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Stoke-on-Trent Central has been voting today in the by-election, | :00:07. | :00:24. | |
after Tristram Hunt left to run the Victoria and Albert Museum. | :00:25. | :00:31. | |
The polls have closed and so our panel is free to say | :00:32. | :00:33. | |
On the panel Education Secretary, and Conservative MP for Putney | :00:34. | :00:42. | |
Her Labour Shadow, and a woman talked about as a possible successor | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
to Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the party, Angela Rayner. | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
Ukip's sole MP who defected from the Conservatives in 2014, | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
The chairman of Stoke City Football Club | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
and the owner of the online bookmaker, Bet365, | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
And the journalist and co-author of a controversial biography | :01:00. | :01:05. | |
APPLAUSE Thank you very much. | :01:06. | :01:21. | |
As ever, you can join the debate on Facebook, | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
First question comes from Aden. Does the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn | :01:24. | :01:37. | |
still represent the working class and communities such as Stoke? | :01:38. | :01:45. | |
Justine Greening. Stoke has been a safe Labour seat since it was | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
created decades ago. The answer to your question is no, there was a | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
time when Labour had something to say to working people but that time | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
I think has passed. It would be interesting to see what the results | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
are in Stoke later. The fact we are talking about the fact that Labour | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
might lose the seat tells you about the predicament the party is in | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
because they are not representing working people around the country. I | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
think it is the Conservative Party with Theresa May that is setting | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
about making sure we have a low tax economy, jobs and careers for people | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
and somebody who is standing up for us as we leave the EU and getting a | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
good deal for Britain. The polls close to 50 minutes ago. Any | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
indication of what has happened? We will have to wait and see. If there | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
is one thing we have learned is probably not to rely on polls. As in | :02:42. | :02:53. | |
the opinion polls. Have you got any indication how it has gone tonight? | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
I don't take anything for granted, ever. Do you think you have won? I | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
don't know. I have not been at the ballot box. My information is it | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
looks like Labour has taken a seat. Peter Coates. I think Labour made | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
the mistake, it does represent working people. I don't accept the | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
Tories represent working people and Labour doesn't. APPLAUSE | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
It has never been like that in my lifetime and I don't believe it is | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
today. I do see an opportunity because the | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Labour Party is in a bit of a mess and Jeremy Corbyn as leader, has | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
obviously not connected with the great British public. I think the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
majority do not see him as a future Prime Minister. It has its work cut | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
out, as with Scotland, Scotland was taken for granted. I hope it is a | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
wake-up call for Labour to realise that they have got to make sure they | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
represent places such as Stoke and there are many places like Stoke | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
around the country, and get their act together. What we need is a | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
leader who can connect with a great British public, has a chance of | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
winning. And of course UV policies. APPLAUSE | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
-- you deed. Peter, what is it you think that | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
goes wrong. If you said the party does not represent properly places | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
like Stoke, what is it that goes wrong with a party, is it because it | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
is complacent because it is re-elected? I think complacency | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
plays a part. You get taken for granted. I think Scotland got taken | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
for granted and Labour got wiped out and they are in danger unless they | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
get their act together and realise their priority is to ensure | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
working-class people are properly represented and considered and a | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
part of this country, they will suffer. I think there is a | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
realisation now within the party this has got to be done. You, on the | :05:11. | :05:18. | |
second row. Can I ask the panel if they say Labour no longer represents | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
the working class, who does represent the working class? Lets | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
search for that. Douglas Carswell. I don't think the Labour Party does | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
represent the traditional working-class vote it used to | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
represent. It is no longer the party of Keir Hardie. If Labour holds the | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
seat and I think it is likely, the fact it is regarded as a triumph | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
tells you quite how dire the crisis is on the centre-left in British | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
politics. There is a fundamental problem with the Labour Party and it | :05:49. | :05:55. | |
goes beyond the shortcomings of Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. It used | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
to represent the interests of organised labour. For many | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
generations it has represented the interest of career politicians in | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
London and there is a fundamental disconnect between the Parliamentary | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
party and traditional Labour votes. I think there is a race to see who | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
can take their place. The Liberal party used to hold sway in fast | :06:16. | :06:23. | |
parts of the country. I think we could see a new insurgent party if | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
it gets its act together that can displace the Labour Party. There is | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
an opportunity for a different type of party. Just before we go on. Ukip | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
had its new leader Paul Nuttall standing here and you seem to have | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
conceded he has not won. I think the most likely outcome is Labour will | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
win. Stoke is not even in our top 50 target seats. It has been a Labour | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
voting constituency did since 1950. If we were to win, it would be such | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
an earthquake, it would be akin to the Spen Valley election of 1919 | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
which mark the demise of the old Liberal party. I know about | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
by-elections, we fought and got a good swing to my new party in | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
Clacton. In terms of the mechanics of the campaign, Paul Nuttall and | :07:14. | :07:20. | |
Ukip have fought a good campaign in terms of organisational structure, | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
and we have not had the South Thanet mayhem we have had in previous | :07:25. | :07:27. | |
contests. You have had the Hillsborough mayhem. The man with | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
his hand up. If Paul Nuttall does not win tonight, can we expect his | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
new house in Stoke to be back on the market tomorrow? LAUGHTER APPLAUSE | :07:43. | :07:51. | |
All right. Hardly be lived in. Angela Rayner. I | :07:52. | :07:58. | |
recognise people'sfrustration with the Labour Party. I was elected in | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
2015 and I am probably one of the only people on the panel who had a | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
manual job, a home carer before coming into Parliament, and I come | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
from the trade union, and not one where I was elected rather than | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
appointed into it. I feel the frustration and I am what people | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
consider to be a safe Labour seat but I have never seen my seat is | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
safe Labour. Scotland is a wake-up call to insure we do that. People | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
feel left behind by successive governments that have not rebalance | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
the economy. Labour did great things, we built schools and | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
invested in the NHS, but the infrastructure and economy around | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
our areas, we feel like we are on our knees and not supported and they | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
are not supplying the economies will stop the help required in the | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
Midlands, Northwest, north-east and in areas where they feel left behind | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
after the deindustrialisation of the UK. APPLAUSE | :08:59. | :09:08. | |
When Mr Corbyn says its problems with the media that is doing him | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
down, you don't agree? We have always had problems with the | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
media. You cannot blame everything on the media. Donald Trump stars. -- | :09:17. | :09:26. | |
does. The problem with the country is we have stopped making things and | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
become a giant warehouse and we need to produce again. People will vote | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
for people who get us back on our feet and producing and making more | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
things. And the sign that comes out of Labour does not resonate with | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
you? Nobody at the moment. Isabel Oakeshott. I think whatever the | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
result tonight, Jeremy Corbyn should go. | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
APPLAUSE Nobody literally nobody except | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
possibly Angela Rayner looks at Jeremy Corbyn and thinks he will be | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
Prime Minister. I think the current Labour leadership is diluted, it is | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
discredited, and doomed. Frankly it is doing a great disservice to those | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
of us who want to see a robust opposition to the Tory government. | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
APPLAUSE You, sir. I disagree. I think Jeremy | :10:23. | :10:31. | |
Corbyn is a wonderful leader. If he is given the chance. He is an honest | :10:32. | :10:39. | |
man and sincere man and he does not stretch the truth like Ukip does. | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
Who is not giving him the chance? His party? The media, for a start. | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
What about his party? His Shadow Cabinet who resigned? Stoke-on-Trent | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
is a Labour supporting area and surely Angela Rayner and people like | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
her should stand behind their leader. Peter Coates, I will come to | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
you, but the woman there. I struggle to understand what people | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
want from a leader. I think Jeremy Corbyn has integrity and is honest. | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
When I have been to Stoke to rallies he has spoken act, he has got great | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
support. -- spoken at. I want an honest leader, not somebody who is | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
all singing and dancing but tells lies, or is disingenuous. I want | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
somebody honest and with integrity and I think Jeremy Corbyn has got | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
that. Peter Coates. First of all I want to | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
pick up on the comment about manufacturing. Stoke has retained | :11:49. | :11:57. | |
many factories. Something like 13.5% of output of this city. It is the | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
highest manufacturing contribution of any city in the UK. We have done | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
rather well comparatively. I am afraid we have to realise these | :12:12. | :12:13. | |
manufacturing jobs by and large are not coming back but the ceramic | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
industry has got itself together and is doing well and growing, taking on | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
more jobs. Do not despair in that sense. The city from a manufacturing | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
point of view has done well. You, sir. I don't think it matters who | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
Labour have as leader, I think they will be wiped out at the next | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
election anyway. Why? They are 18 points behind in the polls. A lot of | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
working-class people have gone to Ukip, like myself. I have voted | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
Labour all my life and I would not vote them again because they do not | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
represent my view of the world. How did you vote today? I voted for | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
Ukip. Let's talk about Ukip. Heath. Just before we go one, Bedford next | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
week, if you are listening in Bedford. Sunderland the week after. | :13:06. | :13:11. | |
That is where Question Time will be. Stephen Heath, can we have your | :13:12. | :13:18. | |
question? Is defeat for Ukip in the Brexit capital by-election today the | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
end of the party? The Brexit capital is what Paul Nuttall called Stoke | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
because it was in the top group of parts of the country that voted for | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
Brexit. If they are defeated here, is it the end of the party, Angela | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
Rayner? I think Ukip are a busted flush. They are a one issue party. | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
Both of the main political parties said they respect the will of the | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
people. They have triggered Article 50. We will look at the best still | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
possible. Ukip have no strategy on how to be in government and cannot | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
even tell the truth. Their leader has told so many lies, he makes | :13:59. | :14:00. | |
Donald Trump looked honest. APPLAUSE Douglas Carswell? We were always the | :14:01. | :14:13. | |
underdogs in this contest. We were always up against a party that has | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
been elected in Stoke since the middle of the last century. But, you | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
know, I think that, although we fought a good campaign in terms of | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
the mechanics of the campaign, I do accept that we have a problem and | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
that was evident in this contest as it's been evident in other election | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
contests and that is that we are not given the benefit of the doubt. I | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
think the benefit of the doubt in politics is absolutely worth its | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
weight in gold. In any by-election, in any election whatsoever you will | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
get things thrown at you, people will look at old blog posts and what | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
you wrote on Twitter some years ago, I understand the Labour Party had a | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
few issues with that. If people give you the benefit of the doubt, you | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
can get through that. We as a party need to ask ourselves, what is it | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
about our values and about us that mean many people aren't giving us | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
the benefit of the doubt. That's a key question regardless of the | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
outcome of the by-election I think we need to ask ourselves on Friday | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
morning. If we are going to be credible, we need to understand why | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
it is people have not given us the benefit of the doubt. I think a lot | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
of it is to do with the legacies of the Shock and Awe tactics we had in | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
the run-up to the last election. There are issues to do with that | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
that need to be addressed in order for us to win seats. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
How can you carry on as a party when Nigel Farage, who is seen as, apart | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
from you, as the main Ukip candidate, says you shouldn't be in | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
the party and doesn't believe in what they stand for. Farage and you | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
seem to be completely at odds at what Ukip is. He seems to represent | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
Ukip, you are the leader of Ukip in the House of Commons. He's | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
representing Ukip or LBC in Washington, I'm not going to have a | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
dig at him though. You just did, Douglas, you just did. I think he's | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
done some great things. I think it's because of him that Ukip became the | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
force that it's been but I think now Paul has to take us to the next | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
level and I think he's begun to do that. You are banging on about | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
giving the benefit of the doubt. Unless you know something the rest | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
of us don't, you are not even giving your own party the benefit of the | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
doubt, you are sounding as though it'ses a definite defeat for Ukip | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
tonight. We don't know that. Secondly, as I was making my way up | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
here tonight, I had a very interesting tip-off and since we are | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
here, I thought I would ask you directly about it. David has | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
mentioned the feud between yourself and Nigel Farage which you yourself | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
brought up - I understand that Nigel Farage should have got a Knighthood, | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
I personally believe he deserves to get a nighthood and he was... | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
APPLAUSE. He was certainly put forward for a | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
Knighthood and it appeared that everything was going swimmingly | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
until you were asked to give your endorsement to that and you failed | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
to do so. Was that true? That's simply not the case. That's | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
certainly what I've heard. I would love it if I had the power to give | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
Knight haths. I said you were asked to give your backing to it. I | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
absolutely... So you were never asked to give backing or feedback or | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
comment on it? Absolutely not at all. Is it in your power to give | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
Knighthoods to Nigel Farage? I wish it were. Would you? I've often | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
called him Sir. I don't know what we make of that. Justine Greening? It | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
Liams like Ukip was a one-man party at the end of the day. A Carswell or | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
Farage party? He's got through a few leaders so maybe Douglas can do it | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
next. Before the referendum last year, I mean clearly Ukip campaigned | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
for us to come out of Europe and it seems to me that part of the problem | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
is, people don't know what Ukip stands for now and also the | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
characters involved and the question about Paul Nuttall putting his house | :18:17. | :18:18. | |
on the market perhaps tomorrow morning. I think there's a sense of | :18:19. | :18:25. | |
people not knowing what Paul Nuttall stood forrant and didn't have a | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
sense as to who was going to benefit from him getting elected, was it | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
people in Stoke who needed a local MP to represent their community or | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
was it going to be Paul Nuttall who wanted more profile for Paul Nuttall | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
and it seemed to everyone like it was the latter. You, Sir? Douglas | :18:44. | :18:51. | |
just made a point about Ukip like having a good campaign this time | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
around, but I think one of the fundamental things that Paul Nat | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
tall got wrong is, if he's going to apply to be a Member of Parliament | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
for Stoke, one of the things he should know, this city's got six | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
towns and he should be able to name every one of those six towns. Once | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
he got that wrong, all his credibility was gone. And you? It's | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
not true that Ukip didn't see this as a target. They threw everything | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
at this election, including how an expensive shop in the middle of | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
Hanley. You haven't had the benefit of your lies, you haven't been given | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
the benefit of the division and the benefit of the hate. That's what the | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
people have voted against you. APPLAUSE. | :19:34. | :19:43. | |
We are talking about the present Ukip leader Paul Nuttall and you've | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
heard me criticise Jeremy Corbyn tonight, well he seems a paragon of | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
virtue to me compared with Paul Nuttall. If that's the best Ukip can | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
do... APPLAUSE. | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
If that's the best they can do, they are in a mess. They're a party of | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
anti-immigration and out of Europe and they are trying to come in and | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
take this working class vote, as they're talk about, and there's | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
nothing I've heard come from Paul Nuttall that would suggest he's got | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
any interest in the values of working class people. The most | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
important thing for working class people is the National Health | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
Service and he's talked about, he'd like to do away with privatising it. | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
As for Nigel Farage, he's damaged the country beyond measure for me | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
because... APPLAUSE. | :20:39. | :20:51. | |
Because Don't be misled because of Europe. This is going to play out | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
very badly for Britain. The woman on the gangway? Sorry, I don't have to | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
agree with that point, Peter. Unfortunately, I think you are | :21:05. | :21:06. | |
speaking for a minority in Stoke-on-Trent. We had the highest | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
percentage that voted to leave the EU and with respect, I think the | :21:13. | :21:15. | |
downfall of Ukip is down to the fact that Nigel Farage is no longer their | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
leader. It doesn't mean you're right. Just a | :21:21. | :21:30. | |
word Douglas before we go on. Brexit says Brexit means the Prime Minister | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
and keeps saying it. That is what Ukip wants. What is there for them | :21:35. | :21:38. | |
to do if that is what the Conservative Party is doing? I think | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
politics is a cartel, it's run by a two-and-a-half party system in | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
Westminster. We've got them to do the right thing by Brexit by Ukip's | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
efforts forcing the referendum and winning the referendum. But there | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
are all sorts of other things we need to change. Politics is a cartel | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
and until that's broken, we are never going to get the politicians | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
to represent us properly. Things around Brexit or are you talking | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
about quite different things? Monetary policy - that for the past | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
generation's favoured big banks in London rather than manufacturing in | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
towns like Stoke. We need a monetary policy run in the interests of the | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
whole country, not the small banking oligarch here in London. | :22:18. | :22:24. | |
You, Sir? Do you feel that the Brexit and Trump phenomenon's that | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
are happening across the world are correlated to racism or any of that | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
stuff? What do you think? I think it's because everyone is completely | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
disillusioned with the political clath class in tuft kingdom. | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
APPLAUSE. -- political class in the United | :22:44. | :22:52. | |
Kingdom? Angela? Everyone is fed up with those who've not been | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
representing them or speaking on their behalf and, actually, it | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
wasn't Ukip that delivered Brexit, it was the people. It was the will | :22:59. | :23:00. | |
of the people. APPLAUSE. | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
It will be carried out by all of the MPs that are in Parliament, | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
otherwise at their peril if they don't listen to the will of the | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
people because that's our democracy and we respect our democracy. We | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
have got to move on from that and start talking about OK, people were | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
blaming Europe as why we weren't having the jobs here, immigration | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
was the issue. Now they are not the issues, get on and start building | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
and building our industries around here and giving our young people | :23:28. | :23:30. | |
jobs and opportunities. That's what people want. | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
APPLAUSE. You at the very back? I'm not | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
surprised they are disillusioned because in an area that voted for | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
them to leave, Labour put up a candidate that's a massive remainor. | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
He's been absolutely clear throughout his campaign, although he | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
was personally a remainor, that he respects the will of the people and | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
he would have voted to trigger Article 50 and Labour voted to | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
trigger Article 50. He's not been shouting about it though has he? If | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
he gets quizzed on it, he answers it but he hasn't mentioned it all | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
along. I can only talk about what we've done and the record that we've | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
had and we have been absolutely clear. Jeremy, as our leader, has | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
been absolutely clear that we were a party of remain, just like the | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
Conservatives were, but the electorate voted out, so we are | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
coming out of Europe. You mention disillusionment, what's the point in | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
putting a Remainor in an area that people don't want that. They don't | :24:35. | :24:38. | |
want that in Stoke. How many members of the Labour Party in the House of | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
Commons voted against Article 50? There was a number... How many? A | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
number of... How many? There was a number... One in five. There was | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
a... He's got a point. You have got to understand that their | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
constituents, they voted for overwhelmingly remaining. People in | :24:57. | :25:02. | |
Stoke voted overwhelmingly to leave. So why choose a Remainor? Why would | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
you choose that? If the constituents vote here to Leave, why select a | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
Remainor? Gareth was clear in his hustings and has been clear | :25:15. | :25:18. | |
throughout the whole of his candidacy that he respects the will | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
of the people. Fine, let us leave that and see what happens if he is | :25:22. | :25:27. | |
elected. We hear that Copeland has been held by Labour. The Tories | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
haven't taken that. It's people at the count looking at people's faces | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
I suspect and showing whether they are disappointed or not. If The man | :25:38. | :25:45. | |
by the monitor? Two brief points. Angela Rayner, about the MPs who | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
voted against triggering Article 50 were from constituencies which | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
overwhelmingly backed remain. I don't remember Newcastle under | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
Leinbaching remain and Paul Farrelly backing not triggering Article 50. | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
Back to the essence of the question, I think that I will say that I voted | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
for Ukip in this by-election, but Ukip has fundamentally failed to do | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
what it needs to do. It's not been able to get rid of the image of | :26:16. | :26:23. | |
racism or unprofessionalty. You voted for it you say? I voted for it | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
because... APPLAUSE. | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
I voted for it because I saw the other issues which it wasn't | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
campaigning enough about. It needs to stress if it wants to campaign | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
against the massive white elephants brought about by the party, HSII... | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
OK, so you had other reasons apart from the Brexit? I think that... All | :26:49. | :26:56. | |
right. Let us stick with it albeit in a slightly different manner with | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
a question from Joan Fox, please? Has Tony Blair's intervention on | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
Brexit helped or hindered the Remain cause? A word about Tony Blair's | :27:06. | :27:13. | |
intervention who said, we are going to be poorer once these Brexit | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
negotiations are complete, the country is going to be poorer and | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
everybody will say that leaving is inevitable, but it isn't. Angela | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
Rayner, is he right? We are triggering Article 50 and leaving | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
Europe, that is clear, that's what... Do people have a right to | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
change their mind, as Tony Blair said? Tony Blair's a right to his | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
opinion and there is a lot of people in this country that hold the same | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
view as Tony Blair. You've got to respect that some people have that | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
view. But let's be clear that we are going down that road of leaving | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
Europe and it's about what sort of economy we have and how we untangle | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
some of the selection around that because we need to bring that back. | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
We can't keep going on having the same argument like ground hog day, | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
are we going out of Europe, are we going out. We are going out, people | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
are fed up with people intervening trying to rehash it, we don't want | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
to go there again, move on, get on with the real job of bringing jobs | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
and the economy back to where we want it. Back to what your former | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
leader said - as the terms become clear of Brexit, he said, if people | :28:19. | :28:23. | |
are going to change their minds, our mission is to persuade them to do | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
so. In other words if things don't turn out well, Labour should be in a | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
position to say, you don't have to go there, Parliament should be in a | :28:30. | :28:33. | |
position to say this hasn't worked out as Douglas Carswell thought it | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
might. Is that a fair position? Well, the last 18 months since I've | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
been elected to Parliament are not what I thought they'd be so I'm not | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
predicting because I would never have predicted that we'd be where we | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
are today with Donald Trump. There is no will of the people to rehash | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
and have the argument again and again, we are coming out of Europe, | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
I'm focussed on getting the best deal for the working class people of | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
Britain making sure that I do the stuff as a Labour politician that | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
will make people of Stoke and the rest of the working class people in | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
this country proud of the Labour Party. | :29:10. | :29:10. | |
Fine. APPLAUSE. | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
Douglas, I will come to you but Justine Greening, how did you vote | :29:19. | :29:26. | |
on the issue of Remain, Leave? I supported the Brexit bill that went | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
through Parliament. On June the 23rd? Remain. In the same way most | :29:30. | :29:39. | |
people in Stoke were for Leave, I was opposite. If the negotiations do | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
not go as you hope they will and the Prime Minister hopes they will, if | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
it gets difficult and is not quite what is expected, if Tony Blair is | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
right to the country is poorer, there are fewer jobs as a result, | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
should it be the House of Commons' business to say, we will change our | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
mind, we will not do it like this, or is it game, set and match to | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
Leave? The Prime Minister said we will get on with Brexit. The | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
question asked, to answer it, anybody who is still campaigning for | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
Remain is hindered by Tony Blair getting involved. It is almost the | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
kiss of death. We talked about why people are disillusioned. A lot of | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
the roots of disillusionment started when Tony Blair was Prime Minister, | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
he said he wanted people to get out in the street who cared about | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
Europe. He ignored them when they did that in relation to the Iraq | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
War. He represents the elite politician that was a complete | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
turn-off for millions of this country and I think he is | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
discredited to enter the discussion about where our future is after the | :30:46. | :30:50. | |
EU and I think it is outrageous he has got the cheek to turn around to | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
the British people and say to them he does not accept the decision we | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
took in our referendum. APPLAUSE | :30:59. | :31:10. | |
The Mall at the very back. A large part of economic performance is down | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
to public sentiment and every time a high-profile person comes on | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
television and says we are going to be poorer and Brexit will hurt us, | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If people believe that, it will hurt | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
us. Peter Coates, do you agree? I believe it will hurt and damage us | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
very much and I think there is a distinction on voting coming out and | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
what the terms are. I find it difficult to disagree with anything | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
he said and he has every right to say it, Tony Blair, and this in my | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
view will cost us dearly, unless, the caveat is, I do not know what | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
the terms will be. If we come out and are able to stay in the single | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
market, we will be fine. If we come out, we will be in deep trouble. | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
Don't take much notice of the last six months, the next two years, this | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
is a long game. We shall see this play out over the two, three, five | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
years. We will look back and say, why did we do that? I started my | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
business in 1968 and I do not know what the European Union has stopped | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
me doing. I hear talk about... It stopped me doing nothing. I never | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
felt I was governed by Parliament. I have MPs around me and I believe | :32:37. | :32:42. | |
they govern us. I have never felt governed other than by Westminster. | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
The law courts. We built Europe into a bogeyman it is not and time will | :32:48. | :32:48. | |
tell. APPLAUSE | :32:49. | :32:58. | |
I have no idea how you can possibly be so negative at this stage, when | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
all the signs so far, you are quick to dismiss, are positive. The banks | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
are upgrading forecasts, none of the predictions of doom we had about | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
terrible economic crashes the minute we voted to leave have materialised. | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
How can you be so incredibly pessimistic? What you are talking | :33:20. | :33:25. | |
about is so short-term as to be completely and utterly irrelevant. | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
You have to look at the longer term. Let me tell you something about our | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
economy. Peter, Peter. Let's Douglas Carswell have a say. About 20 years | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
ago Tony Blair, Ken Clarke and Michael Heseltine sat on the stage | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
like this and warned that if we did not give up the pound and join the | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
euro, the economy would suffer. We were told again and again we could | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
not afford to be part of Europe. -- euro. Thank goodness we did not take | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
their advice. I expect in ten years it will be difficult to find people | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
who were saying they were actively campaigning to remain. You take the | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
example of the euro and did use the same is true, this is bigger than | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
the euro, leaving. Trying to organise the economic and social | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
affairs of hundreds of millions by grand design leads to catastrophe | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
and by insulating ourselves from the worst aspects, the euro, Schengen, | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
our strength in Euro policy is not joining in. We do not want to fight | :34:35. | :34:42. | |
the June 23 debate. The negotiations are about to begin and the question | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
is, the Tony Blair point com if they are not going well, is Parliament in | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
a position to modify Britain's exit from the EU? I think it is unhelpful | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
for Tony Blair to make this intervention because I want a new | :34:58. | :35:02. | |
consensus on Europe and a deal that allows Angela, Justine and Paul | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
Nuttall to agree on a new consensus on Europe. It has been divisive. I | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
do not want to go through the referendum again, I want a new | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
national consensus and the idea that yesterday's man, the man responsible | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
for providing over the boom and bust can wade in and say, present the | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
fantasy idea that somehow not leaving is an option is unhelpful. | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
APPLAUSE A number of hands are up. | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
You answer him. Let's get back to the economy, the car industry, a | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
success in this country, because we have been bailed out by foreign | :35:42. | :35:49. | |
companies, and the investment in our car industry is from India, America, | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
France, Germany. They have sorted the problem is out. They put proper | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
investment in, long-term investment. Britain does not do long-term | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
investment well. We rely on international investment in this | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
country and we shall become less attractive. You do not have to | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
agree, but wait and see. Why do you think it will go pear shaped? The | :36:15. | :36:24. | |
negotiations have not begun. We have a trade deficit and it is the | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
highest for 70 years. Is that great? The highest in 70 years. The thing I | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
agree with Peter on is it is about the terms, not about whether we are | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
coming out or not. We have businesses and trading partners in | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
Europe we need to make sure... We cannot do it piecemeal, which is | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
what the government seems to be doing with the car dealerships. We | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
have to make sure we support small and medium enterprises in Britain to | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
make sure they can continue to trade with Europe. Since the vote we have | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
had a range of companies announce huge investment in the UK whether it | :37:04. | :37:12. | |
is Google, apple, there has been a huge amount of investment coming | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
into the UK the. Let me go to the audience. The woman and then you. | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
Given Tony Blair's track record is taking us to war on the flimsiest of | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
evidence, why should anybody take his advice? Most people'sinstinctive | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
reaction to his advice is to do exactly the opposite. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
APPLAUSE Yes? I agree with the lady who has | :37:42. | :37:50. | |
just spoken. I think Tony Blair should now keep quiet, tend his | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
garden or allotment at home. I think his intervention recently, as many | :37:55. | :38:05. | |
commentators said, to harm Jeremy Corbyn. He was hoping by him making | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
this intervention, he wished dent any potential of Labour gaining in | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
the by-elections today. If the reports coming through are correct, | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
it looks as though Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party has in fact gained the | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
elections today. Held, we should save. The man here. There are many | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
things about Tony Blair I disagree with but I respect his right to say | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
what he thinks. APPLAUSE | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
The most important thing in the past few months was the Gina Miller case | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
and I had a mini numberplate made with her name on and attached it to | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
my car and drove it around one day to celebrate the fact Parliament | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
would decide and not just Mrs May. I left it on one day because I thought | :39:01. | :39:09. | |
I would get my car keyed. It was Tony Blair's fault why | :39:10. | :39:16. | |
Britain voted out of Europe. He said 50,000 people would come into this | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
country and 1 million people came in. Too much change to quickly and | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
that is why people turn to Ukip. What do you make of David Davis | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
saying it will be years and years and years before we end immigration? | :39:30. | :39:35. | |
It will be. It is Tony Blair's fault. He should have put a cap on | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
it and slowly done it. There is another point here. Having | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
politicians, former politicians like Tony Blair, talking about a second | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
referendum, some kind of veto, really undermines our Prime Minister | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
she begins this process of negotiation. It is pulling the rug | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
from under her. I think it is deep in the arm patriotic to do that. | :40:03. | :40:10. | |
APPLAUSE -- unpatriotic. Where was Tony Blair | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
when Stoke-on-Trent was losing jobs? Too busy messing around Europe | :40:16. | :40:17. | |
rather than looking after his own people. We will go onto another | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
question. Shouldn't the government be doing | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
more to improve the educational level in the country rather than | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
just focusing on creating more grammar schools. We are creating a | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
gap in the north and south divide we have in education. The grammar | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
schools the government has announced proposals, we have two, we have the | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
education minister and the shadow. Proposals to allow new grammar | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
schools. Is that still on the cards? You are smiling as if you are not | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
quite sure about this policy. You want to drop it? Not at all. You are | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
keen on it? We had consultation that finished in December and we are | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
going through results and will set out the next steps in the spring. We | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
want to take away the band that stops grammar schools being created. | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
They are popular with parents. As important, you talked about how we | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
can make sure we lift up young people and everybody comes out of | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
schools with a great education. When you look at disadvantaged children | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
who go to grammar schools their progress is twice as fast in a | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
grammar school as they're better off peers. It is part of how we close | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
the gap. It is not the whole of our approach on education. A few weeks | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
ago I announced Oak would be an opportunity area, which means we | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
work inside schools in Stoke to raise outcomes for children but also | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
outside with local businesses and the community, making sure young | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
people have work experience, mentoring, and we are doing that in | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
12 places where we think we can make a difference. Your answer to him is | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
you are not just focusing on grammar schools but you are still committed | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
to the expansion of grammar schools? Yes, and we want to ensure every | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
child can reach their potential, which means having an education | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
system that meets the different needs of children and grammar | :42:28. | :42:30. | |
schools are a part of that and it is time we understood that. The system | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
has changed massively in the last ten years and it is time to look at | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
how grammar schools can play a role. Not just the children who get into | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
grammar schools but other schools as well. | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
The woman on the fourth row. I agree grammar schools are improving. I | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
believe the old education system of having the three levels of schooling | :42:56. | :43:02. | |
is something we should go back to. My mother went to a grammar school, | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
Clayton Manor, locally around here, and again, like we have said, she | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
worked twice as hard and got her scholarship and went forward. I do | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
not think grammar schools are about a north-south divide, they should be | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
for everybody and I can see that investment having a big impact on | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
places like Stoke-on-Trent. Angela Rayner. I have to disagree with | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
that. I don't think grammar schools are an answer to the crisis the | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
government has created in schools. It is a life raft for children. | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
APPLAUSE The crisis in our schools is that | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
98% of schools are seeing significant funding cuts. The | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
government promised in their manifesto that per-pupil funding | :43:55. | :44:01. | |
would be protected, it hasn't. Pupil numbers are increasing, national | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
insurers pressures, we have all these issues that are having an | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
impact on our schools where they aren't looking at facing an 8% cut | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
and the national funding formula is still a very unfair formula that is | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
penalising children. Where are you on grammar schoolsI don't ink they | :44:19. | :44:25. | |
aid social mobility. The evidence is clear it doesn't. There is not a | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
scrap of evidence it does. The attainment gap is greater in Kent as | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
opposed to Hackney, where there are no grammar schools in their area. | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
2.6% of free school meals in grammars whereas in other schools | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
its 14.9%. The evidence is clear. Grammar schools are not the answer. | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
Qualified teachers and money in our state schools is. APPLAUSE | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
options Is it not more of a Conservative driven theme for | :44:55. | :45:03. | |
putting certain money into certain schools for certain children. | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
APPLAUSE. Isabel? The one-size-fits-all policy | :45:07. | :45:17. | |
clearly hasn't worked. When Blair came in, he said education, | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
education, education. You said it's the failures of this Government, but | :45:23. | :45:28. | |
actually, where are we now? We are 15th in the international | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
educational league tables. We are behind Vietnam, so really the system | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
that we've had and that we inherited from the Labour years hasn't worked. | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
I disagree... If you look at the London challenge where Labour did | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
invest all of that money, and we have got a comprehensive state | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
system, actually the attainment gap was narrowed, it was transformative, | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
we wanted that bring that to the Midlands and Manchester. The | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
coalition Government scrapped it and they have not protected funding and | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
Michael Gove said they would be held to account by the league tables and | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
you failed because you have gone down that league table. | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
APPLAUSE. The children who took the tests in | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
the latest standard tables were children educated under Labour, | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
Angela. You, Sir? Do I read correctly that the Government is | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
planning to invest something approaching ?10 billion in free | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
schools over the next period of years to about 20, 21 and we read | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
almost daily reports of the underfunding of general schools, | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
staffing crises, buildings falling to pieces and yet the Government can | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
find ?10 billion for free schools - is that justified? | :46:53. | :46:54. | |
APPLAUSE. Hold on. | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
Let me bring in Douglas Carswell and Peter Coats and we'll come back to | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
you on that? I'm massively in favour of free schools. Any debate about | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
either Governments' record has to acknowledge that in all three | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
parties, there have been some good reformers. Andrew Adonis, Michael | :47:19. | :47:24. | |
Gove, they've given us the academy programme and that's helped and | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
improved things in the education system. I hope Justine builds on | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
that cross party achievement. When it comes to free schools, the reason | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
why I'm so strongly in favour of them is, something that happened in | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
my constituency as a new MP in 2005, a ?16 million brand-new school was | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
opened by Tony Blair three days before the 2005 general election, | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
?16 million it cost, it was closed three years later. The existing | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
system doesn't allocate resources effectively. Imagine what you could | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
do in terms of free schools with that sum of money in a town like | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
Clacton which needs free schools. They are not just the preserve of | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
people in places like London. Do you want to come babble on the point? | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
There is evidence that certain free schools are being opened in areas | :48:08. | :48:13. | |
which do not need them. My view is that there should be equality, that | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
that money should be spread right across the system to give every | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
child a good school in the area where he lives. With respect, Sir... | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
APPLAUSE. With respect, Sir, shouldn't we | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
leave it to the parents of the children to decide if those free | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
schools are needed because by definition you can't open a free | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
school unless there is a need for it. Peter Coates? Gram mar schools | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
are irrelevant and do nothing to improve the schooling for our | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
children. Isabel talked about where we are in the league, we have been | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
in that position for God knows how long and we have had different | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
Governments bring in reform, reform, reform. What the education system | :48:56. | :49:04. | |
needs is - Finland reformed its education system in the 70s and 80s. | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
It has one school system for every child, no private education - one | :49:12. | :49:13. | |
system. APPLAUSE. | :49:14. | :49:23. | |
That is how you get equality of opportunity and we are short of | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
funds, we are short of teachers and they say, they are talking about how | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
wonderful everything is. We can't fund the Health Service properly, we | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
can't fund after-care service properly and we are short of | :49:39. | :49:41. | |
teachers in education. It's all great. You, Sir? Under the national | :49:42. | :49:57. | |
funding, 9,000 schools face cuts. Investing in young people and in | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
youth, that is what you should do. I agree. There is record investment | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
going into our schools. We have had to create lots of more school places | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
because of the demographic bulge of children coming into primary, then | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
moving into secondary. The last Parliament we created 600,000 school | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
places, many of them were free schools but not by any means | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
entirely, we have got to do another 600,000. You raised a good point | :50:25. | :50:30. | |
about where the places were needed. The report that came out earlier | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
this week said overwhelmingly they were so that is good news. As | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
Douglas points out, under free schools, we had local communities | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
able to take their own decisions about schools and that was really | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
important. In term s TfL outcomes, Ofsted's said nine out of ten of our | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
schools almost are good or outstanding, that is a huge rise | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
from 2010. When we inherited a schools system that was seeing about | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
a third of children coming out not even to do the basics on reading and | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
writing, we had to come a long way, but we had year-by-year improving | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
our system and we are going round the world, places like Shanghai in | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
China to bring back the very best in teaching to make sure we can find | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
the best of teaching across England as well to make sure that our | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
teachers know how to teach the best that they possibly can and our | :51:24. | :51:29. | |
children can benefit. More points from the audience. The woman up | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
there? I currently attend a secondary school, an academy. | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
Recently, I'm aware that the year below me are no longer doing work | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
experience. We have a new GCSE, everyone seems so panicked, | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
different schools are deciding what their pass rate is with the new | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
system, I don't understand why we are voting on schools and schools | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
that are trying hard aren't receiving the support they need and | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
there is general information that we do not have. You on the gangway? | :52:03. | :52:13. | |
Last year, only 54% of 11-year-olds reached the required level in Stoke. | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
How can further cuts to the education system raise attainment? | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
And you over there, Sir? Douglas has mentioned the success of the academy | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
system. Why have we recently scrapped that and where's the money | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
gone for that, about ?500 million that we have recently lost to invest | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
in the academy system. There are a lot of questions and different | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
answers. We've only got a few more minutes. I want to raise one other | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
question. Can I come back very briefly on this. 30 seconds? I saw | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
you nodding and smiling when Peter said there shouldn't be any private | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
schools, is it your policy that you should be abolishing them? We should | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
be moving towards a comprehensive system. You can't abolish them. What | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
amazes me about what you said Justine is everything post-2010 that | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
you claim credit for is your what you have done immediately, | :53:14. | :53:15. | |
everything that's bad that's going on at the moment of the Government | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
is the legacy of the last Labour Government, you can't have it both | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
ways, you promised to protect per pupil programme, you have broken | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
that promise. Don't all parties say it wasn't us it was them? I mean the | :53:30. | :53:41. | |
facts are... Let's have a question. Abas I believery hammy, please? Is | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
it ever right to compensate terror suspects? This is the case of the | :53:47. | :53:55. | |
man that allegedly got ?1 million when he left Guantanamo Bay. Is it | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
ever right to compensate terror suspects? It's absolutely deplorable | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
that he should have got that money but even more deplorable that the | :54:06. | :54:07. | |
Government should have lost track of this person, he was a former | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
Guantanamo Bay detainee, how is it that we let this guy leave the | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
country and head off to fight for Jihad? | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
Douglas Carswell? I think what's truly shocking about this case is | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
that we are not more shocked. We are so used to the idea of the British | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
state being so high bound by human rights lawyers and compliance that | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
there's little room for common-sense. We need I think to | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
make certain that in cases such as soldiers being accused of wrongdoing | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
in Iraq and cases like this, we need to make absolutely certain that we | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
are not using legal aid, a million pound for someone in this case it's | :54:51. | :54:58. | |
absolutely outrageous. Peter Coates? He was detained. He was detained. | :54:59. | :55:07. | |
Unlawfully. He was detained unlawfully and he was possibly | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
tortured, I don't know. Began began bay is a pretty awful place. And | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
they put this man in, they had no evidence and they never did produce | :55:17. | :55:25. | |
evidence Guantanamo Bay. Why he was paid compensation I don't know, it | :55:26. | :55:28. | |
must have been hush money. It could have been hush money. The British | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
Government was complicit in Guantanamo Bay and so I don't know | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
all the story. On the face of it it seems terrible and Isis is an | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
absolute abomination and we all want to see the end of it, but this | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
individual, and where it went wrong, how the Security Services lost track | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
of him, that would be my big question. I suppose these things are | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
much more complicate and difficult than we think. Justine Greening? In | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
the end, it depends on whether somebody is innocent or not. As | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
Peter said, if they have been incarcerated for no reason | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
whatsoever that's one thing. If they have been incarcerated because in | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
the end it's been prove than they are a criminal, that's different. | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
When people were finally released from Guantanamo, clearly as a | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
Government, people wanted to look at what the right form of settlement | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
was for people that had been held there effectively unlawfully. I | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
don't know in the end, I don't think anybody really knows what | :56:32. | :56:33. | |
conversation this man was paid or not paid as part of that. Why don't | :56:34. | :56:46. | |
you know and shouldn't you know? There is intelligence and we should | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
respect that. There was no merit in paying him a penny because he was | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
plainly a terrorist, it was said. Do you agree? I agree with the comments | :56:56. | :57:00. | |
made earlier that people will be upset and angered that somebody was | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
given what was considered to be a huge payout, then went off and was | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
able to go abroad and commit terrorism abroad. There's some | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
unanswered questions by that. We have got to be absolutely clear that | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
some of the issues around that were people being unlawfully detained | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
without charge and potentially subject to torture. We can't do that | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
and in fact if we do do things like that, we actually do radicalise | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
people and it's counterproductive. So we've got to make sure that we | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
uphold British laws. OK. You, Sir? One brief comment. Not you, I wanted | :57:36. | :57:47. | |
the man in the second row from the back, let's hear you, please? It | :57:48. | :57:54. | |
makes me absolutely sick to my stomach that British Government | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
releases terrorists yet members of the Armed Forces and veterans are | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
hounded on a state-sponsored witch-hunt. It makes me absolutely | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
sick to my stomach. Breakfast- All right. Thank you. | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
Just before we end, Robert Moss, your question. Nobody is going to be | :58:16. | :58:30. | |
allowed answer it but let's hear it. It's a nice question. Who ate all | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
the pies? Has football lost its sense of humour. Our time is up. We | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
are going to be in Bedford next week, we have Liz Truss and the | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
guitarist from Bombay bicycle club who campaigns to involve young | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
people in politics on the panel. The weekend after that, we are in | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
Sunderland. Bedford or Sunderland, go to the website. The address is | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
there. Five Live carries on this debate on Question Time extra time, | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
but my great thanks to the panel and all of you who came to | :59:02. | :59:04. | |
Stoke-on-Trent tonight where the by-election result will actually be | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
announced in the early hours, as will Copeland. I hope you will stay | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
up for that if you are interested in that. Until next Thursday, good | :59:13. | :59:14. | |
night. A 24-year-old man | :59:15. | :59:42. | |
has been charged with murder. Huntley's definitely | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
hiding something. Only interested in one thing | :59:47. | :59:48. | |
and that's bent coppers. You want to make | :59:49. | :59:58. | |
some sort of a deal? | :59:59. | :00:01. |