29/11/2015 Sunday Politics Scotland


29/11/2015

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Liam Fox and George Galloway discuss air strikes, and Lord Falconer talks about Labour.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 29/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning and welcome. Government issues its plan for air strikes in

:00:44.:00:56.

Syria. We will hear from Liam Fox and the Respect party leader George

:00:57.:01:01.

Galloway. Jeremy Corbyn is struggling to get his way over Syria

:01:02.:01:04.

as he tries to persuade his Shadow Cabinet. We will hear from the

:01:05.:01:12.

Shadow Justice Secretary. And the former Conservative Party chairman

:01:13.:01:13.

Grant Shapps resigns from the government or allegations he failed

:01:14.:01:18.

to act over bullying claims inside the Tory party. Is that the end of

:01:19.:01:20.

the story? And coming up on

:01:21.:01:22.

Sunday Politics Scotland: As heads of state gather

:01:23.:01:24.

for climate change talks in Paris, the UK Government cuts funding

:01:25.:01:27.

for new technology which could So, yesterday,

:01:28.:01:29.

former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps resigned from

:01:30.:01:41.

the Government over allegations he failed to act on claims of bullying

:01:42.:01:45.

in the youth wing of the party. It's a complicated story,

:01:46.:01:49.

as Giles Dilnot explains. Grant Shapps, former co-chair

:01:50.:01:52.

of the Conservative Party and now a former minister, must wish

:01:53.:01:58.

as his senior aide Paul Abbot Clarke once tipped for the top

:01:59.:02:04.

by Tatler magazine unsuccessfully As a result of his behaviour

:02:05.:02:23.

during that campaign, about which complaints were made, he

:02:24.:02:27.

was taken off the candidates list. A girlfriend at the time declaring

:02:28.:02:30.

he was "unfit to be an MP". In early 2014,

:02:31.:02:37.

Mr Clarke approached the Conservatives and Grant Shapps

:02:38.:02:39.

in particular with an idea. It was simple, bus loads of young

:02:40.:02:41.

Tory activists to marginal seats during the 2015 general election

:02:42.:02:48.

campaign to doorstep constituents. In the face of of unshifting polls,

:02:49.:02:51.

the idea appealed to Conservative Central Headquarters but they

:02:52.:02:57.

wanted to have some control over it. Grant Shapps decided not only to

:02:58.:03:01.

back the idea, but help pay for it, and put Clarke in charge

:03:02.:03:04.

of the operation. never met are you going to be a part

:03:05.:03:09.

of this? -- are you going to be? Roadtrip 2015,

:03:10.:03:19.

as the plan was called, had another motive for Clarke, to see him back

:03:20.:03:21.

on the Conservative candidate list and perhaps he would have and this

:03:22.:03:24.

story ended if not for the apparent suicide in mid-September

:03:25.:03:27.

of a young activist called Elliot Johnson, who left a note, naming

:03:28.:03:29.

Mark Clarke as someone who'd been bullying him and a secret recording

:03:30.:03:32.

of Clarke challenging him in a pub. In the wake of Elliot Johnson's

:03:33.:03:35.

death, lurid allegations emerged about Clarke, alleging sexual

:03:36.:03:38.

misconduct, drugs, intimidation, blackmail and bullying connected to

:03:39.:03:39.

Roadtrip, all denied by Mark Clarke. But August e-mail exchanges

:03:40.:03:51.

between Mr Clarke and Mr Shapps' aide Paul Abbot show Mr Abbott was

:03:52.:03:53.

aware of complaints Nothing was done and since Mr Shapps

:03:54.:03:55.

gave Clarke an official Party role he has now resigned saying

:03:56.:04:03.

"the buck stops with me". The Prime Minister says a full

:04:04.:04:05.

internal investigation is under way. Elliot Johnson's father wants an

:04:06.:04:10.

independent external investigation. The most serious allegations

:04:11.:04:15.

about Clarke were made after Grant Shapps had been moved to

:04:16.:04:17.

a junior ministerial position and Lord Feldman, David Cameron's

:04:18.:04:23.

chief fundraiser and close friend, He says the party cannot find

:04:24.:04:26.

nor was aware of any written If, by falling on his sword,

:04:27.:04:32.

Mr Shapps hoped to stop the scandal spreading,

:04:33.:04:38.

he may actually only have become The Sunday Politics panel is here.

:04:39.:04:57.

Nick, here is the case for Shapps. He has been made a scapegoat. This

:04:58.:05:03.

is not the end of the story. I think it is not the end of the story.

:05:04.:05:08.

Grant Shapps did sign up Mark Clark to do this. I think it is getting

:05:09.:05:12.

awfully close to the door of Andrew Feldman. They went -- he went to

:05:13.:05:22.

college with the Prime Minister and organised some balls. They go back a

:05:23.:05:28.

long way. The road trip was run out of Conservative campaign

:05:29.:05:30.

headquarters in the run-up to the general election. Most significantly

:05:31.:05:32.

for Andrew Feldman, he signed the for Andrew Feldman, he signed the

:05:33.:05:36.

checks to allow the road trip to take place. We're not talking small

:05:37.:05:42.

cheques, we are talking many hundreds of thousands of pounds.

:05:43.:05:45.

Grant Shapps was in charge of it on a day-to-day basis but Andrew

:05:46.:05:58.

Feldman and his sister helped the running of the road trip. What it

:05:59.:06:02.

does is put the attention onto some of the attention onto summary the

:06:03.:06:07.

attention would be, what did Andrew Feldman do? What did he know and

:06:08.:06:13.

when and what did he do? What we have to remember is Baroness Warsi,

:06:14.:06:17.

who was co-chairman, kicked this guy out of the party. Feldman was

:06:18.:06:22.

Chairman Ben and Shapps brought him out of the party. Feldman was

:06:23.:06:27.

back. Feldman was co-chairman and Feldman is still the chairman now.

:06:28.:06:30.

In terms of the party, what some people were saying to me yesterday,

:06:31.:06:35.

actually, it cannot be seen that Cameron is protecting Lord Fellman

:06:36.:06:44.

-- Feldman because he is his friend. He has got questions to answer. I

:06:45.:06:49.

also think that if people who are in the party feel these questions are

:06:50.:06:54.

not being answered, and it is not an open process, loads more leaks will

:06:55.:06:59.

come out and it will get messier and messier and messier. It is a rum do,

:07:00.:07:06.

what was going on inside the Tory Party in its youth wing. Multiple

:07:07.:07:12.

allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. Culminating in this

:07:13.:07:15.

young man taking his life on a railway line. It is an appalling

:07:16.:07:22.

thing. There is a history of unusual behaviour amongst Conservative

:07:23.:07:25.

students going back to the 1980s when Norman Tebbit closed down the

:07:26.:07:28.

Confederation of Conservative students. It is the most extreme

:07:29.:07:37.

incident I have ever encountered. This is about personal behaviour.

:07:38.:07:43.

The parents of Elliott Johnson raised an important question of

:07:44.:07:46.

chronology. Grant Shapps stop being co-chairman in May. Some of the

:07:47.:07:51.

allegations against Mark Clark, some of the complaints surfaced as

:07:52.:08:00.

recently as August. There is a deeper structural problem, which is

:08:01.:08:04.

the Conservative Party does not have activists. They have to find them

:08:05.:08:10.

where they can get them. Or, when summary has a reputation as bad as

:08:11.:08:14.

Mark Clark, they end up going along with them because options are so

:08:15.:08:19.

limited. It will not be the end of the story.

:08:20.:08:21.

David Cameron is expected to ask MPs to approve UK air strikes

:08:22.:08:24.

The Government thinks it now has enough support to risk a vote

:08:25.:08:28.

in the Commons, even though the Labour Party is still unclear.

:08:29.:08:31.

And the PM will almost certainly need Labour votes to get his way.

:08:32.:08:34.

Mr Corbyn is still trying to rally his Shadow Cabinet and Labour MPs

:08:35.:08:37.

He told Andrew Marr they should recognise his direct mandate

:08:38.:08:40.

And so what I've done is what I said I would always do,

:08:41.:08:44.

I would try to democratise the way the party does things.

:08:45.:08:47.

Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party members, and actually,

:08:48.:08:49.

70,000 have already replied with their views.

:08:50.:08:53.

I don't know what all the views are, obviously, I haven't read them all,

:08:54.:08:56.

Surely we must recognise that in a democracy, the Labour Party has

:08:57.:09:04.

a very large membership, nearly 400,000 members, they have a right

:09:05.:09:07.

to express their point of view and MPs have to listen to it and have to

:09:08.:09:11.

try and understand what's going on in the minds

:09:12.:09:13.

I've been joined by Charlie Falconer, Jeremy Corbyn's

:09:14.:09:24.

Are you minded to support government on the subject of Syrian air

:09:25.:09:37.

strikes? I am. Then need to be assurances, given to the House of

:09:38.:09:38.

Commons but I am minded to support assurances, given to the House of

:09:39.:09:42.

air strikes. The reason I am, I think Isil poses a threat to the

:09:43.:09:48.

region and also Europe, including the United Kingdom. I believe air

:09:49.:09:53.

strikes over Iraq and Syria are having an effect on reducing that

:09:54.:09:58.

risk. I think it is wrong that we are participating in Syria when what

:09:59.:10:02.

is going on is we are trying to defend the United Kingdom. I believe

:10:03.:10:06.

the only long-term solution is there needs to be a solution to the Syrian

:10:07.:10:12.

civil war and the bombing of cracker will not significantly contribute to

:10:13.:10:22.

that. -- Raqqa. I believe we do not have a choice. The likelihood is

:10:23.:10:26.

that the Shadow Cabinet will agree a collective position in this matter.

:10:27.:10:32.

There are honourably held collective views. The Shadow Cabinet on

:10:33.:10:37.

Thursday, they were appropriately discussing. Everybody was conscious

:10:38.:10:44.

of the fact we have to reach a conclusion in national interests.

:10:45.:10:47.

With an issue like this where there is agreement on the factual

:10:48.:10:50.

material, international law, the final judgment, there is such a

:10:51.:11:00.

difficult decision to be made, it is not surprising that our

:11:01.:11:04.

disagreements in the Shadow Cabinet. It is unlikely that tomorrow you

:11:05.:11:08.

will be able to agree a collective line. I think that is right. It is

:11:09.:11:16.

unlikely we'll be able to agree a yes or no answer to the question the

:11:17.:11:21.

Government is about to post. If it does not and there is a free vote

:11:22.:11:27.

for this among Labour MPs, it does make it certain that Mr Cameron will

:11:28.:11:35.

win by a convincing majority. I do not know the position. I think

:11:36.:11:42.

everyone is weighing up the merits of the argument. The right thing to

:11:43.:11:45.

do is for mothers of the Parliamentary Labour Party members

:11:46.:11:48.

of the Shadow Cabinet to consider all the arguments and reach a

:11:49.:11:52.

conclusion as to what they think is in the national interest. It is

:11:53.:11:57.

clear that enough Labour MPs will abstain or side with the Government

:11:58.:12:01.

to give Mr Cameron a majority, even if that are some Tory defectors. If

:12:02.:12:07.

the position where it was whipped against by the Labour Party, that

:12:08.:12:11.

with very significantly reduce the chances if it were a free vote. I do

:12:12.:12:13.

with very significantly reduce the not know what the final figures

:12:14.:12:18.

would be. Your figures sound right. Should there be a free vote? What is

:12:19.:12:22.

the alternative given the position you are into a free vote? My own

:12:23.:12:27.

view is I do not think this very important issue should be allowed to

:12:28.:12:33.

be a situation that forces resignations on people. I think the

:12:34.:12:37.

right course is, if the Shadow Cabinet cannot come to a collective

:12:38.:12:41.

view, and I accept that maybe unlikely, probably the best course

:12:42.:12:46.

is a free vote. That is ultimately for the leadership to decide. For an

:12:47.:12:51.

opposition which aspires to government when you're not a

:12:52.:12:55.

debating society. You are the opposition, the alternative

:12:56.:12:59.

government. What would voters think if you cannot agree a collective

:13:00.:13:03.

position on something as important as war? What the Government be

:13:04.:13:15.

seeing is a legitimate debate. The public is like the Parliamentary

:13:16.:13:17.

Labour Party and like the saddo Cabinet, of different views. You

:13:18.:13:21.

need to come to a collective view. We need to know your view on this.

:13:22.:13:27.

The differences with this is I do not think it will be possible. I do

:13:28.:13:32.

not think that is surprising. That reflects the debate that is going on

:13:33.:13:35.

in the country. The debate going on in the country is going on within

:13:36.:13:41.

the Labour Party. If Mr Corbyn was to attempt, and he said this morning

:13:42.:13:46.

it is his decision to whip or not. If there were a decision to whip

:13:47.:13:50.

Labour members to vote against bombing, would that be a resignation

:13:51.:13:57.

matter for you? I do not want to comment on that. I very much hope

:13:58.:14:01.

any sort of resignations will be avoided. I think the position will

:14:02.:14:05.

be we will have a further discussion on Monday and a collective you will

:14:06.:14:07.

be we will have a further discussion be reached as to how we go forward

:14:08.:14:12.

in relation to the progress. One Labour MP told us that Mr Corbyn's

:14:13.:14:16.

and of this vote seems to him like a deliberate search for a fight and he

:14:17.:14:22.

is very disappointed. I do not agree. The key thing about what is

:14:23.:14:26.

happening now is not who sent a letter when. The key thing which the

:14:27.:14:31.

public want us to debate is the question itself. Should we support

:14:32.:14:35.

air strikes or not? I think the important thing about this week will

:14:36.:14:40.

not be who said what to whom but will be where you stood on the

:14:41.:14:46.

issue. It is one of those issues where the judgment about what was

:14:47.:14:50.

right and what was wrong will not come on the basis of the politics of

:14:51.:14:56.

these few days. It will come on what happens going forward. What was the

:14:57.:15:02.

right decision? Let me ask you this. We do not have much time. Because

:15:03.:15:07.

you are a lawyer and an expert on the Labour Party, if Labour MPs

:15:08.:15:12.

sought to unseat Mr Corbyn, and there is some wild talk around on

:15:13.:15:17.

that, witty automatically be on the ballot paper of a new leadership

:15:18.:15:22.

election? I have not addressed that. It is not a moment to talk about any

:15:23.:15:27.

sort of leadership challenge. Jeremy Corbyn is leader. He was elected two

:15:28.:15:32.

months ago with a huge mandate. That is the position within the Labour

:15:33.:15:36.

Party and that is where we have to address it. It can hardly be a

:15:37.:15:40.

stable position to have a Labour leader, in such a key issue has

:15:41.:15:45.

bombing in Syria, at odds with a huge chunk of his Shadow Cabinet

:15:46.:15:49.

rest room at that position is unsustainable over the period. It

:15:50.:15:56.

was absolutely clear when Jeremy was elected, there were significant

:15:57.:15:58.

disagreements between Jeremy and others on policy. What is happening

:15:59.:16:02.

is the Labour Party is holding together. So far.

:16:03.:16:09.

So, once again a British government is gearing up extend military action

:16:10.:16:14.

It's a well-trod road and the outcome has not always been

:16:15.:16:19.

predictable, or pleasant, which is why so many are hesitant.

:16:20.:16:22.

Ellie Price has been looking at the Prime Minister's case

:16:23.:16:24.

for action, and what role the UK military might play.

:16:25.:16:26.

That bomb in Paris, that could have been London.

:16:27.:16:33.

If they had their way, it would be London.

:16:34.:16:35.

I can't stand here and say we're safe

:16:36.:16:37.

I can't stand here either and say we will remove the threat

:16:38.:16:45.

that taking action will degrade and reduce that threat over time?

:16:46.:16:47.

Absolutely, and I've examined my conscience

:16:48.:16:49.

David Cameron says he no longer wants to outsource this sort

:16:50.:16:56.

Britain is currently involved in air strikes against so-called Islamic

:16:57.:17:01.

State, but only in Iraq, shown here in the bottom half of this shot.

:17:02.:17:06.

The border, for British forces at least, is crucial.

:17:07.:17:11.

IS, Isis, Daesh - whatever you want to call it - control or is free to

:17:12.:17:16.

operate in swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria.

:17:17.:17:21.

Its so-called caliphate stretches from Aleppo in Syria to

:17:22.:17:24.

The lines on the map are relatively fluid, it recently lost control

:17:25.:17:30.

That was down to Kurdish forces with the help of US-led air strikes.

:17:31.:17:37.

Currently Australia, Canada and France are also flying

:17:38.:17:40.

bombing missions over both countries, targeting IS.

:17:41.:17:45.

According to the latest figures released on Friday,

:17:46.:17:49.

the US and its allies operating under the banner of Operation

:17:50.:17:51.

Inherent Resolve have conducted more than 8,500 air strikes against

:17:52.:17:56.

Islamic State targets since the start of the campaign last year.

:17:57.:18:01.

That's 5,580 air strikes in Iraq and 2,925 in Syria.

:18:02.:18:07.

More than 16,000 targets have been damaged or destroyed,

:18:08.:18:10.

including more than 4,500 buildings, nearly 5,000 fighting positions, and

:18:11.:18:16.

The vast majority have come from US aircraft, but the RAF has run 376

:18:17.:18:23.

They've been launched from this base in Cyprus, where

:18:24.:18:30.

The base has also been used to carry out refuelling and

:18:31.:18:36.

The perception out there is the question as to whether or not

:18:37.:18:42.

the UK should be involved in the campaign in Syria or not.

:18:43.:18:45.

The reality is we are involved in that campaign but in an inconsistent

:18:46.:18:49.

Other countries, our allies, the Americans and French

:18:50.:19:04.

in particular, just don't quite understand where we are up to.

:19:05.:19:07.

The PM insists the RAF can provide specific skills

:19:08.:19:09.

that coalition partners are keen to make the most of.

:19:10.:19:12.

The ability to launch highly accurate Brimstone missiles.

:19:13.:19:13.

We are very good at not killing people collaterally,

:19:14.:19:16.

the UK, so in that sense I think us moving into Syria is good.

:19:17.:19:19.

The sad thing is that no matter how good you are, there will be innocent

:19:20.:19:23.

people killed but they are dying anyway because of Isil, and it's

:19:24.:19:28.

coming to the stage where you have to move forward and do things, even

:19:29.:19:31.

though that sort of thing happens, that cannot be

:19:32.:19:34.

Of course Russia is also involved in air strikes in Syria,

:19:35.:19:38.

but its support of President Assad's regime puts it at odds with

:19:39.:19:41.

The scale of these tensions demonstrated when Turkey,

:19:42.:19:48.

which vehemently opposes Assad, shot down a Russian plane last week.

:19:49.:19:54.

Most experts agree that air strikes alone will not destroy the common

:19:55.:19:57.

enemy of IS, that ground forces will be needed, but agreeing on exactly

:19:58.:20:02.

who those forces would be, could prove the biggest obstacle to peace.

:20:03.:20:07.

We are joined now by George Galloway. What should be done to

:20:08.:20:30.

thwart Islamic State, if not British bombing, what should be done to hit

:20:31.:20:35.

it in its heartland? Most of these terrorist attacks were carried out

:20:36.:20:38.

by people living in the countries in which they operated, Tunisia,

:20:39.:20:46.

France, Belgium and so on so you will not physically stop people

:20:47.:20:50.

bombing Raqqa turning up on the streets of Paris. But the planning

:20:51.:20:58.

involved Islamic State. There's not much logistics involved in taking

:20:59.:21:05.

arms into a nightclub and killing innocent people. There are many

:21:06.:21:09.

weapons in Europe, nobody is suggesting these weapons came from

:21:10.:21:14.

Syria. I don't want to dodge your question, I must strongly in favour

:21:15.:21:18.

of destroying Isis and Al-Qaeda as anybody else, more than the David

:21:19.:21:23.

Cameron government or they wouldn't be tolerating a situation where

:21:24.:21:27.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been supporting these people for years

:21:28.:21:34.

and until now are supporting them. We are steeped in blog so far but it

:21:35.:21:40.

is bloodier to go on, I promise you. What would you do? I would support

:21:41.:21:46.

the people fighting Isis and Al-Qaeda on the ground. The wide PG

:21:47.:22:01.

militia -- YPG militia. Give them weapons, every kind of support we

:22:02.:22:09.

can. It is a far better way than us joining in. Do you support Russian

:22:10.:22:17.

attacks on the anti-Assad forces in Syria? Yes, if they are coordinated

:22:18.:22:25.

with the Syrian government's army. So do you support British attacks on

:22:26.:22:32.

Islamic State forces in Iraq at their request of the Iraq

:22:33.:22:37.

government? I do, and if they were coordinated with the Government that

:22:38.:22:41.

make sense militarily, and if we coordinated our involvement with

:22:42.:22:45.

Russia and the Is this the camera not realise that

:22:46.:23:22.

if eating Islamic State is more important than getting rid of Mr

:23:23.:23:29.

Assad. I do not believe that. Is utterly farcical claim in the House

:23:30.:23:34.

this week that there were 70,000 moderate rebels armed and rebel to

:23:35.:23:43.

take over the land. There is not 7000. If there are 700 I would be

:23:44.:23:50.

surprised. What will happen, we will bomb territory that will then be

:23:51.:23:53.

taken by other so-called moderate fanatic 's. The ones that as I said

:23:54.:23:59.

to you before, only caught off half your head. Should we regard the

:24:00.:24:06.

Russians and Assad regime as our allies in the fight against Islamic

:24:07.:24:10.

State? Definitely. And we had the chance after the Security Council

:24:11.:24:16.

decided, we had that chance. But that was incinerated by Allied Mr

:24:17.:24:25.

Erdogan and the Russian air force -- Turkish air force bombing these

:24:26.:24:27.

people out of the sky and provoking a crisis between East and West,

:24:28.:24:30.

between Nato and Russia which was completely unnecessary and

:24:31.:24:34.

completely contrary to any legitimate war aims. Did not still

:24:35.:24:41.

be put together despite that? I wish that it would, I suspect it will

:24:42.:24:44.

not. Russia is taking measures against Turkey. If we had time to

:24:45.:24:49.

discuss that I would elaborate this point. Turkey is the source of this

:24:50.:24:52.

problem. The Turkish border has been open to these people, they are

:24:53.:24:55.

selling their stolen oil, billions of dollars worth. Islamic State

:24:56.:25:02.

selling its oil to Turkey? Yes, it is being sold in Turkey, I believe

:25:03.:25:11.

relatives of Mr Erdogan, it is then sold on to neighbouring countries.

:25:12.:25:15.

You cannot be serious about fighting Isil while you're Nato ally is

:25:16.:25:20.

openly collaborating with them. That is why I suspect Cameron. You

:25:21.:25:23.

followed very closely what is going on in the Labour Party at the

:25:24.:25:28.

moment. Does Jeremy Corbyn have an alternative to a free vote when this

:25:29.:25:33.

comes up to a vote in the Commons? Yellow magnifier were him I would

:25:34.:25:36.

hope the vote, because his enemies, and they are in perpetual rebellion

:25:37.:25:44.

to overthrow Jeremy Corbyn. Five Jeremy Corbyn this is the Touraine

:25:45.:25:49.

on which I would fight because our record on intervention in the Middle

:25:50.:25:52.

East is so bad, the likelihood of it not going well is so high. I would

:25:53.:25:59.

dearly is rebels to facilitate David Cameron's war. Without not rip apart

:26:00.:26:05.

the Labour Party? Or would that be the intention? It kind of looks to

:26:06.:26:10.

me like it is ripping itself apart. This is 1931 revisited, Mrs Ramsay

:26:11.:26:15.

MacDonald in reverse, the leader remaining loyal to the party and the

:26:16.:26:20.

MPs effectively joining in national government in times of War and peace

:26:21.:26:24.

at least. If I were Jeremy Corbyn I would hope this boat and let the

:26:25.:26:30.

Labour members pass verdict on those that trip into the lobby with Liam

:26:31.:26:35.

Fox and David Cameron because I'm pretty sure this will not end well.

:26:36.:26:40.

Even at the expense of ripping apart your Shadow Cabinet? You would be

:26:41.:26:45.

ripping a Shadow Cabinet weather seems to be a majority against the

:26:46.:26:50.

position of Jeremy Corbyn. Some of them might surprise you with their

:26:51.:26:57.

Fidelity, but they are supporting the elected leader as the rope

:26:58.:27:01.

supporting hanging man. The hanging man is asphyxiated in the end. What

:27:02.:27:06.

are the chances of Jeremy Corbyn following your advice? Probably not,

:27:07.:27:12.

listening to John Dunlop and Ken Livingstone, they are going to go

:27:13.:27:16.

for a free vote. That will merely postpone the push. It will give Mr

:27:17.:27:23.

Cameron in the majority and will only postpone the push against

:27:24.:27:27.

Jeremy Corbyn. George Galloway, thank you for being with us. At this

:27:28.:27:31.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:27:32.:27:36.

As heads of state gather for climate change talks in Paris,

:27:37.:27:41.

the UK Government cuts funding for new technology which could

:27:42.:27:44.

And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military

:27:45.:27:52.

You cannot develop the first project easily without government backing.

:27:53.:27:55.

And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military

:27:56.:27:59.

action in Syria this week - will he get support from Labour MPs?

:28:00.:28:02.

As global CO2 emissions continue to rise, heads of state from around

:28:03.:28:07.

the world are arriving in Paris for UN climate change talks, where

:28:08.:28:12.

That comes at the end of a week in which the UK Government scrapped

:28:13.:28:17.

a ?1 billion competition to develop the country's first plant to store

:28:18.:28:20.

emissions instead of releasing them into the air,

:28:21.:28:22.

UK ministers said the programme was a victim of ongoing spending cuts

:28:23.:28:29.

needed to balance the books, but supporters of the technology say

:28:30.:28:34.

For generations, power stations are provided it reliable and relatively

:28:35.:28:49.

cheap way to keep the lights on. But now it seems that they are becoming

:28:50.:28:53.

a term as dirty as the pollution they released into the atmosphere.

:28:54.:28:58.

Storing that pollution, known as carbon capture, has been hailed as a

:28:59.:29:05.

solution to the problem. The process involves piping the carbon dioxide

:29:06.:29:08.

produced by places like coal power stations offshore where it can be

:29:09.:29:13.

stored in the space left by a former oil or gas field. The North Sea's

:29:14.:29:21.

massive CO2 storage potential means Scotland could be at the forefront

:29:22.:29:27.

of this technology. In 2013 project at Peterhead power station by Shell

:29:28.:29:33.

and SSE was named as one of two preferred bidder is anyone billion

:29:34.:29:36.

pound UK Government contest to develop carbon capture. It shows

:29:37.:29:42.

that the UK's leading in the low Carbon challenge to tackle climate

:29:43.:29:46.

change and get clean energy. But this week the UK Government

:29:47.:29:48.

announced it was scrapping that support as part of its spending

:29:49.:29:52.

review, and some argue that is bad news for the chances of getting

:29:53.:29:57.

carbon capture up and running. You cannot develop the first project

:29:58.:30:01.

easily without government backing because any first project is usually

:30:02.:30:05.

much more expensive than follow-on project because you are over

:30:06.:30:07.

designing and overengineering, and that is why that government help of

:30:08.:30:14.

the billion pounds is needed. To not venture down this path when it is

:30:15.:30:17.

clearly shown that carbon capture and storage is by far the best

:30:18.:30:20.

financial benefit to the whole economy, to not venture down that

:30:21.:30:25.

path is negligent, naive and also deceitful in the way it has been

:30:26.:30:32.

done. We have been here before. Ministers delayed stand accused of

:30:33.:30:35.

bungling and incompetence over the cancellation of a project to fight

:30:36.:30:42.

global warming. In 2007 BP abandon plans for a carbon capture plan at

:30:43.:30:46.

Peterhead, blaming Westminster delays. A similar plan for Longannet

:30:47.:30:50.

in Fife went the same way four years later when ministers failed to reach

:30:51.:30:56.

a deal with power companies. And in September, an energy firm abandoned

:30:57.:31:00.

its stake in a project to store carbon dioxide mixed its plant in

:31:01.:31:04.

North Yorkshire. That came after a government decision to cut renewable

:31:05.:31:09.

energy subsidies. And while carbon capture has the ability to

:31:10.:31:12.

dramatically reduce emissions, environmental campaigners are

:31:13.:31:16.

cautious about something which continues the burning of fossil

:31:17.:31:21.

fuels. Carbon capture and storage may have a role to play, but we do

:31:22.:31:26.

not know. We do not know how commercially or technically

:31:27.:31:29.

efficient it will be. Do not know how long-term trust can be developed

:31:30.:31:35.

in the reservoirs into which CO2 would be injected, how long it would

:31:36.:31:38.

stay there. That we are happy to see the research happen. Now that the UK

:31:39.:31:43.

has pulled the plug on that, we need to be very clear that Scotland's

:31:44.:31:47.

future potential, our ability to get back on track and start meeting

:31:48.:31:50.

those climate change targets is based on building a low carbon

:31:51.:31:56.

infrastructure and rolling out -- ruling out the burning of fossil

:31:57.:32:01.

fuels. What chance is there of carbon capture coming to this

:32:02.:32:04.

country? Following the announcement this week, one of the partners in

:32:05.:32:08.

the Peterhead Project, Shell, said that without its funding its

:32:09.:32:11.

proposals were not viable for no. And that presents another project,

:32:12.:32:16.

because if coal power stations begin closing because they cannot cut CO2

:32:17.:32:21.

emissions, we need to find another way to keep the lights on. UK

:32:22.:32:29.

ministers want to see a move away from coal towards gas-fired power

:32:30.:32:33.

stations, although they still see a potential role for carbon capture.

:32:34.:32:38.

As for the now-defunct Willian Penn support fund, that has been put down

:32:39.:32:41.

to a need to balance the government's looks. -- the ?1

:32:42.:32:47.

billion aboard fund. Ministers will attend climate talks in Paris next

:32:48.:32:52.

week. As they discuss how to tackle the problem, the world's CO2

:32:53.:32:54.

emissions continue to rise. We asked the Secretary of State for

:32:55.:32:56.

Energy and Climate change, Amber Rudd, and the Minister of State,

:32:57.:33:01.

Andrea Leadsom, for an interview, The Department of Energy and

:33:02.:33:03.

Climate Change told us the decision to cut funding for CCS was a fiscal

:33:04.:33:09.

one, announced by the Chancellor. We also asked the Conservative Party

:33:10.:33:16.

for an interview on this issue But I'm pleased to say we are joined

:33:17.:33:32.

from Stornoway by the SNP MP Angus MacNeil, who's Chair

:33:33.:33:38.

of Westminster's Energy and And in the studio, the Scottish

:33:39.:33:40.

Greens' Patrick Harvie and the former Labour MP and Shadow Energy

:33:41.:33:45.

Minister Tom Greatrex, who's now Angus, can I start with some factual

:33:46.:34:00.

questions to you. It is unfortunate but do not have anyone from the

:34:01.:34:05.

Government here, but this was not announced by George Osborne, it was

:34:06.:34:08.

not even in the Redbook documents, it was in an announcement to the

:34:09.:34:14.

stock exchange which came after the Chancellor sat down after his Autumn

:34:15.:34:18.

Statement. Have you received the new committee any explanation as to why

:34:19.:34:21.

this decision has been made? None whatsoever. It looks again like the

:34:22.:34:28.

government is fairly chaotic, one hand does not know what the other is

:34:29.:34:33.

up to. Only a few days before Amber Rudd had a speech there was no

:34:34.:34:37.

mention of this. It was not in the Autumn Statement, I went to the

:34:38.:34:39.

House of Commons library that evening with one of the researchers

:34:40.:34:42.

trawled through the documents and could not find anything. I should

:34:43.:34:48.

point out for viewers who are perhaps not familiar with the

:34:49.:34:50.

language of government documents, for the Department of energy to tell

:34:51.:34:55.

us in an e-mail that this was a fiscal decision made by the

:34:56.:34:59.

Chancellor, I don't know if you agree, but it seems to me that is as

:35:00.:35:04.

close as you will ever get to a government department saying, we did

:35:05.:35:07.

not necessarily agree with it and it had nothing to do with us! Correct,

:35:08.:35:13.

and would not be the first time, I do not think the new much in the

:35:14.:35:17.

Department, the story was first leaked to the Daily Telegraph of the

:35:18.:35:20.

intention is to cut support for onshore wind. If Scotland was

:35:21.:35:25.

independent it would never vote to be governed by this lot. What next?

:35:26.:35:32.

Who can have any trust in them? They are as slippery as seaweed. Before

:35:33.:35:38.

we get on to the substance of the issue, arguably this is a very

:35:39.:35:43.

unconservative thing to do. One of the things you want to do surely is

:35:44.:35:50.

respect contracts. I am not here on behalf of the Conservative Party.

:35:51.:35:55.

But is that an aspect of this? People will not necessarily have

:35:56.:35:58.

much sympathy with big oil companies, but the fact is they have

:35:59.:36:01.

sunk money into this and at the last moment have been told, that does not

:36:02.:36:05.

matter, this will not happen. Firstly, this is not new, the

:36:06.:36:10.

Treasury antipathy towards carbon capture and storage goes back, when

:36:11.:36:16.

the company pulled out of Longannet, and again that ?1 billion was moved

:36:17.:36:21.

away from the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Technically it

:36:22.:36:28.

has not sat there. One of the things they have said this week is that

:36:29.:36:31.

they want to start a competition for these new generation modular new

:36:32.:36:36.

clear power stations. Irrespective of whether you think that is a good

:36:37.:36:40.

idea, if you are energy company, you might be thinking, I will not invest

:36:41.:36:43.

money in this because they could do what they have just done with carbon

:36:44.:36:49.

capture. Absolutely. Just a few weeks short of the announcement of

:36:50.:36:52.

which of the two final project would win the competition, to then cut it

:36:53.:36:57.

away like that, quite apart from the merits of carbon capture technology,

:36:58.:37:01.

it sends a very bad signal to potential investors and is on top of

:37:02.:37:05.

a range of similar moves in other areas, and you can have debates

:37:06.:37:08.

about the merits of individual technologies, but the overall

:37:09.:37:12.

message it sends an terms of energy investment is very poor, and for the

:37:13.:37:18.

UK, our position which was very good in terms of energy investment, is

:37:19.:37:21.

deteriorating over time because the risk factor of sudden political

:37:22.:37:24.

change is so high, and in the Conservative Party manifesto they

:37:25.:37:28.

referred to ?1 billion for carbon capture and storage, and less than

:37:29.:37:34.

six months later it has gone. Patrick Harvie, are you not very

:37:35.:37:40.

keen on this? On carbon capture in principle? We are very keen, we are

:37:41.:37:45.

happy to see the research happen. Have never been convinced anybody,

:37:46.:37:48.

including government, should take that as it promised that the

:37:49.:37:51.

technology will be deployable on any set timescale. And both governments,

:37:52.:37:56.

Scottish and UK, have made the assumption they can design energy

:37:57.:37:59.

policy with that expectation that CCF will be available. You will have

:38:00.:38:04.

been in favour of the condition going ahead, of companies trying to

:38:05.:38:10.

develop this, but you do not want governments of any description to be

:38:11.:38:13.

forecasting by me change emission cuts on the basis of technology

:38:14.:38:19.

which has not been proven? To be building in plans of new fossil fuel

:38:20.:38:22.

power generation on the assumption they can then bolt on CCS at some

:38:23.:38:27.

future point. We have never known that would be a guaranteed

:38:28.:38:30.

possibility, it is certainly something we should be researching,

:38:31.:38:32.

something we should like to develop and find out what potential it has.

:38:33.:38:38.

But now that the Government has pulled the plug, it may happen in

:38:39.:38:42.

the long-term, it will not be short-term availability, so we need

:38:43.:38:46.

to rule out fossil fuel generation capacity. The other thing is that

:38:47.:38:54.

George Osborne wants to close coal-fired power station but once

:38:55.:38:58.

another generation of quick to build these power gas generating power

:38:59.:39:03.

stations. And in the short term that can reduce emissions. Over a

:39:04.:39:11.

long-term trajectory... You might disagree with that decision to go

:39:12.:39:14.

ahead, but given that that decision has been made, would it not make

:39:15.:39:18.

more sense, would it not be even more important to try to get CCS to

:39:19.:39:23.

mitigate the emissions from this new generation of power stations?

:39:24.:39:35.

The build new capacity you would need CCS. I would challenge the

:39:36.:39:44.

Scottish Government to rule out any additional fossil fuel power

:39:45.:39:48.

generating capacity and I would welcome it if they would give that

:39:49.:39:53.

clarity. And yes, I know the SMP would like to try to convince the

:39:54.:39:56.

government to change its mind on this. If you are going to have a new

:39:57.:40:01.

generation of gas-fired power stations you might as well try to

:40:02.:40:04.

mitigate the emissions but do you think you can win over the committee

:40:05.:40:09.

to Europe edition? I have a feeling that yes, the committee will be open

:40:10.:40:15.

to move towards that position. It is hard to speak for the committee

:40:16.:40:19.

itself. The chairman of the committee on climate change has said

:40:20.:40:24.

at the fifth cabinet budget launch on Thursday morning that to achieve

:40:25.:40:29.

the 2030 targets will be difficult and it is an issue with this ending

:40:30.:40:34.

of this project so abruptly. Tom's point was very good, the government

:40:35.:40:39.

are leaving huge uncertainty on onshore wind, the left uncertainty

:40:40.:40:43.

on solar, now there is uncertainty on carbon capture and storage. The

:40:44.:40:48.

problem is for investors. Some are calling to the Republic of Ireland

:40:49.:40:53.

to invest because of the feel of what is happening in the UK. This is

:40:54.:40:59.

the second time Peterhead has lost carbon capture and storage. Alistair

:41:00.:41:03.

Darling pulled the plug on an earlier project one decade ago. You

:41:04.:41:09.

are no longer an MP just getting at an opinion, you are cheered of this

:41:10.:41:13.

committee. What will you ask your committee to do about this if

:41:14.:41:17.

anything? At the moment the committee is having an investigation

:41:18.:41:23.

into investor confidence. We did not think it would be involved with the

:41:24.:41:26.

investigation at the outset, carbon capture, but we think it will be. We

:41:27.:41:31.

will be hearing from Shell during this and will have them what this

:41:32.:41:35.

means for their confidence and investing in energy issues and

:41:36.:41:38.

energy projects on the word of the UK Government. It is not for me to

:41:39.:41:43.

guess what they are going to say but I think it is obvious they will not

:41:44.:41:50.

be happy. Tom, is Patrick Hardy's point well made that what

:41:51.:41:55.

governments tend to do is assume these technologies will work then

:41:56.:42:00.

build that into their emission forecast? Carbon capture has not got

:42:01.:42:06.

any rear so far. It has in other places. In Canada and shortly in the

:42:07.:42:17.

US. The lazy operating dash there is operating a carbon capture plant in

:42:18.:42:22.

Saskatchewan. And it is another one similar to the project outside the

:42:23.:42:28.

competition in Grangemouth. Even our clients for carbon capture in China

:42:29.:42:32.

so the technology does exist. If it is the and being utilised why do we

:42:33.:42:37.

need a competition to see if the competition is feasible? The

:42:38.:42:43.

complexity comes with, you can capture the carbon, stored the

:42:44.:42:46.

carbon, we are in a strong position in terms of depleted offshore being

:42:47.:42:54.

able to store it. The transport can be complex depending on where you

:42:55.:42:57.

are in different sites. What is it that has too been open? Let's

:42:58.:43:04.

imagine Peterhead got this. It is a gas-fired power station taking gas

:43:05.:43:07.

from the North Sea and presumably can pump CO2 into empty wells. What

:43:08.:43:15.

is it that is not proven in the technology that is up and running

:43:16.:43:19.

that would have to be proven now? The one in Canada, it has been less

:43:20.:43:23.

than one year that it has been in operation and the one in the S -- US

:43:24.:43:30.

has been less than a year. They are parallel to the UK competition but

:43:31.:43:33.

there are different requirements that have to be satisfied. There

:43:34.:43:38.

will be value coming out of the competition as it is running in

:43:39.:43:42.

terms of the detailed feed studies that are running and there are

:43:43.:43:45.

potential projects in the UK outside of the UK competition. We would all

:43:46.:43:51.

agree the technology is not developed to the point with it as

:43:52.:43:56.

commercially available. What I find but, I would like to see the public

:43:57.:44:01.

sector and community sector take more ownership of this energy

:44:02.:44:06.

system. There needs to be consistency and clarity. We are

:44:07.:44:11.

running out of time. The panellists talks starting this week, Copenhagen

:44:12.:44:16.

was pretty much a wash-out in the middle of the financial crisis. It

:44:17.:44:24.

was overhyped. Do you have any greater hopes for Paris? I know we

:44:25.:44:28.

still have time to make a radical deal which leaves the bulk of our

:44:29.:44:32.

fossil fuels in the ground where they have two stay. Whether I am

:44:33.:44:37.

hopeful on not, I struggle. You struggle with hope? Angus, the same

:44:38.:44:43.

question to you? I think we're Paris is going at the moment, their

:44:44.:44:50.

intended contributions, it is not far enough but we get it hopeful is

:44:51.:44:55.

that the Americans and Chinese are together. My only problem is the

:44:56.:45:00.

American Senate and the Republicans. Again, very briefly, Tom? Since 2000

:45:01.:45:06.

and 966 countries at the climate change act or equivalent and I think

:45:07.:45:11.

it also aligns with people's domestic issues in China and Africa

:45:12.:45:14.

and places like think there is more scope for an agreement than the was

:45:15.:45:21.

in Copenhagen. It is a problem. To be discussed further. Thank you very

:45:22.:45:22.

much indeed. Now, the Defence Secretary Michael

:45:23.:45:26.

Fallon confirmed this morning that he's briefed some Labour MPs in

:45:27.:45:28.

an attempt to win their support for Mr Fallon told the Andrew Marr

:45:29.:45:31.

programme that the government would like to hold a vote on

:45:32.:45:37.

the issue this week but that it did Meanwhile the Labour leader Jeremy

:45:38.:45:40.

Corbyn has defended his decision to publically declare his opposition to

:45:41.:45:44.

action before the Shadow Cabinet He has not yet decided whether

:45:45.:45:49.

to allow his MPs a free vote. I'm joined from London by the

:45:50.:45:53.

Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, who's also Parliamentary Private

:45:54.:45:58.

Secretary to the Shadow Business Stephen as was discussed this

:45:59.:46:19.

morning, he has gone to see individual MPs, has he come to you?

:46:20.:46:24.

He has not come knocking on my door, I have been an Studios, maybe

:46:25.:46:28.

Michael has been trying to get through to me. Which way would you

:46:29.:46:34.

be inclined to vote? I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I

:46:35.:46:39.

agree we need to eradicate the modernist death cult that is Isis

:46:40.:46:45.

but we have to do that with a ground offensive. We will not be able to do

:46:46.:46:50.

that if we are discarded -- distracted by a real bombardments. I

:46:51.:46:54.

viewed the PM has put the cart before the horse. Let's get the

:46:55.:46:59.

politics right. We must get a regional force in place, taking Isis

:47:00.:47:03.

out, then I will be more than happy to support that initiative but as

:47:04.:47:09.

things stand I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I am planning to

:47:10.:47:15.

vote against unless the PM comes forward in the next hours with some

:47:16.:47:20.

much cleaner proposal in terms of getting a ground force together

:47:21.:47:28.

which will be taking Isis out. -- much clearer. You have been making

:47:29.:47:33.

out the problems with the strategy of the PM but we do not consider an

:47:34.:47:37.

argument that the damage to the international coalition emerging

:47:38.:47:42.

against Isis, it should they be a vote in the House of Commons against

:47:43.:47:47.

action, should trump some of the reservations you have. They are not

:47:48.:47:51.

necessarily incompatible with what David Cameron is planning to do, he

:47:52.:47:55.

would say he probably agrees with you in all this? I think we have a

:47:56.:48:01.

once in a generation opportunity now to bring the Russians and Iranians

:48:02.:48:05.

to the table. We are making real progress on Vienna full op adding

:48:06.:48:09.

more on this from the Earth to that distracts from the most promising

:48:10.:48:16.

pieces of this jigsaw puzzle which is that we could start to build a

:48:17.:48:22.

corporate coalition which takes the platform to take Isis out. I

:48:23.:48:28.

understand absolutely we need to make a gesture towards our brothers

:48:29.:48:32.

and sisters in France and to show solidarity, I do not actually think

:48:33.:48:36.

putting the cart before the horse is the best way to do that. This is not

:48:37.:48:42.

just an issue about Syria but it has become an issue about the Labour

:48:43.:48:48.

Party. What would you like to see Jeremy Corbyn do? Should he have a

:48:49.:48:53.

wet vote for your possession or should she allowed a free vote? --

:48:54.:49:02.

whipped. He should have come out within 24 hours of the PM statement

:49:03.:49:08.

to say he was not persuaded and to ask for a free vote. It is a matter

:49:09.:49:15.

of individual conscience, and extremely complex issue. A lot of my

:49:16.:49:19.

colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party are examining their

:49:20.:49:23.

consciences. It is not party political in the nature of Trident.

:49:24.:49:29.

I think we absolutely have to be whipped on Trident and I am in

:49:30.:49:32.

favour of maintaining a nuclear deterrent but on this issue which is

:49:33.:49:36.

on the immediate and complex decision on what to do in Syria, I

:49:37.:49:43.

think it is right it is an individual vote. I know we were

:49:44.:49:48.

whipped on Iraq and Libya but we have two say we have learned from

:49:49.:49:52.

Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan and therefore there is a case for an

:49:53.:50:05.

non-whipped vote on this occasion. This is not just about what Labour

:50:06.:50:09.

MPs do next week but about a credible party of government. If you

:50:10.:50:13.

wearing power now with Jeremy Corbyn as leader and the Conservative

:50:14.:50:18.

backbencher put forward a Private members motion for military action

:50:19.:50:22.

the House of Commons might well vote in favour of military action and the

:50:23.:50:26.

PM would be against it. That is what the public would see, these people

:50:27.:50:30.

all over the place. I have said part of this is a matter of conscience, I

:50:31.:50:36.

am also a realist about party management and the fact of the

:50:37.:50:42.

matter is it is very tough for Jeremy Corbyn. As an MP he is

:50:43.:50:48.

somebody who voted against the wet 550 times himself. His ability to

:50:49.:50:57.

whip the party, let's be realistic, call a spade a spade, it is very

:50:58.:51:01.

difficult for him to get the cohesion cause of his track record

:51:02.:51:06.

as an MP and that is a factor. I am realistic about that. I also think

:51:07.:51:11.

that is one of the reasons the PM is bringing this so quickly, Jeremy

:51:12.:51:16.

Corbyn has not had an opportunity to prepare a cohesive and coherent

:51:17.:51:19.

platform. We have got to get over this up and Corey eight cohesive

:51:20.:51:24.

Parliamentary Labour Party, it is deeply cohesion for credibility.

:51:25.:51:29.

Able to not vote for divided parties. We are where we are now and

:51:30.:51:34.

because of Jeremy Corbyn's track record as a serial disregard of the

:51:35.:51:40.

whip he is finding it particularly difficult. Get over this. We need to

:51:41.:51:45.

see some coherence coming in in the New Year and what is critical as

:51:46.:51:49.

well are our results, in the elections next year. It amounts to

:51:50.:51:56.

say we would like to be a credible alternative party of government but

:51:57.:52:01.

just not now? I am being realistic about where we are in the

:52:02.:52:05.

Parliamentary Labour Party and the fact of the matter is that the track

:52:06.:52:08.

record of Jeremy Corbyn does make this difficult. We have two bill

:52:09.:52:14.

that coherence. We have got to build it going into the Scottish, Welsh

:52:15.:52:18.

and London elections next year particularly. We are a party of

:52:19.:52:24.

government. The only way we can put our policies and values into

:52:25.:52:29.

practice is by being in government. We are not a protest movement. Let's

:52:30.:52:34.

see how it looks in Scotland, Wales and London and then we can start to

:52:35.:52:40.

look like that party. According to your party you have got to stop

:52:41.:52:44.

looking like a protest movement before the election, you have four

:52:45.:52:47.

or five months at most. Because the prime minister has

:52:48.:52:59.

brought this rapidly, and because of the big issues I have just outlined

:53:00.:53:04.

over Jeremy Corbyn's track record, but also because this is a matter of

:53:05.:53:08.

individual conscience. And look at the Tory party they are divided as

:53:09.:53:12.

well. Less divided on us numerically, but their whips have

:53:13.:53:17.

two get people who are uncomfortable with this boat to have their arms

:53:18.:53:22.

twisted. That is not the case with the Labour Party at the present

:53:23.:53:23.

time. Thank you for joining us. Time now to review the events

:53:24.:53:26.

of the week and look to what's Joining me is political editor

:53:27.:53:29.

of the Scottish Daily Mail, Alan Roden, and the historical

:53:30.:53:37.

novelist Sara Sheridan. On Syria, Alan, what do you make of

:53:38.:53:52.

what Stephen Kenedy has just said -- Stephen Kinnock has just said. And

:53:53.:53:57.

is on the saying, we're not serious as a party but I hope we will get

:53:58.:54:00.

serious soon. Or am I misinterpreting? You are right, they

:54:01.:54:06.

are a protest movement at the moment, and I don't think that is

:54:07.:54:10.

going to happen for a long time to come. Labour have already lost a

:54:11.:54:16.

by-election. I think Scottish Labour now they have already lost that

:54:17.:54:20.

election. Labour is a party which is out of step not only in Westminster

:54:21.:54:27.

but also with its voters. And that is what has really happened. There

:54:28.:54:32.

is a split between left and right, and actually the Parliamentary

:54:33.:54:37.

Labour Party... Which part of the argument be taken out of step with

:54:38.:54:41.

the voters? I think the Parliamentary Labour Party as a

:54:42.:54:44.

whole is far too far to the right. Mostly reporters are further to the

:54:45.:54:47.

left, and that is traditionally where Labour comes from. On military

:54:48.:54:55.

action in Syria? Look at the marchers yesterday stop. The remark

:54:56.:54:58.

is all over the UK. Is that not the point with Jeremy Corbyn

:54:59.:55:03.

supporters? The mistake a few thousand people on a march with the

:55:04.:55:07.

mood of the country. No I don't think so, if you look at what is

:55:08.:55:11.

going on, is a one-upmanship about going to war, let on, that is the

:55:12.:55:16.

easy option, but it does not work in the Middle East for a long time

:55:17.:55:19.

now. America has been bombing for 18 months in Syria and it is not

:55:20.:55:28.

working. We can discuss the merits endlessly, but this issue of which

:55:29.:55:32.

part of the Labour Party that a step with the public, what is your view?

:55:33.:55:38.

The public is divided on the issue, the opinion polls show that. Jeremy

:55:39.:55:42.

Corbyn is in touch with his membership not with the wider

:55:43.:55:45.

public, and that includes Labour voters, people who are maybe not

:55:46.:55:49.

active in the party but have voted for the party and now deserting the

:55:50.:55:53.

party. Lets be devils advocate because you are both criticising the

:55:54.:55:55.

Labour Party. The counterargument would be to say that it is good that

:55:56.:56:00.

the Labour Party and Conservative Party are having opened

:56:01.:56:05.

discussions. Look at the SNP. There has been not one member of

:56:06.:56:09.

opposition from the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon was saying only a few days

:56:10.:56:13.

ago she wanted to hear David Cameron's arguments. Are we supposed

:56:14.:56:17.

to believe that spontaneously all 54 SNP MPs and all their members in the

:56:18.:56:22.

Scottish Parliament just agree completely with the opposition? That

:56:23.:56:27.

would be completely unnatural, wouldn't it? We have not heard a

:56:28.:56:34.

murmur of opposition. Yes, but the Labour story is a much more

:56:35.:56:38.

compelling. I'm playing devils advocate, but Labour would say, we

:56:39.:56:44.

cannot disguise the fact we are divided, at least we're having an

:56:45.:56:46.

open debate. Look at that lot, there is no debate all. Labour tried this

:56:47.:56:52.

with the Trident debate at the conference, they said we have open

:56:53.:56:59.

views. But the public do not want parties that are divided. Look at

:57:00.:57:01.

the SNP, they have rigid discipline. People voted for them in

:57:02.:57:08.

their droves. The SNP will have people who are against bombing but

:57:09.:57:10.

they will not speak out because they are strongly with. Fine changes the

:57:11.:57:14.

other issue we have been discussing today. Sara, do you have any hopes

:57:15.:57:22.

that Paris might be more... Copenhagen just was a disaster. We

:57:23.:57:26.

live in that hope, that it might work. The point about Copenhagen, it

:57:27.:57:32.

did not just not achieve things, it contributed towards taking the issue

:57:33.:57:36.

off the agenda for five years. Bill Gates is heading to Paris this week

:57:37.:57:40.

and he's bringing his pocketbook. What the Conservatives have done in

:57:41.:57:44.

taking this money away from the project that they were going to fun

:57:45.:57:49.

for carbon capture has set a very clear message. I think the

:57:50.:57:52.

Conservatives are lining up for a magical solution very sharply down

:57:53.:57:56.

the line to say," we could do fracking instead!" Which is what

:57:57.:58:01.

they would like. Who would much rather have that. Out of the

:58:02.:58:08.

arrogant -- part of the argued it would have is that you have

:58:09.:58:11.

gas-fired power stations therefore it is less important to have carbon

:58:12.:58:17.

capture and storage. Pulling that money is an idiotic move at the same

:58:18.:58:20.

time as saying, would it not be good if we have private investment? There

:58:21.:58:23.

is Bill Gates with his pocketbook ready and open for business in Paris

:58:24.:58:26.

next week, and they have kind of loan at. Alan, you said the public

:58:27.:58:32.

is divided over military action in Syria. What about climate change? Is

:58:33.:58:37.

there a sense promote people that it has just gone away, disappeared as

:58:38.:58:42.

an issue? I think it is an issue. Not as big an issue as politicians

:58:43.:58:50.

like Patrick RB would say it is. In Paris things will be put forward, it

:58:51.:58:53.

will not be legally binding, you cannot force governments to do

:58:54.:59:02.

things. And hundreds of thousands of tonnes of carbon dioxide will be

:59:03.:59:05.

produced from the conference, which seems ludicrous. But going back to

:59:06.:59:09.

carbon capture, it is an easy political decision for the

:59:10.:59:10.

Chancellor to make to cut that. I'll be back

:59:11.:59:12.

at the same time next week.

:59:13.:59:17.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the disagreement within Labour's shadow cabinet over Syria with Lord Falconer and air strikes with Liam Fox and George Galloway. On the political panel are Janan Ganesh from The Financial Times, Beth Rigby from The Times and Nick Watt from The Guardian.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS