11/10/2016 Newsnight

Leaving the EU was supposed to get us back the billions we send

If we vote leave we can take back control of our borders and huge sums

of money, ?10 billion a year net. We reveal how the government

is considering continuing to pay billions to Europe for access

to the single market I was getting beaten up for 72 hours

on all the networks for Locker room talk, what ever

you want to call it. Donald Trump's behaviour

may outrage millions, but are some just as ready to ignore

it for their dream of a better life? I don't think it can get any

worse than it is now. I don't know if we'll ever see

someone like this again. The plan to memorialise

Oskar Schindler in the famous factory where he saved more

than a thousand Jews So was Schindler more

a crook, and a Nazi Spy I'll be asking an historian

how we should view him. The clamour at Westminster for MPs

to have a vote on its Brexit strategy before triggering

the formal process for leaving the EU will reach the floor

of the House tomorrow in a Labour led debate, but what will that

strategy actually be? There is one aspect of Britain's

relationship with Brussels on which she has been deafeningly

silent - the billions we contribute Could that be because we won't be

getting them back any time soon? Our political editor

Nick Watt has the story. Every week we send ?350 million to

Brussels. Money that is wasted. Remember that talk about ?350

million in the referendum campaign and how it would be coming back

after we left the EU? I be noticed hardly anyone in government is

talking about that now -- have you noticed hardly anyone. To everyone

here this morning, and the millions beyond... When Theresa May laid out

her red lines Brexit she spoke about sovereignty and immigration but

pointedly said nothing about getting her money back. Newsnight has

learned that senior Whitehall officials believe the UK may have to

make generous contributions to the EU even after Brexit as a way of

securing preferential trading terms. One member of the Cabinet has told

Newsnight that the UK is likely to have to pay quite a lot to secure

access to the single market and an insider has described this as the

dog that has embarked. First they will have to contend with vote Leave

campaigners. It was part of the holy trinity of the Brexit campaign, you

can't have one without the other, that this what we campaign for and

that is why the British people voted Leave, we have the bargaining chips

and there is no need for Theresa May to capitulate, and if she does she

might find herself out of a job because that is not the Brexit that

the British people voted for and that is not what even her own

backbenches and some of Cabinet team voted for. Some members of the

Brexit secretary David Davis's camp have said the UK should no longer

make payments to the EU but Newsnight understands that officials

are wondering whether the UK may end up paying into a fund to help

develop new EU member states in Eastern Europe, Poland but like to

preserve the bite of its citizens to work in the UK, may decide it has

more to gain from financial support -- Poland would like to preserve the

right. I imagine we will have to pay something close to what Norway pays.

Charles Grant is convinced that Theresa May is keeping her options

open. The fact that Theresa May has singled out the fact we will not

accept the European Court of justice rulings and that we will restrict

immigration but has said nothing about budget contributions makes me

think she might be prepared to make such contributions, to a development

fund for Eastern Europe that will be a quasi-EU budget. Some were Finn

campaigners are -- some Leave campaigners are sanguine about this.

It might be the case that we have to contribute to stabilise their budget

for maybe 3-5 years but the point is, at the end of that we can say

no, we don't want to put a penny more into your kitty and we don't

want to contribute your budget and that choice will be with us. The

chairman of the House of Commons Treasury select MIDI says Britain

might need to make a payment in perpetuity. -- -- we want to fall

back immediately on WTO rules, that would risk an economic shock and an

economic downturn given the high degree of trading at the moment

between Britain and the EU. It was mixed signals for the Prime Minister

this week as she met fellow EU leaders, but back home one of the

leading lights of the Bo Diddley camp said they would be comfortable

with the UK making half of its current contributions -- leading

lights of the vote Leave camp. Nick Watt reporting -

the government has told us they're not providing a running commentary

on their negotiating position, but we have been very clear that

all decisions about taxpayers' money Joining us is John Redwood MP -

a leading Brexit campaigner. All this talk about what Brexit was

actually four, what do you think it is for? It is very clear, we voted

to leave, that is what it said on the ballot paper and be consistent

slogan of the campaign was to take back control and when we were asked

for more detail we always itemised borders and money and laws. It was

very clear what we were voting for. Money was very clear. It was a

matter of contention how much it actually was. This question ?350

million a week, it was brandished on buses and spoken about, but it is

not being spoken about now. Quite rightly the Prime Minister is not

going to give you a running commentary. It is silly of the BBC

to run these stories. She mentioned immigration. We have not sent the

letter and there are no negotiations on anything because we have not even

notified them formerly we are leaving which she says she will do

early in the New Year and you can't make up these stories because some

official in Whitehall is not happy. They are not made up. I'm sure the

officials exist, but they are not speaking for the government, and as

you have reported the government is not going to provide a running

commentary and there is no shred of evidence that the government wishes

to give away this money. If we gave away the full net contribution. ?10

billion. That would be twice as much as the amount we have to pay in

tariffs, so that would be a very stupid deal. She said in her speech

about sovereignty and immigration, but she did not talk about the money

at all. Money is part of sovereignty. What do you think of

the idea of a contribution? You are not sovereign if you have to keep

paying money away to a foreign power. It depends how you are

paying, if you are paying to a different fund. Not necessarily

money that is going into a EU budget. It is a stupid level of

detail which is not on the government's agenda and not part of

any formal discussions. If there is a situation where we dealt with free

movement of people and where we had access to the single market. Where

we have control of it? Yes. We will have access to the single market,

America and China have access to the single market, but they don't have

any special deals with the European Union. You don't understand what the

issue is. At the moment, the question of financial service, of

huge importance, there has to be a dear? There are various ways this

can be done, the United States has lots of good access to the European

market. Do you realise there are many more passports on the continent

into London because we have the biggest market than passports out of

London onto the continent? Why do these continentals want to lose

their passports? The ones I speak to want to keep their passports and we

will say to them they can keep their passports and we will have our own.

It has to be a negotiation. It doesn't have to be. You think we

should send a letter in get out, I know that. And offer them very

generously to carry on trading as we are at the moment, they have a

massive surplus with us and that suits us well, and when they reflect

on it, the member states will say this is what they want. Is Angela

Merkel going to say I'm recommending a 10% tariff on German cars? She

will not say that. Francois Hollande, is it going to say to

French agriculture, I recommend you pay a high tariff into Britain when

you sell cheese and wine? No way. If there is a negotiation and it comes

down to a contribution, a financial contribution into a development of

East European countries. You pay them money to buy their imports,

absurd. There are officials who have a different view, apparently. I

don't think you will find the Brexit ministers have a different view, to

the extent they are allowed to have one. If David Davis, Boris Johnson,

Liam Fox, the Brexit is committed they failed to get a deal without

financial contributions from Britain into a EU fund, should they resign?

-- the Brexiteers. This is a set of silly questions. We haven't even

sent the letter and I've made it very clear that there is need to pay

money into the EU budget because they want to sell us their goods.

John Redwood, thanks for joining us. "The shackles are off", Donald Trump

announced today on twitter after House Speaker Paul Ryan became

the latest senior Republican to back away from the candidate,

following the publication of a video showing Trump bragging

about groping women. He went on to say that "disloyal"

Republicans are more of an impediment to victory

than as he called her "crooked Then he went into Twitter over drive

throwing insults at John McCain Many in both parties,

Republican and Democrat have been wondering aloud how

it is that the election race, What's going on that so many

will vote for a candidate who stands Gabriel Gatehouse has been

to the town of Youngstown, Ohio, Trace the arc of American

history and it runs In the golden age of postwar

America politicians came to Youngstown with the promise

of an ever brighter future. As the country thrived,

so did this city. In Youngstown today there

is a feeling that America Donald Trump promises to make

America great again. And beyond the bluster,

the buffoonery, the offence of his campaign, that is a message

that resonates deeply Youngstown was once

at the heart of a thriving A place of opportunity

and hard work. A place where each generation

could expect to be a little more Somewhere along the way

something went wrong. We need to, for lack of a better

term, stop the bleeding here. We've lost enough and we

can't stand any more. In Ohio, the average household

is nearly $10,000 a year worse off than it was at

the turn-of-the-century. Not a bigot, just a thoughtful

American father of four who sees no future for his family

in the status quo. You cannot have a new car

and a new house and that's why, the idea that we would have it

better than our parents, We've done a real good job

of creating entry-level positions. You know, there is a new McDonald's

open, you know, minimum wage, Plaza Doughnuts opened its doors

on the 22nd of November 1963, the day John F.

Kennedy was shot dead. In that America the Democratic party

could rely on the blue-collar vote. What he stood for in 1963

has nothing in common with the Democratic party

of today. They have lost touch with us

as the working class. They don't represent us,

and the Republican side don't And now we have a man who is

standing on the outside of that. Trump is effectively

a third-party candidate. In our quest to understand this

phenomenon we are going to be spending time with people who work

two, even three jobs People look at Donald Trump

and they say he is a clown, he's a buffoon, he's

a bankrupt businessman. He took the risk

and he created jobs. Obviously he knows much

more about business He does not know as much

about having a second This is true, this is true,

he knows probably nothing The steel mills began

to close in the late 1970s. Throughout the 80s and 90s

and into the new century In 40 years the population

of Youngstown has shrunk by half. Even in the suburbs, behind a facade

of affluence, many middle-class families are barely clinging

to a lifestyle they could once More than likely I am

thinking our kids will If you walk around there are so many

people looking for work When she lost her job

as a technician in a medical centre, Carrie and her husband Anthony set

up a real estate business. They went bankrupt and Youngstown

took yet another hit. Why do you think Trump is the person

who can sort that out? My version of that is

he's not a politician. They've had control for so long,

it's always been career politicians that run,

there has never been anybody It's the same old, that is all

you're going to get, He could shake it up to such

an extent that it could fall apart. No, because I don't think it can get

any worse than it is now. It's never going to get better

and this is like our one chance I don't know if we'll ever see

somebody like this again. Some of the other things that

people, that have made people feel uncomfortable,

especially some of the remarks he has made about women,

does that bother you? I think our media

slaughters him all the time. I mean you turn it on and they just

rip him apart constantly. And that makes me like him more,

they are actually doing a bad job, if they want me to dislike him

they are making me like him more because I look at the media not

liking him, the Republicans who don't like him,

the Democrats who don't, there are so many people,

I've never seen so many people Do you have any more to say

about those comments Trumps remarks about women may

eventually prove to be his undoing. I don't even think she is loyal

to Bill, you want to know the truth. Donald Trump has charged

into Washington wielding And really, folks really,

why should she be, right? Yet millions of Americans

are still willing him on. He calls his opponent a traitor

and a criminal. He wants to ban Muslims

from entering the US. He's even refused to reject

the support of the Ku Klux Klan. But he presents these

remarks as an attack But if I get elected president

I will bring it back. You won't find much

support for Donald Trump His assault on the norms

of political discourse feels dangerous, as if it

could legitimise a racist backlash. They need to reel him

in and check him. Ryan Gilchrist has run this barber

shop for 20 years. Like most people in Youngstown

he voted for Obama. But after eight years

he says little has changed. I was glad to see that a black

man achieved that. On those premises, and those

premises only am I glad But, did he really help

us in this community? I'm not going to say

that he really did. Many will vote for Hillary but many

won't vote at all. Somehow in this election it's Trump

who's taken on the mantle for change and even here there are

a few who think Trump Maybe it's a Hail Mary,

what we call a Hail Mary, just throw the ball up and see

who catches it. But it would be great

to have a different view, even if it's just for four years,

just for four years, just give this man an opportunity

to see what he can do differently. There's a battle going on that's

as much about what can be said As the gap between rich and poor has

widened so too has the gulf between liberal and conservative

America. And in that space the Trump

candidacy is formenting There are still blue

collar jobs in Ohio. This company makes parts

for pressurised storage tanks. Chad, who we met

earlier, works here. Among these men there

is a feeling of alienation. A sense that they've lost control

of America's cultural identity. I understand the gay thing

and I can live with all that, but when we start supplying

bathrooms and different types of rooms and all this other kind

of stuff and titles, things for people that don't

want to be considered a man or a woman I think

we are going too far. It does feel, I don't know,

maybe you don't feel it, You know, because you are a racist

or a bigot or a homophobe, You're no longer allowed

to have an opinion. And that's a key thing

about Donald Trump isn't it, he says things that nobody

else says, right? I don't always agree

with everything that comes out of his mouth but,

he says it. And we shouldn't be

afraid to say it. You know, that shouldn't be

a problem, here of all Whatever happens to Trump,

the political parameters Many people see their country run

by an elite whose allegiances, cultural and economic,

lie not with them but with other You know, what do we produce

that's being exported? And this in a way is the system

that the whole globalised world is now based

on and Trump is saying... Why do we care about

the global system? Everything about Trump's campaign,

from his crude rhetoric to his cut out the dead wood attitude,

it all adds up to one This is America, where you can

still have it all. The story of America today is not

one of universal decline. In many parts this is

still a country of vast But the middle-class is no

longer growing. 20 miles south of Youngstown

is the great Ohio River. It forms in Pennsylvania, flows west

to the Mississippi and then south This artery which has transported

pioneers and traders, weapons and steel, has been

a witness to the building of America The Trump phenomenon transcends

the traditional divisions It's an expression of a much more

fundamental shift in This is about a breakdown in

the relationship between the people America is a country

where rituals matter. In Youngstown's relatively affluent

suburbs the high school football These are people who have

a track record of picking We've come here to catch up

with Carrie, whose daughter is busy out there somewhere waving

the flag for her team. For Carrie, her conservative values

are best served by a man who threatens to bring

down the establishment. People in Britain and in Europe

and in other parts of the world are quite worried by some

of the things Donald Trump says. To me I think it's time to put

America first, I really, I feel like what's going on right

now, it isn't working so why not try If it fails, we've failed under

Obama. It's worth the risk

is what you're saying? I think we have to try

something different, America is contemplating

a leap into the unknown. The normal rules appear

to be suspended. Their standard bearer may be

an offensive showman but millions still believe he's the one to make

America great again. Gabriel Gatehouse reporting -

joining me now from New York is Catherine Rampell

who is an opinion columnist good evening Catherine. Before we

talk about the Twitter storm tonight from Donald Trump can we talk about

Youngstown, it was quite clear that these are people who have thought

about this a lot and whatever flaws Donald Trump as they are willing to

overlook them or they are irrelevant to them because they think they've

got the last throw of the dice with him. Yes I think that's exactly

right. They think that politics as usual is not helping them, that the

politicians who are already in Washington, a contingent that is

apparently in cahoots with Hillary Clinton, do not have their best

interests at heart. Donald Trump represent something else. Maybe

that'll be something bad, maybe it will be something good, he is like

an experimental drug, you will try something different and maybe the

side effects will be terrible but maybe there will be an upside. I

think that's the psychology around a lot of the fervour supporting Donald

Trump. After Paul Ryan the house speaker said he would no longer

support Donald Trump Donald Trump said the shackles were off and a lot

of people tweeted goodness me we did not know they were on in the first

place. I wonder if in these last few weeks things will get not only dirty

but also divisive within the Republicans? The Republican National

committee has come out behind him but 40 senior Republican senators

and Congress have come out against him. 30 of whom have actively said

they would vote for him. Yes, the question is how many will join them.

There were a number of politicians who came out against Donald Trump,

Republicans from his own party, immediately after that table leaked.

After the debate happened on Sunday night when Donald Trump did not come

out and completely implode, that seemed to staunch the bleeding. If

Republicans are not wholeheartedly endorsing him it does seem to have

stopped the steady trickle away from his campaign. For several months

now, arguably since he started over a year ago there has been an uneasy

relationship between the Republican leadership in the United States and

Donald Trump where they have not been wholly supportive of him but

they are afraid of alienating his devoted followers, the Republican

base. So going forward, they are having to balance whether they

should openly condemn him, whether they should openly and endorse him,

perhaps vote for his rival Hillary Clinton who is despised by the

Republican base, whether they should do all those things and potentially

risk turning they are more loyal followers against them because those

followers are also devoted to Donald Trump. Yes, and this idea that he is

emerging as a third-party candidate in a sense, an independent

candidate, and when all the tawdry stuff comes and goes and goes round,

fundamentally what people are looking for is an answer to their

economic woes and they don't see that with any of the elites in

Washington. They don't seem to, there is also a

question about how much this is based on economics and economic

stagnation and I feel for the Americans who feel their standards

of living have not improved and in fact they might have deteriorated.

There's another side to Donald Trump's appeal, the angry white,

feeling disenfranchised voter but people who feel like there face in

society, relative place, has been falling and there are minorities who

are rising maybe at their expense, they see this as a 0-sum game, and

there is a very large part of his rhetoric which is explicitly

appealing to those feelings of racial resentment, ethnic

resentment, so it is not entirely about economics, although that is

clearly a part of the picture. Thanks for joining us.

Now to a Grande Projet, that you might have noticed

Newsnight has developed a fondness for discussing.

Yes, it's London's Garden Bridge project.

According to a report today by the National Audit Office

government ministers have repeatedly handed over public money

against official advice so that now the taxpayer stands to lose

?20 million if the bridge project is cancelled.

The idea is the Londoners to have a beautiful way to cross the river

Thames on foot, but there has been opposition to this idea from the

very beginning and some people say it is a vanity project, of Boris

Johnson and the former Chancellor George Osborne, but as the costs

have crept up it is currently ?185 million, and as revealed by

Newsnight, the funding shortfall has grown, those concerns are being felt

more widely. Today the National Audit Office has disclosed that at

the outset officials in the Department for Transport thought

there was a significant risk that the garden bridge would approve poor

value for money for the taxpayer. -- proved. Despite that ministers

ploughed ahead, agreeing to fund the project to the Chudinov ?13 million.

-- to the tune ?30 million. The concerns about value for money,

though, meant that the government initially placed a cap on how much

could be spent before building work started. But we learned today that

they increased it on three separate occasions. The Department for

Transport's financial exposure of how much they would lose if the

bridge failed increase Tom and original ?8.2 million to ?25 million

-- increased from an original. It is slightly lower now because the

Transport Secretary has reduced the amount of costs he is willing to

cover. The big jump was too much for top officials, and having originally

not encouraged the original cap, they have now sought ministerial

direction and they have asked ministers to take responsibility for

a decision they don't agree with. Philip Rutland wrote to the then

Transport Secretary expressing his concerns.

A civil servant asking for ministerial direction is not common,

recent example was over the funding of the children's charity Kids

Company, but despite concerns raised by his top officials, the then

Transport Secretary Patrick McLoughlin agreed a further ?50

million of taxpayers money to be put potentially on the line, because he

thought failure to underwrite the garden bridge would increase the

risk of it failing altogether and if that happened the 35mm pounds of

public money already spent would be gone -- 35mm pounds. The one

question remaining unanswered, why was it so important for this project

to go ahead? We have officials at the Department for Transport saying

this is high risk and poor value for money and they were repeatedly

overruled by ministers. What we don't know is what it was given so

much priority. We may not know the answer to that yet but today's

report leaves little doubt about the difficulties facing the garden

bridge. There remains a significant risk that the project will not go

ahead. Schindler's Ark by Thomas Keneally,

and the Speilberg film inspired by it, Schindler's List,

brought to the world versions of the story of Oskar Schindler,

a double dealing Nazi party industrialist whose actions saved

more than 1,000 Jews. But plans to turn his now derelict

textile plant, which was the only Nazi concentration

camp on Czechoslovakia, and where he is reputed to have

planned his act of heroism, into a museum to Schindler,

have run into opposition. There are other versions

of the Schindler story which are much more complex,

and for some Czechs, the fact that their countryman

was a Nazi spy is a reason not His name is synonymous throughout

the world with heroism. Nazi businessman Oskar Schindler,

played here by Liam Neeson in Stephen Spielberg's classic

Schindler's List, was portrayed in the film as an almost

saintly figure. But the real Oskar Schindler,

it seems, might not have His factory which once saved

the lives of more than a thousand Jews is now derelict,

but plans to turn it into a museum have met opposition

in what is now the Czech Republic. Schindler, who spied

on Czechoslovakia for the Germans before World War II, is accused

of being a national traitor. He is remembered by many

as a drinker, a womaniser, One writer has even

accused him of lying That Schindler was no

saint is not disputed. But, say his defenders, a flawed

character did not prevent him So, have we been hoodwinked

by Hollywood into believing Or do the imperfections

in his character only serve to make his story

all the more remarkable? Dr Helen Fry is an historian

and Honorary research fellow Do you understand why there is this

conflict over the establishing of a museum to him? Yes, the difficulty

is the character of Oskar Schindler, very complex, but he is also viewed

as like a traitor because he was spying for Germany as a Czech

national, which is now the Czech Republic, in the 30s. In the barn up

to 1938, before Germany overran Czechoslovakia in 1939 -- run up.

And he was also involved in the plans for the invasion of Poland?

Absolutely, he was arrested by the cheque covenant, which was then

check Slovakia -- the Czech government. The land was given over

to Germany, he was released, which is remarkable, as part of the

agreement. In 1993 he had his title of righteous Gentile and the Jews

recognised his heroism, is that enough? In his lifetime, that is

quite rare, because often it takes a long time to be back nice and it

needs eyewitnesses, and that is the crucial thing and one of concern,

with the passing of eyewitnesses, how stories and others like this are

told. Interesting. Eyewitness stories are now being denied by some

people. And yet you think eyewitness was the best form of testament?

There is a worrying development in what was the former Eastern Bloc, in

the Czech Republic, and I've also seen this in the concentration camp

north of Berlin, which was behind the Iron Curtain at one point, this

denial of Jewish suffering. In Sachsenhausen, for example, there

was a denial that Jews actually died there, that had suffered there.

Expressed quite openly? Yes, I was told to stop filming, and that was

quite a shock and very disturbing. You do a double check about your

faxes historian and you think, no, I've interviewed people who have

survived and who have survived such an house, but this is mainly a

tribute to Russian suffering -- Sachsenhausen. There has been an

upswing in this kind of revisionism? More studies need to be carried out

into whether this is part of a trend of a rising anti-Semitism or whether

this is a anti-Jewish... It is not based on historical reality, that is

the danger, and when you have a coming from the mouthpiece of

politicians in the Czech Republic, that is very dangerous, because they

are respected. The other way to put this is on the balance, and some

people in the Czech Republic would say that it is no doubt he saved

many Jews but he was also a traitor to their country and they do not

want him lauded because he is such a traitor in the run up to the Second

World War. It is a bit of balance. It is. The Guardian reported about

one of the Czech Republic MPs who has come out and said there is

evidence that Schindler said Jews, -- no evidence that Schindler saved

Jews, that is a very concerning shift towards what is essentially an

anti-Semitic Holocaust Miles Storey and we have got to be alert and

guarded and we cannot assume that in every generation that these stories

are safe -- denial story. You hope the museum will be built? I hope so,

I hope there will be enough people east and west to come together to

make it happen. Thanks for joining us. Britain has become a

record-breaker. Guinness officials have confirmed that the new

Queensferry Crossing is the world's largest freestanding balanced

cantilever. For a short while at least until it connects at both

ends, but for now we can enjoy this in all its world beating glory.

A bit more cloud around and a bit more breeze, not as Chile to start

tomorrow morning. Generally more cloud in the skies above, cloudy in

eastern Scotland and North East