Brexit Britain: One Month In - Newsnight Special Newsnight

Brexit Britain: One Month In - Newsnight Special

A Newsnight special discussing Brexit Britain, one month after the EU referendum. Presented by Evan Davis.

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It's 7am Friday 24th of June and the people of Britain have voted to


leave the European Union in an historic move that has stunned the


rest of the continent. They have decided that it is time to vote to


take back control. This is a dreadful day. It's one of the worst


days of my life to find my country leaving. What swayed it for you? I


don't know. I suddenly had a real, "Come on England." We are part of


Europe, continuing to interact with the peoples of other countries. Look


at my hand, we work for this country. You see it, yeah? In a way


that is open and friendly and outward looking. 3% is not a


majority. Let's do this again. One more time! The most precious thing


this country has given our continent is the idea of Parliamentary


democracy. I do not think it would be right for me to try to be the


captain that steers our country to its next destination. Shame on you


Boris! The young people in this country can look forward to a more


secure and more prosperous future. We couldn't have voted better, a lot


time country. At least we get our country back. You want to take your


troops from JP Morgan to the Paris, have a lovely holiday, because I'll


give you a clue guys, you'll be back. Vote for hope. You can't vote


for hope. There's no hope nowadays. We believe in a union not just


between the nations of the UK but between all of our citizens, every


one of us, whoever we are, and wherever we're from.


Hello. It's exactly a month since referendum day June 23, the day


everything changed. There's been so much to take in. On Newsnight we've


barely had time to cover it all. Today we're taking stock. We're at


the Royal Geographical Society in London live. We've teamed up with


the country's top brains and an audience of about 700 foolhardy


members of the public on this stiflingly warm evening and we're


trying to make sense of what has happened and what's next.


The conversation and the debate this afternoon has been both sparky and


sparkling. Everything on the future of scientific research, in a Brexit


world and what will happen to laws, such as the European arrest warrant


and cyber security. Now that Theresa May has raise today, the possible


issues of EU nationals already in UK remaining, and UK nationals in


Europe. We've been asking people for their hopes and fears.




times. Most people voted because they wanted to take back control


from the European Union and let our country govern itself again. That


offers a world of opportunity both in terms of our social policy, in


terms of our economic policy too. For me, my hopes and fears are


centred on my education. I was really looking to study languages in


perhaps France or Spain. I fear about, there will be less interest


in environmental concerns. I think my hopes for Brexit are that we


leave the EU as safe as we can, with minimal damage. There's been a lot


of talking all day here. Before we look ahead, we want to spend a few


minutes looking back at the referendum campaign itself. It was


easily one of the most memorable contests of our lifetime, a


surprisingly devicive and fraught affair. Both sides accused the other


of lying or exaggerating. Even though the public by all accounts


were sceptical of the claims made, they were engaged. I remember


someone involved on one side saying the turnout would be low, lucky if


it reached 60%. In the event it was over 70. At the end of it, one side


won, the other lost. Now it's important to know how and why Leave


did win in order to interpret the message the public were sending. Our


political editor has been talking to those at the heart of the campaigns


and has this, the inside story of why Leave prevailed.


If Boris Johnson looked surprised and a little shaken, hours after


vote leave's historic victory, that's because he was. Newsnight


understands that as voters went to the polls, Boris thought that his


campaign was probably headed for defeat. He had even drafted a series


of remarks in response to an expected narrow loss in the


referendum. So how did the Prime Minister end up on the losing side?


When David Cameron took a gamble by calling the referendum, Boris


Johnson had some sympathy for his view that it would be third time


lucky for the Prime Minister. He had won the Scottish and the general


election. Behind-the-scenes, though, on the Remain side, there was never


any complacency. Alarm bells started to ring for some shortly after the


general election last year, when the leaders of the main pro-EU group


were asked at a board meeting at this building here to name their ten


favourite things about the EU. There was silence around the table. For


the true believers, the benefits of the EU were simply beyond


description. Back in 2015, in April, we got our first research from the


populist, the pollsters throughout the campaign. It showed that people


knew all the negative arguments about the EU and couldn't name a


single positive about what the EU meant. The Remain camp soon found


they had to contend with a simple, but highly effective message from


their opponents. The genius moment came in August of last year, we were


in the office at Westminster tower over there, half of the office was a


building site at that point, the other half was working on trestle


tables and Dominic had the moment. He said, the message has to be -


vote leave, take control. That developed into vote leave, take back


control. We knew it was a message that would cut through. David


Cameron had been confident that the Tories' star player would be on his


side. But Boris Johnson alerted the Prime Minister of his plan to join


the Leave campaign shortly before his formal announcement Had it just


been me, we would have lost. It's simple. You have to have different


messengers. There's little doubt that the Boris voice, the Michael


Gove voice probably was very useful in parts of Surrey and places,


really in places like that, where perhaps naturally, Remain might have


had a bigger vote and where I wouldn't necessarily have appealed


to those people. Boris has extraordinary ability to attract


crowds, in a way which you wouldn't dare to stage manage. The first time


out and we were given two ice creams. This woman goes up to Boris


and says, oh, can I eat your ice-cream, please. There you go,


it's delicious. While the Leave campaign had a showbiz feel, the


Government had the international big guns. Barack Obama used a visit to


London to warn that the UK would, in a distinctly un-American phrase, be


at the back of the queue in securing a trade deal outside the EU. Shortly


after the Obama visit, the Leave campaigners gathered in Boris


Johnson's Westminster office to assess the state of play, over a


Chinese takeaway. We came under barrage, after barrage of artillery


fire from the IMF, from the OECD, from the Bank of England, Obama came


over late April. I remember having dinner with, I think, Boris,


Michael, Andrea and Priti and we had a discussion on what would happen. I


said I thought we would win because they'd fired all this stuff at us


and we were neck and neck. The Remain campaign thought they were on


strong ground, as they highlighted their opponents' claim about how


much money the UK sends to the EU. The ?350 million figure was


devastatingly effective. The last thing that we wanted to do was get


into an argument on television with the Leave campaign about whether the


real figure was 350 million or 170 million or 210 million because all


those numbers sound huge. The challenge was to find a number that


trumped it, as a number that captured the benefits of being in


for our economy and for people and therefore the risks of leaving. We


failed to do that. Every time they kept quibbling with us about it, we


made the positive case for control over our borders, control over our


money. It gave us another 24 hours talking about an issue that people


cared about and where we were on the right side of the debate. You're not


going to give that up. Nerves soon developed in the Remain campaign


over a Government claim about the economic impact of Brexit on the


average household. The problem with that figure, the ?4,300 figure,


firstly, it sounded implauzibly large to the ears of most people.


Secondly, it sounded strangely specific. The figure was phased out.


When we tested the reaction, people just rejected it. They didn't


believe. It The Remain camp also became aware that its core message


about the wider being nomic risks of exit meant nothing in deprived


areas, where concerns about immigration were to the fore. The


people who were very, very concerned about immigration, what they wanted


was purely and simply for the UK to be able to have total control of its


borders and total control of the flow of people into this country. We


didn't have an argument that could remotely compete with that. We


couldn't really engage in the campaign on that vital issue. We


didn't have much option but to keep pivot back to the economic risks.


With a month to go until polling day, the Remain campaign lost its


momentum when the Government machinery was obliged to grind to a


halt. This coincided with the release of official figures, which


showed that the Government had once again bust its net migration target.


Vote Leave had days of dream headlines. With the polls turning in


vote Leave's favour, I understand in mid-June a nervous David Cameron


discussed with aides in Number Ten a last throw of the dice to rescue his


campaign by reaching out to disgruntled voters on EU migration.


The Prime Minister telephoned the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, as


a first step towards persuading other EU leaders to issue a joint


statement. This would have said that a vote to remain in the EU would


finally trigger concessions on the highly controversial issue of free


movement of people. Nothing came of the idea. Merkel was later to tell


David Cameron there could be no compromise on free movement, while


Number Ten concluded that such a dramatic move would be portrayed by


the Leave side as a sign of weakness. But a week before polling


day, the campaign came to an unexpected halt, when news came


through of the murder of the Labour MP, Jo Cox, hours after Ukip had


unveiled a highly controversial poster. I don't think that poster


would have been a big news event over that weekend, had it not been


for the timing of it and the circumstances of that death. After


all, that particular picture was all over the front pages of our


newspapers last year. I'm very sorry for the timing of the poster. I'm


sorry for the way in which it was used. I'm not sorry for showing the


truth. But perhaps unwittingly, it did, in the end, get the debate


back, for the last few days, onto the one thing that people out there


really, really care about. The official vote Leave campaign were


appalled by the poster. I was actually in the middle of a debate


at York University when all a sudden, I was getting text messages


through on my phone about Joe Cox's murder. When I got the news through


that he shouted "Britain first" I thought it could be the end of the


campaign. The mixture of Joe Cox's death plus the unveiling of the very


controversial Ukip poster - breaking point - I thought could tip us over


the edge. The two sides briefly suspended their campaigns, after the


death of Jo Cox. But hostilities resumed in time for the final


television show down days before the vote.


For me, it was really clear during the preparation sessions for the TV


debates, I was playing the role of Andrea Leadsom. What was clear they


had one simple phrase and they just kept repeating it and it allowed


them to have an answer to anybody's concerns over anything, whether you


fear for your job, whether you don't like the Government, whether you


have concerns over pressures on public services, vote leave, take


back control. Really simple. The Remain side also believed that


Jeremy Corbyn's less than enthusiastic support undermined


their campaign. It was a nightmare to have less than enthusiastic


support from the leader of the Labour Party. The Labour Party made


up the bulk of the correct voters. It was absolutely crucial to get our


message to them. What we were frustrated by was how hard it was to


engage with Jeremy Corbyn's office, how difficult it was to get


meetings. The Leave side triumphed after David Cameron lost his gamble.


In the end, the desire to win back control over relegation trumped


fears over economic uncertainty and unnerved Boris Johnson to say that


the UK might be leaving the EU didn't it would always embrace


Europe. Well, I dare say, huge tracts will


be, and on that campaign. Here with us now, the former Deputy Prime


Minister Nick Clegg, Labour MP Stella Creasy and Conservative and


Leave campaigner... I just wonder whether you think the immigration


issue in the end was what won it? I think it was a mixture of things.


Certainly I experienced this in Sheffield and South Yorkshire, where


I was campaigning - a lot of people who were asked, do you like the


status quo? I said, I don't. There was a lot of issues, immigration,


poor housing, social care for elderly relatives. It was a simple,


do you like the way things are? And a lot of people said no. That and


many other reasons lie behind the big vote to leave. Should they not


have thought what the answer, had a line, which might work? My own view


is, some declaration which the Brexit camp would have been able to


shoot holes in within minutes, from the European leaders, press-ganged


at the last minute, would not have worked. My own view was that the


Remain camp should have been much, much more aggressive at challenging


the Brexit campaign about what on earth they mean. Because the


immigration story went unchallenged. Just this week we have had the Prime


Minister of Ireland saying very clearly, there will not be hard


controls on our border with the EU. So how on earth are we supposed to


take back control if we are not going to reintroduce controls at the


new border with the EU? All of that was left unchallenged because Remain


camp did not want to take on the issue of immigration. I think they


could have done that with more aggression and self confidence than


they did. What did you think of Jeremy Corbyn's role, was he part of


the reason why Remain did not win? I have to say on that, on a personal


level, it hurts. It hurts to see that actually something we decided


as a political movement, something we felt strongly enough for it to be


official policy, not getting the backing of the leader. That does not


mean that Jeremy personally could have got every single Labour voter


to vote Remain. We have to recognise that lots of people who normally


vote Labour did vote to leave. But it is about the contract that you


make as a political movement. Once you agree something as party policy,


you put your heart and soul into it. I went around the country, many


others worked very hard to try to get a Remain vote, to try to counter


some of those arguments, to recognise that we have a country


which is so very divided now reading how we were going to take it


forward. And it felt like Jeremy pulled himself out of that process.


And on a personal level, that hurt. Something so fundamental, not forget


that heart and soul from your leader is devastating. Let's not talk too


much about the campaign. Let's talk about what the voters were saying.


Nick, you gave an account, it was a vote against the status quo.


Stellar, I think you're saying almost the same thing. As a Leaver,


what do you think the voters were saying, was it a bigger protest of


some kind? I think what nick said is true. There is a lot of truth in


saying that there were a number of issues, not just one reason. But we


cannot gloss over the fact that the whole issue of EU membership was


exactly what it said it was. People knew they were going to have to


vote, that if we voted to stay in, we would not revisit this question


for 25 years. They felt it was a once-in-a-lifetime vote. I felt they


were very clear eyed about whether they wanted to stay in, certainly in


my constituency, which voted 60-40 out. They made a rational choice,


and they said, we want to leave. We want out. What do you read into


that? Was it immigration? Was it, take back control and what you might


call sovereignty, that sense of empowerment you might get by being


able to kick out your politicians? The two biggest issues were clearly


immigration, and also this broader, more abstract sense of sovereignty.


We can have a philosophical argument about what sovereignty is. But


certainly in my constituency, people felt that by leaving the EU, they


were leaving some sense of... What were the figures? I have seen some


polling data. I suspect that about 70% were one of those two issues.


Those were by far the biggest issues. Do you agree with that, that


those two issues Blade Babe part 18 or do you think you cannot reduce it


to anyone of them? I will tell you what I do think it emerged during


the course of the campaign. As your film suggested, the emotional appeal


of the Brexit campaign was strong. I heard it myself, people saying, I'm


going to take a control, vote no. It was a wonderfully pithy, emotive


appeal. Generally I have discovered in politics, people vote with their


heads. The barrage of statistics from the Treasury, saying that in 30


years' time your household finances may be worth of this or that, just


could not compete. I have to say, I felt a very pivotal moment was when


George Osborne, I think in a spectacularly misjudged initiative,


basically announced about a week or so before the referendum, that if


people did not do what he told them to do, he would whack up their taxes


or cut their public services. I almost felt like voting out at that


point X Commission think the appeal to people is hearts was much


stronger. It is easy for me to say this, but I sometimes wish a bit of


poetry could have been mixed in with the pros of the Remain campaign. It


is interesting to see whether the public thought this was a vote on


immigration, stellar. Was it the core issue, or was it sovereignty?


And does it matter? I don't think we can get away with this. One of the


moments which really broke my heart, in my community, Walthamstow has


always been proud of its diversity, and I watched a Somali woman


racially abusing a Hungarian woman, shouting at her that her daughter


could not get a job so she should go back to the country where she came


from. I knew then that the divisive rhetoric of the Leave campaign had


ramifications far beyond the vote around Brexit. Absolutely, what they


tapped into is a divide in this country between the people who feel


they have a place in our future and to know how they are going to make


it, and those who don't feel they have a part in our future. That is


the challenge for all of us to deal with. That was not the case in my


constituency. You are saying more than 50% of people feel they have no


stake in the future. I am saying people felt they had nothing left to


lose. There is a narrative building up about Labour voters. 58% of Tory


voters, not members, voters, in the country, voted out. And that was a


huge chunk of the Leave vote. And a lot of these people are not people


who feel they have no stake, or have nothing to lose. They are people who


made a rational choice about the future of this country. People must


think that politics works for them, that is the question. We have got it


changes coming up in front of us, and now some really difficult


choices, do they feel the political process engages with them or not?


That is the challenge for all of us. Actually, in the course of the


campaign, I did an event in your father's constituency, and I think


he was in the audience. And these were not people, I think it is in


Buckinghamshire, where he lives, nick and these were people who


overwhelmingly voting to leave the EU. And they were people who had...


Not my dad! There is no-one explanation. Always portrayed as


people who had no stake. We have had a lot of discussion today. And it is


not the case. It is not the whole story. A lot of towns which had


great industries and lost them did vote to leave. Let's talk about


where we go from here. It appears that where we are is in making a


choice between a Brexit light and a hard Brexit. Between staying in the


single market or not. Or saying, immigration is what it is all about,


you have got to give up on the single market to control


immigration. Where are you on that? My fundamental red line is a control


on free movement, some concession. I was speaking earlier, when I decided


to go for Brexit, I was always euro skip it, I was not like Daniel


Hannan or some of the more forceful Eurostat X, for when the Prime


Minister, David Cameron, failed to get any concession whatsoever on the


freedom of movement, that was the moment I think in February that I


decided to Vote Leave. That was fundamental. Stellar, where are you


on that trade-off? I think there is a conversation about what we mean by


freedom of movement of labour, and how you define the skills and


abilities which people bring two countries. But fundamentally, access


to the single market is massive to our economy. It is not popular to


talk about the City, but that's 30% of our tax receipts. We have got to


make some hard-headed choices. Those people we were talking about are


people who were left behind well before this happened. The truth


about how we get them good skills, good jobs, investment in those


communities, has to be at the heart of any decision. So, Brexit light,


basically. What about nick, what is your view? Quasi-'s new party leader


has said what she wants. She said in Paris and in Berlin, very clearly,


she said, the United Kingdom will now seek, and I quote, the closest


possible economic relationship with the European Union. The closest


possible economic relationship with the European Union, that we have at


present. In other words... And you are happy with that? Yes, I am,


because at the end of the day, we at talking about people's lives and


jobs and ability to pay their bills will stop I think we are talking


about something akin to, maybe even better than, what Norway has got.


There has been a lot of discussion about the trade-off between the


single market and freedom of movement. The thing the Government


needs to decide, when they finally put us all out of our misery and


tell us what their plan is, they have got to be upfront about this -


if you want to have unlimited or extensive access to the single


market, can only do so by abiding by the rules and the rulings of the


single market. I would call that a loss of sovereignty. But there is no


way around that. If you want to trade into the single market, you


have to abide by the rules of it. That is something this government


will have to come clean with us on at some point. I want to get the


views of the audience. They have been with us during the day. It was


a first-come, first-served event, not like a usual BBC audience which


has been constructed to be in some way balanced. And we know from the


rest of the day, it is overwhelmingly Remain, in this west


London venue. LAUGHTER. What I wanted to ask the audience, there


was a splendid piece by Matthew Parris in the Times newspaper today,


talking about Remainer grief, and we have had a fair bit of that in the


room today. He was saying, you have to accept the result. What I wanted


to ask the audience was, whether you accept the result, is it time to


make the best of Brexit, or is it time to fight and see if you can get


the referendum reversed? How many of you in the audience would say it is


time to accept the result and make the best of Brexit? And how many of


you would say, fight and see if you can get the thing reversed? I would


say 60-40, in favour of Remain. How many people here actually think they


know what Brexit will be?! APPLAUSE. Let me just ask, Stella Creasy, do


you think we should have a second referendum, when we know what Brexit


means? I think, yes, we have to accept the fact that that is the


result. We have to deal with the result, all of us, whether we were


for it or against it. But it is the small print and the detail. There


are big choices. If we don't have access to the single market, that's


30% of our tax receipts. If we're going to change freedom of


movement... It is not 30%. The City of London... How do you know? These


people now deserve the detail. I want to get a couple of views from


the floor. I know we have got a group around a microphone over


there. What is your view on the second referendum issue, or some way


of getting back? I was one of the more than 4 million people who


petitioned for a second referendum. I was hoping that the majority would


now accept the importance of staying in the EU, which I think is so vital


for the future of Britain, in so many aspects, including my own


personal interest in the future of medical research and the British


university system where I work. Howard, where are you? I think we


know which side you are coming from, from your T-shirt. I am a Democrat


so the government is governing with the consent of the population. The


referendum gave the population the opportunity to say that they do not


like the consensus the way it is at the moment. If Parliament decides


that we have a proposal for how to change, it may be that the


electorate should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their


consent or... You are slightly untypical, I think. You are


thinking, even as a Leaver you might want to put the consent back at the


end of it. I am very well aware that Parliament is 75% Remain, so...


I wouldn't endorse a second referendum. But there seems to be a


confidence almost an arrogance on the part of the Remain team that if


there were a second referendum they would get the result that they


wanted. If they didn't do that, then I mean, they would have leave the


pitch and abide by the result. My suspicion going round my


constituency, is that the Leave vote has hardened and people are appalled


by the condescension that many Remainers that's not Nick. Or my


dad. Yes, your dad. Thank you all very much. Can we thank the panel,


please. Thank you very much. APPLAUSE


Well, it is all very well discussing this here, but what's it like in the


north of England and the Midlands, where many voted to leave and many


of those who voted to leave were Labour voters. We've been travelling


from the industrial city of Manchester to the holiday town of


Blackpool. One month on from Brexit, what did


the vote reveal about Britain? Our new Prime Minister talked about one


nation, but are we? Even in Manchester, where 60% voted to


remain, there are divisions. You've got all sorts of famous clients.


Yeah, Lady GaGa, Tess Daly, Cheryl Cole, Amanda Holden. Turkish-born


designer voted to leave. Her design team was split. Have you experienced


a feeling that because you voted out, people are judging in some way?


Of course, yeah. Yeah. In what way? It's all over Facebook, every time


anyone would comment something, within our generation, I felt like


it's embarrassing to say that you voted out. Because people would be


like, oh, my God, I can't believe you've done this. It feels like


we're divided at the moment, do you think we can heal? I think it all


depends on the Brexit strategy and what happens now. And whether we can


meet a mutual agreement that's going to work for everyone. The referendum


revealed fault lines in the country, class, age and geographical divides.


This is a city that voted in and yet we're going out. Yeah. People are


worried, are they? Because I think, the politicians they didn't explain


very well to the people what's the effect will be after the elections.


One of the truths universally acknowledged during the campaign is


that students mainly voted in. There's a bar down here that does


student discounts. How did you vote? Remain. Remain. Also remain. Do you


feel part of a metropolitan elite if you voted Remain, is that how you


see yourself? The idea of 48% of the population being an elite and 66% of


Scotland being an elite is ridiculous. The great majority of


people who voted out, voted out because they felt they had no


control. There's no other way to say what they wanted to say. Have you


felt anger, upset, dismay? Dismissing who voted in a different


way from you as racist or uneducated is essentially the wrong way to go.


In the long run, it's going to do far more damage to the country than


Brexit ever could. Manchester and Liverpool are exceptional.


Everywhere else round here voted out. I'm leaving Manchester now. Off


to visit some other parts of the North West.


In Tory voting Ribble Valley 56% voted leave. We've just Intercepted


you, John. You have. Where are you off to? For my paper. John used to


run the village shop. He voted to Remain. And how do you feel about


the result? Well, we've got used to it, haven't we? Inside the shop,


Barry White was about to be outshone. I'm told that you're a


good singer, have you got any songs? # So if it's raining


# I've no regrets # It's not rain, rain you know - bit


of A already Jolson that. Do you think it is raining because of the


referendum or are you happy with the way we've gone? I'm happy with it. I


am. We'll all stick together. If we all stick together and make a better


future. These parts are known as the milk fields of Lancashire. Outside


the local cheesemakers, I found a family divided. Mum voted in, her


daughters were split. You're scared about what the vote will mean for


Britain? I am, really, yeah. But as I say, I think Theresa May, of


anybody, will possibly pull us through this. We were all so aghast,


especially me and my friends. We were very upset I think and quite


angry towards maybe the older generation. When I was speaking to


Faye a few days after, it was more of a "Are you happy that this has


happened? " How did you feel, what did you say? All my fault then! It's


all my fault that one decision. You don't get more British than the


seaside at Lytham St Annes. At the local tea shop, I came across Hilda


and Malcom, both Out voters. Have you picked up a sort of sense, I


don't know, a bad feeling between the people who voted out and the


people who voted in? I think some people are really biassed and


bigoted and can't always look for the other person's point of view,


which is sad really, because we're all the same under the skin. We all


have our own view points. And hopefully, we can all learn to live


in peace together. What do you say to young people who say - you


shouldn't have been allowed a vote because you're not going to be


around to live with the consequences? I'd say, a vote's a


vote for everybody. Leave it at that.


I'm ending my trip in Blackpool, with its darker underbelly behind


the promise of bright lights. 68% of people voted out in Labour


Blackpool, the highest figure in the North West. At Amazing Greys, a soup


kitchen, they offer 15,000 meals a year. Tell me why you think out was


the right vote? Erm...... Because I think it will bring a lot more jobs


back to Blackpool. You think as a result of the vote, things will get


better for people like you here? Yeah. All the jobs are being taken


before the season even starts. Is that by people who aren't from


Blackpool, you think? There's a lot of people moving into Blackpool all


the time, because they think it's like London, bright lights, big


city. It's not. We've got a new Prime Minister. She's talking about


one nation, she's appealing to people like you saying, I'm going to


think about you, when I make a decision. A lot of people don't like


her, but I think she might be pretty good actually. In this journey


across the North West, I've lost count of the number of times people


have said to me from either side of the debate that they voted with the


future in mind. In a sense, that's the thing that unites us. But it's


also something that could divide us, if the future doesn't pan out the


way each of us hopes. I'm joined now by a leading


Brexiteer, Daniel Hannon, one of the men who led the charge for Out. And


the writer and commentator Paul Mason. What we've been hearing and


Katie explored that in her film, is the number of divisions and splits,


within families, old and young, across the country, Scottish,


English, so forth. That's a lot to heal and you've got the troubles on


the left. We're not going to heal some of these divisions. The number


one unhealable division is Scotland. If I were Scottish I would vote to


leave the United Kingdom and remain in the EU. We overemphasise the


generational thing. Something that I lament is a view that common in a


place like London, is that all of this was caused by ignorance,


xenophobia etc. We cannot describe 52% of the population like that.


Even the most visceral and voting with your heart Leavism was often


very well informed. My side lost. We have to accept it. And then, we will


unite around what is the proposal. What is the proposal we're able to


get from Europe, what's the maximum amount of engagement with the single


market we can get. That is the problem, a month on, nature abhors a


vacuum, but we are no clear what that proposal may be. There may be


bright, young civil servants trying to work that out. Can you not tell


the people in here what Brexit actually looks like, because there


is no prospeck Tuesday. Before the -- prospectus. Before the campaign


we produced a million-page study on what we would like to do. The


reality is it was a close vote. We don't have a mandate to roll over


48%. That's as big a minority as you can have. You correctly say the UK


is a partner of nations. Two of the four countries voted to remain in.


We can't disregard that. The narrowness of the mandate will exert


a measure of moderation, because we need to try and find a consensus


that both sides can live with, even if without great enthusiasm. One of


the big issues of course, is that you believe passionately that


immigration wasn't an issue. Clearly your new Prime Minister does,


because the thing that she said that nobody else had said was that the


position of EU nationals in this country may be an issue and so


therefore, that is now on the table. I didn't say immigration wasn't an


issue. That is a division that may exist. People are concerned,


families, friends. The BBC did its own poll about this. 21% of Leave


voters expect a very drastic fall in numbers of EU migrants after Brexit.


11% of all voters. This was not "the" top issue. People wanted


control so that we're in charge of roughly who comes out and roughly in


what numbers. That doesn't mean zero immigration. For very bright people


in here, the word roughly is a nightmare. Because what does


"roughly" mean. You either have free movement of people or you don't.


Paul, immigration was very much an issue in the north-east of England,


Labour didn't get that one right. You may cede lots of votes to Ukip


in the future because of that. What are you going to do about the issue


of free movement? It's not a bit of it, it's either free movement or


not? That's not true. What I would do and I'm strongly pushing this, is


that we apply to be in the European Economic Area, to remain in the


single market, and we say, because in it you can have an emergency


brake on free movement. That's only a temporary variance. We say we'll


address with microeconomic policies the things that people are worried


about, give us time to do itment the challenge has to be to everybody in


politics - what is wrong with that? Tell us what you think is wrong with


that, since you all claim to be pro-migration, not anti-may grags,


not racist -- antimigration, not racist, what is wrong with seeking


temporary breathing space to get the consent for migration back. In terms


of healing divides then, you said it was a very narrow vote. It was a


vote to lever, but a narrow -- to leave, but a narrow vote. What do


you think about that model, the Norway model? Is that something that


is seriously being considered or not? First point, we're not going to


copy any other country. Throughout the campaign people kept saying are


you going to be like Norway, like Canada? The fact you put the


question like that, shows that none of those countries has an identical


model. Hang on, you haven't, nobody yet has come up with a model. What


every country in Europe has in common, all of the non-EU countries,


whether it's mass done ya, Isle of Man, all of them -- Macedonia, they


all have access to the EU market without political union. We know the


parameters within which these talks are going to happen. We want market


access. . We want democratic control. There is going to be some


free movement under this Conservative Government? No. Which


is going to deal with Conservative MPs who are very concerned about


this? We made one absolutely clear promise, we would take back control


of immigration policy. That can mean only one thing, it means that no


European Court will get to determine who can enter the UK or who can


reside in the UK. Having taken back control, it will be for the people


and their Parliamentarians to decide whether to have bilateral deals,


whether to allow people to study, take up particular job offers. That


will be for us to decide through our own democratic institutions. Paul,


when I talk about nature abhors a vacuum, revised growth figures 1. 7


next year, 1. 3, there may be a downturn that harms the very people


who voted to lever. If there's an economic downturn it harms


everybody. What I am worried about is that racist populism is out of


the bottle. Whatever Nigel Farage says now he regrets using that


image, we saw him earlier say that, racist populism is there in pubs, in


clubs. If the economy now goes down the tubes, I never bought the whole


Bank of England, treasurery kind of thing, I said this publicly, but it


may happen and what we have to do now is work together, not only to


reassure those EU migrants, but a big backlash against Muslims


happened on the street after this, who had nothing to do with EU


membership. We have to work to prevent this racist populism getting


further out of the bottle. APPLAUSE. Just a quick word on that


- on the question of arginine with EU nationals that are here already,


is that a go or not? Personally, I made it clear all the way through


that we should not put that in jeopardy. I think it is terribly


unfair to all of the British Muslims who voted Leave, to suggest that


they are lumped in with all of these racists. They were making a rational


decision. When people here were asked, what will Brexit be? Brexit


is there. Do you believe that you should put the Brexit plan to the


people? Brexit means that we end the jurisdiction of EU courts over...


They say there is not won at the moment, and there is not a model.


There is not a plan. The question is, how much they can we implement


if we want to carry the Remainers who have not accepted the result, as


we saw earlier. And we want to try and bring with us as many as


possible of that 48%, then we may have to stop short of a complete


severance, and retain many of our political, economic and diplomatic


connections with Europe, for the sake -- for the sake of keeping the


union together. Over to Evan Davis. That is actually about it for this


evening. The temperature in here tells us we are getting into the


deep summer. Journalists call it the silly season. Maybe you think it has


all been a bit mad over the non-silly season. Some of us are


yearning for a period in which biggest story is a cat stuck up a


tree. We will continue to scrutinise what happens over the next few


months. Let me thank the Royal Geographical Society for hosting us


come and also Intelligence Squared, for helping us to organise it. And


above all, to our audience. To finish, we thought we would leave


you with a short tribute to one of those careers ended, for now, since


Brexit. So it is good night from us, and it is good night from them. I


love this country and I feel honoured to have served it.


# Bye-bye, love # Bye-bye, happiness


# Hello, loneliness... That is not the outcome that I threw everything


into campaigning for. No regrets. Mr Corbyn, how can you survive?


# There goes my baby... Stepping aside. Resigned. Resigning today.


# Bye-bye, sweet caress... What I am saying today is, I want my life


back. And it begins right now. Thank you.


It sparked the greatest transformation in British history.


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