Browse content similar to 26/03/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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It's Sunday morning, this is the Sunday Politics. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
The police believe the Westminster attacker Khalid Masood acted alone, | :00:47. | :00:48. | |
but do the security services have the resources and | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
We'll ask the leader of the House of Commons. | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
As Theresa May prepares to trigger Brexit, details of | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Will a so-called Henry VIII clause give the Government too much power | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
Ukip's only MP, Douglas Carswell, quits the party saying it's "job | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
done" - we'll speak to him and the party's | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
Here in the east, shock and disappointment in Clacton | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
after the local MP resigns from UKIP, and says he will be | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
And with me - as always - the best and the brightest political | :01:20. | :01:32. | |
panel in the business - Toby Young, Polly Toynbee | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting throughout the programme. | :01:35. | :01:40. | |
First, it was the most deadly terrorist attack | :01:41. | :01:42. | |
The attacker was shot dead trying to storm Parliament, | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
but not before he'd murdered four people and injured 50 - | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
one of those is still in a critical condition in hospital. | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
His target was the very heart of our democracy, | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
the Palace of Westminster, and he came within metres | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
of the Prime Minister and senior Cabinet ministers. | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
Without the quick actions of the Defence Secretary's | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
close protection detail, fortuitously in the vicinity | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
at the time, the outcome could have been even worse. | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
Janan Ganesh it is four days now, getting on. What thoughts should we | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
be having this weekend? First of all, Theresa May's Parliamentary | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
response was exemplary. In many ways, the moment she arrived as | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
prime minister and her six years as Home Secretary showed a positive | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
way. No other serving politician is as steeped in counterterror and | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
national security experience as she is and I think it showed. As to | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
whether politics is going now, it looks like the Government will put | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
more pressure on companies like Google and Facebook to monitor | :02:46. | :02:52. | |
sensor radical content that flows through their channels, and I wonder | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
whether beyond that the Government, not just our Government but around | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
the world, will start to open this question of, during a terror attack, | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
as it is unfolding, should there be restrictions on what can appear on | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
social media? I was on Twitter at the time last week, during the | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
attack, and people were posting things which may have been useful to | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
the perpetrators, not on that occasion but future occasions. | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Should there be restrictions on what and how much people can post while | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
an attack is unfolding? I think we have learned that this is like the | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
weather, it is going to happen, it is going to happen all over the | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
world and in every country and we deal with it well, we deal with it | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
stoically, perhaps we are more used to it than some. We had the IRA for | :03:40. | :03:44. | |
years, we know how to make personal risk assessments, how to know the | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
chances of being in the wrong place at the wrong time are infinitesimal, | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
so people in London didn't say, I'm not going to go to the centre of | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
London today, everything carried on just the same. Because we know that | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
the odds of it, being unlucky, are very small. Life is dangerous, this | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
is another very small risk and it is the danger of being alive. I think | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
from an Isis Islamist propaganda point of view, it showed just what a | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
poor target London and the House of Commons is, and it is hard to | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
imagine the emergency services and local people, international | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
visitors, reacting much better than they did. And the fact that our | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
Muslim mayor was able to make an appearance so quickly afterwards | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
shows, I think, that we are not city riddled with anti-Islamic prejudice. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
It couldn't really have been a better advertisement for the values | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
that is attacking. OK, thank you for that. | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
So, four days after the attack, what more do we know | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
The police have made 11 arrests, but only one remains | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
Here's Adam with the latest on the investigation. | :04:55. | :04:59. | |
According to a police timeline, that's how long it took | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
Khalid Masood to drive through a crowd on Westminster | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
to crash his car into Parliament's perimeter... | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
to fatally stab PC Keith Palmer, before being shot by a bodyguard | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
The public are leaving tributes to the dead at Westminster. | :05:18. | :05:28. | |
The family of PC Palmer released a statement saying: | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
"We would like to express our gratitude to the people | :05:34. | :05:35. | |
who were with Keith in his last moments and who were | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
There was nothing more you could have done, | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
you did your best and we are just grateful he was not alone." | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
Investigators say Masood's motive may have gone to the grave with him. | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
Officers think he acted alone, despite reports he spent a WhatsApp | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
The Home Secretary now has such encrypted messaging | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
There should be no place for terrorists to hide. | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
We need to make sure that organisations like WhatsApp, | :06:04. | :06:05. | |
and there are plenty of others like that, don't provide a secret | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
place for terrorists to communicate with each other. | :06:09. | :06:11. | |
It used to be that people would steam open envelopes or just | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
listen in on phones when they wanted to find out what people were doing, | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
legally, through warrantry, but in this situation | :06:25. | :06:26. | |
we need to make sure that our intelligence services | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
have the ability to get into situations like encrypted | :06:29. | :06:30. | |
She will ask the tech industry to suggest solutions | :06:31. | :06:34. | |
at a meeting this week, although she didn't rule out | :06:35. | :06:36. | |
But for those caught up in the attack, perhaps it will be | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
..not the policy implications that will echo the loudest. | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
We're joined now from the Hague by the Director of Europol, | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
the European Police Agency, Rob Wainwright. | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
What role has Europol played in the aftermath of Wednesday's attacks? I | :06:57. | :07:04. | |
can tell you we are actively supporting the investigation, | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
because it is a live case I cannot of course go into the details, but | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
to give you some context, Andrew, this is one of about 80 | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
counterterrorist cases we have been supporting across Europe this year, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
using a platform to shed thousands of intelligence messages between the | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
very large counterterrorist community in Europe, and also | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
tracking flows of terrorist finance, illegal firearms, and monitoring | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
this terrible propaganda online as well. All of that is being made | :07:32. | :07:39. | |
available now to the Metropolitan Police in London for this case. Do | :07:40. | :07:41. | |
we know if there is any European link to those who may have inspired | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
or directed Khalid Massoud? That is an active part of the inquiry being | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
led by Metropolitan Police and it is not for me to comment or speculate | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
on that. There are links of course in terms of the profile of the | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
attacker and the way in which he launched these terrible events in | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
Westminster, and those that we've seen, for example, in the Berlin | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
Christmas market last year and the attack in Nice in the summer of last | :08:08. | :08:12. | |
year, clear similarities between the fact that the attackers involved | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
have criminal background, somewhat dislocated from society, each of | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
them using a hired or stolen vehicle to deliberately aim at pedestrians | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
in a crowded place and using a secondary weapon, whether it is a | :08:28. | :08:31. | |
gun or a knife. So we are seeing a trend, I think, of the kind of | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
attacks across Europe in the last couple of years and some of that at | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
least was played out unfortunately in Westminster this week as well. | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
Mass and was known to the emergency services, so were many of those | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
involved in the Brussels, Paris and Berlin attacks, so something is | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
going wrong here, we are not completely across this, are we? | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
Actually most attacks are being stopped. This was I think at least | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the 14th terrorist plot or attempted attack in Britain since 2013 and the | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
only one that has got through, and that fits a picture of what we see | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
in France last year, 17 attempted attacks that were stopped, for | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
example. Unfortunately some of them get through. But people on the | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
security services' Radar getting through, in Westminster, Brussels, | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
Paris and Berlin. There is clearly something we are not doing that | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
could stop that. Again, if you look at what happened in Berlin and at | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
least the first indications from what police are saying in London, | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
these are people that haven't really appeared on Baha'i target list of | :09:39. | :09:43. | |
the authorities, they are on the edge at best of radicalised | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
community -- on the high target list. When you are dealing with a | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
dispersed community of thousands of radicalised, Senate radicalised | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
individuals, it is very difficult to monitor them 24/7, very difficult | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
when these people, almost out of the blue and carry out the attacks that | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
they did. I think you have to find a sense of perspective here around the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
work and the pressures of the work and the difficult target choices | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
that police and security authorities have to make around Europe. The Home | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
Secretary here in London said this morning it is time to tackle apps | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
like WhatsApp, which we believe Massoud was using, because they | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
encrypt from end to end and it is difficult for the security services | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
to know what is happening there. What do you say, are you up for | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
that? Across the hundreds of cases we have supported in recent years | :10:37. | :10:40. | |
there is no doubt that encryption, encrypted communications are | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
becoming more and more prominent in the way terrorists communicate, more | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
and more of a problem, therefore, a real challenge for investigators, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
and that the heart of this is a stark inconsistency between the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
ability of the police to lawfully intercept telephone calls, but not | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
when those messages are exchanged via a social media messaging board, | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
for example, and that is an inconsistency in society and we have | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
to find a solution through appropriate legislation perhaps of | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
these technologies and law enforcement agencies working in a | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
more constructive way. So you back that? I agree that there is | :11:15. | :11:22. | |
certainly a problem, absolutely. We know there was a problem, I'm trying | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
to find out if you agree with the Home Secretary's solution? I agree | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
certainly with her calls for changes to be made. What the legislative | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
solution for that is of course for her and other lawmakers to decide | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
but from my point of view, yes, I would agree something has to be done | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
to make sure we can apply more consistent interception of | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
communication in all parts of the way in which terrorists invade our | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
lives. Rob Wainwright of Europol, thank you very much. | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
Here with me in the studio now is the Leader of the House | :11:58. | :12:00. | |
What did last week's attack tell us about the security of the Palace of | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
Westminster? It told us that we are looked after by some very | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
courageous, very professional police officers. There is clearly going to | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
be a lessons learned with you, as you would expect after any incident | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
of this kind. That will look very carefully at what worked well but | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
also whether there are changes that need to be made, that is already | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
under way. And that is being run by professionals, by the police and | :12:35. | :12:40. | |
security director at Parliament... Palace authorities, we will get | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
reports from the professionals, particularly our own Parliamentary | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
security director, and just as security matters in parliament are | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
kept under constant review, if there are changes that need to be made as | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
a result, then they will need to be made. Let's look at some of the | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
issues it has thrown up, as we get some distance from these appalling | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
events when our first reaction was always the people who lose their | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
lives and suffer, and then we start to become a bit more analytical. Is | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
it true that the authorities removed armed guards from Cowbridge gate, | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
where the attacker made his entry, because they looked to threatening | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
for tourists? -- carriage gate. No, the idea that a protest from MPs led | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
to operational changes simply not the case. What happened in the last | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
couple of years is that the security arrangements in new Palace Yard have | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
actually been strengthened, but I don't think your view was would | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
expect me to go into a detailed commentary upon operational security | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
matters. Why were the armed guards removed? There are armed guards at | :13:50. | :13:55. | |
all times in the Palace of Westminster, it is a matter for the | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
security authorities and in particular for the police and direct | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
command of those officers to decide how they are best deployed. Is it | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
because, as some from Scotland Yard sources have reported to the papers | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
this morning, was it done because of staffing shortages? I'm in no | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
position to comment on the details of the operation but my | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
understanding is that the number of people available is what the police | :14:23. | :14:28. | |
and the security authorities working together have decided to deploy and | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
that they think was commensurate with the threat that we faced. Is it | :14:33. | :14:37. | |
not of concern that as the incident unfolded the gates were left | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
unguarded by armed and unarmed, they were just unguarded, so much so | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
that, as it was going on, a career with a parcel on a moped at was able | :14:48. | :14:54. | |
to drive through? -- up career. I think we will need to examine that | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
case as part of looking into any lessons learned, but what I don't | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
yet know, because the police are still interviewing everybody | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
involved, witnesses and police officers involved, was exactly who | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
was standing where in the vicinity of the murder at a particular time. | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
We have seen pictures, the gates were unguarded as people were | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
concentrating on what was happening to the police man and to the | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
attacker, but the delivery man was able to come through the gates with | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
a parcel?! You have seen a particular camera angle, I think it | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
is important before we rush to judgment, and we shouldn't be | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
pointing fingers, we need... We are trying to get to the bottom of it. | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
To get to the bottom of it means we have to look at what all the | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
witnesses and all the police officers involved say about what | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
happened, and then there needs to be a decision taken about what if any | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
changes need to be made in light of that. | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
We know the attacker was stopped in his tracks by the Defence | :16:02. | :16:10. | |
Secretary's bodyguard, where was the armed roving unit that had replaced | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
the armed guard at the gate? I cannot comment on operation details | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
but my understanding is there were other armed officers who would have | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
been able to prevent the attacker from getting to the chamber, as has | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
been alleged it would be possible for him to do. Were you aware that a | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
so-called table top simulation, carried out by Scotland Yard and the | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
Parliamentary authorities, ended with four terrorists in this | :16:39. | :16:48. | |
simulation able to storm parliament and killed dozens of MPs? No, that | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
is the first time that has been mentioned to me. You are the leader | :16:53. | :17:01. | |
of the house. These matters are dealt with by security professionals | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
who are involved, they are advised by a security committee, chaired by | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the Deputy Speaker, but we do not debate operational details in | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
public. I'm not asking for a debate, I raise this because it's been | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
reported because it's quite clear that after this simulation, it | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
raised serious questions about the security of the palace. Actions | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
should have followed. What I've said to you is that these matters are | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
kept under constant review and that there are always changes made both | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
in the deployment of individual officers and security guards of the | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
palace staff and other plans to strengthen the hard security of the | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
perimeter. If you look back at Hansard December last year, they was | :17:53. | :17:59. | |
a plan already been brought forward to strengthen the security at | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
carriage Gates, looking at questions of access. Will there be armed | :18:04. | :18:16. | |
guards now? You need to look not just at armed guards, you need to | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
look at the entirety of the security engagements including fencing. | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
There's lots about the security we don't need to know and shouldn't | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
know, but whether or not there are armed guards is something we will | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
find out quite soon and I'm asking you if you think there should be. If | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
you think the judgment is by our security experts that there need to | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
be more armed guards in certain places, then they will be deployed | :18:43. | :18:48. | |
accordingly, but I think before we rush to make conclusions about | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
lessons to be learned from Wednesday's appalling attack, it is | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
important the police are allowed to get on with completing the interview | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
of witnesses and their own officers, and then that there is considered | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
view taken about what changes might need to be made and then they will | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
be implemented. Let me come onto the triggering of Article 50 that begins | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
our negotiations to exit the European Union. It will happen on | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
Wednesday. John Claude Juncker told Germany's most popular newspaper | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
that he wants to make an example of the UK to make everyone realise it's | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
not worth leaving the EU. What do you make of that? I think all sorts | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
of things are said in advance of negotiations beginning. Clearly the | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
commission will want to ensure the EU 27 holds together. As the Prime | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
Minister has said, that is a British national interest as well. She has | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
been very clear... What do you make of President Juncker's remark? It | :19:53. | :19:56. | |
doesn't surprise me ahead of negotiations but I think if rational | :19:57. | :20:04. | |
mutual interest is to the fore that it's perfectly possible for an | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
agreement to be negotiated between the UK and our 27 friends and allies | :20:09. | :20:14. | |
that addresses all of the issues from trade to security, police | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
cooperation, foreign policy co-operation, works for all | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
countries. The EU wants to agree a substantial divorce bill before it | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
will even discuss any future UK EU relations, what do you make of that? | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
Article 50 says the terms of exit need to be negotiated in the context | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
of the kind of future relationship that's going to exist between the | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
departing country and the remaining member states. It seems it is simply | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
not possible to separate those two. Clearly there will need to be a | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
discussion about joint assets and join liabilities but I think if we | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
all keep to the fore the fact we will continue to be neighbours, we | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
will continue to be essential allies and trading partners, then it is | :21:02. | :21:03. | |
possible to come to a deal that works for all size. The | :21:04. | :21:20. | |
question is do you agree the divorce bill first and then look at the | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
subsequent relations we will have or do you do them both in parallel? | :21:24. | :21:26. | |
Article 50 itself says they have to run together. Do you think they have | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
to be done together or sequentially? I think it is impossible to separate | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
the two but we will get into negotiations very soon and then once | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
David Davis is sitting down with Michel Barnier and others and the | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
national governments become involved too, then I hope we can make steady | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
progress. An early deal about each other's citizens would be a good | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
piece of low hanging fruit. Is the Government willing to pay a | :21:56. | :22:03. | |
substantial divorce bill? The Prime Minister has said we don't rule out | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
some kind of continuing payments, for example there may be EU | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
programmes in the future in which we want to continue to participate. 50 | :22:14. | :22:20. | |
billion? We don't envisage long-term payments of vast sums of money. So | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
50 billion isn't even the Government ballpark? You are tempting me to get | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
into the detail of negotiation, that is something that will be starting | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
very soon and let's leave it to the negotiations. During the referendum | :22:37. | :22:43. | |
there was no talk from the Leave side about any question of | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
separation bill, now the talk is of 50 billion and I'm trying to find | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
out if the British government thinks that of amount is on your radar. The | :22:52. | :23:02. | |
Government is addressing the situation in which we now are, which | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
is that we have a democratic obligation to implement the decision | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
of the people in the referendum last year, and that we need to do that in | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
a way that maximises the opportunity, the future prosperity | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
and security of everybody in the UK. Let me try one more thing on the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
Great Repeal Bill, the white Paper will be published I think on | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
Thursday, is that right? We haven't announced an exact date but you will | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
see the white Paper very soon. Let's say it is Thursday, it will enshrine | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
thousands of EU laws into UK law, it will use what's called Henry VIII | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
powers, who of course was a dictator. Is this an attempt to | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
avoid proper Parliamentary scrutiny? No, we are repealing the Communities | :23:52. | :23:58. | |
Act 1972, then put existing EU legal obligations on the UK statutory | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
footing, so business know where they stand. Then, because a lot of those | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
EU regulations will for example refer to the commission or another | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
regulator, you need to substitute a UK authority in place so we need to | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
have a power under secondary legislation to tweak the European | :24:22. | :24:32. | |
regulators so it is coherent. This is weather Henry VIII powers come | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
in. It is secondary legislation and the scope, the definition of those | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
powers and when they can be used in what circumstances is something the | :24:43. | :24:45. | |
parliament will have to approve in voting through the bill itself. And | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
if it is as innocuous as you say, will you accept the proposal of the | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
Lords for an enhanced scrutiny process on the secondary | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
legislation? Neither the relevant committee of the House of Lords, the | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
constitution committee, nor anyone else has seen the text of the bill | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
and I think when it comes out, I hope that those members of the House | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
of Lords will find that reassuring, but as I say the definition of those | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
powers are something the parliament itself will take the final decision. | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
David Lidington, thank you for being with us. | :25:26. | :25:26. | |
So, Ukip has lost its only MP - Douglas Carswell. | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
He defected to Ukip from the Conservative Party | :25:30. | :25:31. | |
almost three years ago, but yesterday announced | :25:32. | :25:32. | |
that he was quitting to sit as an independent. | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
His surprise defection came in August 2014 saying, | :25:36. | :25:36. | |
"Only Ukip can shake up that cosy little clique called Westminster". | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
But his bromance with Nigel Farage turned sour when Mr Carswell | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
criticised the so-called "shock and awful" strategy as | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
Then, during the EU referendum campaign last year, Nigel Farage | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
was part of the unofficial Leave.EU campaign, whereas Douglas Carswell | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
opted to support the official Vote Leave campaign. | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
Just last month, former Ukip leader Nigel Farage | :26:00. | :26:01. | |
accused Douglas Carswell of thwarting his chances | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
of being awarded a knighthood, writing that, | :26:04. | :26:05. | |
Announcing his resignation on his website yesterday, | :26:06. | :26:13. | |
Mr Carswell said, "I desperately wanted us to leave the EU. | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
Now we can be certain that that is going to happen, I have | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
decided that I will be leaving Ukip." | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
When Mr Carswell left the Conservative Party in 2014 | :26:22. | :26:23. | |
he resigned as an MP, triggering a by-election. | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
"I must seek permission from my boss," he said referring | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
This time, though, Mr Carswell has said there will be no by-election. | :26:30. | :26:38. | |
We're joined now from Salford by Ukip leader, Paul Nuttall. | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
Welcome back to the programme. Are you happy to see the back of your | :26:45. | :26:54. | |
only MP? Well, do you know, I'm always sad when people leave Ukip at | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
a grass roots level or Parliamentary level, but I'm sad but I'm not | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
surprised by this. There has been adrift by Douglas and Ukip over the | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
past couple of years, his relationship with Nigel Farage | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
certainly hasn't helped, and it is a hangover from the former regime | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
which I inherited. I try to bring the party together, I thought I had | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
done that for a few months but it seems now as if I was only papering | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
over the cracks. Douglas has gone and I think we will move on and be a | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
more unified party as a result. Did Douglas Carswell jump because he | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
expected to be pushed out your national executive committee | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
tomorrow? He came before the National executive committee to | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
answer questions regarding issues that have come to the fore over the | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
last couple of months. There was the knighthood issue, the issue | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
surrounding the Thanet election and his comments in a book which came | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
out regarding Brexit. So was he under suspicion? He was coming to | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
answer these questions and they would have been difficult. So he did | :28:03. | :28:10. | |
jump in your view? No, I'm not saying he would have been pushed out | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
of the party but he would have faced difficult questions. What is clear | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
is that a fissure had developed and I'm not surprised by him leaving the | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
party. You have also lost Diane James, Stephen Wolf, Arron Banks, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
you failed to win the Stoke by election, Mr Carswell is now a | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
pundit on US television, Ukip now stands for the UK irrelevance party, | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
doesn't it? Paul's hard us yesterday on 12%, membership continues to | :28:46. | :29:01. | |
rise. -- the polls had us on 12%. 4 million people voted for Ukip. Over | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
the summer exciting things will be happening in the party, we will | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
rewrite the constitution, restructure the party, it will have | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
a new feel to it and we will be launching pretty much the post | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
Brexit Ukip. Arron Banks, who used to pay quite a lot of your bills, he | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
said the current leadership, that would be you, couldn't knock the | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
skin off a rice pudding, another way of saying you are relevant, isn't | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
it? I don't think that's fair. I've only been in the job since November | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
the 28th, we have taken steps to restructure the party already, the | :29:39. | :29:41. | |
party is on a sound financial footing, we won't have a problem | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
money wise going forward. It is a party which can really unified, look | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
forward to the post Brexit Iraq, tomorrow we are launching our Brexit | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
test for the Prime Minister. If it wasn't for Ukip there wouldn't have | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
been a referendum and we wouldn't have Brexit. Every time you say you | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
will unified, someone else leaves. Is Arron Banks still a member? No, | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
not at this moment in time. He has been a generous donor in the past, | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
he's done a great job of ensuring we get Brexit and I'm thankful for that | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
but he isn't a member. He has just submitted an invoice of ?2000 for | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
the use of call centres, will you pay that? No. That should be | :30:26. | :30:35. | |
interesting to watch. In the aftermath of the Westminster | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
attack, Nigel Farage told Fox News that it vindicates Donald Trump's | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
extreme vetting of migrants. Since the attacker was born in Kent, like | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
Nigel Farage, can you explain the relevance of the remark? I | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
personally haven't supported Donald Trump's position on this, but what I | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
will say, this is what Nigel has said as well, we have a problem | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
within the Muslim community, it is a small number of people who hate the | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
way we live... Can you explain the relevance of Mr Farage's remark? Mr | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
Farage also made the point about multiculturalism being the | :31:12. | :31:28. | |
problem as well and he is correct on that because we cannot have separate | :31:29. | :31:30. | |
communities living separate lives and never integrating. How would | :31:31. | :31:32. | |
extreme vetting of migrants help you track down a man who was born in | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
Kent? In this case it wouldn't. Maybe in other cases it would. But, | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
as I say, I'm not a supporter of Donald Trump's position on extreme | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
vetting, never have been, so I'm the wrong person to ask the question | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
too, Andrew. That has probably become clear in my efforts to get | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
you to answer it. Let me as too, should there be a by-election in | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
Clacton now? Douglas has called by-elections in the past when he has | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
left a political party, I know certain people in Ukip are keen to | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
go down this line, Douglas is always keen on recall and if 20% of people | :32:05. | :32:06. | |
in his constituency want a by-election then maybe we should | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
have won. Ukip will be opening nominations for Clacton very soon. | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
Hold on with us, Mr Nuttall, I have Douglas Carswell here in the studio. | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
Why not call a by-election? I'm not switching parties. You are, you are | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
becoming independent. There is a difference, I've not submitted | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
myself to the whip up a new party, if I was, I would be obliged to | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
trigger a by-election. If every time an MP in the House of Commons | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
resigned the whip or lost the whip, far from actually strengthening the | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
democracy against the party bosses, that would give those who ran | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
parties and enormous power, so I'm being absolutely consistent here, | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
I'm not joining a party. It is a change of status and Nigel Farage | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
has just said he will write to every constituent in Clacton and he wants | :33:00. | :33:08. | |
to try and get 20% of constituents to older by-election. We are going | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
to testing, he says, write to every house in Clacton, find out if his | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
constituents want a by-election, if 20% do we will find out if Mr | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
Carswell is honourable. I'm sure they will be delighted to hear from | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
Nigel. There have been several by-elections when Nigel has had the | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
opportunity to contact the electorate we did -- which did not | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
always go to plan. If you got 20%, would you? Yesterday I sent an | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
e-mail to 20,000 constituents, I have had a lot of responses back, | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
overwhelmingly supported. Recently you said you were 100% Ukip, now you | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
are 0%. What happened? I saw Theresa May triggering article 50, we won, | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
Andrew. You knew a few months ago she was going to do that. On June | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
the 24th I had serious thought about making the move but I wanted to be | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
absolutely certain that Article 50 would be triggered and I think it is | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
right. This is why ultimately Ukip exists, to get us out of the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
European Union. We should be cheerful instead of attacking one | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
another, this is our moment, we made it happen. Did you try to sideline | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
the former Ukip leader during the referendum campaign? Not at all, I | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
have been open about this, the idea I have been involved in subterfuge. | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
You try to sideline him openly rather than by subterfuge? I made | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
the point we needed to be open, broad and progressive to win. I made | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
it clear in my acceptance speech in Clacton and when I said that Vote | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
Leave should get designation that the only way Euroscepticism would | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
win was by being more than just angry natives. What do you make of | :34:49. | :34:54. | |
that? I am over the moon that we have achieved Brexit, unlike Douglas | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
I rarely have that much confidence in Theresa May because history | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
proves that she is good at talking the talk but in walking the walk | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
often fails, and I'm disappointed because I wanted Douglas to be part | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
of the post Brexit Ukip where we move forward with a raft of domestic | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
policies and go on to take seat at Westminster. Do you think you try to | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
sideline Mr Farage during the referendum campaign? Vote Leave | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
certainly didn't want Nigel Farage front of house, we know that. They | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
freely admit that, they admitted it on media over the past year. Nigel | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
still was front of house because he is Nigel Farage and if it wasn't for | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
Nigel, as I said earlier, we wouldn't have at the referendum and | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
we wouldn't have achieved Brexit because Nigel Farage appeals, like | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
Ukip to a certain section of the population. If our primary motive is | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
to get us out of the European Union, why are we having this row, why | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
can't we just celebrate what is happening on Wednesday? We can, but | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
you are far more confident that Theresa May will deliver on this | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
than I am. Ukip may have been a single issue pressure group ten | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
years ago, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you joined in | :36:11. | :36:14. | |
2014, it wasn't a single issue pressure group that you stood for in | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
2015 at the general election, and I'm disappointed that you have left | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
us when we are moving onto an exciting era. What specifically | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
gives you a lack of confidence in Mrs May's ability deliver? Her | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
record as Home Secretary, she said she would deal with radical Islam, | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
nothing happened, she said she would get immigration down to the tens of | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
thousands, last year in her last year as Home Secretary as city the | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
size of Newcastle came to this country, that is not tens of | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
thousands. I think we need to take yes for an answer eventually. The | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
problem with some Eurosceptics is they never accept they have won the | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
argument. We have one, Theresa May is going to do what we have wanted | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
her to do, let's be happy, let's celebrate that. But let's wait until | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
she starts bartering things away, until she betrays our fishermen, | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
just as other Conservative prime ministers have done in the past. | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
Let's wait until we end up still paying some sort of membership fee | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
into the European Union or a large divorce bill. That is not what | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
people voted for on June the 23rd and if you want to align yourself | :37:20. | :37:28. | |
with that, you are clearly not a Ukipper in my opinion. So for Ukip | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
to have relevance, it has to go wrong? I'm confident politics will | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
come back to our terms but -- our turf but there will be a post Brexit | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Ukip that will stand for veterans, book slashing the foreign aid bill | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
and becoming the party of law and order. Finally, to you, Douglas | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
Carswell, you say you have confidence in Mrs May to deliver in | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
the way that Paul Nuttall doesn't. You backed her, you were | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
Conservative, you believe that Brexit will be delivered under a | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
Conservative Government. Why would you not bite the 2020 election as a | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
Conservative? I feel comfortable being independent. If you join a | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
party you have to agree to a bunch of stuff I would not want to agree | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
with. I am comfortable being independent. So you will go into | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
2020 as an independent? If you look at the raising of funds, what Vote | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
Leave did as a pop-up party... We only have five seconds, will you | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
fight as an independent in the next general election? Let's wait and | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
I'm Stewart White. much. | :38:38. | :38:55. | |
Yesterday the MP for Clacton, Douglas Carswell, delivered | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
He resigned from UKIP, saying "the job's done". | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
But there will not be a by-election and he intends | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
In 2005 Douglas Carswell became the MP for Harwich, beating Labour's | :39:06. | :39:23. | |
Ivan Henderson. He came to prominence for years later leading | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
the effort that ousted the speaker Michael Martin in the wake of the | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
MPs expenses scandal. All 650 MPs need to be made personally | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
accountable for how they spent every pound of public money. Is | :39:37. | :39:43. | |
constituency of Clacton had baby changes in 2010 where he won for the | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
Tories and then came the shock defection to Ukip in 2014. I am | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
leaving the Conservative Party has joining Ukip. You became the first | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
and only Ukip MP in a by-election, and only Ukip MP in a by-election, | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
with the big majority. That was cut in the general election of 2015. His | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
relationship with Nigel Farage has been difficult, particularly when he | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
decided to join a different campaign group to the Ukip leader during the | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
referendum. He has decided to resign from Ukip saying he trusts trees are | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
made to deliver Brexit. He will now sit as an independent MP. | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
Here with me are UKIP MEP Stuart Agnew and Professor Paul Whiteley | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
Douglas Carswell said it is an amicable split, but is it? Ukip | :40:25. | :40:37. | |
councillors in Clacton city are glad to see him go. Some voters in the | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
area who backed him as the MP feel let down. | :40:44. | :40:45. | |
Once again the people of Clacton find themselves at the centre of a | :40:46. | :40:49. | |
For your MP to leave the party has been elected to | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
represent once might be considered understandable what to do it twice | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
It is down to him at the end of the day, if he | :40:56. | :41:05. | |
wants to do that we can't really do a lot about it, can we? | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
Is that passion and that drive for your party isn't there any more | :41:09. | :41:18. | |
then I think he has made the right decision to step away. | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
Do you think you could still has a role? | :41:23. | :41:24. | |
Yes I do, yes, I think they can speed up | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
the process and get us what we need from the EU before we leave. | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
Isn't it bad thing if the one MP leaves? | :41:32. | :41:33. | |
When he joined Ukip in 2014 Douglas Carswell | :41:34. | :41:41. | |
and the man he called his | :41:42. | :41:42. | |
new best friend Nigel were mobbed by Ukip supporters. | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
But since then relations between the MP and some in | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
How else do you explain this reaction? | :41:51. | :41:57. | |
I personally feel a great sense of cleansing, I think we have | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
had a deep and gaping wound ever since Douglas joined the party. | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
Douglas for all intents and purposes is Douglas, | :42:07. | :42:08. | |
and he has really been quite independent for some time now, | :42:09. | :42:11. | |
you may notice if you go to his office you will not see the word | :42:12. | :42:14. | |
That has been the case for many months. | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
So I don't think the people of Clacton | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
will see a great deal of change from that point of view. | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
I think some will feel it's truly disappointed | :42:26. | :42:27. | |
Mr Carswell was in the front row to applaud Paul Nuttall | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
when he took over as leader last year. | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
Despite continued run-ins with Nigel Farage and some of his | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
supporters, the Clacton MP told me only two weeks ago that he was very | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
happy inside Ukip and felt that the party | :42:43. | :42:44. | |
was carving out a new role for | :42:45. | :42:46. | |
Personally I am devastated, I ran Douglas's campaign when he | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
first was elected as the first Ukip MP so I am personally very | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
But listening to reading what our party | :42:55. | :43:01. | |
leader has been out today I believe there were issues that were never | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
Conservative Party members in Clacton cant help | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
smirking, the man who stood against Mr Carswell in the last two | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
elections said this is just the latest sign that Ukip is falling | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
As an innocent bystander it has been great entertainment, Ukip | :43:18. | :43:25. | |
locally, some of them have moved back to us in the District Council, | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
as you might know we have had some of back | :43:29. | :43:31. | |
in the last year, the | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
slitting and subdividing and subdividing and who knows? | :43:35. | :43:35. | |
It seems to be imploding but it might get | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
some cohesion somewhere but I can see that at the moment. | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
The travel for Ukip is that this is happening | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
all over the region, the party's leader Norfolk County Council Toby | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
Cook resigned this week in a row over candidate selection. | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
Its leader in Suffolk stormed out a few months | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
ago and nearly every Ukip county council | :43:59. | :44:00. | |
in Essex has decided not to | :44:01. | :44:01. | |
stand again in this year 's elections. | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
Ukip's problems seem to be down to three things, a lack of | :44:07. | :44:09. | |
strong leadership, no one seems to be | :44:10. | :44:10. | |
banging head together at the | :44:11. | :44:12. | |
moment and then there is political inexperience. | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
Many councillors have found local government hard work and | :44:17. | :44:18. | |
have become disillusioned at how long it takes to get things done. | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
And then there is the whole question about Ukip's future, post-referendum | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
Clacton once again finds itself back in the | :44:26. | :44:28. | |
I think he has probably thought about this very | :44:29. | :44:37. | |
careful about what he has done his he has thought about it | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
from his own gains and perspective that he had | :44:41. | :44:42. | |
not thought about the people he is representing and we now need a | :44:43. | :44:45. | |
member of Parliament that is actually going to put | :44:46. | :44:47. | |
As we can see Douglas Carswell is waiting to speak to us. That last | :44:48. | :45:02. | |
point, you are thinking only of Douglas Carswell and not of the | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
people of Clacton. I don't think anyone can accuse me of acting on | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
self-interest, I paid my own position in the House of Commons at | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
some risk by during a party that had never won a seat in order to try and | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
make sure we got a referendum. I have been consistent and the one | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
thing I have always wanted to do is get it out of the EU. That process | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
starts on Wednesday and I feel it is right for me to say aye will be | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
leaving Ukip. I do understand that are good people in Ukip, that are | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
good people who made the switch to Ukip, some of them likely will go | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
back to other parties, some don't. You have said to me a number of | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
times over the years when you have the by-election when you left the | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
Conservatives that it was the right thing to do. Why is not the right | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
thing to do, to have a by-election now? I am not going from one party | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
to another, I am not saying I will submit myself to the width of a new | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
party. If I was to make that transition them quite likely I would | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
need the permission of the electorate but in a sense I have | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
seen I don't have a whip, or other I have 70,000 of them and the occult | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
directly to them and if I was directly to them and if I was | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
joining the Conservative Party any other party quite like that I would | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
need to call a by-election. I take seriously the idea of accountability | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
to the voter. I was after the first member of Parliament in a generation | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
to insist on submitting myself to a by-election but I am not making the | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
jump from one party to another. I have seen that I am not subject to | :46:35. | :46:40. | |
any web at all. With respect that is semantics, you are giving up the | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
party you are elected to represent. It is profoundly important because | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
if you move to a world in which any MP who either loses resigned the | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
whip has to face a by-election then far from isolated eggs and the | :46:53. | :46:58. | |
voters against the party establishment you strengthen party | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
bosses against everyone else. It is a profound and fundamental point. It | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
is also something I have given a great deal of thought too over the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
years and have been rigidly consistent on. Nigel Farage says you | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
jumped before you were pushed and you were never a Ukip sort that IQ | :47:13. | :47:18. | |
are never Ukip and use to undermine them. We have something in the piece | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
from Andrew Sinclair, a cleansing, this will be, said one of your cal | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
-- councillors. And Davies a wonderful council and woman is | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
obviously disappointed. She has her views and I have enormous respect | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
for her. I will not say anything uncharitable or in kind. What I | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
would say is that at a national level there are some in Ukip are | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
criticising me and attacking me when I said I wasn't going to leave and | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
now that I am leaving the attacking. Maybe one or two people actually | :47:49. | :47:50. | |
discovered if the forwarding my seat. Do you really think you can | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
represent the people of Clacton best as an independent when actually they | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
voted for you as a Ukip? I think I can do a better job. Two reasons, | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
one is that I am no longer encumbered by the pretence that I | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
must represent 4 million people in the House of Commons, I can focus on | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
what I am there to do which is make sure we keep over the minor injuries | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
unit of Clacton hospital and focus on local issues which are the | :48:19. | :48:21. | |
bread-and-butter of politics. The second thing is that I set out | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
yesterday before I made the announcement and e-mail to about | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
20,000 constituents. Mike or vote if you like and I have been overwhelmed | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
by the positive response with the exceptionally tiny handful, everyone | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
has come back and so far said why didn't you do this sooner? Are you | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
frightened of a by-election? I am not frightened at all, I rather | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
enjoy by-elections. I called one and I think I am right in saying it is | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
the largest 20 any election in British nautical history but I am | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
not during another party to do not need the permission of the voters to | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
submit to the whip of the authority of another party. I am sacking all | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
of my obligations to political parties and is on submitting myself | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
directly to 70,000 voters. Your share of the vote went down | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
dramatically in the general election from the by-election. A mathematical | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
fact. I expect my share of the vote now that I am not part of Ukip | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
Meikle up but we will find out soon enough. 2020 is not that far away. I | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
expect they may be an election before then. The Conservatives seem | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
to be overjoyed that you are leaving Ukip, I know you have just avoided | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
the question on national television. Given us a straight answer here. | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
Would you like to be the next Conservative candidate for Clacton? | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
It is not my choice, it is for local Conservative Party members to make | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
if I was to apply for the job but you know right now I am not inclined | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
to do so. We have three years on a couple of years at least to run and | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
what I want to do is support a Brexit government. Theresa May is, | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
if I may say, is doing a fantastic job. We have pre-Minister, we have | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
come in and Blair and Mandelson Osborne who were the same, we now | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
have some who is fundamentally different and on the side of the | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
country and I want to see how things progress. You're seeing you have a | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
lot in common with the Tories, you voted with the most of the time in | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
Parliament. If I may say aye think that the leadership of the Tory | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
party has embraced the Vote Leave agenda has quite a lot in common | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
with those of us who have been campaigning to leave the EU. I am | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
delighted that ministers who one year ago said that we had to leave | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
and every voted to leave it would be the end of the world are now so | :50:50. | :50:52. | |
successfully and passionately negotiating her withdrawal from the | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
EU. I am not going to remind them that they changed their mind, I will | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
quietly support them and make sure that we make good on a promise to | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
take back control of our borders, our democracy, I don't care what | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
colour of rosette the ministers where riders want to make sure | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
happens. You're the leader of your own party if you're independent, | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
someone once said of you that you could not be the leader of a party | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
because she would start a rebellion. If you live in the past couple of | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
years that is probably some substance in that accusation. In | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
politics you fundamentally must remember who your boss is. The | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
voter. And I no longer have a party to get between me and representing | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
what I think is an -- is in their interest. I can focus on keeping | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
open the minor injuries unit at Clacton hospital and make sure our | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
bill does not take away our ticketing machines. These are the | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
things that I get really worked up about. We can slightly move away | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
from the macro issues and I can focus under edited unreserved on | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
being a constituency MP. What do you say to those people we met in the | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
street who said they felt let down by you? That are good people who | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
obviously are going to think that I'm going to say that, and I respect | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
that and I understand that but you are always going to be able to | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
find... Had been treated this way, if I was talking to you now about | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
triggering a by-election having just triggered one, you may find one or | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
two people in Clacton perhaps those same people who might say that | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
actually it was unnecessary by-election and unnecessary expense | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
for the public purse. One or two people who are always going to be | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
slightly critical of you will be critical to much whatever you do. | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
Thank you for joining us. Lets Doctor guessed about that. | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
Stuart Agnew your reaction. He has a right to leave our party but we did | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
put a considerable notably source to get him elected under our colours | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
two years ago and I feel there should be a by-election. His | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
constituents, his bosses should be consulted and if they return him as | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
an independent well and good but if they vote for some body else when | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
that is the way it should go. Looking at what he has done, it | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
seems to be history has repeated itself a little bit for me. I | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
remember Kilroy silk, how pleased remember Kilroy silk, how pleased | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
they were when he joined the party and it was a relief when he went. I | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
was delighted when Douglas did what he did two years ago or whenever it | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
was but one can't deny the fact there has been a steady drift away. | :53:25. | :53:30. | |
There is a steady drift away from your party isn't there? Councillors. | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
Why is that? Because there is this feeling of Orwell we are going to | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
get this Article 50 and the job is done but actually it isn't done, | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
good station means giving ground in the first ground they will give is | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
the fishing ground. That is obvious now. There will be other grounds | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
given and it is up to us to let the public know about this, that they | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
are being let down. After all to reason me was a remain conservative | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
who sat on the fence, she has always talked big in the past and is | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
talking big now. It is only now that we will see if this will result in | :54:08. | :54:09. | |
walking. Do you agree with that? Is walking. Do you agree with that? Is | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
that your assessment? Ukip has gone through a perfect storm in the last | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
period since the referendum. It has a winners curse if I can put it that | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
way. Actually winning the issue that everybody identifies with the party | :54:27. | :54:31. | |
and once that has happened people naturally ask the question, what is | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
it for? And it is going through that problem. Secondly it has lost a | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
charismatic leader in the form of Nigel Farage. He's what they call a | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
Marmite politician, somebody people really like or they really don't | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
like. But Paul Nuttall is a poor substitute for Nigel Farage because | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
he was charismatic and they have lost that. The third thing of course | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
is as we saw in the early interviews, they are really fighting | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
like ferrets in a sack, and this is not a good thing if you want to | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
attract the public will stop the public will be bemused by this | :55:10. | :55:12. | |
infighting and people leaving at the local level, resigning their | :55:13. | :55:20. | |
positions in the party. As a consequence it is facing a real | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
problem. But he was a thing to think about. There was a poll conducted a | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
couple of weeks ago by you of, they are still an 11% in voting | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
intentions in the country is a whole and that is slightly below the two | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
other half percent they got in the general election in 2015. I don't | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
think they are out, they are facing problems but I don't think they have | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
been knocked out. Let me show you figures from 2015. The share in this | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
region went up from 4% to 16% in 2015. Is it down from the now do you | :55:57. | :56:04. | |
think? It is a little bit but you have to recognise that they | :56:05. | :56:06. | |
for a constituency in Britain as a for a constituency in Britain as a | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
whole and in the region, they speak for people who felt left behind by | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
and what academics call and what academics call | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
globalisation, a horrible word. They speak for people who are threatened | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
culturally by a large amount of immigration that has taken place | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
over the years so they have a constituency. If I were them, and I | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
am not, but if I where I would rebrand myself. I think what their | :56:33. | :56:38. | |
role is is an English national party, EMP if you like, they can | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
make the future by speaking for the constituency on those grounds. But | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
they have to break with the label Ukip now that the referendum has | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
been settled and we are getting out of the EU. One of the other things | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
that Mr Carswell and Ukip disagreed on was actually immigration. Yes. | :56:58. | :57:07. | |
Are you pleased he's gone? Yes, because you say please, I am | :57:08. | :57:09. | |
disappointed actually that it has come to this. I'm not screaming with | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
delight about it. But there was no two ways around it, he was not as | :57:15. | :57:20. | |
strong on immigration as we are. That is where we see, we had a | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
party, a pressure party you might say, we identify something happening | :57:26. | :57:27. | |
in the country would other political parties away from and we make that | :57:28. | :57:32. | |
the issue. It looks as though we have won it on Brexit but that is | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
still not quite there yet. The next big problem of the other two I | :57:38. | :57:41. | |
worked, immigration and integration. The other parties are backing away | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
from that. There hasn't been a prosecution on FGM apart from a | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
spurious one. We know that forced marriages going on but nothing is | :57:51. | :57:56. | |
being done. We know there is this honour violence. Will you rebrand? | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
that my colleague made here. It is that my colleague made here. It is | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
worth a great deal of money. Apparently the Ukip brand is among | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
country so to depart from that country so to depart from that | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
there's a big commercial risk and the discussion is made within Ukip | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
frequently, and we have a different sign? The pound is all about the | :58:17. | :58:19. | |
euro in that battle has been one but then we are reminded that we have a | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
very valuable brand and we should stick with it. Your support, albeit | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
still quite strong, is falling. And when you see what is going on with | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
Mr Carswell and the local council, it will be hard to rebuild from the | :58:33. | :58:38. | |
wanted? It is going to be easier than it was in the early days of | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
getting the party going and getting a brand. Now we have another | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
direction to take a graphical jibber the immigration and there's more to | :58:46. | :58:47. | |
it, that is all this nonsense of having a very expensive energy | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
policy because of global warming, we're the only party to take | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
head-on. Do you think these are things that the electorate will warm | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
to? It is tough because the most effective slogan in the Brexit | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
referendum was take back control. That worked well. But the | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
substitutes slogan seems to be we will keep an eye on the | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
Conservatives on Brexit. It is not quite so snappy is it? It isn't. So | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
I think they need a branding -- a rebranding. Despite the point that | :59:21. | :59:24. | |
the Ukip brand may be valuable I think they need to rename themselves | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
and orientate to represent the constituency have spoken about. You | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
see this across Europe. Parties like Ukip are doing well across Europe | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
for the same reasons and that is why I don't think the party will | :59:41. | :59:41. | |
disappear. OK. What we will do now disappear. OK. What we will do now | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
is have a round-up of our political week. It will take is 60 seconds and | :59:48. | :59:49. | |
here we go. MPs have been told that Norfolk has | :59:50. | :59:56. | |
one of the highest rates in the country for students who have | :59:57. | :59:58. | |
been permanently The number has almost doubled | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
for 172 300 in the last two years. Given the awful results for children | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
who are permanently excluded, what message does it send to Norfolk | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
to sort out this The new combined authority | :00:12. | :00:13. | |
for Peterborough and Cambridgeshire held its first meeting this week | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
in Wisbech after receiving ?100 It is about those parts of Cambridge | :00:21. | :00:23. | |
and Peterborough who perhaps in the past have not gotten | :00:24. | :00:33. | |
all the support they needed. Meanwhile Norwich MP | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
Clive Lewis had questions about George Osborne's new job | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
as editor of the evening standard. I will declare an interest | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
as a former NCTJ qualified journalist and also a member | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
of the National Union of Journalists which I hope the Right Honourable | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
member from Tatton will be I remember the honourable | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
gentleman's admissions And Suffolk MP Jo Churchill | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
did her bit for comic relief. Just before we go, do you think that | :00:59. | :01:18. | |
Mr Carswell will go back to the Tories? Definitely. He has given | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
himself three years to ingratiate himself with unmanned with a year's | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
time people will start as campaign there. I think your interview shows | :01:26. | :01:32. | |
he's applying for the job already. So that is a yes as well. Both of | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
you thank you. That's all from us, don't forget you can watch the | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
programme online through our website but for now from | :01:44. | :01:44. | |
can see you nodding in agreement but we don't have any more time! Thank | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
you both for coming in, Andrew, back to you. | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
So yesterday the European Union celebrated its 60th birthday | :01:55. | :02:12. | |
at a party in Rome, the city where the founding document | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
Leaders of 27 EU countries were there to mark the occasion - | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
overshadowing it, though, the continued terrorist threat, | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
And on Wednesday Theresa May, who wasn't in Rome yesterday, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
will trigger Article 50, formally starting | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
The President of the European Council, Donald Tusk, | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
made an appeal for unity at the gathering. | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
Today in Rome, we are renewing the unique alliance of free nations | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
that was initiated 60 years ago by our great predecessors. | :02:40. | :02:47. | |
At that time, they did not discuss multiple speeds, | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
they did not devise exits, but despite all the tragic | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
circumstances of the recent history they placed all their faith | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
Mr Tusk, he is Polish, the man that has the Council of ministers, and on | :02:58. | :03:16. | |
that council where every member of the EU sits he is an important | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
figure in what is now about to happen. We have got to negotiate our | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
divorce terms, we've got to agree a new free trade deal, new | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
crime-fighting arrangements, we've got to repatriate 50 international | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
trade agreements, and all of that has to be ratified within two years, | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
by 27 other countries. Can that really happen?! I don't think it is | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
inconceivable because it is in the interests of those 27 EU member | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
states to try and negotiate a deal that we can all live with, because | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
that would be preferable to Britain crashing out within two years. But I | :03:54. | :03:59. | |
think this is why Labour's position is becoming increasingly incoherent. | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
Keir Starmer has briefed today that he will be making a speech tomorrow | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
setting out six conditions which he wants the deal to meet, otherwise | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
Labour won't vote for it, but if Labour doesn't vote for it that | :04:11. | :04:28. | |
doesn't mean we will be able to negotiate an extension, that would | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
be incredibly difficult and require the consent of each of the 27 member | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
states, so if Labour votes against it we will just crash out, it is | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
effectively Labour saying no deal is better than a poor deal, which is | :04:39. | :04:40. | |
not supposed to be their position. Labour's position may be incoherent | :04:41. | :04:42. | |
but I was not asking about their position, I was asking about the | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
Government's position. The man heading the Badila said he wants it | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
ready by October next year so that it can go through the ratification | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
process, people looking at this would think it is Mission: | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
Impossible. It seems impossible to me to be done in that time. The fact | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
that it is 27 countries, the whole of the European Parliament as well, | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
there will be too many people throbbing spanners in the works and | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
quite rightly. We have embarked on something that is truly terrible and | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
disastrous, and the imagery we can have of those 27 countries | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
celebrating together 60 years of the most extraordinary successful | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
movement for peace, for shared European values, and others not | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
there... We were not there at the start either, and we are not there | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
now! And we have been bad partners while we were inside, but now that | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
we are leaving... They did not look like it was a birthday party to me! | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
I think it was, there was a sense of renewal, Europe exists as a place | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
envied in the world for its values, for its peacefulness, that is why | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
people flocked to its borders, that is why they come here. Can you look | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
at the agenda that faces the UK Government and EU 27, is it not | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
possible, in fact even likely, that as the process comes to an end they | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
will have to agree on a number of areas of transitional arrangements? | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
I think they will and they will have to agree that soon, I would not be | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
surprised if sometime soon there is an understanding is not a formal | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
decision that this is a process that will extend over something closer to | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
buy or seven than two years. On Wednesday article 50 will be filed | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
and there will be lots of excitement and hubbub but nothing concrete can | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
happen for a while. Elections in France in May, elections in Germany | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
which could really result in a change of Government... That is the | :06:39. | :06:51. | |
big change, Mrs Merkel might not be there by October. And who foresaw | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
that a few months ago? So you might be into 28 Dean before you are into | :06:55. | :06:57. | |
the substantive discussions about how much market access or regulatory | :06:58. | :06:59. | |
observance. I cannot see it being completed in two years. I could see, | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
if negotiations are not too acrimonious, that transitional | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
agreement taking place. Let's look at the timetable again. The council | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
doesn't meet until the end of April, it meets in the middle of the French | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
elections, the first round will have taken place, they will need a second | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
round so not much can happen. President Hollande will be | :07:18. | :07:24. | |
representing France, then the new French government, if it is Marine | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
le Pen all bets are off, but even if it is Mr Mac run, he does not have a | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
party, he will not have a majority, the French will take a long while to | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
sort out themselves. Then it is summer, we are off to the Cote | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
d'Azur, particularly the Bolivian elite, then we come back from that | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
and the Germans are in an election, it may be very messy, Mrs Merkel no | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
longer a shoo-in, it could be Mr Schultz, he may have to try to form | :07:51. | :08:03. | |
a difficult green red coalition, that would take a while. Before you | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
know it, it is Guy Fawkes' Day and no substance has taken place, yet we | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
are then less than a year before this has to be decided. It is a big | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
task and I'm sure Jana is right that there will be transitional | :08:14. | :08:14. | |
arrangements and not everything will be concluded in that two year | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
timetable, but in some respects what you have described helps those of us | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
on the Eurosceptic site because it means they cannot really be a | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
meaningful parliamentary vote on the terms of the deal because nothing is | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
going to be agreed quickly enough for them to be able to go back and | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
agree something else if Parliament rejects it, so when the Government | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
eventually have something ready to bring before Parliament it will be a | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
take it or leave it boat. How extraordinary that people who have | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
campaigned. Indeed give us our country back and say, isn't it | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
wonderful, we won't have a meaningful boat for our | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
parliamentarians of the most important... We don't know what the | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
negotiation, the package is, day by day we see more and more complicated | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
areas nobody ever thought about, nobody mentioned during the | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
campaign, all of which has to be resolved and the European Council | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
and the negotiators say nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
You lead us into a catastrophe. There will be plenty of opportunity | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
for Parliament to have its say following the introduction of the | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
Great Repeal Bill, it is not as if there will be no Parliamentary time | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
devoted. The final package is what counts. We have two years to blog | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
about this! There was a big Proview -- pro-EU | :09:33. | :09:44. | |
march yesterday... I was there! Polly Toynbee was there, down to | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Parliament Square, lots of people there marching in favour of the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
European Union. We can see the EU flags there on flags, lots of | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
national flags as well, the British one. Polly, is it the aim of people | :09:59. | :10:07. | |
like you still to stop Brexit, or to soften Brexit? I think the aim is | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
for the best you can possibly do to limit the damage. Of course, if it | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
happens that once people have had a chance to see how much they were | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
lied to during the campaign and how dreadful the deal is likely to be, | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
if it happens that enough people in the population have changed their | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
minds, then maybe... There is no sign up yet. But we have not even | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
begun, people have not begun to confront what it is going to mean. | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
Wait and see. I think it is just being as close as we can. Is that | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
credible, do you think, to stop it or to ameliorate it in terms of the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
Remainers? I think it is far more credible to try and stop it but even | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
then the scope is limited. It is fairly apparent Theresa May's | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
interpretation of the referendum is the country wants an end to free | :10:57. | :11:15. | |
movement, there is probably no way of doing that inside the single | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
market. She also wants external trade deals, no way of doing that | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
outside the customs unit, said the only night you can depend if you are | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
pro-European is, let's not leave without any trade pact, at least | :11:25. | :11:26. | |
let's meet Canada and have a formalised trade agreement. The idea | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
of ace -- of a very soft exit is gone now because the public really | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
did want an end to free movement and the Government really does want | :11:33. | :11:34. | |
external trade deals. It depends what changes in Europe. I think the | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
momentum behind the Remoaning movement will move away. One of the | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
banners I saw being held up yesterday by a young boy on the news | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
was, don't put my daddy on a boat. It gets a lot of its moral force | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
from the uncertainty surrounding the fate of EU nationals here and our | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
resident in the remainder of the EU and I think David Lidington is right | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
that it will be concluded quite quickly once negotiations start and | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
that will take a lot of the heat and momentum out of the remaining | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
movement. Why didn't Theresa May allow that amendment that said, we | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
will do that, as an act of generosity, we will say, of course | :12:18. | :12:20. | |
those European citizens here are welcome to stay? It would have been | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
such a good opening move in the negotiations, instead of which she | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
blocked it. It does not augur well. I have interviewed many Tories about | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
this and put that point to them but they often say the Prime minister's | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
job is to look after UK citizen in the EU... Bargaining chips, I think | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
you have to be generous and you have to wish you people in Spain and | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
everywhere else where there are British citizens would have | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
responded. The British Government did try and raise that with their EU | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
counterparts and were told, we cannot begin to talk about that | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
until article 50 has been triggered. Next week we will be able to talk | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
about it. How generous it would have been, we would have started on a | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
better note. Didn't happen, we will see what happens next with EU | :13:09. | :13:12. | |
citizens. That is it for today, the Daily Politics will be back tomorrow | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
at midday and every day next week on BBC Two as always. | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
And there's also a Question Time special live tomorrow | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
night from Birmingham - with guests including | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
the Brexit Secretary David Davis, Labour's Keir Starmer, | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
former Ukip leader Nigel Farage and the SNP's Alex Salmond - | :13:26. | :13:27. | |
I'll be back next week at 11am here on BBC One. | :13:28. | :13:33. | |
Until then, remember - if it's Sunday, it's | :13:34. | :13:37. |