23:54.:23:57.

for Mrs Clinton because I am a conservative and she is a liberal.

:23:58.:24:01.

She stands for everything I have stood against in my life. That would

:24:02.:24:07.

be a difficult vote. I may not vote. I will have to see. I will cross

:24:08.:24:12.

that bridge when the 7th of November comes around, the day before the

:24:13.:24:17.

election. I am quite certain I will not vote for Donald Trump. There is

:24:18.:24:22.

a third point of this triangle, albeit a less prominent one. Gary

:24:23.:24:27.

Johnson, the Libertarian candidate. Jeb Bush, your former boss's

:24:28.:24:39.

brother, might support him. I am not a libertarian, I am a Conservative.

:24:40.:24:44.

I have some sympathy for libertarian views, but not a lot. There is a big

:24:45.:24:49.

difference between being a Conservative and a libertarian. My

:24:50.:24:53.

inclination is I will probably vote for someone else on the right. Ben

:24:54.:24:58.

Sass is a senator from Nebraska, very principled and intelligent. He

:24:59.:25:04.

has been a critic of Trump, and very principled about that. We will see.

:25:05.:25:08.

My vote will not make a difference, but you know, people do, as Ted Cruz

:25:09.:25:15.

said, have to vote with their conscience. Charlotte, I think we

:25:16.:25:20.

know how you will cast your vote. Many thanks for your time this

:25:21.:25:25.

evening, and to Peter. Back in Britain.

:25:26.:25:27.

He was one of the big beasts of Brexit but,

:25:28.:25:29.

with victory secured, Iain Duncan Smith has found himself

:25:30.:25:31.

banished to the back benches by Theresa May.

:25:32.:25:33.

A month on from the referendum result, today seemed an opportune

:25:34.:25:36.

moment to find out what the former Work and Pensions Secretary

:25:37.:25:39.

So when I interviewed him earlier today I began by asking

:25:40.:25:43.

whether he was disappointed he was less front and centre

:25:44.:25:48.

than Boris Johnson and Michael Gove when the results of

:25:49.:25:50.

In my view, it's always been on this, 24 years ago, when I voted

:25:51.:25:56.

against Maastricht I actually was not for the UK

:25:57.:26:00.

leaving the European Union, I believed it

:26:01.:26:04.

Over the years, as I've seen more treaties go through, I

:26:05.:26:09.

The main point I would make about this

:26:10.:26:13.

I was involved a lot in the debate and I

:26:14.:26:16.

don't have any personal prejudice in terms of wanting myself to be front

:26:17.:26:20.

and centre on this, never had really.

:26:21.:26:21.

I know you have spoken about the ?350 million pledge that wasn't

:26:22.:26:26.

There are a few other areas where perhaps people might

:26:27.:26:29.

Well, to be fair, you could probably argue

:26:30.:26:35.

both sides of the case there were lots of different types of stories.

:26:36.:26:38.

There was a wonderful story how all families would be ?4,300

:26:39.:26:41.

The point is, on balance, I don't think people actually made

:26:42.:26:46.

their decision on elements like that.

:26:47.:26:51.

I think what they made their

:26:52.:26:52.

decision on was, on the basis, did they feel instinctively

:26:53.:26:55.

that the UK was better off out for them.

:26:56.:26:57.

Are you more comfortable today about the fact

:26:58.:26:59.

that the country is being controlled by a Remainer?

:27:00.:27:04.

We are a Conservative Government, we had four more years to run...

:27:05.:27:12.

You were pretty clear that you wanted a Brexiteer in the big job.

:27:13.:27:16.

I wanted to leave but that slightly went south

:27:17.:27:18.

when Mr Gove and Mr Johnson didn't quite get their act together.

:27:19.:27:21.

I was public in saying that I thought if they were together,

:27:22.:27:26.

My sense about this, though, is that Theresa May,

:27:27.:27:31.

I have known her for a long time, I have worked with her in

:27:32.:27:34.

Cabinet, I know if she gives her word on something, she will keep it.

:27:35.:27:38.

They will get on with it now and we will

:27:39.:27:44.

I sense, and perhaps I'm wrong, you would be

:27:45.:27:48.

rather more keen to be involved in these processes and negotiations.

:27:49.:27:50.

Yes I am, as a member of Parliament, I have a view and I will make that

:27:51.:27:56.

By the way, I don't regret that I'm not in government,

:27:57.:28:01.

I resigned back in March, for different reasons.

:28:02.:28:03.

I was in no hurry to get back in government.

:28:04.:28:05.

I've got a lot I want to get on with.

:28:06.:28:08.

I'm going back to the Centre for Social

:28:09.:28:10.

Justice and I want to get on with other things,

:28:11.:28:12.

David Davis has got your job, hasn't he?

:28:13.:28:16.

I wish him the best of luck. I'm an old friend of David's.

:28:17.:28:20.

Liam Fox? No, no.

:28:21.:28:21.

You have to acknowledge that had your candidate for the

:28:22.:28:24.

leadership, Andrea Leadsom, succeded, you would have

:28:25.:28:25.

expected to be at the top table?

:28:26.:28:27.

Even so, I wasn't really asking for a job.

:28:28.:28:29.

My point was I wanted to get the right people in place.

:28:30.:28:32.

Is Boris Johnson the right person to be Foreign Secretary?

:28:33.:28:35.

Now you have a very different setup, because

:28:36.:28:39.

The European stuff is now in another department

:28:40.:28:43.

and the trade stuff is carved off into a Trade Department,

:28:44.:28:45.

All of that means that Boris has a job to

:28:46.:28:50.

do, to tell the world, this is an important factor,

:28:51.:28:52.

to tell the world that actually, Britain is open for

:28:53.:28:54.

business and Britain is a country that has always managed through

:28:55.:28:57.

difficult times and good times and will continue to do so.

:28:58.:29:00.

Actually, the funny thing about Boris, he is

:29:01.:29:01.

pretty good at doing that kind of stuff.

:29:02.:29:03.

To steer you back to the new Prime Minister and the notion of

:29:04.:29:09.

mandate and the notion of wanting, by your own admission,

:29:10.:29:12.

a Brexit leader and not getting one, does she have a mandate

:29:13.:29:14.

She has stood for an election to lead the Conservative Party and

:29:15.:29:23.

the leader of the Conservative Party de facto has a right to claim

:29:24.:29:28.

The country has asked that Britain leaves the European Union.

:29:29.:29:37.

She has said we will now act on that.

:29:38.:29:39.

It is a very simple statement and a very simple

:29:40.:29:41.

comment from her that she is going to do that.

:29:42.:29:44.

Any sympathy for Messrs Cameron and Osborne?

:29:45.:29:47.

It's a tough job being in government.

:29:48.:29:48.

It's particular tough being Prime Minister.

:29:49.:29:50.

I've worked very closely with the Prime Minister for six years.

:29:51.:29:52.

You weren't so close to the Chancellor, were you?

:29:53.:29:54.

We didn't always see eye to eye, to be fair.

:29:55.:30:02.

At the end, we had a chain of disagreements,

:30:03.:30:06.

which culminated in my resigning from the government.

:30:07.:30:07.

Have you spoken to either of them since resigning?

:30:08.:30:10.

I have, since then. Which one?

:30:11.:30:12.

I wouldn't say they were hugely long conversations,

:30:13.:30:17.

Now, just time to remind you that Newsnight is on Saturday this week,

:30:18.:30:25.

and we're so excited we made a montage about it.

:30:26.:30:38.

It is on BBC Two tomorrow. Coming up next, the award-winning Scottish

:30:39.:30:46.

crime writer Val McDermid looks at the relationship between fiction,

:30:47.:30:50.

video

:30:51.:30:55.

Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS