05/01/2017 Newsnight


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05/01/2017

With Kirsty Wark. Is Britain heading for a train-crash brexit? Plus remembering rape campaigner Jill Saward, Obama's legacy and turning off work email after hours.


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It could have been a disaster but Downing Street sees its quick

:00:07.:00:12.

replacement of our ambassador to the EU as a sign that the Brexit

:00:13.:00:15.

But, is there a bigger problem down the line?

:00:16.:00:21.

As European capitals talk up the danger of this kind of Brexit,

:00:22.:00:24.

Britain's most senior EU official tells Newsnight he has strong doubts

:00:25.:00:26.

Can you buy access to the single market?

:00:27.:00:33.

It's not something that's on sale in that way.

:00:34.:00:36.

You're a foreign country outside it and you conclude agreements

:00:37.:00:43.

with the European Union if you want to and it wants to.

:00:44.:00:48.

Also tonight, Jill Saward who died today made history

:00:49.:00:51.

when she waved her anonymity as a rape victim so she could

:00:52.:00:54.

Leading lawyer Helena Kennedy talks about the difference

:00:55.:00:58.

We mustn't be late for the six o'clock whistle.

:00:59.:01:04.

Remember when a day's work actually came to an end?

:01:05.:01:14.

Would you, too, like the right to disconnect your e-mail

:01:15.:01:17.

after hours and just relax, just like in the good old days.

:01:18.:01:20.

That's what the French have decided to do.

:01:21.:01:21.

The appointment of Sir Tim Barrow as Britain's EU ambassador

:01:22.:01:38.

was designed to calm the waters after the turmoil of his

:01:39.:01:41.

predecessor's abrupt resignation and harsh words

:01:42.:01:43.

about the government's muddled thinking over

:01:44.:01:45.

But what about the other side of the negotiating table?

:01:46.:01:50.

Until last week, Jonathan Faull was Britain's top man

:01:51.:02:01.

in the European commission, who worked closely with the EU's

:02:02.:02:03.

chief negotiator Michel Barnier - he's been speaking to our political

:02:04.:02:06.

Jonathan Faull has been an EU life and he has put some questions over

:02:07.:02:19.

the negotiations. As we were hearing, he has said he doesn't

:02:20.:02:24.

believe UK can buy privileged access to the single market. We reported a

:02:25.:02:28.

few months ago that senior Whitehall officials were eyeing this idea

:02:29.:02:32.

because the UK cannot accept the core principles of the single market

:02:33.:02:36.

which is accept Inc free movement of people and the jurisdiction of the

:02:37.:02:41.

European court of justice. What Jonathan Faull is saying, you are

:02:42.:02:45.

either a member of the single market, in which case you accept its

:02:46.:02:49.

rules, or URS foreign country and you negotiate an agreement. -- you

:02:50.:02:57.

are a foreign country. He's also casting doubt over the UK can place

:02:58.:03:01.

and that the Brexit negotiations will begin with hardball tactics

:03:02.:03:06.

from Brussels -- casting doubt over the UK assumption that the Brexit

:03:07.:03:12.

negotiations. He says David Cameron made that calculation and at what

:03:13.:03:17.

happened. But he says that Michel Barnier believes in defence

:03:18.:03:19.

cooperation and he will want to have some sort of in brace with the UK.

:03:20.:03:26.

You have been following the appointment of Michel Barnier, what

:03:27.:03:31.

have you learned? Interestingly, Michel Barnier is quite relaxed

:03:32.:03:34.

about what is going to be a nine-month delay by the UK in

:03:35.:03:38.

triggering Article 50 and his view is thanks very much, plenty of time

:03:39.:03:44.

for the EU to get their ducks in a row, and I also get a sense from

:03:45.:03:49.

Brussels have mixed views on this idea of having a transitional deal

:03:50.:03:53.

to tide the UK over when the divorce negotiations are over. So Ivan

:03:54.:03:59.

Rogers resigned this week, of course. There is an appetite for a

:04:00.:04:04.

transitional deal in Brussels, but massive strings attached, you would

:04:05.:04:09.

have to abide by those core rules of the EU in that transitional period.

:04:10.:04:14.

I've been talking to friends and former colleagues of Michel Barnier

:04:15.:04:15.

and this is my film. A venerable tradition is enjoying

:04:16.:04:29.

something of a renaissance in Europe. The grand tour has been

:04:30.:04:34.

revived as the EU's chief negotiator on Brexit journeys from capital to

:04:35.:04:40.

capital to agree a common front. In contrast to the agonising in Britain

:04:41.:04:44.

which lost its EU and this week, Michel Barnier has so far achieved

:04:45.:04:49.

rare unity on his travels amongst the remaining member states -- lost

:04:50.:04:56.

its EU ambassador this week. He will want to be constructive no doubt,

:04:57.:04:59.

but he will want to secure the best possible deal for the 27 member

:05:00.:05:06.

states of the European Union. A deal which maintains their integrity and

:05:07.:05:12.

their fundamental principles governing their internal market. But

:05:13.:05:17.

who is pitching up in those EU capitals? Is Michel Barnier a

:05:18.:05:25.

European federalist out to punish Britain or a deal-maker who will

:05:26.:05:28.

work hard to avoid a train crash Brexit in which the UK falls out of

:05:29.:05:35.

the EU in a disorderly fashion? Well-dressed, utterly charming,

:05:36.:05:38.

speaks beautiful English, everything is right about him, apart from his

:05:39.:05:41.

views on the European Union, but I think Jean-Claude Juncker picked him

:05:42.:05:47.

deliberately to not see sense and to play hardball with the United

:05:48.:05:58.

Kingdom. Newsnight has embarked on its own more modest grand tour of

:05:59.:06:02.

Europe to find out who the real Michel Barnier is. His story begins

:06:03.:06:13.

in his backyard in the French Alps where he organised the 1992 Winter

:06:14.:06:17.

Olympic Games, one of his proudest achievements. To the Paris a late

:06:18.:06:26.

the Olympics marked him out as a mere provincial politician -- elite.

:06:27.:06:32.

He was not a traditional French politician and he had not been to

:06:33.:06:37.

the right schools and even at times they were a bit sniffy about him.

:06:38.:06:43.

And said things, he's a ski instructor or something, as if he

:06:44.:06:48.

didn't merit these high-level jobs. Perfectly plausible, given our

:06:49.:06:55.

national differences, in a British Cabinet, in a job like a Ministry of

:06:56.:07:01.

transport. I'm not being condescending, but you know what I

:07:02.:07:04.

mean, he would not be Home Secretary or Foreign Secretary, although these

:07:05.:07:12.

days... Within a few years of his triumph at the Olympics he made his

:07:13.:07:15.

first mark the European stage as the Europe minister. He made some useful

:07:16.:07:23.

acquaintances. Michel Barnier hails from the Gaullist tradition in

:07:24.:07:27.

France which is suspicious of what it regards as the Anglo-Saxon world

:07:28.:07:31.

view. But he is no die-hard Gaullist.

:07:32.:08:02.

His Brussels breakthrough came in 2010 when Michel Barnier landed one

:08:03.:08:08.

of the biggest jobs in the European Commission as internal market

:08:09.:08:12.

Commissioner. This gave him oversight in the City of London,

:08:13.:08:16.

prompting howls of outrage. Frenchman, City of London, he will

:08:17.:08:21.

be out to turn it into rubble, but of course he didn't. Dealing with

:08:22.:08:27.

him, in the aftermath of the crisis, very keen to talk about the failure

:08:28.:08:34.

of Anglo-Saxon capitalism, because he knew that played well in

:08:35.:08:37.

continental Europe. Two years later when I was leaving the Treasury, he

:08:38.:08:43.

was more aware of jobs and growth, and when you started but arguments

:08:44.:08:47.

about regulation and the impact on jobs and growth, he got that. So

:08:48.:08:56.

very sharp politician. To some, the silver haired and suave Frenchman

:08:57.:09:00.

had a rather high opinion of himself. Some British ministers or

:09:01.:09:07.

people who have dealt with him thought he was rather vain and I

:09:08.:09:12.

remember someone comparing him to David Miller. -- David Mellor. St

:09:13.:09:20.

walking down the corridor in the Treasury he was stopped and looked

:09:21.:09:23.

at himself in the mirror and comb his hair -- saying, walking down.

:09:24.:09:29.

His track record in Brussels and is a leading French politician made in

:09:30.:09:32.

the natural choice as the European Commission's chief Brexit negotiator

:09:33.:09:36.

but his appointment prompted fears that Britain would have to negotiate

:09:37.:09:42.

its way out of the EU in French. Ever the diplomat Michel Barnier

:09:43.:09:44.

addressed this in his first public outing. English or French? Since

:09:45.:09:53.

that appearance, Jean-Claude Juncker has embarked on a nifty bit of

:09:54.:09:57.

Brussels footwork to have Michel Barnier upgraded to become the EU's

:09:58.:10:03.

overall chief negotiator on Brexit. Crucially he is of the project, he

:10:04.:10:08.

is a true believer in the religion of building a United States of

:10:09.:10:13.

Europe. He is the man Babel trust. I wonder, is he looking to get the

:10:14.:10:20.

best possible deal for German, and factors, French wine producers, who

:10:21.:10:23.

so badly need the British market -- German car manufacturers. Is he

:10:24.:10:28.

going to say, we are not worried about exports were we just don't

:10:29.:10:31.

want to be seen to be giving the British a good deal because if we do

:10:32.:10:36.

that other countries will follow? One of the most senior Brits to have

:10:37.:10:39.

served in the European Commission questions the idea that Theresa May

:10:40.:10:42.

will eventually be able to sideline Michel Barnier tank at a political

:10:43.:10:49.

deal with Angela Merkel if she is re-elected -- and cut a political

:10:50.:10:55.

deal. We should look at the negotiations which took place before

:10:56.:10:58.

the referendum where some similar thoughts were expressed and turned

:10:59.:11:04.

out not to be fully realised. The fact is, they will decide. They will

:11:05.:11:12.

decide. We must hope that we can get as decent a deal as possible but it

:11:13.:11:16.

is ultimately going to be decided in Paris and Berlin and the other

:11:17.:11:22.

member states. Jonathan Faull is doubtful about one idea doing the

:11:23.:11:27.

rounds in Whitehall. Can you buy access to the single market? It is

:11:28.:11:31.

not something which is on sale in that way and I find that rather

:11:32.:11:34.

extraordinary. You remember the single market -- you are a member of

:11:35.:11:41.

the single market as a member of the European Union or Europe foreign

:11:42.:11:46.

country outside it and you conclude agreements with the European Union

:11:47.:11:52.

if you want to and it wants to regarding the way in which your

:11:53.:11:56.

goods and services and capital and people move around. Or you don't and

:11:57.:12:03.

you have a few international rules which apply and that is it, that is

:12:04.:12:09.

the choice to be made by both sides. But the veteran Brussels official

:12:10.:12:14.

who has just retired after 38 years service believes the UK does have

:12:15.:12:19.

one card. Michel Barnier, you should remember, has done a lot of work in

:12:20.:12:25.

recent years on defence and strategy issues and he believes the UK is

:12:26.:12:30.

absolutely crucial to the defence and security of Europe, the

:12:31.:12:36.

continent. And Franco British cooperation in defence and security

:12:37.:12:41.

matters is extremely important and he will want an all Europeans will

:12:42.:12:46.

want away to be found for that to continue. -- will want a way to be

:12:47.:12:54.

found for that to continue. The Michel Barnier grantor will come to

:12:55.:12:57.

an end this spring when Theresa May triggers the formal start of the

:12:58.:13:01.

Brexit negotiations and at that point he will find himself across

:13:02.:13:05.

the table in Brussels from his former Europe minister can spot

:13:06.:13:10.

David Davis. In private David Davis believes there are double Michel

:13:11.:13:17.

Barniers, the hardliner who frustrated the British approaching a

:13:18.:13:24.

meeting last year, but they are expecting him to be a flexible

:13:25.:13:27.

deal-maker when the negotiations are underway. One of his oldest

:13:28.:13:34.

political allies warns Britons work hard on building a political

:13:35.:13:40.

relationship with him. -- to work hard.

:13:41.:14:03.

Our own little grantor is now at an end but Britain will soon move on

:14:04.:14:10.

from five decades of history when it embarked on the process of leaving

:14:11.:14:14.

the EU and the nature of its Depardieu will depend on large part

:14:15.:14:21.

on a French outsider -- of its departure will depend on large part

:14:22.:14:24.

of a French outsider who bears no ill will to the UK, but who will do

:14:25.:14:29.

nothing to undermine his cherished European project.

:14:30.:14:33.

Over the past 30 years, many women who have been raped

:14:34.:14:37.

and particularly those whose ordeal made it to trial, have one women

:14:38.:14:40.

to thank for improvements in the way that sexual violence is dealt

:14:41.:14:42.

with by the police and judicial system.

:14:43.:14:44.

Jill Saward who died today as the result of a stroke,

:14:45.:14:49.

was the first rape victim to waive her anonymity.

:14:50.:14:53.

Aged 21, she suffered terrible sexual violence at the hands

:14:54.:14:56.

of two men who broke into her home, a vicarage in Ealing, West London.

:14:57.:14:59.

She had no problem being described as a rape victim saying that it

:15:00.:15:03.

enabled her to challenge politicians to work for change.

:15:04.:15:05.

Her case was also infamous for the remarks of the judge

:15:06.:15:08.

Mr Justice Leonard who opined that the trauma suffered by

:15:09.:15:11.

This after repeated rape and anal rape.

:15:12.:15:17.

In a moment, I'll be speaking to the QC Helena Kennedy

:15:18.:15:20.

about Jill Saward but first here she is speaking to Jenni Murray

:15:21.:15:24.

I'm not sure whether it was a carving knife or not

:15:25.:15:33.

but it was a relatively big knife, held it on my chin.

:15:34.:15:37.

And said that he was going to cut my throat.

:15:38.:15:39.

I mean, I was trying to calm the situation down by reacting

:15:40.:15:50.

the way I thought they wanted me to react, not arguing

:15:51.:15:53.

But it wasn't the blade edge of the knife that he had.

:15:54.:16:00.

And it was on my chin and I thought, if you're going to cut my throat

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you're not going to get very far with a knife on my chin.

:16:05.:16:11.

And I could be that flippant because it didn't really

:16:12.:16:13.

It wasn't very nice to be burgled but we'd live,

:16:14.:16:22.

It began to be serious when man two took me upstairs

:16:23.:16:32.

and bought me into this room, the spare room, basically.

:16:33.:16:34.

He called me a slut, slag, bitch, cow, things like that.

:16:35.:16:43.

Because I knew that was the only way I could get through it.

:16:44.:16:50.

Just let my body takeover and function as a machine.

:16:51.:16:58.

I don't know how you create a barrier, but I did

:16:59.:17:00.

create a barrier where everything turned off.

:17:01.:17:05.

There are a couple of times when there must have been emotions

:17:06.:17:12.

still there because I could pray that I wanted to get

:17:13.:17:15.

And pray that I would still be able to have kids.

:17:16.:17:22.

You're being forced into a situation where it should be loving

:17:23.:17:25.

You just have nothing, absolutely nothing, you are stripped

:17:26.:17:31.

of everything you've got and you are forced into

:17:32.:17:34.

the situations and to do things that are totally alien to you.

:17:35.:17:38.

And to do things that you have no control over.

:17:39.:17:41.

And because it's a power struggle, really, more than anything.

:17:42.:17:47.

How shocking was it for people to hear Jill Saward give her own

:17:48.:18:12.

testimony. Because the men ten hear Jill Saward give her own

:18:13.:18:23.

testimony. Because the men pled guilty. At that time, we were still

:18:24.:18:32.

having trouble getting this taken seriously as we wanted and this was

:18:33.:18:38.

an example of that. Why Jill Saward was so important was that she really

:18:39.:18:43.

nailed this thing, the chap that only committed burglary got a much

:18:44.:18:50.

higher sentence than those who had committed burglary and had raped

:18:51.:18:58.

her. As she was presented as having survived this trauma intact and

:18:59.:19:03.

presented a good face to the world, somehow it was something that should

:19:04.:19:08.

benefit those who committed the crime. That was extraordinary. The

:19:09.:19:14.

idea that property offences carried heavy sentences than the rape of a

:19:15.:19:21.

woman. The idea of waving anonymity. That was incredibly courageous. In

:19:22.:19:26.

one way, you could say that her life was not taken over by the rape but

:19:27.:19:32.

it was defined in some degree by it. It couldn't ever be less traumatic

:19:33.:19:37.

for other women but she meant that there was more support for other

:19:38.:19:43.

women. Some survivors of rape who do talk about it, they feel that it

:19:44.:19:48.

becomes the defining thing and they don't want it. In a way, she

:19:49.:19:57.

accepted it as in some ways what made her the person she was. It was

:19:58.:20:02.

important that she gave voice to what she had experienced. She

:20:03.:20:07.

actually phoned me at the time I was interviewed because I was one of the

:20:08.:20:11.

voices that was heard on this subject at the time because I was

:20:12.:20:15.

very unhappy with the way the court was dealing with women in the

:20:16.:20:19.

criminal justice system, she heard me speaking on the radio about it,

:20:20.:20:23.

or television, she phoned my chambers and I called her back. She

:20:24.:20:28.

wanted to know what she could do to help with the campaign. The thing I

:20:29.:20:36.

was very keen on was that we should have proper judicial training.

:20:37.:20:41.

Judges did not understand this. It was clear that Justice Leonard did

:20:42.:20:49.

not understand the level of trauma. Probably ten years later, in the

:20:50.:20:54.

1990s, after I had become a Queens Counsel I did a murder trial in

:20:55.:20:59.

front of John Leonard. Sometimes as does happen when judges are on the

:21:00.:21:07.

circuit, he invited as in to have lunch with him and his wife at the

:21:08.:21:10.

end of the trial and he said to me, you gave me a hard time over the

:21:11.:21:17.

vicarage rape case. I said, well, Justice Leonard, it was because I

:21:18.:21:23.

really did feel that the judiciary were not understanding this at the

:21:24.:21:27.

time. He said, I got it wrong. He should have said that in public. I

:21:28.:21:33.

wonder about the question of anonymity. We go backwards and

:21:34.:21:40.

forwards. Is there a sense if women spoke out more it wouldn't feel like

:21:41.:21:44.

a different crime. Something that has stigma around it. Just a

:21:45.:21:53.

straightforward act of violence. It is more horrific because it abuse is

:21:54.:21:58.

something that we keep precious in our lives. That is why it has that

:21:59.:22:03.

other dimension to it. For those who are raped, mainly women, I know

:22:04.:22:08.

there are male experiences and children, of course but it is mainly

:22:09.:22:13.

women, they feel it is partly about humiliation. Jill wanted to campaign

:22:14.:22:20.

about the level of sexual assault because she was forced to do other

:22:21.:22:25.

things. Other things were done to her. It wasn't just rape in the

:22:26.:22:30.

traditional sense. She was forced to have oral and anal sex. She wanted

:22:31.:22:39.

that changing definition. It was about her being so vocal on it. The

:22:40.:22:45.

idea that rape is only shameful for the rapist and not the victim.

:22:46.:22:50.

Absolutely. We are still not getting it. Part of it was that Jill in many

:22:51.:22:56.

ways was able to get the public support because she was the daughter

:22:57.:23:03.

of a vicar, it happened in the cause of a burglary and so on, for many

:23:04.:23:09.

women it happens in privacy. They may have been drinking. So all the

:23:10.:23:14.

other things around militate against the woman getting justice and we

:23:15.:23:20.

have to do something about this business of saying that some women

:23:21.:23:23.

are worthy and others are not. We have to get justice for all. Thank

:23:24.:23:27.

you. How does President Obama leave

:23:28.:23:29.

America on the world stage? In the run up to the inauguration

:23:30.:23:32.

of his successor, he's been trying Today, he sent a letter

:23:33.:23:35.

to the American people. In it, he highlights some

:23:36.:23:39.

of his foreign policy achievements, including the withdrawal

:23:40.:23:43.

of most US forces from Afghanistan and Iraq, the building

:23:44.:23:45.

of a counter-terrorism capability to take on IS and preventing

:23:46.:23:47.

foreign attacks on US soil. So, how strong is America's military

:23:48.:23:50.

power and influence after eight Here is our Diplomatic

:23:51.:23:53.

Editor Mark Urban. This was what Obama's surge

:23:54.:23:59.

in Afghanistan looked like up close in 2009 -

:24:00.:24:04.

but it, like the drone operations he ramped up

:24:05.:24:11.

in neighbouring Pakistan, claimed lives, but hardly turned

:24:12.:24:14.

the security situation around. This week, though, a chance for him

:24:15.:24:18.

to point up his own achievements as Commander-in-Chief -

:24:19.:24:22.

and thank those The core al Qaeda

:24:23.:24:24.

leadership that attacked us Countless terrorist leaders,

:24:25.:24:29.

including Osama bin Laden, are gone. Ending wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

:24:30.:24:37.

was a key part of Obama's platform. Whereas once there were 180,000

:24:38.:24:43.

US troops in those countries, that was cut down to as low as

:24:44.:24:48.

a few thousand at one point, but it's now back up at 15,000

:24:49.:24:52.

because of the Islamic State group So, the president leaves office

:24:53.:24:56.

with Americans still fighting You just doubled the number

:24:57.:25:03.

of forward militarily advertisers in Iraq,

:25:04.:25:11.

you're flying a major combat air war in both Iraq

:25:12.:25:16.

and Syria And that is quite a large military contribution and it

:25:17.:25:23.

certainly doesn't have any clear end While gearing the US military

:25:24.:25:29.

to fight insurgents, its ability to take on another state

:25:30.:25:35.

has declined significantly The Army shrunk from 48 to 32

:25:36.:25:38.

brigade combat teams, the average age of a US air force

:25:39.:25:47.

plane has grown to 27 years, and, critically, readiness

:25:48.:25:53.

has dropped to the point where, for example, the US Navy

:25:54.:25:56.

may have 10 aircraft carriers, but it only has enough

:25:57.:25:59.

combat-ready jets to deploy We have large forces deployed

:26:00.:26:02.

for 15 years around the world. Sometimes doing, even not dangerous

:26:03.:26:14.

or really demanding flying missions, in some cases,

:26:15.:26:17.

you do start losing your edge. When sequestration was first

:26:18.:26:22.

implemented in 2013, the US Air Force, for example,

:26:23.:26:25.

which I'm more familiar with had almost half of its aircraft grounded

:26:26.:26:28.

for a Now, that is very dangerous

:26:29.:26:30.

for our countries. Some blame for hollowing out

:26:31.:26:38.

of American capability can be put on 'sequestration' the tactic

:26:39.:26:41.

used by a Republican-controlled But as a matter of policy,

:26:42.:26:43.

President Obama has cut military spending as a proportion of GDP

:26:44.:26:51.

from 4.6% in 2009 to 3.3% today. And while the Pentagon

:26:52.:26:59.

still spends huge sums, wayward projects like

:27:00.:27:03.

the trillion dollar F35 fighter, or the $7 billion

:27:04.:27:08.

a ship Zumwalt destroyer have absorbed large amounts with little

:27:09.:27:12.

capability, so far, to show. Stephen Rademaker was

:27:13.:27:17.

Assistant Secretary of State for International Security under

:27:18.:27:26.

George W Bush and Julianne Smith was Deputy National Security Advisor

:27:27.:27:29.

to Obama's Vice President Joe Biden. Good evening to you both. First of

:27:30.:27:42.

all, Stephen, George Bush left office with 180,000 troops still in

:27:43.:27:49.

Afghanistan and Iraq. Barack Obama pledged to bring them home and

:27:50.:27:53.

brought home all but 20,000. That was a job well done, wasn't it? I

:27:54.:28:00.

think everybody is happy to have a smaller foreign deployment than we

:28:01.:28:06.

did a decade ago. But I think it is pretty clear, particularly looking

:28:07.:28:11.

at the situation in Iraq, that Obama's withdrawal of those forces

:28:12.:28:16.

in time to be able to declare while running for re-election in 2012 that

:28:17.:28:21.

he had pulled out every US soldier was premature. He gave a speech

:28:22.:28:24.

yesterday celebrating the fact that he had reclaimed half of the

:28:25.:28:29.

territory conquered by Isis but they had no territory when President

:28:30.:28:36.

Obama took office. To reclaim half of what they had taken is small

:28:37.:28:41.

accomplishment in that perspective. They had, Obama allowed -- had Obama

:28:42.:28:52.

allowed a more robust presence to remain in Iraq, they wouldn't have

:28:53.:28:58.

gained so much. So it was politically expedient to remove so

:28:59.:29:04.

many troops from Iraq but it didn't make military sense. So the chances

:29:05.:29:12.

of going into a foreign conflict again are minimal? First, let me say

:29:13.:29:19.

that the president feels that he was elected and I think this is

:29:20.:29:23.

legitimate, he was elected to withdraw troops from Iraq and

:29:24.:29:30.

Afghanistan. Many of our military commanders did not want troops

:29:31.:29:35.

there. It was his key priority. Specifically talking about Iraq, I

:29:36.:29:39.

would say that the president made an effort to get the status of forces

:29:40.:29:44.

agreement with Iraq to ensure that we could keep at least 10,000 troops

:29:45.:29:48.

on the ground in Iraq and we were not successful in brokering that

:29:49.:29:55.

agreement. Therefore, the president decided for the safety of those

:29:56.:30:00.

troops to pull them out of Iraq. Moving on to Syria, we have a

:30:01.:30:03.

situation where you were part of drawing that redline on chemical

:30:04.:30:09.

weapons and then, of course, nothing actually happened. It gave a very

:30:10.:30:14.

clear signal that America isn't prepared to re-engage and is

:30:15.:30:15.

withdrawing from the world stage. The specific decision on the Syrian

:30:16.:30:25.

red line created concerns amongst our allies and partners around the

:30:26.:30:28.

world, about American credibility and leadership, but that said, many

:30:29.:30:33.

allies and our partners looked at the President's decision that came

:30:34.:30:37.

after that to seize on the opportunity to work with countries

:30:38.:30:42.

around the world, to rid Syria of its chemical weapons stockpile and

:30:43.:30:45.

they look at that with admiration and are grateful to see those

:30:46.:30:49.

chemical weapons gone. Regarding the red line, do you think troops should

:30:50.:30:55.

have gone in when the red line was crossed by Assad? I don't think any

:30:56.:31:01.

president should draw a red line if he doesn't have the intention to

:31:02.:31:03.

enforce it which proved to be the case in Syria which has seriously

:31:04.:31:08.

because she was for the credibility of the United States. -- has serious

:31:09.:31:16.

repercussions for the credibility. The Iranians, the Russians, they

:31:17.:31:19.

have stepped into Syria, there was an attempted diplomatic settlement

:31:20.:31:25.

in Syria just a week ago, the United States doesn't even have a seat at

:31:26.:31:29.

the table. Nearly 500,000 Syrians have died. Enormous humanitarian

:31:30.:31:40.

catastrophe and a bar President Obama looked the other way. In a

:31:41.:31:47.

way, he has attempted a different kind of engagement, for example,

:31:48.:31:52.

more easily with Cuba, but much more difficulty with the Iran nuclear

:31:53.:31:58.

deal, and in the end he has bought at least time with Iran. The Iran

:31:59.:32:08.

nuclear deal was a huge mistake, and in nine years from now we will

:32:09.:32:11.

recognise what a disaster it was when Iran begins to exercise the

:32:12.:32:14.

rights that President Obama has agreed that they will have two

:32:15.:32:18.

advance their nuclear weapons programme in the future. In Syria,

:32:19.:32:26.

there were options other than the deployment of US military forces and

:32:27.:32:30.

President Obama declared that the US would seriously support moderate

:32:31.:32:37.

opposition forces at one stage, over $500 million was spent on this

:32:38.:32:40.

effort according to news reports, and in the end it was not deployed,

:32:41.:32:48.

that was not a serious effort. On the question of where this leaves

:32:49.:32:53.

America's position as a result of that policy, we have Assad

:32:54.:32:59.

emboldened and Russia emboldened, Libya is a mess and you could say

:33:00.:33:04.

ten years down the road there will be a difficult conversation with

:33:05.:33:10.

Iran. Coupled with the reduction on military spending, and you wonder

:33:11.:33:14.

whether America has the same influence it had on the world stage

:33:15.:33:19.

eight years ago. First of all, regarding the Iran deal, let's think

:33:20.:33:23.

back to a couple of years ago when Iran was weeks away from acquiring a

:33:24.:33:28.

nuclear bomb and we now have more time. Is it perfect? No, it isn't,

:33:29.:33:34.

and Iran could cheat and we will have to deal with this question ten

:33:35.:33:39.

years from now. I will take the ten years over the months and weeks that

:33:40.:33:42.

we were facing earlier just a few years ago. In terms of where we are

:33:43.:33:48.

today versus when he came into office, let's think about where we

:33:49.:33:51.

work with almost 200,000 troops deployed overseas -- where we were.

:33:52.:33:57.

The image of the United States in tatters based on the war in rack and

:33:58.:34:01.

the global war on terror and questions about torture and our

:34:02.:34:06.

values -- the war in rack. Not much of a focus on the Pacific where a

:34:07.:34:10.

lot of our interests lie. Open ended questions about US counterterrorist

:34:11.:34:16.

actresses and how we were carrying on with counterterrorism operations

:34:17.:34:25.

around the world -- US counterterrorist. Thanks for joining

:34:26.:34:28.

us. For most people,

:34:29.:34:31.

the working day used to have a beginning,

:34:32.:34:35.

and an end. Workers clocked on, and off,

:34:36.:34:36.

and when they came home, their time was, more

:34:37.:34:39.

or less, their own. But, over the years,

:34:40.:34:42.

as communications technology developed, the boundaries

:34:43.:34:44.

began to blur. Mobile phones meant that people

:34:45.:34:48.

could receive work calls wherever they went and e-mail,

:34:49.:34:53.

the Internet, and smartphones allowed employees to do most things

:34:54.:34:56.

remotely that previously could only Video calling has now

:34:57.:34:59.

made face-to-face The revolution has allowed firms

:35:00.:35:03.

to cut back on physical infrastructure and enabled workers

:35:04.:35:10.

who'd previously struggled to get to the office

:35:11.:35:13.

to enter the workforce. But the breakdown of boundaries

:35:14.:35:17.

between office and home has allowed work to encroach evermore

:35:18.:35:20.

into people's nonwork life. Some firms are fighting back

:35:21.:35:27.

by enforcing a strict curfew after which no work is allowed and,

:35:28.:35:31.

in France, a new law obliges companies to draw up

:35:32.:35:34.

guidelines to protect workers So, do the negatives

:35:35.:35:36.

outweigh the positives, or do we need to learn to live

:35:37.:35:39.

with blurry distinctions Well, here to discuss

:35:40.:35:42.

are Matthew Gwyther, the editor of Management Today,

:35:43.:35:49.

and Julia Hobsbawm, a Visiting Professor

:35:50.:35:51.

at London's Cass Business School and the author of a forthcoming book

:35:52.:35:54.

- Fully Connected: Surviving and Thriving in an Age of Overload -

:35:55.:35:57.

about 21st century connectedness Good evening to both of you. Let's

:35:58.:36:13.

look at the French law, 35 hour week and now the idea that you have the

:36:14.:36:17.

right to disconnect. Could it work here? When I first heard this story

:36:18.:36:23.

about France, you think, it's another one in the series of things,

:36:24.:36:29.

35 hour week, ten weeks holiday, they must be a nation of shirkers,

:36:30.:36:32.

but they are more productive than we are. The idea is a good and

:36:33.:36:43.

civilised one, because there will be people watching this programme who

:36:44.:36:49.

will then lean back and send a fewer e-mails to their staff to keep them

:36:50.:36:52.

on their toes and that is not a very civilised way of carrying on. Can

:36:53.:36:59.

you disconnect? You can. You have got to find what makes you relaxed

:37:00.:37:02.

and happy, there are many people who want to have time off between five

:37:03.:37:07.

and eight in the evening if they want to spend time with children,

:37:08.:37:09.

and then work in the evening, nothing wrong with that. Is that not

:37:10.:37:17.

being enslaved? We are in slave, there's an epidemic of overload and

:37:18.:37:21.

a blurring of boundaries between work and home life and we are all a

:37:22.:37:25.

blended self now. Technology is meant to make life more flexible. It

:37:26.:37:32.

hasn't, it is a complete myth, have the evidence of the academic studies

:37:33.:37:37.

of the last ten years shows nine years ago the... There was a study

:37:38.:37:43.

published which said e-mail had brought about a 46% increase in the

:37:44.:37:49.

matter what people had to do, technology doesn't set you free, but

:37:50.:37:52.

it might mean you can work from the checkout or from the bathroom. This

:37:53.:37:58.

French study doesn't seem to hit the spot. Rather the change in the

:37:59.:38:05.

French law. Productivity is stagnant around the world, that is the issue,

:38:06.:38:09.

and so you can say is enshrined that you don't have to do is e-mail but

:38:10.:38:14.

why do people not do very well at work, that is what interests me. I

:38:15.:38:18.

wonder if you think that there are mental health issues to being

:38:19.:38:22.

Salmond about this idea of being on all the time. -- to be summoned. We

:38:23.:38:33.

don't know much about social health, about how we connect and when we

:38:34.:38:37.

connect and how much time we have to be on or offline, there are only 160

:38:38.:38:42.

hours in the week. We sold enormity and complexity, we are sold a vision

:38:43.:38:48.

of limitless nurse and we don't have much time. Who dictates

:38:49.:38:56.

connectedness? The employer or the employee? Is it the import who sets

:38:57.:39:07.

the culture? -- the employer. 120 billion work e-mails are sent around

:39:08.:39:11.

the globe every day, Andy Reid think they all have a purpose and they are

:39:12.:39:19.

all necessary? -- and do you think. Stack chat, messaging, so many ways

:39:20.:39:22.

of getting in touch, sometimes you can't escape -- snap chat. This

:39:23.:39:28.

impacts on decision-making, people don't have time to think and walk

:39:29.:39:31.

away from it and come back? Absolutely. The worst thing you can

:39:32.:39:39.

do is to have your digital assistant, your iPhone, plug it in

:39:40.:39:45.

last thing at night and it is their first thing in the morning. You

:39:46.:39:49.

should leave it downstairs and get away from it, otherwise you simply

:39:50.:39:54.

don't have time. Do you think companies now, because this is just

:39:55.:39:59.

the start of this connectedness in a way? This is the start of

:40:00.:40:04.

recognising connectedness and its discontents because we have been in

:40:05.:40:07.

thrall to it and we have been in love with it. To be always on is a

:40:08.:40:13.

good thing, we have thought, so I welcome the cultural signifier of

:40:14.:40:17.

the French saying it is not that great. Ipsos MORI gave me some data

:40:18.:40:26.

which suggests the British are more worried about being digitally

:40:27.:40:30.

connected than the French. What should we do? Have a set of

:40:31.:40:35.

strategies around who we connect with and when we connect and what we

:40:36.:40:39.

do around information in exactly the same way we do around our physical

:40:40.:40:43.

and mental health. The World Health Organisation used the phrase social

:40:44.:40:48.

health 70 years ago and we have never in fact done anything about

:40:49.:40:49.

it. Thanks for joining us. We leave you with the sad news

:40:50.:40:54.

that the last remaining ABC cinema closed its doors for the final time

:40:55.:40:59.

this week in Bournemouth. The company Associated British

:41:00.:41:01.

Cinemas launched in 1927 and became a familiar

:41:02.:41:06.

sight around the country. The closure is in sharp contrast

:41:07.:41:09.

to the glamour of the '60s when the brand attracted major stars

:41:10.:41:11.

to its screens. I never know what to

:41:12.:41:14.

get for presents. Can't remember the size

:41:15.:41:16.

of women's legs, feet. Don't know the sort

:41:17.:41:24.

of things they read. Now, why didn't I think

:41:25.:41:26.

of that before? If there's one thing that pleases

:41:27.:41:29.

everybody, it's this. A gift and a greeting

:41:30.:41:38.

card all in one. Buy an ABC seat token

:41:39.:41:42.

from the young lady at the pay box and give your friends the best

:41:43.:41:45.

Christmas or birthday gift they've ever had,

:41:46.:41:47.

namely happy movies. A bitterly cold start for everyone

:41:48.:42:04.

this morning, and parts of rural Oxfordshire woke

:42:05.:42:05.