18/05/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland

Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics. Four days to go until

election day, and be warned, coming to a street near you, a party leader

on a charm offensive. They all want your vote on Thursday, and

local elections across England as well. The polls this morning are all

over the place, so your vote could make a difference. This man has a

smile on his face. He is 11 point head. He has promised an earthquake.

He has been asking all the big questions. David Cameron went to a

chicken place. Where are you going questions. David Cameron went to a

for large? Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: Voting for

members of the European parliament gets under way on Thursday.

We'll be debating the big issues live with four of the main

candidates and asking them why it matters.

32 boroughs. I am in the studio, with those who think they have got

all the big answers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. So, it

is the European elections for everybody on Thursday, local

elections for England and a bit of Northern Ireland as well. They are

the last elections before the big one, the 2015 general election. Some

say that these European and local elections will not be much of a

pointer to how the big one goes. But that will not stop political

commentators and party gurus from examining them closely. So, what is

at stake? Thursday May the 22nd is local elections and European

Parliament elections. These local results should be known

by Friday. In the European elections, all 751 members of the

European Parliament will be elected across Europe. 73 MEPs will be let

it by people living in the UK. But the results will not be announced

until Sunday night, after voting has closed throughout the 28 member

states of the EU. Nick Watt, we are in a position where the polls this

morning cannot tell us what the outcome is going to be on Thursday,

and the general election is still wide open - we really are in

uncharted territory? Also it is difficult to know where we are,

because there is that ComRes poll which shows an 11 point lead amongst

those certain to vote for UKIP, and another poll in the Sunday Times

showing that it is a much more slender lead for UKIP. But we know

that will they win? We do not know, but clearly they will unsettle the

major parties. Fall or five months ago, we assumed that the UKIP

success would create panic in the Conservative Party, but that has

been factored into David Cameron's share price. The Conservative Party

is remarkably relaxed at the moment, and I wonder whether this time next

week, when we have the results, whether the two political leaders

who will be under pressure will be Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg. Nick

Clegg, because they could go down from 12 MEPs to maybe just three or

four. And Ed Miliband, because, one year before a general election, he

should be showing that he is a significant, potent electoral

force. So, they should all be worried about UKIP, but whereas a

couple of months ago, we would all have said David Cameron was the one

who should be worried, now, we are saying it is Mr Miliband and Mr

Clegg? And of the two, I think it is Ed Miliband who should be worried.

The Lib Dems are an incredibly resilient party. He described his

own party as cockroaches, and incredible resilience! I think the

Lib Dems are ready to take this one, but I think Labour are really wobbly

at the moment. What UKIP has done, to England, it means that England

has caught up with Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales, England

now has a four party system, which makes it all the more uncertain what

the outcome will be? Yes, but whether UKIP finish first or second,

it will be the biggest insurgent event since the European elections

began in 1979. People talk about the Greens in 1989, but I think they

finished third. Were UKIP to win a national election or even finish

runner-up, it would be truly historic. It is reflecting on

something which is happening across Europe, pianist in Italy, Holland,

France and in this country. -- populist parties. And it makes first

past the post look absolutely ridiculous. You could be in a

situation after the next general election where Labour do not get the

largest percentage of the vote but they get the largest number of

seats. First past the post works fairly if there are only two

parties, but when there are four... We will talk more about that. Let's

speak now to Suzanne Evans of UKIP. She is at Westminster. Now, UKIP

claims that there is going to be an earthquake in British politics on

Thursday. Suppose there is, what does UKIP then need to do to become

a more grown-up, proper party? I think UKIP has very much become a

grown-up, proper party. We have been around for 20 years. What we are

going to be doing after the European elections, if we do cause this

earthquake, and the polls are looking like we are going to, is we

will be firmly looking towards 2015, getting our general election

manifesto out, to keep those votes on board from the euro elections and

putting forward common-sense policies which really will bring

Britain back to the people. We want to be able to hold the balance of

power come the general election. If we can do that then there will be a

referendum. That will be our aim. You say you are a more grown-up

party, but when you look at the stream of gaffes and controversies

created by your candidates and members, I will not go into them

this morning, at the very least, I would suggest you are needing a more

robust system of selection? You could say the same for the other

three parties, who have been around for a lot longer. They have got

nothing like the embarrassments you had. I am afraid they had. Just this

week, since Monday, we have had 17 Liberal Democrat, labour or

Conservative councillors either arrested, charged or convicted on

all manner of offences. In addition we have had 13 who have been

involved in some kind of racist, sexist or homophobic incident. I am

not saying I am proud of any of that. The whole of politics probably

needs to be cleaned up, that. The whole of politics probably

certainly do not think we are any worse than the other parties, who

have much greater resources than worse than the other parties, who

putting people in power who they know

putting people in power who they or who have previously belonged to

far right, fascist parties BNP. Can you continue to be a

one-man band? The only BNP. Can you continue to be a

other UKIP petition makes the BNP. Can you continue to be a

headlines is when they say something loony or objectionable? We have

huge amount of talent in this party. We have fantastic spokespeople

across We have fantastic spokespeople

expertise in the party. We have fantastic spokespeople

who is a fantastic, We have fantastic spokespeople

leader. But believe me, We have fantastic spokespeople

huge amount of talent. When we get our

huge amount of talent. When we get European elections, we will see many

more of them I think on television and radio and in the newspapers. We

are not a one-man band. Who runs your party? The party is run by

Nigel Farage, our leader. But he spends all his time running between

television studios and in and out of spends all his time running between

the pub! You would be amazed how much he does, and of course we have

a National Executive Committee, like the other parties. So who runs it?

The National Executive Committee, in conjunction with Nigel Farage, the

MEPs, the spokespeople, it is a joint effort. Your Local Government

Minister Stosur is, if joint effort. Your Local Government

UKIP, you go on to pledge that your councillors will not toe the party

line, how does that work? -- your local government manifesto says...

line, how does that work? -- your On the main policies, they will toe

the party line, because that is obviously what people will be voting

for. It obviously what people will be voting

manifesto like the Lib Dems did on 2010 and going back on it. We have

put forward a lot of positive -- a lot of policies at local government

level, and those we will stick to. But when it comes to individual,

local issues, say, a particular development or the closure of a

school, whatever, UKIP development or the closure of a

vote what they think is in the development or the closure of a

interests of the people in the development or the closure of a

borough, and not according to any development or the closure of a

party whip system. This plays out really well on the doorstep, I find.

People do not want their politicians to be in the pockets

People do not want their politicians party, putting party first, ahead of

the people. You want people to vote to leave the European Union in a

referendum - have you published a road map as to what would then

happen? Yes, there will be a road map. The Lisbon Treaty for the first

happen? Yes, there will be a road time gave us that exit opportunity.

Have you published a road map? I am not the legal expert on this but

there are ways in which you can come out of Europe fairly quickly. There

is a longer you all as well. But have you published any of that

detail? Not that I have read. But certainly there are ways to do it.

We are the sixth strongest world economy, I think we are in a strong

position having left the EU to be able to negotiate a very good trade

deal with the European Union. It is what people voted for in 1975. What

would be our exact status? It would be I think what people voted for

back in 1975. An independent, sovereign country in a trade

agreement, a very positive and valuable trade agreement with the

European Union. I voted in that referendum, I remember it well, 1975

involved the free movement of people 's... That is something which I do

not think UKIP or the country wants. 70% of people now are deeply

concerned about immigration. So it would not be 1975, then? Andrew, it

sounds like you are complaining that we might have something which is

better than 1975. I am just trying to find out what it is! That sounds

like positive to me. We will negotiate a trade deal and all

manner of issues, whatever is best for the British people. We want our

sovereignty back, we want our country back. Would you be upset if

a bunch of Rumanian men moved in next door to you? Where I live, I am

surrounded by one and two-bedroom flats. If ten Rumanian men moved in

next door to me, I would want to ask questions. That is very different

from say a Robinho family moving in next door. I would think, are they

being ripped off, are they up to no good or are they perhaps being

trafficked by a gang master? So I think it would be of concern, and I

do not think there is anything wrong with that, it is a humanitarian

approach. That would be different from a family moving in who were

learning to speak English, who wanted to contribute to the British

economy. Maybe if your boss is watching, he will now have found out

how to answer that question. Now, what is more glamorous, 24

hours in the life of a counter-terrorism agent, or 12 hours

in the life of Adam Fleming, on the campaign trail? I will let you make

up your own mind. So, it is eight o'clock in the morning here in

Westminster. Today's challenge is, how much campaigning for the local

and European elections can we fit into 12 hours? See you back here at

eight o'clock tonight. Wish me luck. With my cameraman and

producer, we went to Thurrock in Essex first. I got a very, very warm

welcome from Abe buoyant UKIP. They have never had this much attention.

One candidate's misdemeanour ends up on the front page. But you have got

Lib Dem candidates being convicted of racially aggravated assault, and

that was not on the front pages of the newspapers. Houdini is fine but

it must be applied evenly. Have you had to sack Thurrock UKIP members

for dodgy tweets or anything? Oh, God, no. Next we head to meet a top

Tory in a different area. We are heading to Eastbourne. But stuck in

traffic. We are going to miss William Hague. We got there, just in

time, to ask the really big questions. David Cameron went to

Nando De Colo last week, where are you going to go for lunch? I do not

even get time for lunch. I think something in the back of the car. We

will go down the street and see what people have got to say. Even the

Foreign Secretary has depressed the flesh at election time? Even the

Foreign Secretary meets real people. The message William Hague impresses

upon everyone he meets is that the Tories are the only party offering a

referendum on our membership of Tories are the only party offering a

EU. He's off for lunch in the limo. I've got five minutes by the beach.

This is the best thing about elections, lunch. Do you want one?

And chips are weirdly relevant at our next stop - the Green Party

battle bus which is parked in Ashford in Kent. What is special

about this vehicle? It runs from chip fat oil so it is more friendly

to the environment. But boss was boiling. The next stop is Gillingham

to see Labour. Labour have just hired Barack Obama's election guru

David Axelrod to help them craft their message. What does David

Axelrod know about the people who live on the street? I know the local

details but you handle those. Ed Miliband and his party have had to

handle a few dodgy opinion polls lately, prompting some leadership

speculation from one activist. Who is your favourite Labour politician?

Ed Balls. Back in the car and we're flagging. Final stop, Southwark in

south London. We are in the right place, this is Simon Hughes' Lib Dem

taxi. The Lib Dems are campaigning as the party of in. But are they in

trouble? Your party president said the party would be wiped out and

lose its MEPs. Is that helpful? If he did say that, then no, that's not

terribly helpful. And let's not forget, every London council is

having elections too. I have 40 minutes to get back to the

having elections too. I have 40 Westminster, which calls for

something drastic, like this. After 212 miles, but will be make it home

for eight? We have made it, aided, 12 hours of pure politics. Happy

elections, everyone. Adam Fleming impersonating Jack

Bauer! Natalie Bennett is in our studio, welcome back. The Greens

used to be the upcoming party in Britain, now it is UKIP. What went

wrong? We are in a very good place, looking towards travelling our MEPs

and we could be the fourth largest group in Parliament after these

elections. More and more people are recognising we are the only party

calling for real change, the only party saying we have two stop making

poor, disadvantaged young people over the mistakes bankers. You have

made a strong pro-environment stands synonymous with the politics of the

left, why have you done that? Why should an equal minded Conservative

vote for you? I think one of the reasons why many Conservatives, I

met them in Chester where they are stopping coalbed methane

exploration, lots of Conservatives are looking to vote for us beyond

issues like fracking and the Green belt, and many of them are concerned

about the fact we haven't reformed the banks. This morning we had the

Bank of England chief coming out and saying we have a huge house price

bubble and people recognise that many of the parties offering the

same are not working. And yet the polls show that the hardline

greenery is not winning. We are looking to travel our number of MEPs

and we have people recognising that we have to change the way our

economic 's, politics and society works so that everyone has

sufficient resources within the limits of the one planet because one

planet is all we have got. You want all electricity to be generated by

renewables, is that right? So where would the electricity come from on

days when the wind is not blowing? Most of the electricity is there. It

is mature. We need to be hooked into a European wide grid, we need a

smart grid that will allow for demand to be adjusted according to

supply. So we would take French nuclear power, would we? We need to

work with a partnership across Europe. We are being left behind and

we are losing opportunities. 50% of German renewable electricity is

owned by communities and it stays within communities, rather than the

big six energy companies. So you have still got to take the French

nuclear power. What we need to do... Nuclear is a dead technology,

going down in the developed world. At the moment the Government

proposes the most expensive proposal for Britain and yet the last two

plans took 17 years to bring online, way too slow for what we need now.

We know what the Green council would be like if you were to win more

seats on Thursday because you run Brighton. Your own Green MP joined

strikers against the council, the local Greens are at each other's

throats, a council ridden with factionalism, attempts to raise

council tax to 5%, attempted coups against the local Green leader by

other Greens and you have had to bring in mediators. If you look at

the life of people in Brighton and Hove, it has seen its visitor

numbers go up by 50,000, it has become the top seaside resort in

Britain, we have seen GCSE results going up significantly. These are

the things affecting people's lives in Brighton and Hove. 60% of

Brighton and Hove people think life is better and the Greens. We have a

debate to be had from next year's election and perhaps we can have

that debate next year. But you hold up Brighton as the way the city

should be run? We have made huge progress, we have found money to be

brought into the city to improve Green spaces. I was on the big ride

in London yesterday, and we need to change our roads so they worked the

people as well as cars. Which side of the picket line were you on in

Brighton? With Caroline Lucas? I was in London, travelling around as I do

most days. From Penzance to Newcastle and many areas in between.

Probably a good move. Thank you. I'm joined now by the Conservative MP,

the Lib Dem MP Simon Hughes and Sajid Javid. We want to see a

European Union resolutely focused on the single market, free trade, and

only we can bring about that change. Labour and Lib Dems are happy with

the status quo, in fact they would like more integration, and a UKIP

party can not deliver the change. Hilary Benn, at this stage positions

usually romp home in European elections and no party has gone on

to form a government without winning the European elections first. Now it

suggests you could become second, you haven't handled UKIP very well

either. There is a lot of alienation from politics around, globalisation

has left some behind and people are concerned about that but UKIP will

not provide the answer. Nigel Farage only talks about Europe. We are to

hear it would not be in the interests of British people to come

out of Europe. We do want a season change in Europe, for example we

want longer periods when new member states come in. We don't think child

tax credits should be paid to children not living in the UK, but

Nigel Farage is also proposing to charge us when we see the GP, to

halve maternity pay, and he wants a flat tax. UKIP is not the answer to

the problems we face and we will continue to campaign as we have done

to show that we are putting forward policies on energy prices, and in

the end that is what people will look for. Simon Hughes, you will be

lucky to come forth. The voters decide these things. Really? I never

knew that. My response to the UKIP question is that they get support

because they have never been in power, they are never likely. A bit

like the way you used to never get into power. I accept that, but now

we are in government. The reality is that laws made in Brussels, we make

together by agreement, and it is the case from the Commons figures that

only seven out of 100 laws are made in Brussels. Actually they have been

shown not to be the only ones. 14 out of 100. If we were to come out

of Europe, we would seriously disadvantage our economics and the

jobs... 3 million jobs depend on the European Union. If the Conservatives

comes third or even a poor second, it will show that people don't

really trust your promise about European referendum. They have been

there before, they don't trust you. What we have already shown, despite

being in coalition with Liberal Democrats, we have shown progress on

Europe, we have vetoed a European treaty when people said we

wouldn't, we have cut the European budget which is something Liberal

Democrats and Labour MEPs voted against, we cut it by ?8 billion.

But overall we are still paying more. We have still cut it. We have

taken Britain out of the bailout fund that Labour signed us up to. We

are now going to take that same energy to Europe and renegotiate our

relationship and let the British people decide in a referendum. Why

has Ed Miliband become such a liability for your party? Even your

own MPs are speaking out against him. If you look at the polls, we

have been in the lead almost consistently. The voters will

decide. Ed Miliband is a decent man, but what really marks him out is

that he is thinking about the problems the country faces. Simon

and Sajid both support the bedroom tax, we will scrap it. Ed Miliband

said the energy market doesn't work for consumers, we will freeze energy

prices while we change the system. So why are his ratings even lower

than Nick Clegg's? They will be voted for next year in the general

election, and if I were David Cameron I would ask myself this

question - the economy is recovering, why is it that David

Cameron and the Conservatives have been behind in the polls? Because in

the end the big choice in British politics is between the two parties

that say, if we sought the deficit everything is fine, and Labour who

say that there are things about this country, the insecurity that has

given rise for support for UKIP, and we are the ones talking about doing

something about zero hours contracts. The more your leader

bangs on about Europe, the worse your poll ratings get. He is out of

the kilter with British people. It may not be a majority of people who

think that we ought to stay in the European Union, but when you speak

to people about it, people understand that we are better in

them out. In the elections on Thursday, that is not about who runs

Britain, that is for next year. In terms of the local councils, we have

battles on the ground, like in my community, where we are trying to

take it back from the Labour Party. Affordable housing has just not been

delivered. We have delivered that in office and we had admitted to that.

-- we are committed to that. Labour have actually demolished homes. So,

people want more affordable homes. One issue which is behind people's

antipathy towards immigrants is that they cannot get the affordable

housing they need. We as a government have delivered more

affordable housing in this Parliament -170,000 new properties

earning and more, over the next three years. That does not work out

that very many per year. Overall housing is a lot less than it was in

2006. Let me tell you, under the Labour government, we lost nearly

half a million affordable homes. Fewer built than under Mrs Thatcher

or under the coalition. What is your last ditch message to the millions

of Tory voters thinking of voting UKIP on Thursday? First, what I

would say is, Ed Miliband also said that we should not tackle the

deficit, it was not a priority. As a result of our resolute focus, we now

have the fastest growing economy in the developed world, and more people

employed than ever before. I am sure you will have more chance to say

that at the general election, what is the answer to my question? We

need a Europe which is focused on free trade and the single market.

Labour and Lib Dems are happy with the status quo, we are not. We are

the only party which can bring about change, UKIP cannot bring about any

change. Hilary Benn, why not have a referendum on Europe? If you think

like Nigel Farage that you should get out of Europe, I do not agree

with him, because Britain's future lies in Europe. My message simply

would be, vote for a party which wants to tackle insecurity in the

workplace, to give more security to the 9 million people who are now

privately renting, build more homes. What Simon has just said about the

coalition's housing record, it has been appalling, the lowest level

since Stanley Baldwin was Prime Minister. With Labour, you have got

a party which will freeze energy prices, more childcare, policies

which directly address the problems which people face. I think the

public will realise that. UKIP offers absolutely nothing at all for

the future of the country. You used to be in favour of a referendum? We

are in favour, we voted for one, we have legislated for one. The next

time there is a change between Britain and Europe, in the

relationship, there will be a referendum. We have supported that.

We voted for it. You would obviously want to vote yes in any referendum.

We would. But if you had one now, it would be for coming out or staying

in, and you are going to wait until there is another step son shall

transfer of powers to Brussels, and then say to people, either vote for

this substantial transfer or vote to leave! Of course they will vote to

leave! Yes, we are not natural partners with the Conservatives, but

we do not want to be distracted at the moment by a referendum in the

future in relation to Europe. Because what we have done is built

our own economy back. That has been the priority. We do not want

artificial priorities. The Tories want an artificial date plucked out

of the air for their own advantage. We say, let's get on with being

positive about being in Europe, and many people on the doorstep

absolutely understand that. Yesterday, the Energy Minister said

that he thought the party would be willing to campaign for a British

withdrawal from the EU if there was not a successful negotiation, a

successful repatriation, do you agree with that? First of all, I am

very optimistic... I got that I am going into these negotiations with

confidence but Michael Fallon is one of your ministerial colleagues, he

said that if we cannot get a deal on substantial repatriation, then the

party should be willing to campaign for a

If you don't get substantial repatriation, will you side with the

Prime Minister? I may have only been in politics five years, but I won't

answer that kind of hypothetical question. The important thing is...

They are hypothetical. I go into negotiations with confidence. If you

look at our track record, it suggests we will be successful.

Hilary Benn, but is the difference between your attitude and the Lib

Dems attitude to a referendum? We have been very clear if it is

proposed in the future, and it is unlikely, then further powers will

be transferred, we would be back to the British people in a referendum.

It would be an in and out referendum. We would only be

agreeing to a transfer of powers if we thought it was in the interests

of Britain. Individual member states have a veto on that. We believe

Britain's plays remains in Europe for economic reasons. But we also

want to see some changes in our relationship with Europe, and

electing Labour MEPs on Thursday will be a way of boosting that. In

what way has everything you said there not been entirely synonymous

with the Lib Dems. You asked me about labour's policy. We think this

is the right thing. It is the dividing line between us and UKIP.

They believe that Britain leaving the European Union would be good for

the economy. The truth is it would be really bad for it. So many jobs

and investment depends on being part of a larger market in an

increasingly globalised world. We had to take action at home to

provide... we seem to have lost our connection there. I have one more

question for the locals. Give me your best pitch will stop what is

the single most important reason people should vote for you in the

local elections? Taxpayers money is just that, it doesn't belong to the

politicians. We could do more with that money and get more for less. If

you look at Conservatives, most haven't raised their council tax,

and they have got more for less. That is what people deserve. We will

produce the maximum amount possible in a affordable housing to meet the

housing needs of Britain, instead of the richest minority having flats

and houses that nobody can afford to stop you like I'm sorry we can't go

to Hilary Benn. He was a vote Labour, and that will be a good

reason. The balance has been restored. Thank you gentlemen. You

are watching Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland.

Good morning. Welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. The polls open

for the European Parliament elections this coming Thursday.

Around 500 million citizens in Europe will elect 751 MEPs to serve

them on the 22nd of May. Scotland is treated as one constituency, and we

elect six MEPs. Last time, only a third of Scots bothered to vote, and

turnout is generally low. But this time round, it's an election in

which two referendums dominate discussion - the Scottish one and

David Cameron's proposed one to stay or leave the EU. Will this boost

turnout? Joining us this morning are four of the candidates for election

to the European Parliament. David Martin for the Labour Party. Tasmina

Ahmed Sheikh for the SNP. George Lyon for the Liberal Democrats. And

Dr Ian Duncan for the Conservatives. At the start of their campaign,

Green candidate Maggie Chapman said a vote for her party would help

deliver "the politics of hope". We offer a politics of hope for

Scotland. It is a politics that turns its back on nuclear

aggression, and on the relic that is NATO. It is a politics that is

welcoming and welcomes people regardless of where they come from,

and it is a politics of NTS Doty, of standing up for the poor, not the

people who have caused the economic crisis that people are suffering

from. UKIP is also contesting the

election, and have set their hopes on at least one seat. This is what

candidate David Coburn said as they officially began their campaign. The

main point of voting UKIP is to get us out of the European Union, to

stay in the UK union, and also to make sure that we defend small

businesses from government and also from the European Union. The top

priority is to keep Scottish business and people are praised of

the daft schemes that are going on in the European Union. Also to try

to oppose anything of that nature, and get out of the European Union,

which is my first objective. I want to make myself redundant.

So without further ado, let's speak to the candidates. Thank you for

being here. David Martin, you are quoted in a newspaper this morning

as saying that independence is no barrier to EU membership? Are you

coming around to the SNP's position? It is a strange view of a quote in a

newspaper. But I said is that I would expect Scotland one day to

become a member... An independent country. I said this on Brian

Turner's programme on Friday. I said it was nonsensical to say we could

negotiate for membership of the European Union union in 18 months.

The presumption is you right in the EU, and we would have to negotiate

our way out. That would take a long time. You were quoted as saying we

wouldn't be forced into the Schengen and the euro. You like I said we

would eventually negotiate our way out. But they would need to be a

hiatus now membership. If you have to negotiate, it takes time. In

negotiations, you have to make concessions. We haven't heard from

the government is what we would concede in order to get out of the

Schengen and the Eurozone. It would weaken Scotland's negotiating

position if we became an independent nation. What are the SNP's redlines?

Weigh it is important to say that we said from the beginning they would

be a negotiation. A legal adviser said the 18 month period we set out

is realistic. We look forward to having those negotiations as soon as

we have a yes vote in September. Glaciations means you don't get

everything you want. You have to give and take. Which area are you

willing to give and take on? -- negotiations. What we would go to

the table with is a programme for Scotland about getting the best

possible deal, in the knowledge that Scotland has a tremendous amount to

offer the European Union. We expect negotiations will be positive. Do

you expect at the end of these the glaciations that Scotland will be in

the same position as the UK is at this moment? -- negotiations. The UK

is not exactly a positive member of the European Union. We will enter

negotiations with the view of having positive positions, one which will

be embraced. Negotiations have to start in order to come to

conclusion, but I'm confident that Scotland has a amount to offer. I

expect we will be embraced by the European Union for FAQs like we have

so many oil reserves. Ultimately, as the Scottish Government says, you

contribute a huge amount to Europe, so why wouldn't you want Scotland as

a member? What we do know is that the president of the council said

categorically that on independent Scotland becoming a third country,

we would have to negotiate our way back in. The key issue is what is

the Scottish Government willing to give up to get out entry back in?

The United Kingdom is widely regarded as a detached member of the

European Union because it has a pick and mix menu. It picks some of the

good things and rejects others. The real question is whether other 20

member states want another small semidetached member state? I think

not. Which powers with a gift to Brussels and how much extra are they

willing to pay to rejoin Europe? That is the key question. We haven't

heard anything from the SNP about what they are willing to trade.

Which mechanism would be deployed that would put Scotland outside of

the EU given that as part of the UK, Scotland has been a member for over

40 years? The treaties, all of the, and the United Kingdom is a member

state. If we vote leave, they believe the treaties, and therefore

we have to renegotiate our way back in. That is clear. Nowhere in any of

the treaties is Scotland's recognised as a member state. We

need to negotiate and get all of the 28 member states to agree to

Scotland becoming a full member state. That is simple politics. The

Liberal Democrats are all over the place. A senior Liberal Democrat MP

says there is no mechanism to remove Scotland from the EU because they

are part of the United Kingdom. You should never have said that

membership would be automatic. He said that was a mistake. Do you

agree? Won as a senior Liberal Democrat on Spanish radio, they said

there was no mechanism under which you could remove Scotland from them

and should have the EU? Did you make a mistake in not being honest with

people. I have to say there is no automatic mechanism. That is the

first time the SNP have admitted a mistake. They do not know how long

that will take. Ultimately, those negotiations will

sit -- will be successful and there is every chance that an independent

Scotland will be a member of the EU and potentially could argue for

that? I don't say it is automatic, I say... Can I return to the question?

The first thing is I don't doubt Scotland can be a member. Then Mac

is it gave everything it has by now, if it gave up all of those things,

it would get in. The reality is that families will have to pay more tax

and have less freedoms. All of these issues will be lost. If you want to

give in in 18 months, give it all up, and you will get in. The demands

being put forward would make Nigel Farage blush. You should pledge

right now to sign up to every part of the EU, and not ask for the

semidetached status but the UK in droves. -- that the UK enjoys.

Why-mac you are all in agreement that when they talked about the

Scottish becoming part of the EU, that was wrong. Every politician has

spoken, whether it is the Spanish Foreign Minister or not, this will

be a matter of politics. Oh have their separatist agendas, and they

are concerned about that. English is not the Spanish Prime Minister's

first-line witch. He said it would be extremely difficult. And it is my

position. It is probably loose talk, but he might well be right. There is

nothing certain in any of this. The Spanish group to gain and say we

don't want to encourage this. -- the Spanish could dig in. I don't see

other countries signing up to this. We're not taking before benefits of

members of the be it a kingdom. We have food banks in Scotland which we

should be ashamed of. There is a rise in the use of food banks.

Westminster refused to take any money from the EU that was on offer.

We are spending 500 million euros, that's 443 euros, and we decided we

wouldn't take a penny to assist the peace looks like people in Scotland

who are suffering hardship due to the cuts made by the Conservative

government. We are not taking... If you don't mind, I would like it if

people didn't speak over each other. If I may finish my point, there is

much we can gain by membership of the European Union. This is not a

virtue of us being part of the United Kingdom, which is not working

for Scotland. If you want to be a constructive member of the EU, you

have to sign up for all elements of it. Westminster is not working for

Scotland, and certainly not on the EU stage. Why wouldn't Scotland want

to be a full member of the European Union in?

It is our position to retain a currency union, and we would be

going into the EU with that. Doesn't matter if this takes longer than 18

months? Yes, because you would have removal of investment, and this

uncertainty, foreign students, foreign nationals living in this

country whose status would not be clear. It will be chaotic if we

cannot do this within 18 months. Professor James Crawford did say he

thought the 18 month timetable was realistic. He said UN membership

will be straightforward. In the case of the EU there are things to

negotiate. These are not automatic. I didn't say automatic. He did say

18 months seems realistic. He then went on to clarify. I don't believe

18 months is realistic. If you take the Czech republic when it separated

from tobacco, they required 30 treaties and 20,000 legal agreements

in order to separate two countries that went through a so-called Velvet

divorce. We will be doing all of this between Scotland and the rest

of the UK within 18 months, negotiating with the U. This was the

same EU that was able to subsume southern Germany overnight. Hang

on, you did not want me to interrupts let me finish my point.

East Germany joined the EU by joining Germany. So there were no

negotiations required. The territory of the EU is determined by the

territory of the member states. If Scotland leaves the UK we are out of

the U. The referendum threatens jobs and investment in Scotland. What is

important to people in Scotland right now is to protect jobs. We

have access to 500 million citizens in the EU and it is about time we

stood up for the people of Scotland. Let's talk about that in out

referendum. Your party is offering a referendum on EU membership if your

party is returned at the 2015 general election. Right now, I think

we can make a big change. We are bringing about reform, we've begun

to recognise what some of the key areas will be. Financial services,

oil exploration and so forth. And you think it will be difficult for

these negotiations to take place with an independent Scotland. We are

a member of the EU, those negotiations are straightforward.

They aren't if leaders don't want to go along with them. That's where it

becomes interesting. We did not manage to secure the first cut to

the EU budget without joining together with the pins and the

Swedes. Michael Fallon has said the Conservative Party is willing to

campaign for withdrawal from the EU if it couldn't successfully

negotiate its membership. So can if it couldn't successfully

the UK to exit the UK if it couldn't successfully

the Prime Minister party support the idea of the

referendum then? party support the idea of the

part of the coalition to guarantee party support the idea of the

be given a choice and there would party support the idea of the

a referendum. We believed it was Administration. We increased

investment and education, tackling youth unemployment and transport. We

can achieve reform from within by seeking allies. That is where we

fundamentally disagree with the Conservatives. We're better off

within Europe if we people in work. You refuse to asked

people in work. You refuse to asked people, you refuse to give them a

choice. You are part of the Coalition Government and we believe

you should Coalition Government and we believe

parties have said the same thing but they refuse to do so.

parties have said the same thing but Prime Minister had a cast iron

agreement for the Lisbon Treaty he renege on that. What he is saying

right now is if we are elected in the general election, there will be

a referendum. the general election, there will be

people to have a choice. Just like the referendum you are having. Given

that your party is keen on the referendum you are having. Given

the people of Scotland a referendum on whether to stay or leave the U?

This is not looking much like a on whether to stay or leave the U?

was going to make was one about the NI referendum. It has been said

there was no reference in that to a mechanism for that. Currently, there

is no appetite for a referendum on the EU in Scotland. If I may and so

the question... Just a second. You say there is no appetite, but

actually the most recent opinion polls show only 48% support the US

in Scotland. Not even a majority of people in Scotland support the EU at

this stage. I think we will find the position will greatly differ when

the referendum... If I might finish the sentence, when the referendum

takes place in September and we have the chance to speak only for

Scotland. One of your MPs told the BBC in March that once a deal was

negotiated on Europe as part of an independent Scotland, there might be

an act is certain logic to holding a referendum. Well, the best thing

about independence is we will be allowed to have democracy in

Scotland, at this moment in time we do not have the opportunity to do

so. So once you have negotiated your position in Europe you don't think

there is a sense in offering... You have to pay more to be part in the

club. We should at least have the people of Scotland whether they want

to join under those new terms and conditions. I think once we have the

referendum and we take stock and we have the opportunity to find a speak

for Scotland and to finally backed the Scotland... At the moment, I

would like to have the chance to be taking a seat at the table in the EU

to negotiate for Scotland, because Scotland is losing out currently. In

terms of jobs and investment. We don't participate in the Park -- the

youth employment scheme to assist young people getting into jobs. We

don't take advantage of funds. It is not so long ago that your MEP Alan

Smith said there should indeed be a referendum on Scotland's

relationship with the EU. Now you have flipped and flopped. You are no

longer going to asked about membership because you no longer

trust them. More powers to Brussels is part of the negotiations. You

have to ask people if they agree with that. That is conjecture on

your port -- part, we have not even entered negotiations. These

gentlemen well I hope the batting for Scotland when we enter those

negotiations. David Martin, will you be batting for Scotland's I will be

on Thursday to win the European elections, and we haven't actually

talked about what we going to do if we are elected. My party is clear

that we do not want to use it to campaign for in and out the European

Union. We want to use it to decide on job opportunities for people in

Scotland, how we continue to reform the banking sector, how we tackle

tax evasion and avoidance, free trade deals that benefit the rest of

the world, balanced by environmental and labour 's data was -- labour

issues. Do you not think the public want a say on the future of Scotland

in EE U? Yes, my party is clear on what we would do. The real concerns

of people is jobs, security and the economy. That is why we argue

passionately that staying in Europe is a way to do that. There are

thousands of jobs that are linked to our membership of the European

Union. We are the fastest-growing economy in Europe at the moment,

and... Just one second. Another issue is immigration and I want to

ask about that. Scotland seems less resistant to immigration than other

parts of the UK, but a poll has said they do want fewer migrants in

Scotland. If you look at the figures for the UK, we reckon there are

roughly 2.3 million migrants living in the UK and 2.2 million British

citizens living elsewhere in Europe, so it is almost even. They often

plug skills gaps, they are helping universities by being students. I

actually think they contribute significantly to our economy, so I

am not in favour of tackling immigration the way it has been

described by UKIP. What I would say is the problem with immigration

sometimes is an scrupulous employers abuse migrants to undercut wages and

conditions. That is why some of the resentment comes from. We've said

the minimum fine for an employer abusing migrants would be ?15,000.

We had said there should be some co-labour standards to stop

employers using migrant labour to undercut conditions. So, British

jobs for British workers? No, no, the opposite.

jobs for British workers? No, no, economy but we should make sure

basic social standards are upheld. There are couple of things to

stress. People coming here speculatively to

try to find jobs, People coming here speculatively to

problem. David and I were People coming here speculatively to

Party should have put in transition People coming here speculatively to

given at option again with Bulgaria and remain near and they did not.

But figures show the fear of people coming from these countries is much

greater than the reality. The reality is, transition controls make

a difference and they should have been adopted

a difference and they should have situation. We can argue mistakes

were made in the past. Should there be more or

were made in the past. Should there EU going forward's we do

were made in the past. Should there there is a skills gap in so many

parts of the country. We've got there is a skills gap in so many

make sure migrants are still a vibrant and significant part of

Oracle on me. We need them to fill the jobs that we find are

Oracle on me. We need them to fill done. Surely the logical thing is

that we need more of them. What we don't want is people

the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism is a risk

the hope of finding a job. Benefit British taxpayers.

the hope of finding a job. Benefit across Europe is fundamental to the

the hope of finding a job. Benefit tourism, because what we want to

here and work, pay taxes and contribute to our society. How many

here and work, pay taxes and people are coming here to be benefit

here and work, pay taxes and tourists's recent -- benefit

tourists? They are actually a net benefit to

tourists? They are actually a net certainly evidence that this

tourists? They are actually a net problem. We want to send clear

signal you are willing to make a

contribution you are willing to make a

else does. The real challenge is you are willing to make a

reform Europe to make sure we get growth across Europe. So that some

of the countries where these people are coming from grow their own

economies. That will benefit the UK because 50% of our exports are to

the European Union. So reforming the services and the energy market,

these are the big challenges. Do we need more or less immigration to the

EU? This is anti-devolution and anti immigration. We want a welcome and

socially just Scotland, and let -- let's be clear, in terms of

immigration, there is parity. The population declined in Scotland. Do

we need more migrants in Scotland? We need to welcome people to

Scotland, and the rich tapestry that makes up Scotland. You would

remember when the rules were relaxed in terms of where many and and

Bulgarians, there was concern that would be an influx of millions of

people. The figures have gone down by 4000. Let's be clear, Scotland is

a welcoming and inclusive society. We want to be on the world stage

with that in mind. We want to welcome people to come here and work

here. Everybody else has talked about reform. What kind of reform

would you argue for if you were elected? Reform is absolutely

necessary, and we will work with our partners to ensure that happens.

Whether that is in relation... Well, we will be having partners in the

referendum in September. I am asking what happens now if you are elected

on Thursday? The reforms are you pushing for? We want to have parity

in what happens in the European institutions, and winning powers

that they should be locally to benefit the people of Scotland, and

looking at the petition we started of having one seat for the European

Parliament in Brussels. You have no partners in the European Parliament,

and are so is as -- isolated you have to sit with the green group. To

come back to my previous point, but is it that Westminster has

negotiated for Scotland in the EU? We have the worst... You keep

talking about Westminster. We have the worst deal for our farmers in

Scotland than any state in the EU. He indicated he would give up

Scotland's share in the rebate to support farmers. Would you support

that? Weigh when we have independence, the rest of the UK

will also have to negotiate their position. Let's talk about the

Common agricultural policy. The Scotland get a good deal? Pool-mac

Scotland gets a reasonable deal. We will deliver some way around ?4.1

billion to Scotland over the coming years. Currently we have the second

highest payments in Europe. We negotiated to make sure we had all

of the powers in Holyrood. Unfortunately, the minister has been

delaying for months, and we still don't know how the Scottish see a

people work. Northern and Welsh farmers already know. We saw an

increase in development funding. We also negotiated all of this for

Scottish priorities for young entrants, which was our main

priority, and also the priorities to tackle farm subsidies. In all of

these areas, indeed Richard welcomed the deal, when it was introduced.

The UK Government dividing up the money across the UK in a way we are

disadvantage is Scotland because Scotland has a stronger case for

more money than other areas of the UK. You have to remember that we

have a fully devolved system, which is unusual compared to the rest of

Europe. The country has one particular system. We have been able

to recognise Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland to create

differences and recognised local needs. That is significant. As

Scotland's needs being met with Mac or Mac I think they are being

addressed in one way or another. What we are seeing is that

priorities for farmers are met, and we don't know whether as the rocket

has delayed despite telling farmers what they can expect. I expect we

will be told after the referendum. Scotland was entitled to 230 million

euros being paid to it, and there was a cross-party agreement that

should come directed to Scotland will stop notwithstanding,

Westminster decided to keep the money for themselves and split

amongst the four regions, when it was Scotland that required the

money. There was a cross-party agreement. The reality is that

Scotland would have had 1 billion extra euros. A full review has been

offered in 2016 with implementation. It is now been

conceded that they would have to negotiate back into Europe to hold

onto what we currently with no opportunity until 2022 negotiate a

battle sediment for Scottish farmers. The real danger is that the

formula used for new member statements fix state make --

statements is to get 20% of the settlement payments across Europe.

Is Scotland disadvantaged by the way the CAP money is being divided? When

I was first elected, I was very critical. We have reformed to this

policy. We are now in a position where payment of farmers is made on

the basis that single farm payment is no longer linked to production.

We don't have the overproduction we used to have in agriculture.

Inevitably, that means some of the subsidies have gone down. The

situation has changed in relation to farming. I thought Britain got a

good deal at the end... The Scotland get a good deal? Scotland is ?1

billion out. Everybody is down. The point is that George was making is

that if we were in into panic country, we would have a nap or

cultural budget slashed if we were part of the European, because that

is the pattern across the whole of the union. Countries have seen that

they are not getting the same share of the agricultural money. More

scaremongering that we hear from the Westminster parties. It is not

matter of fact. It is entire conjecture on your part. It is about

time that Scotland had the opportunity to speak for herself on

an EU state, and come September and a yes vote, we will have that

opportunity. As I said, the formula that has been used for the last ten

countries that have joined the European Union in terms of CAP

funny, if that was the outcome of Scotland's negotiation, that would

be ?300 million going to Scottish farming. That is not a prospect

farmers would be supporting. Very briefly. The big risk is that

farmers will not be subsidised. It is bad for farmers and Scotland.

That is what will happen in that referendum. But we thank you for

being here. Before we go, just a reminder. There

are three other parties on your ballot paper for the European

Election - Britain First, the BNP, and No2EU. Voting takes place on

Thursday the 22nd of May. The result won't be out until the following

Sunday, in line with the rest of Europe. More details about all the

parties and candidates, and the election generally, is on BBC

Scotland news website. That's all from us this week. I'll

be back at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye.