08/06/2014 Sunday Politics Scotland

Morning, folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

David Cameron slaps down two of his most senior cabinet ministers

over their public row about Islamist extremism in schools.

Michael Gove makes his apologies, but not to Theresa May - and it is

her special advisor that has to resign.

We will talk to the Shadow Education Secretary live.

Should this man become the next President of the EU Commission?

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping Luxembourg federalist

Jean-Claude Juncker, but could the arch Europhile yet get the top job?

And we will find out why this political party is celebrating

with a pint down the pub and how their success may have cost UKIP

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland...

Former Labour cabinet minister John Reid makes his first speech

for the Better Together campaign. He will be on live, to tell us

why it has taken him so long to enter the debate.

who are always squabbling among themselves, Nick Watt, Polly Toynbee

and Janan Ganesh, who will be tweeting throughout the programme

This morning's political news is dominated

by the very public fall-out of Home Secretary Theresa May and

The high viz blue on blue spat between two senior

Conservatives centred around the Government's approach to tackling

The row burst into the open ahead of the publication tomorrow of

investigations into the so-called Trojan Horse plot in Birmingham,

where it is alleged several state schools have been covertly taken

Mr Gove told The Times last week he was concerned that the Home Office

was unwilling to tackle extremism at its roots.

He said a robust response was needed to drain the swamp.

In response, Mrs May's special advisor tweeted,

"why is the Department for Education wanting to blame other people

Lord knows what more they have overlooked on the subject of the

An angry David Cameron ordered a speedy inquiry.

Last night, Mr Gove apologised to the Prime Minister, while Ms May's

Speaking on the BBC earlier this morning,

this is what Foreign Secretary, William Hague, had to say.

There's been a disciplinary matter within the Government,

which the Prime Minister has dealt with in a very firm, clear way.

There will be discipline in the Government.

The main thing is the issue itself - tackling extremism in schools.

The Government will be very clear, very robust about anything that's

put children at risk - risk to their safety or learning.

Let's look at the positive of this. Theresa May 's people of saying she

has come off worse in theirs. Yelena Kushi is no more guilty than Michael

Gove he was guilty of indiscretion. She is no more guilty. Even during

13 years of new Labour 's psychodrama, I cannot remember an

act of hostility quite as naked as direct as publishing on a website

and intergovernmental letter. It suggests quite a lot of

conservatives do not think they will win next time. Why would there be a

leadership spat going on like this unless they thought there was a

vacancy? Inside the Cabinet, Theresa May is getting quite a bashing. In

the Sunday Times, someone has reported she is the date from hell.

She sidles up to people and is nakedly ambitious. I think that is

interesting. On the whole, nobody will understand the finesse

differences of opinion. It is not serious, it is not serious, it is

tactical. It'll be puzzling for most people and will probably fizzle out.

Has the Prime Minister slapped it down or will it rumble on? On the

politics of it, it will not fizzle out. What you have is Theresa May is

deadly serious about replacing David Cameron, not dislodging him but

replacing him if there is a vacancy. Michael Gove is deadly serious in

ensuring George Osborne succeeds David Cameron. It will be that

ongoing political rivalry. What is really interesting about this is the

Prime Minister is absolutely fed up with both of them. He is fed up with

Michael Gove full-size gearing of message. He had the row with Nick

Clegg and he had a row with Theresa May. He named Charles Barr and

criticised him in a lunch with the times. White brother he is the

Security adviser at the Home Office. -- he is the security advisor. He is

fed up with Theresa May for mounting an unannounced leader bid. What

separates Theresa May from Michael Gove on dealing with extremism? The

view from Michael Gove is that it shows no interest in Islamic

extremism until it manifests in violent form. Theresa May is

criticised for rolling back the programme which the previous Labour

government introduced to do with the previous Labour government

introduced to do with the Home Office has been made by other people

and made when the Home Office was not run by Theresa May but previous

home secretaries, even dating back to the Conservative government in

the 1990s. It is about the laxity of the Government. Michael Gove has

used extraordinary inflammatory language talking about draining the

swamp. I think Theresa May 's view is you can very easily inflamed

those emotions and create many more extremists the process. Michael Gove

would say that his approach is entirely consistent with the speech

the Prime Minister made to the Munich Security conference in 2011

when the Prime Minister talked about how extremists

warp the grape great religion of Islam. The Birmingham school system

is going to be one of the most reported systems in Europe.

Joining me now from Kent is Shadow Education Secretary Tristram Hunt.

Should parents of Birmingham children be worried that some of

their schools are in the grip of an Islamist takeover? I think parents

in Birmingham schools will be very disappointed by the political

infighting going on in the Government. The briefings, the

resignations, the apologies. The real apology that Michael Gove needs

to deliver it to the pupil -- the pupils and parents of Birmingham.

There was a potential threat of radicalisation. He fell to act for

four years. The Labour Party is asking, when did he know the fact

that radicalisation could have been taking place? What has been going on

for the last four years? What we in the Labour Party want to see if much

stronger systems of local oversight and accountability to situations

like this do not arise again. Is there, in your view, if some of the

Birmingham schools, an Islamist takeover? What we have seen in the

leaked Ofsted report so far is fears about cultural isolation and an

overconcentration on Islamic teaching within the curriculum. We

want young people to celebrate their cultural identity, celebrate

themselves as Muslims. We also want them to have an education which

makes them succeed in multicultural 21st-century Birmingham. We want to

be quite tough on moves towards gender segregation, a restricted

curriculum. Birmingham is a multicultural city. We need an

education system which celebrates that. What is wrong with gender

segregation? You went to an all boys school. Where you have gender

segregation, we have had a long tradition in Catholic schooling.

Where you have a state education system, which is about gender

equality between boys and girls, and there is an unofficial policy of

gender segregation, that is unacceptable. We should not be

tarring communities with the same brush in terms of radicalisation. We

do want to see a successful, multicultural education. Two years

ago, Ofsted rated Parkview as outstanding. Now it looks like

tomorrow it is going into special measures. What is it up to? I do

think there is an issue for Ofsted that you can go from outstanding to

inadequate so quickly. That is why we are asking for a new criteria to

be introduced to look at a broad and balanced curriculum. We have healthy

sex and relationship education. There is a real issue this morning

as the BBC has been reporting on the night for the Department of

as the BBC has been reporting on the Education. We are hearing that some

of those involved in the schools were not allowed to open a free

school on security grounds. They were allowed to allow one of the

schools to be taken over as an academy. We have a lack of oversight

and accountability in schools within Birmingham. What the Labour Party

wants is a local director of school standards to make sure we challenge

underperformance and make sure we get in confronting Islamic extremism

when it was in power? I was speaking to Hazel blears and she was very

clear about the prevent programme which they rolled out when in

office. A very atomised and fragmented school system where every

school is looked at from behind a desk in Whitehall and he put that

together and you do have an increased risk of chances of

radicalisation. You have attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. Was it

the same -- you attacked Mr Gove for gross negligence. We are dealing

with a government which has been in since 2010. The Government needs to

hold the executive to account. We note the Department Michael Gove was

warned by a senior and respected head teacher about fears over

radicalism. What did he know and what did he act upon? We are hearing

more reports of conversations about fears, about radicalisation, taking

over some of the governing bodies of schools. We need to know what

ministers did. Let me continue. You mention the capital to prevent

strategy. Was it gross negligence for Labour to regularly consult a

man who once headed a group dedicated to making Britain an

Islamic state and wrote a book about schools full of Taliban style

decrees. I think the events in Birmingham are enormously

significant. About the nature of multiculturalism, the nature of

education, the role of civic education, the role of faith

schools. I will say to you this morning that Birmingham City

Council, Ofsted, the Labour Party, the Department for Education were

all involved in this conversation. In 2010, ministers were warned about

potential radicalisation of schools and they fell to act. We need to

know why, for years on, they allowed this situation to exacerbate. When

you look at the record of labour and this government 's record, there are

plenty of examples where both of you fail to act. Would it not be better

to drop the party politics and get together to confront this problem

for the sake of the children? There are a number of reports going on in

Birmingham. Some are led by the city council, some by the Department for

Education. Labour MPs this morning have come forward with the Bishop of

Birmingham talking about faith in schools. If you have a minister

failing to do their job, if you have a minister being given warnings in

2010 and failing to act on them for four years, the opposition has a

role to hold the executive to account. This is about the safety

and standards of teaching for pupils in Birmingham schools. It is about a

great education for these young people so they can succeed in a

modern, multicultural Britain. Do you agree with your Shadow Cabinet

colleague, Rachel Reeves, that Labour' as core voters are

abandoning the party? She was building on what Ed said the day

after the elections in Berwick. We have to make sure those communities

who we historically represent regard Labour as having a successful

message for them. I am passionate about making sure we have great

vocational and technical education, the great academic education in our

schools. If we have more work to do to get people to the polling

booths, we must do that. We must with listen to what she says.

David Cameron has staked a lot on stopping the former PM of Luxembourg

- named by one newspaper as 'the most dangerous man in Europe'

because of his federalist views - from becoming the next president

Mr Cameron has reportedly described Jean Claude Juncker as a 'face from

the 80s who cannot solve the problems of the next five years'.

But with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel publicly backing Mr

Juncker, it's not a dead cert that Mr Cameron can stop his appointment.

This is what he had to say at the G7 summit earlier this week:

It is important that we have people running the institutions of Europe

who understand the need for change and reform. I would argue that view

is widely shared amongst other heads of government and heads of state in

the European Union. I am clear what I want to achieve for Britain's

future, to secure Britain's placed in a reformed European Union and I

have a strategy for delivering that, a strategy for dealing with an

issue which I think if we walk away from it would see Britain drift

towards the exits. We've been joined from Berlin

by the German MEP Elmar Brok who is a senior figure in the EPP - that's

the party backing Mr Juncker. He's also Chairman of the Union

of European Federalists. And in our Newcastle newsroom is

the former Conservative MEP Martin Callanan who until last month led

the European Conservatives and Reformists group in Brussels.

Welcome to you both. The United Kingdom, Sweden, Hungary,

they don't want Mr Junker, the new Italian Prime Minister doesn't look

keen either, should he bow out gracefully? First of all, he wants

to have Mr Junker but he wants to have his conditions. Will he become

president of the European Council, a high representative? It is a

discussion to be had in the next three or four weeks until the

European Parliament can elect the president of the European Council

after the proposal of the European Council, which has to be done after

consultation with the Parliament in the light of the European elections

and by a majority vote. If not Mr Junker, then who? There are many

available candidates, I am not going to mention them in front of someone

so esteemed as Elmar Brok. Give us one name that you would prefer? The

prime Minister of Sweden, Christine Lagarde, the minister from

Lithuania, these are people who have a record of old reform. Junker is

the ultimate Europe insider. We need radical inform. We need to respond

to the message the electorate gave us in the elections -- radical

reform. Junker said he had to lie in public, he allowed the security

services to conduct a dirty tricks campaign against his opponent. This

is not who we want leading the European Commission. Elmar Brok,

since the European voters have sent a message to the parliament that

they are not happy with the status quo, why would you want a man who is

synonymous with the status quo? First of all what Martin has said is

wrong. He has not done tricks against his opponents. He was very

clear on that. He is also the man who was always for changes. He made

dramatic changes as head of the Euro group, came out of the economic

crisis which was a result of the financial crisis, made politics

possible, to stop this incredible financial sector influence of our

states. I believe he is a man who works on the programme which Mrs

Merkel and others have decided in Dublin, for the reform of the

European Union, less government. But we need Europe more and he is not a

man from the 80s. He is a man of this century and in this century he

made his own policy. He is the winner of the European elections, he

has a majority will stop Mrs LANguard is not running because she

knows she will not get the majority in the European Parliament. --

Christine Lagarde is not running. It is the Council of minister is that

decides. No, the European Parliament has the final word. The European

Council can make a proposal by majority in the light of the

European elections after consultation with the European

Parliament. The council cannot get a candidate against the will of the

European Parliament. Mr Junker has a majority in the European Parliament.

Theoretically he is right, the Parliament has do vote on the

candidates proposed by the council. I want to challenge the view that

somehow he won the European elections. There is no provision for

Jean Claude Junker to stand in the elections. He is saying that the EEP

party got the most number of seats in the Parliament but none of the

electorate knew they were taking part in this election. How many

people who voted Labour in the United Kingdom realised that their

vote would count towards a German socialist to be a candidate for the

commission of presidency is a nonsensical proposal. The elections

were 28 individual elections with hundreds of parties across Europe.

To try to claim there is a democratic mandate for somebody

nobody has heard from Luxembourg to take over the commission is a

nonsense. People should know him, if I should say that ironically.

Newspapers talking about members of the family of his wife with Nazi

links... What is the answer to Martin Callinan's point? I think it

is clear that British Conservatives have no candidate because they are

not a broad European family, they have not impacted on the selection

of top candidates but it is a form of isolation of the British Tory

Party. The Prime Minister said if Mr Junker is appointed it could lead to

Britain drifting towards the EU exit, is that credible? Is it

melodramatic? It is true that we want to renegotiate the

relationship. We want some serious reform in Europe so the people who

vote in a referendum will be able to vote to stay in if that is what they

want. We need a bold reformer, somebody prepared to engage. That is

not anti the interests of the UK. We need to recognise there is a problem

with public perception of the European Union. Elmar Brok is proud

to be one of the last bastions of federalism that that is not where

most of the public opinion is in Europe. I understand why he wants

his man installed but we need to take into account the message of the

letter -- the electorate. 25% of the publishing of France were prepared

to vote for an openly racist party. We can't just ignore the signal that

the electorate were sending us. If enthusiasm for federalism was at an

all-time low, it would be a slap in the face for the voters of Europe to

have a federalist as the president, would it not? 70, 80% of the members

of the European Parliament, selected by their people, are pro-Europeans.

These are the winners of the European elections. Even in France,

a majority of voters have voted pro-European and that should be

clear, not to make this a populist thing which is not only to do with

Europe. And we want to have a Europe which is strong, the member states

should do their things. We do not want to have a European centralism,

we do not want a European state. This is not at stake. Let's talk

about the question of better governance, let's talk about what

was wrong in the past, we have to become better, to change our

programme in that question. That should be the way we lead to come to

positive results. Thank you for that. Before we go, there is a

British commissioner that needs to be appointed to Brussels, do you

like the sound of that? These are matters for the Prime Minister, I am

sure he has many excellent candidates. Do you like the sound of

it? Like previous British commissioners, Chris Patten, Neil

clinic, I have just lost an election -- Neil Kinnock for the everybody

who is asked would serve, I'm sure. Just days ago UKIP were celebrating

topping the poll in the European They're claiming they'd have had two

more MEPs and the Greens two fewer had another

party not confused the electorate. What's more UKIP say it's

the fault of the body which was set up to oversee

elections - the Electoral Commission This is a party celebrating success

at the European elections. They didn't win a single MEP but

nationally polled 250,000 votes. They are an independence from

Europe, mostly people who were once in UKIP, and that is rather the

point. They may look like capers, drink like capers, sound like capers

-- -- sound like kippers, but they are not. The name and the logo were

displayed on this banner when the party launched its campaign. UKIP

suggest the look, the wording and the inclusion of UK in now confused

voters, and are looking at rewriting such a wrong. The way that seats are

allocated in a European election under a proportional representation

system is using this formula. It was invented by a Belgian mathematician

in 1878 and it is essentially this. When all of the votes have been

tallied up, the one with the most seats gets the first MEPC in a

region. The others are allocated using votes cast divided by the

number of seats gained plus one -- first MEP seat in a region. UKIP

were concerned with South West and London. There they say, when the

last MEP seats were being allocated, if everyone who had voted for an

independence from Europe had meant to vote for UKIP and you tallied

their votes up, and added them to UKIP, UKIP would have been up one in

each region and the greens would have lost them. Whether you can

prove that voters did that by mistake is a very different matter.

UKIP may have to just chalk it up to experience. It has happened before,

back in the European elections of 1994. Then in England under the

first past the post system. This man, Richard Huggett, decided to

stand as a little Democrat and polled a significant number of

votes. The Liberal Democrat candidate at the time is now an MP.

Many people voted and afterwards realised that they had bubbly voted

for -- probably voted for a little Democrat, not a Liberal Democrat as

they had been intending to do -- bubbly voted for a literal Democrat

-- probably voted. Mr Sanders got some consolation. In

1998, laws came into rule on so-called spoiler tactics and the

Electoral Commission was established. The Electoral

Commission are based on the seventh floor of this building and they did

look into this issue prior to voting. They have given us a

statement that reveals the conclusion they came to, part of

which says, we decided that the name of the party, and its description

are sufficiently different to those registered by the UK Independence

Party, UKIP, to mean, in our opinion, that voters were not likely

to be confused if they appeared on the same ballot paper. Pretty

conclusive stuff. Back at the pub, were an independence from Europe

just being crafty, or do UKIP need to wake up and smell the flowers? We

attack them in all areas. An independent study for Anglo

Netherlands because I was involved in the Dutch -- with the Dutch

member of Parliament and the description was UK Independence now,

nobody has a monopoly on the word independence. I have been fighting

for independence since I started in 1994, before I joined UKIP. The

party tell me they will stand again at the general election next year.

The ironies not lost on them or the major parties of UKIP complaining

that a smaller party has been taking votes of them.

Joining me now to discuss this story is Gawain Towler.

He's the UKIP candidate for the South West region, who failed to get

And in our Bristol studios is the victorious Green MEP for

How many of the 23,000 votes that were cast for the Independence party

were meant for you? Impossible to tell. I want to congratulate Molly

for getting elected. They are the breaks. I do not think there is a

purpose in complaining about boats that are cast. Do you think you

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look at the

would have one otherwise? Yes, I do. You have to look boats for parties

people have not heard of and those with a long tradition that people

have heard of. I do not think there is any doubt. If you saw the spoiled

ballot papers, the amount of people who had voted at the top and the

bottom, most people are not anoraks, they say, they are the people I

want. They know what they are after. I think it is at least told. It is

said you owe your seat to And Independence Party. It is strange

for a man to say he could represent people in the south-west better than

me. There has been outpouring of delight that a Green MP has finally

been elected. A number of people have been saying they have been

voting all their lives and it is the first time they have elected

anybody. I am glad to represent them in a significant legislature. What

would you say to that? I find it strange. I am perfectly happy for

her to be elected. I feel the electoral commission has questions

to answer. But, congratulations to Molly. Why do you want an extra seat

for the Greens in the European Parliament but your national share

of the vote actually fell. We did come under pressure nationally. If

he is complaining about the role the election commission said we could

stand, the rule we were not happy with was the off, ruling which said

we were not a main party. We got significantly less media time and

that is why our belt actually fell. Not on the Daily Politics or the

that is why our belt actually fell. Sunday Politics, where you were well

represented. Was it a problem for UKIP in other parts of the country?

Only in London. What do you think happened there? Very much the same.

I do not think there is any doubt, the number of people we have had

getting in touch saying, I am really sorry, I made a mess, that they

voted for the wrong party. They are the breaks. Politics is politics.

What I would like to see and what is reasonable, and I hope Molly would

agree, there needs to be a reform - a serious reform of the Electoral

Commission. There is no appeal process. They say it is not

confusing. Lets see if she thinks that. I make it a policy never to

agree with UKIP. What is important to note, if you look at the votes

and the way the votes fell out and the seats fell out in the

south-west, it is difficult for an Electoral Commission to turn boats

into seats. UKIP got 33% of the vote and 33% of the seats.

right to complain about the amount of seats we have ended up with. So

you have complaints about the commission? Not about the commission

but I think we have to move towards a proportional system, especially in

the general election. We should be looking to have 30 or 40 seats in

the national legislator and we need to consider proportional

representation for National Election Council do you accept the ballot

paper may have a -- may have confused some people. Some people

may have been worried about the rights would move of UKIP and the

leadership of Nigel Farage and as a consequence he set up a separate

party. That is what happens in politics, especially when they are

led by demagogues, you see splitting and UKIP need to learn lessons from

that. Indeed we have seen splitting by the Greens in Brighton as well.

Do you have any legal redress to this? None. The legislation as it is

means there is no free dress. But we do feel, and I ask Molly, she says

she disagrees with everything, but it at the next election if this

party are called Google party, will she then complain if they are

excepted? There needs to be some level of appeal for electoral

commission decisions. Without that one wonders what is going on. We

have an organisation with enormous power and influence which was set up

to stop this sort of thing going on as the Liberal Democrats made clear.

It has failed in the Tower Hamlets and to have failed over postal

votes, it has failed over everything it is supposed to do. Let me go back

to the final point, should there be a right of appeal to the rulings of

the Electoral Commission? You need to have an authoritative body to

make decisions in this area and we have a commission. This is an

outbreak of soda loser from UKIP. I am delighted I will be able to

represent the people from the south-west. Should there be a right

of appeal as a matter of principle? I do not think you should have a

right of appeal, no. We will leave it there. You are watching Sunday

Politics, we are saying goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us for

Sunday Politics in Scotland. Good morning and welcome to

Sunday Politics Scotland. The former Home Secretary, Lord

Reid, tells a referendum meeting that the measure of your support

for Scotland is not waving the flag, but voting No in the country's best

interests. Acting smart - the technology

that will revolutionise service John Reid, the former Cabinet

minister and so-called Labour "big beast", has made his first

foray into the referendum debate. Speaking at a Better Together event

yesterday, he accused Nationalists of denying there were any risks

in voting yes to independence. In a moment, we will speak to him

live and ask why he has decided now Tony Blair's troubleshooter. The Man

Of Steel who is at the heart of government. Lord Reid is stepping

into the referendum campaign. He has given his first speech as part of

Better Together, refuting the suggestion that Scots are now are

less patriotic. Let us say clearly that no side in this campaign has a

monopoly on patches to them. I make that absolutely plain. -- on

patriotism. It would be helpful if the First Minister made that equally

plain because he is the First Minister of Scotland, not of the

Scottish nationalist party. Pro-Union campaigners welcome his

involvement. His refutation precedes them. Perhaps it was political skill

which gained him plaudits as Home Secretary and defence secretary.

However, political opponents arguing for a yes vote think he will not be

an asset. John Reid is was a risk when it comes to the SNP in Scottish

politics. He is a big beast, yes. He's not like Gordon Brown. I am

amazed Gordon Brown has proved so positive. John Reid never plays

positive. My worry, if I was in the no campaign, I would wonder if he

would put a bit wrong. So a man who has fought plenty of political

battles now has another one on his hands, the Better Together fight to

save the union. Lord Reid is here now. The papers this morning, you

are being criticised by the SNP and others in the Yes Campaign for your

remarks about D-Day yesterday. They are saying you try to politicise it,

what is your response? My response is it is nonsense. I am glad you

mentioned it because the leader article said that the SNP's response

on this was not only naive but foolish because if history has no

point, then what are we to do with that? The point of history is to

inform the future. As we remember, the great things we have done

together as a country, the Scots, Welsh, Irish and English, the

greatest of those was surely the defeat of fascism, standing alone

against fascism and National Socialism and to remember that as an

emotional aspect of the United Kingdom's history is perfectly

legitimate. We heard you talking about Alex Salmond in the clip. You

think people who want to vote no every bit as Scottish as people who

want to vote. You said Alex Salmond should publicly intervene and state

this. Hang on. Perhaps I have missed something, but I am not sure Alex

Salmond has ever suggested that people love said they would vote no

is any less Scottish. I did not say he had at that hour atmospherics out

there, especially on digital media will stop those who are sending out

tweets on the internet which implies that if you do not vote for

separation, somehow you are less... Alex Salmond is the First Minister

and he is leading this campaign. I want him to recognise the simple

fact that it demeans the debate which is a crucial debate to allow

the implication of innuendo that people who vote no to keep Scotland

in the United Kingdom are somehow less Scottish. I'm saying plainly

that is not true. What he wants him to do, make a public statement? That

with the help. Along the lines of what you have just said? If it is

noncontroversial, that would be helpful. People on the other side of

the beastly things about nationalism all the time and nobody calls on Ed

Miliband David Cameron to make at public statement. They're always

calls to make public statements. You're making an issue about the

simple proposition. We should not doubt the sincerity of any Scottish

person or anyone who is taking part in this referendum as regards their

love of Scotland. I speak as a Scotsman and somebody who has been

born, bred and lived in Scotland. Somebody who has committed my life

to Scotland. You would like a statement from Alex Salmond seeing

which are said? Let me finish. There are many millions of people in this

country who not only feel Scottish but think that the interests of

Scotland are better protected by remaining inside the United

Kingdom. They are every bit as patriotically those who want to vote

yes. All right. The sterling rally you spoke at was organised by Better

Together, would you be happy to sit sheer platform with the

Conservatives on the Better Together Campaign? -- to shape our platform.

Yes, I have done so before, for instance over the fight for

Ravenscraig. We extended its life for years. I marched to London with

people whose views I did not share, including the SNP and Tories of the

time to save the Ravenscraig steelworks. If it was important

enough to do just steelworks, how much more important is it for the

future of our country to rise above petty personal difference and any

political differences and fight for the welfare of Scotland. Gordon

Brown criticised the way the Coalition Government have handled

the currency this week. He said, the wave it currency argument was put by

the government was given Scotland versus Britain which means we

need... Is the only propaganda which comes from the Conservatives is

Britain says no, there is bound to be a reaction in Scotland. I'm not

going to comment on what Gordon said. Can Scotland go it alone, yes

it can, doesn't have the right to do so? Yes. The question in dispute

which people have to decide in September is in what conditions

Scotland would be if it went down that road. In my view, in terms of

the advantages of the union, economic and Vantage, economic

growth, individual ad vantage and growth... In terms of separation,

the risks are issued. I think the government has every right to rule

any part of the United Kingdom. I am giving you my view on the Better

Together Campaign. I am prepared to work with anybody over and above any

personal and political differences. I do not think the public are

astonished by this. I think the government would like to see

politicians put aside personal differences more often. This is such

a crucial issue for the future that I think all of us should get

together. When Gordon Brown says the trouble with David, -- David Cameron

and George Osborne, they put Scotland against Britain, you seem

to be with Cameron and Osborne and disagree with Gordon Brown? I am not

disagreeing with any of them. I am saying that whenever you rise above

party differences and have an issue as crucial as this, you must rise

above party differences, of course others will try to rise -- intervene

and point out differences. On the question of the future of Scotland,

there is a huge degree of agreement among political parties and among

people in Scotland. You said yesterday that you did not think

Better Together had done everything right. What have we done wrong? I

don't think any human being does everything right or any

organisation. You actually have something specific in mind? I did

not have anything specific in mind. I just would not say we have

everything right and we can always improve. Nobody listening to this

thinks that is an outstandingly exceptional and two together, it is

common sense. Do you think the Yes Campaign will win? I do not think

it, but it is all was possible, in politics anything is possible. Over

the next 100 days, there will be three issues which will decide this.

One is economic and material advantages to being part of the UK,

secondly the risk of separation, whether it is pensions, Europe, the

corn -- the economy, and suddenly the emotional argument. There are

many people who have emotional connections because of the history

and culture and what we have done together in Britain. There is an

argument of the head and an argument of the heart. Over the next few

weeks I think they will come together. Let us say that is a small

majority for independence, is that it, completely it. Let us say that

you are right, there is no currency union despite what Alex Salmond

says, there are problems with Scotland's getting into the European

Union in the short-term. One year later and people are saying, we

voted for this was the false perspective, will you be saying, I

told you so? Is there any way back? I will not be saying that but I do

not think there is any way back. Alex Salmond said this morning this

is a once in a generation thing, I agree with him. But it is a

everything. You would agree with that? Yes, it is a further thing.

Certainly in our lifetimes. This is why it is crucial to examine the

risks. That is not negative. I know Alex Salmond keeps saying do not ask

about the currency, the economy because that is negative. It is not

negative. We are brought up to believe look before you leap. A

businessman known jazz to have risk assessment for the future. You would

never set out on a journey without knowing you had the money and the

transport for it. You are making car and transport analogies, what is

going on? You suggest you were brought into a appeal to the male

working-class voters, I do not know if that is true but they look like

they would like to vote yes, so why do you think that is, given that

these are people who tend to vote Labour in elections? I am not sure

you are correct. The latest definitive Paul was done at the

beginning of this week by your competitors television programme, it

said 34% for the yes vote. You go it was 37% so there has been a

reduction. I am asking specifically about male working-class voters, the

other was likely to vote yes, I am dubious as to why you think that is?

I think there is equal concern across all classes, both sexes, all

parts of the country about the risks. The majority of people across

all of those classes and every part of the country who are worried about

that and think we had better stay with the best of both worlds which

we have at the moment. As Scottish Parliament deciding Scottish affairs

and the United Kingdom Parliament. I do not think at this stage you can

make that decision for them. Thank you very much indeed.

Described as world-leading by academics in San Francisco,

a Glasgow-run technology project could revolutionise the way councils

across the country manage services. The Glasgow Future Cities Project

began in 2012. It uses hi-tech kit to help increase safety

on the city's streets and open up council-held data to the public.

But what has it achieved so far and how will it continue

City life only big-screen. This is Glasgow 's smarter future and it is

happening now. Smart city one which integrates technologies and helps

best provide its services. A smart city can take some of our older

thinking and produces a much more efficient and effective way of

delivering services. " fought off competition from 29 other cities to

highlight this technology. The using software to map and Jake the

movements of people throughout the city. I think people feel a lot

safer. The ball can also get around the city better because of the

transport improvements. We can also see the likes of health and

education benefits. Around one half of the ?24 million budget has been

spent on this information centre -- CCTV cameras around the city coming

together. But came and safety are not the only focus. The project is

the first of its kind to open up data set to the public, sharing

anonymous data online. Intended to make the council more transparent

and save money on dealing with Freedom of information requests,

some see changing the old church of information handling is not without

its challenging. The whole project is basically sending shivers down

the spine of most local authorities. It is enabling the reformation of

things which happen under the bonnet with everyone else. They are trying

to engage citizens to be more active to shear for the no boat the city

and other citizens. We have got to the stage where we can provide tools

and technology to capture technology and integrate it with what the

council already holds. The approach has caught the attention of

academics around the world. With the government funded period coming to

an end, Private investment will be necessary for it to continue.

Investment is crucial. We need to continue to raise the money to

operate. Cycling will likes of claim on dealing with emergencies, things

people the care about. Clearly, things like energy and

communications, these are critical services. I think the freeze Future

Cities Project is possibly not too helpful, because it makes people

think of the science-fiction film. But I think we will see the benefit

of this time. Political will and financial backing will be crucial

for the next of this project, with the outcome being watched much for

the rocky roads in Glasgow itself. Richard, letters look at some of the

technology first. How does this work? Let us talk about intelligence

streetlights, of which no that there is a fate breaking out under them,

just tell it what actually happens? Every lighting column in the EEA is

connected to the intimate, essentially. They can communicate

with the operations centre that use. They have sensors into them. On the

likes of bicycle path is, you can see that when someone is moving

along it, the lighting would move up as they approach and in them and

hang them, so you are not wasting energy. The question of unusual

activity, if you are listening to sound or watching pictures, is there

a problem? Is it just people having a good NATO or as something more

serious about to develop? You can feed that information in and you can

do the lights of raising the lighting any questionable activity,

which could be enough to calm a situation down. So, the street lamps

would await the police if this continued? Probably not that we

directly, but it would let the communications centre that something

unusual was going on and should maybe be looked at. Then, an

appropriate response could be made. One of the big issues in Glasgow are

health outcomes and one of the things which stop people walking and

cycling is that they are concerned about their own safety. Things you

can do to make people fear more confident using intelligent

lighting, it helps the people use the city to greater advantage. It

sounds great, but an obvious problem with people having had a view jinx

and they are out singing and then the police suddenly all flooding. I

do not think it would be as dramatic as that. I think you would raise the

level of lighting, which can have a quiet in effect, but also, you would

be able to notice there was something needing looking at. You do

not have to scramble the police to that. You can look at the situation

first. Although Glasgow is the forerunner of this, you have been

involved in something similar? Yes, I have been working with local

authorities in Scotland on a smaller scale we're we have been putting in

technology in the local authorities to provide useful digital services,

particularly with Edinburgh and Aberdeen. Sorry, to me, this is

gobbledygook. If you are a citizen, what difference do you notice? You

are able to use a digital mobile service which can make life in a

local basis more useful. So it is an application on your phone. What does

it do? Say, is on a simple level, in the likes of Aberdeen, we have a

transport application that provides all up to date information about

situations with local transport. Also, you may be able to see that

there is also an updated service, whereby, if some of the information

is wrong, a member of the public could get back in touch and the

information within change. It is accessible and useful. How many

areas as this now available on? We are working with for local

authorities in are working with for local

authorities Scotland and also with local authorities in New York. --

Europe. The money for the Glasgow project comes to an end in Glasgow

comes to an end in August, so what happens after that? That was

essentially for the setup and development of the programmes. A key

reason behind this is that this is one of four demonstrations around

the United Kingdom. This comes out of the study of 29 cities about what

they could deliver. If you take what will happen next, we have the

Commonwealth Games, we can monitor what is happening, look at all the

data from the communications centre. We will be able to see whether the

use of city vehicles is more efficient. We will monitor this for

some years to come. This has been built into the plans of Glasgow City

Council for the future. This is how the imagine the future to be. A lot

of people will be watching, I am slightly uneasy about this. We worry

about security on the Internet about who might be looking in and getting

information about us and know they may be worrying about walking down

the street. We are talking about non-contravention none controversial

public data. Think how useful data is to your life. I am able to knows

whether or not a bus is going to arrive. There is a lot of data

information which is really useful to the general public and the more

that you use people to support their data to add value to it, the more

alive it becomes and the more relevant it becomes. Things like bus

timetables, they are no longer timetables in this sensitive printed

on pages. You will be able to get up-to-date information to find out

what has happened to your bus in the last few minutes? Yes. The London

transport network data is very good in that respect, letting people know

to within a couple of minutes when the underground is going to arrive.

How do you see the development of this in the future? I think we could

get people involved in completely transform how people move to work,

home shopping works and how we could see big transformations in the likes

of health care and health outcomes. You are watching Sunday Politics

Scotland. Let us cross now Good afternoon. Tomorrow marks

the start of the 100-day countdown On the Andrew Marr Show today

First Minister Alex Salmond said referendums on the constitution were

"once in a political generation" and this was the first democratic,

consented opportunity to vote But speaking on this programme,

the former Labour cabinet minister Lord Reid said Scots

must vote against independence. One person has died in a house fire

in Watten on the outskirts of Wick. Fire crews were called to the

property before eight o'clock this morning, but when they

arrived, the blaze had burnt out. A search is underway in Nairn for a

man thought to have been swept away Police were called

to the River Nairn, near the harbour of the Highlands town just before

eleven o'clock. Two men were in the water, with one attempting to

rescue the other, but only one man managed to get out. Search teams

are now checking the coastline A list of companies who have

been fined by the UK government for failing to pay the minimum wage

has been published. In total 25 firms owed workers

more than ?43,000 in arrears. Cargilfield School in

Edinburgh left a worker almost ?4,000 out of pocket.

Ministers say they have quadrupled financial penalties and plan

to change the law Good afternoon. There will be some

showers this afternoon, but also some brighter weather. The showers

could be heavy at times, possibly thundery at times. But I think they

will be mainly a feature on the higher ground.

It will feel very one today, with high temperatures of 22 degrees

Celsius. That is it for now, I will

hand you back to Gordon. Thanks, Andrew. Now, in a moment,

we will be discussing the big events coming up this week, but first,

let us take a look back at The Conservatives unveiled their

plans for further revolution in the event of a

The Conservatives unveiled their plans for further normal vote in the

independence referendum. Women who received injuries after getting

breast implants have been petitioning the Scottish Parliament.

An enquiry has been launched into what went wrong with the Edinburgh

trams project. The United Kingdom has been a next ordinary partner to

others. From the outside at least, it looks as if things have worked

very well. And the garment been criticised for using figures of

legal to criticised for using figures of

legal emphasise the stands against independence. The Scottish National

party called it childish and the company itself has forced the

government to take down the advert because of a breach of copyright.

Joining me now are the former Labour MSP Pauline McNeill and Andrew

Wilson, who is a newspaper columnist and a former SNP MSP.

Joining me now are the former Labour MSP Pauline McNeill and

Are you quaking about what John Reid said. I do not think it plays into

the modern world to relate D-Day to the Olympics. His second point was a

reasonable one, which was that no one has a monopoly on patriotism.

You can vote no and failed Scottish and you can celebrate 200 years of

British heritage and vote yes. 200,000 Irish soldiers who served in

the first wall for I know less British than those who were serving.

They were able to become an independent country. -- in the First

World War. We should look forward. What do you make of this mini row?

Regarding D-Day, John Reid's central point what you can still vote no and

BP tree or two. Labour have been firing on all cylinders this week.

-- and BP tree or ticks. Rover has been very positive. John Reid has

given us his point of view. I do jumping with joy to see John Reid

get involved? I think he has an appeal to voters. There was talk

that he was brought in for male working-class voters, that makes

sense, doesn't it? I'll Labour's big hitters are getting involved. It is

100 days or so. There is nothing new for John Reid having a speech at a

rally. The central message was that no side can claim patriotism for

whichever way you vote. It was an important message. John Reid is

appealing to a certain section of voters. People are voting no offer

all sorts of reasons. Historical reasons and identity questions are

important for the no campaign. Alistair Darling is dealing with the

business case and Gordon Brown was dealing with social justice this

week. Now, the Sunday Herald said there is 100 days to go until the

referendum. Andrew Wilson, your side of the argument needs something

transformational, doesn't it? What could that be? I think people are

now beginning to make their minds up. There is a host of people who

are undecided who are being focused. It is a personal choice. Do we trust

ourselves to do a better job? When you look at the history of

international endeavour, did we approve of Lord Reid and his

government when we went into Iraq for instance? Do you believe the Yes

Campaign can win by what you're talking about, by undecided people

changing their minds? Do you think the Yes Campaign itself has come up

with something different? No, I think the Yes Campaign has to stick

to being positive and ambitious for their country. We have an argument

which says Scotland cannot and another which says Scotland can. It

is about our personal contribution to the future, we will be better

placed to govern ourselves. You are lucky if the vote in London reflects

the vote in Scotland. This is true of social welfare reform,

strengthening the economy, as I said. You would not advise the Yes

Campaign to do anything different? No, I think the focus remains as it

is. Stay positive. Draw comparisons with the reality of life in Britain

as it is just now. It does not feel, from inside Scotland, that

everything is OK. That is too much needing fixed. The question is,

what's to be fixed, do we fix it ourselves let others do so? Do you

think the Better Together Campaign should change? I think Labour have

to take a more forward role and that is what you are now seeing for the

no campaign. That is what happened. We have 100 days to go. You want

more Labour Party, less Better Together? Yes. We have had Gordon

Brown this week and that has been very important for Labour voters who

are undecided. I think there is recognised by Better Together. You

clearly recognise that your side of the argument has a problem with

Labour voters. John Reid did not want to recognise that. It is male

working-class in certain regions... In the same way that the Yes

Campaign has a problem with women voters. They need to address the

issue of women voters. The reasons why women might want to vote yes.

How do you address that problem about male working-class voters? Do

you just get John Reid to go and tell them or what? We need to get

down to the nitty-gritty of the argument and the fact that people

want to have about the difference between voting yes and no. With a

hundred days to go, Jim Sillars said today this campaign will be lost or

won on the doorsteps and in the working-class communities. I agree

with that. It is also about the presentation of the arguments. Do

you agree with that? That it will be won or lost in working-class areas?

One of the modern phenomena of politics is that they do not vote in

the numbers that they should. If they do in this referendum, if they

take this opportunity to vote, it could be transformational. There is

a huge opportunity for a lot of people. But is there a particular

opportunity in working-class areas for the Yes Campaign? That is what I

was trying to see, where the turnout is not what we would want it to be

in normal elections, there is a great opportunity for reform and

change and making the system of how we govern ourselves better. That is

the core message. Either things are done to you or you do them

yourselves. Much better to do it yourself in a time of crisis like

this. Sorry to stop you. We have to leave it there. That's all from us

this week. Goodbye.