Browse content similar to 06/12/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:37. | :00:38. | |
Police say they're treating a multiple stabbing in London | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
As the RAF intensifies its bombing campaign over Syria, | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
is this the latest sign of an evolving threat on British streets? | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
Labour scored a significant win at this week's Oldham by-election, | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
but after a tough week for Jeremy Corbyn, | :00:55. | :00:56. | |
there are more reports of smears, abuse and even talk of a purge. | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
We'll be speaking to a member of the Shadow Cabinet. | :01:01. | :01:08. | |
And it's not just the Labour Party that has its rebels. | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
We'll be talking to the Conservative MP Heidi Allen, who hit | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
the headlines after delivering a bombshell speech against her own | :01:14. | :01:15. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
With all 54 SNP MPs voting against extending air strikes | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
on Syria, we'll ask Stephen Gethins where that leaves the party now. | :01:23. | :01:37. | |
And joining me for all of that, three journalists who've dutifully | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
battled through the wind and the rain to get here, | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
even without the threat of a telling off from Andrew. | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh, | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
and they'll be tweeting throughout the show. | :01:51. | :01:51. | |
that police are treating an attack at a London underground station | :01:52. | :01:59. | |
A man carrying a knife was reported to have screamed, | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
as he injured three men at Leytonstone station | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
making it potentially the first terrorist attack on British soil | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
since the murder of fusilier Lee Rigby in 2013. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
Mobile phone footage shows police officers | :02:16. | :02:16. | |
wrestling with a man after he had been tasered. | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
He was later arrested and remains in custody. | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
The Metropolitan Police said one man suffered serious knife injuries | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
but was not thought to be in a life-threatening condition, | :02:27. | :02:28. | |
while two other victims received minor injuries. | :02:29. | :02:36. | |
has this morning called the attack an "abomination", | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
and we can speak now to the local MP John Cryer | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
Your response? It is an appalling attack. And it is frightening, very | :02:44. | :02:53. | |
frightening for local people. I've been talking to some of the local | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
businesses this morning and obviously they are all very worried | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
about it now. What the background is, what the motivation is, I do | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
think it would be particularly helpful to speculate at the moment. | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
-- I don't think it would be particularly helpful. So I'd rather | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
not do that. But when something like this happens in your own area, it is | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
not something expect. Leytonstone is a peaceful area, a lot of | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
communities live together extremely peacefully and harmoniously, that's | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
one of the great things about this area. People will be scared and | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
understandably so, as you say, so what is your message to constituents | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
as they wake up to this news? I think the message is that we carry | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
on as normal, that we don't allow this sort of barbaric behaviour to | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
change our lives. And I think that's the important thing. And I think | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
people will continue as well. I'm not saying people will be blase | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
about it, people will be very concerned. But I don't think people | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
will allow this to change the way they live their lives on a | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
day-to-day basis, that's the impression I've had from the people | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
I've been talking to this morning. Now, this has happened just days | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
after parliament voted for air strikes in Syria, people are bound, | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
rightly or wrongly to draw a link between the two, what say you? | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
Welcome I was opposed to the air strikes in Syria, I voted against | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
air strikes in Syria, I think it will prove to be quite a major | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
mistake. I am not convinced that this will be connected to the air | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
strikes in Syria. Well I just don't know at the moment so we can only | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
speculate. But there doesn't seem to be immediately evidence that there | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
is a direct link. But we have to find out what the background is. | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
Police are investigating. I have been in contact with police this | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
morning. At I think it would be dangerous to say this is a direct | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
consequence of air strikes in Syria. And as I say I am a fairly major | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
critic of the government's activities. Thank you. | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
This comes after the so-called Islamic State | :05:06. | :05:06. | |
claimed a husband and wife who massacred 14 people | :05:07. | :05:08. | |
were supporters of the terrorist group. | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
So is this just the latest sign that the West faces a new type of threat? | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Well, we're joined now by the security expert Will Geddes. | :05:19. | :05:22. | |
At the moment it looks like a lone wolf, no accomplices, no | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
organisation in any major way behind it, is that how you read it? I think | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
pretty much so. It is incredibly difficult to say right now and again | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
it is dangerous to speculate too much until the police have | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
undertaken their investigations to determine how this individual was | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
motivated, under what particular an brother that might have been, | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
whether it was alone, whether it was a self radicalisation process -- | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
what particular an umbrella that might have been. We have been | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
expecting an attack because we have had the Paris attacks, we have had | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
the attacks in Southern California, and there had been warnings about | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
it, and the terror threat is still extremely high. So we shouldn't be | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
that surprised. No, I don't think we are. And I think we are accepting | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
the fact that unfortunately we are at a very high risk level intervals | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
of these types of attacks. And this precedes the Syrian bombing | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
agreements in terms of the fact that there were seven significant plots | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
foiled this year. We have always been on the radar, it is just down | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
to the capabilities of the individuals. Sadly, certainly in the | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
wake of this most recent incident, it will be the platform of lone | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
wolves more than anything else. Do you think that is the case? That is | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
the most recent pattern, that might be what continues in, unfortunately, | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
capitals across Europe? I think we have to be pragmatic and accept | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
that. Ultimately we know that the individuals that are planning as | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
cells have a far higher chance of detection. So individuals working on | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
their own, whether it be in a very specific conceptual sort of agenda | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
and motivation or whether it be an individual that is simply aligned to | :07:07. | :07:15. | |
the ideologies of Daesh will add to the spectrum of Brett. Nick Watt, | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
what do you think the little reaction will be? We have had some | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
reaction from Jon Cryer saying stay vigilant but don't be blase. That | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
was an incredibly important contribution you had from John | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
Cryer, he is not just the local MP, E is the chairman of the | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
Parliamentary party. In that capacity Jeremy Corbyn invites him | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
to attend the Shadow Cabinet. He voted against air strikes and he is | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
being held up as how the majority of opinion in the Labour Party is | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
against air strikes. He was absolutely clear saying it would be | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
dangerous to say that this attack in Leytonstone is in any way linked to | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
the vote in parliament. The reason why that is significant is that | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
there will be some people and indeed we are already seeing some people on | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
Twitter saying that this attack in Leytonstone is as a result of that | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
vote. Well, the chairman of the PLP who voted against the air strikes | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
said it would be dangerous to make that conclusion. But people will | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
make those links and they will continue to do so particularly in | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
the light of Michael Fallon saying the bombing campaign is intensifying | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
in Syria and there are likely to be civilian cavities. They may well do | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
so but what strikes me about this attack, is awful and horrible as it | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
is for everybody involved, is that it is a rather pathetic and little | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
attack. Very happily the victim, as we understand it, is not going to | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
die as a result of this attack. What strikes me is, were we in America | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
and were the people who are prone to do these things able to get their | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
hands on guns, this would have been a mass casualties could well have | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
been a mass casualties attack. As it was, we're left with somebody just | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
randomly stabbing and not really getting anywhere. Do you think | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
people are ready for how long this campaign is going to go on for, and | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
we are going to live in the shadow indirectly or directly of a | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
terrorist threat? I don't know if people are ready for just Syria or | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
maybe five years worth of security being one of the top three issues in | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
the country. If you look at the issues index, most salient to voters | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
in recent years, it has been the usual economy, NHS, immigration to a | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
certain extent. I wonder whether, by the time of the next election | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
because of this fairly consistent terror threat, security is even | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
number one, two or three. We've got the investigatory Powers Bill going | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
through Parliament at the moment and I think that kind of legislation, | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
the presence of a terror threat, the kind of thing that is on the evening | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
news might overnight over five years will change what we consider to be | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
the most salient issues in British issues -- night after night. There | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
had been reports that one of the Paris attackers had travelled to | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
Britain earlier this year, and the chair of the Home Affairs Select | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
Committee said it is a real worry that people are able to get through | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
our borders without being detected. How worried are you by those | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
reports? I think we are playing a bit of a catch-up game and | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
unfortunately we have to appreciate it many capabilities in tens of the | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
border force a Metropolitan Police and police agencies across the UK. | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
Although there have been positive suggestions by the government in | :10:21. | :10:23. | |
terms of boosting numbers within the security services, for example, you | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
are still looking at approximately 18 months before those 1900 new | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
heads within GCHQ and security services will be operationally able | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
to fulfil their mission. Briefly on the police numbers, also a very | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
controversial issue in terms of the spending review, that didn't happen, | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
the cuts that people feared, the government will be relieved they did | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
not make those cuts? Iain Duncan Smith in condemning these attackers | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
as an abomination made that exact point, saying we kept those police | :10:55. | :10:56. | |
numbers and they will be important in terms of attacking the terrorist | :10:57. | :10:58. | |
threat. Now, the Prime Minister had hoped to | :10:59. | :11:00. | |
sign off his plans for a renegotiation of Britain's EU | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
membership later this month. have decided not give him an early | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
Christmas present, and that means the referendum on | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
whatever deal he does get Last month David Cameron sent a | :11:10. | :11:22. | |
letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council setting out the | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
EU reform demands. There were four main areas he once renegotiated. | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Protection for non-Europe countries and safeguarding their rights. | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
Exemption from an ever closer union. And more powers for national | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
parliaments. Restore competitiveness in the EU which involves cutting red | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
tape and free trade agreements with other economies. And finally, the | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
one causing the most headaches, restricting benefits for EU | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
migrants. Under the Prime Minister's plans, EU migrants would | :11:54. | :11:56. | |
not be able to claim any in work benefits for four years. On Thursday | :11:57. | :12:03. | |
David Cameron abandoned hopes for an early referendum as early as May | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
next year after admitting he would not be able to get the deal he wants | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
at an EU summit in two weeks' time. Donald Tusk will on Monday published | :12:11. | :12:14. | |
an assessment of the British demands in a letter to the 27 other member | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
states. It follows a round of confessionals in which governments | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
have outlined their concerns. He said December's meeting will pave | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
the way for a deal in February. By then David Cameron will be forced to | :12:28. | :12:35. | |
decide whether to campaign for a Brexit or stay in the EU. | :12:36. | :12:37. | |
and committed eurosceptic Iain Duncan Smith | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
has been speaking on The Andrew Marr show this morning, | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
and he said the delay was a sign of strength, not weakness. | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
Well the mood is actually very upbeat. I'm involved in putting | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
together the package that the Prime Minister wants to take to the | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
council. So we've been deep in discussion about that. The Prime | :12:57. | :12:59. | |
Minister has been pretty clear throughout that he wants to take a | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
package that supports the manifesto commitment. In my area for example | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
on welfare it is very clear that he wants to have that commitment, | :13:08. | :13:10. | |
people living here and contributing to the system, and that will be one | :13:11. | :13:12. | |
of the key elements. We did ask for a government minister | :13:13. | :13:14. | |
to talk to us about the prime minister's renegotiation plans | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
but were told none was available. we can speak instead to the | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin, of the eurosceptic Conservatives | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
For Britain group and he joins us | :13:25. | :13:26. | |
from our Westminster studio. Welcome to the programme. Are you as | :13:27. | :13:37. | |
upbeat and optimistic as Iain Duncan Smith? No. Ironic, really, because | :13:38. | :13:46. | |
he and I were elected on the same day in 1992 and we both opposed the | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
Maastricht Treaty. We both spare about the direction of the European | :13:51. | :14:00. | |
Union. -- we both despair. And while he is gamely supporting the Prime | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
Minister's negotiation in its centre is, I think he knows in his heart | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
that this is a very lame renegotiation compared to what the | :14:10. | :14:11. | |
Prime Minister was originally promising. I mean, there are a whole | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
range of things that the Prime Minister wanted, like getting out of | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
all the home affairs and justice revisions of the Lisbon Treaty, like | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
getting a complete opt out of the EU Charter of fundamental rights, which | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
is, for example, gives the power to the European court of justice to | :14:33. | :14:38. | |
decide prisoner voting and not just the European Court of Human Rights, | :14:39. | :14:39. | |
and so it goes on. But, you know, you know Iain Duncan | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
Smith well, he is not known as a raging Europhile, and if he is | :14:46. | :14:50. | |
optimistic and competent, certainly, publicly, the chances of a | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
meaningful deal of a deal with Europe, -- meaningful chance of a | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
deal with Europe, then why cannot you be? He is bound by his duty to | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
the cabinet, but I am free to speak my mind, Iain Duncan Smith focus | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
very narrowly on a very circular way, on his own, on the Prime | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
Minister's own terms of reference. The European Union has changed so | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
Minister's own terms of reference. dramatically over the last 20 or 30 | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
years, the question the British people are going to have to face, do | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
they want to carry on with this journey? There is no status quo, is | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
they want to carry on with the journey of integration, because what | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
the prime ministers negotiating about, will not change the course of | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
the European Union or the course of the United Kingdom within the | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
European Union. They are relatively trivial, rather complicated, but | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
relatively trivial negotiating demands. He's going to get the deal | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
by February. Even if he gets the deal by February, it will not change | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
the price of fish, it will not allow the UK Parliament to determine our | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
own laws and it will not restrict the European court of justice, | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
another of the Prime Minister's demands that he has now dropped. It | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
will not restore the opt out of the social chapter, which was gained by | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
John Major in the Maastricht Treaty, it will not achieve any of these | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
things. There was never going to be enough concessions... I am glad you | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
are making the point that this renegotiation was never really going | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
to address the fundamental problems... Or, you were never going | :16:28. | :16:36. | |
to be satisfied! The Prime Minister was making these much tougher | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
demands. He has dropped these demands. I would be supporting the | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
Prime Minister's negotiating position if he had stuck to his | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
demands. Which one in particular, if there was one thing you would like | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
to see him bring back which you could sell to your constituents, | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
what would it be? The fundamental one, restrict the ability of the | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
European Court of Justice to rule on almost anything. Risen a voting, I | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
mentioned, it is now moving to that area. And the whole question of the | :17:05. | :17:07. | |
relationship between those countries that do not want to be in political | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
union, do not want to be involuntary union, do not want to be in the | :17:12. | :17:17. | |
fiscal union treaty which has been redesigned by the call Eurozone | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
states. -- prisoner voting. What we have got to face, this is not a | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
status quo we are voting to stay in, it is a continuing development of | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
European Union integration, if you want to have choices, you must vote | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
Leave. It has been reported that the campaign will campaign for Brexit. | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
LAUGHTER Would you welcome him leading the | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
campaign from the out? You have laughed... We would welcome him | :17:45. | :17:51. | |
joining the vote to leave campaign, but I don't think it is very likely, | :17:52. | :17:58. | |
at the moment he is convincing people he's being really tough but | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
we know that this is what happens in all EU negotiations, the government | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
pretends to be tough, pretends to be a showdown, and in the end, hey | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
presto, rabbit out of the hat, everything is marvellous. Game set | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
and match for the British. Is there any thing, do you think, that Iain | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
Duncan Smith will be able to sell once this renegotiation is done and | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
dusted? Sell to the backbench... ? I doubt it, I think... As Bernard has | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
suggested, in January, 2013, when David Cameron talked about | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
renegotiation, he meant something sweeping, even in addition to the | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
thing is Bernard has mentioned, even including flirting with the idea of | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
some deep reform to European free movement, that was what was being | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
suggested two years ago. There is not going to be anything approaching | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
any of that in any deal that urges early next year. As it stands a | :18:49. | :18:52. | |
number of backbenchers will find that hard to support. Tactic from | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
Downing Street, to leak the idea that David Cameron might conceivably | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
support the leave campaign, slightly misjudged, so transparent the | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
obvious that he will not. If anything, it was a message sent to | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
other European capitals, " if I don't do that smack if you do not do | :19:12. | :19:18. | |
this deal, I may join the sceptics. -- if you do not do this deal". I | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
agree with Jan, nobody will take seriously the idea that he will | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
campaign for out because fundamentally that is not what he | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
believes, he wants to stay in and has said seven the beginning. | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
Bernard is right, there is a feeling that the renegotiation will only | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
achieve something rather cosmetic. -- and has said so since the | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
beginning. David Cameron may pull a rabbit out of a hat and pretend that | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
he has got a concession but people will not be convinced. I leave it to | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
Nick to stick up for the Prime Minister in this particular | :19:54. | :19:55. | |
instance, what would the rabbit in the hat, the rabbit coming out of | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
the hat, be, for David Cameron, once this deal is done and dusted. It | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
will be examined as rabbit, because we will know about it! He cannot go | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
beyond what he wrote in the letter to Donald Tusk, the rabbit that he | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
takes out of a hat which says, isn't this amazing, isn't opt out from the | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
historic commitment to ever closer union, he will say it is | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
significant... He will say it has an impact on the European Court of | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
judgment rulings, but the point is, first, we know that is what he wants | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
to achieve, and also, people like Bernard, and we can see he is | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
nodding (!), he will say this is just a cosmetic change, it is not | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
going to change the fundamental privacy of EU law over EU law. -- | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
fundamental primacy of EU law over UK law. If there were a concession | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
fundamental primacy of EU law over on in work benefits, many people | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
feel that is impossible, bearing in mind the laws, would that satisfy | :20:53. | :20:58. | |
you? It would not, in the end, the European Court of Justice will | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
always have the power to overturn Teva has been agreed, the problem | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
the Prime Minister has got, he started at the beginning with | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
grappling with quite some big things, but refusing to argue with | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
the overall architecture of the European Union. -- grappling with | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
some quite big things. If you do not change the architecture, nothing | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
will really change, except that the European Union will carry on | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
morphing into a state and we will be part of that, whether we are in out | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
of the Euro, ever closer treaty in the treaty -- ever closer union in | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
the treaty, not in the treaty, whatever. Thank you very much for | :21:35. | :21:36. | |
joining us. The real substance being debated | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
by MPs in the Commons on Wednesday may have been whether to extend air | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
strikes into Syria but it was the conflict inside | :21:46. | :21:47. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's party that ended up | :21:48. | :21:49. | |
grabbing just as many headlines. Even when the party finally arrived | :21:50. | :21:51. | |
at a position, it couldn't heal the rift between | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
the leader and some of his MPs. The party received | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
a much-needed boost with a comfortable majority | :21:59. | :22:00. | |
in Thursday's by-election. So when it comes to Jeremy Corbyn's | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
Labour, just what do the voters | :22:04. | :22:05. | |
make of it all? Labour won the old by-election and | :22:06. | :22:17. | |
comfortable, there are majority was reduced but they increased their | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
share of the vote, Jeremy Corbyn says it shows that Labour is | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
electoral. We, with the help of the pollen company populace, have | :22:26. | :22:27. | |
gathered together a group of people that once voted Labour but did not | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
at the last election. We are going to hear of what they think of the | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
new Labour Party and behind this screen, we have two seasoned Labour | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
advisers to pass comment on what they hear. Vets get started. -- | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
polling company Populous. -- let's get started. All of the former | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
Labour voters are from London, and at the general election they spread | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
their approach to Ukip, the greens, conservatives and Lib Dem, all of | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
them felt Labour lost their vote over the economy, Ed Miliband and | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
being out of touch. What do they make of Labour today? -- Greens. | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
They are moving in the right direction, with a charismatic | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
leader, whose policies seem to be standing up for the average man. I | :23:11. | :23:22. | |
disagree, no disrespect, for me, I am quite a middle ground person, | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
going from the left to the right, they have gone far too left for me. | :23:28. | :23:34. | |
For me they are unelectable. He is very principled, I respect him for | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
that but I do not agree with his policies, particularly defence. | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
Initial impressions? Did people know who he was before he became the | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
Labour leader? I had not. Had you heard of him? I had heard of him... | :23:50. | :23:56. | |
He seems principled, compassionate... He has used a term, | :23:57. | :24:01. | |
the new politics... Have you heard that? Yes... Do you know what he | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
means? Not specifically, I presume he means a different attitude | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
towards leading the party and the way they make decisions perhaps. | :24:15. | :24:21. | |
It goes back to the same problem, if you have a vague catchphrase and no | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
substance behind it... Maybe I am not seeing the strong leadership -- | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
leadership capability, I understand he's principled, but as a leader of | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
the country, I am not convinced. Does that sound like a good way of | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
changing things, giving them more freedom in the way that they vote? | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
It brings a more human feel, does not feel like everyone is a robot, | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
all of us in this room, we could all be voting for Labour but we would | :24:51. | :24:53. | |
all have different opinions on things. That is... That is a human, | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
you know, that is human nature. I think the fact that is being | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
respected, that is good. But, keeping it in line, how he's going | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
to manage that, that may be a problem. That woman has some up the | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
nub of the problem! That is pretty much their position right now. This | :25:16. | :25:24. | |
is a video clip... I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy in | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
general, I think that is quite dangerous. That is woolly. You | :25:30. | :25:40. | |
cannot go from principled to Willy and evasive, that is a problem. -- | :25:41. | :25:47. | |
woolly and evasive. You need crystal clear clarity on security issues. | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
You need to give somebody a bit of time, let them lace up their running | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
shoes (!), they find their own pace, and they get a little bit of time. | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
It is early days, he has just started in the job. In time, he will | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
show, you know, a lot of strength will stop courage, I think. Why not | :26:10. | :26:19. | |
vote Labour this time? -- a lot of strength and courage. Labour was | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
giving benefits left right and centre, if somebody needs them, | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
fine, but they were in so much debt, the country was getting further and | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
further into debt. There was no end to it. Do you know the if Jeremy | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
Corbyn and John Madonna's government would spend more money, would they | :26:38. | :26:44. | |
put up taxes? -- do you know if they Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
government. I bet there is not a single specific about how it is | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
different. Despite the debate about austerity. They have not mentioned | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
that word once. The fact Labour have not articulated anything... They | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
have asked a leading question, so not to give that response, that | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
suggest, well,... We will not make up our minds... We do not know... | :27:12. | :27:18. | |
These people are not the British electorate, nor can they alone give | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
Labour a victory, but there will be plenty to note, as lost Labour | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
voters, they seem prepared to give Labour and Jeremy Corbyn time to bed | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
in. STUDIO: And I'm joined in the studio | :27:30. | :27:35. | |
now by the Shadow Work and Pensions | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
secretary, Owen Smith. We have had plenty of evidence from | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
the pollsters, you saw and heard some of it, at the last election | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
Labour was not trusted on the economy, particularly when it came | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
to managing the welfare bill, do you think you are on the way to learning | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
that trust? If you take the evidence of the poll that matters, the poll | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
with the people, looking at Oldham, then perhaps we are winning back | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
trust. There is no doubt we did not have it at the last election, that | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
is why Labour lost and lost badly, but we did win a victory on Thursday | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
in Oldham, up 10%, the Tories were down 10%. Perhaps we are in the | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
foothills of starting to win back trust. I recognise and Jeremy Ross | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
recognises we have a long way to go, almost five years until the next | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
election and we will have to put in place policies and ideas to win back | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
trust fully. -- Jeremy recognises. It was a Labour victory but that is | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
a Labour heartland, you should not be surprised that you did well | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
somewhere like Oldham, that is despite the policies of the national | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
party, you could say, it you could say it is because of a strong Labour | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
parliament, that is not a Nuneaton which you need to win back. But in | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
the media we were talking about lots of suggestions that Labour was going | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
to lose that seat, or if we win, we would win only by 1000. Labour MPs | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
themselves were saying that! That is my point. But the pollsters were | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
certainly saying in their view, we were likely to struggle. For us to | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
hold it as well as we did, increase the share of the vote from last time | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
around, 11,000 majority, you cannot say anything other than it was a | :29:18. | :29:18. | |
good victory for Labour. I think it say anything other than it was a | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
has to be a vindication both of Jim McMahon, the excellent candidate, | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
now the MP for old, a good local guy who has been a council leader, very | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
well respected. -- Oldham. The kind of community-based politicians that | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
we produce in labour. -- community rooted politicians. But also a | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
vindication of Jeremy Corbyn and the rebuilding of trust. Nobody in | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
Oldham can be in any doubts as to who is the leader of the Labour | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
Party right now! Let's talk about welfare, we heard | :29:49. | :29:58. | |
the lady saying Labour was giving benefits left, right and centre and | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
leaving the country in so much debt, how do you address that? Well, I | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
think we've got to start by doing what we did not do well enough under | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
the last parliament which is call out the line from the Tory party | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
that the dead this country were in and are still in, let's not forget | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
the Tories have practically doubled debt. Let's talk about welfare | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
specifically. Happy to. The Labour Party under Harriet Harman clearly | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
felt it should move closer to the Conservatives on welfare and not | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
further away, the party did not vote against their bill introducing ?12 | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
billion of saving and Harriet Harman said she was sympathetic to lowering | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
the benefits cap. You did not vote against the limit on child tax | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
credits for two children. In that vote we definitely were wrong and | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
that's why Labour has now voted against the welfare bill, and the | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
reason for that is the reason many people in this country, I | :30:56. | :31:34. | |
And a Labour Party to be abstaining on whether we make people, working | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
people put in this country. People want the Labour Party to stand up. | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
What is your evidence for seeing that people want you to do that. | :31:47. | :31:52. | |
Harriet Harman announced that did not oppose limiting tax credits to | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
two children because we cannot say to the public that you were wrong at | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
the election. Who is representing the people? Wii .2 Heidi Allen, who | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
you have on the programme later on, or any of the other 30 or so Tory | :32:07. | :32:12. | |
MPs boosted up against their own Prime Minister a few weeks ago, | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
saying they had got it wrong on tax credits. Let's have a look... The | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
Tories described that as welfare spending. That was part of their ?12 | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
million election spending. It is legitimate for me to speak about | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
that. You said people want us to do this. I'm trying to get the evidence | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
for that. Yes, on tax credits, but more broadly on Labour's perception | :32:39. | :32:44. | |
of people of labour with welfare. We have seen leaks from opinion polling | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
in which people said that Labour was in thrall to the undeserving. It | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
needs to be for middle-class voters, not just down and outs, and the | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
Labour win would have been good for people on benefits and immigrants, | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
anyone claiming money. How will you win an election is people only see | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
you is representing those groups? We have got to win an election because | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
those groups and low and middle income earners in Britain, the very | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
people being hit by tax credit cards and now the universal credit cards | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
coming on stream next year, they need a Labour government in order to | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
introduce fairness. They also want to know that we are in favour of | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
reform. There is no doubt about that. We lose the evidence? This is | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
your own focus groups and opinion polling. It is not in line with what | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
the public want or the way that they view you. That is what I have said. | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
In addition to supporting in work benefits for people in low and | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
middle income jobs like tax credits and universal credit, we need to be | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
making an argument for a reform of the wider system. Do you accept your | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
not doing that? We are starting to do that. In the New Year I will be | :34:00. | :34:03. | |
announcing a big commissioned by the Labour Party to look at Social | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
Security, to present a Labour alternative for a reform Social | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
Security system. For generations people have increasingly become | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
mistrustful of the Social Security system. They think it is unfair and | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
inefficient, under Labour and Tory. We need to win back the trust of | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
people in it we cause it should be a massive positive for the country | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
that we have a generous welfare state. Which policy decisions so far | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
are going to back up that idea of reform rather than people's idea | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
that only four people on benefits if you're trying to broaden your | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
appeal? You have talked about tax credits but if you want to lower the | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
benefit cap, if you do not want to limit tax credits, which policy | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
areas back up what you have said about reform? We have said clearly | :34:55. | :35:00. | |
that we support the government in capping the overall spending on | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
social security, so they have introduced the cab. And the benefit | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
cap? The benefit cap, interestingly, we have reserved judgment on that. | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
Only two weeks ago... That was not your view? Let me finish, please. We | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
had an opinion from a judge in London that the benefit cap was | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
discriminating against disabled people. There is further evidence | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
that it is is not doing what the government set out to do. It is not | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
saving money. Local councils are having to spend money on | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
discretionary housing payments to support people who been made | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
homeless as a result of it. Only around 4% of people seem to be | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
getting any benefit. What is this benefit cap for? We need to have a | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
limit on the amount of money that people can have individually. And as | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
households. It has to reflect need. That is important. It sounded like | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
you wanted to drop the idea of the benefit cap in principle. You still | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
support the idea of the benefit cap at ?26,000 a year? We do not. You | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
did supported at the election. At the election, we did and since then, | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
we have changed our view. Cutting it to ?23,000, from ?26,000, which is | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
what was included in the Welfare Bill, it is very complicated, that | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
would mean it would affect millions of people across Britain. What | :36:32. | :36:38. | |
should be cap be? We need to get back to principle that people use to | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
understand, the connection between the sort of support you might | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
receive from the state, the amount of money you contribute, getting | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
back to connection between contribution and reward. Also, it | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
needs. If you have got three children are you fall pregnant in a | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
period when you lose your job, you do not get penalised for having that | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
third child. It seems extraordinary that the government is penalising | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
people. You're not supporting the cap, you cannot give me a figure? | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
You are now reviewing the whole policy. You agree with Jeremy | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
Corbyn, it resulted in social cleansing? We said shortly after the | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
election we would oppose the reduction. That is not true. When I | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
spoke to your last, you said you were going to stick to the principle | :37:29. | :37:33. | |
of a benefit cap? I did not. You did. You said in September you | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
wanted to have the benefit cap in principle, you did not agree to | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
lowering it to 23000 and Jeremy Corbyn was against it. I said that | :37:43. | :37:51. | |
we were reviewing the concept of the benefit cap across the board. What | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
that we do except there have to be limits on the amount of money that | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
an individual household can get in benefits. We need to get to a point | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
where we have a much fairer set of criteria to analyse and understand | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
why we should be giving family eggs and not the other family. That | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
should reflect the number of children they have got, the nature | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
of work they are in, the relative security of that family, fundamental | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
principles we have at your two. Most viewers will not understand a | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
government that says that they will penalised children and take money | :38:29. | :38:32. | |
away from them on the basis of how many children you have. You did at | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
stain on that issue earlier. But you have changed your mind. In terms of | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
Shadow Cabinet colleagues, should your colleagues worry about being | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
sacked? I do not think they should be. I am not in charge of | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
reshuffles. That is a job for Jeremy. This is newspaper tittle | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
tattle. From what I have seen of the way that Jeremy has handled this in | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Shadow Cabinet, he has been keen to stress that we have to be respectful | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
of the different views. I voted against, others voted in favour. Any | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
abuse that anyone has been subject to as a result of decisions taken in | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
good faith is disgraceful. We should not settle for it or allow it in the | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
Labour Party. Thank you very much. It has just gone 11:40am. | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
MPs vote overwhelmingly to extend air strikes into Syria, but the SNP | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
So where does it leave the party now? | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
We'll put that to SNP MP Stephen Gethins. | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
Nicola Sturgeon will represent Scotland at the climate change talks | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
in Paris, but critics say the government's record | :39:57. | :39:57. | |
The First Minister tells the international community she has the | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
most ambitious targets in the world but will she remember to tell them | :40:07. | :40:09. | |
that she has not hit those targets once? | :40:10. | :40:10. | |
And it's 25 years since Margaret Thatcher stood down | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
SNP MPs took to Twitter and other social media swiftly | :40:13. | :40:25. | |
after Wednesday's Commons vote to extend air strikes to Syria, | :40:26. | :40:28. | |
to disassociate themselves from the decision. | :40:29. | :40:33. | |
All 54 Nationalist MPs voted against the motion with the First Minister | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
saying beforehand that giving them a free vote on the issue was | :40:37. | :40:38. | |
unnecessary as "everybody" in the party's parliamentary group agreed | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
that the case for air strikes had not been made. But with the | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
government at Westminster securing a significant majority for action, | :40:45. | :40:46. | |
Does it show a genuine fault line north and south of the border? | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
Well, joining us from London is SNP MP Stephen Gethins, who sits on the | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
Good morning. There seem to be some suggestions that the fact the SNP | :40:56. | :41:11. | |
did not vote for this meant it was somehow illegitimate in Scotland. | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
Can you explain what your party members were trying to say? 57 out | :41:15. | :41:20. | |
of 59 Scottish MPs, remember that the sole Labour MPs voted against | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
this as well. We are saying that a great chunk of ours voted against | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
bombing action in Syria because it was not the right thing to do. It is | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
a slightly odd argument to make. The reason there are so many SNP MPs for | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
a start is because of the first past the post system that you profess to | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
profoundly disagree with. We still do. It might benefit us now but we | :41:46. | :41:51. | |
still disagree with that. To say that somehow or other this is | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
illegitimate for Westminster to vote under behalf of Scotland on this | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
issue, because you have so many MPs because of the system that you have | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
accepted as a legitimate, that is a very peculiar writer meant. The | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
Westminster Parliament has responsibility over foreign affairs. | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
I'm in favour of independence. The Westminster Parliament has voted for | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
military action. I do not think it is the right decision and as part of | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
the Foreign Affairs Committee I have been arguing about this for months | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
and looking at the facts. Now we are in this situation, we need to get | :42:25. | :42:32. | |
behind our service personnel who are involved in that. Again, have you | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
any evidence that opinion, opinion is clearly divided on this issue | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
throughout Britain, is there any evidence that Scotland is | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
different? I think people have different views on this. I said in | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
the chamber this week, unlike David Cameron I respect people on both | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
sides. People voted for air strike is who did so for very legitimate | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
reasons. I disagree with them. My mailbox is full of people who | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
disagree with this as well based on the fact that we have. The only | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
opinion poll that was not an Internet opinion poll was done by | :43:06. | :43:12. | |
YouGov. It was 50-50. 44% of people in Scotland were in favour of air | :43:13. | :43:20. | |
strikes, 41% were against. You get different opinion polls but I have | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
had something like 100-1, 100-1 in terms of responses in my mailbox | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
from people who disagree what we are doing. We look at the military | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
impact and diplomatic initiatives, we looked at the legality and found | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
the case had not been made. This was a fact -based argument. Over the | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
last couple of weeks, the city of Sinjar has been retaken by Kurdish | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
forces from IS. It is widely accepted, including by the Kurdish | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
forces themselves, they could not have done that without the support | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
of American air power. Why was it wrong for American air power to | :44:05. | :44:11. | |
help? Sinjar was one of the towns populated by UCD is, who faced the | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
prospect of mass execution. Nobody said it was wrong. We said there was | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
a need for long-term strategy. You voted against the use of air power | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
in Iraq. This goes to the heart of the issue. There are no ground | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
troops at the moment. There are no ground troops to take Raqqa. A few | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
months ago, you voted against using the RAF in Iraq. I said there should | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
be a long-term strategy. You voted against using air power in Iraq. We | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
voted against because there was no long-term strategy. Why was it wrong | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
for air power to be used to liberate Sinjar? There needs to be a | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
long-term strategy and ground troops. There are no ground troops | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
in Syria. If I were living in Sinjar, and I heard what you had | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
said, I would but be impressed. I might well be saying, I am extremely | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
glad that the cards have taken over Sinjar. | :45:15. | :45:20. | |
Because you have Kurdish round true. The party previously noted | :45:21. | :45:31. | |
against grand strategy. -- Kurdish true is. You have no exit strategy | :45:32. | :45:43. | |
but you have got ground troops. Last week in Parliament beware debating | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
about the fact we had no round troops. I'll hope I am wrong and | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
that just air strikes work in putting an end to Daesh but I do not | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
think that will be the case. Other experts do not think that will be | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
the case either. Argue against the United States and France bombing in | :46:05. | :46:12. | |
Syria? I think without a long-term plan, you need some kind of | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
long-term plan here. We quite deliberately narrowly looked at the | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
UK cause that is the Avia we are looking at what the needs to be a | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
long-term plan. With the United States and France and other places | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
you need a long-term plan because I struggle to see the difference air | :46:33. | :46:38. | |
strikes will make. You are looking to liberate Sinjar because you were | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
worried about British troops being used the. We have form about taking | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
military action which was a disaster in Libya, in Iraq and did not work | :46:50. | :46:57. | |
well in Afghanistan either. You voted for bombing Libya. That did | :46:58. | :47:04. | |
not pan out too well because of the long-term effects. This is something | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
the MoD have to answer questions on. We spent ?25 million on | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
reconstruction in Libya. For every ?30 we spent bombing he spent ?1 on | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
reconstruction and for me those numbers should have been the wrong | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
way round. It could have been a humanitarian situation on the | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
ground. What we probably should have done was interrogate further. That | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
is over what the long-term plans where. This is a mistake the MoD | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
have made time after time from Iraq on words. It is a field you to have | :47:43. | :47:48. | |
a long-term plan in strategy. When you talk about the context of | :47:49. | :47:51. | |
extending the bombing plane into Syria, what is the construction of? | :47:52. | :48:00. | |
This is why diplomats and is so important. And the Siena process. | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
You need some kind of agreement between BBN process partners. -- | :48:07. | :48:15. | |
Vienna process. Everyone wants to see an end to Daesh but bombing is | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
not the way to do it. Either the spread of poisonous propaganda. When | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
you are talking about reconstruction... Reconstruction has | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
become and you have to have a long-term plan. I am talking about | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
the commitment of 20 two 30 years. You talk about reconstruction of the | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
Syrian state is that it is around. We were gradually talking about | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
Libya a moment ago. You cannot create a vacuum. No one is | :48:50. | :48:55. | |
suggesting using military action against a sad and the Syrian state. | :48:56. | :49:03. | |
The wearer two years ago. We have changed their minds now. Daesh | :49:04. | :49:11. | |
President Assad. The lack of being for reconstruction for something | :49:12. | :49:17. | |
nobody is proposing to bomb is a reason for attacking, that seems | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
wrong. You need a long-term plan and commitment. That has to be the | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
lesson. If we have learned anything from the disaster in Iraq it has to | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
be that you need to win the peace as well as having won the military | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
conflict. You need to start planning that from the moment you enter into | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
the military conflict. We need to end the year, thank you for joining | :49:43. | :49:44. | |
us. 25 years ago, Margaret Thatcher | :49:45. | :49:46. | |
was beginning a new career. After 11 years at Number 10, | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
her behaviour and her policies were concerning colleagues, as they | :49:50. | :49:51. | |
feared for the Conservatives' As she complained about " | :49:52. | :49:53. | |
treachery with a smile on its face", But she was safe | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
in the knowledge that she'd made her A quarter of a century on, | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
our political correspondent, And steal food to differing now in | :50:02. | :50:18. | |
Ravenscraig. Now the busy ?52 million sports centre. It is a | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
world-class centre we have put on the site of Ravenscraig and we have | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
a wide scope of events taking place, local, Scottish, European. It has | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
had a fantastic response. Heavy industry declined and collapsed in | :50:37. | :50:44. | |
the 1970s, it 80s and Ravenscraig chat in the 1990s. Arguments still | :50:45. | :50:49. | |
rage about who is to blame for the failures. A generation of critics | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
blame one person. We are leaving Downing Street for the first time | :50:56. | :51:04. | |
after 11 and a half wonderful years. Wonderful for some but not others. | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
Many in Scotland made their voices heard particularly over the | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
introduction of the poll tax. A symbol that she feel to get | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
Scotland. For Scotland industrial devastation, social disaster and | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
politically she paved the way for a devastation, social disaster and | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
new kind of Scotland. At the end of the day that might be a big plus but | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
it has been a very, very heavy price Scotland as paid. The big plus the | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
say is this please. The Scottish Parliament. There is a view that she | :51:42. | :51:51. | |
left another political legacy, too. Scotland are still seen as second | :51:52. | :51:54. | |
best which I think is to do with Mrs Thatcher. I suspect that for a long | :51:55. | :52:01. | |
time to come the those naughty lot the Tories can do about it. The | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
Conservatives who have been in the party for quite some time argue Mrs | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Thatcher had a hard job and she did it well. It was the time of great | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
economic and social change which was painful for people but in the 1970s | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
the economy was backward and outdated and needed modernised. At | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
the end of Margaret Hatcher was my DD den offers we had the much more | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
diverse party with opportunities articulate for young people. I will | :52:32. | :52:40. | |
hand out where as a little broken. Our right to buy policy was hugely | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
popular, an instrument of social change. Some say it would be fair to | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
reassess our legacy and combat the mess. Ravenscraig she did not shut, | :52:51. | :52:58. | |
it shot up after she had moved on. Now wanted have kept it open. It was | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
not making steel competitively. The mythology of fracture lives on and | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
people continue to hate her but frankly they should be grateful for | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
Margaret Thatcher. It depends on your point of view but one thing has | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
not changed, when to five years on we are still talking about Margaret | :53:20. | :53:20. | |
Thatcher. The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon, | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
will be in Paris tomorrow, to attend this year's UN climate change | :53:25. | :53:27. | |
conference as it enters its crucial, Governments from around the world | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
are attempting to thrash out a deal Meanwhile, at home, | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
the Scottish government has faced renewed criticism over | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
its failure to achieve its own On Thursday, | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
Labour leader Kezia Dugdale used First Minister's Questions to attack | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
the government's record. She is going to Paris to show our | :53:42. | :53:57. | |
world leading targets set the benchmark the world community needs | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
to match. This parliament unanimously set those targets in | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
2009 so when the First Minister tell the international community she had | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
the most ambitious targets in the world will she remember to tell them | :54:11. | :54:17. | |
she has not let those targets once. I would encourage Kezia Dugdale to | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
study in some detail of the facts and information around this. In | :54:22. | :54:25. | |
particular I would encourage her, I hope she can continue to come | :54:26. | :54:31. | |
together, as one on this global issue, that when we set a target for | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
2013 in 2010, the reduction in carbon that we anticipated at that | :54:39. | :54:46. | |
time was 31.7%, that was the target we anticipated we would have do | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
reduce emissions by. What we have achieved is 30.4% from the 1990 | :54:50. | :54:58. | |
baseline. The only reason why that means we still have not met the | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
target is because of the increases to that baseline. Fixed annual | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
targets were mess because of improvements to the way the data was | :55:07. | :55:12. | |
calculated which added megatons to the 1990 baseline. | :55:13. | :55:16. | |
Let's cross to the French capital now, and join BBC Scotland's | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
environment correspondent, David Miller, who'll be covering | :55:20. | :55:20. | |
First on these talks more generally, Copenhagen was a complete | :55:21. | :55:31. | |
wash-out, is there any reason to suspect this will be more positive? | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
That is putting it mildly in terms of Copenhagen. All the signs that | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
this speech, the midway point at this weeks summit are indicating | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
real progress has been made. We are right a very different ways to that | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
which raised us back in Copenhagen in 2009. Vince the world leaders | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
departed Paris at the start of the week when they came in to get this | :55:58. | :56:03. | |
conference on the road, delegates from 195 countries have been working | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
steadfastly to come up with a draft text to present to ministers when | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
they arrive here tomorrow. That work is completed in the words of the | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
French climate ambassador, nothing has been decided and nothing will be | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
left behind. She said this text marks the well of all to reach an | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
agreement. Clearly there are major stumbling blocks which remain and in | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
particular over the next few days we have to keep a very close eye on | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
negotiations between the developed world and the developing world. We | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
are seeing real division beer as always that these summits but | :56:46. | :56:53. | |
particularly here over who has two cut and make the biggest sacrifices | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
and crucially over who he is the most. What does Nicholas Durden | :56:58. | :57:05. | |
think she can bring to the party? The First Minister we heard still | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
believes Scotland has a positive story to tell. Still believes | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
Cortland can lead by example. The real danger here is we constantly | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
parrot this line about Scotland's world leading climate change targets | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
and perhaps we give ourselves too large a part on the back. That is | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
certainly the argument of Kezia Dugdale as we have heard and it is | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
interesting that when you come to these climate summits you do tend to | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
get the white from international delegates who generally genuinely | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
are interested in those Scottish targets, 80% by 2050, they are very | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
ambitious targets which still attract attention internationally. | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
Yes, of course, Scotland is failing to hit those international targets | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
but the growing of confidence among Scottish Government ministers and | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
their advisers and statisticians and the Scottish Government that | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
Scotland is very definitely on track to hit that 42% target. The is still | :58:15. | :58:22. | |
interest in Scotland's story and Nicholas to urge and will be using | :58:23. | :58:25. | |
that example to encourage others to act. -- Nicola Sturgeon. The | :58:26. | :58:34. | |
resonant port of way of implementing those policies around the world and | :58:35. | :58:38. | |
B will hear more tomorrow from the First Minister about the work of the | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
states and impact and how that is helping deliver climate change | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
policies internationally. She will also be talking about climate | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
justice to make sure the world's oeuvres people are not most likely | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
to suffer climate change consequences most acutely. Despite | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
having had the lowest emissions over centuries. Thank you for joining us. | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
Last Thursday was International Day Of Disabled People. | :59:12. | :59:13. | |
In recognition of under-representation | :59:14. | :59:14. | |
in political life, the Scottish government announced | :59:15. | :59:15. | |
The aim is to identify barriers people with disabilities face | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
Some rules have already been changed concerning disabled candidate | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
This pilot project will hopefully lead to improved representation | :59:24. | :59:30. | |
in elections in Scotland over the next couple of years. | :59:31. | :59:32. | |
Jack Ashton lead, who's no longer with us, and bang, former | :59:33. | :59:47. | |
Westminster MP, David Blunkett, retired, and Robertson, current MSP. | :59:48. | :59:55. | |
All political figures with a disability. 20% of Scotland's | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
population has a disability. Campaigners say they are | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
underrepresented in politics. A pilot project launched last week by | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
the Scottish Government hopes to put this right. The access politics | :00:09. | :00:17. | |
project aims to avoid practical, direct but not financial support for | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
disabled people to come forward and participate in democracy, elected | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
office in particular, overcome summing -- overcoming some of the | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
barriers, providing things like mentoring, opening up meetings and | :00:30. | :00:36. | |
documents to be more accessible. That is under the United Nations | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
Convention, it is recognised as a human rights. We want to make that | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
real. Inclusion Scotland, which represents people with | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
disabilities, will administer the community empowerment front. We hear | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
lots about a fairer Scotland, about democratic renewal participation, | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
has labelled people having the right to be involved in all aspects of | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
society and that most definitely includes politics and political | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
representation. They want a UK budget to support people with | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
disabilities into politics, at the access to elected office fund has | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
been stopped as it was underused. That fund really only kicked in when | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
someone wanted to stand to be selected to be a candidate. By the | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
time you got to that point, the likelihood is you will have already | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
found a way around all manner of barriers. It was ticking into late | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
in the process. Of the 129 MSPs in the building behind me, only six of | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
them have declared having a disability. To be representative of | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
Scotland it would have to be 26. Only four out of 650 MPs at | :01:50. | :01:55. | |
Westminster have declared a disability. Can I give you a leaflet | :01:56. | :02:02. | |
for the SNP? One in five was set up to encourage greater participation | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
in politics. The group, which covers all political parties, campaigned | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
for this new Scottish initiative. The good news about the pilot | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
project is it will be an opportunity for disabled people across Scotland | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
to flag up the interest to Inclusion Scotland and take advantage of the | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
support they can offer. As something like this has never been done | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
before, we will have to wait and see what the results are. If many people | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
put their names forward for the support, I am confident we will be | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
able to continue and this will lead to the creation of the access to | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
elected office fund which will break down the main barrier disabled | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
people face, Finance. It is not always about the money. Some | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
potential candidates believe that different ways of working could make | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
a difference. I have several disabilities, some potential | :02:56. | :02:56. | |
candidates believe that different ways of working could make a | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
difference. I have several disabilities, summer for me, the | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
barrier is that the job is completely inflexible. If we could | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
have shared workloads and teleconferencing, it would make the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
job more easy for me to get involved. During this pilot period, | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
Inclusion Scotland 120 with people from disabilities who are interested | :03:21. | :03:21. | |
in a political career. It's time to look back over | :03:22. | :03:23. | |
the events of the week and look Joining me now is the Scotsman | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
journalist and political commentator Joyce McMillan, | :03:27. | :03:34. | |
and the former special advisor to the SNP and public relations | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
consultant Kevin Pringle. Obviously, Joyce, Syria has been | :03:37. | :03:47. | |
dominant. At the end of it, do you think anything has advanced or gone | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
backwards? Britain is now involved in that bombing campaign, for better | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
or worse and that is the political reality that everyone has to deal | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
with. It has been a fairly thorough debate, to be fair. On the side of | :04:03. | :04:11. | |
the pro-bombers, it has been a very emotional debate. Hilary Benn's much | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
discussed speech struck me as being 90% emotion. Its appeal was very | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
faint historical analogies, and one that was ridiculous in the case of | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
the International Brigade, but delivered with emotion, the need for | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
Britain to be part of the struggle against fascism. It was acclaimed in | :04:34. | :04:42. | |
the hothouse of Westminster. All the talk was this is some sort of huge | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
moment in parliamentary history. I just wonder if it was. We are | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
already involved in an IVF campaign in Iraq. Britain is already involved | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
in so many different strands of this, humanitarian, diplomatic, to | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
other aspects of the military. Germany made a decision this week to | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
send a few vessels. They will not take part in direct combat but they | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
will be involved. I do not believe that whole line of the argument. One | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
of the problems with these kinds of discussions in the UK context is | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
that people overestimate the significance of our role. We have a | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
role to play. We are not a small country, but 12 planes, it will | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
might be make or break for any west and effort anywhere. It would help | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
us to make more rational decisions if we were to get a sense of | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
proportion. There was a double-stranded, Kevin, it was | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
partly about military action, but the results were sense that this is | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
about having a seat at the top table. The supporters of bombing | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
would say, it is not two different things. If you want to be taken | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
seriously in the diplomatic process in Vienna, you have to be seen to be | :06:00. | :06:06. | |
part of the coalition which is now fairly broad. I think Joyce is | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
right. That narrative comes through too often in such issues. It was | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
similar when Trident was debated recently in the House of Commons. As | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
well as the actual case for Trident, which I do not think exists, rather | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
than any military rationale, what comes across all the time is the | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
political, the diplomatic need for the UK to have clout. There was an | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
analogy between that debate and the debate on Syria this week. It seemed | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
to not be settled on the military realities but on the issue of | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
Clyde. Is that not a valid argument? I do not think it is. If | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
you're going into military campaign, sending servicemen and women into | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
conflict, the case has got to be signed on military grounds. This one | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
is not. The fatal flaw, and I think this is a point that Stephen Gethins | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
made earlier, there is no credible ground force they are. One of the | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
good aspects of the debate in the House of Commons was a good expose | :07:07. | :07:13. | |
in that particular regard the floor in the Prime Minister's case. That | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
aspect of the ground force was not in the government motion, the fact | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
there are supposedly 70,000 moderate troops. They are not there. It is | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
like saying unless something retail scenario exists, which is never | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
going to exist, we will do nothing? We use that as an excuse? It is not | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
about doing nothing, it is about doing what is effective. It would be | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
highly effective to starve -- of funding. They are extraordinarily | :07:42. | :07:53. | |
wealthy. -- starve Daesh. We could do a lot through the banking | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
system. The military case was lost because of the spurious diplomatic | :07:59. | :08:07. | |
clout adamant. -- argument. Labour got bound up in this whole Syria | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
thing and then they seemed to bounce back at the end of the week against | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
everyone's expectations with the by-election victory. It was a very | :08:16. | :08:25. | |
interesting results. I thought that Labour did not do well out of the | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
debate on Syria because they appeared so divided, even if some of | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
them were making pretty strong arguments on either side. There you | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
go. Obviously the voters they did not seem to mind so much about | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
Labour are being divided. It was a very low turnout. I wonder if there | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
is an element, this thing that parties cannot be divided, it is | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
something that political commentators say. When you speak to | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
people about this issue, they seem to be more interested in the issue | :09:00. | :09:04. | |
of Syria. They say, if people have different views, that is fine. The | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
important thing is who is right and who's wrong, not whether are | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
divided. That is an interesting question that we do not know the | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
answer to yet. Historically being divided has not served political | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
parties well. One of the interesting things about Jeremy Corbyn is that | :09:24. | :09:26. | |
he is trying to change the language of it. He is trying to speak in a | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
different way about having debates within the party and the rest of it. | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
Admittedly it has turned nasty this week, for similar reasons to what | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
happened during the independence referendum campaign, where one | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
particular side was smeared by association with a few loudmouths on | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
the Internet. That is not Jeremy Corbyn's line. He may be succeeding | :09:49. | :09:55. | |
in making people think how much they value unity in a party, and how much | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
of a party, and how much they value honesty. Kevin, you used to be a | :10:01. | :10:07. | |
spin doctor. If you were advising Jeremy Corbyn, what would you be | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
seeing? Would you be saying, we cannot have this division? I think | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
you have got to lead. What Joyce says is correct, and obviously the | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
by-election was successful, probably for a mix of local and national | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
reasons, arguably more local because the candidate was a particularly | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
strong local candidate. Certainly the national dimension did no harm. | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
The very least that Jeremy Corbyn supporters can say is, hang on a | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
minute, everyone said having this man as leader would be a disaster, | :10:40. | :10:45. | |
even in our core areas. Irrespective of whether Corbyn can win in the | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
south of England, the very least Corbyn supporters can say is that | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
you were wrong when you said that we could not even win over our | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
traditional heartland. Clearly Labour can win in traditional areas | :11:00. | :11:01. | |
like Oldham. It was well served by Labour can win in traditional areas | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
Michael Meacher for a long time. The candidate now seems to be | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
particularly strong. That is OK in terms of where we are now. As we get | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
closer to the next general election, in 2020, at that point Jeremy Corbyn | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
has got to be a leader, he has got to lead. We will be well beyond the | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
time from letting everybody say everything they like. There will | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
come a time where there has to be collective Shadow Cabinet | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
responsibility. That is an essential aspect for any government in | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
waiting. Between now and 2020, Jeremy Corbyn has got to be a leader | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
in the true sense of the term. I do not know if we have got the front | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
page, but there was a story in the mail today. SNP hypocrites. He was | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
involved in some sort of Jimmy Carter style tax avoidance. What did | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
you make of this? He is saying that the kind of package he had, with tax | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
avoidance, not illegal invasion, it was standard in the industry that he | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
was working in at the time. We have heard that before. That is what he | :12:14. | :12:22. | |
says. Now he is not in that industry, he will use his knowledge | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
of that to try and get them to change the regulations so that | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
people like the person he used to be cannot get away with it any more. | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
That is the line. That is rather wonderful. He appears to be saying, | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
because I was involved in this, I will use it to slack off the British | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
government because I have inside knowledge. He would not be the first | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
poacher turned gamekeeper. It seems to be alone that has been repaid. | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
There is a desire to make it another story about an SNP MSP. I am not | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
sure it really measures up. There is no suggestion that Mr Boswell has | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
done anything illegal. It is an attempt. I would have thought that | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
there were bigger issue is this week to put on the front page. The | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
climate change conference, very briefly, are you optimistic? Yes, I | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
think there is a view that the international community has got to | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
arrive at a deal this time. It did not do before. I think Scotland can | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
have a role to play by influence. Eurosceptical. I would say it is | :13:29. | :13:35. | |
pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will. It is hard to believe | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
they will do anything that will make a difference but we have to believe | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
that we can try. OK. That is all we have time for this week. | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
I'll be back at the same time next week. | :13:48. | :13:50. |