09/01/2017 Newsnight


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09/01/2017

In-depth investigation with Emily Maitlis. Topics include Theresa May's first six months as prime minister, press regulation and the resignation of NI's deputy first minister.


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1 the Prime Minister takes a wrong turn, drives down a cul-de-sac and

:00:00.:00:10.

has to do a U-turn, could happen to anyone really. Six months into the

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job, is she still on track? Tonight we ask if Theresa May can be

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anything more than the Brexit Prime Minister. Can she construct a

:00:19.:00:22.

credible programme of social justice, of the kind she wants? We

:00:23.:00:27.

have a once in a generation chance to step back and ask ourselves what

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kind of country we want to be. We'll ask those who've had some tensions

:00:34.:00:37.

with their own leaders, here in the studio. Also tonight, This woman's

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overdosing on heroin, but she won't die because her friends have to hand

:00:47.:00:50.

a drug called Naloxone. British addicts who OD face a much harsher

:00:51.:00:56.

path. They thought I was dead. They were dragging me down a landing to a

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stair well, to get rid of my body. It was only the fact that an

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off-duty nurse was walking past and rang an ambulance that I ended up

:01:05.:01:11.

going to the hospital. And this... And here come the Germans now led by

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their skipper Nobby Hagel. The Greeks led out by their veteran

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centre half. Why do we all think all philosophers are Greek or German?

:01:25.:01:27.

Should British universities start looking to Africa and Asia for the

:01:28.:01:29.

meaning of life? How does a Prime Minister,

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swept to power on a Brexit vote, consumed in office by Brexit

:01:35.:01:39.

negotiations, avoid being defined Today, we got a sense of how much

:01:40.:01:43.

that matters to Theresa May, as she spelled out what she intends

:01:44.:01:49.

to make the soul of her premiership: a world where everyday

:01:50.:01:52.

injustices were addressed, where people that had been

:01:53.:01:55.

locked out of political discourse were welcomed back

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and where politicians who'd talked about social justice

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had failed to deliver. Until you remember that the PM was,

:02:02.:02:03.

of course, the Home Secretary So who, exactly, ARE these misguided

:02:04.:02:08.

politicians of whom she speaks? Today, she defined

:02:09.:02:15.

herself unflinchingly As one of the least glitzy occupants

:02:16.:02:30.

of Downing Street, Theresa May feels no need to hog the limelight. But

:02:31.:02:36.

today, the Prime Minister stepped up to reveal more of what drives her

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when she outlined her mission for those people who feel left behind by

:02:45.:02:48.

today's world. A shared society doesn't just value individual

:02:49.:02:52.

rights, but focuses more on the responsibilities we have to one

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another. It's a society that respects the bonds that we share, as

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aye union of people and nations. The bonds of family, community,

:03:03.:03:06.

citizenship and strong institutions. The Prime Minister's vision of a

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shared society is designed to differentiate her from both Margaret

:03:12.:03:15.

Thatcher and David Cameron. She believes the state should play a

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decisive role in helping those who are struggling, in contrast to Lady

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Thatcher who once questioned the very existence of society and David

:03:24.:03:28.

Cameron who responded to that by questioning the extent of the role

:03:29.:03:33.

of the state. Allies say that talk of a personal philosophy may be a

:03:34.:03:38.

bit far fetched. If May-ism means anything, I don't think the Prime

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Minister is setting out to embrace some sort of ideological stance, but

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it's about a rooted conservatism. It's an understanding that there are

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a group of people, quite a large group, struggling get by, who feel

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they're working harder and harder and questioning whether they're

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getting the rewards. She has an implicit understanding of that.

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She's seeking to address it in policy concerns. It will be six

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months this Friday since Theresa May entered Downing Street. Critics say

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that even after all that time, it is still difficult to Pinochet down

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exactly where she stands. I think Theresa May, not being insulting, I

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don't think she has a list of policies she's burning to implement.

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I think she has some instincts. She has a direction of travel. More than

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Gordon, she's made up her mind to be a departure from her predecessor.

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Theresa May's friends say her Premiership marks a seismic shifts

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from her immediate predecessors, both permly and politically. --

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personally and politically. One minister said, we should think of

:04:39.:04:43.

her as a cobra snake, who watches, waits, calculates and then pounces

:04:44.:04:47.

with deadly effect. On the wider political level, allies say she

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understands more deeply than others that the Brexit vote represented a

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cry from people who feel disconnected and will easily turn to

:04:57.:05:01.

populists if mainstream politicians do not respond to their concerns.

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From the Brexit vote there's a real desire for control. Now whether that

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is control of our borders and control of migration, whether it's

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control of our own laws, it's very similar to the idea of people who

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are struggling get by and feel that the system isn't quite working for

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them. I think a clever Prime Minister, which clearly the current

:05:23.:05:26.

Prime Minister is, can link those two together. Brexit catapoulted

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Theresa May into Number Ten as the second unelected Prime Minister in a

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decade after groun. One of his senior aides -- after Gordon brown,

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one of his senior aides sees paralegals. He's she's taken off

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from an elected Prime Minister. The elected Prime Minister who came

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before her, as with Gordon brown had their own manifesto. Like him, she's

:05:56.:06:00.

playing with the idea of how much she wants to inherit from her

:06:01.:06:05.

predecessor and how much she wants to move on from him. Theresa May is

:06:06.:06:11.

faring better than his former boss, though she will always face one

:06:12.:06:14.

overwhelming challenge. There's only a certain amount of time that this

:06:15.:06:18.

honeymoon period will last. That's when you've got to get clarity about

:06:19.:06:21.

what you're governing projects are about. Clearly that's what her

:06:22.:06:24.

speech was about today. The interesting thing is whether no

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matter how hard she and her team try, will we ever remember Theresa

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May's Government as anything other than the team that managed Brexit?

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Over the coming weeks, we will learn more about our Prime Minister as she

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delivers further speeches on housing and on a new industrial strategy.

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Whether she likes it or not, the greatest attention will be on a

:06:46.:06:46.

speech she will deliver on Brexit. Nicky Morgan, Education Secretary

:06:47.:06:53.

under David Cameron's And Liz Kendall, Labour MP

:06:54.:06:54.

and former leadership contender. We heard there, Stuart emphasising

:06:55.:07:07.

it's a question of time. Have you closed your eyes during that speech,

:07:08.:07:13.

would you actually hear anything new between Theresa May and the PM that

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you worked under, David Cameron? Do you hear a difference? I think you

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do because of the seismic event that happened on June 23 last year. I

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think what Theresa May is saying is it's shaped by what has happened. It

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was interesting in the film talking about a mandate and Theresa May not

:07:32.:07:35.

having been directly elected. But there was this big event, this

:07:36.:07:39.

change, where people said, hang on, I'm not so convinced about the

:07:40.:07:44.

direction that we are heading in, 52% said that. 48% said actually we

:07:45.:07:49.

want to remain in the EU. So she has now got to bridge that gap. I think

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it's really encouraging actually that we're not just talking about

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Brexit, important though that is, but she has chosen her first big

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policy statement on the issue of mental health, which is something

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close to many people's hearts in this country. She's going to be

:08:05.:08:11.

defined by Brexit and a hard Brexit of her own making. The Government is

:08:12.:08:16.

going to be overwhelmed with dealing with that issue and I think the

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interesting thing is just how easily she has put to one side what is in

:08:23.:08:26.

the national economic interest, which I don't believe is a hard

:08:27.:08:32.

Brexit, and then saying she wants to put immigration and leaving the ECJ

:08:33.:08:38.

over what might be in the interests of jobs and businesses. For a

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Conservative Prime Minister to put at risk their dearly held economic

:08:43.:08:46.

competence will be a strategic mistake. What you're proving

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already, is that she can't escape from being the Brexit PM. This

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speech was all about trying to be something else, whatever Brexit is

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or isn't, I want to be the person of social justice. I want to be the

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person who puts mental health, you mention, irreproachable as a subject

:09:02.:09:05.

and yet, there will be a lot of people who say - why didn't she go

:09:06.:09:11.

further That Is The Spirit? Why didn't she do -- why didn't she go

:09:12.:09:18.

further than that? Why didn't she bring in brave measures that weren't

:09:19.:09:23.

in the Autumn Statement. We're expecting speeches in the next few

:09:24.:09:27.

weeks on housing, on industrial strategy. We have the Budget coming

:09:28.:09:32.

up in March, which is a time for new money. Social care is hugely

:09:33.:09:37.

important. But I take issue with Liz on one thing. We don't disagree

:09:38.:09:43.

necessarily on the Brexit issue too much, but governments have to be

:09:44.:09:46.

able to do more than one thing. Even when something is as massive as

:09:47.:09:51.

Brexit, if you think about the Second World War, even then Butler

:09:52.:09:55.

was coming up with the 1944 education act. Government's have to

:09:56.:09:59.

do more. The country and the people need more to be done. That's true.

:10:00.:10:04.

But May doesn't have the real vision about how the economy needs to

:10:05.:10:07.

change. Look, the underlying challenges we've got with the

:10:08.:10:12.

economy, that existed before Brexit, is that it's too focussed on too few

:10:13.:10:16.

sectors and regions. It's too reliant on house prices and cheap

:10:17.:10:21.

credit. And it's too shorp term, whether that's in terms of

:10:22.:10:24.

investment from businesses, investment in infrastructure or

:10:25.:10:28.

investment in R We have not seen anything near the scale of the

:10:29.:10:33.

changes that we need. In terms of the speech today, if she puts aside

:10:34.:10:37.

Brexit, as she is trying to... She can't. Right. Did you hear anything

:10:38.:10:42.

in that speech, same question to you, that you wouldn't have welcomed

:10:43.:10:47.

from a Labour leader? Here's a Conservative Prime Minister talking

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about the importance of bringing in the forgotten, of looking after the

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vulnerable, the people who are just managing, of the people who felt

:10:55.:10:58.

locked out of discourse. That must be music to your ears. I have long

:10:59.:11:02.

believed and argued that globalisation has brought Big Ben

:11:03.:11:06.

fits for -- big benefits for some and has left too many people. You

:11:07.:11:10.

see that particularly in towns, counties and villages where some of

:11:11.:11:15.

our cities have benefitted. Look, only London and the south-east have

:11:16.:11:18.

seen their growth get back to pre-crisis levels. We are investing

:11:19.:11:22.

too little in infrastructure and R Unless we see big changes

:11:23.:11:26.

there, we are not going to deliver an economy that works for everyone.

:11:27.:11:29.

This was about personality as much as anything. It was, I described it

:11:30.:11:34.

as the soul of who she wants to be. You had a highly publicised spat

:11:35.:11:38.

with her. I wonder whether you find an authenticity in the woman who is

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now Prime Minister? I think Theresa May is always authentic. She

:11:45.:11:47.

certainly keeps her cards close to her chest. All her colleagues would

:11:48.:11:51.

say that. Those who've known her for many years - You talk about the

:11:52.:11:56.

Loughborough market text, the barometer of wearing the ?1,000

:11:57.:11:58.

leather trousers in the Loughborough market, when you take this idea of

:11:59.:12:02.

shared society rather than Big Society, can you sell those as a

:12:03.:12:04.

Conservative in Loughborough market? Yes, absolutely. Of course, I can.

:12:05.:12:10.

On the issue that arose before Christmas. Sometimes in politics,

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feelings run high and things get too personal. That was not a good place

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for any of us, me, to be and the Conservative Party before Christmas.

:12:19.:12:23.

Are you regretting it? Sometimes you say things and it doesn't get to the

:12:24.:12:27.

heart of the issues that people want you to discuss, like the speech

:12:28.:12:30.

today. Yes, I think actually funnily enough I was at a drug

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rehabilitation in Loughborough on Friday morning, and a gentleman

:12:35.:12:37.

there who'd come from elsewhere, "The thing I really like about

:12:38.:12:40.

Loughborough is the community spirit." I think what Liz is saying

:12:41.:12:44.

again, what politicians who represent seats outside London would

:12:45.:12:47.

recognise, London is a very different place. There is community

:12:48.:12:50.

spirit. I think what Theresa May is saying in the shared society is

:12:51.:12:55.

about communities. But Government has to be involved. Jeremy Corbyn

:12:56.:13:00.

needs to be stronger, this is what we're hearing today, be more

:13:01.:13:03.

aggressive in taking on the things that you're talking about. I think

:13:04.:13:07.

we need to focus on what people want, which is a job that pays them

:13:08.:13:11.

a wage they can live on, a home to call their own, great schools for

:13:12.:13:14.

their kids and you know, if their parents get sick that they're going

:13:15.:13:17.

to have the care they need in hospital and to get back out of

:13:18.:13:22.

hospital. Today, I think, it was a real example of where the Government

:13:23.:13:25.

is so far getting it wrong. Theresa May wanted to focus on mental

:13:26.:13:29.

health, but today in the House of Commons, Jeremy Hunt said the way to

:13:30.:13:32.

deal with the pressures on the NHS and long waits in A is to

:13:33.:13:37.

downgrade the target. That is a weak spot for the Conservatives on

:13:38.:13:40.

health. David Cameron tried to do a lot to get back their credibility on

:13:41.:13:43.

health, if they lose that and make the wrong decisions on Brexit for

:13:44.:13:46.

the economy, I think the Conservatives will be in trouble.

:13:47.:13:47.

Thank you both very much. Some put it down to

:13:48.:13:50.

the Trainspotting generation, the ageing heroin-using population

:13:51.:13:52.

still taking the drug decades on. Whatever the reasons,

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heroin deaths have risen Drug service providers have various

:13:55.:13:59.

tools in their arsenal. One is a drug called Naloxone that

:14:00.:14:04.

reverses the effects of overdose. Paramedics and hospitals use it,

:14:05.:14:07.

but Scotland and Wales have implemented national take-home

:14:08.:14:10.

emergency Naloxone programmes In England, that

:14:11.:14:14.

offer is more patchy. Our special correspondent

:14:15.:14:20.

Katie Razzall has been to Liverpool And a warning, her report does

:14:21.:14:23.

contain scenes of drug It's a side to Liverpool the tourist

:14:24.:14:28.

guides don't dwell on. Sometimes dubbed England's

:14:29.:14:48.

drug abuse capital, addiction here can be

:14:49.:14:49.

shockingly public. Fewer people take heroin these days,

:14:50.:14:57.

but more are dying. The number's doubled

:14:58.:15:01.

in three years in England and Wales to the highest

:15:02.:15:04.

since records began. Philip Connolly is 43, a drug user

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for decades, he's at Brook Place clinic because he

:15:07.:15:17.

says he wants to stop. Since I was about 25

:15:18.:15:21.

I started using heroin. I done Class A drugs

:15:22.:15:31.

at about 25, yeah. Philip typifies the at-risk

:15:32.:15:37.

user, middle aged, often homeless, with other potential

:15:38.:15:50.

health conditions as a result of his I'm back smoking you know,

:15:51.:15:52.

I noticed my breaths are I'm back smoking, you know,

:15:53.:15:58.

I noticed my breaths are Liverpool has the highest

:15:59.:16:04.

rate of people taken to hospital with drug-related mental

:16:05.:16:11.

health or behavioural problems in Heroin isn't just a problem

:16:12.:16:13.

in Liverpool, of course, but critics argue this city isn't using

:16:14.:16:19.

all the tools available to it to This amateur video from

:16:20.:16:22.

America shows Liz, a Her respiratory

:16:23.:16:42.

system has collapsed. Her friends give her a drug called

:16:43.:16:45.

Naloxone, Narcan's the brand name, which has been used

:16:46.:16:47.

by hospitals and paramedics

:16:48.:16:49.

for decades. Naloxone reverses the effects

:16:50.:16:55.

of heroin overdose. It's believed to have saved

:16:56.:16:59.

tens of thousands of Like in some American states,

:17:00.:17:01.

Scotland and Wales now offer take-home emergency Naloxone

:17:02.:17:05.

to addicts and those around them. It's believed, just

:17:06.:17:10.

like in Liz's case, it This is what a Naloxone

:17:11.:17:14.

take-home kit looks like. Dr Abbasi wants

:17:15.:17:23.

a nationwide emergency Naloxone programme

:17:24.:17:25.

across England too. Then wait a few minutes

:17:26.:17:28.

to see if the person is coming back, coming

:17:29.:17:35.

out of the overdose and if the effect is being

:17:36.:17:37.

reversed. At the moment his region, Liverpool,

:17:38.:17:44.

doesn't issue take-home That postcode lottery

:17:45.:17:46.

is repeated across the country. Sometimes you see someone

:17:47.:17:50.

who is really high risk. They come to you and you know this

:17:51.:17:52.

could possibly save their life. They're walking out and you're

:17:53.:17:55.

holding your heart, a phone call or an e-mail from

:17:56.:17:57.

someone saying they've died. It really is something

:17:58.:18:03.

that concerns me as a clinician, when I know

:18:04.:18:08.

something like this they can take away and could possibly, possibly

:18:09.:18:12.

give them an option and keep them I live in a squat back

:18:13.:18:15.

home in Ireland. I woke up and me mate

:18:16.:18:20.

was dead beside me. Gets you to do it again even though

:18:21.:18:22.

you've woken up next to someone And if there was this drug available

:18:23.:18:51.

for you, do you think that It doesn't sound like it's

:18:52.:19:04.

hard to administer. Of course I think it

:19:05.:19:19.

would be a good idea. Especially if you have two people

:19:20.:19:21.

in the house that are Coming off heroin is one thing,

:19:22.:19:24.

staying off quite another. At Genie In The Gutter,

:19:25.:19:29.

a charity supporting recovery through creative arts and other

:19:30.:19:31.

programmes, Michael told me he sometimes slips,

:19:32.:19:33.

on the path away from drugs. But in his 70s and five

:19:34.:19:39.

years clean, after a four-decade affair with heroin that

:19:40.:19:43.

began in Afghanistan. It's only the first

:19:44.:19:46.

once or twice that you experience the depth

:19:47.:19:48.

and the feeling that it gives you. After the second or third

:19:49.:19:50.

time, you are always But you never realise

:19:51.:20:01.

it half the time. They're always chasing

:20:02.:20:07.

this phenomenon from By increasing the dosages

:20:08.:20:10.

and not having the I nearly died a couple

:20:11.:20:15.

of months ago. And they gave me that

:20:16.:20:19.

drug, what's it called? Do you think that

:20:20.:20:22.

drug saved your life? If it weren't for that drug,

:20:23.:20:26.

I wouldn't be here now. When you look around

:20:27.:20:30.

at your friends and people that you've grown up

:20:31.:20:32.

with and people you've met Tommy Allman was a heroin

:20:33.:20:34.

addict for years. Now an outreach worker,

:20:35.:20:53.

he took me on a tour of Liverpool's heroin hot

:20:54.:20:55.

spots, the first, a car park. These are mainly used

:20:56.:20:57.

for injecting into They have these and

:20:58.:21:01.

the green needles. Is it really now a middle

:21:02.:21:06.

aged drug problem? It's between, I'd

:21:07.:21:12.

say between 35, 45. They're dying through other

:21:13.:21:14.

health-related illnesses due to the If I hadn't found recovery when

:21:15.:21:24.

I did, I wouldn't be alive now. Next stop another very public place,

:21:25.:21:32.

beside a main road. This is an unused two

:21:33.:21:42.

millimetre syringe. You could use that

:21:43.:21:47.

for your groin or your arm. We've got a brand

:21:48.:21:50.

new one hit kit there. There will be little areas

:21:51.:21:55.

all round the city centre, like this, where there'll

:21:56.:21:58.

be syringes hidden, just in case they need

:21:59.:22:02.

to come back again. Deserted at night, Tommy told me

:22:03.:22:05.

users come here in the daytime because they need

:22:06.:22:07.

light to see their veins. Yeah, I overdosed on three

:22:08.:22:10.

or four occasions. The worst one being,

:22:11.:22:34.

I was dragged out of a flat They were dragging me down

:22:35.:22:36.

a landing to a stairwell. And it was only the fact that

:22:37.:22:40.

an off-duty nurse was walking past, felt my pulse and rang an ambulance

:22:41.:22:46.

that I ended up going to the hospital and having this injection

:22:47.:22:49.

that woke me back up. If Tommy's fellow users

:22:50.:22:52.

had had take-home Naloxone, they might

:22:53.:22:53.

have saved his life, not left it to chance

:22:54.:22:55.

in a stairwell. But, unlike Dr Abbasi,

:22:56.:22:57.

he doesn't believe the drug should be offered to

:22:58.:22:59.

addicts to use on others. The way I see it, you're giving

:23:00.:23:01.

the drug user an excuse. That's all somebody in addiction

:23:02.:23:04.

needs is an excuse. If you give them one

:23:05.:23:06.

of them packs, they'll be thinking, well, I've

:23:07.:23:11.

got a free out here. I can take as much as I want,

:23:12.:23:13.

because if I go over, someone's Next day, in broad daylight,

:23:14.:23:17.

we came across a man shooting up in the city

:23:18.:23:27.

centre, just metres away from a busy street and car

:23:28.:23:29.

park. He does this five

:23:30.:23:31.

times a day, he said. When you're addicted to heroin,

:23:32.:23:40.

when you actually need it and you're rattling for it,

:23:41.:23:42.

nothing else matters, You will go - if you have to -

:23:43.:23:45.

you will literally stand on the I'd arranged to meet

:23:46.:23:55.

Philip again, in a park where he says he walks

:23:56.:24:08.

to clear his head. So I had money this

:24:09.:24:11.

morning for crack and Will you do that again

:24:12.:24:18.

today, do you think? We saw you yesterday,

:24:19.:24:23.

you said you wanted to get clean. Every time you do those drugs,

:24:24.:24:30.

there's a possibility you might die. I've OD'd several times I've

:24:31.:24:36.

OD'd five or six times. I've been lucky because people have

:24:37.:24:40.

either found me or I was Liverpool City Council

:24:41.:24:43.

told Newsnight it's looking at whether to offer

:24:44.:24:53.

take-home Naloxone to local users in Unless every English

:24:54.:24:56.

region rolls it out, access to a drug that

:24:57.:25:02.

could save lives will be governed by where an addict

:25:03.:25:04.

lives, not what they use. Will the freedom of the press be

:25:05.:25:11.

harmed by a move to make newspapers pay their opponents'

:25:12.:25:14.

legal bills, even if they win? The public has one day left

:25:15.:25:17.

to have their say on these proposals on press regulation,

:25:18.:25:21.

measures which have divided those who report and print

:25:22.:25:23.

investigative stories. Is it endangering one

:25:24.:25:26.

of the cornerstones of democracy, the ability of the press to hold

:25:27.:25:29.

those in power to account? Or simply a move to let those

:25:30.:25:33.

who wouldn't otherwise have the money to take on big

:25:34.:25:36.

newspapers voice their complaint Joining me now, Andrew Norfolk,

:25:37.:25:39.

award-winning investigative journalist who uncovered

:25:40.:25:43.

the Rotherham child abuse scandal, unusually here in London

:25:44.:25:55.

tonight, and Jonathan Heawood, the only regulator so far to qualify

:25:56.:25:57.

for official recognition. Thank you both for coming in.

:25:58.:26:05.

Andrew, you are defending newspapers from not having to go through with

:26:06.:26:11.

this Section 40, why would it affect your work? I think it will have a

:26:12.:26:15.

crippling effect on investigative journalism in this country. One

:26:16.:26:20.

example, the Rotherham story that I worked on for four years. In August

:26:21.:26:25.

20 14th we named a man and accused him of being a serial abuser of

:26:26.:26:31.

children at a time when he had not even been questioned by police, let

:26:32.:26:35.

alone charged with any offence. We spent weeks and weeks, there is a

:26:36.:26:42.

balancing act to be made, can we defend this story if we get sued? We

:26:43.:26:47.

know that it is too. We took a brave decision and published and that is

:26:48.:26:50.

what led to the independent inquiry that found that 1400 girls were

:26:51.:26:55.

abused and led to the Inquirer that sent many men to prison for the

:26:56.:26:59.

first time. If this comes in, the rules would be changed and if we

:27:00.:27:04.

published that story we would know that we would have to pay the costs

:27:05.:27:08.

if we were sued. Even if we have the evidence to defend it, it would not

:27:09.:27:14.

matter if every word was true, if any two bit solicitor wanted to

:27:15.:27:18.

represent this man, if a multimillionaire was involved in

:27:19.:27:22.

something like that, if they decide to sue, we can prove it is true, we

:27:23.:27:29.

can defend it, but we must pay. So if you had taken that story to your

:27:30.:27:32.

editor you think that they would not have dared publish it, knowing that

:27:33.:27:37.

you were a respected, trusted, award-winning journalist? They

:27:38.:27:41.

wouldn't have backed you on that? It remains possible an incredibly brave

:27:42.:27:45.

editor with incredibly deep pockets would risk losing so much money. But

:27:46.:27:52.

if I think about the pressures that would be put on a newspaper with the

:27:53.:27:58.

resources of the Times. I think about where I started on the

:27:59.:28:01.

Scarborough evening News as a trainee, I think of the Yorkshire

:28:02.:28:06.

Post where four of us worked for months on a local government

:28:07.:28:10.

corruption scandal, it seems inconceivable that those newspapers

:28:11.:28:15.

would be able to run those stories. Jonathan, why put such stories in

:28:16.:28:20.

such jeopardy? Why put those newspapers in such jeopardy. B roll

:28:21.:28:24.

back a little. Everyone is trying to make the system more fair. What

:28:25.:28:30.

Andrew has talked about already affects journalists and

:28:31.:28:33.

broadcasters. There is the threat of libel. If you are taking on powerful

:28:34.:28:39.

individuals, companies, politicians, powerful figures, there's always

:28:40.:28:45.

that concern. There is an incentive for someone to sue if they think

:28:46.:28:50.

they could make some money. The leathers and inquiry thinks you

:28:51.:28:53.

should be a new system where there is an independent regulator where

:28:54.:28:57.

people feel they can trust it, they can rebuild trust in the press which

:28:58.:29:01.

sadly is the lowest in this country post phone hacking, it has never

:29:02.:29:06.

recovered. For the public to have confidence in an independent

:29:07.:29:11.

regulator which would protect journalists, publishers should have

:29:12.:29:14.

protections from legal threats. The other side to the story which Andrew

:29:15.:29:18.

is telling, and I have great sympathy for him and admiration for

:29:19.:29:22.

his work. If a journalist like Andrew or his colleagues, if their

:29:23.:29:28.

newspapers joined a certifiably independent regulator as opposed to

:29:29.:29:33.

one that is owned and controlled... So you just sign up to the regulator

:29:34.:29:40.

and the problem is gone? We had a free press in this country for 300

:29:41.:29:43.

years and we have a Royal Charter now. We have a quango. We have an

:29:44.:29:51.

approved regulator, largely funded by a multimillionaire who has his

:29:52.:29:56.

own reasons for loathing one section of our free press. I will come to

:29:57.:30:04.

that in a moment. But it is not unusual for any industry,

:30:05.:30:06.

broadcasters, doctors, lawyers, to have a body watching over them. You

:30:07.:30:16.

have the GMC for surgeons, you know, every single body has this, why

:30:17.:30:23.

should the press be unique? When it is doing its job correctly the press

:30:24.:30:27.

has a fundamental role as the eyes and ears of the public to shine a

:30:28.:30:32.

light in every corner, on the BBC, the GMC, and trade union leaders.

:30:33.:30:38.

The role of the press has always been to be free from any idea of

:30:39.:30:45.

government being able to have evened the shadow of a fingerprint on our

:30:46.:30:51.

throat. This lofty ideal is rather undermined when you look at who is

:30:52.:30:56.

essentially funding the charity that has backed Impressed, Max Mosley, he

:30:57.:30:59.

has his own justification. He's fundened a charity which is

:31:00.:31:06.

funded in press. He has no operational control. Publishers who

:31:07.:31:10.

want to be part afteren independent regulator are free to set up their

:31:11.:31:14.

own regulator, the charter allows for more than one. Ip sow, the

:31:15.:31:19.

current self-regulator could put itself through the hoops, become

:31:20.:31:23.

certifiably independent. One point also, it's slightly ironic that the

:31:24.:31:27.

same publishers so up in arms, we've never seen anything like the

:31:28.:31:30.

coverage over the last three weeks in every newspaper in the country

:31:31.:31:35.

over this issue. Most of the those newspapers in Ireland, regulated by

:31:36.:31:39.

the Irish press Council, recognised in law, overseen by the Justice

:31:40.:31:43.

Minister - I wish we had longer, thank you both very much.

:31:44.:31:45.

Northern Ireland stands on the brink of an Assembly election tonight,

:31:46.:31:48.

as Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness announced

:31:49.:31:50.

his shock resignation from the coalition government.

:31:51.:31:52.

For some weeks now, the Northern Ireland Executive has been under

:31:53.:31:55.

significant pressure following the mishandling

:31:56.:31:56.

of a renewable energy scheme, which could end up costing

:31:57.:31:59.

?500 million, small change at Westminster perhaps,

:32:00.:32:03.

but a vast sum relative to Stormont's small budget.

:32:04.:32:06.

Could power-sharing really be under threat?

:32:07.:32:10.

He's seen four British prime ministers, three First Ministers

:32:11.:32:16.

and has been at the centre of Stormont politics

:32:17.:32:18.

since the Good Friday agreement will stop but after one decade

:32:19.:32:22.

as Northern Ireland steady First Minister this evening

:32:23.:32:25.

-- Deputy First Minister, this evening

:32:26.:32:28.

Martin McGuinness announces almost certainly triggering

:32:29.:32:29.

We in Sinn Fein will not tolerate the arrogance of Arlene Foster.

:32:30.:32:34.

Sinn Fein wants equality and respect for everyone and that's what this

:32:35.:32:42.

So today I have told Arlene Foster that I have tendered my resignation,

:32:43.:32:53.

So I believe today is the right time to call a halt

:32:54.:33:02.

On the face of it it is the fallout from a disastrous renewable heating

:33:03.:33:08.

scheme that has pushed Sinn Fein over the edge.

:33:09.:33:11.

But a number of disagreements over issues such as Irish language

:33:12.:33:14.

funding and redevelopment of the infamous maze prison .2 deep

:33:15.:33:18.

-- point to deeper divisions within the executive.

:33:19.:33:25.

For their part, the DUP refusing to bow to the pressure.

:33:26.:33:28.

Their leader Arlene Foster, the minister responsible

:33:29.:33:29.

for the failing energy scheme, has refused to step aside

:33:30.:33:32.

and the party is bullish about the election.

:33:33.:33:34.

If we are going to the country so be it, let's take it to the country,

:33:35.:33:38.

let's fight along clear lands and I've a message was Sinn Fein,

:33:39.:33:41.

it's very clear, you do not decide who we choose as our leader

:33:42.:33:44.

and you do not decide who we choose First Minister.

:33:45.:33:48.

If we are in a position to nominate an elected First Minister.

:33:49.:33:52.

Such confidence is perhaps not surprising, going to the polls

:33:53.:33:57.

in Northern Ireland solves little, for the last ten years that have not

:33:58.:34:03.

exactly been wild swings in Stormont elections.

:34:04.:34:05.

In 2007 the DUP got 36 seats and Sinn Fein got 28.

:34:06.:34:08.

In 2011, the DUP got 38 seats and Sinn Fein 29

:34:09.:34:10.

and in 2016 the DUP got, wait for it, 38 seats

:34:11.:34:14.

In every year since 2007 there has been a DUP First Minister

:34:15.:34:20.

So it's perfectly possible that on the other side

:34:21.:34:26.

of a bruising election it will be as-you-were at Stormont.

:34:27.:34:29.

At this point, either another solution must be found for the very

:34:30.:34:32.

existence of power-sharing could be under threat.

:34:33.:34:35.

To those who prefer their glass half full, there are grounds of optimism.

:34:36.:34:38.

After decades of violence and factional politics,

:34:39.:34:42.

Northern Ireland finally has a political crisis provoked

:34:43.:34:45.

That in itself could be seen as a sign of progress.

:34:46.:34:53.

Are the great writers, philosophers, artists

:34:54.:34:55.

either because you think it's the stupidest thing

:34:56.:35:01.

you've ever heard or because its so manifestly true it

:35:02.:35:03.

Students at the School of Oriental and Asian Studies in London

:35:04.:35:08.

want to shift the focus away from men like Kant and Plato

:35:09.:35:11.

because they see them as part of a Western canon that hasn't

:35:12.:35:14.

They call it decolonialising the syllabus.

:35:15.:35:16.

Critics call it pandering to a snowflake generation

:35:17.:35:19.

True, traditional philosophy is so homogenous, that

:35:20.:35:24.

when the Monty Python team wrote their Philosophers'

:35:25.:35:27.

Football Match sketch, they could cover most

:35:28.:35:29.

of the philosophers that people had heard of with just two countries.

:35:30.:35:34.

Karl Jaspers number seven on the outside.

:35:35.:35:40.

Schelling's in there, Heidegger covering.

:35:41.:35:47.

And now it's the Greeks, Epicurus, Plotinus no 6, Aristotle.

:35:48.:35:53.

Empedocles of Acragas, and Democritus with him.

:35:54.:35:56.

Joining me now, Kehinde Andrews from Birmingham City University,

:35:57.:36:13.

and Antony Seldon joins us from Oxford.

:36:14.:36:25.

Welcome to you both. Thanks for joining us. I don't know whether

:36:26.:36:31.

watching that Monty Python sketch, you thought, yes, this is what most

:36:32.:36:35.

of the syllabus taught in universities look like. Do you think

:36:36.:36:38.

there is a bigger problem with them? I think that's really the problem.

:36:39.:36:43.

The problem is that the curriculum is so white, it is so euro sown

:36:44.:36:48.

trick that the school of oriental and African studies, the students

:36:49.:36:54.

say they're not learning enough from African and Asian scholars. That's

:36:55.:36:59.

an uproar. What's being said is that the education we're giving is so

:37:00.:37:02.

Pharaoh we don't understand the social world. Totally

:37:03.:37:06.

understandable, but do you think it's more applicable? . I did

:37:07.:37:10.

sociology, looking at history, that's the same. There's a European

:37:11.:37:14.

canon. We are taught this is special knowledge, the idea of the

:37:15.:37:19.

enlightenment that European knowledge is to civilise the dark

:37:20.:37:22.

savage. This goes to the heart of the problems in society today. We

:37:23.:37:25.

need to unpick them so we can move forward. Do you agree with that,

:37:26.:37:31.

somewhere we have got into this canon of cumulative experience and

:37:32.:37:35.

it's just time to blow that up and start again? Obviously not. Much of

:37:36.:37:42.

the greatest works of civilisation, of science and medicine have been

:37:43.:37:47.

discovered whether we like it or not, by white men. I think we have a

:37:48.:37:53.

duty to study the world as it is. But I'm not somebody who doesn't

:37:54.:37:58.

understand and sympathise what's happening in universities. It's not

:37:59.:38:02.

just the students. The universities themselves have a duty and are doing

:38:03.:38:08.

a great deal to make their courses far more global and far more aware

:38:09.:38:15.

of trends everywhere. So I think it's ungenerous of the students to

:38:16.:38:19.

be this extreme. It just needs a sense of balance and proportion and

:38:20.:38:25.

to show respect not just respect for the traditions of universities,

:38:26.:38:29.

respect for the extraordinary achievements that have been created

:38:30.:38:33.

and to understand them yes, in their context, but also to look at the

:38:34.:38:39.

fascinating philosophy which comes from outside Europe. Do you

:38:40.:38:42.

recognise that as an extreme position? I'm not sure what is

:38:43.:38:46.

extreme about students saying we need to learn about other stuff. You

:38:47.:38:51.

can't just have this idea of this European canon. The great white

:38:52.:38:54.

European men have had all these discoveries, that's part of the

:38:55.:38:59.

problem. Actually Plato builds his work from the Egyptian base of

:39:00.:39:03.

knowledge. Before the enlightenment, it's Islamic scholars in the 12th

:39:04.:39:08.

century who are keeping knowledge, curating knowledge, so we could even

:39:09.:39:12.

have physics, when Europe is in the dark ages. The idea that it's a

:39:13.:39:16.

special European knowledge that has changed the world is the problem.

:39:17.:39:22.

That is why the idea of the enlightenment is in it Sol racist,

:39:23.:39:26.

that Europe is there to Eiffelise the darker nations. This must be

:39:27.:39:29.

challenged. That's what academics and students are saying, put it in

:39:30.:39:33.

its proper context. We're conditioned to think they're great

:39:34.:39:36.

because we haven't explored the rest of civilisation. I agree with much

:39:37.:39:42.

of that. University is about challenging received wisdom. Of

:39:43.:39:46.

course, that is right and of course much of the, many of the greatest

:39:47.:39:51.

ideas come from beyond Europe. We know nearly enough about them. That

:39:52.:39:54.

doesn't mean we should denigrate what has happened or pretend that

:39:55.:40:00.

what has happened is necessarily bad or not true. I studied philosophy at

:40:01.:40:06.

university and I wished I'd studied Eastern philosophy which I have

:40:07.:40:10.

found since I left university, so much more interesting and

:40:11.:40:14.

penetrating than so much of the dull Western philosophy I studied. That

:40:15.:40:20.

goes for is much of culture and civilisation too. I'm qualifying

:40:21.:40:23.

supporting what's happening. I am saying that I think it's important

:40:24.:40:27.

just to show proportion and respect. How far would you go? Would you say

:40:28.:40:31.

the enlightenment was racist? Of course it was. It's built on the

:40:32.:40:34.

idea that there is a special knowledge from Europe. We think

:40:35.:40:38.

about something like Kante, so revered. He comes up with the idea

:40:39.:40:45.

of the taxonomy of the races. It's how I wasn't deemed to be a person

:40:46.:40:48.

by him when he was writing. If that's not racism, I don't know what

:40:49.:40:52.

it is. To put it into proportion, with the black studies degree, we

:40:53.:40:56.

don't not teach enlightenment. I teach these ideas, but we put them

:40:57.:40:59.

in the proper context and say there is a place for them and there say

:41:00.:41:02.

reason why they came and there's a kind of society it created. It is

:41:03.:41:05.

not a coincidence that the world looks with a very - It's unarguable,

:41:06.:41:17.

isn't it? So, look, I think that universities are about understanding

:41:18.:41:22.

and in Free Speech and understanding the whole gamut and nature of what's

:41:23.:41:26.

happened in civilisation. That doesn't mean denigrating or not

:41:27.:41:29.

studying people. It means studying people in their context. At the

:41:30.:41:34.

heart, the greatest wisdom of all, is the universality of the human

:41:35.:41:39.

experience and the equality of all people, regardless of gender,

:41:40.:41:42.

regardless of class, ethnicity and religion. I think that is what we

:41:43.:41:48.

should be moving towards. That doesn't mean denigrating any

:41:49.:41:52.

achievements of extraordinary people, who have made civilisations

:41:53.:41:56.

what they are in the past. Thank you both very much.

:41:57.:41:58.

Kirsty will be back in the chair tomorrow. Until then, very good

:41:59.:42:03.

night. Good evening. A chilly, breezy start

:42:04.:42:19.

to Tuesday. But at least there should

:42:20.:42:20.

In-depth investigation and analysis of the stories behind the day's headlines with Emily Maitlis. Topics include Theresa May's first six months as prime minister, press regulation and Martin McGuinness's resignation as NI deputy first minister. Plus should UK addicts have access to an anti-overdose drug, and should colleges eschew western philosophers?