Browse content similar to 20/09/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
No aid, no ceasefire, no end to the war, now or in sight. | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
Syria's stalemated civil war defies all attempts at resolution, | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
and punishes those trying to ease civilian pain. | :00:15. | :00:16. | |
When both sides realise they're not going to win militarily | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
and the people are just suffering unnecessarily, that's when you get | :00:23. | :00:25. | |
to the stage where you can try and end the war. | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
In Syria I feel we are still some way off that. | :00:29. | :00:43. | |
The US State Department will tell us if there is any way out. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron gives his big conference speech. | :00:47. | :00:49. | |
There is a hole in the centre of British politics right now, | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
for a rallying point for people who believe in the politics of | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
We'll ask whether the political centre is flourishing or withering? | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
I was competing against other artists to try and respond to this | :01:01. | :01:07. | |
quite minimal kind of strange massing that was a requirement of | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
planning, but which had to cover these flues. | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
How to dress up a chimney, the new work from Conrad Shawcross. | :01:16. | :01:27. | |
First, somebody bombed an aid convoy yesterday, | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
There is little doubt as to what happened - | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
this relief worker told Newsnight what he saw. | :01:37. | :01:50. | |
TRANSLATION: What happened is almost two hours before the bombing we | :01:51. | :01:57. | |
heard and we saw a drone. As soon as the regime announced the end of the | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
ceasefire, I had concerns it would start bombing because it flew over | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
us for a long time. After two hours the helicopter came and dropped the | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
first barrel bomb. After half a minute had dropped to barrel bombs | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
together and afterwards six air strikes by the military jet. Then | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
the Jets with guns launched an attack. Afterwards helicopters came | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
back to drop barrel bombs and the jet with gunners came back and | :02:24. | :02:24. | |
started firing. That was last night, tonight there's | :02:25. | :02:25. | |
news of another attack - the US charity UOSSM say five | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
of its aid workers have been killed at the Khan Touman emergency | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
point in southern Aleppo. Of course, everyone's | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
looking at the Syrian government or the Russians, | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
but what we know is that there's not much left | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
of the latest ceasefire in Syria. The protracted horror | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
continues, the conflict Now, research shows the average | :02:44. | :02:45. | |
civil war last a decade or so, but in Syria, the conditions | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
are there for it to be unceasing. Neither side will ever run out | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
of weapons, with a queue of foreign powers ready to re-arm them | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
if they appear in danger of losing. Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
looks at the ghastly kinetics It's a conflict in which taboos and | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
limitations have been broken. Neighbourhoods have been | :03:04. | :03:21. | |
starved, millions driven overseas, aid convoys bombed | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
and the beheading or mistreatment of prisoners elevated | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
into public spectacle. History has recorded quite a few | :03:27. | :03:42. | |
brutal civil war is but this one has reached a particularly grim pitch of | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
murderous intensity. It fits against one another and an array of forces, | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
on the far end of which are President Assad and those around him | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
who believe they will be physically eliminated if they lose, and the | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
jihadist enemy who think they are divinely ordained in their | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
slaughter. It has become much more brutal than | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
Bosnia which I saw at first hand. It became brutal quite quickly in 2012 | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
but the arrival of ices and the way Isis went about fighting and | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
imposing their rule and particularly treating their captives, whichever | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
captives they took including Syrian government soldiers, added an extra | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
dimension of brutality which has been truly shocking. | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
Some of Syria's larger cities have been pounded to the point where the | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
ruins stretch for miles. Catalogued by these Russian journalists. More | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
than half of the country's population has fled its homes while | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
mediators have told the warring parties they cannot win, they have | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
not despite all of this, reached a point where exhaustion leads them to | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
abandon the war. If you look at other civil wars | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
around the world and how they ended generally speaking if they are | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
turned by negotiation the end when you reach something the academics | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
call a mutually heading stalemate. When I went to Libya as special | :05:18. | :05:20. | |
envoy I thought we have got a stalemate but we did not have a | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
mutually hurting stalemate, both sides could still advance, game or | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
territory or money. It is when both sides realise they're not going to | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
win militarily and both sides are suffering, that is when you get to a | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
stage where you can end the war. Will the Syrian war simply carry on | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
until one or both sides have fought to exhaustion? It is more | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
complicated than that, that in a way has already happened with the forces | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
of President Assad plagued by desertion and barely capable on | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
their own of offensive action. And of course they have had thousands of | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
fighters join them from Hezbollah, from Iraq, Iran and indeed from | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
Russia. And that has kept them fighting, highlighting the key role | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
now of outside intervention. With a dozen air forces operating | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
over the country and arms pouring in for years only China amongst the UN | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
big five has not become directly involved. And that along with Iran, | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
Saudi and Turkish policies, has stymied the search for any | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
international solution. Huge divisions between the US, Russia, | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
the Saudis and Iran and the future of Assad, until that is resolved and | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
the troops on the ground issue was resolved, you will have continued | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
casualties. 75,000 people are now at risk, the manager convoys are not | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
getting through, Syrians are bombing convoys, the US bombing Syrians, it | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
is a disaster. But few outside powers have the appetite for a | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
completely open-ended intervention. And even Russia and Iran have | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
suggested limits on their willingness to support the Assad | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
regime. Eventually that could weigh on the warring parties. I hope it | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
ends soon but I fear it may take some time. I think as in most other | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
conflicts in the past at some stage there will be a mutually hurting | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
stalemate, the rebels will do better at militarily, Assad will be on the | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
back foot, the Russians will have other reasons to get out of Syria | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
was protecting the interest. Then I think you could begin serious | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
negotiations but I do not think the conflict will end or the fight | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
against ices, until Assad is gone. How long could the Syrian war now in | :07:42. | :07:51. | |
its sixth year go on? The Bosnian conflict was brought to an end by | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
foreign intervention on one side with the aim of coercing a halt to | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
the whole business. Perhaps the closest example we can seek to Syria | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
is the war in Lebanon. And many of the same groups and the same | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
outsiders were involved. And which in one form or another continued for | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
15 years. Joining us from the UN in New York | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
is Mark Toner Deputy Spokesperson Good evening and thank you for | :08:14. | :08:26. | |
joining us. On that attack on the aid convoy yesterday, you're sure it | :08:27. | :08:35. | |
is the Russians, 99%, 100% sure? What I can say categorically is it | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
was not coalition forces. We were not operating in that space. It was | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
either Russia or the regime. And in either case really it is the | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
responsibility of Russia to exert its influence on the regime's Edfors | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
so it bears ultimate responsibility for carrying out what was a | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
horrendous attack. Is the ceasefire, a ceasefire in all but name, is that | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
worth preserving at this point, West for giving Russia for what has | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
happened and saying, let's start again, or not? There was a meeting | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
earlier today in New York with the international Syria support group | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
and it was a very candid exchange as you can imagine. I think everyone | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
came out of that room, all the stakeholders, with the realisation | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
that we needed to stick with the arrangement we reached with Russia a | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
week ago in Geneva. Because it offers the best opportunity to get | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
this critical negotiation back on track and bring an end to the | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
conflict, the daily suffering and fighting of the Syrian people. You | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
spoke of this cycle of violence and complexity of the battle space in | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
Syria. And we need that is the idea behind this Syria support group, | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
bringing together all the stakeholders, ultimately with the | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
idea that if we can get them around the table, they can exert influence | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
is on the parties on the ground. To really make a change. Do you think | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
that what happened on Saturday when coalition forces, when the US and | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
indeed the UK killed 62 Syrian troops, accidentally, do you think | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
that had anything to do with what happened last night? It is hard for | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
me to say, I cannot speak to the motivations for the terrible actions | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
yesterday. We have said it publicly, acknowledged it almost immediately, | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
that the air strike on Saturday that hit regime forces was in error. We | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
thought we were hitting Isil, Daesh, forces. And we acknowledge that and | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
we owned it. We are conducting an investigation into what went wrong. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
More broadly fixed to the fact that we need to get to a point and we're | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
not there yet, where we can coordinate possibly with Russia on | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
air strikes against al-Nusra and Daesh. They claim to want that as | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
well but we cannot get there. Let's talk about the longer term, supposed | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
I told you this would be a leaden uncivil war going on for another ten | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
years, only a third of the way through. I gave you that has a | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
choice or you given, Assad is going to be in power, and he prevails. | :11:23. | :11:29. | |
Surely that would be better for the Syrian people, Assad winning rather | :11:30. | :11:34. | |
than continuing this conflict? Not at all. That is a false choice in my | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
view. Assad has really been the instigator of all the terrible | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
conflict that exists today in Syria whether it is terrible attacks, Bal | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
bombing, gassing of his own people, he has created the environment that | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
we find Syria in today will you have a moderate opposition driven into | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
the arms of some of the extremist groups like al-Nusra because they | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
are defending themselves against the regime backed by Russian air forces. | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
And you have got an environment where a group like Daesh, Isil, can | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
inhabit ungoverned spaces. Really this is the reality of Assad's | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
creation and he is in no way part of the solution. This has got to be a | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
political process ultimately. But you would agree that foreign | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
intervention, that effectively just keep each of these two sides, more | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
than the two sides, all the sides in this conflict going, it will keep | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
them going endlessly, basically foreign intervention is prolonging | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
the war, correct? That is the idea behind the international Syria | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
support group. Secretary Kerry and others brought this group together | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
with the idea that if we could get all the stakeholders, and Iran and | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
Russia are part of this, get them in a room and said look there is no | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
military solution to this, it can only go from bad to worse and we all | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
acknowledge that. And secretary Kerry spoke of this but the | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
arrangement if it falls apart, we could see even more violence, even | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
worse warfare and greater conflict for the Syrian people. This hinges | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
on the ability of the stakeholders to influence all the parties on the | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
ground to adhere to a cessation of hostilities and we're not yet bear. | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
We recognise that. Let's hope we get there soon. | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
The National Executive talking about important rule changes | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
on how the Shadow Cabinet should be selected. | :13:43. | :13:44. | |
that split the party on Corbyn/anti-Corbyn lines. | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
Our political editor Nick Watt is with me. | :13:50. | :13:56. | |
What news from Rome? It was long at eight and a half hours at least, and | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
superficially it was friendly, Jeremy Corbyn shed shortbread and | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
biscuits with Tom Watson, but make no mistake, this is a battle for | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
control of the Labour Party, and on the crucial issue of whether MPs | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
should elect the Shadow Cabinet, there is deadlock. Each side was | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
able to claim a little victory, so the non-Corbyn side were happy | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
because it was agreed that the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
Labour Party microbe will be able to nominate members for the NEC. Jeremy | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
Corbyn's side were happy, because they were able to prolong | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
discussions on the elections to the Shadow Cabinet. They saw off a | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
guillotine to force a vote one that at Saturday's meeting of the NEC. | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
Tom Watson looked quite happy, they said they did not reject the plan, | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
but it feels to me that Jeremy Corbyn is slightly ahead, and he is | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
hoping that if he wins the election on Saturday, later that day there | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
will be a meeting of the NEC and he will hope that he can say to them, | :15:02. | :15:09. | |
we need more time to discuss this proposal, widen the franchise, and | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
at the end of the conference the new NEC takes over, and they are more | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
favourable to him. Where does this leave us in terms of Jeremy Corbyn | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
winning on Saturday, where the battle goes next year? There is | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
going to be a continuing and bitter battle for control of the party, but | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
in phase two it will be different. Phase one was about most of the PLP | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
taking potshots at Jeremy Corbyn, that will be more difficult if he | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
wins the election. Phase two will be about the battle for who runs this | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
party, and in a way it will be back to the 1980s, where you will see | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
Jeremy Corbyn seeking to fulfil the vision of his hero, Tony Benn, which | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
is you diminish the role of the Parliamentary Labour Party and boost | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
the role of the party membership, and people like Tom Watson will save | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
no, we are governed by clause one of the constitution which says it is | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
our duty to sustain a covenant, which means the PLP must be the | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
premier body of the party. Nick, thanks. | :16:11. | :16:12. | |
A week ago, the foreign minister of Luxembourg suggested that Hungary | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
should be expelled from the EU, over its treatment of asylum seekers | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
and violations of press freedom and judicial independence, | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
It was a short but vitriolic spat, and it put into the open | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
the concerns of many west Europeans at the direction Hungary is taking | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
under its populist prime minister, Viktor Orban, | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
a man who talks about foreigners in language that other | :16:31. | :16:32. | |
At the moment Hungary is preparing to vote on whether to reject | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
an EU quota plan for migrants that would place refugees in the country. | :16:38. | :16:40. | |
is that that will endanger Hungary's culture and traditions. | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
Well, the Hungarian foreign minister, Pater Szijjarto, | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
is in New York for the UN General Assembly. | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
I spoke to him a little earlier and before we discussed his | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
government's attitude to refugees, I asked him about | :16:55. | :16:56. | |
what Hungary would accept in any post-Brexit trade talks. | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
We understand that the negotiations will be tough. | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
We understand the UK has very strong interest. | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
Of course, the more open the labour market in the UK stays | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
And if Britain says, look, we'd like to be in the single market | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
but we can't have free movement, is that possible, do you think? | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
Well, you know, I think it's not likely to happen, | :17:22. | :17:23. | |
because if you would like to have total access to free markets, | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
you have to give something on the other hand. | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
So being a member of the European Union means that | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
you are a member of the single market and you provide | :17:37. | :17:38. | |
the others with an approach to your labour markets. | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
Well, look, Hungary is a country that has its own reservations | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
You're having a referendum on the quota deal | :17:45. | :17:49. | |
for the refugees and migrants that are being resettled, | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
How many have you been asked to take, as it happens? | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
Well, under the current circumstances, | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
But, you know, this is not about figures. | :18:01. | :18:09. | |
This is about the overall approach to the migration issue. | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
Our position is that we have to give up policies which inspire | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
people to take the life hazard and come to Europe. | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
Our approach is that we have to bring the help | :18:22. | :18:23. | |
It sounds like you like some European laws, like free movement | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
for your people to emigrate to the UK, which has caused | :18:30. | :18:31. | |
a lot of disruption in the UK, some people would say. | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
But you don't like other European laws | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
which mean people can emigrate to your country. | :18:40. | :18:40. | |
No, no, you must not confuse these two things. | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
Because free movement of people means that citizens | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
of the European Union can move freely | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
What we don't accept is that there are people | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
who would like to violate our borders, you know. | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
There are European and international regulations how you can cross | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
borders between countries, and during the recent year | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
there were 400,000 people who violated our border. | :19:09. | :19:10. | |
Coming from a peaceful country, from Serbia or from Croatia. | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
This is something we're not going to accept. | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
OK, well, many would say rules are rules and you have to take | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
all the rules, or you don't take the rules. | :19:20. | :19:21. | |
But let me just ask you one last one. | :19:22. | :19:23. | |
There's a leaflet in your referendum campaign, a government leaflet, | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
and it tells the Hungarian people in advocating less migration | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
that there are hundreds, several hundred no-go areas in Europe | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
where migrants have taken over and people can get. | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
I think there are about a dozen, you say, in the UK. | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
Well, actually, we based these informations | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
on open reports, on official reports | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
given by the police of respective countries. | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
From the news and from official reports of the police. | :19:58. | :19:59. | |
and we don't want no-go zones in Hungary, for sure. | :20:00. | :20:06. | |
So you think that there are no-go zones, | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
migrant no-go zones in the UK, a dozen of them? | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
Because you marked them, I think, in Peterborough, | :20:14. | :20:15. | |
I mean, you've been to London, haven't you? | :20:16. | :20:20. | |
Yes, of course, I like London a lot, no problem. | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
And you still believe there are no-go areas in London | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
where you can't go because the migrants have taken over? | :20:27. | :20:28. | |
Yes, this is something we based on official reports. | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
You can use your eyes, it's just ridiculous. | :20:32. | :20:38. | |
Of course I can. Of course I can. | :20:39. | :20:40. | |
But did you talk to the British Government | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
before you published this about the United Kingdom? | :20:45. | :20:46. | |
It's a slur on the United Kingdom, by the way an inaccurate slur | :20:47. | :20:52. | |
on the United Kingdom - did you talk to the British Government | :20:53. | :20:54. | |
or even your embassy in London before you published this | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
Yes, of course we did talk to our embassy in London. | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
We have looked through very carefully the official report. | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
And to be very honest after we published this leaflet, | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
your ambassador serving in Budapest has come to my ministry to | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
Let's finish, Hungary is basically annoying | :21:12. | :21:18. | |
voices the idea that you should be kicked out of the European Union. | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
When you see things like this, distributing literature | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
that is false and defamatory of a nation, lots of nations, | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
actually, you can see why other governments just say, | :21:31. | :21:33. | |
this country is not playing by the rules that it signed up | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
That is why I think we are under attack, because we play according | :21:37. | :21:48. | |
to the rules of showing, we play according to the rules of Dublin. | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
These two rules have been violated by many people, many times, | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
we have been under attack because of playing according to these rules. | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
We have protected our external Schengen border with | :22:04. | :22:09. | |
a fence that took a lot of money, a lot of human resources, | :22:10. | :22:12. | |
but this is the way how you protect the Schengen zone. | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
We registered the migrants in Hungary | :22:16. | :22:16. | |
according to Dublin regulations, but they left before | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
their asylum procedures would have been carried out. | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
They were the ones to break these regulations. | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
So it is Hungary who plays according to European regulations, | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
And I totally subscribe to those who say we have to accept | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
these regulations and we have to respect them. | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
Pater Szijjarto, thank you very much for talking to us. | :22:35. | :22:42. | |
One of the great paradoxes of politics in the UK at the moment | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
is this, polling shows that getting on for half of the population | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
identify as centrist, and yet the party that is centrist, | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
the Lib Dems, languishes at 8% in the polls. | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
Well, Tim Farron gave his address to the Lib Dem | :22:58. | :22:59. | |
conference today, bad day to get attention, | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
with the Brangelina split story competing. | :23:02. | :23:02. | |
But Mr Farron said, "There is a hole in the centre of British politics | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
right now that is crying out to be filled by a real opposition," | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
so it is interesting to ask whether the Lib Dems | :23:10. | :23:11. | |
are going to fill the hole, or sink through it? | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
They got almost seven million votes in 2010 but lost more | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
so I guess those four million should be first on the target list. | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
at whether those voters are disposed to think Lib Dem again. | :23:22. | :23:29. | |
On his way for his big conference speech. | :23:30. | :23:31. | |
Lib Dem leader Tim Farron waiting for the lights to change. | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
For his party, though, the electoral Green Man | :23:37. | :23:38. | |
could quite possibly never light up again. | :23:39. | :23:43. | |
On the local level they are very cheered up by winning | :23:44. | :23:45. | |
and they've had a large influx of new members into the party. | :23:46. | :23:55. | |
And clearly they see there is an opportunity for them | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
because Corbyn has taken the Labour Party way off to the left. | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
Unfortunately of course, the national picture remains | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
unchanged since before the last disastrous | :24:06. | :24:06. | |
general election result, which is the national polls | :24:07. | :24:08. | |
are still stuck way, way down in single figures. | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
These people have clearly stuck with the party, | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
the 4.4 million voters who voted for them in 2010 | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
In some exclusive polling for Newsnight, | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
What they found should worry the Lib Dem leadership. | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
When asked whether they would consider voting Lib Dem again, | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
75% said they might, with varying degrees of commitment. | :24:36. | :24:37. | |
So it seems the lost Lib Dems might one day be recovered. | :24:38. | :24:46. | |
But when YouGov asked those same people | :24:47. | :24:47. | |
how much they felt they knew about what the Lib Dems | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
stand for these days, a staggering 70% said | :24:51. | :24:52. | |
they were either uncertain or very uncertain. | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
Johnny Oates was Nick Clegg's chief of staff | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
I think this really goes back to our pre-coalition days, to be honest, | :25:01. | :25:12. | |
where we always fought to get attention. | :25:13. | :25:14. | |
It's harder now because of the Scottish National Party | :25:15. | :25:16. | |
position, but it was always hard back then, and I think what we need | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
Probably a Parliamentary by-election that we can win | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
and, you know, there isn't one immediately on the horizon. | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
But that has often been the way that we have cut | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
through back to public attention because then the media | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
have to hear from us and they have to sit up and take notice. | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
Until the media thinks we are relevant, | :25:35. | :25:36. | |
we're not going to get our message across to the wider public. | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
Since the SNP became the third largest party in the comments, | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
the Lib Dems have had to forage for Parliamentary scraps. | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
However irritating the honourable gentleman... | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
Whilst his predecessors had two questions a week, Tim Farron | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
has only had six questions in the 34 PMQs since he became leader. | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
And he will be heard - Mr Tim Farron! | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
I am fantastically grateful to you, Mr Speaker. | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
In today's world, the world of social media, the world of | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
24-hour news, leaders are so important, | :26:18. | :26:19. | |
you see a leader who among the electorate, two thirds of the | :26:20. | :26:26. | |
people don't know whether he's doing well or badly. | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
Half of people that voted for the Lib Dems | :26:30. | :26:31. | |
at the last election don't know whether he is doing well or badly. | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
And among his own supporters, those people who | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
support the Lib Dems at the moment, just under a third don't know | :26:39. | :26:41. | |
That's a really bad position to be in. | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
But no-one can say that Tim Farron isn't ambitious. | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
Today he told his conference he wants to be like this man. | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
the rock star like Liberal Prime Minister of Canada. | :26:53. | :27:00. | |
Trudeau's liberals leapt over an inadequate official opposition | :27:01. | :27:02. | |
to defeat a right-wing Conservative government. | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
Do you fancy doing that? Because I do. | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
In a direct appeal to centrist Labour supporters, | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
Tony Blair's government gave us the national minimum wage. | :27:12. | :27:21. | |
and a massive school building programme. | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
but I will not criticise him for those things. | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
I think Tim Farron was absolutely right to make this pitch | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
for those disenfranchised moderate Labour voters | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
who now feel they have no-one to represent their views. | :27:44. | :27:45. | |
And indeed their worldview, which is essentially a liberal one. | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
The problem is both the Lib Dems and for | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
the moderate Labour Party, there is a gaping hole, | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
not just this tactical hole that Tim Farron was talking | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
about today, but a hole in terms of ideas and vision | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
And until the Lib Dems and the moderate Labour Party | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
or the moderate wing of the Labour Party | :28:06. | :28:07. | |
actually sort that out, what is it that they're actually | :28:08. | :28:09. | |
offering the voters as an alternative | :28:10. | :28:11. | |
One big policy that unites the centrists is staying in the EU, | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
The idea of the Lib Dems concentrating on staying part of the | :28:19. | :28:25. | |
EU is popular with about one in ten of the electorate | :28:26. | :28:27. | |
and about a quarter of their current supporters. | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
That is enough to put it at the top of the list of priorities. | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
But it is by no means overwhelmingly the case | :28:34. | :28:35. | |
thinks yes, that is what they should be doing. | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
These are not easy political times for any leader, | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
we are in a state of realignment and flux. | :28:42. | :28:43. | |
Tim Farron's party has arguably the most to gain. | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
But also perhaps the biggest challenge. | :28:48. | :28:53. | |
Joining me now in the studio is former policy advisor | :28:54. | :29:00. | |
to the Blair and Brown governments, Patrick Diamond, who is now based | :29:01. | :29:03. | |
And senior editor of The Economist Anne McElvoy. | :29:04. | :29:10. | |
Patrick, you are a Labour person. You would not vote Lib Dem even | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
though you're quite centrists. That is part of the problem in a way for | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
the Lib Dems, you are still tribally tied to Labour. Of course the Lib | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
Dems are tied to liberalism which has problems in the world today, not | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
least failing to react to the economic crisis of 2008. And also | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
Liberal politics is in crisis, people are dissatisfied with the | :29:37. | :29:40. | |
state of democracy. That is one issue. In addition the Lib Dems are | :29:41. | :29:45. | |
associated with the period of coalition government. They relied on | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
some historic promises like tuition fees. So now the position is | :29:52. | :29:58. | |
weakened. Taking the bigger picture, 45% of people say they are centrist, | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
the Lib Dems have eight, the two big parties, the Tories still jostling | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
for position, is happening? Most people would identify as centrists | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
but they mean many things by that. Then you have a fragmentation on the | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
left, the Corbin Labour Party, moving further to the left than in | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
living memory. So new Labour is ill-defined and on the right you can | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
see the potential, Theresa May trying to glue together the right of | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
her party and more progressive, liberal part of the party. George | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
Osborne went out and used the word liberal as much as the word | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
Conservative. That is where the fight is that hole in the middle and | :30:53. | :30:58. | |
perhaps the Liberal Democrats are too associated with recently being | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
in government and suffering that backwash. They have lost a lot of | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
body mass. Patrick, it was the financial crash, that funded to the | :31:07. | :31:15. | |
system and the people in the middle, it is also the right of the Labour | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
Party, the leadership election last year, Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham | :31:20. | :31:24. | |
did not quite have a convincing story. There is a crisis of ideas | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
and it feels as if the whole of the centre-left does not have a story | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
about Word wants to take the economy or politics. That is the real | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
vacuum. You can talk about leadership, the structure of | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
political parties, but also ideas. And the financial crash was so | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
tumultuous, it shook up the liberal capitalist market order and the | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
centrists were saying we just need to tweak this. We did not need | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
tweaks but radicalism, the bankers to be brought to heel. And the | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
Liberals seem too cautious. When we look at this crisis of liberalism, | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
we are in danger of presenting the kind of SA as to what is wrong. If | :32:10. | :32:15. | |
you look across Europe, in some places you get the left coming in, | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
in Spain for example, but also in many places the response is to go to | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
the right. Saint liberalism does not have a narrative, centrist parties | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
have often just said come with me, trust me. We will be able to answer | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
difficult questions by our disposition. Tony Blair said, I have | :32:38. | :32:46. | |
the answer to everything. It was so vague, the third way, basically it | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
is saying trust me because the Liberals have the better answers | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
overall. That is the confidence that is now lacking. You said they do not | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
have a good story and they do not have a charismatic leader, a person | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
who sounds like they have got a grip. I'm a bit worried when | :33:07. | :33:13. | |
everyone says, almost as if listening to some people in your | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
film, if you have a policy forum that it would emerge, a genie | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
emerging from a body to lead. -- from a bottle. Tony Blair to evoke | :33:24. | :33:32. | |
him, as a charismatic leader, if you lead they will follow. He was | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
trusted even in difficult times. Then Christian democracy follows, if | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
you have a Tony Blair then new Labour follows but for the Liberals, | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
I suppose you have to go to Canada and Justin Trudeau. It is | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
interesting, when arguably the liberal disposition could be | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
powerful, if you think of the questions dominating politics today, | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
the relationship between the individual and the state, between | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
central government and devolution, there are questions about future | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
relations with Europe and internationalism. These are | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
questions where liberals should have some things to say. So I do not | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
think it has run aground and is no longer relevant, but it is | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
struggling I think in the UK context to apply its values and connect with | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
people politically. Certainly around the world, and Justin Trudeau is a | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
good example, that charismatic leader, they are there. But we are | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
living through circumstances in which the extremes, but populist | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
left and right, seem to be gaining political ascendancy. Thank you very | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
much. If you like to think that modern art | :34:44. | :34:44. | |
is a lot of hot air, you'll like the new work | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
by the wunderkind British artist We're not talking a duct | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
for a new shower stall here, this is a shimmering aluminium tower | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
50 metres high, and it's You can admire it on the Greenwich | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
Peninsula not far from the O2. Our man Stephen Smith | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
went to see it. It's more like One Flew Over The | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
Cuckoo's Nest. It feels amazing, it's such | :35:07. | :35:28. | |
a sort of huge thing. It has fire escapes inside, | :35:29. | :35:42. | |
it has chimneys inside, it has flues inside, | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
it has gantry cranes. And there are all these fire | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
exits, all these things So it really is an | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
architectural response. And am I right in saying this | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
might be a door here? Yeah, this will be the way that | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
you access the towers if any of the flues need servicing | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
or the lights need changing. This sort of strange triangular | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
door that the workers Or Spider-Man could live | :36:07. | :36:08. | |
here, one of the other. Until now, your best | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
chance of seeing the work of Conrad Shawcross | :36:15. | :36:25. | |
was at an art gallery. Where his chunky, kinetic pieces | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
have a pleasing heft and twang. For his next trick, Shawcross | :36:29. | :36:38. | |
was invited to design a chimney for an industrial plant supplying | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
hot water to 15,000 homes here. I was approached a few years ago | :36:46. | :36:51. | |
and I entered into a competition, so I was competing | :36:52. | :36:58. | |
against other artists. This was such a different thing | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
for me and I kind of almost wrote this e-mail saying, I'm sorry, | :37:05. | :37:07. | |
I cant come up with an idea, Then I was like, no, | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
I've got to try and do this. This is a way I can really | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
prove my mettle, to see if I can It was all actually done | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
with pieces of paper. So it was actually quite simple, | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
just placing a piece of spare paper and creating in a very analog way | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
a kind of sculpted surface. One of the things in the brief | :37:28. | :37:37. | |
that they talked about was trying to transform this flue | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
into something else. So there was this sort of element | :37:41. | :37:41. | |
of disguise or cloaking, this idea of something pretending | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
to be something else. It took me down the road | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
of camouflage and the way things But then that took me down looking | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
at dazzle camouflage in the First World War | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
and camouflage in general. Then into things like | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
Cubism and David Bamberg. The gasometer that is just behind | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
us, the interference pattern at the front and back, | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
trying to create a skin that would somehow make it more | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
arresting, but yet disappear. I imagine there's always a slightly | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
heart in mouth moment when, as the architect, | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
you show your plans to the guys There was a lot of stuff that didn't | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
make a lot of sense to them. And there were a lot of meetings | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
with just sort of 20 blue-collar guys just sitting round a table | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
with me trying to explain this sort of optic effect to people | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
and how important it was. Did you hear what | :38:40. | :38:41. | |
they were muttering? There must've some people who didn't | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
get it, but hopefully now I don't know whether you would | :38:45. | :38:49. | |
consider this public art, but it's come in for a bit | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
of a bashing recently. I don't describe | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
this as an artwork. I think it's an architectural | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
response. I think public art is a very | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
difficult thing to get right. You do have to swallow your ego | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
a bit and really respond to both space, concept, history, | :39:07. | :39:09. | |
and all of those things. This will look really powerful | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
when someone is doing the washing up each night, | :39:16. | :39:17. | |
they will see the sun set behind it. And you'll get this very | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
interesting, alive kind of effect, where you just move your head | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
slightly from side to side and it creates all these different | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
sort of patterns. Have you tested it, so it | :39:27. | :39:28. | |
won't set cars alight? The panels are all completely flat, | :39:29. | :39:37. | |
so there's no kind of concave So we haven't looked into that, | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
but it doesn't seem to be an issue because there | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
is no lens effect. So we have your word, | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
really, don't we? He's used to people seeing | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
his work in galleries, but now you can clock it | :39:50. | :40:04. | |
from the Blackwall Tunnel approach. It's out of the frying pan | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
into the fire for Shawcross as his chimney puts its mark | :40:08. | :40:09. | |
on the skyline of the big smoke. All over the world, sober media | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
outlets have been pondering today on how to justify their coverage | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
of the break-up of Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt by trying to find some | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
serious theme to connect to it. I'm not going to deny, we've had | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
that discussion ourselves. But we did find this | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
particularly moving. Angelina Jolie speaking | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
about her marriage in November on NBC's Today show, | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
after the release of the movie, In the Sea, which she wrote, | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
directed and starred in along It's about a disintegrating | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
marriage. Well, I think, one, I'm counting | :40:43. | :40:53. | |
on the audience to know that if it was close to us at all, | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
we could never make this film. It's because we're actually | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
very, very stable. I think we have more | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
moments where I say, Just know what you're good at, | :41:06. | :41:07. | |
know what you're not. So yeah, I do have my like, no, | :41:08. | :41:17. | |
no, I'm going to get | :41:18. | :41:21. |