Brexit Britain: One Month In - Newsnight Special Newsnight

It's 7am Friday 24th of June and the people of Britain have voted to

leave the European Union in an historic move that has stunned the

rest of the continent. They have decided that it is time to vote to

take back control. This is a dreadful day. It's one of the worst

days of my life to find my country leaving. What swayed it for you? I

don't know. I suddenly had a real, "Come on England." We are part of

Europe, continuing to interact with the peoples of other countries. Look

at my hand, we work for this country. You see it, yeah? In a way

that is open and friendly and outward looking. 3% is not a

majority. Let's do this again. One more time! The most precious thing

this country has given our continent is the idea of Parliamentary

democracy. I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the

captain that steers our country to its next destination. Shame on you

Boris! The young people in this country can look forward to a more

secure and more prosperous future. We couldn't have voted better, a lot

time country. At least we get our country back. You want to take your

troops from JP Morgan to the Paris, have a lovely holiday, because I'll

give you a clue guys, you'll be back. Vote for hope. You can't vote

for hope. There's no hope nowadays. We believe in a union not just

between the nations of the UK but between all of our citizens, every

one of us, whoever we are, and wherever we're from.

Hello. It's exactly a month since referendum day June 23, the day

everything changed. There's been so much to take in. On Newsnight we've

barely had time to cover it all. Today we're taking stock. We're at

the Royal Geographical Society in London live. We've teamed up with

the country's top brains and an audience of about 700 foolhardy

members of the public on this stiflingly warm evening and we're

trying to make sense of what has happened and what's next.

The conversation and the debate this afternoon has been both sparky and

sparkling. Everything on the future of scientific research, in a Brexit

world and what will happen to laws, such as the European arrest warrant

and cyber security. Now that Theresa May has raise today, the possible

issues of EU nationals already in UK remaining, and UK nationals in

Europe. We've been asking people for their hopes and fears.

MUSIC ... WILL CARRY US THROUGH TO better

times. Most people voted because they wanted to take back control

from the European Union and let our country govern itself again. That

offers a world of opportunity both in terms of our social policy, in

terms of our economic policy too. For me, my hopes and fears are

centred on my education. I was really looking to study languages in

perhaps France or Spain. I fear about, there will be less interest

in environmental concerns. I think my hopes for Brexit are that we

leave the EU as safe as we can, with minimal damage. There's been a lot

of talking all day here. Before we look ahead, we want to spend a few

minutes looking back at the referendum campaign itself. It was

easily one of the most memorable contests of our lifetime, a

surprisingly devicive and fraught affair. Both sides accused the other

of lying or exaggerating. Even though the public by all accounts

were sceptical of the claims made, they were engaged. I remember

someone involved on one side saying the turnout would be low, lucky if

it reached 60%. In the event it was over 70. At the end of it, one side

won, the other lost. Now it's important to know how and why Leave

did win in order to interpret the message the public were sending. Our

political editor has been talking to those at the heart of the campaigns

and has this, the inside story of why Leave prevailed.

If Boris Johnson looked surprised and a little shaken, hours after

vote leave's historic victory, that's because he was. Newsnight

understands that as voters went to the polls, Boris thought that his

campaign was probably headed for defeat. He had even drafted a series

of remarks in response to an expected narrow loss in the

referendum. So how did the Prime Minister end up on the losing side?

When David Cameron took a gamble by calling the referendum, Boris

Johnson had some sympathy for his view that it would be third time

lucky for the Prime Minister. He had won the Scottish and the general

election. Behind-the-scenes, though, on the Remain side, there was never

any complacency. Alarm bells started to ring for some shortly after the

general election last year, when the leaders of the main pro-EU group

were asked at a board meeting at this building here to name their ten

favourite things about the EU. There was silence around the table. For

the true believers, the benefits of the EU were simply beyond

description. Back in 2015, in April, we got our first research from the

populist, the pollsters throughout the campaign. It showed that people

knew all the negative arguments about the EU and couldn't name a

single positive about what the EU meant. The Remain camp soon found

they had to contend with a simple, but highly effective message from

their opponents. The genius moment came in August of last year, we were

in the office at Westminster tower over there, half of the office was a

building site at that point, the other half was working on trestle

tables and Dominic had the moment. He said, the message has to be -

vote leave, take control. That developed into vote leave, take back

control. We knew it was a message that would cut through. David

Cameron had been confident that the Tories' star player would be on his

side. But Boris Johnson alerted the Prime Minister of his plan to join

the Leave campaign shortly before his formal announcement Had it just

been me, we would have lost. It's simple. You have to have different

messengers. There's little doubt that the Boris voice, the Michael

Gove voice probably was very useful in parts of Surrey and places,

really in places like that, where perhaps naturally, Remain might have

had a bigger vote and where I wouldn't necessarily have appealed

to those people. Boris has extraordinary ability to attract

crowds, in a way which you wouldn't dare to stage manage. The first time

out and we were given two ice creams. This woman goes up to Boris

and says, oh, can I eat your ice-cream, please. There you go,

it's delicious. While the Leave campaign had a showbiz feel, the

Government had the international big guns. Barack Obama used a visit to

London to warn that the UK would, in a distinctly un-American phrase, be

at the back of the queue in securing a trade deal outside the EU. Shortly

after the Obama visit, the Leave campaigners gathered in Boris

Johnson's Westminster office to assess the state of play, over a

Chinese takeaway. We came under barrage, after barrage of artillery

fire from the IMF, from the OECD, from the Bank of England, Obama came

over late April. I remember having dinner with, I think, Boris,

Michael, Andrea and Priti and we had a discussion on what would happen. I

said I thought we would win because they'd fired all this stuff at us

and we were neck and neck. The Remain campaign thought they were on

strong ground, as they highlighted their opponents' claim about how

much money the UK sends to the EU. The ?350 million figure was

devastatingly effective. The last thing that we wanted to do was get

into an argument on television with the Leave campaign about whether the

real figure was 350 million or 170 million or 210 million because all

those numbers sound huge. The challenge was to find a number that

trumped it, as a number that captured the benefits of being in

for our economy and for people and therefore the risks of leaving. We

failed to do that. Every time they kept quibbling with us about it, we

made the positive case for control over our borders, control over our

money. It gave us another 24 hours talking about an issue that people

cared about and where we were on the right side of the debate. You're not

going to give that up. Nerves soon developed in the Remain campaign

over a Government claim about the economic impact of Brexit on the

average household. The problem with that figure, the ?4,300 figure,

firstly, it sounded implauzibly large to the ears of most people.

Secondly, it sounded strangely specific. The figure was phased out.

When we tested the reaction, people just rejected it. They didn't

believe. It The Remain camp also became aware that its core message

about the wider being nomic risks of exit meant nothing in deprived

areas, where concerns about immigration were to the fore. The

people who were very, very concerned about immigration, what they wanted

was purely and simply for the UK to be able to have total control of its

borders and total control of the flow of people into this country. We

didn't have an argument that could remotely compete with that. We

couldn't really engage in the campaign on that vital issue. We

didn't have much option but to keep pivot back to the economic risks.

With a month to go until polling day, the Remain campaign lost its

momentum when the Government machinery was obliged to grind to a

halt. This coincided with the release of official figures, which

showed that the Government had once again bust its net migration target.

Vote Leave had days of dream headlines. With the polls turning in

vote Leave's favour, I understand in mid-June a nervous David Cameron

discussed with aides in Number Ten a last throw of the dice to rescue his

campaign by reaching out to disgruntled voters on EU migration.

The Prime Minister telephoned the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, as

a first step towards persuading other EU leaders to issue a joint

statement. This would have said that a vote to remain in the EU would

finally trigger concessions on the highly controversial issue of free

movement of people. Nothing came of the idea. Merkel was later to tell

David Cameron there could be no compromise on free movement, while

Number Ten concluded that such a dramatic move would be portrayed by

the Leave side as a sign of weakness. But a week before polling

day, the campaign came to an unexpected halt, when news came

through of the murder of the Labour MP, Jo Cox, hours after Ukip had

unveiled a highly controversial poster. I don't think that poster

would have been a big news event over that weekend, had it not been

for the timing of it and the circumstances of that death. After

all, that particular picture was all over the front pages of our

newspapers last year. I'm very sorry for the timing of the poster. I'm

sorry for the way in which it was used. I'm not sorry for showing the

truth. But perhaps unwittingly, it did, in the end, get the debate

back, for the last few days, onto the one thing that people out there

really, really care about. The official vote Leave campaign were

appalled by the poster. I was actually in the middle of a debate

at York University when all a sudden, I was getting text messages

through on my phone about Joe Cox's murder. When I got the news through

that he shouted "Britain first" I thought it could be the end of the

campaign. The mixture of Joe Cox's death plus the unveiling of the very

controversial Ukip poster - breaking point - I thought could tip us over

the edge. The two sides briefly suspended their campaigns, after the

death of Jo Cox. But hostilities resumed in time for the final

television show down days before the vote.

For me, it was really clear during the preparation sessions for the TV

debates, I was playing the role of Andrea Leadsom. What was clear they

had one simple phrase and they just kept repeating it and it allowed

them to have an answer to anybody's concerns over anything, whether you

fear for your job, whether you don't like the Government, whether you

have concerns over pressures on public services, vote leave, take

back control. Really simple. The Remain side also believed that

Jeremy Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support undermined

their campaign. It was a nightmare to have less than enthusiastic

support from the leader of the Labour Party. The Labour Party made

up the bulk of the correct voters. It was absolutely crucial to get our

message to them. What we were frustrated by was how hard it was to

engage with Jeremy Corbyn's office, how difficult it was to get

meetings. The Leave side triumphed after David Cameron lost his gamble.

In the end, the desire to win back control over relegation trumped

fears over economic uncertainty and unnerved Boris Johnson to say that

the UK might be leaving the EU didn't it would always embrace

Europe. Well, I dare say, huge tracts will

be, and on that campaign. Here with us now, the former Deputy Prime

Minister Nick Clegg, Labour MP Stella Creasy and Conservative and

Leave campaigner... I just wonder whether you think the immigration

issue in the end was what won it? I think it was a mixture of things.

Certainly I experienced this in Sheffield and South Yorkshire, where

I was campaigning - a lot of people who were asked, do you like the

status quo? I said, I don't. There was a lot of issues, immigration,

poor housing, social care for elderly relatives. It was a simple,

do you like the way things are? And a lot of people said no. That and

many other reasons lie behind the big vote to leave. Should they not

have thought what the answer, had a line, which might work? My own view

is, some declaration which the Brexit camp would have been able to

shoot holes in within minutes, from the European leaders, press-ganged

at the last minute, would not have worked. My own view was that the

Remain camp should have been much, much more aggressive at challenging

the Brexit campaign about what on earth they mean. Because the

immigration story went unchallenged. Just this week we have had the Prime

Minister of Ireland saying very clearly, there will not be hard

controls on our border with the EU. So how on earth are we supposed to

take back control if we are not going to reintroduce controls at the

new border with the EU? All of that was left unchallenged because Remain

camp did not want to take on the issue of immigration. I think they

could have done that with more aggression and self confidence than

they did. What did you think of Jeremy Corbyn's role, was he part of

the reason why Remain did not win? I have to say on that, on a personal

level, it hurts. It hurts to see that actually something we decided

as a political movement, something we felt strongly enough for it to be

official policy, not getting the backing of the leader. That does not

mean that Jeremy personally could have got every single Labour voter

to vote Remain. We have to recognise that lots of people who normally

vote Labour did vote to leave. But it is about the contract that you

make as a political movement. Once you agree something as party policy,

you put your heart and soul into it. I went around the country, many

others worked very hard to try to get a Remain vote, to try to counter

some of those arguments, to recognise that we have a country

which is so very divided now reading how we were going to take it

forward. And it felt like Jeremy pulled himself out of that process.

And on a personal level, that hurt. Something so fundamental, not forget

that heart and soul from your leader is devastating. Let's not talk too

much about the campaign. Let's talk about what the voters were saying.

Nick, you gave an account, it was a vote against the status quo.

Stellar, I think you're saying almost the same thing. As a Leaver,

what do you think the voters were saying, was it a bigger protest of

some kind? I think what nick said is true. There is a lot of truth in

saying that there were a number of issues, not just one reason. But we

cannot gloss over the fact that the whole issue of EU membership was

exactly what it said it was. People knew they were going to have to

vote, that if we voted to stay in, we would not revisit this question

for 25 years. They felt it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote. I felt they

were very clear eyed about whether they wanted to stay in, certainly in

my constituency, which voted 60-40 out. They made a rational choice,

and they said, we want to leave. We want out. What do you read into

that? Was it immigration? Was it, take back control and what you might

call sovereignty, that sense of empowerment you might get by being

able to kick out your politicians? The two biggest issues were clearly

immigration, and also this broader, more abstract sense of sovereignty.

We can have a philosophical argument about what sovereignty is. But

certainly in my constituency, people felt that by leaving the EU, they

were leaving some sense of... What were the figures? I have seen some

polling data. I suspect that about 70% were one of those two issues.

Those were by far the biggest issues. Do you agree with that, that

those two issues Blade Babe part 18 or do you think you cannot reduce it

to anyone of them? I will tell you what I do think it emerged during

the course of the campaign. As your film suggested, the emotional appeal

of the Brexit campaign was strong. I heard it myself, people saying, I'm

going to take a control, vote no. It was a wonderfully pithy, emotive

appeal. Generally I have discovered in politics, people vote with their

heads. The barrage of statistics from the Treasury, saying that in 30

years' time your household finances may be worth of this or that, just

could not compete. I have to say, I felt a very pivotal moment was when

George Osborne, I think in a spectacularly misjudged initiative,

basically announced about a week or so before the referendum, that if

people did not do what he told them to do, he would whack up their taxes

or cut their public services. I almost felt like voting out at that

point X Commission think the appeal to people is hearts was much

stronger. It is easy for me to say this, but I sometimes wish a bit of

poetry could have been mixed in with the pros of the Remain campaign. It

is interesting to see whether the public thought this was a vote on

immigration, stellar. Was it the core issue, or was it sovereignty?

And does it matter? I don't think we can get away with this. One of the

moments which really broke my heart, in my community, Walthamstow has

always been proud of its diversity, and I watched a Somali woman

racially abusing a Hungarian woman, shouting at her that her daughter

could not get a job so she should go back to the country where she came

from. I knew then that the divisive rhetoric of the Leave campaign had

ramifications far beyond the vote around Brexit. Absolutely, what they

tapped into is a divide in this country between the people who feel

they have a place in our future and to know how they are going to make

it, and those who don't feel they have a part in our future. That is

the challenge for all of us to deal with. That was not the case in my

constituency. You are saying more than 50% of people feel they have no

stake in the future. I am saying people felt they had nothing left to

lose. There is a narrative building up about Labour voters. 58% of Tory

voters, not members, voters, in the country, voted out. And that was a

huge chunk of the Leave vote. And a lot of these people are not people

who feel they have no stake, or have nothing to lose. They are people who

made a rational choice about the future of this country. People must

think that politics works for them, that is the question. We have got it

changes coming up in front of us, and now some really difficult

choices, do they feel the political process engages with them or not?

That is the challenge for all of us. Actually, in the course of the

campaign, I did an event in your father's constituency, and I think

he was in the audience. And these were not people, I think it is in

Buckinghamshire, where he lives, nick and these were people who

overwhelmingly voting to leave the EU. And they were people who had...

Not my dad! There is no-one explanation. Always portrayed as

people who had no stake. We have had a lot of discussion today. And it is

not the case. It is not the whole story. A lot of towns which had

great industries and lost them did vote to leave. Let's talk about

where we go from here. It appears that where we are is in making a

choice between a Brexit light and a hard Brexit. Between staying in the

single market or not. Or saying, immigration is what it is all about,

you have got to give up on the single market to control

immigration. Where are you on that? My fundamental red line is a control

on free movement, some concession. I was speaking earlier, when I decided

to go for Brexit, I was always euro skip it, I was not like Daniel

Hannan or some of the more forceful Eurostat X, for when the Prime

Minister, David Cameron, failed to get any concession whatsoever on the

freedom of movement, that was the moment I think in February that I

decided to Vote Leave. That was fundamental. Stellar, where are you

on that trade-off? I think there is a conversation about what we mean by

freedom of movement of labour, and how you define the skills and

abilities which people bring two countries. But fundamentally, access

to the single market is massive to our economy. It is not popular to

talk about the City, but that's 30% of our tax receipts. We have got to

make some hard-headed choices. Those people we were talking about are

people who were left behind well before this happened. The truth

about how we get them good skills, good jobs, investment in those

communities, has to be at the heart of any decision. So, Brexit light,

basically. What about nick, what is your view? Quasi-'s new party leader

has said what she wants. She said in Paris and in Berlin, very clearly,

she said, the United Kingdom will now seek, and I quote, the closest

possible economic relationship with the European Union. The closest

possible economic relationship with the European Union, that we have at

present. In other words... And you are happy with that? Yes, I am,

because at the end of the day, we at talking about people's lives and

jobs and ability to pay their bills will stop I think we are talking

about something akin to, maybe even better than, what Norway has got.

There has been a lot of discussion about the trade-off between the

single market and freedom of movement. The thing the Government

needs to decide, when they finally put us all out of our misery and

tell us what their plan is, they have got to be upfront about this -

if you want to have unlimited or extensive access to the single

market, can only do so by abiding by the rules and the rulings of the

single market. I would call that a loss of sovereignty. But there is no

way around that. If you want to trade into the single market, you

have to abide by the rules of it. That is something this government

will have to come clean with us on at some point. I want to get the

views of the audience. They have been with us during the day. It was

a first-come, first-served event, not like a usual BBC audience which

has been constructed to be in some way balanced. And we know from the

rest of the day, it is overwhelmingly Remain, in this west

London venue. LAUGHTER. What I wanted to ask the audience, there

was a splendid piece by Matthew Parris in the Times newspaper today,

talking about Remainer grief, and we have had a fair bit of that in the

room today. He was saying, you have to accept the result. What I wanted

to ask the audience was, whether you accept the result, is it time to

make the best of Brexit, or is it time to fight and see if you can get

the referendum reversed? How many of you in the audience would say it is

time to accept the result and make the best of Brexit? And how many of

you would say, fight and see if you can get the thing reversed? I would

say 60-40, in favour of Remain. How many people here actually think they

know what Brexit will be?! APPLAUSE. Let me just ask, Stella Creasy, do

you think we should have a second referendum, when we know what Brexit

means? I think, yes, we have to accept the fact that that is the

result. We have to deal with the result, all of us, whether we were

for it or against it. But it is the small print and the detail. There

are big choices. If we don't have access to the single market, that's

30% of our tax receipts. If we're going to change freedom of

movement... It is not 30%. The City of London... How do you know? These

people now deserve the detail. I want to get a couple of views from

the floor. I know we have got a group around a microphone over

there. What is your view on the second referendum issue, or some way

of getting back? I was one of the more than 4 million people who

petitioned for a second referendum. I was hoping that the majority would

now accept the importance of staying in the EU, which I think is so vital

for the future of Britain, in so many aspects, including my own

personal interest in the future of medical research and the British

university system where I work. Howard, where are you? I think we

know which side you are coming from, from your T-shirt. I am a Democrat

so the government is governing with the consent of the population. The

referendum gave the population the opportunity to say that they do not

like the consensus the way it is at the moment. If Parliament decides

that we have a proposal for how to change, it may be that the

electorate should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their

consent or... You are slightly untypical, I think. You are

thinking, even as a Leaver you might want to put the consent back at the

end of it. I am very well aware that Parliament is 75% Remain, so...

I wouldn't endorse a second referendum. But there seems to be a

confidence almost an arrogance on the part of the Remain team that if

there were a second referendum they would get the result that they

wanted. If they didn't do that, then I mean, they would have leave the

pitch and abide by the result. My suspicion going round my

constituency, is that the Leave vote has hardened and people are appalled

by the condescension that many Remainers that's not Nick. Or my

dad. Yes, your dad. Thank you all very much. Can we thank the panel,

please. Thank you very much. APPLAUSE

Well, it is all very well discussing this here, but what's it like in the

north of England and the Midlands, where many voted to leave and many

of those who voted to leave were Labour voters. We've been travelling

from the industrial city of Manchester to the holiday town of

Blackpool. One month on from Brexit, what did

the vote reveal about Britain? Our new Prime Minister talked about one

nation, but are we? Even in Manchester, where 60% voted to

remain, there are divisions. You've got all sorts of famous clients.

Yeah, Lady GaGa, Tess Daly, Cheryl Cole, Amanda Holden. Turkish-born

designer voted to leave. Her design team was split. Have you experienced

a feeling that because you voted out, people are judging in some way?

Of course, yeah. Yeah. In what way? It's all over Facebook, every time

anyone would comment something, within our generation, I felt like

it's embarrassing to say that you voted out. Because people would be

like, oh, my God, I can't believe you've done this. It feels like

we're divided at the moment, do you think we can heal? I think it all

depends on the Brexit strategy and what happens now. And whether we can

meet a mutual agreement that's going to work for everyone. The referendum

revealed fault lines in the country, class, age and geographical divides.

This is a city that voted in and yet we're going out. Yeah. People are

worried, are they? Because I think, the politicians they didn't explain

very well to the people what's the effect will be after the elections.

One of the truths universally acknowledged during the campaign is

that students mainly voted in. There's a bar down here that does

student discounts. How did you vote? Remain. Remain. Also remain. Do you

feel part of a metropolitan elite if you voted Remain, is that how you

see yourself? The idea of 48% of the population being an elite and 66% of

Scotland being an elite is ridiculous. The great majority of

people who voted out, voted out because they felt they had no

control. There's no other way to say what they wanted to say. Have you

felt anger, upset, dismay? Dismissing who voted in a different

way from you as racist or uneducated is essentially the wrong way to go.

In the long run, it's going to do far more damage to the country than

Brexit ever could. Manchester and Liverpool are exceptional.

Everywhere else round here voted out. I'm leaving Manchester now. Off

to visit some other parts of the North West.

In Tory voting Ribble Valley 56% voted leave. We've just Intercepted

you, John. You have. Where are you off to? For my paper. John used to

run the village shop. He voted to Remain. And how do you feel about

the result? Well, we've got used to it, haven't we? Inside the shop,

Barry White was about to be outshone. I'm told that you're a

good singer, have you got any songs? # So if it's raining

# I've no regrets # It's not rain, rain you know - bit

of A already Jolson that. Do you think it is raining because of the

referendum or are you happy with the way we've gone? I'm happy with it. I

am. We'll all stick together. If we all stick together and make a better

future. These parts are known as the milk fields of Lancashire. Outside

the local cheesemakers, I found a family divided. Mum voted in, her

daughters were split. You're scared about what the vote will mean for

Britain? I am, really, yeah. But as I say, I think Theresa May, of

anybody, will possibly pull us through this. We were all so aghast,

especially me and my friends. We were very upset I think and quite

angry towards maybe the older generation. When I was speaking to

Faye a few days after, it was more of a "Are you happy that this has

happened? " How did you feel, what did you say? All my fault then! It's

all my fault that one decision. You don't get more British than the

seaside at Lytham St Annes. At the local tea shop, I came across Hilda

and Malcom, both Out voters. Have you picked up a sort of sense, I

don't know, a bad feeling between the people who voted out and the

people who voted in? I think some people are really biassed and

bigoted and can't always look for the other person's point of view,

which is sad really, because we're all the same under the skin. We all

have our own view points. And hopefully, we can all learn to live

in peace together. What do you say to young people who say - you

shouldn't have been allowed a vote because you're not going to be

around to live with the consequences? I'd say, a vote's a

vote for everybody. Leave it at that.

I'm ending my trip in Blackpool, with its darker underbelly behind

the promise of bright lights. 68% of people voted out in Labour

Blackpool, the highest figure in the North West. At Amazing Greys, a soup

kitchen, they offer 15,000 meals a year. Tell me why you think out was

the right vote? Erm...... Because I think it will bring a lot more jobs

back to Blackpool. You think as a result of the vote, things will get

better for people like you here? Yeah. All the jobs are being taken

before the season even starts. Is that by people who aren't from

Blackpool, you think? There's a lot of people moving into Blackpool all

the time, because they think it's like London, bright lights, big

city. It's not. We've got a new Prime Minister. She's talking about

one nation, she's appealing to people like you saying, I'm going to

think about you, when I make a decision. A lot of people don't like

her, but I think she might be pretty good actually. In this journey

across the North West, I've lost count of the number of times people

have said to me from either side of the debate that they voted with the

future in mind. In a sense, that's the thing that unites us. But it's

also something that could divide us, if the future doesn't pan out the

way each of us hopes. I'm joined now by a leading

Brexiteer, Daniel Hannon, one of the men who led the charge for Out. And

the writer and commentator Paul Mason. What we've been hearing and

Katie explored that in her film, is the number of divisions and splits,

within families, old and young, across the country, Scottish,

English, so forth. That's a lot to heal and you've got the troubles on

the left. We're not going to heal some of these divisions. The number

one unhealable division is Scotland. If I were Scottish I would vote to

leave the United Kingdom and remain in the EU. We overemphasise the

generational thing. Something that I lament is a view that common in a

place like London, is that all of this was caused by ignorance,

xenophobia etc. We cannot describe 52% of the population like that.

Even the most visceral and voting with your heart Leavism was often

very well informed. My side lost. We have to accept it. And then, we will

unite around what is the proposal. What is the proposal we're able to

get from Europe, what's the maximum amount of engagement with the single

market we can get. That is the problem, a month on, nature abhors a

vacuum, but we are no clear what that proposal may be. There may be

bright, young civil servants trying to work that out. Can you not tell

the people in here what Brexit actually looks like, because there

is no prospeck Tuesday. Before the -- prospectus. Before the campaign

we produced a million-page study on what we would like to do. The

reality is it was a close vote. We don't have a mandate to roll over

48%. That's as big a minority as you can have. You correctly say the UK

is a partner of nations. Two of the four countries voted to remain in.

We can't disregard that. The narrowness of the mandate will exert

a measure of moderation, because we need to try and find a consensus

that both sides can live with, even if without great enthusiasm. One of

the big issues of course, is that you believe passionately that

immigration wasn't an issue. Clearly your new Prime Minister does,

because the thing that she said that nobody else had said was that the

position of EU nationals in this country may be an issue and so

therefore, that is now on the table. I didn't say immigration wasn't an

issue. That is a division that may exist. People are concerned,

families, friends. The BBC did its own poll about this. 21% of Leave

voters expect a very drastic fall in numbers of EU migrants after Brexit.

11% of all voters. This was not "the" top issue. People wanted

control so that we're in charge of roughly who comes out and roughly in

what numbers. That doesn't mean zero immigration. For very bright people

in here, the word roughly is a nightmare. Because what does

"roughly" mean. You either have free movement of people or you don't.

Paul, immigration was very much an issue in the north-east of England,

Labour didn't get that one right. You may cede lots of votes to Ukip

in the future because of that. What are you going to do about the issue

of free movement? It's not a bit of it, it's either free movement or

not? That's not true. What I would do and I'm strongly pushing this, is

that we apply to be in the European Economic Area, to remain in the

single market, and we say, because in it you can have an emergency

brake on free movement. That's only a temporary variance. We say we'll

address with microeconomic policies the things that people are worried

about, give us time to do itment the challenge has to be to everybody in

politics - what is wrong with that? Tell us what you think is wrong with

that, since you all claim to be pro-migration, not anti-may grags,

not racist -- antimigration, not racist, what is wrong with seeking

temporary breathing space to get the consent for migration back. In terms

of healing divides then, you said it was a very narrow vote. It was a

vote to lever, but a narrow -- to leave, but a narrow vote. What do

you think about that model, the Norway model? Is that something that

is seriously being considered or not? First point, we're not going to

copy any other country. Throughout the campaign people kept saying are

you going to be like Norway, like Canada? The fact you put the

question like that, shows that none of those countries has an identical

model. Hang on, you haven't, nobody yet has come up with a model. What

every country in Europe has in common, all of the non-EU countries,

whether it's mass done ya, Isle of Man, all of them -- Macedonia, they

all have access to the EU market without political union. We know the

parameters within which these talks are going to happen. We want market

access. . We want democratic control. There is going to be some

free movement under this Conservative Government? No. Which

is going to deal with Conservative MPs who are very concerned about

this? We made one absolutely clear promise, we would take back control

of immigration policy. That can mean only one thing, it means that no

European Court will get to determine who can enter the UK or who can

reside in the UK. Having taken back control, it will be for the people

and their Parliamentarians to decide whether to have bilateral deals,

whether to allow people to study, take up particular job offers. That

will be for us to decide through our own democratic institutions. Paul,

when I talk about nature abhors a vacuum, revised growth figures 1. 7

next year, 1. 3, there may be a downturn that harms the very people

who voted to lever. If there's an economic downturn it harms

everybody. What I am worried about is that racist populism is out of

the bottle. Whatever Nigel Farage says now he regrets using that

image, we saw him earlier say that, racist populism is there in pubs, in

clubs. If the economy now goes down the tubes, I never bought the whole

Bank of England, treasurery kind of thing, I said this publicly, but it

may happen and what we have to do now is work together, not only to

reassure those EU migrants, but a big backlash against Muslims

happened on the street after this, who had nothing to do with EU

membership. We have to work to prevent this racist populism getting

further out of the bottle. APPLAUSE. Just a quick word on that

- on the question of arginine with EU nationals that are here already,

is that a go or not? Personally, I made it clear all the way through

that we should not put that in jeopardy. I think it is terribly

unfair to all of the British Muslims who voted Leave, to suggest that

they are lumped in with all of these racists. They were making a rational

decision. When people here were asked, what will Brexit be? Brexit

is there. Do you believe that you should put the Brexit plan to the

people? Brexit means that we end the jurisdiction of EU courts over...

They say there is not won at the moment, and there is not a model.

There is not a plan. The question is, how much they can we implement

if we want to carry the Remainers who have not accepted the result, as

we saw earlier. And we want to try and bring with us as many as

possible of that 48%, then we may have to stop short of a complete

severance, and retain many of our political, economic and diplomatic

connections with Europe, for the sake -- for the sake of keeping the

union together. Over to Evan Davis. That is actually about it for this

evening. The temperature in here tells us we are getting into the

deep summer. Journalists call it the silly season. Maybe you think it has

all been a bit mad over the non-silly season. Some of us are

yearning for a period in which biggest story is a cat stuck up a

tree. We will continue to scrutinise what happens over the next few

months. Let me thank the Royal Geographical Society for hosting us

come and also Intelligence Squared, for helping us to organise it. And

above all, to our audience. To finish, we thought we would leave

you with a short tribute to one of those careers ended, for now, since

Brexit. So it is good night from us, and it is good night from them. I

love this country and I feel honoured to have served it.

# Bye-bye, love # Bye-bye, happiness

# Hello, loneliness... That is not the outcome that I threw everything

into campaigning for. No regrets. Mr Corbyn, how can you survive?

# There goes my baby... Stepping aside. Resigned. Resigning today.

# Bye-bye, sweet caress... What I am saying today is, I want my life

back. And it begins right now. Thank you.

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