02/09/2016 Newsnight


02/09/2016

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Junior doctors come under pressure to abandon their plans to strike.

:00:00.:00:07.

Will they go ahead despite criticism from within their own profession?

:00:08.:00:11.

CHANTING: Hunt must go!

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And has their union - the BMA - mishandled the whole thing?

:00:15.:00:20.

I'm going on strike because I feel I don't have any choice.

:00:21.:00:23.

The government aren't listening to us.

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They are trying to impose a contract on us that stretches us from five

:00:27.:00:29.

days to seven, when we are already struggling with five.

:00:30.:00:31.

We have an ageing population, posing a demographic bomb

:00:32.:00:34.

Also tonight, Brexit makes Europe weaker -

:00:35.:00:41.

a rare intervention from Russia as the Deputy PM tells Newsnight

:00:42.:00:44.

what the Kremlin really thinks about Britain's vote to leave.

:00:45.:00:47.

Britain's decision to leave Europe makes Europe a little weaker.

:00:48.:00:51.

Individual countries cannot affect international politics

:00:52.:00:55.

in the same way that a united Europe can do.

:00:56.:01:00.

And Georgetown University announces preferential admissions policies

:01:01.:01:04.

to help those descended from the slaves that it used to trade.

:01:05.:01:07.

Is this the right way to redress the ills of history?

:01:08.:01:11.

Until now, the consensus within the medical community has

:01:12.:01:25.

been staunchly behind the junior doctors.

:01:26.:01:29.

Today, that support is starting to show cracks.

:01:30.:01:31.

English junior doctors and their representatives

:01:32.:01:35.

are coming under increasing pressure to drop their five day strike -

:01:36.:01:38.

for four consecutive months - a level of industrial action

:01:39.:01:40.

that NHS England is calling "unprecedented" in its history.

:01:41.:01:45.

The government has warned it will risk lives, but it is

:01:46.:01:47.

the more measured criticism from within their own medical profession

:01:48.:01:50.

So has the British Medical Association mishandled this action -

:01:51.:01:56.

both in misjudging the mood, and in the strategy

:01:57.:02:01.

After have few months away from the picket line, the doctors union will

:02:02.:02:17.

soon return. The junior doctors industrial action has been expanded

:02:18.:02:23.

and extended. They've been on strike before but the junior doctors have

:02:24.:02:27.

never been in such conflict with the government. We don't want to take

:02:28.:02:33.

industrial action at all. All this will take is the government saying

:02:34.:02:38.

to us, we will stop the imposition. We are not going to force a contract

:02:39.:02:44.

on junior doctors. The government is putting patients first, the BMA

:02:45.:02:49.

should be doing that and not playing politics. How did we get here? The

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British Medical Association and the government cut a deal earlier this

:02:57.:03:00.

year. That was put to the BMA members in a referendum but they

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rejected it. Government imposed at contract anyway. As a consequence,

:03:07.:03:12.

the BMA has gone on strike again. This time, not for one or two days

:03:13.:03:17.

at a time but for five comp leak days in working hours at a stretch.

:03:18.:03:25.

-- complete days. The junior doctors are preparing to give up a lot to

:03:26.:03:31.

signal their seriousness about this contract being imposed. The

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government are trying to impose a contract that stretches as from five

:03:37.:03:41.

days to seven while we are already struggling with five. We are facing

:03:42.:03:47.

a demographic bomb exploding all around is. There are gaps in

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hospitals. Units closing in Oxfordshire today because there

:03:53.:03:55.

aren't enough doctors to stop them. This isn't the time to stretch

:03:56.:04:04.

elective services to seven days. A striking aspect of this has been

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discussion in other trade unions about the striking air BMA. On some

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issues there was a bitter division. The question on whether BMA members

:04:16.:04:20.

were shrewd to reject the contract. Some from the radical left union

:04:21.:04:25.

said they thought it was a good idea because the government will have to

:04:26.:04:28.

make a much better off if it is to win over members. They thought it

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would stop chumminess between the BMA and the government. The majority

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of union officials however thought it was a disaster. They thought it

:04:39.:04:44.

meant that the BMA's leadership were cut off at the knees and that their

:04:45.:04:48.

leadership couldn't speak for their members. The BMA is also in the

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awkward position of striking to a pose a contract that was agreed by

:04:59.:05:05.

its managers months ago. We have agreed a contract that is fair for

:05:06.:05:08.

junior doctors and its values them as part of the workforce. I don't

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think the union has changed its mind. The members have decided that

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they don't accept this contract, 58% of as, that is in contradiction to

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some members of the executive committee googled it was a good

:05:25.:05:29.

contract stop the majority don't and the union is representing as as it

:05:30.:05:35.

should. The BMA has an unusual structure as a union and it puts a

:05:36.:05:39.

lot of responsibility in the hands of inexperienced union officials.

:05:40.:05:47.

You can see that in context of leaks from the union. Union leaders were

:05:48.:05:55.

shocked at an apparent lack of strategy but union leaders in the

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BMA will have to be skilful to avoid conflict from members. They are

:06:04.:06:11.

likely to losing, and patients will end up waiting longer so they have

:06:12.:06:15.

the opportunity to fail on both of their targets. They could then lose

:06:16.:06:19.

a lot of money which given that their finances are on a knife edge

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will see hospitals running into further difficulty as a consequence

:06:24.:06:30.

of the strike. For all that, the Department of Health sounded unfazed

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at the BMA's new plans. Right now, there is no sign of peace.

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We asked to speak to the BMA and the government tonight

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to respond to the criticisms made, but they were unavailable.

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Joining me now, Junior Doctor Rachel Clark who's been a vocal

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Thanks for coming in. A lot of people understand that there are

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junior doctors, medics, who have frankly been pushed

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to medics, the end of their tether and are being forced to reach

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for the nuclear option. But fundamentally its quite hard

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for you to explain to the public this change of heart

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when you seemed so close to a deal. to some extent I absolutely agree

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with that. How do we as doctors forsake our patients for five days

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at a stretch? I know that every day I went on strike in the preceding

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year I cried on my way to the baguette line, I felt guilty, it was

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something I absolutely didn't want to do. Ashya macro picket line.

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Every doctor is going to go through that. This goes against the grain of

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our work ethic. When questioning the proportionality of age dry, I think

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you have to do that in the context of assessing the potential harm of

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the strike. -- assessing a strike. You have to assess that against the

:08:02.:08:08.

harm of the action you are trying to avoid. It's understandable but a

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slightly different point to the one I have made. It is very hard to turn

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to the public and say that we were close to that deal but were not

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going to go with that now because of reasons that we could have made six

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months earlier. That rests on a fundamental misunderstanding of this

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dispute. There has been a year of negotiation and you are right, in

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that interview, one of my BMA representatives thought it was a

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good deal. I never thought that was a good deal and nor did I great many

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of my fellow doctors. You were prepared to support it at one point?

:08:52.:08:58.

It is one thing to think it is the best of a bad series of options on

:08:59.:09:04.

the table. That is not the same as supporting it. But you would have

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voted yes and we have heard that many thought it was safe for

:09:13.:09:18.

doctors, say for the workforce and patients. Why has the mindset

:09:19.:09:26.

changed? For the last year, the BMA has sought to negotiate a new

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contract that will deliver a seven-day NHS, cost neutrally. This

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stipulation of the government was that the contract must be cost

:09:38.:09:41.

neutral and delivered these fantastic new services that we

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support and are committed to at the weekend. In the absence of funds and

:09:46.:09:51.

staff. We know that not only do junior doctors feel deeply anxious

:09:52.:09:55.

about the idea that we can be stretched more thinly and still be

:09:56.:09:59.

safe at the weekend, we know that Jeremy Hunt's own officials shared

:10:00.:10:05.

that queasiness, through leaked internal documents, their own risk

:10:06.:10:09.

assessments, a five out of five severity risk of that there aren't

:10:10.:10:14.

enough staff. Do you think that the BMA screwed this up for all of you?

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I don't. I wish that BMA had called out the government on the

:10:23.:10:27.

ludicrousness of... They spent eight days at ACAS negotiating with the

:10:28.:10:33.

government and we are now back with an unprecedented strike. Why would

:10:34.:10:37.

the government trust any new negotiation at this point when the

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last one was renege? This is the democratic process. The BMA may have

:10:46.:10:48.

delivered what they thought was the best deal on the table they are out

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of step with their members? Indeed. Jeremy Hunt has portrayed the BMA as

:10:56.:11:02.

radicals, militants leading us into a dreadful fight that we were too

:11:03.:11:10.

misguided to recognise? They weren't hardline enough for you? Far from

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it. What I object to is the political gameplaying, Theresa May

:11:17.:11:21.

is wholly wrong when she says doctors are playing games, it is the

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political gameplaying of presenting the electorate with an unfunded

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sound bite and pretending it is a policy. Nobody gets something for

:11:30.:11:34.

nothing and we know that and that is why we have public support. The

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public knows that if the government were genuinely committed to safer

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weekends, they would fund and stuff them. In Oxfordshire, my local

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hospital, a District General Hospital in Banbury has just closed

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its entire maternity services because they don't have enough

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junior doctors. Do you think you can win this or will it turn into

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something akin to the miners strike, as one doctor described it to me

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tonight? We have to do everything humanly possible to prevent the

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strike and I think that if Jeremy Hunt had any shred of commitment to

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patients, literally, all he needs to do is pause in position. He could

:12:16.:12:21.

have a pause. He is not giving up on the seven-day NHS and losing face,

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simply saying that we must come together with patients and pause

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this. That is all he needs to do. Then the strike goes away. Why he is

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not doing that, I simply can't understand. Doctor Clark, thank you

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for coming in. Russia's Deputy Prime minister

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has told this programme that Brexit has weakened Europe and created

:12:43.:12:45.

new uncertainties about its future. In a rare interview,

:12:46.:12:47.

Arkady Dvorkovich - who oversees economic

:12:48.:12:48.

policy for the Kremlin - has confounded what many believed

:12:49.:12:51.

to be the view of Russia, telling Newsnight that it was more

:12:52.:12:53.

important for Europe to be strong - and that Britain's referendum

:12:54.:12:56.

decision has hurt Europe. He also refuted the idea

:12:57.:12:59.

that President Putin was rooting for Brexit as a way

:13:00.:13:01.

of undermining European unity. He was speaking to Mark Urban

:13:02.:13:04.

at The European House - Ambrosetti Forum

:13:05.:13:07.

at Villa d'Este in Italy. For Russia it's important

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that Europe is strong, we don't need weak partners,

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we need strong partners to go forward and provide

:13:14.:13:18.

for a better future for Russian The British, the decision to leave

:13:19.:13:20.

Europe, may make Europe The whole process of getting away

:13:21.:13:28.

from Europe is a difficult one, increases more uncertainties

:13:29.:13:35.

from point A to point B. Strong politics makes Europe really

:13:36.:13:40.

a big player in the international landscape, and individual countries

:13:41.:13:45.

cannot affect international politics in the same way that Europe,

:13:46.:13:48.

a united Europe can do. There was a narrative

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during the campaign in Britain that Russia wanted Britain

:13:54.:13:56.

to leave the EU. That Mr Putin wants disunity,

:13:57.:13:59.

that if Britain leaves, the case for sanctions

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against Russia is weakened. First, we do not have any particular

:14:03.:14:05.

opinion whether UK should stay It's a sovereign affair

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of the United Kingdom and the rest of Europe,

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and Russia is not a player The second thing, the sanctions

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are not because of British politics. Mostly it's the influence

:14:27.:14:33.

of the United States, and overall attitude of European

:14:34.:14:38.

governments towards events around Even if it is the wrong attitude,

:14:39.:14:42.

it's a mistake, it's counter-productive and brings big

:14:43.:14:49.

losses to all parties in this game, but we do not believe that any

:14:50.:14:53.

political process in Europe There has been a little bit

:14:54.:14:58.

of discussion around our Foreign Ministry about a reset,

:14:59.:15:11.

or a chance to have a different type Perhaps an intensified

:15:12.:15:14.

trading relationship... Let's see how it goes, we are open,

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we are ready at any point in time. I'm personally co-chairing

:15:18.:15:20.

the Russian-British energy dialogue. It is frozen for the moment,

:15:21.:15:23.

but our President Putin will see the British Prime Minister

:15:24.:15:28.

at the G20 forum in China, and hopefully they will agree

:15:29.:15:34.

to restore some of the things I've seen estimates that Russia's

:15:35.:15:38.

economy contracted by 3.7% in 2015. There is an impact of sanctions,

:15:39.:15:46.

I think you would agree, but now it would seem

:15:47.:15:54.

that the discussion in mid-September in the EU will be for renewing

:15:55.:15:57.

sanctions on Russia. Does that disappoint you,

:15:58.:16:01.

and for how long, realistically, do you think this is

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going to be a factor? First of all, the effect

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of the sanctions... Our estimate, and this is supported

:16:06.:16:11.

by leading international economists, that out of 3.7% contraction,

:16:12.:16:17.

0.5% related to sanctions, and the rest is relating

:16:18.:16:22.

to the oil prices falling So sanctions had an effect,

:16:23.:16:27.

but it was not the overwhelming thing in in the overall

:16:28.:16:41.

economic trend in Russia. Again, sanctions are negative,

:16:42.:16:43.

both for Russia and those countries Continued sanctions will also bring

:16:44.:16:45.

more negative effects to the global economy and to Russia,

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as part of this global economy, but most of the issues we have

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are our domestic issues We know which structural reforms

:16:54.:16:56.

we should implement and continue. We know that we need to conduct

:16:57.:17:06.

fiscal consolidation, that we need to promote innovations

:17:07.:17:10.

and diversification of the Russian And looking forward,

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presidential election in the US. Once again there is a narrative

:17:14.:17:20.

that President Putin I think President Putin

:17:21.:17:22.

was very clear about that. He believes that Donald Trump

:17:23.:17:30.

is a strong man, but that doesn't We will work with any American

:17:31.:17:34.

president, since we believe that the United States is a big

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and very influential global force, and we need to be in dialogue,

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we need to be in partnership and hopefully any new

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American president... Now the polls show that

:17:53.:17:54.

Hillary will win that, but we will work with any American

:17:55.:18:00.

president, to restore Deputy Prime Minister,

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thank you very much. Georgetown University in Washington

:18:03.:18:05.

has announced plans to apologise for its role in the slave trade

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by offering preferential treatment to the descendants

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of certain slaves. In 1838, nearly 300 men women

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and children were sold by the institution to clear

:18:18.:18:20.

the colleges debts. Now, it wants to redress the past

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in the form of help with admissions of their descendents -

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the same kind offered Here's how Georgetown President

:18:28.:18:31.

announced the move. We will offer a mass

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of reconciliation, in which we will seek

:18:42.:18:42.

forgiveness from participation in the institution of slavery,

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and specifically for the sale of 272 Other US schools -

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including Harvard and Virginia - have acknowledged the debt they owe

:18:48.:18:53.

to slavery, but Georgetown is thought to be the first to

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offer to attempt practical amends. Is this the right way

:18:57.:18:59.

to go about redressing Joining me now are the

:19:00.:19:01.

historian David Olusoga A warm welcome to both of you. Does

:19:02.:19:14.

this work? Does this make you think, David, that something is being done

:19:15.:19:19.

to correct past wrongs? This is the most brave and forward-thinking and

:19:20.:19:23.

American institution has done. It is partly able to do it because the

:19:24.:19:29.

records are so These 202 272 slaves were sold. The sale of these people

:19:30.:19:40.

saved the University. They gave, involuntarily, the money produced

:19:41.:19:44.

from that sale is why Georgetown is still there now. If somebody had

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written a check in 1984 for the money, I'm sure his children would

:19:48.:19:52.

be automatically welcomed into Georgetown. I don't really see the

:19:53.:19:59.

difference. Harry? I think it is a form of historic virtue, where

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somebody apologises not only for something they didn't do, but was

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done decades before they were born. We have seen a lot of this, it

:20:07.:20:10.

started with Tony Blair apologising the potato five famine in Ireland.

:20:11.:20:16.

He has a lot of things to apologise for, Tony Blair, but potato famine

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in Ireland is not one of them. I don't agree we are guilty for the

:20:21.:20:25.

sins, the very real sins, committed by our ancestors and I don't think

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we should be compensated for those sins inflicted upon them. It has

:20:30.:20:34.

nothing to do with guilt, you can't inherit guilt, you're absolutely

:20:35.:20:37.

right. You cannot inherit the guilt of your forefathers. There is no one

:20:38.:20:41.

around today who was a slave owner. This is about money, money was

:20:42.:20:47.

inherited, it was reinvested and the University 's rich. It is not about

:20:48.:20:53.

guilt, it's about money. Ferran. The second thing is it's fair to offer

:20:54.:21:02.

scholarships. -- fair enough. What they're saying, they are not

:21:03.:21:07.

offering scholarships but the same thing may offer to somebody whose

:21:08.:21:12.

parents or grandparents or great-grandparents attended that

:21:13.:21:15.

university... David, if you do believe it is about money. I

:21:16.:21:21.

disagree with that as well, the idea that just because you're ancestors

:21:22.:21:26.

are a long night you should have easier access to university. That is

:21:27.:21:32.

part of the American system. David, if you think it is about money and

:21:33.:21:36.

inherited wealth is that the right gesture? If these they have great

:21:37.:21:47.

records, why don't they pay out rather than these admissions?

:21:48.:21:55.

Slavery prevented African-Americans from accumulating generation upon

:21:56.:21:58.

generation, the sort of wealth and property and land that many people

:21:59.:22:04.

in America were able to accumulate. African-Americans struggle in many

:22:05.:22:08.

cases to attend university. One of the ways of re-dressing these things

:22:09.:22:13.

is further higher education those of you have an institution financially

:22:14.:22:17.

saved by the sale of slaves and is perfectly placed to help the

:22:18.:22:20.

descendants of those people. How far would you hold out against that

:22:21.:22:26.

principle? If it came down to the restitution of stolen Nazi artworks,

:22:27.:22:30.

would you say those should be returned? Are you saying it's just

:22:31.:22:35.

an apology? I think it's hard to come up with a precise date you

:22:36.:22:38.

could say as a starting point within living memory. I think it is

:22:39.:22:43.

perfectly acceptable for David Cameron to apologise for Bloody

:22:44.:22:48.

Sunday in 1972, there are people who survived. There is a stage where you

:22:49.:22:52.

go too far back in history where I don't think 1's own difficulties in

:22:53.:22:57.

life can be ascribed back to a particular horror. Of course, it was

:22:58.:23:03.

completely disgusting, inflicted on ancestors. History is full of

:23:04.:23:07.

disgusting behaviour by disgusting people. I don't think it is the

:23:08.:23:10.

descendants of those who have done the Di death disgusting things. If

:23:11.:23:15.

that example of having money that could have gone to you went

:23:16.:23:21.

elsewhere, is that... We're talking about two different things. As I

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said to begin with, it is completely acceptable to offer money as

:23:26.:23:28.

scholarships to people. Which they are not doing. I wish they would.

:23:29.:23:34.

That is fair enough, but there is a particular point about what

:23:35.:23:36.

Georgetown are doing, offering these lowered standards. They are not

:23:37.:23:42.

lowered standards. People with the same grades, the same

:23:43.:23:46.

qualifications, one of them was a legacy, either grandparents or

:23:47.:23:50.

parents on one of them was an ancestor... Do worry about that

:23:51.:23:54.

perception? It is an unfair advantage. If I was in that

:23:55.:24:01.

position, a descendant of slaves and got into university because of that

:24:02.:24:04.

I would feel cheap and don't patronise. I don't think it is the

:24:05.:24:08.

way to do it. There is that insidious sense that if you are part

:24:09.:24:12.

of that community, who knows they have been given access, what happens

:24:13.:24:16.

if you think everyone is looking at you thinking, they are only here

:24:17.:24:21.

because they are descendants of slaves? Universities in America are

:24:22.:24:24.

full of people because they are descendants of people who gave money

:24:25.:24:28.

to that university. It doesn't make you uncomfortable? That is the

:24:29.:24:31.

American system and they are extending that system to men, women

:24:32.:24:35.

and children, descendants of those sold. This could be a very clever PR

:24:36.:24:41.

coup by an American university, wants to do the right thing? Look at

:24:42.:24:46.

the words you think of redemption, Atonement. It's not surprising. This

:24:47.:24:51.

is a Catholic institution, looking at its past and using these terms of

:24:52.:24:55.

atonement. I think this is genuine and I applaud it. Thank you both

:24:56.:24:57.

very much for coming in. When Donald Trump went

:24:58.:25:01.

to Mexico earlier this week, some thought he might be rowing back

:25:02.:25:03.

on his rhetoric about immigrants, and about building a wall

:25:04.:25:06.

across the border. But no - in a speech just hours

:25:07.:25:08.

later, he made it clear his stance Multi Grammy award winning singer

:25:09.:25:11.

Lila Downs grew up both sides of that border between the US

:25:12.:25:15.

and Mexico - Secunder Kermani has been speaking to her about Trump,

:25:16.:25:18.

about her role as an activist When you listen to Mexican singer

:25:19.:25:21.

Lila Downs, as with so much in the country, you're struck

:25:22.:25:42.

by the constant and even often It's poetic, I believe,

:25:43.:25:45.

but it's also about confronting, So we have that contradiction,

:25:46.:25:54.

and in the arts it expresses itself with melancholy and what we call

:25:55.:26:03.

sentimento, and with joy and celebration

:26:04.:26:08.

and a lot drinking! # Lila Downs -

:26:09.:26:10.

El Palomo del Comalito #. Her music celebrates her

:26:11.:26:18.

indigenous Mixtec heritage. Downs was born to a Mexican mother

:26:19.:26:23.

from the State of Oaxaca and a white She grew up in both

:26:24.:26:27.

America and Mexico. So Donald Trump's bid to be

:26:28.:26:35.

president and his repeated calls for a wall at the border,

:26:36.:26:39.

in spite of a recent trip to Mexico, is something Downs

:26:40.:26:42.

takes very personally. We will build a great wall along

:26:43.:26:45.

the southern border. It hurts because I consider

:26:46.:26:49.

myself a border person, I think about my Anglo father,

:26:50.:27:01.

and I think it would be very sad... I've been working on music that

:27:02.:27:15.

tries to bring these worlds together, and here we have

:27:16.:27:24.

something that is, you know, contrary of what I have been working

:27:25.:27:33.

on all my life. Downs has also been vocal

:27:34.:27:36.

on issues within Mexico, like the disappearance of 43 student

:27:37.:27:39.

teachers two years Corrupt local police in a drugs gang

:27:40.:27:41.

have been blamed, but relatives think the role of senior officials

:27:42.:27:47.

is being covered up. You think about people who haven't

:27:48.:27:52.

had a chance to defend themselves, and it is the scariest

:27:53.:27:58.

form of terrorism, And in this case, of course,

:27:59.:28:04.

they were kids, they were students, and this was something that,

:28:05.:28:11.

for me personally, I had How free do you feel as an artist,

:28:12.:28:18.

as an individual, as I have seen female journalists

:28:19.:28:46.

in Mexico disappeared and threatened, as well,

:28:47.:28:56.

because of looking for the truth about disappeared people

:28:57.:29:04.

and this is, it's appalling, the way that you can be

:29:05.:29:08.

treated in our country. I actually wrote a song dedicated

:29:09.:29:13.

to journalists who are We put smoke on the alter

:29:14.:29:15.

on the Day of the Dead, and our belief is it's the way

:29:16.:29:25.

that the dead can find their way That's it for tonight,

:29:26.:29:32.

in the week that JK Rowling went to war with the Corbynistas

:29:33.:30:08.

on Twitter over who should Getting into a scrap with one

:30:09.:30:11.

of the country's most influential authors probably

:30:12.:30:17.

wasn't a good idea though, as we discovered when Warner

:30:18.:30:19.

Brothers gave us a sneak peak Good evening, if your weekend starts

:30:20.:31:09.

drying bright, make the most of it, because it is not last. All of this

:31:10.:31:13.

rain out West will

:31:14.:31:14.

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