Browse content similar to 29/06/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
No surprise that Cameron didn't get his way at the European summit. | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
But does it mean Britain has just moved closer to the EU exit? | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
Doctors want to ban smoking outright. | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
or the health lobby's secret plan all along? We'll debate. | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
Too white, too male? We've been crunching the numbers to find out | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
whether Parliament's about to become more like the country. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
Lives could have been saved if the RAF's Tornado fleet had | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
according to the official investigation. | :01:13. | :01:26. | |
And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
panel in the business Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh. | :01:31. | :01:41. | |
They've had their usual cognac, or Juncker as it's known in | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Luxembourg, for breakfast and will be tweeting under the influence. | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
He's a boozing, chain-smoking, millionaire bon viveur who's made | :01:48. | :01:49. | |
it big in the world of European politic. | :01:50. | :01:51. | |
I speak of Jean-Claude Juncker, the former Prime Minister of Luxembourg | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
He'll soon be President of the European Commission, | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
He wasn't David Cameron's choice of course. | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
But those the PM thought were his allies deserted him and he ended up | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Fedrealist Juncker. | :02:09. | :02:23. | |
-- on the wrong end of a 26-2 vote in favour of Arch-Federalist | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
So where does this leave Mr Cameron's hopes | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
of major reform and repatriation of EU powers back to the UK? | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
Let's speak to his Europe Minister David Lidington. | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
Welcome to the programme. The Prime Minister says that now with Mr | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
Juncker at the helm, the battle to keep Britain in the EU has got | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
harder. In what way has it got harder? For two reasons. The | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
majority of the leaders have accepted the process that shifts | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
power, it will not careful, from the elected heads of government right | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
cross Europe to the party bosses, the faction leaders in the European | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
Parliament and and the disaffection was made clear in many European | :03:10. | :03:18. | |
countries. Mr Juncker had a distinguished period as head of | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Luxembourg, and was not a known reformer, but we have to judge on | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
how he leads the commission and there were some elements in the | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
mandate that the heads of government gave this week to the new incoming | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
European Commission that I think are cautiously encouraging for us. The | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Prime Minister talked about those that not everybody wants to | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
integrate and to the same extent and speed. Let me just interrupt you. | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
What is new about saying that Europe can go closer to closer union at | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
different speeds? That has always been the case. It's nothing new. | :03:54. | :04:01. | |
Indeed there are precedents, and they are good examples of the | :04:02. | :04:11. | |
approach as part of the course and one of the elements that the Prime | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
Minister is taking forward in the strategy is to get general | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
acceptance that while we agree that most of the partners have agreed to | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
the single currency will want to press forward with closer | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
integration of their economic and tax policies, but not every country | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
in the EU is going to want to do that. We have to see the pattern | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
that has grown up enough to recognise there is a diverse EU with | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
28 member states and more in the future. We won't all integrate the | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
extent. It is a matter of a pattern that is differentiation and | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
integration. I understand that. John Major used to call it variable | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
geometry, and other phrases nobody used to understand, but the point is | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
that you're back benches don't want any union at any speed, even in the | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
slow lane. They want to go in the other direction. It depends which | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
backbencher you talk to. There's a diverse range of views. I think that | :05:10. | :05:22. | |
there is acceptance that the core of the Prime Minister's approaches to | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
seek reform of the European Union, for renegotiation after the | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
election, then put it to the British people to decide. It won't be the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
British government or ministers that take the final decision, it's the | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
British people, provided they are a Conservative government, who will | :05:38. | :05:39. | |
take the decision on the basis of the reforms that David Cameron | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
secures whether they want to stay in or not. Is there more of a chance, | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
not a certainty or probability, but at least more of a chance that with | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Mr Juncker in that position of Britain leaving the EU? I don't | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
think we can say that at the moment. I think we can say that the task of | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
reform looks harder than it did a couple of weeks ago. But we have do | :06:03. | :06:11. | |
put Mr Juncker to the test. I do think he would want his commission | :06:12. | :06:23. | |
to be marked and I think that there is, and I find this in numbers | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
around Europe, and there is a growing recognition that things | :06:29. | :06:31. | |
cannot go on as they have been. Europe, economically, is in danger | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
of losing a lot of ground will stop millions of youngsters are out of | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
work already that reform. There is real anxiety and a number of | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
countries now about the extent to which opinion polls and election | :06:44. | :06:45. | |
results are showing a shift of support to both left and right wing | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
parties, sometimes outright neofascist movements, expressing | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
real content and resentment at Howard in touch -- how out of touch | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
decisions have become. You say you are sensing anxiety about the | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
condition of Europe, so why did they choose Mr Juncker then? You would | :07:05. | :07:10. | |
have to put that question to some of the heads of European government. | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
Clearly there were a number for whom domestic politics played a big role | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
in the eventual decision that they took. There were some who had signed | :07:21. | :07:28. | |
up to the lead candidate process and felt they could not back away from | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
that, whatever their private feelings might have been, but I | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
think the PM was right to say that this was a matter of principle and | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
it shouldn't just be left as a stitch up by the European Parliament | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
to tell us what they do. He said, I can't agree to pretend to acquiesce. | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
They have to make the opposition clear that go on with reform. Are | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
the current terms of membership for us unacceptable? The current terms | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
of the membership are very far from perfect. Are they unacceptable? The | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
current terms are certainly not ones that I feel comfortable with. The | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
Prime Minister described them as unacceptable. Do you think they are? | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
We look at the views of the British people at the moment. If you look at | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
the polling at the moment, the evidence is that people are split on | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
whether they think membership is a good thing. I'm asking what you | :08:28. | :08:37. | |
think. David Cameron wants to in -- endorse changes in our interest, but | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
also because the biggest market is going to suffer if they don't | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
challenge -- grasp the challenge of political and economic reform. | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
Newsnight, Friday night, Malcolm Rifkind the former Secretary of | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
State said to me that even if the choice was to stay in on the | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
existing terms, he would vote to stay in on the existing terms. He | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
doesn't necessarily like them, but he would vote to stay in. That is | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
the authentic voice of the Foreign Office, isn't it? That is the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
position of your department. Is it your position? Malcolm Rifkind is a | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
distinguished and independent minded backbencher. He's not in government | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
now. But that is your position. No, the position of the government and | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
the Conservative Party in the government is that we believe that | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
important changes, both economic and political reforms, are necessary and | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
that they are attainable in our interest and those of Europe as a | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
whole. Would you vote to stay in on the existing terms? That's not going | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
to be a question that the referendum. Really? I know that in | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
2017 Europe is going to look rather different to how it looks today. For | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
one thing our colleagues in the Eurozone will want and need to press | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
ahead with closer integration. That, in our view, needs to be done | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
in a way that fully respects the rights of those of us who remain | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
outside. Variable geometry, tackling things like the abuse of freedom of | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
migration. Those are all in the conclusions from the leader this | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
week and we should welcome that. Very briefly, finally, when will | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
you, as a government, give us the negotiating position of the | :10:18. | :10:20. | |
government? Will you give us what you hope to achieve before the | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
election or not? David Cameron set out very clearly in his Bloomberg | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
speech that he wanted a Europe that was more democratically accountable, | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
more flexible, more at it -- economically competitive. That is | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
all very general. When will you lay out the negotiating position? It's | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
not general. It is very far from general. We have seen evidence in | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
the successful cut of the European budget, the reform of fisheries, | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
those reforms have started to take effect. We have won some victories | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
and I'm sure the Prime Minister, as we get towards the general election, | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
will want to make clear what the Conservative Party position is, and | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
perhaps other political leaders will do the same for their party. Thank | :11:05. | :11:12. | |
you for joining us this morning. The harsh reality of this is that there | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
is a yawning gap between what the Prime Minister can hope to bring | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
back and what will satisfy his Conservative backbenchers. Yes, I | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
think the Parliamentary Conservative Party is divided into three parts, | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
those who would vote to leave the EU regardless, those who would stay | :11:30. | :11:32. | |
regardless, and a huge middle ground of people who want to stay in on | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
renegotiated terms. These are not three equal parts. Those who would | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
vote to stay in regardless are smaller and smaller. Compared to 20 | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
years ago, tiny. But the people in the middle, generally, would only | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
stay in if you secure a renegotiation that will not be | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
re-secured. In other words, they are de facto, out by 2017 and the | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
referendum. This whole saga of the recent weeks has been the single | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
biggest economy in foreign policy under this government. That's not | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
what the voters think. -- single biggest ignominy. I mean the failure | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
to secure the target. The opinion polls show that standing up against | :12:13. | :12:17. | |
Mr Juncker has proved rather popular. I suggest that is not Mr | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
Cameron's problem. His problem is that, if in the end he gets only | :12:22. | :12:24. | |
because Medic changes, and if he says he still thinks that with these | :12:25. | :12:30. | |
changes -- cosmetic changes. And he says that they should stay in, that | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
would split the Tory party wide open. Eurosceptics say would be the | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
biggest split since the corn laws. He wants to protect the position of | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
coming out, and you might get that. He wants to crack down on abuse of | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
benefits, and he might get that. He wants to restrict freedom of | :12:52. | :12:53. | |
movement for future member states, and that's difficult, because it is | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
a treaty change. And he wants to deal with closer union, but that is | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
also treaty change. In the Council conclusions, David Cameron was | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
encouraged because it said, let's look at closer union, but it did not | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
say it would reform. All it said was ever closer union can be interpreted | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
in different ways. In other words, we're not going to change it. The | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
fundamental problem the David Cameron was that two years ago, when | :13:18. | :13:28. | |
he vetoed the fiscal compact, that showed Angela Merkel was unwilling | :13:29. | :13:30. | |
to help them and what happened in the last two weeks was that Angela | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
Merkel was unable to help him. There is not a single leader of the | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
European Union that once Juncker as president, and he doesn't want it, | :13:37. | :13:39. | |
he wants the note take a job at the European Council. But there was this | :13:40. | :13:41. | |
basic stitch up by the European basic stitch up by the European | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
Parliament that meant he was presented, and when Angela Merkel | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
put the question over his head there was a huge backlash in Germany and | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
she was unable to deliver. I understand that, but I'm looking | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
forward to Mr Cameron's predicament. I don't know how he squares the | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
circle. It seems inconceivable that he can bring back enough from | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
Brussels to satisfy his backbenchers. No, you can't. Most of | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
them fundamentally want out. They don't want to be persuaded by | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
renegotiations. Where it's hard to draw conclusions from the polling is | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
that if you ask people question that sounds like, do you like the fact | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
that our Prime Minister has gone to Brussels and stuck it to the man, | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
they say yes, but how many people will go to the voting booths and put | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
their cross in the box based on Europe? We know mostly voters care | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
about Europe as a proxy for immigration fears. In ten people in | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
this country could not tell you who John Claude Juncker is Angela Weir | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
is replacing. -- and who he is replacing. | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
And I'm joined in the studio now by arch-Eurosceptic Conservative MEP, | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
Daniel Hannan and from Strasbourg by staunch European and former Liberal | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
war? His declared objectives would leave Britain still in the common | :14:54. | :15:14. | |
agricultural policy, the common foreign policy, the European arrest | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
warrant, so the negotiating aims which we just heard Nick setting out | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
wouldn't fundamentally change anything. It would be easy for the | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
Government to declare war on any of these things. The danger from your | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
point of view as someone who wants to stay in is that if David Cameron | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
only gets cosmetic changes, the chance of getting the vote to leave | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
the European Union increases, doesn't it? Hypothetically it | :15:46. | :15:54. | |
probably does but we have two big things to get through first in | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
domestic politics before we even reach a negotiation. One is are we | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
going to have the United Kingdom this time next year following the | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
referendum in Scotland? Secondly, are the Conservatives after the | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
general election next year going to be in a position to pursue a | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
negotiation? In other words are they going to be a majority government or | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
even a minority government? For the sake of this morning let's assume | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
the answer to both is yes, the UK stays intact and against the polls | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
they were saying this morning, David Cameron forms an overall majority | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
after the election. There is a danger, if he doesn't bring much | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
back, that people will vote yes, correct? There is that danger and I | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
see a lot of the British press comment this morning saying this | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
could be a rerun of the Harold Wilson like negotiation of the | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
1970s, a bit cosmetic but enough to say we have got new terms and you | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
should go with it. I think what is different however, and this is | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
really an appeal if you like, it cannot just be left to the Liberal | :17:12. | :17:13. | |
Democrats and coalition government cannot just be left to the Liberal | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
to make this case on our Rome. A lot of interest groups across the land | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
will have to start being prepared to put their head above the parapet on | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
the fundamental - do you want Britain to remain in the European | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
Union? Yes or no? Are you willing to put your public reputations on the | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
line? We are not getting enough of that at the moment and it is getting | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
dangerously close to closing time. Daniel Hannan, David Cameron will | :17:43. | :17:53. | |
not get away with this, will he? It will be an acceptable to his party. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
If it is an acceptable to Tory backbenchers it is because it is | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
working and they are reflecting what their constituents say. A majority | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
of people in the country are unhappy with the present terms. They can see | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
there is a huge wide world beyond the oceans and we have confined | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
ourselves to this small trade bloc. There is a huge debate to be had | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
about whether we could be doing better outside. It is not danger, it | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
is democracy, trusting people. If the only person offering a | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
referendum at the moment is the Prime Minister, it has serious | :18:35. | :18:39. | |
consequences for his party, your party, that's what I'm talking | :18:40. | :18:45. | |
about. I am very proud of being part of the party that is trusting people | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
to offer this. If he only gets cosmetic changes he cannot carry his | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
party. But ultimately it will not be his party, it is the electorate as a | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
whole that has to decide whether the changes are substantive. Everything | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
we have been hearing just now is about staying out of future | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
integration, protecting the role of the non-euro countries. People are | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
upset about what is going on today with the EU. They can see laws being | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
passed by people they cannot vote for, friendships overseas are | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
prejudiced, and they conceive that the European Union has just put in | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
charge in the top slot somebody who wants a United States of Europe into | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
which we will eventually be dragged into as some kind of Providence. | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
Jean-Claude Juncker is a Federalist, you are Federalist, why did the Lib | :19:40. | :19:49. | |
Dems oppose him? We shared the view that whilst you take account of what | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
the members of the European Parliament say, ultimately the | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
choice of the presidency in the commission should be the political | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
leaders, the governmental leaders at a national level, and that's why we | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
went down the route we did. It was more to do with the system than the | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
individual. Although I would say that you need to bear in mind, I | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
mean Daniel, I respect him personally and the integrity of his | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
views, as I think he does mine, but to dismiss the European Union as a | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
small trading block globally, when you have got the United States of | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
America, China and other countries acknowledging its importance, it is | :20:34. | :20:43. | |
really Walter Mitty land. Are we closer than... Daniel Hannan, are we | :20:44. | :20:56. | |
closer to an exit after what happened last week? Yes, because the | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
idea that we could get substantive reforms, gets a mythic and powers | :21:02. | :21:11. | |
back and be within a looser, more flexible European Union has plainly | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
been closed off. We have to face up to the actual European Union that | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
has taken shape on our doorstep. Are we going to be part of that or are | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
we going to have a much more semidetached, looser relationship | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
with it which we can either achieve via a unilateral system of power or | :21:34. | :21:45. | |
another way. This debate is never-ending, it is going on and on | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
and has bedevilled British prime ministers for as long as I can | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
remember. Shouldn't the Lib Dems change their stance on the | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
referendum yet again let's just have this in-out referendum and have it | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
sided one way or another? Our position remains clear. If there is | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
a constitutional issue put before us in terms of treaty changes then we | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
will have a referendum. Why not now? I am probably the wrong person to | :22:18. | :22:27. | |
ask because I argued and voted for a referendum on Maastricht because I | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
thought that was a constitutional treaty. Anything that makes the | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
Queen a citizen of the European Union surely has constitutional | :22:36. | :22:42. | |
implications. Anyway, 20 years on we are where we are and we need to | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
established common vocabulary. You talk about federalism. What do we | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
mean? Most of the people operating in the European Parliament and the | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
institution across the road, the Council of Europe, they mean by | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
federalism decentralisation of powers, not a Brussels superstate | :23:04. | :23:10. | |
but actually the kind of decentralisation that maintains | :23:11. | :23:13. | |
national characteristics and pools resources and sovereignty where it | :23:14. | :23:23. | |
makes sense. Mr Juncker, who is now going to be in charge of the | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
Brussels commission, he believes in a single EU reform policy, an EU | :23:27. | :23:37. | |
wide minimum wage and EU wide taxes. You said this week that you | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
liked the sound of Juncker federalism. Does that sound good to | :23:42. | :23:48. | |
you? No, and I think the new president of the commission will be | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
disappointed if he puts forward these views because although we only | :23:53. | :23:58. | |
had Hungary voting with us, I think if you go to other countries, | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
France, Poland, Scandinavia, they are not going to buy that kind of | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
menu. What they mean by federalism is the continental concept, also the | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
North American concept, that we can sit very happily... They have an | :24:16. | :24:23. | |
army, a federal police force, federal taxation. Yes, but in terms | :24:24. | :24:32. | |
of the political institutions which is what we are discussing here, you | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
can have the supranational, the European level, whilst still having | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
the very vibrant national, and indeed as we are practising in the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
United Kingdom the subnational. A very brief final word from you, | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
Daniel. That is ultimately going to be the choice. The European Union is | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
an evolving dynamic, we can see the direction it is going in. Do we want | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
to be part of that? I suspect Charles Kennedy would have loved a | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
referendum. I cannot help but notice his party is going downhill since he | :25:08. | :25:22. | |
was running it. It is illegal to light up in the workplace, pubs and | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
restaurants. Now the British Medical Association has voted to outlaw | :25:28. | :25:30. | |
everywhere but not everybody at once. It would apply to anyone born | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
after the year 2000. In a moment we will debate the merits of those | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
plans but first he is Adam. There was a time when to be British | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
was to be a smoker. 1948 was the year off peak fag with 82% of men | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
smoking mainly cigarettes but it was a pipe that Harold Wilson used as a | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
political prop to help with the hard-hitting interviews they did in | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
those days. The advertisements make out pipe smokers to be more virile, | :26:02. | :26:12. | |
more fascinating men than anybody else. Do you thought -- have that | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
thought anywhere in your mind? No. It changed in 2006 when smoking in | :26:18. | :26:28. | |
enclosed places was banned. I would rather be inside but unfortunately | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
we have got to do what this Government tells us to do. I think | :26:32. | :26:38. | |
it is good, it is calm and you can breathe. Research suggests it has | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
improved the health of bar workers no end and reduced childhood asthma. | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
Now just one in five adults is a smoker. Coming next, crackdowns on | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
those newfangled e-cigarettes, smoking in cars and possibly the | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
introduction of plain packaging. There is still those who take pride | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
in smoking and see it as a war on freedom. | :27:06. | :27:18. | |
We're joined now by Dr Vivienne Nathanson | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
from the British Medical Association who voted for a graduated ban | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
on smoking at their conference last week, and Simon Clark | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
They're here to go head-to-head. There are plenty of things which are | :27:29. | :27:37. | |
bad for our health, why single out cigarettes? We need some sugar in | :27:38. | :27:47. | |
our diets but the fact is that we need to stop people smoking as | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
children because if we can do that, the likelihood that they will start | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
smoking is very small. In no circumstances is smoking good for | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
you. There are lots of smokers who live long, healthy lives but we | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
totally accept smoking is a risk to your health and adults have to make | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
that decision, just as you make the decision about drinking alcohol, | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
eating fatty foods and drinking sugary drinks. This proposal is | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
totally impractical. It will create a huge black market in cigarettes | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
which will get bigger every year. They say this is about stopping | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
children smoking but there is already a law in place that stops | :28:28. | :28:34. | |
shopkeepers from selling cigarettes to children. This target adults so | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
you could have the bizarre situation in the year 3035 for example where a | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
36-year-old can go into shops to buy cigarettes but if you are 35 you | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
will be denied that, which is ludicrous. The point is that the | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
younger you start smoking the more likely you will become heavily | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
addicted. I take the point, but the point he is saying is that if this | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
becomes law, down the road, if you go into shops to buy cigarettes you | :29:04. | :29:08. | |
would have to take your birth certificate, wouldn't you? We have | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
no idea how the legislation would be written but the key point is that if | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
we can stop young people from starting to smoke, we will in 20 | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
years have a whole group of people who have never smoked so you won't | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
have that problem of people who are smokers and they are now in their | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
20s and 30s. Or you will have a lot of younger people who get cigarettes | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
the way they currently get illegal drugs now. They are already getting | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
cigarettes illegally and we have to deal with that. We have got to get | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
better. The Government has not been able to stop it. We know this is | :29:46. | :29:56. | |
going to kill 50%... When you are 15 you think you will live for ever. | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
Indeed but they also do it as rebellion and because they see | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
adults and it is remarkably easy to buy cigarettes. Whatever the case is | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
for individual choice, won't most people agree that if you could stop | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
young people smoking, so that through the rest of their lives they | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
never smoked, that would be worth doing? You get 16 or 17-year-olds | :30:18. | :30:27. | |
who already do that. Is it worth trying? When the government | :30:28. | :30:33. | |
increased the age at which shopkeepers could sell from 16 to | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
18, we supported it. We don't support a ban on proxy purchasing, | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
we support reasonable measures, but this is unreasonable. This proposal | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
says a lot about the BMA, because this week the BMA also passed a | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
motion to ban the use of E cigarettes in public places. There | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
is no evidence that they are dangerous to health, so why are they | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
doing that? They are becoming a temperance society. This is not | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
about public health, it's an old-fashioned temperance society and | :31:03. | :31:05. | |
they have to get their act together because they are bringing the | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
medical profession into disrepute. We were having argument is about | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
things that people buy large accept, smoking in bars or public places, | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
but the real aim of the BMA was the total banning of cigarettes | :31:20. | :31:21. | |
altogether. This would suggest that that was true to claim that. It's | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
not about a ban, it's about a move to a country where nobody wants to | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
smoke and no one is a smoker. But it would be illegal to smoke. It would | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
be illegal to buy, not smoke, and there's a difference between two. So | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
even if I am born in the year 2000, it would still be illegal to smoke, | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
just illegal to buy the cigarettes? Indeed. The point being that the | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
habit of smoking is very strongly linked to your ability to buy, so | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
that is why things like Price and availability and marketing are so | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
important. People will flood across the Channel with the cigarettes. One | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
thing you will find is that throughout the world people is | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
looking at -- people are looking at the same kind of measures, and | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
different countries like Australia, they were the first with a | :32:14. | :32:16. | |
standardised packaging. Other countries will follow, because all | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
of us are facing the fact that we can't afford to pay for the | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
tragedy. There will be people waiting to flood the market with | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
cigarettes. This is nonsense. Thanks for both coming and going | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
"Unless we have more equal head-to-head. | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
"Unless we have more equal representation, our politics won't | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
be half as good as it should be." So said David Cameron back in 2009. | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
So how's it going? Well, you can judge the quality | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
of the politics for yourself, but we've been crunching | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
the numbers to find out what parliament might look like after | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
the next year's general election. Here's Giles. | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
Politicians are elected to Parliament to represent their | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
constituents, but the make-up of Parliament does not reflect society | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
well at all the parties it. In 2010 more women and ethnic minority | :33:04. | :33:05. | |
candidates entered Westminster but not significantly more inner chamber | :33:06. | :33:15. | |
still dominated by white males. Looking at the current make-up of | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
the Commons, Labour has 83 female MPs, the Conservative have 47 women | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
MPs, which is just over 47% -- and the Lib Dems have 12% of the | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
parties. All of the parties have selected parliaments in those seats | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
where existing MPs are retiring and to fight seats at the next | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
election, and they've all been trying to up the number of women and | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
ethnic minorities because discounts and can be capitalised on. A picture | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
tells a thousand words. Look at the all-male front bench before us. And | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
he says he wants to represent the whole country. Despite the jibe, the | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
Labour Party know they have a long way to go on the issue of being | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
representative. So we way to go on the issue of being | :33:59. | :34:09. | |
look at this particular area of lack of women and ethnic minorities. | :34:10. | :34:10. | |
In the most marginal, 40 have women candidates, that would mean if they | :34:11. | :34:42. | |
got just enough to win power, they would have 133 women, which is 41% | :34:43. | :34:49. | |
The Conservatives currently have 305 MPs and their strategy | :34:50. | :34:50. | |
at the next election is to concentrate on their 40 most | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
marginal seats, and the 40 seats most mathematically likely to turn | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
In those 40, 29 candidates have been selected | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
If they kept hold of their existing seats and won those 29 new ones, | :35:00. | :35:05. | |
they would have 56 women MPs, around 17%, and up 2% from last time. | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
The Liberal Democrats are fighting to hold on to the 57 seats they won | :35:09. | :35:31. | |
One Conservative peer who thinks the party needs to look at all options | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
in its female -- if its female numbers go down says element is | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
simply missing trick. If 50% of our population is not being looked at, | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
even, are we really using the best of our talent? Yes, women's life | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
experiences are different, they are not superior, or inferior. They are | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
different. But surely, those experiences need to be represented | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
here at Westminster. That is the Parliamentary projection for | :36:06. | :36:08. | |
gender, what about ethnicity? According to the last census in | :36:09. | :36:14. | |
2011, 13% of people in the UK describe themselves as non-white. | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
Labour currently has 16 MPs from black, Asian or minority | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
backgrounds, with just over 6%. If they get the extra 60 seats, that | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
figure goes up to 26, it was sent off their party. The Tories | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
currently have 11 black ethic minority candidates, or 4% of the | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
party. The biggest and next 29 seats, it would mean 14 black and | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
ethnic minority MPs, again putting them on for percent. The Lib Dems do | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
not have any black or ethic minority MPs, if they managed to cling on to | :36:48. | :36:50. | |
the current number of seats they would have two, giving them a | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
proportion of 4%. If they lost the 20 most vulnerable seats, it would | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
go back down to zero. But even if you change the mix of gender and | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
ethnicity in Parliament, would it solve the problem? Probably not. | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
Only 10% of us have gone to a private, fee-paying school. 33% of | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
new MPs in 2010 dead. A quarter of all MPs went to Oxford or | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
Cambridge. Only a fifth of us went to any university. There is a huge | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
disillusion in this place which has summoning people -- so many people | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
who do not look like us. They cannot communicate in a way that we can | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
relate to. If you look at turnout, at the moment, if you are an | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
unskilled worker, you are 20 times less likely to turn out and vote. | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
That is getting worse and worse at every election. That is the key, | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
evidence does suggest that if a party reflects the society it exists | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
within, it is more likely to get the votes they also badly need. -- they | :37:55. | :38:00. | |
all so badly need. It is just about time for Sunday | :38:01. | :38:07. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
An official investigation into a head-on collision of | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
two RAF Tornados over the Moray Firth in 2012 concludes that | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
an on-board collision warning system would have saved lives. | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
A sledgehammer to crack a nut - that's how one critic describes | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
the Government's policy to give each youngster a named person | :38:32. | :38:33. | |
We have a look at the history of the TV political debate. | :38:34. | :38:49. | |
Air accident investigators have concluded that if | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
an on-board collision warning system had been fitted to the RAF's fleet | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
of Tornados, it would have saved lives when two of the jets crashed | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
The BBC understands the finding is contained in | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
a highly critical and long awaited report into the accident, due to be | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
published tomorrow by the Military Aviation Authority ahead of the | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
Our Westminster correspondent Tim Reid has this exclusive report. | :39:12. | :39:23. | |
Being brought ashore, the wreckage of a collision between two Tornado | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
jets over the Moray Firth in July 2012. The accident happened in misty | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
conditions but investigators believe fatalities would have been avoided | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
if the collision warning system, for years delayed or cancelled by the | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
MOD, had been fitted. The aircrew died in the accident and the fourth | :39:45. | :39:50. | |
was seriously injured. A long-awaited report by the Military | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
Aviation Authority makes 50 recommendations, it says a new | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
on-board one in system which was only approved months after the crash | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
must be operational as soon as possible. Campaigners say they will | :40:01. | :40:03. | |
step up their calls for a fatal accident enquiries to get to the | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
full truth. The report is particularly critical of the | :40:07. | :40:10. | |
procurement processes within the MOD, it talks of smoke and mirrors | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
over costs of delaying and cancelling the system, which is only | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
due to become operational in the Tornado fleet by the end of the | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
year, but which is still not fitted the Typhoon aircraft, which are also | :40:23. | :40:23. | |
based at RAF Lossiemouth. I'm joined now by the SNP defence | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
spokesman, Angus Robertson, the House of Commons Defence Select | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
Committee, and joins us from London. And as Robertson, this report is | :40:30. | :40:41. | |
expected to say that lives could have been saved, had a collision | :40:42. | :40:47. | |
warning system been installed. What is your reaction to that? Well, I | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
think that has long been the view of experts, people who understand their | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
worthiness, but for it to be confirmed this report, and we are | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
still waiting for the final text, it would be a damning indictment on the | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
approach that the Ministry of Defence takes to the safety of | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
service personnel. It raises very serious questions about the | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
decision-making process, which recommended the installation of a | :41:18. | :41:20. | |
collision warning system in Tornado aircraft in the 1990s, yet they are | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
still not installed. It also raises questions about why no | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
recommendations have yet been made for the installation of a collision | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
warning system on board Typhoon aircraft, which are operating at | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
present in Scotland. This is not new, we lost far too many people in | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
that accident and serious issues were raised about MOD airworthiness | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
management then. This is not a new story, and it really does make a | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
case or a fatal accident enquiry, so the MOD and people who make | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
decisions within the MOD, like Liam Fox, have to answer for the delays | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
in installation of collision warning system is, indeed for its | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
cancellation at one stage. Our service personnel's lives, their | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
safety, must come first, always. It does seem extraordinary that the | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
installation of a collision one exist on Tornados was recommended 14 | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
years before this accident happened. Yet, based on her not been | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
installed. That is right, they should have been installed. And it | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
should have happened a long time ago. The big problem is, people have | :42:36. | :42:43. | |
to make decisions on what they can afford. I would love to see far more | :42:44. | :42:49. | |
money spent on defence. Too much of our defence policy is done sort of | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
on the cheap. I would very much like to have seen a collision warning | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
system put on the Tornado and indeed on the Typhoon. We have not had the | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
result of this report yet, so I assume that what you see may be the | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
truth, but I have not read it. But if it is someone who points the | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
finger and says, if we had a collision warning system on this | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
aircraft, this might not have happened, I totally endorse that. We | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
require a collision avoidance system on all our aircraft. But Tornados is | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
one thing, it seems one thing -- it seems extraordinary that the Typhoon | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
aircraft, the next generation aircraft, they are not even | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
installed on that. They are not just desirable on civilian aircraft, they | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
are Monday on civil in aircraft that carry more than 20 passengers, yet | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
we have these multi-million pound fighter aircraft that have not | :43:50. | :43:57. | |
bothered to put them on. I agree. All I am saying is, frankly, we are | :43:58. | :44:03. | |
in a martial profession in the Royal Belfast, and sometimes risks are | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
taken. The people in the RAF do what they can with the equipment they | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
have. It is a political decision, as do resources. And I agree with | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
Angus, perhaps we should have put these collision warning systems on | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
our craft a long time ago. But then my question is, what do we not put | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
on the aeroplanes? Someone in the RAF who understands it much better | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
than us next the decision on priorities. I do not know what the | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
priorities were. Angus Robertson, I presume there is an economic case | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
for these things, because there is the tragic loss of life in the 2012 | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
incident, but without sounding callous, these particular | :44:45. | :44:52. | |
Eurofighter is, these cost millions of pounds each, it would surely be | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
cheaper to put something in them that would stop losing that | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
multi-million pound investment. I think it needs context, we must | :45:02. | :45:04. | |
understand that there are families, friends and colleagues who are | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
watching programmes like this, they have not seen the report but what | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
they are about to be able to read is a detailed account of how their | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
loved ones died. It is going to be extremely distressing for them. And | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
everybody was my first thoughts need to be in that context. The point you | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
raised about the value, the cost, both of equipment for the Tornado or | :45:25. | :45:30. | |
the Typhoon, and the crew who have gone through years of training and | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
have experience, that has cost a lot as well. All of this does beg the | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
question, why is it that we would send some of our most highly trained | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
service men and women, using some of the most expensive equipment that | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
the RAF has at its disposal, regularly into exercises and | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
low-flying, into operations, without a collision warning system, when we | :45:56. | :45:58. | |
know it has been recommended for such a long time? Bob raises a | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
question about the decisions that are made, and he is right, it would | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
be very difficult decisions. I completely agree. But when it comes | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
down to people's lives and people's lives being put at risk, or when we | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
know that air proximity examples, when planes come close enough to | :46:16. | :46:24. | |
collide, they happen on a very regular, they occur very regularly | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
in Scottish airspace and the rest of the UK, when we know there are | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
issues about the amount of engineering personnel who maintain | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
the highest safety standards, given we know all this, and we also know | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
that the recommendation to install a collision warning system was | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
followed by decisions that slowed that down and at one stage stopped | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
it, that was on Liam Fox's watch, all of this makes the case | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
overwhelmingly for a fatal accident enquiry so the conclusions of this | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
military and the -- military of poverty report are to conduct -- | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
Military Aviation Authority report are taken in detail. I should point | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
out, we did ask Liam Fox to appear on the programme today, but he was | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
unavailable. Angus Robertson,, you talked about the need for a fatal | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
accident enquiry, think one of the organ as you will face, possibly | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
tomorrow, is that -- one of the arguments you will face, if this is | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
as critical as we are led to believe of procurement policy in the Royal | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
Air Force, people will say, there is no need for a fatal accident | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
enquiry, we have already got it, in effect. If that were the case, there | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
would have been no need for justice -- for the judge to conduct a | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
coroner's inquest into the loss of the Nimrod aircraft. There are many | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
other examples that we know of. The loss in the Mull of Kintyre of the | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
helicopter, which was followed by a fatal accident enquiry. We need to | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
get to the bottom of this, people's lives were lost, millions of pounds | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
worth of equivalent was lost and the decision-making systems in the MOD, | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
it appears, have broken down. We need to understand this so it never | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
happens again. We cannot ask our service personnel to put the lights | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
on the line then lose it, because basic safety equipment was not | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
installed in aircraft. Bob Stuart, would you agree that there needs to | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
be a fatal accident enquiry following the publication of the | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
report? I do not know, to be honest. I have not seen the report or the | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
recommendations. But I do know one thing, the Royal Air Force and the | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
Ministry of Defence will be taking note of what it says. The idea that | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
we would not try and put urgently collision avoiding systems on all | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
our fast jets seems to me strange will stop if it is not immediately | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
done. But the problem is, we have got to make decisions on priorities. | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
Can I point out that these very gallant young men, all of them, were | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
doing their very best to fly as well as they could, to man their | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
equipment as well as they could, but the equipment they had, they had to | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
fly. They do not have a choice. No blame on them whatsoever. We all | :49:31. | :49:33. | |
feel, as Angus and myself and everyone watching this programme | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
does, how tragic the result was. But everyone, like myself and everyone | :49:40. | :49:45. | |
in Parliament, really wants us to fly as safely as we can, but these | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
aeroplanes and these aircrew are there to defend our country and | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
sometimes they have to take risks in training, which is what they were | :49:56. | :49:57. | |
doing. How A key support for families or big | :49:58. | :50:08. | |
brother gone too far? That's the debate surrounding the Scottish | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
Government's named person policy. Brought in under the Children and | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
Young People Bill earlier this year, the policy gives every Scot under 18 | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
a designated person responsible for their well being. That person isn't | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
a parent or relative but someone from the public sector. Some | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
charities have welcomed the move as a step towards greater child | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
protection, others feel parents' human rights are being infringed. | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
Next month opponents will see a judicial review of the measure. | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
Megan Paterson has been exploring the debate. The visit from the | :50:39. | :50:49. | |
health visitor finds this baby happy, healthy and progressing well. | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
But his health visitor serves another purpose, she is his named | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
person, assigned by the government to monitor his well-being. Every | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
family is different, every family dynamic is different as well. It is | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
really a matter of making relationships and building on that. | :51:13. | :51:17. | |
There is trust each way between the families and hoping you are giving | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
them the help they are looking for in their child's's development up to | :51:25. | :51:33. | |
the age of five. It has made a great difference. In the hospital he was | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
taken to special care, we were in longer and when we came home it was | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
good to have somebody. I was nervous because he had been encamped, | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
special Kier that I was doing everything right. The decision was | :51:50. | :52:01. | |
taken to roll out this system across the whole country. The Christian | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
Institute have mounted a judicial review funded by members of the | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
public. It gives huge powers to named persons to advise and talk to | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
children without the parents even knowing about it or without their | :52:18. | :52:25. | |
consent. The same state bodies will be involved in looking for all these | :52:26. | :52:31. | |
families where there is no issue at all. Instead of actually finding | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
that needle in the haystack actually making the haystack much bigger. | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
That will find it much more difficult to get to that vulnerable | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
child. They still have to respect family rights. Health visitors or | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
teachers will usually take on the role of named person, people the | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
families already know but some people feel it will be to the | :53:01. | :53:08. | |
conflict of interests especially when children get ill. We saw our | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
son's health decline quite rapidly and he was being forced to attend to | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
school, we took the health professionals at their word that | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
this was the thing to do, to keep him any routine, get him up and not | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
let him rest. When we saw his health deteriorate rapidly we stepped in. | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
The named person makes that extremely difficult for parents to | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
do now because you have an extra layer of bureaucracy that makes it | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
difficult for the parents to have the final word on the ear of their | :53:46. | :53:57. | |
children. -- care of their children. At the moment people already have | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
information where there are concerns about a child. This is about | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
coordinating it and making sure the best use is made of the information | :54:09. | :54:15. | |
for the care of the child. Most people will not need to use the | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
named person in the way we go to the doctor. We do not use the doctor | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
every day or every week but we go when we need them. We do not know | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
when children or families may become vulnerable and need extra help but | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
it is important that when this happens the children have a named | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
person to go to to get the extra help or advice they need. With the | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
campaign against named person stepping up over the summer the | :54:47. | :54:51. | |
roll-out seems far from trouble-free. I am joined by the | :54:52. | :54:59. | |
Minister for young people and the Conservative Gavin Brown. Proponents | :55:00. | :55:10. | |
of this legislation are seeking a judicial view. -- review. They have | :55:11. | :55:18. | |
asked you not to finalise the bill until a decision is made on the | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
legal probe cess, are you prepared to do that? We are very clear we | :55:24. | :55:31. | |
want to give children the best start in life. We are confident this goes | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
through all the requirements to go through Parliament, it has already | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
had royal assent as well. We see no reason to delay unless any good | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
reason comes forward which we do not believe their Es. So you will go | :55:50. | :55:59. | |
ahead? Implementation is in 2016. It has received support through the | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
consultation and we are absolutely clear this complies with all the | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
legal requirements that legislation needs. The argument for having a | :56:07. | :56:14. | |
named person for every child, it is the every that seems to be the bone | :56:15. | :56:19. | |
of contention, is that you never know which child will need help, | :56:20. | :56:28. | |
that has some force, does it not? If you have universal provision for | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
every person in Scotland between the age of zero and 18 it means you are | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
expending resources on people who do not want it and do not need it. The | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
money cannot be spent twice. The money that could be targeted on our | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
most vulnerable is being spent on people who do not want it so I think | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
it has the danger of being very inefficient. It is bending money on | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
an enormous bureaucracy that does not help every single child. -- | :56:59. | :57:07. | |
spending money. I do not agree. It is about getting help for a family | :57:08. | :57:16. | |
or child as early as possible. A named person could have access to | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
the medical records of a child, isn't that correct? This does not | :57:22. | :57:31. | |
interfere with parents rights at all. Couldn't they have that access | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
without the rights of the parents being considered? It is help for | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
families with everyone being brought on board. If the named person is not | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
satisfied with the response of the parent they could have access to the | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
medical records of the child without the parent's consent, is that | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
correct? We are sharing information in a proportionate way that makes | :58:00. | :58:05. | |
sure we have the best interests of children at the very heart of | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
decision-making. Be honest and is to the question I have just asked is | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
yes, in certain circumstances the named person could have access to | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
information like that. Where the person feels that the children's | :58:21. | :58:33. | |
safety is at risk they may have access but they live their robust | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
framework to make sure this sharing of information is done in a robust | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
and appropriate way. It could be access to private information about | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
a child without the consent of the parent of that child. It provides a | :58:46. | :58:53. | |
consistent framework. Do you think there is a question of parental | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
rights here? Of course there is. These are the fundamental | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
practicality issue. You are disrupting the autonomy of the | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
family, moving the balance towards the state and away from parents. In | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
many circumstances parents know best, the state does not know best, | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
it does not have an unblemished record in this area. Responses came | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
back from many organisations that their was very little consultation | :59:24. | :59:37. | |
with parents. That is not true. There are a huge number of people | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
and organisations already responsible for children in | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
Scotland. What precisely is added by having a named person for every | :59:49. | :59:54. | |
Child? It is about embedding good practice. If you are correct that it | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
is not the gross infringement of the rights of parents, what does it do? | :00:01. | :00:08. | |
The leader of the Conservative group in the Borders said this does not | :00:09. | :00:15. | |
interfere with parental rights. If you have the teacher who is a named | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
person, that teacher could have access to private medical records of | :00:23. | :00:28. | |
the Child. The parent of that child is concerned and if that teacher at | :00:29. | :00:36. | |
the child another named person could have access to private information | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
on their child in an infinite gene, isn't there something slightly east | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
German about this? Though, because it is about embedding good | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
practice. This reduces bureaucracy, allows professionals to intervene | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
where families most that need require additional support. It saves | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
money. It is about wider reform to make sure we get help to families | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
who need it and require it, with children who require it in a timely | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
way because the cost to the public purse of not doing these things is | :01:15. | :01:20. | |
if problems escalate into crises. That is something we want to avoid. | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
This supports parents. In response to what parents have to what parents | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
have told as they want through this parenting strategy. It has been very | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
much done in consultation with parents. Thank you very much indeed. | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
In a moment we will be looking at the history of TV political debate | :01:40. | :01:50. | |
but first, the news. Good afternoon. Air accident investigators have | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
concluded that if an onboard collision warning system had been | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
fitted to the RAF's fleet of Tornados, it could have saved lives. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
Three airmen died when two jets crashed off the Caithness coast in | :02:00. | :02:02. | |
July 2012. The Military Aviation Authority is due to publish a long | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
awaited report into the accident tomorrow. The BBC understands the | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
report is highly critical of the Ministry of Defence, which for years | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
repeatedly delayed and cancelled the fitting of a collision warning | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
system to the aircraft. The Treasury has claimed that Scottish Government | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
plans to increase borrowing under independence would be incompatible | :02:26. | :02:36. | |
with retaining the pound. The First Minister said initial borrowing | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
would boost the economy and allow a sustainable cut in the deficit. He | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
added that Scotland would start out being more prosperous per head than | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
the UK, France or Japan. Danny Alexander said that boosting | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
borrowing to fund higher spending would set Scotland on a different | :02:53. | :03:03. | |
path from the rest of the UK. You cannot both have massive extra | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
borrowing and ensure that currency union will take place. We have to | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
accept that they will not be a currency union. They are not being | :03:16. | :03:21. | |
transparent and open with the people of Scotland about their alternative | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
plan. And, it's the second day of the Bannockburn Live festival, | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
marking the 700th anniversary of the famous battle. Hundreds of actors | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
are recreating the 1314 military encounter in which Robert the Bruce | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
defeated the forces of Edward the Second. Musicians and comedians are | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
performing over two days with more than 40 clans gathering for the | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
occasion. Despite initial concern over slow ticket sales, organisers | :03:41. | :03:48. | |
said yesterday's event sold out. The weather forecast now with | :03:49. | :03:58. | |
Christopher. Generally a better day today compared with yesterday. Some | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
sunshine developing but also the risk of one or two showers, and | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
regularly down the south of the country. Feeling cooler where clouds | :04:07. | :04:15. | |
are thicker. This evening and overnight the showers will tend to | :04:16. | :04:18. | |
feed. And when exactly do you do it, | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
if you decide to do it? TV debates are a big worry | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
for politicians and the scrutiny is even more intense and instantaneous | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
in the age of social media. Just when your campaign is going | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
well, one clanger can give Timing is crucial too - when do | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
you decide to meet for battle, and Andrew Kerr takes a look back | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
at debates of the past. And this was a common 1960, when | :04:49. | :05:10. | |
campaigning changed for ever. More than 60 million Americans tuned | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
in to watch the first ever televised debate between the two tank -- | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
candidates running for presidency. I know what it means to be caught, I | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
know what it means to see people who are unemployed. This party has | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
produced Harry Truman, which supports and sustains these | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
programmes I discussed tonight. Tanned and relaxed, JFK looked | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
confident, compared to the shifty looking Nixon. TV viewers thought | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
Kennedy had one, the radio listeners thought it was a close call in the | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
race for the White House. In the last presidential election, there | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
were three debates of varying formats. We welcome President Obama | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
and Governor Romney. President Obama lost the first one, it was probably | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
a draw in the second, and he won the final. These were key staging posts | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
in the campaign. Popular with voters, even more popular with the | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
media. These debates are embedded in popular culture. The renowned | :06:16. | :06:26. | |
presidential series the West When she was the effort that goes into | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
reparation. Why did you nominate him? Bite me, that's why. So, these | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
debates are part and parcel of political life in the US. And even | :06:44. | :06:53. | |
Scottish campaigns. In 2011, the main party leaders gathered in Perth | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
ahead of the Holyrood election. Voters had their say and the rough | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
idea was given when a possible referendum could be held. Tonight, | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
who do you want to be your next Prime Minister? It was not until | :07:09. | :07:18. | |
2010 that the UK party leaders could show off their wares in this type of | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
forum. All tracked by the so-called war as voters expressed their views. | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
These dates can so often provide an unexpected boost to those struggling | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
to make a challenge. -- so-called war. -- worm. A word to the wise, it | :07:34. | :07:48. | |
was not the debate, but there was an audience. And DV cameras were | :07:49. | :07:56. | |
running. All right! We're all right! After that performance, act | :07:57. | :08:05. | |
normally, don't be overconfident, and do wear a decent tie. | :08:06. | :08:12. | |
Now it's time to have a look at what's happening in the week ahead. | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
the Political editor of the Herald, Magnus Gardham, | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
and Stephen McGinty from the Scotsman. | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
Let's start with this story about Danny Alexander having written a | :08:25. | :08:35. | |
letter, very stern one, but plans the Scottish Government have for | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
increasing spending, should they get a Yes vote in a referendum and | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
saying, hang on, that is not the same as the austerity programme, | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
therefore not only can you not have a currency union, but it sure was | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
you that you don't really believe you're going to get one. It is | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
interesting that Danny Alexander has picked up on this. The SNP set out | :08:57. | :09:05. | |
their borrowing plans, it is the case that they would burrow billions | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
of pounds between 2016 and 2019, would amount to 2.4 billion alone, | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
in order to boost the economy and move away from austerity. Danny | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
Alexander has said, that is exactly the kind of policy divergence which | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
took -- which would put some pressure on a currency union that it | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
would be unsustainable. You might ask, why has he written a letter, | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
given he has already ruled it out? But I think it is a sign that a | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
currency union is not going to go away, the issue is not going to go | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
away throughout this referendum campaign. Magnus is saying why did | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
he write the letter? I suspect the politics of this is the dimension | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
that he was to say, hang on, it only is this incompatible with a currency | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
union, but in my view as Danny Alexander, you realise that, or you | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
would not be saying this. He is effectively trying to make the point | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
that the currency union has not been agreed, it is a major problem for | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
the SNP, though -- that is the way it is being viewed by many people | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
and he is time to drive that point home. Scottish Government would say | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
that a better economic strategy than anything you whatever, with. The | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
Treasury are constantly saying this is our predicted spending, this is | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
what we're going to do, and then the future happens and you revise it. It | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
will be interesting to see in the future whether this will invariably | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
change. And whether it is on a par with what the SNP want to do anyway. | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
A quick comment on the Tornados story. It does seem, it surprised me | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
on a looked into this, that even the most advanced next generation | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
aircraft in the RAF, as of now, do not have these collision warning | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
system is installed. It is a very alarming finding. Clearly we will | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
have to wait until tomorrow to hear more from the MOD to see what they | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
are saying in response to that. In the meantime, I think it is hard to | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
say a lot more than it is good that the report has finally been | :11:16. | :11:17. | |
published, it is good for the families, obviously, and I think | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
taking up from what we heard Angus Robertson saying, I can see pressure | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
for a fatal accident enquiry beginning to grow. I think it is | :11:27. | :11:33. | |
tragic that it happened and it must be very galling for the families. | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
The fact that a collision warning system was suggested in the 1990s | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
and nothing happens, the loved ones are now dead, it could have been | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
avoided. I think it is tragic for them, and it is crucial that the MOD | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
continue the roll-out of the system. The Armed Forces are featured in a | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
very different way on the front pages of the papers. This is | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
allegations that David Cameron was politicising Armed Forces Day by his | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
speech and so allegations that leaflets are being circulate it by | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
the MOD through the services which take a position on the referendum. | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
It is interesting. He clearly said he was not going to politicise the | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
day, it should be a neutral day, but politics will invariably come into | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
this. This could be one of the last ones, and he used the opportunity to | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
make a point. I think there was criticism of it, I was at the event | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
yesterday and this book is an ex-soldiers afterwards and one of | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
them wait -- made the point that this was the one day people come | :12:49. | :12:51. | |
together and celebrate the Armed Forces and it was wrong for the | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
Prime Minister to play politics with that day. What did you make of it? I | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
am in two minds. Given the weight of symbolism around Armed Forces Day, | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
out of me thinks it would be rather odd if the Prime Minister had not | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
made a passing reference to the referendum. Another part of me | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
thinks, given the weight of symbolism around Armed Forces Day, | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
was it really necessary? What it does show is the heightened | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
sensitivity around the referendum issue, and woke the type any | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
politician who is contemplating politicising the Commonwealth Games. | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
This thing about the leaflets, there are allegations from both sides that | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
the Government is being used inappropriately. If Government is | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
being used in a properly, both of them, we are seeing huge spending on | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
the White Paper, huge spending on the Scotland Office leaflets. We | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
will have to leave it there. That's all we have time for, I will be back | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
at the same time next week. Until then, goodbye. | :13:55. | :13:58. |