11/01/2017 Newsnight


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11/01/2017

A look at Donald Trump's response to allegations that Russia posseses compromising material on him. Also reporting on conflicting views on the state of the NHS.


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That something Nazi Germany would have done and did do. I think it's a

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disgrace that information that was false and fake and never happened

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got released to the public. That's right, you heard

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America's President-elect compare He thinks intelligence

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agencies spread salacious No, I'm not going to

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give you a question. Fter an electrifying

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hour-long press conference, what more have we learned of Trump,

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the truth, and his relations We've all seen humanitarian crises

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around the world. To use that description of a national Health

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Service was irresponsible and overblown.

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The government tries to paper over growing concern about the NHS.

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Like, I've already made the decision I want to be a girl.

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But I haven't made the decision if I want to do the surgeries.

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Is it right that primary school age children should be permitted gender

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Donald Trump has suggested that US intelligence agencies may be behind

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claims that Russia has gathered compromising information on him,

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and rubbished the news agencies that chose to publish the salacious

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sexual allegations about him from leaked and unverified documents.

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Speaking at his first press conference since July,

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the President-elect reminded reporters just how different

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In an explosive and combative exchange, Trump attacked

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both CNN and Buzzfeed - which he described as

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And he compared the actions of the CIA - who had shared

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the intelligence with him - to Nazi Germany.

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The documents appear to claim Russia had secretly filmed him,

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Donald Trump - and his surrogates - spelled out why none of the facts

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Our Diplomatic Editor, Mark Urban, has pieced together

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With his first press Conference in six months, Donald Trump was bound

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to have been under close scrutiny. So last night's allegations couldn't

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have been better timed, and indeed does make indeed the leaks finally

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pushed into publicly blaming Russia for hacking rivals. As far as

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hacking, I think it was Russia. But I think we also get hacked by other

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countries and other people. And I can say that when we lost 22 million

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names and everything else that was hacked recently, they didn't make a

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big deal out of that. That was something that was extraordinary,

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that was probably China. We have much hacking going on. But if that

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seemed to put the President-elect on the same page as his intelligence

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chiefs, think again. That nonsense that was released by the maybe the

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intelligence agencies, who knows? May be the intelligence agencies,

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which would be a tremendous blot on their record, if they in fact did

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that. A tremendous plot. Because a thing like that should have never

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been written. It should never have been had and it should never have

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been released. The allegations published last night have been known

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to some reporters for months. But it was the fact that intelligence

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agencies decided to brief Trump on these claims and votes for the

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credibility of their author, a former MI6 officer, that gave them

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traction. These were based on memos compiled by a former British

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intelligence operative, whose past work US intelligence officials

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consider credible. When that had aired, the reports ended up online.

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The documents, marked confidential and sensitive source, argue the

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Russian government had been backing Trump for at least five years. One

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makes salacious claims about his alleged use of prostitutes, and that

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the FSB had either arranged or moderate them. The latest memo

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details a meeting in Moscow between Carter Page and senior Russian

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officials. One source suggests the Russians have compromising material

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on both Trump and Hillary Clinton. A Kremlin spokesman is alleged to have

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led the campaign to help Trump and damage his opponent. He today issued

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his own denial. There were also alleged meetings between Trump

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lawyer Michael Cohen and Kremlin officials. One suggests he met

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Kremlin officials in 2016. Michael Cohen says he has never been to

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Moscow. CNN reported may have been a different Michael Cohen. The memos

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claim deniable payments were made to hackers who had worked for the

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Kremlin and against Clinton's campaign. The fact that Buzzfeed and

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CNN made the decision to run with this unsubstantiated claim is a sad

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and pathetic attempt to get press. The report is not an intelligence

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report, plain and simple. People need to look very carefully at a

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range of information in front of them. And, go to their own

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conclusions as they sift through a variety of different facts. -- and

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come to the wrong conclusions. I will say that I listened to him very

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closely and listened to be denied and what he did not. And the point

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about the number of different contacts that people in his campaign

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had with the Russians, which he was asked about repeatedly, he did not

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comment on that point. Today's confirmation hearings for Trump's

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Pickford Secretary of State spent much time on Russia and Putin. I

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have not had any class -- on classified briefings because I have

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not received my clearance. I did read the report released on January

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six. That report is clearly trouble. It indicates all of the actions you

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describe are undertaken. The tycoon's Kremlin ties are the chosen

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battle ground. This was a press

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conference like no other. The bulk of it was spent

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on dispelling what Donald Trump But in between, we got

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plenty of real news. The Mexican wall will be built

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with almost immediate effect, Obamacare would be replaced

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with a new healthcare system, a border tax would be enacted

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on those companies who move production abroad,

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and the President-elect would be isolating himself

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from all his business interests and handing the company

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over to his sons to run. As a press conference,

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this was unwieldy, confused and exhausting, but as a piece

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of television, it The man who in just

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ten days will be sworn in as the leader of the free world

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began by dismissing the lurid allegations of sexual behaviour

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in a Russian hotel room and commended those who chose not

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to report them. I want to thank a lot of the news

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organisations here today. Trump pulled back

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to questions of his If Putin likes Donald

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Trump - guess what, folks - that's called

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an asset, not a liability. Trump then explains why

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those extraordinary I was in Russia years

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ago with the Miss Universe contest,

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which did very well. And I told many people,

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be careful, because you don't want to see

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yourself on television. Trump lashes out at both

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the US intelligence highly personal fight with the news

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organisations who did choose to Since you are attacking

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us, can you give us a She's asking a question,

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don't be rude. No, I'm not going to

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give you a question. I think it was disgraceful,

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disgraceful, that the intelligence agencies

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allowed any information that turned out to be

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so I think it's a disgrace,

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and I say that, and I say And that's something Nazi Germany

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would have done, and did do.

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I think it's a disgrace. As far as Buzzfeed,

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which is a failing pile of garbage, writing it,

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I think they're going to suffer the He picks up parts of the story

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he claims are demonstrably false. Michael Cohen of the Trump

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organisation was in Prague. It turned out to be

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a different Michael Cohen. It may well be that

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none of the leaks are true, but the story in some ways

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has already moved on. A man about to enter

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the highest office in the land who distrusts

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the very agencies tasked

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with keeping America safe. No note to end on, so he falls

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back on a role he does These papers are all just

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a piece of the many, many companies that

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are being put into trust

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to be run by my two sons. I hope that the end of eight years

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I'll come back and I'll Otherwise, if they do a bad job,

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I'll say, you're fired. Well, within the last hour,

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the BBC has named Christopher Steele as the author of the series of memos

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regarding Donald Trump which has He is a former member

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of the Secret Intelligence Service, MI6, and has been a director

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of Orbis, which describes itself as a leading corporate

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intelligence company. He has not yet responded

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to a request for comment. Glen Greenwald - best known

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for his role in the publication of the National Security Agnecy

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leaks - joins us now from Rio. You heard Buzzfeed, the publication

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that went ahead with publication today, being described as a failing

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pile of garbage. Would you have published? I think the question

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about whether to publish was a very easy one before yesterday, which was

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the decision that every news organisation that had this document

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made, which was not to publish, because nobody could verify this

:11:37.:11:41.

information. Once the intelligence agencies called CNN to tell the

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world that the FBI and CIA had briefed the President-elect on this

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material, and that Russia allegedly had dirt on Trump, I actually think

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Buzzfeed did an important journalistic service by ending the

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speculation about what that was and letting everybody see what a

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farcical document this actually was on which this is based. You call it

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a farcical document, Donald Trump called it fake news. You basically

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with him on that? I don't know if it is fake or real. I say it is

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farcical because when it was disclosed it was not only anonymous,

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now a person has been identified, it was somebody paid by Democratic

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operatives to pick up dirt on Hillary Clinton. There is no

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evidence. It is all based on what anonymous people allegedly told him.

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It is impossible to evaluate whether or might not these claims are true,

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which is why no journalist or organisation was willing to publish

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despite efforts to get them to do so. It was taken seriously by the

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CIA, doesn't that elevated above gossip? Right, so the CIA is an

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agency that has repeatedly got caught lying in the past. It is

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designed to disseminate propaganda and they are currently in open

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warfare with the person elected president of the United States.

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There were behind the Hillary Clinton campaign. Once the CIA

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briefs the president and President-elect on this document, it

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becomes newsworthy. But the mere fact the CIA tried to enshrine this

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document in a cloud of authenticity or credibility, doesn't for me as a

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journalist convince me. I want to see evidence first to believe

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claims. You are calling the CIA partisan. You basically suggesting a

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Donald Trump ignores everything the CAA tells him, that is no great loss

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to America? No, I didn't say anything even a multi-like that. You

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suggested the CAA was partisan and pitted against the President-elect?

:13:46.:13:50.

That is absolutely true. The former head of the CIA, Michael Morrell,

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went to the New York Times and endorsed Hillary Clinton. General

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Hayden went to the Washington Post and did the same. They both accused

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Trump of being a recruit of Vladimir Putin. Whatever they tell him now,

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in that case, he would have to take with a pinch of salt because he

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would see them as a partisan organisation? Is that what you are

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suggesting? I would say that any rational human being with minimal

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history of the United States and the CIA would take everything that the

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CAA says with a huge grain of salt. I would call it a dose of rational

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scepticism, given how many times in the past that agency has lied and

:14:34.:14:38.

been in error. The Iraq war was started because that agency said

:14:39.:14:40.

that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was in alliance

:14:41.:14:44.

with Al-Qaeda. Something that was tragically untrue. So of course

:14:45.:14:50.

people would treat those claims sceptically. But intelligence is not

:14:51.:14:54.

the same as fact. It's Omeley comes to you with a terrorist threat, it

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is what they understand might be about to happen. If they came to you

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with fact, it would be too late. That is what the CIA is doing, isn't

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it? For the CIA calls to be public is

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not pack can anybody's mind not even the CIA say it is fact. As own

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report demonstrated, one of the only claims that could be verified, that

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Trump's lawyer travel to Prague to meet with Russian officials, came

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pretty close to being affirmatively disproven, given that Michael: Was

:15:28.:15:36.

not in Prague. It is not a fact. It is a falsehood, as the CIA so often

:15:37.:15:41.

disseminates. But it may not always come down to fight with

:15:42.:15:44.

intelligence. Are not right to try to alert the incoming president that

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this may be going on? Surely that is an intelligence agency doing its

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job, isn't it? I don't think anybody has a problem with the fact the CIA

:15:57.:16:00.

told Donald Trump this happened. I think the problem is they called the

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source credible, then somebody went to CNN in a coordinated way,

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multiple officials, to tell CNN that this was briefed to the president

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and the President-elect, knowing they would report it and the

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document would surface. You can take the line that the CIA was trying to

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do its job, but it is obvious there is open conflict between the

:16:26.:16:28.

intelligence community and the elected president and this was a way

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of undermining his credibility. We don't know where those leaks came

:16:34.:16:37.

from, although he has pointed the finger at the intelligence agencies.

:16:38.:16:41.

Let me ask you to clarify one thing, because it seemed as if the first

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time today we had Donald Trump concede that the hacking of the

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Democratic e-mails over the probably did come from Russia. Would that

:16:49.:16:54.

change how you view Wikileaks and awayday leaked -- and the way they

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leaked? I don't regard Donald Trump as a paragon of truth that we are

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duty bound to agree with. I want to see evidence before I believe Russia

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did it. Second, every media organisation, when they get

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material, ask two questions: Is it authentic, and is it in the public

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interest? It does not matter what the provenance of the documents was

:17:30.:17:34.

from a journalistic perspective, it depends on whether they were in the

:17:35.:17:38.

public interest, and they clearly were. It resulted in five Democratic

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officials being removed. Wikileaks did the right thing in reporting on

:17:43.:17:46.

those materials. Labour has accused the Prime

:17:47.:17:48.

Minister of being in denial over In the Commons today,

:17:49.:17:51.

Jeremy Corbyn pointed to the increasing number of patients

:17:52.:17:53.

waiting more than four hours in A, and the number of hospitals now

:17:54.:17:57.

overstretched, and called for extra investment in health

:17:58.:17:59.

and social care, calling it a humanitarian crisis -

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the phrase first used Theresa May rejected the phrase,

:18:02.:18:03.

but admitted the pressure exists. It is winter, the NHS's hardest time

:18:04.:18:22.

of the year, and while it is not actually snowing in Westminster, it

:18:23.:18:26.

feels positively arctic in the English health service. Today, its

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chief executive, who already has a pretty frosty relationship with

:18:32.:18:35.

Downing Street, kicked off a fairly public campaign for more NHS

:18:36.:18:39.

funding. The Government is repeatedly telling us, and I have

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had letters recently from the Secretary of State, that the NHS is

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getting more money than it asks for, so what is your view? I have said it

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previously to a select committee in October that, like probably every

:18:54.:18:59.

part of the public servers, we got less than we ask for in that

:19:00.:19:04.

process, and so I think it would be stretching it to say that the NHS

:19:05.:19:09.

has got more than it has asked for. So how bad are things? Is it just

:19:10.:19:17.

January? No, it isn't. Here are the 2014 figures for the share of

:19:18.:19:20.

patients at A dealt with within four hours. You can see how cold

:19:21.:19:27.

weather ways on the service. It is well below its 95% target at the end

:19:28.:19:34.

of the year. He was 2015 and 2016. Now, let's look at the July. You can

:19:35.:19:41.

see that, yes, winter matters, but performance has declined each year,

:19:42.:19:44.

and each year, there was matching deterioration in the financial

:19:45.:19:49.

position of the hospitals. The hospital sector is struggling on all

:19:50.:19:55.

fronts. Hospitals started the financial year with an underlying

:19:56.:19:58.

deficit of almost ?4 billion, which meant they were spending ?4 billion

:19:59.:20:03.

more than their funding. In the summer, the Government introduced a

:20:04.:20:07.

so-called reset, of measures to address this, including targets for

:20:08.:20:11.

hospitals to gradually reduce those deficits, and some extra money over

:20:12.:20:17.

the next three years, though that has to be taken from elsewhere in

:20:18.:20:22.

the NHS. There is also a restriction on hospitals hiring locum staff. As

:20:23.:20:29.

part of the reset, hospitals were supposed to increase performance.

:20:30.:20:35.

Here is the average of the plans set out, starting from July. You can see

:20:36.:20:40.

they were supposed to gradually moved back to that elusive 95%

:20:41.:20:45.

target, but here is what happened. The hospitals started off behind and

:20:46.:20:50.

fell further back. The BBC has obtained leaked data suggesting

:20:51.:20:52.

recent performances in this region of the graph down here. The reset

:20:53.:21:02.

utterly failed. Some of the causes of this winter's problems in health

:21:03.:21:08.

care are very long. Full example -- for example, the country's ageing

:21:09.:21:12.

and every year technology means that we can treat new diseases, which

:21:13.:21:16.

means there is rising demand for health care every year. It is a type

:21:17.:21:20.

that comes in and never goes out. But some of the problems have more

:21:21.:21:24.

medium-term causes. For example, what's going on in social care. If

:21:25.:21:31.

you go back to 2010, we now have 400,000 fewer people receiving

:21:32.:21:36.

social care, so a 25% care in the number of people getting support,

:21:37.:21:39.

which means you have large numbers of people in hospital ready to be

:21:40.:21:44.

discharged, medically fit for discharge, but we cannot get them

:21:45.:21:49.

into social care facilities. Act hospitals mean bad care, high costs

:21:50.:21:54.

and long waiting times, which is why Simon Stephens supports more money

:21:55.:21:58.

for local authority social care. The hospitals themselves have another

:21:59.:22:02.

problem: They have taken up particularly big part of the NHS's

:22:03.:22:10.

funding string. They wanted to drive more productivity in hospitals by

:22:11.:22:18.

reducing the amount the given per patient. This meant that by 2015,

:22:19.:22:22.

the hospital was paid the equivalent of ?850 to treat a patient they

:22:23.:22:26.

would have been paid ?1000 to treat five years earlier. The hospitals

:22:27.:22:32.

aren't coping on those lower prices. It's really not just another winter.

:22:33.:22:39.

Hospital bosses now talk about the new law of longer waiting times and

:22:40.:22:41.

was hospital performance. Does the NHS need

:22:42.:22:42.

comprehensive reform? I'm joined in the studio now by

:22:43.:22:45.

former Health Minister, Dan Poulter. By the former President

:22:46.:22:48.

of the Royal College And by Ali Parsa, who is the founder

:22:49.:22:50.

of the Digital Healthcare There was this dismissal of it being

:22:51.:23:08.

a crisis, or at least not on the scale the British Red Cross

:23:09.:23:11.

suggested. When the Prime Minister talked at PMQs about beans -- the

:23:12.:23:16.

small number of incidents, there was a collective groan at someone who

:23:17.:23:21.

had clearly underestimated the problem so badly, ban. When we think

:23:22.:23:27.

of a humanitarian crisis, she rightly said, we think of Syria and

:23:28.:23:31.

Iraq, but it is the case that there is a big problem in the NHS, and we

:23:32.:23:36.

have seen tragic examples in Worcester and elsewhere this week,

:23:37.:23:39.

where people's lives have been lost because of the pressures on A You

:23:40.:23:44.

are clear, there is a big problem in the NHS, not a small number of

:23:45.:23:52.

incidents will stop -- a small number of incidents. It is worse

:23:53.:23:57.

than I have seen things in the decade or so but I have been working

:23:58.:24:03.

as a doctor. The result of pressure on front line services, we can see

:24:04.:24:09.

that, if you like, the shop window of the NHS, A, is under pressure,

:24:10.:24:15.

both in terms of difficulties in discharging patients, reductions in

:24:16.:24:22.

money to local councils for social care, but I think we really need to

:24:23.:24:25.

start a fund general practice and community care to make sure we can

:24:26.:24:29.

prevent some of those admissions. When we talk about increases in the

:24:30.:24:32.

budget over the last few years, almost all has gone to the acute

:24:33.:24:36.

sector, to hospitals, many of them in debt, and a lot of that money has

:24:37.:24:41.

sometimes been taken from mental health budgets at the expense of

:24:42.:24:44.

primary care, and that needs to change. This talk of a humanitarian

:24:45.:24:49.

crisis, do you think it has been unhelpful in the debate because it

:24:50.:24:54.

makes it sound rather political? I wouldn't use the term, but I think

:24:55.:24:59.

it is a human crisis for those elderly people waiting for hours on

:25:00.:25:04.

trolleys, for those children with mental health problems having to

:25:05.:25:08.

travel hundreds of miles to find a hospital bed, and for my profession,

:25:09.:25:15.

who are trying to deliver and unable to deliver. So it is certainly a

:25:16.:25:20.

human crisis, and I believe that what Dan has just said is absolutely

:25:21.:25:23.

correct. It is sometimes easy to say that we need more money. We have an

:25:24.:25:30.

incredibly cheap health service. We eke out so much care from our health

:25:31.:25:36.

service. We have one of the most efficient services in the world. It

:25:37.:25:41.

is a precious gift to the people of this country, and if we lose it, we

:25:42.:25:45.

will all be more the worse off for it. Ali, do you think it comes down

:25:46.:25:50.

to money, is it really that obvious? I don't know whether it all comes

:25:51.:25:56.

down to money or not, but I do know that money is not the only solution.

:25:57.:26:07.

We have to deploy better technology. One of my children got sick at the

:26:08.:26:12.

weekend, and I had the option of taking the child to A, on a bus or

:26:13.:26:18.

whatever, adding to the overcrowded this, spending hours and putting a

:26:19.:26:24.

burden on doctors, or I picked up my phone, made an appointment in

:26:25.:26:27.

seconds, so a doctor within minutes, my prescription was sent... When you

:26:28.:26:33.

say you picked up your phone, argue talking about a private clinic? --

:26:34.:26:39.

are you talking about a private clinic? With my private company,

:26:40.:26:50.

Babylon, all of that went away within minutes. I pay a subscription

:26:51.:26:53.

every month, which is a fraction of the price it costs. That is a

:26:54.:27:04.

fraction of what we pay each year. If we push people towards this as an

:27:05.:27:09.

alternative to A There is no doubt that investing in technology

:27:10.:27:12.

is an important part of improving the delivery of care. It is not just

:27:13.:27:17.

the application, it is the extra payments. I believe in a health

:27:18.:27:27.

service free at the point of care, and free in terms of need. I think

:27:28.:27:31.

it should be funded from general taxation. There is a sensible

:27:32.:27:33.

discussion we need to have about whether the level of money you put

:27:34.:27:37.

into the health service and the level of taxation should perhaps be

:27:38.:27:45.

increased to pay for and maintain a health service we all care about. Do

:27:46.:27:52.

you think we need more taxation? It used to be the case that national

:27:53.:27:56.

insurance was strongly linked to health contributions. It's now a tax

:27:57.:28:00.

that just goes to the Treasury. If we can re-establish some link

:28:01.:28:06.

between hypothecated health and care Pack, it is something I would be

:28:07.:28:09.

open to discussing. I think there is a good case. I am not a politician

:28:10.:28:18.

but I agree. The public probably don't mind paying more tax if they

:28:19.:28:21.

are sure it is going to the health service. The over 65s don't pay

:28:22.:28:28.

national insurance. There are ways that the public can start to look at

:28:29.:28:33.

how we can fund the health service. If you lose the service, or even the

:28:34.:28:39.

idea of the service, it's something that you regret and you never get

:28:40.:28:43.

back. Do you think, in a sense, that is inhibiting the NHS from trying

:28:44.:28:51.

new, more radical ideas? Never so much iconography about the NHS, it

:28:52.:28:59.

doesn't dare disturb itself much. In that respect, I think you're right.

:29:00.:29:02.

We provide the same service in Rwanda. In 15 weeks since we

:29:03.:29:09.

launched, we signed up 2.5% of the population of row under. We

:29:10.:29:14.

delivered 70,000 consultations over the phone to the people of one of

:29:15.:29:19.

the poorest, most economic way challenged countries in the world.

:29:20.:29:25.

We have to be careful about this. This is not whether they should be

:29:26.:29:32.

private or public. In Essex, we have the same arrangement with the NHS

:29:33.:29:35.

where we do this for the National Health Service. What are some of the

:29:36.:29:40.

other solutions you are looking at? If you see yourself as a pioneer,

:29:41.:29:44.

it's not just about an application on your phone will stop where else

:29:45.:29:51.

are the solutions? Ten years ago, it would have cost $1 million, ?1

:29:52.:29:57.

million, to do diagnostics on you. Today, I can do that for ?10,000, a

:29:58.:30:05.

99% reduction of the cost in diagnostics, and I can throw in your

:30:06.:30:07.

gene sequencing. What is happening with technology and its effect on

:30:08.:30:12.

health care is significant. We need to embrace it, as well as keeping

:30:13.:30:16.

our old system. It is not one against the other.

:30:17.:30:23.

If we were self prescribing more, is that a danger? It can be a danger.

:30:24.:30:34.

The Pats -- has to be used in a Safeway. But certainly supporting

:30:35.:30:41.

terrorism is important. 1.I would make is that in the NHS our systems

:30:42.:30:48.

are just beginning to talk to each other. We need to improve the

:30:49.:30:57.

delivery of front-line patient care. Most health care organisations spend

:30:58.:31:03.

only a small fraction. Please don't fall into the trap of assuming that

:31:04.:31:08.

all innovation is in the private sector and not the public sector. In

:31:09.:31:12.

my practice, we have developed an online digital offering for patients

:31:13.:31:16.

currently offered to 2.5 million patients across England. It will

:31:17.:31:24.

offer people pre-care. It will tell the GP what they think is wrong with

:31:25.:31:28.

them. We can do electronic prescribing. I think it is 2 billion

:31:29.:31:34.

prescriptions described digitally. We self prescribe pharmacists. Let's

:31:35.:31:39.

not look at one sector and save the NHS is a Luddite and a dinosaur. The

:31:40.:31:45.

NHS is an innovative institution. The problem is people working in the

:31:46.:31:50.

NHS are exhausted. To innovate, to experiment, requires energy and

:31:51.:31:55.

Headspace. Do we have to get used to living with crisis? Demand will

:31:56.:31:59.

always outstrip income. There will never be a time when there is a

:32:00.:32:04.

surplus of money to spend on health, right, because of how the population

:32:05.:32:12.

has changed? We have had an unprecedented period of a squeeze on

:32:13.:32:18.

finances. Demand has increased. People with increasingly complex

:32:19.:32:24.

care needs. But funding is going up by 1% a year. That is not a

:32:25.:32:28.

sustainable long-term solution. We spend a lower amount compared to

:32:29.:32:33.

other countries by OECD calculations. When we saw a

:32:34.:32:41.

transformation in what we could do with the health service was when

:32:42.:32:44.

Tony Blair put the money in and made an investment. We need a similar

:32:45.:32:49.

investment now. You are the Tory minister talking about the need for

:32:50.:32:54.

a Tony Blair, Gordon Brown government splurge? I care about the

:32:55.:32:58.

health service. I care about patients. That made a difference.

:32:59.:33:04.

With Gordon Brown, Tony Blair or Theresa May, we need to make a

:33:05.:33:08.

difference. If that isn't done, do you have to look at the services

:33:09.:33:14.

that can no longer be offered? . I think you're right. We need to send

:33:15.:33:20.

some of the practices we have into general practice. If we re-source

:33:21.:33:26.

them better, we will keep patients out of hospital and we will

:33:27.:33:29.

hopefully be able to write this crisis. Fundamentally we get what we

:33:30.:33:33.

pay for if we don't put more money in. We can't pay for anything. Thank

:33:34.:33:35.

you. Around the world there has been

:33:36.:33:36.

a significant increase in the number of children being referred

:33:37.:33:39.

to gender clinics. Increasingly, parents with children

:33:40.:33:41.

who say they've been born in the wrong gender,

:33:42.:33:43.

are adopting a gender affirmative approach

:33:44.:33:45.

and supporting their children Tomorrow night, a documentary airs

:33:46.:33:47.

on BBC Two which looks at the choices children

:33:48.:33:53.

and their parents Around the world, the transgender

:33:54.:33:55.

community is on the march. Not all boys have a penis,

:33:56.:34:01.

and not all girls have a vagina. Parents are facing

:34:02.:34:14.

an explosion in the number of children saying they were

:34:15.:34:16.

born in the wrong body. I never actually fitted

:34:17.:34:18.

in with being a boy. I don't like the games,

:34:19.:34:38.

the hairstyles, the clothes. And I always thought

:34:39.:34:45.

from the beginning There's nothing wrong

:34:46.:34:47.

with being a boy. It's just that I don't

:34:48.:34:54.

enjoy being a boy. She's just at an age now

:34:55.:34:57.

where sexuality is starting to develop, so boy crushes and things

:34:58.:35:03.

like that are just starting to come I'm pretty sure I'm going to have

:35:04.:35:07.

to get surgeries and all that It might be rough, cos

:35:08.:35:12.

everybody has a rough life. At this point, we have

:35:13.:35:26.

to start considering puberty blockers, things like that, so we've

:35:27.:35:33.

been researching that like crazy and speaking to doctors and different

:35:34.:35:38.

things to try to make those decisions for her because she's

:35:39.:35:41.

too young to make them. Like, I've already made

:35:42.:35:45.

the decision I want to be a girl, but I haven't made

:35:46.:35:51.

the decision if I want to do the And you can see the whole

:35:52.:35:54.

of that documentary - Transgender Kids: Who Knows Best -

:35:55.:36:02.

tomorrow night on BBC Joining me now is Sian say, it's

:36:03.:36:19.

transgender journalist in Bristol. At what point do you think children

:36:20.:36:27.

are able to makes up their own minds on this? I think the whole point

:36:28.:36:35.

about this kind of treatment or realisation is there is a lot of

:36:36.:36:39.

nonsense in the media at the moment about transgender children and about

:36:40.:36:42.

the kind of treatments they go through. Something like puberty

:36:43.:36:48.

blockers, which was just discussed, Aaron fact allowing children space

:36:49.:36:57.

and time by delaying puberty. They experience such stress out of their

:36:58.:37:03.

gender role. It gives them the time before puberty takes over and

:37:04.:37:06.

essentially takes a lot of decisions out of their hands that have to be

:37:07.:37:11.

reversed painfully later. Let me bring in Ray Blanchard, who is

:37:12.:37:18.

joining us from Toronto. Ray spent many years researching factors that

:37:19.:37:23.

determine sexual orientation. Do you think if you can take out that

:37:24.:37:28.

messy, oak-wood, complicated stage of childhood puberty because a small

:37:29.:37:32.

child knows best, wouldn't you choose to do that? -- awkward. There

:37:33.:37:38.

are some facts that have to be introduced. Every follow-up study

:37:39.:37:43.

has shown that the majority of children with gender identity issues

:37:44.:37:48.

do not enter up transsexual. The majority and up with normal gender

:37:49.:37:53.

identity. Secondly, we have no diagnostic procedure and methods

:37:54.:37:56.

that can reliably distinguish which children are going to go on a sexual

:37:57.:38:02.

trajectory and which are going to end up with normal gender identity.

:38:03.:38:07.

Thirdly, I think people who are not enthusiastic about it in young

:38:08.:38:12.

children take the decision that the first line of approach Tonetti

:38:13.:38:17.

should be helping the child accept his or her sex. If they can't do

:38:18.:38:22.

that by puberty, it is reasonable to consider puberty blockers. I am OK

:38:23.:38:28.

with puberty blockers. Only after a screening period. We heard about a

:38:29.:38:33.

doctor who was fired in Canada for not being gender affirmative and

:38:34.:38:37.

off. In other words, for asking children to pause before making that

:38:38.:38:42.

kind of gender choice. Surely it's right for the medical profession to

:38:43.:38:45.

try and stop that in the first instance because it's irreversible?

:38:46.:38:50.

One thing I want to say is actually the doctor in question wasn't fired

:38:51.:38:57.

purely because of his ideology about children and gender. He was also

:38:58.:39:01.

fired because of a review by his peers which actually found that his

:39:02.:39:08.

methodology was faulty. But also that his practice as a clinician

:39:09.:39:16.

was... That is categorically untrue. He was asking very lured sexual

:39:17.:39:23.

questions. I have to say we have to be a little bit wary... We have

:39:24.:39:30.

heard from Ray that is categorically untrue. I don't want to go further

:39:31.:39:34.

down those allegations because he is not here to defend himself. Let us

:39:35.:39:38.

look at the wider question, that this is something that can't be

:39:39.:39:42.

reversed for a child. Isn't it eminently sensible in such a young

:39:43.:39:46.

science of clinical practitioners to Paul's? While unfortunately, the

:39:47.:39:51.

problem is that when that pause occurs it sounds very nice and

:39:52.:39:55.

reasonable and rational. But these are real people at the heart of it.

:39:56.:40:00.

And unfortunately, one statistic that genuinely is true in this

:40:01.:40:03.

country is that 48% of trans-teenagers before they hit 18,

:40:04.:40:09.

attempt suicide. When you call for this very reasonable pause, parents

:40:10.:40:17.

and teachers increasingly know and the majority of clinicians know...

:40:18.:40:31.

The objective data shows gestures in gender children are the same as

:40:32.:40:36.

those in other psychiatric populations of children and

:40:37.:40:42.

adolescents. There is no data about the rate of completed suicides is

:40:43.:40:48.

hiring gender this form to children than in adolescence. Isn't the

:40:49.:40:51.

question that parents do not want to feel they are guilty of having

:40:52.:40:55.

failed to listen to their child's concerns when they could have done

:40:56.:41:00.

something meaningful about his? Yes, I agree. Some parents are being

:41:01.:41:05.

emotionally blackmailed by false information about threats of suicide

:41:06.:41:11.

by these children into thinking that if they make any attempts to help

:41:12.:41:15.

their kid that they are putting their child at risk of suicide. It

:41:16.:41:23.

is just pure manipulation. It is manipulation and emotionally

:41:24.:41:26.

blackmailing? Who is manipulating? Where is this coming from? I'm

:41:27.:41:30.

transgender myself. I work with transgender children. No one's

:41:31.:41:38.

parents was looking for this. Most parents of transgender children have

:41:39.:41:41.

had to go through a long process. It's not like your GP pushes it.

:41:42.:41:45.

It's quite difficult to access health care in this country. Schools

:41:46.:41:50.

aren't very aware of it. This idea that there is some kind of pressure,

:41:51.:41:55.

or some trans-mob that walks into a home and says, it's time for

:41:56.:42:03.

surgery... We have run out of time. Ray, last word to you,... Do you

:42:04.:42:13.

think it's just because essentially this is a new science and people

:42:14.:42:18.

have not caught up with where it transgender issues are, even those

:42:19.:42:22.

who work within it? I think the problem is that the media coverage,

:42:23.:42:28.

I'm not talking about the BBC, the media coverage has been so water

:42:29.:42:34.

well mainly one-sided in terms of cheerleading for gender transition,

:42:35.:42:38.

it has not covered other aspects of the question. -- overwhelmingly

:42:39.:42:40.

one-sided. Thank you both.

:42:41.:42:45.

A look at Donald Trump's response to allegations that Russia posseses compromising material on him.

Also reporting on conflicting views on the state of the NHS, when transgener children should start treatment, and Mark Carney's surprising annoucement on the effects of Brexit.

With Emily Maitlis.