Brexit Britain: One Month In - Newsnight Special Newsnight


Brexit Britain: One Month In - Newsnight Special

A Newsnight special discussing Brexit Britain, one month after the EU referendum. Presented by Evan Davis.


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Transcript


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It's 7am Friday 24th of June and the people of Britain have voted to

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leave the European Union in an historic move that has stunned the

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rest of the continent. They have decided that it is time to vote to

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take back control. This is a dreadful day. It's one of the worst

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days of my life to find my country leaving. What swayed it for you? I

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don't know. I suddenly had a real, "Come on England." We are part of

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Europe, continuing to interact with the peoples of other countries. Look

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at my hand, we work for this country. You see it, yeah? In a way

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that is open and friendly and outward looking. 3% is not a

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majority. Let's do this again. One more time! The most precious thing

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this country has given our continent is the idea of Parliamentary

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democracy. I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the

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captain that steers our country to its next destination. Shame on you

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Boris! The young people in this country can look forward to a more

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secure and more prosperous future. We couldn't have voted better, a lot

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time country. At least we get our country back. You want to take your

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troops from JP Morgan to the Paris, have a lovely holiday, because I'll

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give you a clue guys, you'll be back. Vote for hope. You can't vote

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for hope. There's no hope nowadays. We believe in a union not just

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between the nations of the UK but between all of our citizens, every

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one of us, whoever we are, and wherever we're from.

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Hello. It's exactly a month since referendum day June 23, the day

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everything changed. There's been so much to take in. On Newsnight we've

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barely had time to cover it all. Today we're taking stock. We're at

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the Royal Geographical Society in London live. We've teamed up with

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the country's top brains and an audience of about 700 foolhardy

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members of the public on this stiflingly warm evening and we're

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trying to make sense of what has happened and what's next.

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The conversation and the debate this afternoon has been both sparky and

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sparkling. Everything on the future of scientific research, in a Brexit

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world and what will happen to laws, such as the European arrest warrant

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and cyber security. Now that Theresa May has raise today, the possible

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issues of EU nationals already in UK remaining, and UK nationals in

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Europe. We've been asking people for their hopes and fears.

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MUSIC ... WILL CARRY US THROUGH TO better

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times. Most people voted because they wanted to take back control

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from the European Union and let our country govern itself again. That

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offers a world of opportunity both in terms of our social policy, in

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terms of our economic policy too. For me, my hopes and fears are

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centred on my education. I was really looking to study languages in

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perhaps France or Spain. I fear about, there will be less interest

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in environmental concerns. I think my hopes for Brexit are that we

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leave the EU as safe as we can, with minimal damage. There's been a lot

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of talking all day here. Before we look ahead, we want to spend a few

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minutes looking back at the referendum campaign itself. It was

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easily one of the most memorable contests of our lifetime, a

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surprisingly devicive and fraught affair. Both sides accused the other

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of lying or exaggerating. Even though the public by all accounts

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were sceptical of the claims made, they were engaged. I remember

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someone involved on one side saying the turnout would be low, lucky if

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it reached 60%. In the event it was over 70. At the end of it, one side

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won, the other lost. Now it's important to know how and why Leave

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did win in order to interpret the message the public were sending. Our

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political editor has been talking to those at the heart of the campaigns

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and has this, the inside story of why Leave prevailed.

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If Boris Johnson looked surprised and a little shaken, hours after

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vote leave's historic victory, that's because he was. Newsnight

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understands that as voters went to the polls, Boris thought that his

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campaign was probably headed for defeat. He had even drafted a series

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of remarks in response to an expected narrow loss in the

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referendum. So how did the Prime Minister end up on the losing side?

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When David Cameron took a gamble by calling the referendum, Boris

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Johnson had some sympathy for his view that it would be third time

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lucky for the Prime Minister. He had won the Scottish and the general

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election. Behind-the-scenes, though, on the Remain side, there was never

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any complacency. Alarm bells started to ring for some shortly after the

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general election last year, when the leaders of the main pro-EU group

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were asked at a board meeting at this building here to name their ten

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favourite things about the EU. There was silence around the table. For

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the true believers, the benefits of the EU were simply beyond

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description. Back in 2015, in April, we got our first research from the

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populist, the pollsters throughout the campaign. It showed that people

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knew all the negative arguments about the EU and couldn't name a

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single positive about what the EU meant. The Remain camp soon found

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they had to contend with a simple, but highly effective message from

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their opponents. The genius moment came in August of last year, we were

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in the office at Westminster tower over there, half of the office was a

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building site at that point, the other half was working on trestle

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tables and Dominic had the moment. He said, the message has to be -

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vote leave, take control. That developed into vote leave, take back

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control. We knew it was a message that would cut through. David

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Cameron had been confident that the Tories' star player would be on his

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side. But Boris Johnson alerted the Prime Minister of his plan to join

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the Leave campaign shortly before his formal announcement Had it just

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been me, we would have lost. It's simple. You have to have different

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messengers. There's little doubt that the Boris voice, the Michael

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Gove voice probably was very useful in parts of Surrey and places,

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really in places like that, where perhaps naturally, Remain might have

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had a bigger vote and where I wouldn't necessarily have appealed

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to those people. Boris has extraordinary ability to attract

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crowds, in a way which you wouldn't dare to stage manage. The first time

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out and we were given two ice creams. This woman goes up to Boris

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and says, oh, can I eat your ice-cream, please. There you go,

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it's delicious. While the Leave campaign had a showbiz feel, the

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Government had the international big guns. Barack Obama used a visit to

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London to warn that the UK would, in a distinctly un-American phrase, be

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at the back of the queue in securing a trade deal outside the EU. Shortly

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after the Obama visit, the Leave campaigners gathered in Boris

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Johnson's Westminster office to assess the state of play, over a

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Chinese takeaway. We came under barrage, after barrage of artillery

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fire from the IMF, from the OECD, from the Bank of England, Obama came

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over late April. I remember having dinner with, I think, Boris,

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Michael, Andrea and Priti and we had a discussion on what would happen. I

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said I thought we would win because they'd fired all this stuff at us

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and we were neck and neck. The Remain campaign thought they were on

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strong ground, as they highlighted their opponents' claim about how

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much money the UK sends to the EU. The ?350 million figure was

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devastatingly effective. The last thing that we wanted to do was get

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into an argument on television with the Leave campaign about whether the

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real figure was 350 million or 170 million or 210 million because all

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those numbers sound huge. The challenge was to find a number that

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trumped it, as a number that captured the benefits of being in

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for our economy and for people and therefore the risks of leaving. We

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failed to do that. Every time they kept quibbling with us about it, we

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made the positive case for control over our borders, control over our

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money. It gave us another 24 hours talking about an issue that people

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cared about and where we were on the right side of the debate. You're not

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going to give that up. Nerves soon developed in the Remain campaign

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over a Government claim about the economic impact of Brexit on the

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average household. The problem with that figure, the ?4,300 figure,

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firstly, it sounded implauzibly large to the ears of most people.

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Secondly, it sounded strangely specific. The figure was phased out.

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When we tested the reaction, people just rejected it. They didn't

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believe. It The Remain camp also became aware that its core message

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about the wider being nomic risks of exit meant nothing in deprived

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areas, where concerns about immigration were to the fore. The

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people who were very, very concerned about immigration, what they wanted

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was purely and simply for the UK to be able to have total control of its

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borders and total control of the flow of people into this country. We

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didn't have an argument that could remotely compete with that. We

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couldn't really engage in the campaign on that vital issue. We

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didn't have much option but to keep pivot back to the economic risks.

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With a month to go until polling day, the Remain campaign lost its

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momentum when the Government machinery was obliged to grind to a

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halt. This coincided with the release of official figures, which

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showed that the Government had once again bust its net migration target.

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Vote Leave had days of dream headlines. With the polls turning in

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vote Leave's favour, I understand in mid-June a nervous David Cameron

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discussed with aides in Number Ten a last throw of the dice to rescue his

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campaign by reaching out to disgruntled voters on EU migration.

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The Prime Minister telephoned the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, as

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a first step towards persuading other EU leaders to issue a joint

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statement. This would have said that a vote to remain in the EU would

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finally trigger concessions on the highly controversial issue of free

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movement of people. Nothing came of the idea. Merkel was later to tell

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David Cameron there could be no compromise on free movement, while

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Number Ten concluded that such a dramatic move would be portrayed by

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the Leave side as a sign of weakness. But a week before polling

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day, the campaign came to an unexpected halt, when news came

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through of the murder of the Labour MP, Jo Cox, hours after Ukip had

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unveiled a highly controversial poster. I don't think that poster

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would have been a big news event over that weekend, had it not been

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for the timing of it and the circumstances of that death. After

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all, that particular picture was all over the front pages of our

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newspapers last year. I'm very sorry for the timing of the poster. I'm

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sorry for the way in which it was used. I'm not sorry for showing the

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truth. But perhaps unwittingly, it did, in the end, get the debate

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back, for the last few days, onto the one thing that people out there

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really, really care about. The official vote Leave campaign were

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appalled by the poster. I was actually in the middle of a debate

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at York University when all a sudden, I was getting text messages

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through on my phone about Joe Cox's murder. When I got the news through

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that he shouted "Britain first" I thought it could be the end of the

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campaign. The mixture of Joe Cox's death plus the unveiling of the very

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controversial Ukip poster - breaking point - I thought could tip us over

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the edge. The two sides briefly suspended their campaigns, after the

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death of Jo Cox. But hostilities resumed in time for the final

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television show down days before the vote.

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For me, it was really clear during the preparation sessions for the TV

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debates, I was playing the role of Andrea Leadsom. What was clear they

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had one simple phrase and they just kept repeating it and it allowed

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them to have an answer to anybody's concerns over anything, whether you

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fear for your job, whether you don't like the Government, whether you

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have concerns over pressures on public services, vote leave, take

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back control. Really simple. The Remain side also believed that

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Jeremy Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support undermined

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their campaign. It was a nightmare to have less than enthusiastic

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support from the leader of the Labour Party. The Labour Party made

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up the bulk of the correct voters. It was absolutely crucial to get our

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message to them. What we were frustrated by was how hard it was to

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engage with Jeremy Corbyn's office, how difficult it was to get

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meetings. The Leave side triumphed after David Cameron lost his gamble.

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In the end, the desire to win back control over relegation trumped

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fears over economic uncertainty and unnerved Boris Johnson to say that

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the UK might be leaving the EU didn't it would always embrace

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Europe. Well, I dare say, huge tracts will

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be, and on that campaign. Here with us now, the former Deputy Prime

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Minister Nick Clegg, Labour MP Stella Creasy and Conservative and

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Leave campaigner... I just wonder whether you think the immigration

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issue in the end was what won it? I think it was a mixture of things.

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Certainly I experienced this in Sheffield and South Yorkshire, where

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I was campaigning - a lot of people who were asked, do you like the

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status quo? I said, I don't. There was a lot of issues, immigration,

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poor housing, social care for elderly relatives. It was a simple,

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do you like the way things are? And a lot of people said no. That and

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many other reasons lie behind the big vote to leave. Should they not

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have thought what the answer, had a line, which might work? My own view

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is, some declaration which the Brexit camp would have been able to

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shoot holes in within minutes, from the European leaders, press-ganged

:17:06.:17:07.

at the last minute, would not have worked. My own view was that the

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Remain camp should have been much, much more aggressive at challenging

:17:13.:17:16.

the Brexit campaign about what on earth they mean. Because the

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immigration story went unchallenged. Just this week we have had the Prime

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Minister of Ireland saying very clearly, there will not be hard

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controls on our border with the EU. So how on earth are we supposed to

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take back control if we are not going to reintroduce controls at the

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new border with the EU? All of that was left unchallenged because Remain

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camp did not want to take on the issue of immigration. I think they

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could have done that with more aggression and self confidence than

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they did. What did you think of Jeremy Corbyn's role, was he part of

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the reason why Remain did not win? I have to say on that, on a personal

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level, it hurts. It hurts to see that actually something we decided

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as a political movement, something we felt strongly enough for it to be

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official policy, not getting the backing of the leader. That does not

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mean that Jeremy personally could have got every single Labour voter

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to vote Remain. We have to recognise that lots of people who normally

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vote Labour did vote to leave. But it is about the contract that you

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make as a political movement. Once you agree something as party policy,

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you put your heart and soul into it. I went around the country, many

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others worked very hard to try to get a Remain vote, to try to counter

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some of those arguments, to recognise that we have a country

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which is so very divided now reading how we were going to take it

:18:45.:18:48.

forward. And it felt like Jeremy pulled himself out of that process.

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And on a personal level, that hurt. Something so fundamental, not forget

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that heart and soul from your leader is devastating. Let's not talk too

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much about the campaign. Let's talk about what the voters were saying.

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Nick, you gave an account, it was a vote against the status quo.

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Stellar, I think you're saying almost the same thing. As a Leaver,

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what do you think the voters were saying, was it a bigger protest of

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some kind? I think what nick said is true. There is a lot of truth in

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saying that there were a number of issues, not just one reason. But we

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cannot gloss over the fact that the whole issue of EU membership was

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exactly what it said it was. People knew they were going to have to

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vote, that if we voted to stay in, we would not revisit this question

:19:41.:19:44.

for 25 years. They felt it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote. I felt they

:19:45.:19:48.

were very clear eyed about whether they wanted to stay in, certainly in

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my constituency, which voted 60-40 out. They made a rational choice,

:19:54.:19:57.

and they said, we want to leave. We want out. What do you read into

:19:58.:20:03.

that? Was it immigration? Was it, take back control and what you might

:20:04.:20:08.

call sovereignty, that sense of empowerment you might get by being

:20:09.:20:11.

able to kick out your politicians? The two biggest issues were clearly

:20:12.:20:16.

immigration, and also this broader, more abstract sense of sovereignty.

:20:17.:20:20.

We can have a philosophical argument about what sovereignty is. But

:20:21.:20:25.

certainly in my constituency, people felt that by leaving the EU, they

:20:26.:20:29.

were leaving some sense of... What were the figures? I have seen some

:20:30.:20:36.

polling data. I suspect that about 70% were one of those two issues.

:20:37.:20:41.

Those were by far the biggest issues. Do you agree with that, that

:20:42.:20:47.

those two issues Blade Babe part 18 or do you think you cannot reduce it

:20:48.:20:51.

to anyone of them? I will tell you what I do think it emerged during

:20:52.:20:54.

the course of the campaign. As your film suggested, the emotional appeal

:20:55.:21:01.

of the Brexit campaign was strong. I heard it myself, people saying, I'm

:21:02.:21:08.

going to take a control, vote no. It was a wonderfully pithy, emotive

:21:09.:21:12.

appeal. Generally I have discovered in politics, people vote with their

:21:13.:21:16.

heads. The barrage of statistics from the Treasury, saying that in 30

:21:17.:21:21.

years' time your household finances may be worth of this or that, just

:21:22.:21:26.

could not compete. I have to say, I felt a very pivotal moment was when

:21:27.:21:31.

George Osborne, I think in a spectacularly misjudged initiative,

:21:32.:21:33.

basically announced about a week or so before the referendum, that if

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people did not do what he told them to do, he would whack up their taxes

:21:38.:21:42.

or cut their public services. I almost felt like voting out at that

:21:43.:21:47.

point X Commission think the appeal to people is hearts was much

:21:48.:21:52.

stronger. It is easy for me to say this, but I sometimes wish a bit of

:21:53.:21:55.

poetry could have been mixed in with the pros of the Remain campaign. It

:21:56.:22:01.

is interesting to see whether the public thought this was a vote on

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immigration, stellar. Was it the core issue, or was it sovereignty?

:22:07.:22:13.

And does it matter? I don't think we can get away with this. One of the

:22:14.:22:20.

moments which really broke my heart, in my community, Walthamstow has

:22:21.:22:23.

always been proud of its diversity, and I watched a Somali woman

:22:24.:22:27.

racially abusing a Hungarian woman, shouting at her that her daughter

:22:28.:22:31.

could not get a job so she should go back to the country where she came

:22:32.:22:35.

from. I knew then that the divisive rhetoric of the Leave campaign had

:22:36.:22:39.

ramifications far beyond the vote around Brexit. Absolutely, what they

:22:40.:22:43.

tapped into is a divide in this country between the people who feel

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they have a place in our future and to know how they are going to make

:22:47.:22:49.

it, and those who don't feel they have a part in our future. That is

:22:50.:22:53.

the challenge for all of us to deal with. That was not the case in my

:22:54.:23:01.

constituency. You are saying more than 50% of people feel they have no

:23:02.:23:05.

stake in the future. I am saying people felt they had nothing left to

:23:06.:23:10.

lose. There is a narrative building up about Labour voters. 58% of Tory

:23:11.:23:16.

voters, not members, voters, in the country, voted out. And that was a

:23:17.:23:22.

huge chunk of the Leave vote. And a lot of these people are not people

:23:23.:23:27.

who feel they have no stake, or have nothing to lose. They are people who

:23:28.:23:30.

made a rational choice about the future of this country. People must

:23:31.:23:36.

think that politics works for them, that is the question. We have got it

:23:37.:23:40.

changes coming up in front of us, and now some really difficult

:23:41.:23:44.

choices, do they feel the political process engages with them or not?

:23:45.:23:50.

That is the challenge for all of us. Actually, in the course of the

:23:51.:23:53.

campaign, I did an event in your father's constituency, and I think

:23:54.:23:59.

he was in the audience. And these were not people, I think it is in

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Buckinghamshire, where he lives, nick and these were people who

:24:04.:24:06.

overwhelmingly voting to leave the EU. And they were people who had...

:24:07.:24:14.

Not my dad! There is no-one explanation. Always portrayed as

:24:15.:24:22.

people who had no stake. We have had a lot of discussion today. And it is

:24:23.:24:26.

not the case. It is not the whole story. A lot of towns which had

:24:27.:24:32.

great industries and lost them did vote to leave. Let's talk about

:24:33.:24:34.

where we go from here. It appears that where we are is in making a

:24:35.:24:41.

choice between a Brexit light and a hard Brexit. Between staying in the

:24:42.:24:44.

single market or not. Or saying, immigration is what it is all about,

:24:45.:24:48.

you have got to give up on the single market to control

:24:49.:24:52.

immigration. Where are you on that? My fundamental red line is a control

:24:53.:24:57.

on free movement, some concession. I was speaking earlier, when I decided

:24:58.:25:03.

to go for Brexit, I was always euro skip it, I was not like Daniel

:25:04.:25:06.

Hannan or some of the more forceful Eurostat X, for when the Prime

:25:07.:25:12.

Minister, David Cameron, failed to get any concession whatsoever on the

:25:13.:25:15.

freedom of movement, that was the moment I think in February that I

:25:16.:25:20.

decided to Vote Leave. That was fundamental. Stellar, where are you

:25:21.:25:25.

on that trade-off? I think there is a conversation about what we mean by

:25:26.:25:30.

freedom of movement of labour, and how you define the skills and

:25:31.:25:34.

abilities which people bring two countries. But fundamentally, access

:25:35.:25:37.

to the single market is massive to our economy. It is not popular to

:25:38.:25:43.

talk about the City, but that's 30% of our tax receipts. We have got to

:25:44.:25:47.

make some hard-headed choices. Those people we were talking about are

:25:48.:25:50.

people who were left behind well before this happened. The truth

:25:51.:25:54.

about how we get them good skills, good jobs, investment in those

:25:55.:25:57.

communities, has to be at the heart of any decision. So, Brexit light,

:25:58.:26:04.

basically. What about nick, what is your view? Quasi-'s new party leader

:26:05.:26:10.

has said what she wants. She said in Paris and in Berlin, very clearly,

:26:11.:26:15.

she said, the United Kingdom will now seek, and I quote, the closest

:26:16.:26:19.

possible economic relationship with the European Union. The closest

:26:20.:26:23.

possible economic relationship with the European Union, that we have at

:26:24.:26:28.

present. In other words... And you are happy with that? Yes, I am,

:26:29.:26:34.

because at the end of the day, we at talking about people's lives and

:26:35.:26:37.

jobs and ability to pay their bills will stop I think we are talking

:26:38.:26:41.

about something akin to, maybe even better than, what Norway has got.

:26:42.:26:45.

There has been a lot of discussion about the trade-off between the

:26:46.:26:47.

single market and freedom of movement. The thing the Government

:26:48.:26:50.

needs to decide, when they finally put us all out of our misery and

:26:51.:26:54.

tell us what their plan is, they have got to be upfront about this -

:26:55.:26:58.

if you want to have unlimited or extensive access to the single

:26:59.:27:02.

market, can only do so by abiding by the rules and the rulings of the

:27:03.:27:05.

single market. I would call that a loss of sovereignty. But there is no

:27:06.:27:11.

way around that. If you want to trade into the single market, you

:27:12.:27:14.

have to abide by the rules of it. That is something this government

:27:15.:27:18.

will have to come clean with us on at some point. I want to get the

:27:19.:27:21.

views of the audience. They have been with us during the day. It was

:27:22.:27:26.

a first-come, first-served event, not like a usual BBC audience which

:27:27.:27:29.

has been constructed to be in some way balanced. And we know from the

:27:30.:27:35.

rest of the day, it is overwhelmingly Remain, in this west

:27:36.:27:44.

London venue. LAUGHTER. What I wanted to ask the audience, there

:27:45.:27:47.

was a splendid piece by Matthew Parris in the Times newspaper today,

:27:48.:27:52.

talking about Remainer grief, and we have had a fair bit of that in the

:27:53.:27:56.

room today. He was saying, you have to accept the result. What I wanted

:27:57.:28:00.

to ask the audience was, whether you accept the result, is it time to

:28:01.:28:05.

make the best of Brexit, or is it time to fight and see if you can get

:28:06.:28:09.

the referendum reversed? How many of you in the audience would say it is

:28:10.:28:12.

time to accept the result and make the best of Brexit? And how many of

:28:13.:28:17.

you would say, fight and see if you can get the thing reversed? I would

:28:18.:28:25.

say 60-40, in favour of Remain. How many people here actually think they

:28:26.:28:37.

know what Brexit will be?! APPLAUSE. Let me just ask, Stella Creasy, do

:28:38.:28:40.

you think we should have a second referendum, when we know what Brexit

:28:41.:28:45.

means? I think, yes, we have to accept the fact that that is the

:28:46.:28:49.

result. We have to deal with the result, all of us, whether we were

:28:50.:28:53.

for it or against it. But it is the small print and the detail. There

:28:54.:28:57.

are big choices. If we don't have access to the single market, that's

:28:58.:29:01.

30% of our tax receipts. If we're going to change freedom of

:29:02.:29:06.

movement... It is not 30%. The City of London... How do you know? These

:29:07.:29:12.

people now deserve the detail. I want to get a couple of views from

:29:13.:29:16.

the floor. I know we have got a group around a microphone over

:29:17.:29:20.

there. What is your view on the second referendum issue, or some way

:29:21.:29:25.

of getting back? I was one of the more than 4 million people who

:29:26.:29:28.

petitioned for a second referendum. I was hoping that the majority would

:29:29.:29:33.

now accept the importance of staying in the EU, which I think is so vital

:29:34.:29:36.

for the future of Britain, in so many aspects, including my own

:29:37.:29:40.

personal interest in the future of medical research and the British

:29:41.:29:44.

university system where I work. Howard, where are you? I think we

:29:45.:29:49.

know which side you are coming from, from your T-shirt. I am a Democrat

:29:50.:29:58.

so the government is governing with the consent of the population. The

:29:59.:30:06.

referendum gave the population the opportunity to say that they do not

:30:07.:30:09.

like the consensus the way it is at the moment. If Parliament decides

:30:10.:30:13.

that we have a proposal for how to change, it may be that the

:30:14.:30:18.

electorate should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their

:30:19.:30:22.

consent or... You are slightly untypical, I think. You are

:30:23.:30:27.

thinking, even as a Leaver you might want to put the consent back at the

:30:28.:30:31.

end of it. I am very well aware that Parliament is 75% Remain, so...

:30:32.:30:40.

I wouldn't endorse a second referendum. But there seems to be a

:30:41.:30:45.

confidence almost an arrogance on the part of the Remain team that if

:30:46.:30:49.

there were a second referendum they would get the result that they

:30:50.:30:54.

wanted. If they didn't do that, then I mean, they would have leave the

:30:55.:31:01.

pitch and abide by the result. My suspicion going round my

:31:02.:31:04.

constituency, is that the Leave vote has hardened and people are appalled

:31:05.:31:10.

by the condescension that many Remainers that's not Nick. Or my

:31:11.:31:15.

dad. Yes, your dad. Thank you all very much. Can we thank the panel,

:31:16.:31:18.

please. Thank you very much. APPLAUSE

:31:19.:31:29.

Well, it is all very well discussing this here, but what's it like in the

:31:30.:31:33.

north of England and the Midlands, where many voted to leave and many

:31:34.:31:38.

of those who voted to leave were Labour voters. We've been travelling

:31:39.:31:42.

from the industrial city of Manchester to the holiday town of

:31:43.:31:43.

Blackpool. One month on from Brexit, what did

:31:44.:32:07.

the vote reveal about Britain? Our new Prime Minister talked about one

:32:08.:32:16.

nation, but are we? Even in Manchester, where 60% voted to

:32:17.:32:23.

remain, there are divisions. You've got all sorts of famous clients.

:32:24.:32:30.

Yeah, Lady GaGa, Tess Daly, Cheryl Cole, Amanda Holden. Turkish-born

:32:31.:32:36.

designer voted to leave. Her design team was split. Have you experienced

:32:37.:32:41.

a feeling that because you voted out, people are judging in some way?

:32:42.:32:49.

Of course, yeah. Yeah. In what way? It's all over Facebook, every time

:32:50.:32:52.

anyone would comment something, within our generation, I felt like

:32:53.:32:56.

it's embarrassing to say that you voted out. Because people would be

:32:57.:33:01.

like, oh, my God, I can't believe you've done this. It feels like

:33:02.:33:06.

we're divided at the moment, do you think we can heal? I think it all

:33:07.:33:10.

depends on the Brexit strategy and what happens now. And whether we can

:33:11.:33:16.

meet a mutual agreement that's going to work for everyone. The referendum

:33:17.:33:23.

revealed fault lines in the country, class, age and geographical divides.

:33:24.:33:27.

This is a city that voted in and yet we're going out. Yeah. People are

:33:28.:33:34.

worried, are they? Because I think, the politicians they didn't explain

:33:35.:33:39.

very well to the people what's the effect will be after the elections.

:33:40.:33:47.

One of the truths universally acknowledged during the campaign is

:33:48.:33:52.

that students mainly voted in. There's a bar down here that does

:33:53.:34:02.

student discounts. How did you vote? Remain. Remain. Also remain. Do you

:34:03.:34:09.

feel part of a metropolitan elite if you voted Remain, is that how you

:34:10.:34:15.

see yourself? The idea of 48% of the population being an elite and 66% of

:34:16.:34:19.

Scotland being an elite is ridiculous. The great majority of

:34:20.:34:23.

people who voted out, voted out because they felt they had no

:34:24.:34:26.

control. There's no other way to say what they wanted to say. Have you

:34:27.:34:32.

felt anger, upset, dismay? Dismissing who voted in a different

:34:33.:34:37.

way from you as racist or uneducated is essentially the wrong way to go.

:34:38.:34:41.

In the long run, it's going to do far more damage to the country than

:34:42.:34:50.

Brexit ever could. Manchester and Liverpool are exceptional.

:34:51.:34:52.

Everywhere else round here voted out. I'm leaving Manchester now. Off

:34:53.:34:59.

to visit some other parts of the North West.

:35:00.:35:08.

In Tory voting Ribble Valley 56% voted leave. We've just Intercepted

:35:09.:35:16.

you, John. You have. Where are you off to? For my paper. John used to

:35:17.:35:22.

run the village shop. He voted to Remain. And how do you feel about

:35:23.:35:30.

the result? Well, we've got used to it, haven't we? Inside the shop,

:35:31.:35:37.

Barry White was about to be outshone. I'm told that you're a

:35:38.:35:41.

good singer, have you got any songs? # So if it's raining

:35:42.:35:46.

# I've no regrets # It's not rain, rain you know - bit

:35:47.:35:53.

of A already Jolson that. Do you think it is raining because of the

:35:54.:35:56.

referendum or are you happy with the way we've gone? I'm happy with it. I

:35:57.:36:01.

am. We'll all stick together. If we all stick together and make a better

:36:02.:36:09.

future. These parts are known as the milk fields of Lancashire. Outside

:36:10.:36:15.

the local cheesemakers, I found a family divided. Mum voted in, her

:36:16.:36:19.

daughters were split. You're scared about what the vote will mean for

:36:20.:36:26.

Britain? I am, really, yeah. But as I say, I think Theresa May, of

:36:27.:36:33.

anybody, will possibly pull us through this. We were all so aghast,

:36:34.:36:37.

especially me and my friends. We were very upset I think and quite

:36:38.:36:43.

angry towards maybe the older generation. When I was speaking to

:36:44.:36:48.

Faye a few days after, it was more of a "Are you happy that this has

:36:49.:36:52.

happened? " How did you feel, what did you say? All my fault then! It's

:36:53.:37:04.

all my fault that one decision. You don't get more British than the

:37:05.:37:11.

seaside at Lytham St Annes. At the local tea shop, I came across Hilda

:37:12.:37:17.

and Malcom, both Out voters. Have you picked up a sort of sense, I

:37:18.:37:22.

don't know, a bad feeling between the people who voted out and the

:37:23.:37:26.

people who voted in? I think some people are really biassed and

:37:27.:37:30.

bigoted and can't always look for the other person's point of view,

:37:31.:37:35.

which is sad really, because we're all the same under the skin. We all

:37:36.:37:40.

have our own view points. And hopefully, we can all learn to live

:37:41.:37:44.

in peace together. What do you say to young people who say - you

:37:45.:37:47.

shouldn't have been allowed a vote because you're not going to be

:37:48.:37:49.

around to live with the consequences? I'd say, a vote's a

:37:50.:38:00.

vote for everybody. Leave it at that.

:38:01.:38:11.

I'm ending my trip in Blackpool, with its darker underbelly behind

:38:12.:38:19.

the promise of bright lights. 68% of people voted out in Labour

:38:20.:38:22.

Blackpool, the highest figure in the North West. At Amazing Greys, a soup

:38:23.:38:31.

kitchen, they offer 15,000 meals a year. Tell me why you think out was

:38:32.:38:42.

the right vote? Erm...... Because I think it will bring a lot more jobs

:38:43.:38:46.

back to Blackpool. You think as a result of the vote, things will get

:38:47.:38:50.

better for people like you here? Yeah. All the jobs are being taken

:38:51.:38:54.

before the season even starts. Is that by people who aren't from

:38:55.:38:58.

Blackpool, you think? There's a lot of people moving into Blackpool all

:38:59.:39:03.

the time, because they think it's like London, bright lights, big

:39:04.:39:07.

city. It's not. We've got a new Prime Minister. She's talking about

:39:08.:39:10.

one nation, she's appealing to people like you saying, I'm going to

:39:11.:39:15.

think about you, when I make a decision. A lot of people don't like

:39:16.:39:20.

her, but I think she might be pretty good actually. In this journey

:39:21.:39:30.

across the North West, I've lost count of the number of times people

:39:31.:39:33.

have said to me from either side of the debate that they voted with the

:39:34.:39:37.

future in mind. In a sense, that's the thing that unites us. But it's

:39:38.:39:44.

also something that could divide us, if the future doesn't pan out the

:39:45.:39:51.

way each of us hopes. I'm joined now by a leading

:39:52.:39:56.

Brexiteer, Daniel Hannon, one of the men who led the charge for Out. And

:39:57.:40:01.

the writer and commentator Paul Mason. What we've been hearing and

:40:02.:40:06.

Katie explored that in her film, is the number of divisions and splits,

:40:07.:40:09.

within families, old and young, across the country, Scottish,

:40:10.:40:13.

English, so forth. That's a lot to heal and you've got the troubles on

:40:14.:40:18.

the left. We're not going to heal some of these divisions. The number

:40:19.:40:23.

one unhealable division is Scotland. If I were Scottish I would vote to

:40:24.:40:29.

leave the United Kingdom and remain in the EU. We overemphasise the

:40:30.:40:33.

generational thing. Something that I lament is a view that common in a

:40:34.:40:37.

place like London, is that all of this was caused by ignorance,

:40:38.:40:43.

xenophobia etc. We cannot describe 52% of the population like that.

:40:44.:40:48.

Even the most visceral and voting with your heart Leavism was often

:40:49.:40:51.

very well informed. My side lost. We have to accept it. And then, we will

:40:52.:40:56.

unite around what is the proposal. What is the proposal we're able to

:40:57.:41:01.

get from Europe, what's the maximum amount of engagement with the single

:41:02.:41:06.

market we can get. That is the problem, a month on, nature abhors a

:41:07.:41:10.

vacuum, but we are no clear what that proposal may be. There may be

:41:11.:41:15.

bright, young civil servants trying to work that out. Can you not tell

:41:16.:41:18.

the people in here what Brexit actually looks like, because there

:41:19.:41:25.

is no prospeck Tuesday. Before the -- prospectus. Before the campaign

:41:26.:41:29.

we produced a million-page study on what we would like to do. The

:41:30.:41:32.

reality is it was a close vote. We don't have a mandate to roll over

:41:33.:41:37.

48%. That's as big a minority as you can have. You correctly say the UK

:41:38.:41:43.

is a partner of nations. Two of the four countries voted to remain in.

:41:44.:41:47.

We can't disregard that. The narrowness of the mandate will exert

:41:48.:41:50.

a measure of moderation, because we need to try and find a consensus

:41:51.:41:55.

that both sides can live with, even if without great enthusiasm. One of

:41:56.:41:59.

the big issues of course, is that you believe passionately that

:42:00.:42:01.

immigration wasn't an issue. Clearly your new Prime Minister does,

:42:02.:42:04.

because the thing that she said that nobody else had said was that the

:42:05.:42:08.

position of EU nationals in this country may be an issue and so

:42:09.:42:15.

therefore, that is now on the table. I didn't say immigration wasn't an

:42:16.:42:18.

issue. That is a division that may exist. People are concerned,

:42:19.:42:24.

families, friends. The BBC did its own poll about this. 21% of Leave

:42:25.:42:31.

voters expect a very drastic fall in numbers of EU migrants after Brexit.

:42:32.:42:36.

11% of all voters. This was not "the" top issue. People wanted

:42:37.:42:40.

control so that we're in charge of roughly who comes out and roughly in

:42:41.:42:43.

what numbers. That doesn't mean zero immigration. For very bright people

:42:44.:42:47.

in here, the word roughly is a nightmare. Because what does

:42:48.:42:52.

"roughly" mean. You either have free movement of people or you don't.

:42:53.:42:55.

Paul, immigration was very much an issue in the north-east of England,

:42:56.:42:59.

Labour didn't get that one right. You may cede lots of votes to Ukip

:43:00.:43:03.

in the future because of that. What are you going to do about the issue

:43:04.:43:06.

of free movement? It's not a bit of it, it's either free movement or

:43:07.:43:12.

not? That's not true. What I would do and I'm strongly pushing this, is

:43:13.:43:17.

that we apply to be in the European Economic Area, to remain in the

:43:18.:43:20.

single market, and we say, because in it you can have an emergency

:43:21.:43:24.

brake on free movement. That's only a temporary variance. We say we'll

:43:25.:43:28.

address with microeconomic policies the things that people are worried

:43:29.:43:32.

about, give us time to do itment the challenge has to be to everybody in

:43:33.:43:35.

politics - what is wrong with that? Tell us what you think is wrong with

:43:36.:43:42.

that, since you all claim to be pro-migration, not anti-may grags,

:43:43.:43:46.

not racist -- antimigration, not racist, what is wrong with seeking

:43:47.:43:51.

temporary breathing space to get the consent for migration back. In terms

:43:52.:43:55.

of healing divides then, you said it was a very narrow vote. It was a

:43:56.:43:59.

vote to lever, but a narrow -- to leave, but a narrow vote. What do

:44:00.:44:03.

you think about that model, the Norway model? Is that something that

:44:04.:44:06.

is seriously being considered or not? First point, we're not going to

:44:07.:44:10.

copy any other country. Throughout the campaign people kept saying are

:44:11.:44:14.

you going to be like Norway, like Canada? The fact you put the

:44:15.:44:18.

question like that, shows that none of those countries has an identical

:44:19.:44:24.

model. Hang on, you haven't, nobody yet has come up with a model. What

:44:25.:44:28.

every country in Europe has in common, all of the non-EU countries,

:44:29.:44:32.

whether it's mass done ya, Isle of Man, all of them -- Macedonia, they

:44:33.:44:38.

all have access to the EU market without political union. We know the

:44:39.:44:41.

parameters within which these talks are going to happen. We want market

:44:42.:44:46.

access. . We want democratic control. There is going to be some

:44:47.:44:49.

free movement under this Conservative Government? No. Which

:44:50.:44:52.

is going to deal with Conservative MPs who are very concerned about

:44:53.:44:57.

this? We made one absolutely clear promise, we would take back control

:44:58.:45:01.

of immigration policy. That can mean only one thing, it means that no

:45:02.:45:04.

European Court will get to determine who can enter the UK or who can

:45:05.:45:09.

reside in the UK. Having taken back control, it will be for the people

:45:10.:45:13.

and their Parliamentarians to decide whether to have bilateral deals,

:45:14.:45:17.

whether to allow people to study, take up particular job offers. That

:45:18.:45:21.

will be for us to decide through our own democratic institutions. Paul,

:45:22.:45:29.

when I talk about nature abhors a vacuum, revised growth figures 1. 7

:45:30.:45:34.

next year, 1. 3, there may be a downturn that harms the very people

:45:35.:45:38.

who voted to lever. If there's an economic downturn it harms

:45:39.:45:42.

everybody. What I am worried about is that racist populism is out of

:45:43.:45:45.

the bottle. Whatever Nigel Farage says now he regrets using that

:45:46.:45:50.

image, we saw him earlier say that, racist populism is there in pubs, in

:45:51.:45:55.

clubs. If the economy now goes down the tubes, I never bought the whole

:45:56.:46:02.

Bank of England, treasurery kind of thing, I said this publicly, but it

:46:03.:46:06.

may happen and what we have to do now is work together, not only to

:46:07.:46:11.

reassure those EU migrants, but a big backlash against Muslims

:46:12.:46:13.

happened on the street after this, who had nothing to do with EU

:46:14.:46:18.

membership. We have to work to prevent this racist populism getting

:46:19.:46:18.

further out of the bottle. APPLAUSE. Just a quick word on that

:46:19.:46:37.

- on the question of arginine with EU nationals that are here already,

:46:38.:46:42.

is that a go or not? Personally, I made it clear all the way through

:46:43.:46:46.

that we should not put that in jeopardy. I think it is terribly

:46:47.:46:51.

unfair to all of the British Muslims who voted Leave, to suggest that

:46:52.:46:55.

they are lumped in with all of these racists. They were making a rational

:46:56.:47:00.

decision. When people here were asked, what will Brexit be? Brexit

:47:01.:47:05.

is there. Do you believe that you should put the Brexit plan to the

:47:06.:47:12.

people? Brexit means that we end the jurisdiction of EU courts over...

:47:13.:47:17.

They say there is not won at the moment, and there is not a model.

:47:18.:47:21.

There is not a plan. The question is, how much they can we implement

:47:22.:47:26.

if we want to carry the Remainers who have not accepted the result, as

:47:27.:47:30.

we saw earlier. And we want to try and bring with us as many as

:47:31.:47:34.

possible of that 48%, then we may have to stop short of a complete

:47:35.:47:40.

severance, and retain many of our political, economic and diplomatic

:47:41.:47:44.

connections with Europe, for the sake -- for the sake of keeping the

:47:45.:47:53.

union together. Over to Evan Davis. That is actually about it for this

:47:54.:47:57.

evening. The temperature in here tells us we are getting into the

:47:58.:48:02.

deep summer. Journalists call it the silly season. Maybe you think it has

:48:03.:48:05.

all been a bit mad over the non-silly season. Some of us are

:48:06.:48:09.

yearning for a period in which biggest story is a cat stuck up a

:48:10.:48:13.

tree. We will continue to scrutinise what happens over the next few

:48:14.:48:17.

months. Let me thank the Royal Geographical Society for hosting us

:48:18.:48:23.

come and also Intelligence Squared, for helping us to organise it. And

:48:24.:48:27.

above all, to our audience. To finish, we thought we would leave

:48:28.:48:31.

you with a short tribute to one of those careers ended, for now, since

:48:32.:48:36.

Brexit. So it is good night from us, and it is good night from them. I

:48:37.:48:40.

love this country and I feel honoured to have served it.

:48:41.:48:50.

# Bye-bye, love # Bye-bye, happiness

:48:51.:48:58.

# Hello, loneliness... That is not the outcome that I threw everything

:48:59.:49:07.

into campaigning for. No regrets. Mr Corbyn, how can you survive?

:49:08.:49:17.

# There goes my baby... Stepping aside. Resigned. Resigning today.

:49:18.:49:29.

# Bye-bye, sweet caress... What I am saying today is, I want my life

:49:30.:49:33.

back. And it begins right now. Thank you.

:49:34.:49:43.

It sparked the greatest transformation in British history.

:49:44.:49:46.

It had nothing like the impact of the railways.

:49:47.:49:55.

Discover how the steam revolution shaped the way we live today.

:49:56.:50:00.

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