Browse content similar to 15/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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The deal that seals Britain's nuclear future, finally signed. | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
After delaying a decision on Hinkley Point, Theresa May has | :00:10. | :00:11. | |
I've been in Whitehall finding out who the real winners and losers | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
And, we'll be talking to the man who drew up the plans | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
The view of my committee is that it'll be an act close to insanity | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
on every grounds to do a blanket suspension of British arms | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
Crispin Blunt tells us that if the courts rule that arms sales | :00:32. | :00:40. | |
to Saudi are illegal, then the law needs to be changed. | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
I have to say, it's great to be back on the campaign trail. | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
She's out of her sick bed, but can Hillary Clinton recapture | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
the ground she's lost to Donald Trump? | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
We'll have the first TV interview with the Grime star who beat Bowie | :00:54. | :01:11. | |
Theresa May today pressed the nuclear button and gave | :01:12. | :01:27. | |
the go-ahead to the controversial Hinkley Point power plant. | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
Mischief-makers have pointed out that the ?18 billion deal means | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
that her Government, like her predecessor's, | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
is quite comfortable with the state ownership of utilities - | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
as long as the states are foreign - in this case, France and China. | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
More trenchant criticism has been directed at the project's escalating | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
costs and the security implications of allowing nuclear power plants | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
to be built in the UK by foreign governments. | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Indeed, it was these concerns that prompted the Prime Minister | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
to delay her decision and revisit the terms of the deal | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
Newsnight's political editor, Nick Watt, is here. | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
Nick, what are the key differences between the new deal | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Two levels, nothing has changed. The strike price for this deal. The | :02:05. | :02:12. | |
amount we pay for electricity generated by this plant, that stays | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
the same. In the second place, this marks the beginning of Chinese | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
involve am in our civil nuclear infrastructure and they could still | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
be on course to have a complete say over the building of the third plant | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
in this project, Bradwell in Essex. Downing Street is saying that the | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
Theresa May pause has led to two tangible changes. They are, in the | :02:36. | :02:40. | |
first place, after the Hinkley plant has been built, the UK Government | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
will take what is called a "special share" in all future civil nuclear | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
plants. You will hear in a minute from Sir Ed Davey the former Lib Dem | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
Energy and Climate Change Secretary. He tried to push for something along | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
those lines, George Osborne said no, didn't want to offend the Chinese. | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
The second difference Downing Street points to is a rigorous assessment | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
of what is called "the ownership of critical it infrastructure" that | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
Bradwell plant in the future. That will be a victory for the Prime | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
Minister's joint Chief of Staff Nick Timothy who raised the issue of | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
security of Chinese involve am. Friends of George Osborne are saying | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
absolutely nothing has changed. It's interesting. I have been hearing | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
from senior Whitehall officials they say it's a bit of a set back for | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
Nick Timothy. They say it's difficult how you can reconcile this | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
deal, even as amended with an article that he wrote for the | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
ConservativeHome website last year on the eve of that state visit by Xi | :03:44. | :03:51. | |
Jinping. He wrote, "security experts reportedly inside as well as outside | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Government are worried that the Chinese could use their role to | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
build weaknesses into computer systems which will allow them to | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
shutdown Britain's energy production at will." There is another feeling | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
in Whitehall. There is a little feeling of guilt that perhaps it was | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
a bit unfair of them to expect Theresa May to become Prime Minister | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
and almost immediately sign up to such a massive project and they are | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
saying, fair enough, that she had to have a pause and have some ownership | :04:23. | :04:25. | |
of it. Many thanks, indeed. Of course, it's not all | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
about politics and security. Many of us will be at least | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
as interested in what it all means Newsnight's Adam Parsons has been | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
looking at the numbers. Here's Hinkley Point a bird spotting | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
haven in Somerset that is the focus of our nation's energy policy. Two | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
nuclear power stations have already been built here, Hinkley Point A, | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
shut in 1999, while B is still up and running. Next door comes the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
expensive, if unimaginatively named, Hinkley Point C. It's actually going | :05:01. | :05:07. | |
to be two reactors put together costing ?18 billion of French and | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
Chinese money. The biggest contribution of all might yet come | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
from us. The UK's electricity consumers. Here's why. When | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
electricity is sold by power stations they use a measure called a | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
megawatt hour. The electricity you needed to power 3,300 homes for a | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
single hour. Hinkley is guaranteed to be paid ?92. ?92.auto 50 for each | :05:32. | :05:38. | |
megawatt hour it generates. That assured earning figure is called - | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
the strike price. Created after length bey negotiation between EDF | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
and the Government. It's crucial. It's what EDF wanted to provide the | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
certainty that its investment really was worthwhile. It's also how we can | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
analyse just what sort of value we're getting here. What's important | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
to remember is the strike price was created in 2012. It goes up with | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
inflation. So if I could click my fingers and have Hinkley open right | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
now, the price of a megawatt hour would already have gone up to more | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
than ?95. It will keep going up in line with inflation for 35 years | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
after the station opens for business. Let us imagine that | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
Hinkley Point C does open, on time, in 2025, when inflation might have | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
seen the price hit ?110. In 2060 we will be paying ?95 along with | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
four-and-a-half decades worth of inflation. So what does this deal | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
really mean? I'm not going to predict the state of the energy | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
market in 44 years' time. You can see that over the past six years the | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
price of electricity has never got near the Hinkley Point point. It's | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
presently less than half the now famous strike price. What happens | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
when the price of electricity is a lot lower than the money we've all | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
promised EDF? That is where we come in, consumers. We are going to have | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
to pay more to cover that gap. How much? Well, when Hinkley was planned | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
it was reckoned to be a subsidy of ?6 billion. About ?10 per household | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
per year. That figure has mushroomed. The National Audit | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
Office thinks UK businesses and households will have to find ?30 | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
billion to plug the gap. One-and-a-half times of cost of | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
building Hinkley in the first place. Why do it? One simple reason is that | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
we need new power stations. Coal ones are being phased out. Others | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
are simply getting old. What are the benefits? 60% of the money that is | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
being spent on construction is expected to go to British companies. | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
Future cash object tariffs imposed on coal and gas power stations might | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
put prices up dramatically. It might be that Hinkley one day looks rather | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
good value-for-money. Here with me now is Sir Ed Davey | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
who negotiated the Hinkley deal in the first place | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
when he was Climate Change Secretary It looks as if the French sent you a | :08:01. | :08:09. | |
wish list and you and George Osborne granted them all? Not at all. The | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
French didn't get what they wanted at all. They wanted a much higher | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
price. George Osborne was prepared to sign a deal at a higher price. I | :08:17. | :08:24. | |
said, absolutely no way. We had to get if Sizewell C goes ahead it will | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
be sub 90. I think because we will need a lot of electricity when our | :08:30. | :08:37. | |
coal power stations shut. We will need a lot of low-carbon electricity | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
because of climate change this has to be part of the answer. Along with | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
all the renewables. I'm proud that with the Liberal Democrats in the | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
last Coalition Government we had a massive expansion of wind and solar | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
a and I put on the agenda tidal lagoons as well. Moving into | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
reverse? I think the Conservatives are making a hugeror. Error. They | :09:02. | :09:10. | |
are putting the nations eggs in the nuclear and gas basket. They have | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
undermined investment energy efficiency and closed down carbon | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
capture storage. They are betting the nation on gas and nuclear. That | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
is irresponsible. Yet, of course, Germany is pressing forward into an | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
energy future completely devoid of nuclear. I appreciate you don't hold | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
a brief for the German company. How come they can do it and we can't? | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
They are burning a lot more coal because they have made a huge mess. | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
Most energy analysts would think the German model is not one to follow. | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
They've investeded in renewables, which is good, they have paid a much | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
higher price for their renewables than they we have. By taking a | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
low-carbon climate friendly nuclear out they are burning dirty coal. | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
That is not a good result for the environment. Speaking of paying a | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
higher price than perhaps consumer or indeed a country has to. Take a | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
look at this graph we have prepared for ease of understanding. That's | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
sort of, as you can see, clearly where the price per unit stands now. | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
That is the price per unit that we will be getting out of Hinkley. | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
Well, you don't need me to tell you there is a fairly big imbalance | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
between the two? The current electricity is provided by gas and | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
coal. They don't pay their pollution costs. They don't pay a carbon | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
price. If you added the carbon price on to that you would see them level | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
up. What I negotiated in the Hinkley price, which is not well-known, but | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
it's very important, is that the costs of nuclear decommissioning, | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
the costs of dealing with the pollution of nuclear, if you like, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
the nuclear west management costs, they are in the price. You are | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
comparing apples with pears there. Electricity with electricity albeit | :10:58. | :10:59. | |
although different types. Let me explain. You haven't got the point. | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
That includes electricity plus the waste management costs the pollution | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
costs. That doesn't. You have apples and pears. No, it's right. The price | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
to the consumer. It doesn't deal with the cost of dealing with | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
climate change. It's the cheque we write or the direct debit we sign to | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
our electricity people. You are misleading people. You have to deal | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
with price, you have to deal with keeping the lights on. Which clearly | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
Hinkley does. You also have to deal with cleaning up our energy. We have | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
to tackle climate change. So when you look at energy policy you have | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
to do all three. You are looking at one there. That is why you are | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
misleading people. We are not misleading people we are telling | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
them what they will be paying for their electricity than what they are | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
down-the-line. I fully understand the point you are making. The | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
question is why the National Audit Office estimates ?30 billion worth | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
of, they use the word "subsidy" to could be a sweetener coming from the | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
consumer to EDF effectively to the French state, to the French | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
government, 85% owned by the French? One of the reasons why EDF took such | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
a long time to director this and the director of finance resigned from | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the board, I don't think everyone in France think it is's a good deal for | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
the French. Why might that be? Again in the price I ensured that the UK | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
consumer pays nothing, nothing, unless and until the power station | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
generates. It's supposed to be 2025, it could be later. How much later? I | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
don't know. Of course I don't know yet. Roughly an idea of when it will | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
be up and running? I don't know. You signed the deal? Listen you don't | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
know about nuclear plants. The reason why I'm telling you this | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
important point. If it's overrun, we don't bear the cost. The French bear | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
the cost. If there are overruns, delays the UK consumer is completely | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
protected. That has never happened in a nuclear deal before. There is a | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
possibility that this thing never gets built, right. In what | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
circumstances would that happen? At the moment, this worried me when I | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
was Secretary of State. The EPR hasn't been built in Finland or | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
Paris or hasn't been built in China. I was worried if it doesn't get | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
built we might be laboured and burden with the cost. The deal makes | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
sure the French will have to take up the cost if they don't build it. | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
Unglittering track record, why would you sign up to be the latest | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
customer? We are not bearing the risk. The thing that we had - There | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
is a risk our capacity won't increase if the plant isn't built. I | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
appreciate that might not incur financial costs you have described a | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
system - I was coming back to that. You don't know the question. The | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
ones you cited are behind schedule or might not happen. | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
You went to a shop that failed to satisfy a single customer and | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
handled them the largest of all deals. The largest man made | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
structure on the planet some estimate. I was going to answer a | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
question. You are right if it doesn't make sure if it isn't built | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
the costs are born by the French not the British. Which we have done. We | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
had to make sure we had enough alternative power if it doesn't get | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
built. Hold on. I was arguing we need carbon capture storage, on | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
shore wind, solar, tidal lagoon and other options as a mixed diverse | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
approach and why the Tories are making such a drastic mistake | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
because they have cancelled effectively onshore wind. They have | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
cancelled CCS. They are taking all these options off the table. I | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
ensured they were there to protect the country's interests You signed a | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
long-term. Deal for a nuclear plant that we didn't necessarily need and | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
the Tories back-tracking on environmental policy means we really | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
needed it now and we might not get it? We do need it. Is that an | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
accurate analysis? No. I signed a deal for nuclear powerer we don't | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
need. You said we you could cover the capacity with the other things | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
you introduced? If you are dealing with the big issues of how we power | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
our homes and factories you don't put all your eggs in one basket. Do | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
you? Would you be that irresponsible? No, I wasn't. I | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
ensured both to deal with climate change. We had low-carbon sources | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
and lots of options. That is the sensible cautious thing to do to | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
make sure you protect Britain. The Tories are playing fast and loose | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
because they have taken low-carbon renewables off the table and they | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
are putting all their eggs in this basket. While this deal in itself | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
may be a good thing. They are actually, overall energy policy is a | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
disaster. By the time the ramifications are clear nobody | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
responsible for the deal will be in office just like you aren't at the | :15:55. | :15:55. | |
moment. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now is Axelle Lemaire, | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
the French Minister of State for She's in town for to drum up | :16:00. | :16:01. | |
bilateral business, especially We'll get on to that momentarily, | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
but I wonder whether you could give us a quick insight into how | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
the French people - and particularly the unions - | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
feel about ?12 billion of French money being spent on a nuclear | :16:13. | :16:14. | |
power plant in Britain? I've tried to fight the answer to | :16:15. | :16:26. | |
that question. I was in London today and I couldn't find the answer | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
because I have not heard anything from the unions. I think that deal | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
is good news for the people who want work and it also gives a long-term | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
prospect for the bilateral cooperation between the countries | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
and I believe that is exacting what we need at the moment. Even when you | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
have heard our former Secretary of State think France is children all | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
of the risk. What I find interesting, when I come here I hear | :16:52. | :16:57. | |
that it is a bad deal for the French. When I go to France, I hit | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
it is a bad deal for the British so I sent it is a fair deal for all. It | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
is more environmentally friendly and it gives clean energy. In France, | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
energy is cheaper as well so I don't know about your price prospect but | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
what I can say is that it is important to have a diversity of | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
energy sources and we have to get ready for long-term prospects. So | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
everyone is a winner. Shall we move on to what you encountered in | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
London, I presume for the first time post Brexit as a minister for | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
responsible T4 entrepreneurial activity, have you detect a change | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
in tone in entrepreneurs and in the city in particular league? I met | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
different people, individuals are worried but there is this strange | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
feeling of, is there a Brexit or is there not a Brexit? It seems from | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
the outside that life goes on. I thought to myself, what is | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
happening. But when you really ask questions, what business people tell | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
you is that in the longer term, the current uncertainty will block their | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
decisions. For example, should they invest in new equipment? Should they | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
hire new people or not? How easy will it be to employ people coming | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
from abroad? It is very important in the sector to be dependent on | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
skilled people. There are a lot of questions... You can't answer them | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
until Article 50 is triggered. Does the French government have a | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
position on when they want to see it triggered? It is not for us to have | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
a position also the sooner the better. I know where you will take | :18:47. | :18:54. | |
me, that I sound tough, it is not a question of sounding tough, but I | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
read that the French are tough and the Germans are soft but because | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
what is in the interests of Britain of the British people, of France and | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
Europe. I think uncertainty is not good for anyone also if you look at | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
the economic figures of the British economy of this summer, it seems | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
pretty good, you might think low pound, good exports, many tourists, | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
no problem. In the longer term, no investment? Less margins for | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
companies, less capacity to invest. I think the longer we wait, the | :19:30. | :19:35. | |
harder the consequences can be also that is really why we want that | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
article 50 to be triggered. The noises from the Treasury suggest | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
early next year, some critics, Herman Van Rompuy had said not until | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
the German election is out of the way. Ideal scenario? Tomorrow, | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
Christmas, New Year's Eve? I feel you are asking me to answer a | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
question but I don't exacting know what the question is because it is | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
what is the deal in the negotiations. When will be triggered | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
be pulled? That is not for me to answer. What would suit York Leon | :20:10. | :20:18. | |
Taylor best? -- your Klingon tell -- clientele. What I observe that the | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
British government wants and needs time and this can be understood. But | :20:25. | :20:31. | |
it is not good to wait for too long. But my real concern, I feel the real | :20:32. | :20:39. | |
political question has not been addressed between freedom of | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
movement of people, and access to the single market. This real | :20:45. | :20:52. | |
question has not been addressed. As long as the British government will | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
not have the question, we will not be in a position to negotiate. Any | :20:56. | :20:56. | |
thanks. -- many thanks. Now a story we have covered | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
a lot on this programme. Select committee reports | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
on the legality of UK arms sales to Saudi Arabia are looking a lot | :21:04. | :21:06. | |
like buses tonight. You wait ages for one then | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
two come along at once. Confusingly, the first - | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
a joint effort by the Business and International Development Committees | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
- deemed it "inevitable that any violations of international | :21:16. | :21:17. | |
humanitarian and human rights law by the Saudi-led coalition in Yemen | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
have involved arms Some expected this to trigger | :21:22. | :21:23. | |
a demand for all such But the Foreign Affairs Select | :21:24. | :21:30. | |
Committee today published a rival report insisting that the legality | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
of arms sales to Saudi should be The chair of that committee, | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
Crispin Blunt, has been speaking to Newsnight's foreign | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
correspondent, Gabriel Gatehouse, with some frankly remarkable results | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
but before we hear about them, I thought it would be helpful | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
to pick Gabriel's brains about how this strange select committee | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
stalemate came to pass. Some background on this, the Saudi | :21:55. | :22:08. | |
led coalition's action over Yemen started last March after who the | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
rebels, took over half the country will stop the action is backed by | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
the UN Security Council so it is legal under international law. Both | :22:18. | :22:19. | |
sides have been accused of committing your -- war crimes with | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
the UN can add with figures that 60% of civilian casualties have been | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
caused by the air strikes by the Saudi led coalition. This programme | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
and others have reported instances of attacks on civilian | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
infrastructure, factories and schools and the like. Where Britain | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
comes into this is that we note that Britain itself a lot of weapons to | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
Saudi Arabia, a 30 fold increase in our sales of weapons in the first | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
year of that war compared to the same period in the previous year. | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
Earlier this year, four select committees came together to look at | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
the question of if our arms sales to Saudi Arabia are still legal. This | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
was made up of MPs from Ball committees, foreign affairs, | :23:03. | :23:05. | |
defence, international development and business -- four committees. | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
Last week we got a leaked draft report with some strong language | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
which said there was credible evidence of violations of human | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
rights and it called for a suspension of sales. Within got the | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
leaked tabled amendments, many written by Crispin Blunt, which | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
appeared to get rid a lot of that language, crucially the call for the | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
suspension of arms sales. There was to and disagreement amongst MPs and | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
Crispin Blunt led a war cabinet of some saying that the committee could | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
not come to an agreement. What happened was an most unprecedented | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
situation to of these two rival reports, the one from business and | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
international development calling for a suspension. Both of them | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
calling for an international investigation but crucially, Crispin | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
Blunt's did not call for that suspension. We have had a lot of | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
talk about process but I wanted to talk about substance so I went to | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
seek Crispin Blunt in his constituency this afternoon and here | :24:04. | :24:04. | |
is some of our conversation. What's at stake here are two things | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
- the rule of law and what's And under the rule of law, | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
there has been an illegal armed It's very important for people | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
to understand the context... The Saudi intervention is backed | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
by the United Nations so therefore But they are also obliged to abide | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
by international law. They are obliged by international | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
humanitarian law. Your colleagues say there has been | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
very credible evidence of violations The issue is about whether there has | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
been an actual breach of international humanitarian law | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
that would then bring a responsibility on the British | :24:48. | :24:49. | |
government to act I don't believe this part of the law | :24:50. | :24:51. | |
has been tested in this way before. Obviously the proper place for that | :24:52. | :24:59. | |
to happen is the courts and that's what the Foreign Affairs | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
Committee are saying. Your colleagues in the other | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
committee say that, while we wait for the courts to decide that, | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
we should suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia in case arms | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
that we sell them are being used That has completely | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
disappeared from your report. It has because the view | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
of my committee is that it would be an act close to insanity on every | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
ground to do a blanket suspension of British arms | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
exports to Saudi Arabia. The kind of bombs we know, | :25:29. | :25:30. | |
the kind of bombs sold by Britain to Saudi Arabia which we | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
know have been dropped And the implications of that, some | :25:39. | :25:40. | |
of those are laser-guided bombs, giving the Saudis the capability | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
through a proper targeting process to actually hit | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
what they are intending to hit. And if we stopped supplying those | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
weapons, they then may have to turn to less guided weapons, | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
the kinds the Russians have been using in Syria for example | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
where the accusation... If we are contravening our own laws | :26:00. | :26:02. | |
by selling weapons to Saudi Arabia that are being used in contravention | :26:03. | :26:12. | |
of international humanitarian law, and the test is very low, | :26:13. | :26:14. | |
if there is a clear risk that these weapons might, | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
might be used in contravention of international humanitarian law, | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
then we must stop doing it. Then we are going to have to see how | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
the judges interpret that. The practical consequences | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
of that are actually It would mean our relationship | :26:27. | :26:28. | |
with the Saudis and the influence we have over them about the joint | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
interests we have is that they are rigorous in making sure | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
there are no breaches That they put their Armed Forces | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
under the same kind We clearly don't have that influence | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
because look at all these The context this has got to be in, | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
and this is exactly why the Foreign Affairs Committee has | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
probably come to a different conclusion to the others, | :26:54. | :26:56. | |
is that this is actually about our wider relationship | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
with Saudi Arabia as well as the more narrow relationship | :26:59. | :27:00. | |
about the Saudis moving to our standards in terms | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
of conducting a military campaign. But our relationship | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
with Saudi Arabia is irrelevant Then surely we have | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
to change the law? Do you think we should | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
change the law? That is in the Foreign Affairs | :27:13. | :27:14. | |
Committee report. If it turned out that the courts | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
decided we were in breach of our law, we would have to, | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
we should then look So we should soften our stance | :27:22. | :27:23. | |
on the criteria under I think some people may look | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
at all of this evidence that has accumulated over 18 months | :27:28. | :27:36. | |
of what has been going on in Yemen and conclude that either | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
you are naive, gullible, They might think that | :27:41. | :27:41. | |
you were naive And the people who come | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
to the other conclusion. Because there is a war | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
going on in the Yemen. This is about international legal | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
authority trying to suppress And the illegal armed rebellion has | :28:00. | :28:01. | |
to be addressed otherwise it is the law of the jungle | :28:02. | :28:11. | |
and the people in the Yemen are then victims of whichever | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
militia, armed group, can impose their will | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
on those people. Time now for our weekly glance | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
across the Atlantic and another valiant attempt to identify the most | :28:20. | :28:29. | |
crucial developments of the last week in America's escalating | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
presidential election. According to the polls, | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
the battle between Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump is getting closer | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
by the day while both candidates apparently remain | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
committed to the tactics of attacking their opponent's | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
weaknesses in preference, perhaps, Steve Hilton, CEO of Crowdpac, | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
a political crowd-funding and data site, and David Cameron's former | :28:48. | :28:58. | |
adviser now based in America, joins us from San Francisco, | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
and the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Mary Jordan, | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
who's covering the contest for the Washington Post, | :29:06. | :29:06. | |
is in Washington DC. Thank you both for joining us. | :29:07. | :29:37. | |
Steve, highlights, low lights, somewhere in the middle, what have | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
you chosen for us tonight? There is a lot to talk about but the one I | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
particularly wanted to start with was something Hillary Clinton said | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
last Friday, the date she was diagnosed with pneumonia, I'm not | :29:51. | :29:52. | |
sure if that had anything to do with it. She had allegedly said this in | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
private fundraisers all summer but in public at a glitzy fundraiser in | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
New York with the entertainment provided by none other than Barbara | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
Streisand, she told us exactly what she thinks not just of Trump butt of | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
his supporters and I think we have that clip. | :30:11. | :30:11. | |
You can put half of Trump's supporters into what | :30:12. | :30:13. | |
I call the basket of deplorables. | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
Racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, | :30:18. | :30:26. | |
The basket of deplorable is. Is it a good or bad move? I think it is | :30:27. | :30:43. | |
honestly a really big mistake. Aside trying to say that this is good for | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
her campaign because it put into the conversation some of the more | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
off-putting element of Donald Trump's rhetoric but in truth what | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
it does is surely true voice of what has become a very arrogant ruling | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
elite and it's not just the Democrats. You hear this talk from | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
the Republican establishment who also hate Trump almost as much as | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
Clinton does. They are showing that this election is dividing up in more | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
interesting ways than we have seen up till now where you have working | :31:14. | :31:16. | |
people who feel that whoever they voted for the last few decades, | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
nothing has got better in their lives. And the elite has been in | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
charge. We have seen as borne out by the data this week, new income | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
figures published show that 50% of all Americans earn less today than | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
in 1999 and in fact the bottom 10% earn less today than in the 1980s | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
and I think that is really driving this enormous sense of anger and | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
resentment at the ruling elite which she then insulted. And yet she does | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
speak some truth, Donald Trump suddenly leaves himself open to | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
accusations of xenophobia and his core support Jim to the rafters and | :31:55. | :31:56. | |
he has attracted support from the likes of former grand Wizard of the | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
KKK -- support him. What she is speaking the truth or making a | :32:03. | :32:04. | |
mistake or something subtler than that? | :32:05. | :32:07. | |
Most definitely it was a huge mistake. Trump made an ad out of | :32:08. | :32:17. | |
that. People had it on their T-shirt "the deplorables" this is clearly a | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
huge mistake. She broke the rule in politics. It's OK. In fact you're | :32:21. | :32:28. | |
supposed to condemn racism and homophobia, but you don't condemn | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
the voters that you need in order to win. In this case half of them. We | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
are short of time tonight. I apologise. Mary, tell us what it is | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
you have chosen to focus on from this week's electioneering? It's | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
been a stealar week for Donald Trump. As you said he is pulling in | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
the polls. Why don't we go to the clip today where he was capitalising | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
on the fact that Hillary Clinton has been out with pneumonia. Where he | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
used a TV doctor to tell all of the country that he is superbly fit. So | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
theatrical and, in some ways, ridiculous. | :33:07. | :33:08. | |
If your health is as strong as it seems, | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
Well, I have really no problem in doing it. | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
One is the report and the other is from Lenox Hill Hospital. | :33:16. | :33:27. | |
He's turning it into a game show, Mary Jordan. Is he winning it? Well, | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
he may be winning it. He is a reality TV star, right? He shows the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
country over and over again how masterful he is at using TV. He went | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
on TV and got an hour of it today to tell the country that his | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
testosterone, get this, is really high. He has so much stamina. He can | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
hit a golf ball better now at the age age of 70 than when he was 30. | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
He got a huge amount of air time out of this. I think he's a winner. It | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
doesn't matter for a lot of voters that this doctor, Dr Oz has been | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
condemned by people in the Congress, British medical journals, he's | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
baseless. He is the guy for instance you should take coffee bean pills to | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
lose weight. It doesn't matter. He got a lot of air time. I think it | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
would help him. He is fully qualified. Is it another chapter in | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
post-truth politics. I think it is. It's beyond parody. To be serious | :34:34. | :34:39. | |
for a second the real health story was Hillary Clinton's actually | :34:40. | :34:41. | |
health episode, as it has been described. It will have an effect on | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
perceptions among the undecided voters about whether they want to | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
take a risk on her versus Donald Trump who does, through this | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
projects an awe are of strength whatever you think of him. Many | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
thanks indeed for your time tonight. Speaking of winners. | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
Just before we came on air tonight, the winner of this year's | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
prestigious Mercury Music Prize was announced. | :35:11. | :35:11. | |
It wasn't, as some predicted, the late, great David Bowie, | :35:12. | :35:13. | |
He won the ?25,000 prize for his album Konnichiwa. | :35:14. | :35:28. | |
Stephen Smith sent us this dispatch from the ceremony a little earlier. | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
It came down to a contest between two black stars. We as a jury | :35:34. | :35:54. | |
decided that if David Bowie was looking down on the Hammersmith | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
Apollo tonight... APPLAUSE And, let's face, maybe he | :35:59. | :36:03. | |
is. We've seen traces of his influence in many of the bands | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
you've seen perform here tonight. If he was looking down at the | :36:09. | :36:17. | |
Hammersmith Apollo tonight, he would want the 2016 Mercury Prize to go to | :36:18. | :36:29. | |
Skepta. CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
# That's not me # That's not me... | :36:33. | :36:40. | |
# Yeah, I used to wear Gucci # That's not me | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
# True I used to look like you... # Hello, Skepta. Newsnight, home of | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
grime. How do you feel? We are not supposed to ask that question. How | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
do you feel? Um... You looked overwhelmed in there? Yeah. I don't | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
know. Have you ever dreamed of something happening all your life | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
and it happened. It doesn't happen, but for you it did? Umm. It's like. | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
I don't know... It's really reassuring to me to follow my mind | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
and follow what I think. That got me to this point. It's reassuring. I'm | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
happy for my team. So many people behind this guy that helped, | :37:20. | :37:28. | |
Konnichiwa the album. We get to celebrate tonight. Did you hear what | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
Jarvis said about David Bowie. What did you make of his remarks there? | :37:35. | :37:41. | |
Definitely. I understand, as an artist when you are trying to work | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
and putting something out. Getting to the point... Me, personally, I | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
would have been happy to release an album just before I passed. I hope | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
he feels fulfilled and I hope he's happy. Every artist should just | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
strive to be putting out the best work they can because anything can | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
happen. You can go any time, which is the reason I said rest in peace | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
to David Bowie. Rest in peace to Amy Winehouse. I feel I'm representing | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
London in the same way. Yeah, I hope that, yeah, I hope that he's happy | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
man. What about the status of grime though? It's not always had a great | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
press, some people perhaps misunderstand it. So what does this | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
win do for the June are, do you think? We were young. We were young. | :38:26. | :38:33. | |
Like, I think that people... Like, older people need to stop separating | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
themselves from young mind or thinking one day they weren't crazy | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
as well. It's all about understanding. We were young. People | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
didn't want to understand us. We were expressing ourselves. They | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
should have embraced it. It should have happened a long time ago. They | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
didn't. It took me to grow older, realise my value and know my worth | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
and I can carry myself the way I need to and spread therd word of the | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
London streets in a nice manner. What about your mum busting some | :39:03. | :39:03. | |
moves up there? Yeah, yeah! APPLAUS | :39:04. | :39:14. | |
Shouts out to my mum. I love you. You are the reason for this. It | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
sounds a cliche. I wouldn't be here without you. Thank you very much mum | :39:19. | :39:26. | |
you can dance as much as you like. A little word for Newsnight. | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
Newsnight. What channel. BBC Two? Sure, no problem. Tell us about this | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
evening and those dance moves. Oh, my gadness. What can I tell you Does | :39:38. | :39:44. | |
he get it all from you? Yes. Yes. He gets his creativity from dad. He got | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
the dance move, the confidence, the get-up-and-go from me. Did you ever | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
worry about him being in this scene? Did you hope he would have some | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
other kind of job or have you always been behind him? Not really. When we | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
raise them we want them to do what they want to do and we supervise. We | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
didn't train them, we raised them. That's about it for tonight. | :40:07. | :40:18. | |
you with a taste of this year's Mercury Prize winner. | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
You've heard him speak, but here he is, in all his Grimy | :40:23. | :40:24. | |
glory, performing at tonight's ceremony. | :40:25. | :40:25. | |
# They want to know how I did it with no label no A-list | :40:26. | :40:33. | |
# I'm like ring, ring, ring and it's shutdown | :40:34. | :40:39. | |
# Went to the show, sitting in the front row. | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
# In the black tracksuit and it's shutdown. | :40:43. | :40:44. | |
# Boy better know when it's shutdown...# | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
The heatwave is ending with a bang with severe disruption to the | :40:49. | :41:18. | |
south-east including the London area tomorrow morning due to severe | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
thunderstorms. Watch this space. It could be nasty. Wet to other eastern | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
areas through the day with | :41:26. | :41:26. |