EU Special Question Time

What happens now? It has revealed a deeply divided country and has the

main political parties falling apart. What is the way forward?

We are in Birmingham this evening, a city that was almost evenly divided

between Leave and Remain. The audience reflects the split. A panel

haven't seen any questions in advance. We have the Conservative

justice minister, Dominic Raab. The deputy leader of Ukip, Paul Nuttall

and the parish priest and Guardian columnist, Giles Fraser. On the side

of Remain, the conservative Business Minister, Anna Soubry. The SNP Alex

Salmond. And Labour's Shadow International Development Secretary,

Diane Abbott. APPLAUSE

If you want to use Facebook or Twitter to comment, you can do that

on our hash tag: Let's get the first question. It comes from Chris

Abbott, please. Project fear has failed, the peasants have revolted.

After decades of ignoring the working class, how does it feel to

be punched in the knows? APPLAUSE

Anna Soubry, how does it feel? That is the sort of language we have got

to get away from and move forward. We have got to come together. I can

assure you my roots, somebody who was bought up in North

Nottinghamshire, and I like to think I keep in touch, not only with my

constituents, but where I came from. I think this debate and this

referendum has not been our country's greatest hour. I have to

say, I have witnessed, witnessed language on the street, which is

where I have been in the East Midlands, which is where I am from.

I have heard words used and language used, immigrants, get all these

immigrants out. I have not witnessed that since I was a student in

Birmingham back in the mid-70s. I am worried about the state of our

nation. I think what has happened is the tolerance we are rightly proud

to have as part and parcel of our fundamental values, to a large part

has been put aside by too many people. We need to rebuild

communities and we need to move on. And we need to put, if I may say,

hope over hatred and stop preying on prejudice and fuelling fears. We are

where we are. Now we have got to come together and get on with it.

Decades of ignoring the working-class, there was a clear

division in the results of this referendum. The more prosperous and

London, Scotland, you know, Scotland. On the other hand, there

were people who seemed to feel, according to everything they said,

disaffected, left out in the countryside and the poorest cities.

A lot of people who voted leader-macro came from all classes

in our society and background. Many people who voted Leave, voted for

reasons, although I don't agree with them, were completely honourable.

People also voted Leave for things I am deeply troubled by, that was the

immigration thing and it was wrong. What has been exposed by this

referendum is deep divisions within the country and Labour strongholds

like Walsall, my hometown, have voted to leave. All over the

country, they have chosen the same idea to leave. In the past, that

would never have happened. There is massive disconnect from the parties

and their electorate to not be able to galvanise the voter. Giles

Fraser? Did you say Walsall? I was a vicar in Blakelaw Heath for a while.

Many people there felt left behind by globalisation, felt they haven't

been listened to. I can understand the anger that comes from it. Some

of the anger has been misdirected, some of it has been exploited by the

far right in absolutely disgraceful ways. It has to be said. But that

anger is... Who do you mean by the far right, Ukip? I think the Ukip

poster was absolutely disgraceful. It soiled an important argument we

were having. The gentleman is right, there is a legitimate anger in

places where people have been ignored for a very long time. They

have been ignored I London. Now they are being sneered at for being

angry, as if they were... You know bastion mark I just want to say one

thing, there are not 17.4 million racists in this country. And that is

important to say. APPLAUSE

Do you want to respond to what he said about Ukip? Ukip isn't a far

right party, we have campaigned against the European Union since our

inception. I think this was the people versus the establishment. It

was ordinary working-class people against the Brussels elite, against

the big banks, against the business, against project fear. I want to know

whether Chancellor is at the moment? He seems to have disappeared

altogether. Giles spoke about the sneering now because people were

angry. I can give you an example. A Guardian columnist yesterday wrote

we have Brexit because of northern, crappy towns, places like Preston in

my constituency, places like Wigan, black burn and Burnley. I have had

enough of this London centric, metropolitan snobbery... Alex

Salmond? I can reveal whether Chancellor is, he has been

kidnapped. But nobody is going to pay the ransom and that is why you

haven't seen him! In reality, there were two project fears. There was

the project fear on the economy led by the Prime Minister and the

Chancellor. But also the other project fear, the one on

immigration, which was at the heart of the Outer campaign. The

consequence given that the Outer campaign fund, the consequences for

society of that project fear of very deep. Politicians should be doing,

not worrying about the dislocation in their own parties, but worrying

about the dislocation in my causing communities. I am not signed up

member of the British establishment. I am not. I am proud one political

leader who wasn't turned over by the electorate on Thursday was Nicola

Sturgeon, who got a resounding vote to remain in Scotland and Europe

last Thursday. I do recognise the political establishment to have been

rejected by their electorate, better start facing and reconnecting and

how you do that and offer hope. There is only one antidote to fear,

whether it is fear of the economy or fear of immigration and that is to

offer people hope and the way forward. Let's hear from our

audience. You at the back in the striped shirt. I think it is really

important to acknowledge the fact, acknowledge the role of the media.

The tabloid press on a daily basis, much of the nuanced debate has been

lost about sovereignty, it is just immigration, immigration,

immigration. Speaking from the point of view of a teacher, our younger

students, if the only thing they are hearing is this one note debate of

immigration, immigration, immigration, that is all they will

here and we'll ignore the rest. This woman here. While we are talking

about in sensitivities and inappropriate behaviour from

different parties throughout this complaint, I would like to ask Paul

Nuttall how he feels about Aaron Banks running polls after the death

of Jo Cox and how appropriate and sensitive he feels it is and was? I

have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. I am not up with

those polls at all, I am sorry I cannot comment. I just don't know.

The woman here in pink. It is too easy to pull all the results on

Friday down to immigration. It is patronising and far too easy. We are

in Birmingham which is extremely significant in my city. It is the

most culturally diverse and ethnically diverse city in this

country. To say the result is fear of immigration is wrong. There are

so many more complexities as to why people voted Leave, democracy,

sovereignty, and economics. It is disingenuous. What you make of Chris

Abbott's view the peasants have revolted, people are going

establishment and that is how it broke? To an extent, I believe that

is true. I grew up on a council estate, my parents still live on a

council estate. People believe they are not being listened to. And where

we have negative impact on certain policies around immigration, those

are the people who feel it does inform some of their opinion. But it

does not inform all of it. Were you surprised by the outcome? For

Birmingham, I was surprised, yes. Diane Abbott. There is no question

this boat has come out of the EU was a roar of anger against Westminster

elite. It is the most important political vote of my lifetime. I

don't believe we should rerun it. We have to respect the results of the

vote. There are also progressive reasons to want to come out of the

EU. Tony Benn, all his life campaign to come out of the EU. But, members

parts of the Leave campaign, notably Ukip, dot down in the gutter around

immigration on this campaign. It is right to say it is not all about

immigration, but I am telling you, there are people who are frightened

and wondering what is their country becoming. It is so important we come

together and reassure people that this vote isn't an endorsement of

the politics of Ukip. This vote isn't about trying to make

immigrants and people of colour feel frightened and feel they don't

belong here. I respect the vote, but let's not hide what an unpleasant,

ugly aspect there was. APPLAUSE

Paul? The young lady in the audience is right, to pin this on immigration

is right. Places with large South Asian populations go out and vote to

leave. Let me finish. We do have to accept immigration did play a part,

because as we know, and the Bank of England have said, and trade unions

and Lord Rose of the remaining campaign, uncontrolled, mass

immigration drives down wages. We're not going to refight the campaign.

We are talking about the consequences. Diane Abbott, you said

Tony Benn was in favour of pulling out? Always. Are you veering towards

supporting the idea of leaving? Is Jeremy Corbyn not veering to audit?

No, some aspects of this campaign, notably the role Ukip late, I find

totally repellent. But we respect the vote, we come together and bring

people together. APPLAUSE

Dominic Raab, there have been a number of attacks on the Leave

campaign, what do you make of those assertions? Most of them were at

Ukip. On my side and in voter leave, we wanted to talk about immigration

but also the huge opportunities that this country to go from strength to

strength, be a global player, take control of our economy and

democracy. We can rerun the debate. It was four months and people were

tired of it at the end. We have also had a remarkable, direct democratic

mandate to leave. 17 million people, 72% turnout, I have never seen

anything or anyone get a democratic mandate like that. Three things have

to happen now. First of all, what ever are different views, we

Democrats only have two respect the verdict and make it work. We need to

calm down and we need stability. On the economic side I was pleased at

what Sajid Javid said, what Mark Carney said, this economy is strong

enough to weather any short-term volatility and the Bank of England

will do anything it can to make sure it is the case. But this case needs

to shift from the divisive part of this campaign, to work out how we

mitigate the risks, take this golden opportunity and carried the 48% of

people who are nervous at this moment in time.

How do you carry the 48% who said they wanted to remain? First of all,

it's about the tone. Second, we need to mitigate the risks. What do you

mean by that? People are concerned about financial instability. If you

look at the FTSE 100, is a very strong statement by Mark Carney, we

are well placed to weather that. We also need to take the positives and

the opportunities. We've talked about the negative stuff on both

sides and I don't want to get into that because we're raking over

Coles, but if you look at the international reaction from the EU,

Angela Merkel, and the BDI, the German equivalent of the

Confederation of British industry,... Mitigate the risks,

David, but let's take this golden opportunity to make this country

even greater. Anna Soubry. He's your colleague in government, is it

possible to do that? Yes, because at the end of the day you've got to put

the country before your party and before the divisions. I completely

agree with everything that Diane Abbott has said about these deep

divisions that have occurred in relation to immigrants and people

who are not white. The other thing that concerns me is about the views

of a lot of younger voters, who feel that for their generation, their

opportunities in many ways have been stolen, if I may say, this is their

view and I don't necessarily subscribe to it but it has a lot of

merit, they feel another generation, older people, have taken away there

opportunities for the future. A lot of young people do feel that.

APPLAUSE They do and 75% of under

24-year-olds voted to Remain. The question is, they didn't turn out in

sufficient numbers. It is a good point you make. But we are where we

are. Only 40% of 18-year-olds to 24-year-olds went out and voted. But

we are where we are and we have to repair and move forward and we have

to take into account there are a lot of young people who are feeling very

sore at the moment. I take massive issue with the fact that this has

been portrayed as a working class revolt. Usually working-class

revolts aren't headed by people like Michael Gove and Boris Johnson.

Also, 48% of people might feel a bit nervous, but there are a hell of a

lot more people on the streets, people of colour and immigrants who

are not just a bit nervous but terrified because of abuse have

received. APPLAUSE

A lot of hands up but I want to take a question from Andrew Burroughs

Emma it comes to the point that Dominic

Raab was making. "Do The panel believe Europe will punish the UK

for leaving to quash any similar rebellion in Europe?" Who would like

to start on this? One reason is that the UK does not have a negotiating

platform. The way to minimise the economic damage from Brexit was to

say right, we will go for the European economic area, we will go

for some sort of associate membership like Switzerland or

Norway. The difficulty with that is that the bulk of the league campaign

was against free movement for Labour, because immigration actually

was at the heart of their campaign. Therefore they couldn't argue that,

therefore there is not a serious proposition to negotiate with. You

mean the Leave campaign don't have a view about coalition? I compared it

to the Robert Redford movie when he wins a Senate campaign in California

and turns and says what do we do now? That is a bit like the Leave

campaign. I would just point out that is probably why Michael Gove

and Boris Johnson looked like they were going to burst into tears at

their victory press conference! The other side is, there will be a

tendency in many European countries that they don't want to give an easy

ride to a UK exit in case it encourages other countries to do the

same thing. So this is going to be a real rough, tough negotiation

because one side doesn't know what it wants and the other side wants to

make a point. It's not going to be an easy two years. Dominic Raab.

Picked up on the point, if you would, that two of the leaders of

the leave campaign were looking startled or surprised or about to

burst into tears when they discovered they had won! We were all

a bit sleep deprived, won't we? It's a long campaign. Do you know what

you're going to do? Yes, how long are you going to give me to give you

the extent -- explanation. A minute! Let me answer the question, show me

that courtesy and I will show you the same. The more we say about what

we're going to do the more they were setting us up to criticise us

because we were a campaign and not a government. The lady asked... The EU

statement by the president said very clearly that we were going to have a

close partnership. Angela Merkel specifically rejected the idea of a

punitive approach. There is a good reason, because there are German

elections coming up in 2017 and there is no German Chancellor in

their right mind who would approach that looking to put out of jobs

manufacturing exporters. We know that the European firms sell ?68

million more in goods and services every year than we sell them. We

were told in the lead up to this campaign that we have been hung up

to dry for years, creating interminable uncertainty. Now the EU

say they would like to crack on. That's good for us, it strengthens

our leverage, we can take our time and trigger article 50 every time.

They want to crack on and you want to take it easy but that plays into

your hands? We can trigger the formal negotiations whenever we

want, which is our right. The fact that they would like us to do it

sooner rather than later strengthens minds and our negotiating position.

Let's hear from you, sir. I'm very alarmed and concerned that the

Remain campaign is still fighting a war that is over, it's done, get

over it, it's gone. What I am concerned about is that they are

still saying we've got to be involved with the new generation,

the new politics. I have a fundamental issue with the ones

telling us there was going to be a nuclear war and also a European war

negotiating contracts. Well, who... All of them, the Remain team. Anna

Soubry, are the Remain team going to be involved in negotiations? We hope

so because we now have to make sure we get the best deal for our

country. I was with somebody who has a small business who told me he's

already lost, this is the real world, he has lost two' contacts,

they were cancelled on Friday as a result. We are in immediate economic

shock. I can tell you where the Chancellor is. The Chancellor is

sitting and working out and making the phone calls and putting some

stability... Hang on, hang on. This is true and this is what has been

happening. I've been involved, as has Sergei Javier Colomo have been

putting the stability in in some important work in relation to the

steel industry which I'm sure you all aware of, which is extremely

sensitive and we are now very concerned about our economic

situation. That is the work we are doing and it has to be done

privately. You gave an example of a company that lost to contracts. What

has he lost? He is in construction and he was due to do two projects in

North Nottinghamshire, both of which have been cancelled because of the

fears and instability in the economy. That's why we have to

restore that stability. I think the Chancellor is crafting his

resignation speech right now, that is my opinion... Not once in this

campaign did I endorse the fear tactics on the economy and neither

did Nicola Sturgeon, who made a point of saying that is not... We

had a bucket full of that sort of stuff two years ago in Scotland and

I would never endorse that sort of campaign. There is an old saying in

American politics, if you break something, you own it. It is the

Brexit campaign who won the referendum across the UK and now

they have to tell us what the future is. You cannot expect the

politicians and David Cameron was right to resign and the Chancellor

will be right to resign, who acted against it, to act as if they can do

something. Who do you want to speak for the leave campaign? Boris

Johnson? It is the party of Michael Gove and Boris Johnson and we will

see if they are as good at the helm as they work...

APPLAUSE I want to see a Brexit government

because after all the Brexit side won. I want to see a exit the man

who will go to Brussels and negotiate hard. Well, you've only

got one Ukip MP, you're not going to have much chance!

APPLAUSE LAUGHTER

What is a Brexit government, Paul? It is one that is going to be headed

by Michael Gove or Boris Johnson. And nobody in the government who was

in favour, like Anna Soubry? Anna can be part of the government. Thank

you... In reality... You asked what would happen next but of course, as

an EPI will be out of a job, which is probably a good thing.

CHEERING APPLAUSE

Hang on, why when do you think you will be out of a job, three-year is

down the line, five, six? There will be no more European elections and

that will be a good thing. At the moment when article 50 is triggered,

it will be two years and then we will be out. We can have a bespoke

British Steel. We have a huge trading deficit with the European

Union, which means, in many ways, they need us more than we need them.

There are elections in France and Germany next year. You, sir, in the

pink shirt. I would just ask, Paul Nuttall, you have said you have got

this plan and you are doing everything. You say you would put up

a hard order between the north and south of Ireland if necessary. You

have no consideration for peace in Europe. You sniggered... The first

war we could see could be on our owned and, in Ireland. -- our own

land. That is Project Fear again. De Villiers, the Secretary of State,

has said it's not going to happen. There will not be a border between

the north and south of Ireland. What do you make of that argument? The

idea that we need a Brexit government is absolute nonsense.

APPLAUSE I didn't vote for Michael Gove, I

didn't vote for Boris Johnson when I voted for aggro leave.

It wasn't like a general election when you're voting for people like

that. We need a government of national unity.

APPLAUSE The most important thing... The way

you've set this up to night I understand, but this has all gone

now, this division. This debate is all what has happened before. Now

it's going forward and we'd all together have two work-out. As a

vicar, I have to say one thing. I know this is not a religious

programme... We a reading and it was "Love your neighbour as yourself".

Never before -- we need to love each other and attend to each other. We

need to stop these divisions and go forward and that means particular

stopping the racism too. APPLAUSE

Let's just deal with the issue of divisions. Michael Foakes has a

question which I would like to take briefly. Fire away. How can the

electorate trust the Remain politicians to uphold the democratic

decision of the British public to leave the EU? So, you have the

referendum and the have -- we have the referendum result. But just

under 500 650 MPs in the House of Commons are Remainers. I think the

question on a lot of people's minds, and David Lambie of Labour raised

this, was whether the House of Commons will actually go along with

this if the majority of them are against what do you think? I think

the suggestion that the House of Commons should vote down the

reverend and is quite wrong. We have to respect the will of the people.

I will say this, I thought Paul not all wanting a Brexit government is

chilling. Presumably this is a government where Ukip as the whip

hand. Nobody voted for this last Thursday. What about to do with the

EU issue? We certainly cannot have a Brexit negotiation dominated by Ukip

and the Tory right. We want to have all voices, we want the voices of

working people to get a deal in the exit, which is not just the

stockbrokers and Ukip, but for ordinary people. We want a

negotiation team which will reflect all voices. Jeremy Corbyn... Jeremy

Corbyn wouldn't go on a platform with a Tory, so how do you get a

joint operation between Labour and Tory? We know what happens when the

Labour Party went on a platform with Tories in Scotland. But that is a

different question. What Jeremy did not want to do was to be seen as

part of a Westminster elite telling people what to do. That is a

different question from saying we want working people and the voices

of working people to be part of this exit negotiation. So you are

suggesting some sort of co-operation between all parties in the House of

Commons, labour and Tory on the negotiations with the EU? I am

suggesting the Labour Party will draw up an agenda for Brexiter and

we want the agenda to be reflected in the negotiations. We represent

millions of people who don't trust Paul Nuttall with their best

interests. APPLAUSE

What will be SNP do because they have heard but the people of the UK

have said and they won't be party to this. In this United Kingdom, there

are four Nations. Two of these nations, Northern Ireland and

Scotland didn't vote the 6% for Brexiter. In the case of Scotland it

was 24% majority for Remain. My thing and English and a Welsh MP has

no choice but to follow the mandate from the people in the referendum,

just as I think no Scottish Northern Ireland champion should do anything

but followed the mandate from the electorate. Nicola Sturgeon is ahead

because she is the only politician over the last 48 hours who has been

talking coherent sense as every other political party disintegrates

around them. The first and most important thing is to have

stability. In relation to the Bank of England and the financial

uncertainty, the tools will be in place. We will have a new Prime

Minister in about three months. I am convinced it will need to be a broad

reaching team, not just some divisive racketeer operation. --

Brexiteer. I would reach out to Anna and other colleagues, and say let's

hammer a stronger sense of unity going forward. Let's take the

opportunity here. And beyond the government dealing with the

negotiation, and what we are talking about is to make sure we secure

ongoing trade, we have other Vendy forms of cooperation and take back

democratic control so people in the House of Commons are making the

decisions, rather than politicians and bureaucrats who are not

accountable to the people watching this show or in the audience. But it

would regard to reach out to broader members of civic society, whether it

is the unions, business groups, all parts of the United Kingdom, to make

sure we get it right. But we need to make sure we move away from the

divisiveness of the referendum campaign. If we do that, we will see

the number of people that were concerned about this drop, but we

have to be committed to it. Who do you want as Thai minister? It is

very tempting, but I am not going to get into any of the runners and

riders. I will not be running. But I will not get into any of that now.

Would it have to be a Brexiter? What is important is the next leader of

the Tory party has a good democratic, social mobility message

to an aspirational society. Anyone here. Should we have had the

referendum when we didn't have all of the correct information? Indeed,

let me take with that, a question from Claudia and we will put the two

together. It has become apparent and number of leave voters based their

choice on lies. With this in mind, is the outcome of the referendum

valid? Who would like to go on this? The outcome is a valid. I come from

a country where a government we didn't elect a proposed referendum

we didn't want. Now proposes to take our country out of Europe against

the will of the Scottish people. You are part of the United Kingdom at

this point in time. Every time people dismiss Scotland's

recognition as a nation, we are a country and not a county. People of

Scotland listen to that and say, why isn't our national rights recognised

within the United Kingdom? Nicola Sturgeon propose to David Cameron

the referendum should be conducted in a way that had to have a majority

in all four countries of the United Kingdom. He dismissed that as silly.

He probably thinks it is a lot more sensible now. But the rapper Rendon

is the referendum. All political campaigns had misinformation at

their heart. What was the misinformation on your side of the

argument. Project via on the economy was a rerun of the Scottish

referendum in 2014. It is Mr Cameron and Mr Osborne who didn't

understand, they had others to do their dirty work. The Daily Mail,

the Daily Telegraph, the Sun newspaper. This time they were

trying to get the sewage out but didn't have the sewer to translate

it to the electorate so they ran it with no transmission mechanism. But

I deplore that, I'd appreciate it. But nothing like the project via

that divides communities on the basis on the colour of a person's

skin. I know people who voted out are not racist, but the campaigns,

not just the unofficial one of Ukip, but the other campaign which

featured immigration at their heart because they believed it was their

winning card and it turned out to be their misinformation. Giles Fraser.

Misinformation because they have not promised to deliver? We don't need

to go to Nigel Farage's poster. People from the European Union,

people who were denied a vote in this referendum, hard-working people

paying their taxes but still denied a vote in this country on their own

future. Sorry, I thought you were making another point. Giles Fraser.

I am glad you said you accept the consequences and the results of this

referendum. But there was a rapper Rendon not very long ago for

Scotland to stay in the European, stay in the UK. And I seem to

remember you lost that one. More recently there was an alleged chin

-- election in Scotland last month where Nicola Sturgeon put in her

manifesto if there was a material change in circumstances the Scottish

people have the right to another referendum. Hang on... Hanged on. It

is a disgrace 5 million in Scotland and the SNP are trying to hold to

ransom, 55 million people. Very simple question, do you believe the

outcome of this referendum is now Scotland leave the union? Yes.

Absolutely certain? I have talked about the scare tactics from the

remain macro side and how it rebounded on the economy. But the

litany of scare tactics was when John Major said during the campaign.

We cannot have our country taken out of Europe against the expressed will

of the Scottish people. Incidentally, if you manage to get a

majority of MPs... Dominic Raab. Wait, wait. Would the government

grant another referendum because it is a Westminster decision to have a

referendum in Scotland. You are the justice minister, if Scotland asks,

will they get one? I don't think there is a case for it now. Would

you stop it. Please answer my question. You said you didn't think

there was a case for it. Would you prevent a new Scottish referendum if

they wanted to leave because of Brexiter. Alex is asking for an

immediate referendum. Because of the deterioration of the Scottish budget

deficit, I don't think they would want it now. We should consider this

when we have our exit deal with ongoing trade relationships,

friendly cooperation. Then there will be a choice. Scotland would

either stay in a strong economy in the United Kingdom with a strong

economy giving more democratic powers to Scotland. Enough, let's

leave Scotland now. Enough. The woman up there in the black and

white dress. Everybody agrees here that unity is what is needed now for

this country to move forward. Whatever the decision was and the

outcome and bringing it all together, all the infighting,

particularly from Scotland, you are part of the UK at this point in time

and you voted to remain with us. And the turmoil and fighting Nicola

Sturgeon is creating, trying to split it, it is not the right time

to discuss Scotland's splitting when we are fighting the EU to get the

rights of the British people deserve. I wanted to ask Dominic

Raab, talking about golden opportunities. I am a law student at

the University of Birmingham. Like me, the majority of young people

voted to remain. What are the golden opportunities to students now we

have left the European Union? Can I add to that, Ayew alarmed at the

high proportion of young people who are really upset by the way the vote

went, because the proportion of them, the larger proportion of them

voted to remain. I am concerned to make sure the 48%, including the

younger generation are carried with us. The EU has been disastrous for

the younger generation, given the levels of youth unemployment in the

EU and in particular the Eurozone, rising to 50%. We need to do more to

spell out the positive vision to carry your generation, but also the

whole country with us. What opportunities do you think will come

from Brexit? Better opportunities for jobs, higher wages. I would love

to have answered your question, David moved on. I know Anna alluded

to it earlier, but what would she say to this 19-year-old who voted

Leave. A lot of my generation was incredibly naive in this referendum.

Many of my friends talked about a thought they could get change in the

EU. All the evidence, such as David Cameron's re-negotiation and the

structure of the EU showed we were not going to get that.

APPLAUSE Diane Abbott and then I will come to

you. We are where we are, we have had the rapper Rendon, people have

spoken and they voted for us to leave the EU. Now we must come

together and we must negotiate on behalf of everybody the best deal.

The other thing that needs to be said is this. The decades, not me

because I always believed we were better off in the EU, but

politicians from both parties had said the EU was the root of most of

our troubles. And also, let's be honest, nobody had really made the

case, positive case for immigration into our country. If there is

anything that comes out of this, and I can give you this promise,

whatever my future may not be, I will not stand back any longer and

make the positive case for migration and immigration in our country. It

has delivered the decades, for the benefit of our nation, both

economically and socially. Nobody has said that. You said the positive

case was not made? It has been a failing of all of us as policy

sessions. I am talking about me, if I dare say. I put my hands up, I

have always been liberal on immigration. I have always said

these things, they have not often found a voice and people haven't

this on. Now as a society, let's debate immigration and let the

positive voice sing out about the positive benefits of people who come

here to work. I will be positive about immigration. Immigration is

exceptionally positive when it is controlled. That is what we have got

now, we will get control of our own borders and the people who make the

decisions will be the people we elect at Westminster. It is the

right way to do it. Whilst we are in the European Union signed up to

freedom of movement, we can take back control and be like Australia.

The man in the green shirt. Can I say how upset I am with the remain

macro side of the argument. The only considered EU migrants in this

country, is a non-EU migrants, we have been discriminated hugely by

the UK immigration system because the high numbers coming in from the

EU and all the opportunities, the chances, the jobs are going to EU

nationals and is non-EU nationals have had no rights whatsoever.

Diane Abbott. I understand that argument but I put it to you that if

you really think the right of the Conservative Party and Ukip want to

have fewer Eastern European migrants so they can have more Commonwealth

migrants, you haven't been paying attention.

APPLAUSE On the question of lies and

misrepresentation which somebody raised, some of the promises made by

the Leave people on travel within hours, so Dominic is now telling us

we want to take our time. Loads of people voted thinking we would come

out of Europe today. Immigration, controlling immigration... You guys

just want to rerun the debate. We need to move forward is not

backwards. It's important to show how the promises that people voted

on have unravelled within hours. They haven't! Hours after the poll,

Daniel Hannan was saying we're not going to bring down the numbers of

migrants. As for the millions of pounds that the Leave people said

would be spent on the NHS, Nigel Farage said we never actually said

that... Their story is unravelling! So you would like a referendum

fought again. It's an important vote and I respect the vote. Nigel

Farage... It was vote leave that had that slogan on the side of the bar

-- side of the bus, so please stop scaremongering. I'm sick of it!

We're sick and tired of it, OK! There was an interview on This

Morning with Nigel Farage and the presenter challenged him on the ?350

million. That was vote leave. Nigel Farage was nothing to do with vote

leave. The ?350 million, we all knew it was

a lie. I will take a question from Margaret Sutton and then take

general question that the end. Remain threatened that a vote to

leave would bring Armageddon. As Armageddon arrived for our political

parties instead? -- has it? APPLAUSE

When we went on air, I think Diane Abbott, Jeremy Corbyn had lost ten

members of the Shadow Cabinet. While we've been on air, you won't know

this, he has lost another one, the shadow Attorney General, Kyle

Turner. From Labour's point of view, the party seems to be unravelling

under the pressure of this referendum. People seem very unhappy

with what Jeremy Corbyn did. On the Armageddon, I think the Project Fear

stuff was exaggerated and in the end didn't convince people and that is

why Leave won. On the question of Jeremy Corbyn, it's a funny thing.

One of the clear lessons of this vote to come out of the EU is that

people all over the country don't want politics as usual. And if there

is any party leader who stands for not politics as usual, it is Jeremy

Corbyn. APPLAUSE

The truth is that the Labour MPs who have been running round in circles

today have been planning this for months. Because they have never

accepted the result of last summer's leadership election. It's because

they didn't accent that he played a proper part in the Leave campaign.

No, they've been talking about this for months. It's irrelevant how he

ran the campaign? They've used this... They've been talking about

this for months. Following on from this vote we should be talking about

the people. We should be reconstructing our relationships in

our base, we shouldn't be running around playing Westminster games.

All right, Alex Salmond. I think the lady had a great question. Nicola

Sturgeon looks in fine fettle at the present moment. Well, she does!

Let's not have that the SNP is the answer to every question. The Prime

Minister has gone, 11 members of the Shadow Cabinet have gone, Jeremy

Corbyn might be going... David, I'm just glad you're still here!

LAUGHTER APPLAUSE

You are a fixture. I hate to tell you, I'm not part of the

constitution! Be going of Karl Turner is very significant. He is no

Blairite or troublemaker, he is quite far into the left of the

Labour Party and its deeply significant that Carl has gone, I

have a lot of time for him. Obviously Diane doesn't want to talk

about the meltdown in the Labour Party. I will more than happily talk

about my party. But we need a good, strong opposition. Let's talk about

a good strong government. Do you want Boris as Prime Minister,

leading your party? I'm not friends with Boris at the moment... There's

a good argument that having led this, he should jolly well get on

and make the best of what he has brought us to. But I want a leader

who can be a proper world player, who is a grown up leader with the

credibility and has also had senior experience in national government.

Anyone in mind? Actually I have an open mind. Genuinely, I say what I

think, you know me. There are some very good people coming forward.

It's the qualities we need first that will determine the person.

Giles Fraser. I'm a Jeremy Corbyn fan. I think the Blairites are

making their move now because the Chilcot report is coming out, what

is it, next month... And we know what is going to happen the day

after that! To be serious, the problem is, for the Labour Party, it

is much deeper. What this referendum has revealed is how out of touch so

many of the Labour Party are with their base. It's extremely worrying,

I think, because the people who might be beneficiaries of that are

the far right and that worries me enormously. By my watch we have got

just over five minutes to go. We've heard a lot of arguments. There's

one particular thing I want to raise, because 3 million people who

voted to remain have now asked for another vote, in a petition. I want

to hear from people who voted remain and feel that somehow things went

wrong for them or they are discontented with the answer. You

are, sir? I think the British public not only voted for Brexit but it was

a no-confidence vote in this government, show we should have a

general election. Did you vote Remain? Yes. If we did have a

general election and the winning side explicitly campaign not to

invoke Article 50, is it a realistic possibility that there could be a

second referendum? You would have a general election and then a second

referendum after negotiations? Yes, provided... There is a petition up

at the moment... 3 million. And there is 300,000 of them who sign up

from Vatican City, which only has 800 people living there! Looking at

the details, it's only about 400,000 people who signed that petition who

are eligible to vote in this country. I literally feel that the

Westminster jigsaw has been thrown on the floor and they're going to

have to put this back together. I don't think in the long-term the

Labour Party can survive in its current form. If Jeremy Corbyn gets

35 signatories, he will go back on that ballot paper will -- ballot

paper and he will be re-elected. People like Chuka Umunna and

Tristram Hunt... Have Ukip now done its bit and can now retire? No,

absolutely not. There is a fragmentation between the Labour

Party, the parliamentary party and its base particularly in working

class seats. That is where Ukip's future lies. They had the biggest

vote for Brexit. Open house. You, please. With the request for another

referendum, what happens if people still vote Leave in a second

referendum? Do we just continue having referendum after referendum

until people get it right? APPLAUSE

You, yes. So, I voted remain. It has left me feeling quite upset about

leaving the EU, but also with a deep mistrust of politicians from both

sides of the campaign. I've heard a lot of rhetoric about, we're going

to build hope and bring people together, but what are you actually

going to do? What is it that worries you? It worries me that there are a

lot of parts of society that now feel marginalised and don't feel

part of this country, which I think led a lot of people to vote to leave

and now a lot of other people feel marginalised and not part of

society. I think there needs to be a real engagement in politics. I'm

quite strongly Labour and I think Jeremy Corbyn is a really good

leader. People spend a lot of time trying to undermine him because he

does something different to usual politicians.

APPLAUSE You, sir, at the back. Do you think

it was irresponsible of Cameron not to negotiate a scenario for a Brexit

when he went to negotiate the terms for remaining. He should have done

the two things at the same time, so we had two scenarios. I think if

there is something that has gone wrong... The problem is that you

can't say to people after decades of telling them the EU is not good, in

four months, to say to people, actually, not only is it rather good

but positively go out and vote for it! That has been a problem we have

had in politics. Do you agree? On what aspect? You weren't listening!

I was focused on the question about the political class being broken. I

don't see how trust in the political class has been broken, I don't see

how the answer to that would be to ignore the outcome of a referendum

where we have the biggest direct mandate for change certainly in my

lifetime. The answer has to be to respect that verdict but make sure

and try and find some stronger unity of purpose to go forward in the

manner in which we conduct that exit negotiation. One more, from you.

With 4% of the world's scientists and 16% of the world's highly

respected scientific papers, those rely on ?8.8 billion of EU funding.

How do you expect to have a leading role in a world economy if you can't

find that research? The funding of research. He is right, but we lost.

We have to move on. We have to move on. It's all to play for. I'm sorry,

we've come to the end of our hour. We have had a special edition of

Question Time. We have the regular edition on Thursday in Preston,

after the news. My thanks to our panel and to all of you who came

here to Birmingham this evening. From Question Time, good evening.

Rolls-Royce Corniche - one of the best of the very best.

It may only be half as powerful, a tenth as reliable.