22/07/2016 Newsnight


22/07/2016

Another act of terror hits Europe as a shopping centre in Munich is attacked by multiple gunmen, and Emily Maitlis reports from the Republican National Convention.


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Transcript


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A shopping centre in Munich is targeted by up to three attackers

:00:00.:00:10.

leaving at least eight dead and many more injured.

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TRANSLATION: There are many badly injured, our crisis team is

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taking care of about 100 people and all the police forces

:00:18.:00:20.

Police are still hunting the attackers as hundreds of people

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are stranded by a public transport shutdown in the city.

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It's still a developing situation, but the German police say they're

:00:33.:00:35.

And we're at the Republican National Convention,

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gauging the reaction to Trump's vision for his presidency

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and his plan to take the fight to Hillary.

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The most important difference between our plan and that of our

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opponent is that our plan will put America first. CHEERING

:00:56.:01:08.

Abject and bloody terror has been visited upon another European city

:01:09.:01:12.

tonight and its perpetrators are still at large in Munich.

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Local police report that eight people were killed

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and many more severely injured after up to three gunmen

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opened fire at a shopping centre in the German city's Moosach

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district just over six and a half hours ago.

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Public transport has been suspended, citizens have been advised to stay

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indoors and the authorities have described an acute

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A gunman opens fire on a Munich street just before 4pm this

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afternoon. GUNFIRE People around the area fleet, as

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there's more shop inside the Olympia shopping centre just across the

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road. -- more shots. It is in the north-west of Munich. Eyewitnesses

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in the shopping centre described the scene. TRANSLATION: My wife and

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daughter are missing. I was inside the shopping centre that my wife

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wasn't with me. I still have stuff to do and she wanted to go to

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another shop. I said, go ahead, with my daughter, and I will, to you

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afterwards. I saw people running out with them and I asked what is going

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on, no one had a clue. Only one man said there is a man with a gun he

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was shooting other people. The situation is still very unclear and

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developing but police say there are at least eight casualties with up to

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three gunmen involved and still on the run.

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TRANSLATION: There are many badly injured, our crisis team is taking

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care of about 100 people and all the police forces are busy with the

:02:57.:02:57.

manhunt. It's the panic there were reports of

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shootings elsewhere in this city although they now appear not to be

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correct. Police have told people to stay indoors. Metro and bus services

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have been stopped and the area around the shopping more has been

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blocked off by police. Other videos of the attack at or attackers have

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also appeared. Here, one walks around a car park roof with a

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handgun. In an extraordinary exchange with an onlooker, he

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apparently insults Turks and says, "I am German". Could this be a clue

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to his motives? An attack by far right extremists on the fifth

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anniversary of the attack by Anders Breivik in Norway. Police have said

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they are treating it as suspected terrorism, but we don't know any

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more. The idea of taking a gun and shooting in a public location is

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something we have seen repeatedly being used by groups with also sub

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ideology is. We recently saw a spree shooting in a nightclub. Anders

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Breivik used guns to kill lots of people. It is something we have seen

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different ideologies using. It is a basic fundamental ideology, get a

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gun and shoots lots of people. If you have a gun you can kill quite a

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few people and have a high impact. Earlier this week Germany

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experienced its first Isis related attack when a teenage refugee armed

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with an axe targeted passengers on a train. Another possibility is that

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today buzz events are the latest in a series of jihadi attacks in Europe

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-- today's events. Whatever the motive, if it is at all political

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comment could have a far-reaching impact in Germany. Tonight, though,

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the search for those responsible still continues.

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Well Andrew Plant can now join us from Munich.

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Good evening. What is the very latest situation?

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A lot of confusion here when we landed

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because, obviously, most people are coming here just to try to get

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back to their homes, but told they can't

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get their normal buses and taxis into the city

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centre, because so many roads are closed.

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It shows you the lockdown Munich city centre is in right now.

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The latest, as we understand it, here on the manhunt is this:

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Eyewitnesses are saying there were three men with guns.

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There are reports that one of those men has died.

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Police haven't confirmed that, but they have

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Possibly three men on the run right now. Metro quickly evacuated because

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one person had said the gunmen had gone underground. Quickly evacuated

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and searched, no reports of any arrest. We have heard that police

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are being drafted in from Austria. We are only about 50 miles away here

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from the German-Austrian border. We also know that German

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officials have said so they are beefing up

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their border security. That shows you the scale of the

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manhunt is not just in Munich but potentially over a much wider area.

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What is the mood amongst all very people? You mentioned the lockdown

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and confusion that many of the streets will be deserted, of course.

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Track but many. Munich police have used social media

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to their benefit. In the first hour or so they used social media to ask

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people not to share pictures of the attack but they also used it to get

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a wide message out to a lot of people very quickly. They said,

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please stay away from the streets of Munich. If you are at home, stay at

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home, don't come outside until we know what the situation is. They use

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it to contact local taxi drivers, not to pick up fares and bring them

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into the city centre. One more thing going on, to help people who are in

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Munich perhaps stranded and not sure where to go to take shelter. People

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had been tweeting with the hashtag open door. If you are stuck and

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don't know where to go, you can look on twitter, find someone who has

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been tweeting that hashtag. There are lots of them out there right

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now, you can go to their home and they will give you sang tree until

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people know what is going on right now. Thank you.

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Our Diplomatic Editor Mark Urban is here in the studio.

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As we have heard, it is a fast moving and incredibly fluid

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situation in Munich. What are the challenges the police are facing in

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getting inaccurate picture of what has happened and ideally, of course,

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catching the people responsible? -- an accurate. We have seen this from

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a number of incidents, echo chamber of social media and people reporting

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things, some distortion, perhaps, as to what we are actually looking at.

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Are there multiple shooters, really? We saw this report in Dallas when it

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happened a couple of weeks ago. It turned out to be one. Long firearms,

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rifle type weapons? I very much doubt it. Bubbly people seeing

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plainclothes police getting involved. Arch probably people. At

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the last few hours, no reports of gunshots -- probably people. The

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police have suggested that the ninth person they found dead may well be

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the gunmen in Black, who we saw in that film. One has to ask, were

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there ever another one or two? If there were, given the absence of any

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ongoing incidents in the last hour or two, it is possible they had

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escaped but equally possible and looking increasingly likely, that

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this is a lone gunmen who may now have taken his own life. You

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mentioned the other incidents we have seen in the continent on the

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last few weeks and months. We don't know that much about the German

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authorities's capacity to cope. Does it differ from the French, for

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example? It would be fair to say that when you talk to the British

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people, military and police who might be involved in this, they look

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with some envy at the capabilities that those two countries can deploy.

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If we look at the situation in Germany, for example, to night, I

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can see officers from the special armed unit of the city police and

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also a special unit commander SEK, almost like SAS assault forced

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deployed by the state police and they were there incredibly quickly

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at that shopping centre. It is an impressive response. The analogous

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place would be Manchester or Glasgow. You talk to the police and

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there is a pretty small number of specialist firearms officers on duty

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even in those large British cities on the average day. It is a very

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extensive response the Germans can bring. Also some other resources

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coming in, GS, G nine, national SAS type unit is also on its way down to

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Munich. If there are the people are at large, they will probably run

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them to ground quite quickly. Thank you very much.

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Joining me via Skype from Berlin is Yassin Musharbash,

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terrorism analyst for the German national weekly paper, Die Zeit.

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Many thanks for your time. We have heard some speculation that it may

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be a Lone Wolf attacker with perhaps no affiliations. The alternative, of

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course, it even recent events in Nice and elsewhere is that there

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will be an Islamist subtext to this attack, tell us a bit about the

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situation in Germany. With regard to the fear of Islamist terrorism. The

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fear is large. Only a couple of days ago we witnessed a terror attack in

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Germany. The first one, as a matter of fact, that was claimed by the

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Islamic State. This was on the train? Exactly. Everybody here was

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on high alert already. As the news broke, after the shooting incident

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in Munich, I believe what most people assumed immediately was that

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this is most likely get hardest attack. -- jihadist. As your

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correspondence that, we do not know. It is too early to say at this

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moment. All options are still on the table. Ranging from a single shooter

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to a jihadist cell of three people, some of whom may perhaps still be on

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the run, we don't know yet. Of course. Tell me a bit about the

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atmosphere in Germany and specifically in Munich. We know

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Angela Merkel's decision to invite 1 million refugees into the country

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has been politically, one might say, controversial. Others would describe

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it as a toxic environment. One in which people have been fearing the

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worst? Well, Munich was... The city in Germany where most of the

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refugees poured into the country, last year. Most of the pictures that

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made their way around the world of German helpers welcoming refugees

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were actually filmed in Munich. There is a reason we call Munich the

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city of hearts in Germany. It is quite possible that this

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reputation that the city holds is something that a jihadist cell would

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like to attack and undermine. It is also quite clear that if this turns

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out to be a jihadist attack, it will change public and political debate

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in Germany quite profoundly. But, again, we do not know yet, we will

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have to wait. I appreciate you are repeatedly stressing that. It can't

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be reiterated often enough. Let's just contemplate, momentarily, the

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opposite possibility. The possibility that it is perhaps

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somebody inspired by the anti-Islamist, anti-refugee feeling.

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That there has been an upsurge in that sentiment in Germany as well.

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They're absolutely has been. But it hasn't taken on terrorist forms yet.

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That would be something completely new as well. We have to be reminded

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that today is the fifth anniversary of the Anders Breivik attack and

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jihadists think in dates like this. We did not know if right-wing

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terrorists do, maybe they will and have started today the is another

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option. That we are talking about a disturbed individual. Dutchman there

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is another. The footage that was already alluded to in your report,

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the footage that was shot most likely at the very beginning of this

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whole attack was a very confusing dialogue with an onlooker. I think

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it may point towards an attacker with mental issues. That is a third

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option. At this point we have no indication of a political background

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but we just don't have it. The terror level, presumably, has been

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at the highest possible since that type in Wurzburg? -- that attack.

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All of Germany has been in high alert. That is properly why the

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police in Munich was able to react in the way they did, which is

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commendable. Including that use of social media. Thank you.

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To America now, where Emily Maitlis has spent much of this week watching

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the Republican party formally endorse Donald Trump's

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It has been, it's fair to say, a most unconventional Convention.

:13:47.:13:53.

It was an angry speech here in Cleveland last night,

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from a man laying out a quasi-apocalyptic vision of the

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country America had become, the violence, the terrorism, the

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low-paid jobs and the lack of self-esteem.

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He called himself the candidate of law and order.

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He invoked some of Nixon's 1968 campaign against that

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There were great cheers, every time he mentioned blue lives.

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He thanked the police to loud applause when, at one point, they

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bundled out a protest, trying to interrupted him.

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He had an enthusiasm in his voice for

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something not a million miles away from a police state.

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What this was not, though, was a traditional Republican

:14:32.:14:33.

There was no mention of abortion or gun rights.

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Or of the Constitution or of amendments.

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He, at one point, even tiptoed on LGBT issues to the

:14:43.:14:47.

surprise, perhaps shock of many in the hall.

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No, this is a man who knows he's turned his own party upside

:14:51.:14:53.

down and now wants to make a pitch invasion on the Democrat's party.

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The stage was set for a night Stars Stripes American optimism. But the

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American nightmare is replaced in American dream. Libya is in ruins,

:15:13.:15:23.

and our ambassador and his staff were left helpless to die at the

:15:24.:15:28.

hands of savage killers. This is the legacy of Hillary Clinton - death,

:15:29.:15:37.

destruction, terrorism and weakness. He told them, shouting at times, the

:15:38.:15:46.

solution was forced, blocking migrants, restoring law and order,

:15:47.:15:52.

and this old favourite, the war. -- the wall.

:15:53.:16:04.

He is a military man when he is talking about building a wall. What

:16:05.:16:12.

is the matter with building a wall? I visited the Vatican and it has a

:16:13.:16:21.

wall around it. Why? This speech sought not to reassure but to anger.

:16:22.:16:28.

He also appealed to Bernie Sanders supporters worried about losing

:16:29.:16:33.

their jobs overseas. I don't want to diminish our freedom and

:16:34.:16:38.

independence. We will never, ever sign bad trade deals. America,

:16:39.:16:51.

first, again. America first! I am sure they will listen to his speech

:16:52.:16:54.

with interest and make a judgment on it. It is hard to reconcile a speech

:16:55.:17:01.

on law and order and immigration with Bernie Sanders supporters. All

:17:02.:17:08.

those Bernie Sanders supporters were not socialists. Many were just

:17:09.:17:12.

people who were angry with what was going on. The most memorable slogans

:17:13.:17:15.

have been the ones aimed at Clinton. Last night, Donald Trump

:17:16.:17:24.

reached above the name-calling to insist

:17:25.:17:26.

to the crowd, let's beat her. I think Americans know the choice

:17:27.:17:29.

is between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump

:17:30.:17:31.

and they will go with Donald Trump. They want somebody who can

:17:32.:17:33.

shake up Washington. And Washington, this time,

:17:34.:17:35.

means another Clinton. The baton passes to Philadelphia,

:17:36.:17:37.

next week, when their presidential candidate has to turn her own

:17:38.:17:39.

convention into something I am joined by the former speech

:17:40.:18:01.

writer for George W Bush, and from Los Angeles by Charlotte laws.

:18:02.:18:08.

Peter, I will begin with you, if I may. It is traditionally quite a

:18:09.:18:13.

cheerful occasion, the convention, not necessarily an adjective you

:18:14.:18:17.

would apply to the last few days. That's right. This was the longest

:18:18.:18:20.

and darkest convention speech we have ever seen. The America that

:18:21.:18:27.

Donald Trump was describing was dystopian - dark, dreary, broken and

:18:28.:18:33.

bleeding, almost beyond repair. It was quite extraordinary. It fits his

:18:34.:18:36.

personality, and I think his premises that things are so -- his

:18:37.:18:43.

premise is that things are so bleak that only Donald Trump can fix what

:18:44.:18:46.

is wrong with America. He is incapable of fixing the problems we

:18:47.:18:50.

have, but I think his description of America is so out of touch with

:18:51.:18:54.

America that it won't work. There are problems in the country, but

:18:55.:18:57.

they are discreet and they can be solved. Hillary Clinton and the

:18:58.:19:02.

Democrats will drive a truck through the holes he left in the Cleveland

:19:03.:19:07.

speech. Why was your role was not their? Because Donald Trump is

:19:08.:19:13.

antithetical to a lot of what George W Bush believed in. It is

:19:14.:19:17.

antithetical to a lot of what Ronald Reagan believed in. He is not a

:19:18.:19:26.

conservative, hardly even a Republican, and he is redefining the

:19:27.:19:30.

party in ways that a lot of us think of as dangerous and pernicious. He

:19:31.:19:34.

is a threat to the Republican Party, and I think that was clear from his

:19:35.:19:39.

speech, but it has been clear from what he has been saying and how he

:19:40.:19:46.

has been conducting himself. We have never seen anything like him, and I

:19:47.:19:51.

hope we don't again. Charlotte, you are shaking your head. Do you

:19:52.:19:57.

recognise this description of America as being cowed and close to

:19:58.:20:03.

dystopia? Absolutely. People in this country, many of them, believe that

:20:04.:20:07.

Donald Trump is talking about the situation as it is. People are

:20:08.:20:11.

fearful and realise there is a gap between the rich and poor, they

:20:12.:20:15.

realise corporations are in control and the elite. He is an outsider. We

:20:16.:20:19.

are happy that the Bush family did not speech at the convention,

:20:20.:20:23.

because that would have made it an establishment convention. His speech

:20:24.:20:28.

was a balance between toughness and compassion. I don't agree that it

:20:29.:20:35.

was all dark and dreary. It was inspirational, and if you look at

:20:36.:20:39.

the end section, you will see how it was inspirational and how he got the

:20:40.:20:43.

crowd revved up, so I don't agree with that description. Never is one

:20:44.:20:48.

person who agrees with your analysis. I think he used the word

:20:49.:20:56.

overjoyed to describe it, the leader of the Ku Klux Klan. What does he

:20:57.:21:00.

see an Donald Trump that feels his heart with joy? He released a

:21:01.:21:07.

statement along the lines of, I am happy with Donald Trump for

:21:08.:21:12.

championing my causes. I am not sure that David Duke supports Donald

:21:13.:21:16.

Trump. I believe he supports Hillary Clinton. It is unfair to make that

:21:17.:21:20.

comment. He is running for the Senate, and he said yesterday that

:21:21.:21:26.

he was overjoyed to see Donald Trump championing the causes that he has

:21:27.:21:30.

spent his whole life pursuing. It is unequivocal. I wonder what you think

:21:31.:21:36.

he sees in Donald Trump that appeals to a textbook white supremacist will

:21:37.:21:42.

stop I am part of the animal rights community in Los Angeles, and most

:21:43.:21:47.

of the ones that I know support Donald Trump. I understand that, but

:21:48.:21:55.

I am more interested in what this man sees in Donald Trump. Why is he

:21:56.:22:03.

overjoyed? I have no idea, but I know a lot of people who are

:22:04.:22:07.

overjoyed by Trump who are on the left. You might want to ask the same

:22:08.:22:11.

question about them. I think it is an unfair question, because you are

:22:12.:22:16.

singling out one person who likes Trump when there are lots of people,

:22:17.:22:20.

liberals and Bernie Sanders supporters, who support Trump. It is

:22:21.:22:24.

unfair to try to equate Trump with racism. I wonder why he appeals to

:22:25.:22:32.

such a prominent racist, but if you don't know, that's fine. Peter, when

:22:33.:22:37.

we hear that the Bernie Sanders contingent will be crucial to Mr

:22:38.:22:45.

Trump's chances of moving beyond the base, what buttons will he be trying

:22:46.:22:48.

to push among the non-traditional Republican voters? Trade, the button

:22:49.:22:55.

he pushed all night and the button he has been pushing since he got

:22:56.:23:02.

into the campaign. His bet is that by being a protectionist, and is he

:23:03.:23:07.

-- and he is as fierce a protectionist as we are likely to

:23:08.:23:11.

see, that is what he thinks is his way into those photos. The Sanders

:23:12.:23:22.

voters are really at odds with him. They find Mr Trump repellent. Who

:23:23.:23:31.

will you vote for? I don't know yet. I won't vote for Mr Trump under any

:23:32.:23:35.

conditions, for the reasons I sketched out. I think he is

:23:36.:23:40.

dangerous, erratic, unstable. I think he has a personality disorder,

:23:41.:23:44.

and I think he is unprincipled and would be a threat to the country. I

:23:45.:23:48.

think he is also a threat to the Republican Party. Both are things

:23:49.:23:53.

that I care about, the country and the party. I am not inclined to vote

:23:54.:23:57.

for Mrs Clinton because I am a conservative and she is a liberal.

:23:58.:24:01.

She stands for everything I have stood against in my life. That would

:24:02.:24:07.

be a difficult vote. I may not vote. I will have to see. I will cross

:24:08.:24:12.

that bridge when the 7th of November comes around, the day before the

:24:13.:24:17.

election. I am quite certain I will not vote for Donald Trump. There is

:24:18.:24:22.

a third point of this triangle, albeit a less prominent one. Gary

:24:23.:24:27.

Johnson, the Libertarian candidate. Jeb Bush, your former boss's

:24:28.:24:39.

brother, might support him. I am not a libertarian, I am a Conservative.

:24:40.:24:44.

I have some sympathy for libertarian views, but not a lot. There is a big

:24:45.:24:49.

difference between being a Conservative and a libertarian. My

:24:50.:24:53.

inclination is I will probably vote for someone else on the right. Ben

:24:54.:24:58.

Sass is a senator from Nebraska, very principled and intelligent. He

:24:59.:25:04.

has been a critic of Trump, and very principled about that. We will see.

:25:05.:25:08.

My vote will not make a difference, but you know, people do, as Ted Cruz

:25:09.:25:15.

said, have to vote with their conscience. Charlotte, I think we

:25:16.:25:20.

know how you will cast your vote. Many thanks for your time this

:25:21.:25:25.

evening, and to Peter. Back in Britain.

:25:26.:25:27.

He was one of the big beasts of Brexit but,

:25:28.:25:29.

with victory secured, Iain Duncan Smith has found himself

:25:30.:25:31.

banished to the back benches by Theresa May.

:25:32.:25:33.

A month on from the referendum result, today seemed an opportune

:25:34.:25:36.

moment to find out what the former Work and Pensions Secretary

:25:37.:25:39.

So when I interviewed him earlier today I began by asking

:25:40.:25:43.

whether he was disappointed he was less front and centre

:25:44.:25:48.

than Boris Johnson and Michael Gove when the results of

:25:49.:25:50.

In my view, it's always been on this, 24 years ago, when I voted

:25:51.:25:56.

against Maastricht I actually was not for the UK

:25:57.:26:00.

leaving the European Union, I believed it

:26:01.:26:04.

Over the years, as I've seen more treaties go through, I

:26:05.:26:09.

The main point I would make about this

:26:10.:26:13.

I was involved a lot in the debate and I

:26:14.:26:16.

don't have any personal prejudice in terms of wanting myself to be front

:26:17.:26:20.

and centre on this, never had really.

:26:21.:26:21.

I know you have spoken about the ?350 million pledge that wasn't

:26:22.:26:26.

There are a few other areas where perhaps people might

:26:27.:26:29.

Well, to be fair, you could probably argue

:26:30.:26:35.

both sides of the case there were lots of different types of stories.

:26:36.:26:38.

There was a wonderful story how all families would be ?4,300

:26:39.:26:41.

The point is, on balance, I don't think people actually made

:26:42.:26:46.

their decision on elements like that.

:26:47.:26:51.

I think what they made their

:26:52.:26:52.

decision on was, on the basis, did they feel instinctively

:26:53.:26:55.

that the UK was better off out for them.

:26:56.:26:57.

Are you more comfortable today about the fact

:26:58.:26:59.

that the country is being controlled by a Remainer?

:27:00.:27:04.

We are a Conservative Government, we had four more years to run...

:27:05.:27:12.

You were pretty clear that you wanted a Brexiteer in the big job.

:27:13.:27:16.

I wanted to leave but that slightly went south

:27:17.:27:18.

when Mr Gove and Mr Johnson didn't quite get their act together.

:27:19.:27:21.

I was public in saying that I thought if they were together,

:27:22.:27:26.

My sense about this, though, is that Theresa May,

:27:27.:27:31.

I have known her for a long time, I have worked with her in

:27:32.:27:34.

Cabinet, I know if she gives her word on something, she will keep it.

:27:35.:27:38.

They will get on with it now and we will

:27:39.:27:44.

I sense, and perhaps I'm wrong, you would be

:27:45.:27:48.

rather more keen to be involved in these processes and negotiations.

:27:49.:27:50.

Yes I am, as a member of Parliament, I have a view and I will make that

:27:51.:27:56.

By the way, I don't regret that I'm not in government,

:27:57.:28:01.

I resigned back in March, for different reasons.

:28:02.:28:03.

I was in no hurry to get back in government.

:28:04.:28:05.

I've got a lot I want to get on with.

:28:06.:28:08.

I'm going back to the Centre for Social

:28:09.:28:10.

Justice and I want to get on with other things,

:28:11.:28:12.

David Davis has got your job, hasn't he?

:28:13.:28:16.

I wish him the best of luck. I'm an old friend of David's.

:28:17.:28:20.

Liam Fox? No, no.

:28:21.:28:21.

You have to acknowledge that had your candidate for the

:28:22.:28:24.

leadership, Andrea Leadsom, succeded, you would have

:28:25.:28:25.

expected to be at the top table?

:28:26.:28:27.

Even so, I wasn't really asking for a job.

:28:28.:28:29.

My point was I wanted to get the right people in place.

:28:30.:28:32.

Is Boris Johnson the right person to be Foreign Secretary?

:28:33.:28:35.

Now you have a very different setup, because

:28:36.:28:39.

The European stuff is now in another department

:28:40.:28:43.

and the trade stuff is carved off into a Trade Department,

:28:44.:28:45.

All of that means that Boris has a job to

:28:46.:28:50.

do, to tell the world, this is an important factor,

:28:51.:28:52.

to tell the world that actually, Britain is open for

:28:53.:28:54.

business and Britain is a country that has always managed through

:28:55.:28:57.

difficult times and good times and will continue to do so.

:28:58.:29:00.

Actually, the funny thing about Boris, he is

:29:01.:29:01.

pretty good at doing that kind of stuff.

:29:02.:29:03.

To steer you back to the new Prime Minister and the notion of

:29:04.:29:09.

mandate and the notion of wanting, by your own admission,

:29:10.:29:12.

a Brexit leader and not getting one, does she have a mandate

:29:13.:29:14.

She has stood for an election to lead the Conservative Party and

:29:15.:29:23.

the leader of the Conservative Party de facto has a right to claim

:29:24.:29:28.

The country has asked that Britain leaves the European Union.

:29:29.:29:37.

She has said we will now act on that.

:29:38.:29:39.

It is a very simple statement and a very simple

:29:40.:29:41.

comment from her that she is going to do that.

:29:42.:29:44.

Any sympathy for Messrs Cameron and Osborne?

:29:45.:29:47.

It's a tough job being in government.

:29:48.:29:48.

It's particular tough being Prime Minister.

:29:49.:29:50.

I've worked very closely with the Prime Minister for six years.

:29:51.:29:52.

You weren't so close to the Chancellor, were you?

:29:53.:29:54.

We didn't always see eye to eye, to be fair.

:29:55.:30:02.

At the end, we had a chain of disagreements,

:30:03.:30:06.

which culminated in my resigning from the government.

:30:07.:30:07.

Have you spoken to either of them since resigning?

:30:08.:30:10.

I have, since then. Which one?

:30:11.:30:12.

I wouldn't say they were hugely long conversations,

:30:13.:30:17.

Now, just time to remind you that Newsnight is on Saturday this week,

:30:18.:30:25.

and we're so excited we made a montage about it.

:30:26.:30:38.

It is on BBC Two tomorrow. Coming up next, the award-winning Scottish

:30:39.:30:46.

crime writer Val McDermid looks at the relationship between fiction,

:30:47.:30:50.

video

:30:51.:30:55.

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