29/11/2015 Sunday Politics Scotland


29/11/2015

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Good morning and welcome. Government issues its plan for air strikes in

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Syria. We will hear from Liam Fox and the Respect party leader George

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Galloway. Jeremy Corbyn is struggling to get his way over Syria

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as he tries to persuade his Shadow Cabinet. We will hear from the

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Shadow Justice Secretary. And the former Conservative Party chairman

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Grant Shapps resigns from the government or allegations he failed

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to act over bullying claims inside the Tory party. Is that the end of

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the story? And coming up on

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Sunday Politics Scotland: As heads of state gather

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for climate change talks in Paris, the UK Government cuts funding

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for new technology which could So, yesterday,

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former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps resigned from

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the Government over allegations he failed to act on claims of bullying

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in the youth wing of the party. It's a complicated story,

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as Giles Dilnot explains. Grant Shapps, former co-chair

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of the Conservative Party and now a former minister, must wish

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as his senior aide Paul Abbot Clarke once tipped for the top

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by Tatler magazine unsuccessfully As a result of his behaviour

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during that campaign, about which complaints were made, he

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was taken off the candidates list. A girlfriend at the time declaring

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he was "unfit to be an MP". In early 2014,

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Mr Clarke approached the Conservatives and Grant Shapps

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in particular with an idea. It was simple, bus loads of young

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Tory activists to marginal seats during the 2015 general election

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campaign to doorstep constituents. In the face of of unshifting polls,

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the idea appealed to Conservative Central Headquarters but they

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wanted to have some control over it. Grant Shapps decided not only to

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back the idea, but help pay for it, and put Clarke in charge

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of the operation. never met are you going to be a part

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of this? -- are you going to be? Roadtrip 2015,

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as the plan was called, had another motive for Clarke, to see him back

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on the Conservative candidate list and perhaps he would have and this

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story ended if not for the apparent suicide in mid-September

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of a young activist called Elliot Johnson, who left a note, naming

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Mark Clarke as someone who'd been bullying him and a secret recording

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of Clarke challenging him in a pub. In the wake of Elliot Johnson's

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death, lurid allegations emerged about Clarke, alleging sexual

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misconduct, drugs, intimidation, blackmail and bullying connected to

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Roadtrip, all denied by Mark Clarke. But August e-mail exchanges

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between Mr Clarke and Mr Shapps' aide Paul Abbot show Mr Abbott was

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aware of complaints Nothing was done and since Mr Shapps

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gave Clarke an official Party role he has now resigned saying

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"the buck stops with me". The Prime Minister says a full

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internal investigation is under way. Elliot Johnson's father wants an

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independent external investigation. The most serious allegations

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about Clarke were made after Grant Shapps had been moved to

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a junior ministerial position and Lord Feldman, David Cameron's

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chief fundraiser and close friend, He says the party cannot find

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nor was aware of any written If, by falling on his sword,

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Mr Shapps hoped to stop the scandal spreading,

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he may actually only have become The Sunday Politics panel is here.

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Nick, here is the case for Shapps. He has been made a scapegoat. This

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is not the end of the story. I think it is not the end of the story.

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Grant Shapps did sign up Mark Clark to do this. I think it is getting

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awfully close to the door of Andrew Feldman. They went -- he went to

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college with the Prime Minister and organised some balls. They go back a

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long way. The road trip was run out of Conservative campaign

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headquarters in the run-up to the general election. Most significantly

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for Andrew Feldman, he signed the for Andrew Feldman, he signed the

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checks to allow the road trip to take place. We're not talking small

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cheques, we are talking many hundreds of thousands of pounds.

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Grant Shapps was in charge of it on a day-to-day basis but Andrew

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Feldman and his sister helped the running of the road trip. What it

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does is put the attention onto some of the attention onto summary the

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attention would be, what did Andrew Feldman do? What did he know and

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when and what did he do? What we have to remember is Baroness Warsi,

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who was co-chairman, kicked this guy out of the party. Feldman was

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Chairman Ben and Shapps brought him out of the party. Feldman was

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back. Feldman was co-chairman and Feldman is still the chairman now.

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In terms of the party, what some people were saying to me yesterday,

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actually, it cannot be seen that Cameron is protecting Lord Fellman

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-- Feldman because he is his friend. He has got questions to answer. I

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also think that if people who are in the party feel these questions are

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not being answered, and it is not an open process, loads more leaks will

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come out and it will get messier and messier and messier. It is a rum do,

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what was going on inside the Tory Party in its youth wing. Multiple

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allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. Culminating in this

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young man taking his life on a railway line. It is an appalling

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thing. There is a history of unusual behaviour amongst Conservative

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students going back to the 1980s when Norman Tebbit closed down the

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Confederation of Conservative students. It is the most extreme

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incident I have ever encountered. This is about personal behaviour.

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The parents of Elliott Johnson raised an important question of

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chronology. Grant Shapps stop being co-chairman in May. Some of the

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allegations against Mark Clark, some of the complaints surfaced as

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recently as August. There is a deeper structural problem, which is

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the Conservative Party does not have activists. They have to find them

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where they can get them. Or, when summary has a reputation as bad as

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Mark Clark, they end up going along with them because options are so

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limited. It will not be the end of the story.

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David Cameron is expected to ask MPs to approve UK air strikes

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The Government thinks it now has enough support to risk a vote

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in the Commons, even though the Labour Party is still unclear.

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And the PM will almost certainly need Labour votes to get his way.

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Mr Corbyn is still trying to rally his Shadow Cabinet and Labour MPs

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He told Andrew Marr they should recognise his direct mandate

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And so what I've done is what I said I would always do,

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I would try to democratise the way the party does things.

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Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party members, and actually,

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70,000 have already replied with their views.

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I don't know what all the views are, obviously, I haven't read them all,

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Surely we must recognise that in a democracy, the Labour Party has

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a very large membership, nearly 400,000 members, they have a right

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to express their point of view and MPs have to listen to it and have to

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try and understand what's going on in the minds

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I've been joined by Charlie Falconer, Jeremy Corbyn's

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Are you minded to support government on the subject of Syrian air

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strikes? I am. Then need to be assurances, given to the House of

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Commons but I am minded to support assurances, given to the House of

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air strikes. The reason I am, I think Isil poses a threat to the

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region and also Europe, including the United Kingdom. I believe air

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strikes over Iraq and Syria are having an effect on reducing that

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risk. I think it is wrong that we are participating in Syria when what

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is going on is we are trying to defend the United Kingdom. I believe

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the only long-term solution is there needs to be a solution to the Syrian

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civil war and the bombing of cracker will not significantly contribute to

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that. -- Raqqa. I believe we do not have a choice. The likelihood is

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that the Shadow Cabinet will agree a collective position in this matter.

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There are honourably held collective views. The Shadow Cabinet on

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Thursday, they were appropriately discussing. Everybody was conscious

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of the fact we have to reach a conclusion in national interests.

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With an issue like this where there is agreement on the factual

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material, international law, the final judgment, there is such a

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difficult decision to be made, it is not surprising that our

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disagreements in the Shadow Cabinet. It is unlikely that tomorrow you

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will be able to agree a collective line. I think that is right. It is

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unlikely we'll be able to agree a yes or no answer to the question the

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Government is about to post. If it does not and there is a free vote

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for this among Labour MPs, it does make it certain that Mr Cameron will

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win by a convincing majority. I do not know the position. I think

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everyone is weighing up the merits of the argument. The right thing to

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do is for mothers of the Parliamentary Labour Party members

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of the Shadow Cabinet to consider all the arguments and reach a

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conclusion as to what they think is in the national interest. It is

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clear that enough Labour MPs will abstain or side with the Government

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to give Mr Cameron a majority, even if that are some Tory defectors. If

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the position where it was whipped against by the Labour Party, that

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with very significantly reduce the chances if it were a free vote. I do

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with very significantly reduce the not know what the final figures

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would be. Your figures sound right. Should there be a free vote? What is

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the alternative given the position you are into a free vote? My own

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view is I do not think this very important issue should be allowed to

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be a situation that forces resignations on people. I think the

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right course is, if the Shadow Cabinet cannot come to a collective

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view, and I accept that maybe unlikely, probably the best course

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is a free vote. That is ultimately for the leadership to decide. For an

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opposition which aspires to government when you're not a

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debating society. You are the opposition, the alternative

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government. What would voters think if you cannot agree a collective

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position on something as important as war? What the Government be

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seeing is a legitimate debate. The public is like the Parliamentary

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Labour Party and like the saddo Cabinet, of different views. You

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need to come to a collective view. We need to know your view on this.

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The differences with this is I do not think it will be possible. I do

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not think that is surprising. That reflects the debate that is going on

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in the country. The debate going on in the country is going on within

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the Labour Party. If Mr Corbyn was to attempt, and he said this morning

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it is his decision to whip or not. If there were a decision to whip

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Labour members to vote against bombing, would that be a resignation

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matter for you? I do not want to comment on that. I very much hope

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any sort of resignations will be avoided. I think the position will

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be we will have a further discussion on Monday and a collective you will

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be we will have a further discussion be reached as to how we go forward

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in relation to the progress. One Labour MP told us that Mr Corbyn's

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and of this vote seems to him like a deliberate search for a fight and he

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is very disappointed. I do not agree. The key thing about what is

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happening now is not who sent a letter when. The key thing which the

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public want us to debate is the question itself. Should we support

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air strikes or not? I think the important thing about this week will

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not be who said what to whom but will be where you stood on the

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issue. It is one of those issues where the judgment about what was

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right and what was wrong will not come on the basis of the politics of

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these few days. It will come on what happens going forward. What was the

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right decision? Let me ask you this. We do not have much time. Because

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you are a lawyer and an expert on the Labour Party, if Labour MPs

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sought to unseat Mr Corbyn, and there is some wild talk around on

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that, witty automatically be on the ballot paper of a new leadership

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election? I have not addressed that. It is not a moment to talk about any

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sort of leadership challenge. Jeremy Corbyn is leader. He was elected two

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months ago with a huge mandate. That is the position within the Labour

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Party and that is where we have to address it. It can hardly be a

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stable position to have a Labour leader, in such a key issue has

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bombing in Syria, at odds with a huge chunk of his Shadow Cabinet

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rest room at that position is unsustainable over the period. It

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was absolutely clear when Jeremy was elected, there were significant

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disagreements between Jeremy and others on policy. What is happening

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is the Labour Party is holding together. So far.

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So, once again a British government is gearing up extend military action

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It's a well-trod road and the outcome has not always been

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predictable, or pleasant, which is why so many are hesitant.

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Ellie Price has been looking at the Prime Minister's case

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for action, and what role the UK military might play.

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That bomb in Paris, that could have been London.

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If they had their way, it would be London.

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I can't stand here and say we're safe

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I can't stand here either and say we will remove the threat

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that taking action will degrade and reduce that threat over time?

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Absolutely, and I've examined my conscience

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David Cameron says he no longer wants to outsource this sort

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Britain is currently involved in air strikes against so-called Islamic

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State, but only in Iraq, shown here in the bottom half of this shot.

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The border, for British forces at least, is crucial.

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IS, Isis, Daesh - whatever you want to call it - control or is free to

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operate in swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria.

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Its so-called caliphate stretches from Aleppo in Syria to

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The lines on the map are relatively fluid, it recently lost control

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That was down to Kurdish forces with the help of US-led air strikes.

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Currently Australia, Canada and France are also flying

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bombing missions over both countries, targeting IS.

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According to the latest figures released on Friday,

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the US and its allies operating under the banner of Operation

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Inherent Resolve have conducted more than 8,500 air strikes against

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Islamic State targets since the start of the campaign last year.

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That's 5,580 air strikes in Iraq and 2,925 in Syria.

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More than 16,000 targets have been damaged or destroyed,

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including more than 4,500 buildings, nearly 5,000 fighting positions, and

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The vast majority have come from US aircraft, but the RAF has run 376

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They've been launched from this base in Cyprus, where

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The base has also been used to carry out refuelling and

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The perception out there is the question as to whether or not

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the UK should be involved in the campaign in Syria or not.

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The reality is we are involved in that campaign but in an inconsistent

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Other countries, our allies, the Americans and French

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in particular, just don't quite understand where we are up to.

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The PM insists the RAF can provide specific skills

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that coalition partners are keen to make the most of.

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The ability to launch highly accurate Brimstone missiles.

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We are very good at not killing people collaterally,

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the UK, so in that sense I think us moving into Syria is good.

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The sad thing is that no matter how good you are, there will be innocent

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people killed but they are dying anyway because of Isil, and it's

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coming to the stage where you have to move forward and do things, even

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though that sort of thing happens, that cannot be

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Of course Russia is also involved in air strikes in Syria,

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but its support of President Assad's regime puts it at odds with

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The scale of these tensions demonstrated when Turkey,

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which vehemently opposes Assad, shot down a Russian plane last week.

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Most experts agree that air strikes alone will not destroy the common

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enemy of IS, that ground forces will be needed, but agreeing on exactly

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who those forces would be, could prove the biggest obstacle to peace.

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We are joined now by George Galloway. What should be done to

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thwart Islamic State, if not British bombing, what should be done to hit

:20:31.:20:35.

it in its heartland? Most of these terrorist attacks were carried out

:20:36.:20:38.

by people living in the countries in which they operated, Tunisia,

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France, Belgium and so on so you will not physically stop people

:20:47.:20:50.

bombing Raqqa turning up on the streets of Paris. But the planning

:20:51.:20:58.

involved Islamic State. There's not much logistics involved in taking

:20:59.:21:05.

arms into a nightclub and killing innocent people. There are many

:21:06.:21:09.

weapons in Europe, nobody is suggesting these weapons came from

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Syria. I don't want to dodge your question, I must strongly in favour

:21:15.:21:18.

of destroying Isis and Al-Qaeda as anybody else, more than the David

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Cameron government or they wouldn't be tolerating a situation where

:21:24.:21:27.

Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been supporting these people for years

:21:28.:21:34.

and until now are supporting them. We are steeped in blog so far but it

:21:35.:21:40.

is bloodier to go on, I promise you. What would you do? I would support

:21:41.:21:46.

the people fighting Isis and Al-Qaeda on the ground. The wide PG

:21:47.:22:01.

militia -- YPG militia. Give them weapons, every kind of support we

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can. It is a far better way than us joining in. Do you support Russian

:22:10.:22:17.

attacks on the anti-Assad forces in Syria? Yes, if they are coordinated

:22:18.:22:25.

with the Syrian government's army. So do you support British attacks on

:22:26.:22:32.

Islamic State forces in Iraq at their request of the Iraq

:22:33.:22:37.

government? I do, and if they were coordinated with the Government that

:22:38.:22:41.

make sense militarily, and if we coordinated our involvement with

:22:42.:22:45.

Russia and the Is this the camera not realise that

:22:46.:23:22.

if eating Islamic State is more important than getting rid of Mr

:23:23.:23:29.

Assad. I do not believe that. Is utterly farcical claim in the House

:23:30.:23:34.

this week that there were 70,000 moderate rebels armed and rebel to

:23:35.:23:43.

take over the land. There is not 7000. If there are 700 I would be

:23:44.:23:50.

surprised. What will happen, we will bomb territory that will then be

:23:51.:23:53.

taken by other so-called moderate fanatic 's. The ones that as I said

:23:54.:23:59.

to you before, only caught off half your head. Should we regard the

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Russians and Assad regime as our allies in the fight against Islamic

:24:07.:24:10.

State? Definitely. And we had the chance after the Security Council

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decided, we had that chance. But that was incinerated by Allied Mr

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Erdogan and the Russian air force -- Turkish air force bombing these

:24:26.:24:27.

people out of the sky and provoking a crisis between East and West,

:24:28.:24:30.

between Nato and Russia which was completely unnecessary and

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completely contrary to any legitimate war aims. Did not still

:24:35.:24:41.

be put together despite that? I wish that it would, I suspect it will

:24:42.:24:44.

not. Russia is taking measures against Turkey. If we had time to

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discuss that I would elaborate this point. Turkey is the source of this

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problem. The Turkish border has been open to these people, they are

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selling their stolen oil, billions of dollars worth. Islamic State

:24:56.:25:02.

selling its oil to Turkey? Yes, it is being sold in Turkey, I believe

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relatives of Mr Erdogan, it is then sold on to neighbouring countries.

:25:12.:25:15.

You cannot be serious about fighting Isil while you're Nato ally is

:25:16.:25:20.

openly collaborating with them. That is why I suspect Cameron. You

:25:21.:25:23.

followed very closely what is going on in the Labour Party at the

:25:24.:25:28.

moment. Does Jeremy Corbyn have an alternative to a free vote when this

:25:29.:25:33.

comes up to a vote in the Commons? Yellow magnifier were him I would

:25:34.:25:36.

hope the vote, because his enemies, and they are in perpetual rebellion

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to overthrow Jeremy Corbyn. Five Jeremy Corbyn this is the Touraine

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on which I would fight because our record on intervention in the Middle

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East is so bad, the likelihood of it not going well is so high. I would

:25:53.:25:59.

dearly is rebels to facilitate David Cameron's war. Without not rip apart

:26:00.:26:05.

the Labour Party? Or would that be the intention? It kind of looks to

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me like it is ripping itself apart. This is 1931 revisited, Mrs Ramsay

:26:11.:26:15.

MacDonald in reverse, the leader remaining loyal to the party and the

:26:16.:26:20.

MPs effectively joining in national government in times of War and peace

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at least. If I were Jeremy Corbyn I would hope this boat and let the

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Labour members pass verdict on those that trip into the lobby with Liam

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Fox and David Cameron because I'm pretty sure this will not end well.

:26:36.:26:40.

Even at the expense of ripping apart your Shadow Cabinet? You would be

:26:41.:26:45.

ripping a Shadow Cabinet weather seems to be a majority against the

:26:46.:26:50.

position of Jeremy Corbyn. Some of them might surprise you with their

:26:51.:26:57.

Fidelity, but they are supporting the elected leader as the rope

:26:58.:27:01.

supporting hanging man. The hanging man is asphyxiated in the end. What

:27:02.:27:06.

are the chances of Jeremy Corbyn following your advice? Probably not,

:27:07.:27:12.

listening to John Dunlop and Ken Livingstone, they are going to go

:27:13.:27:16.

for a free vote. That will merely postpone the push. It will give Mr

:27:17.:27:23.

Cameron in the majority and will only postpone the push against

:27:24.:27:27.

Jeremy Corbyn. George Galloway, thank you for being with us. At this

:27:28.:27:31.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:27:32.:27:36.

As heads of state gather for climate change talks in Paris,

:27:37.:27:41.

the UK Government cuts funding for new technology which could

:27:42.:27:44.

And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military

:27:45.:27:52.

You cannot develop the first project easily without government backing.

:27:53.:27:55.

And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military

:27:56.:27:59.

action in Syria this week - will he get support from Labour MPs?

:28:00.:28:02.

As global CO2 emissions continue to rise, heads of state from around

:28:03.:28:07.

the world are arriving in Paris for UN climate change talks, where

:28:08.:28:12.

That comes at the end of a week in which the UK Government scrapped

:28:13.:28:17.

a ?1 billion competition to develop the country's first plant to store

:28:18.:28:20.

emissions instead of releasing them into the air,

:28:21.:28:22.

UK ministers said the programme was a victim of ongoing spending cuts

:28:23.:28:29.

needed to balance the books, but supporters of the technology say

:28:30.:28:34.

For generations, power stations are provided it reliable and relatively

:28:35.:28:49.

cheap way to keep the lights on. But now it seems that they are becoming

:28:50.:28:53.

a term as dirty as the pollution they released into the atmosphere.

:28:54.:28:58.

Storing that pollution, known as carbon capture, has been hailed as a

:28:59.:29:05.

solution to the problem. The process involves piping the carbon dioxide

:29:06.:29:08.

produced by places like coal power stations offshore where it can be

:29:09.:29:13.

stored in the space left by a former oil or gas field. The North Sea's

:29:14.:29:21.

massive CO2 storage potential means Scotland could be at the forefront

:29:22.:29:27.

of this technology. In 2013 project at Peterhead power station by Shell

:29:28.:29:33.

and SSE was named as one of two preferred bidder is anyone billion

:29:34.:29:36.

pound UK Government contest to develop carbon capture. It shows

:29:37.:29:42.

that the UK's leading in the low Carbon challenge to tackle climate

:29:43.:29:46.

change and get clean energy. But this week the UK Government

:29:47.:29:48.

announced it was scrapping that support as part of its spending

:29:49.:29:52.

review, and some argue that is bad news for the chances of getting

:29:53.:29:57.

carbon capture up and running. You cannot develop the first project

:29:58.:30:01.

easily without government backing because any first project is usually

:30:02.:30:05.

much more expensive than follow-on project because you are over

:30:06.:30:07.

designing and overengineering, and that is why that government help of

:30:08.:30:14.

the billion pounds is needed. To not venture down this path when it is

:30:15.:30:17.

clearly shown that carbon capture and storage is by far the best

:30:18.:30:20.

financial benefit to the whole economy, to not venture down that

:30:21.:30:25.

path is negligent, naive and also deceitful in the way it has been

:30:26.:30:32.

done. We have been here before. Ministers delayed stand accused of

:30:33.:30:35.

bungling and incompetence over the cancellation of a project to fight

:30:36.:30:42.

global warming. In 2007 BP abandon plans for a carbon capture plan at

:30:43.:30:46.

Peterhead, blaming Westminster delays. A similar plan for Longannet

:30:47.:30:50.

in Fife went the same way four years later when ministers failed to reach

:30:51.:30:56.

a deal with power companies. And in September, an energy firm abandoned

:30:57.:31:00.

its stake in a project to store carbon dioxide mixed its plant in

:31:01.:31:04.

North Yorkshire. That came after a government decision to cut renewable

:31:05.:31:09.

energy subsidies. And while carbon capture has the ability to

:31:10.:31:12.

dramatically reduce emissions, environmental campaigners are

:31:13.:31:16.

cautious about something which continues the burning of fossil

:31:17.:31:21.

fuels. Carbon capture and storage may have a role to play, but we do

:31:22.:31:26.

not know. We do not know how commercially or technically

:31:27.:31:29.

efficient it will be. Do not know how long-term trust can be developed

:31:30.:31:35.

in the reservoirs into which CO2 would be injected, how long it would

:31:36.:31:38.

stay there. That we are happy to see the research happen. Now that the UK

:31:39.:31:43.

has pulled the plug on that, we need to be very clear that Scotland's

:31:44.:31:47.

future potential, our ability to get back on track and start meeting

:31:48.:31:50.

those climate change targets is based on building a low carbon

:31:51.:31:56.

infrastructure and rolling out -- ruling out the burning of fossil

:31:57.:32:01.

fuels. What chance is there of carbon capture coming to this

:32:02.:32:04.

country? Following the announcement this week, one of the partners in

:32:05.:32:08.

the Peterhead Project, Shell, said that without its funding its

:32:09.:32:11.

proposals were not viable for no. And that presents another project,

:32:12.:32:16.

because if coal power stations begin closing because they cannot cut CO2

:32:17.:32:21.

emissions, we need to find another way to keep the lights on. UK

:32:22.:32:29.

ministers want to see a move away from coal towards gas-fired power

:32:30.:32:33.

stations, although they still see a potential role for carbon capture.

:32:34.:32:38.

As for the now-defunct Willian Penn support fund, that has been put down

:32:39.:32:41.

to a need to balance the government's looks. -- the ?1

:32:42.:32:47.

billion aboard fund. Ministers will attend climate talks in Paris next

:32:48.:32:52.

week. As they discuss how to tackle the problem, the world's CO2

:32:53.:32:54.

emissions continue to rise. We asked the Secretary of State for

:32:55.:32:56.

Energy and Climate change, Amber Rudd, and the Minister of State,

:32:57.:33:01.

Andrea Leadsom, for an interview, The Department of Energy and

:33:02.:33:03.

Climate Change told us the decision to cut funding for CCS was a fiscal

:33:04.:33:09.

one, announced by the Chancellor. We also asked the Conservative Party

:33:10.:33:16.

for an interview on this issue But I'm pleased to say we are joined

:33:17.:33:32.

from Stornoway by the SNP MP Angus MacNeil, who's Chair

:33:33.:33:38.

of Westminster's Energy and And in the studio, the Scottish

:33:39.:33:40.

Greens' Patrick Harvie and the former Labour MP and Shadow Energy

:33:41.:33:45.

Minister Tom Greatrex, who's now Angus, can I start with some factual

:33:46.:34:00.

questions to you. It is unfortunate but do not have anyone from the

:34:01.:34:05.

Government here, but this was not announced by George Osborne, it was

:34:06.:34:08.

not even in the Redbook documents, it was in an announcement to the

:34:09.:34:14.

stock exchange which came after the Chancellor sat down after his Autumn

:34:15.:34:18.

Statement. Have you received the new committee any explanation as to why

:34:19.:34:21.

this decision has been made? None whatsoever. It looks again like the

:34:22.:34:28.

government is fairly chaotic, one hand does not know what the other is

:34:29.:34:33.

up to. Only a few days before Amber Rudd had a speech there was no

:34:34.:34:37.

mention of this. It was not in the Autumn Statement, I went to the

:34:38.:34:39.

House of Commons library that evening with one of the researchers

:34:40.:34:42.

trawled through the documents and could not find anything. I should

:34:43.:34:48.

point out for viewers who are perhaps not familiar with the

:34:49.:34:50.

language of government documents, for the Department of energy to tell

:34:51.:34:55.

us in an e-mail that this was a fiscal decision made by the

:34:56.:34:59.

Chancellor, I don't know if you agree, but it seems to me that is as

:35:00.:35:04.

close as you will ever get to a government department saying, we did

:35:05.:35:07.

not necessarily agree with it and it had nothing to do with us! Correct,

:35:08.:35:13.

and would not be the first time, I do not think the new much in the

:35:14.:35:17.

Department, the story was first leaked to the Daily Telegraph of the

:35:18.:35:20.

intention is to cut support for onshore wind. If Scotland was

:35:21.:35:25.

independent it would never vote to be governed by this lot. What next?

:35:26.:35:32.

Who can have any trust in them? They are as slippery as seaweed. Before

:35:33.:35:38.

we get on to the substance of the issue, arguably this is a very

:35:39.:35:43.

unconservative thing to do. One of the things you want to do surely is

:35:44.:35:50.

respect contracts. I am not here on behalf of the Conservative Party.

:35:51.:35:55.

But is that an aspect of this? People will not necessarily have

:35:56.:35:58.

much sympathy with big oil companies, but the fact is they have

:35:59.:36:01.

sunk money into this and at the last moment have been told, that does not

:36:02.:36:05.

matter, this will not happen. Firstly, this is not new, the

:36:06.:36:10.

Treasury antipathy towards carbon capture and storage goes back, when

:36:11.:36:16.

the company pulled out of Longannet, and again that ?1 billion was moved

:36:17.:36:21.

away from the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Technically it

:36:22.:36:28.

has not sat there. One of the things they have said this week is that

:36:29.:36:31.

they want to start a competition for these new generation modular new

:36:32.:36:36.

clear power stations. Irrespective of whether you think that is a good

:36:37.:36:40.

idea, if you are energy company, you might be thinking, I will not invest

:36:41.:36:43.

money in this because they could do what they have just done with carbon

:36:44.:36:49.

capture. Absolutely. Just a few weeks short of the announcement of

:36:50.:36:52.

which of the two final project would win the competition, to then cut it

:36:53.:36:57.

away like that, quite apart from the merits of carbon capture technology,

:36:58.:37:01.

it sends a very bad signal to potential investors and is on top of

:37:02.:37:05.

a range of similar moves in other areas, and you can have debates

:37:06.:37:08.

about the merits of individual technologies, but the overall

:37:09.:37:12.

message it sends an terms of energy investment is very poor, and for the

:37:13.:37:18.

UK, our position which was very good in terms of energy investment, is

:37:19.:37:21.

deteriorating over time because the risk factor of sudden political

:37:22.:37:24.

change is so high, and in the Conservative Party manifesto they

:37:25.:37:28.

referred to ?1 billion for carbon capture and storage, and less than

:37:29.:37:34.

six months later it has gone. Patrick Harvie, are you not very

:37:35.:37:40.

keen on this? On carbon capture in principle? We are very keen, we are

:37:41.:37:45.

happy to see the research happen. Have never been convinced anybody,

:37:46.:37:48.

including government, should take that as it promised that the

:37:49.:37:51.

technology will be deployable on any set timescale. And both governments,

:37:52.:37:56.

Scottish and UK, have made the assumption they can design energy

:37:57.:37:59.

policy with that expectation that CCF will be available. You will have

:38:00.:38:04.

been in favour of the condition going ahead, of companies trying to

:38:05.:38:10.

develop this, but you do not want governments of any description to be

:38:11.:38:13.

forecasting by me change emission cuts on the basis of technology

:38:14.:38:19.

which has not been proven? To be building in plans of new fossil fuel

:38:20.:38:22.

power generation on the assumption they can then bolt on CCS at some

:38:23.:38:27.

future point. We have never known that would be a guaranteed

:38:28.:38:30.

possibility, it is certainly something we should be researching,

:38:31.:38:32.

something we should like to develop and find out what potential it has.

:38:33.:38:38.

But now that the Government has pulled the plug, it may happen in

:38:39.:38:42.

the long-term, it will not be short-term availability, so we need

:38:43.:38:46.

to rule out fossil fuel generation capacity. The other thing is that

:38:47.:38:54.

George Osborne wants to close coal-fired power station but once

:38:55.:38:58.

another generation of quick to build these power gas generating power

:38:59.:39:03.

stations. And in the short term that can reduce emissions. Over a

:39:04.:39:11.

long-term trajectory... You might disagree with that decision to go

:39:12.:39:14.

ahead, but given that that decision has been made, would it not make

:39:15.:39:18.

more sense, would it not be even more important to try to get CCS to

:39:19.:39:23.

mitigate the emissions from this new generation of power stations?

:39:24.:39:35.

The build new capacity you would need CCS. I would challenge the

:39:36.:39:44.

Scottish Government to rule out any additional fossil fuel power

:39:45.:39:48.

generating capacity and I would welcome it if they would give that

:39:49.:39:53.

clarity. And yes, I know the SMP would like to try to convince the

:39:54.:39:56.

government to change its mind on this. If you are going to have a new

:39:57.:40:01.

generation of gas-fired power stations you might as well try to

:40:02.:40:04.

mitigate the emissions but do you think you can win over the committee

:40:05.:40:09.

to Europe edition? I have a feeling that yes, the committee will be open

:40:10.:40:15.

to move towards that position. It is hard to speak for the committee

:40:16.:40:19.

itself. The chairman of the committee on climate change has said

:40:20.:40:24.

at the fifth cabinet budget launch on Thursday morning that to achieve

:40:25.:40:29.

the 2030 targets will be difficult and it is an issue with this ending

:40:30.:40:34.

of this project so abruptly. Tom's point was very good, the government

:40:35.:40:39.

are leaving huge uncertainty on onshore wind, the left uncertainty

:40:40.:40:43.

on solar, now there is uncertainty on carbon capture and storage. The

:40:44.:40:48.

problem is for investors. Some are calling to the Republic of Ireland

:40:49.:40:53.

to invest because of the feel of what is happening in the UK. This is

:40:54.:40:59.

the second time Peterhead has lost carbon capture and storage. Alistair

:41:00.:41:03.

Darling pulled the plug on an earlier project one decade ago. You

:41:04.:41:09.

are no longer an MP just getting at an opinion, you are cheered of this

:41:10.:41:13.

committee. What will you ask your committee to do about this if

:41:14.:41:17.

anything? At the moment the committee is having an investigation

:41:18.:41:23.

into investor confidence. We did not think it would be involved with the

:41:24.:41:26.

investigation at the outset, carbon capture, but we think it will be. We

:41:27.:41:31.

will be hearing from Shell during this and will have them what this

:41:32.:41:35.

means for their confidence and investing in energy issues and

:41:36.:41:38.

energy projects on the word of the UK Government. It is not for me to

:41:39.:41:43.

guess what they are going to say but I think it is obvious they will not

:41:44.:41:50.

be happy. Tom, is Patrick Hardy's point well made that what

:41:51.:41:55.

governments tend to do is assume these technologies will work then

:41:56.:42:00.

build that into their emission forecast? Carbon capture has not got

:42:01.:42:06.

any rear so far. It has in other places. In Canada and shortly in the

:42:07.:42:17.

US. The lazy operating dash there is operating a carbon capture plant in

:42:18.:42:22.

Saskatchewan. And it is another one similar to the project outside the

:42:23.:42:28.

competition in Grangemouth. Even our clients for carbon capture in China

:42:29.:42:32.

so the technology does exist. If it is the and being utilised why do we

:42:33.:42:37.

need a competition to see if the competition is feasible? The

:42:38.:42:43.

complexity comes with, you can capture the carbon, stored the

:42:44.:42:46.

carbon, we are in a strong position in terms of depleted offshore being

:42:47.:42:54.

able to store it. The transport can be complex depending on where you

:42:55.:42:57.

are in different sites. What is it that has too been open? Let's

:42:58.:43:04.

imagine Peterhead got this. It is a gas-fired power station taking gas

:43:05.:43:07.

from the North Sea and presumably can pump CO2 into empty wells. What

:43:08.:43:15.

is it that is not proven in the technology that is up and running

:43:16.:43:19.

that would have to be proven now? The one in Canada, it has been less

:43:20.:43:23.

than one year that it has been in operation and the one in the S -- US

:43:24.:43:30.

has been less than a year. They are parallel to the UK competition but

:43:31.:43:33.

there are different requirements that have to be satisfied. There

:43:34.:43:38.

will be value coming out of the competition as it is running in

:43:39.:43:42.

terms of the detailed feed studies that are running and there are

:43:43.:43:45.

potential projects in the UK outside of the UK competition. We would all

:43:46.:43:51.

agree the technology is not developed to the point with it as

:43:52.:43:56.

commercially available. What I find but, I would like to see the public

:43:57.:44:01.

sector and community sector take more ownership of this energy

:44:02.:44:06.

system. There needs to be consistency and clarity. We are

:44:07.:44:11.

running out of time. The panellists talks starting this week, Copenhagen

:44:12.:44:16.

was pretty much a wash-out in the middle of the financial crisis. It

:44:17.:44:24.

was overhyped. Do you have any greater hopes for Paris? I know we

:44:25.:44:28.

still have time to make a radical deal which leaves the bulk of our

:44:29.:44:32.

fossil fuels in the ground where they have two stay. Whether I am

:44:33.:44:37.

hopeful on not, I struggle. You struggle with hope? Angus, the same

:44:38.:44:43.

question to you? I think we're Paris is going at the moment, their

:44:44.:44:50.

intended contributions, it is not far enough but we get it hopeful is

:44:51.:44:55.

that the Americans and Chinese are together. My only problem is the

:44:56.:45:00.

American Senate and the Republicans. Again, very briefly, Tom? Since 2000

:45:01.:45:06.

and 966 countries at the climate change act or equivalent and I think

:45:07.:45:11.

it also aligns with people's domestic issues in China and Africa

:45:12.:45:14.

and places like think there is more scope for an agreement than the was

:45:15.:45:21.

in Copenhagen. It is a problem. To be discussed further. Thank you very

:45:22.:45:22.

much indeed. Now, the Defence Secretary Michael

:45:23.:45:26.

Fallon confirmed this morning that he's briefed some Labour MPs in

:45:27.:45:28.

an attempt to win their support for Mr Fallon told the Andrew Marr

:45:29.:45:31.

programme that the government would like to hold a vote on

:45:32.:45:37.

the issue this week but that it did Meanwhile the Labour leader Jeremy

:45:38.:45:40.

Corbyn has defended his decision to publically declare his opposition to

:45:41.:45:44.

action before the Shadow Cabinet He has not yet decided whether

:45:45.:45:49.

to allow his MPs a free vote. I'm joined from London by the

:45:50.:45:53.

Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, who's also Parliamentary Private

:45:54.:45:58.

Secretary to the Shadow Business Stephen as was discussed this

:45:59.:46:19.

morning, he has gone to see individual MPs, has he come to you?

:46:20.:46:24.

He has not come knocking on my door, I have been an Studios, maybe

:46:25.:46:28.

Michael has been trying to get through to me. Which way would you

:46:29.:46:34.

be inclined to vote? I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I

:46:35.:46:39.

agree we need to eradicate the modernist death cult that is Isis

:46:40.:46:45.

but we have to do that with a ground offensive. We will not be able to do

:46:46.:46:50.

that if we are discarded -- distracted by a real bombardments. I

:46:51.:46:54.

viewed the PM has put the cart before the horse. Let's get the

:46:55.:46:59.

politics right. We must get a regional force in place, taking Isis

:47:00.:47:03.

out, then I will be more than happy to support that initiative but as

:47:04.:47:09.

things stand I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I am planning to

:47:10.:47:15.

vote against unless the PM comes forward in the next hours with some

:47:16.:47:20.

much cleaner proposal in terms of getting a ground force together

:47:21.:47:28.

which will be taking Isis out. -- much clearer. You have been making

:47:29.:47:33.

out the problems with the strategy of the PM but we do not consider an

:47:34.:47:37.

argument that the damage to the international coalition emerging

:47:38.:47:42.

against Isis, it should they be a vote in the House of Commons against

:47:43.:47:47.

action, should trump some of the reservations you have. They are not

:47:48.:47:51.

necessarily incompatible with what David Cameron is planning to do, he

:47:52.:47:55.

would say he probably agrees with you in all this? I think we have a

:47:56.:48:01.

once in a generation opportunity now to bring the Russians and Iranians

:48:02.:48:05.

to the table. We are making real progress on Vienna full op adding

:48:06.:48:09.

more on this from the Earth to that distracts from the most promising

:48:10.:48:16.

pieces of this jigsaw puzzle which is that we could start to build a

:48:17.:48:22.

corporate coalition which takes the platform to take Isis out. I

:48:23.:48:28.

understand absolutely we need to make a gesture towards our brothers

:48:29.:48:32.

and sisters in France and to show solidarity, I do not actually think

:48:33.:48:36.

putting the cart before the horse is the best way to do that. This is not

:48:37.:48:42.

just an issue about Syria but it has become an issue about the Labour

:48:43.:48:48.

Party. What would you like to see Jeremy Corbyn do? Should he have a

:48:49.:48:53.

wet vote for your possession or should she allowed a free vote? --

:48:54.:49:02.

whipped. He should have come out within 24 hours of the PM statement

:49:03.:49:08.

to say he was not persuaded and to ask for a free vote. It is a matter

:49:09.:49:15.

of individual conscience, and extremely complex issue. A lot of my

:49:16.:49:19.

colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party are examining their

:49:20.:49:23.

consciences. It is not party political in the nature of Trident.

:49:24.:49:29.

I think we absolutely have to be whipped on Trident and I am in

:49:30.:49:32.

favour of maintaining a nuclear deterrent but on this issue which is

:49:33.:49:36.

on the immediate and complex decision on what to do in Syria, I

:49:37.:49:43.

think it is right it is an individual vote. I know we were

:49:44.:49:48.

whipped on Iraq and Libya but we have two say we have learned from

:49:49.:49:52.

Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan and therefore there is a case for an

:49:53.:50:05.

non-whipped vote on this occasion. This is not just about what Labour

:50:06.:50:09.

MPs do next week but about a credible party of government. If you

:50:10.:50:13.

wearing power now with Jeremy Corbyn as leader and the Conservative

:50:14.:50:18.

backbencher put forward a Private members motion for military action

:50:19.:50:22.

the House of Commons might well vote in favour of military action and the

:50:23.:50:26.

PM would be against it. That is what the public would see, these people

:50:27.:50:30.

all over the place. I have said part of this is a matter of conscience, I

:50:31.:50:36.

am also a realist about party management and the fact of the

:50:37.:50:42.

matter is it is very tough for Jeremy Corbyn. As an MP he is

:50:43.:50:48.

somebody who voted against the wet 550 times himself. His ability to

:50:49.:50:57.

whip the party, let's be realistic, call a spade a spade, it is very

:50:58.:51:01.

difficult for him to get the cohesion cause of his track record

:51:02.:51:06.

as an MP and that is a factor. I am realistic about that. I also think

:51:07.:51:11.

that is one of the reasons the PM is bringing this so quickly, Jeremy

:51:12.:51:16.

Corbyn has not had an opportunity to prepare a cohesive and coherent

:51:17.:51:19.

platform. We have got to get over this up and Corey eight cohesive

:51:20.:51:24.

Parliamentary Labour Party, it is deeply cohesion for credibility.

:51:25.:51:29.

Able to not vote for divided parties. We are where we are now and

:51:30.:51:34.

because of Jeremy Corbyn's track record as a serial disregard of the

:51:35.:51:40.

whip he is finding it particularly difficult. Get over this. We need to

:51:41.:51:45.

see some coherence coming in in the New Year and what is critical as

:51:46.:51:49.

well are our results, in the elections next year. It amounts to

:51:50.:51:56.

say we would like to be a credible alternative party of government but

:51:57.:52:01.

just not now? I am being realistic about where we are in the

:52:02.:52:05.

Parliamentary Labour Party and the fact of the matter is that the track

:52:06.:52:08.

record of Jeremy Corbyn does make this difficult. We have two bill

:52:09.:52:14.

that coherence. We have got to build it going into the Scottish, Welsh

:52:15.:52:18.

and London elections next year particularly. We are a party of

:52:19.:52:24.

government. The only way we can put our policies and values into

:52:25.:52:29.

practice is by being in government. We are not a protest movement. Let's

:52:30.:52:34.

see how it looks in Scotland, Wales and London and then we can start to

:52:35.:52:40.

look like that party. According to your party you have got to stop

:52:41.:52:44.

looking like a protest movement before the election, you have four

:52:45.:52:47.

or five months at most. Because the prime minister has

:52:48.:52:59.

brought this rapidly, and because of the big issues I have just outlined

:53:00.:53:04.

over Jeremy Corbyn's track record, but also because this is a matter of

:53:05.:53:08.

individual conscience. And look at the Tory party they are divided as

:53:09.:53:12.

well. Less divided on us numerically, but their whips have

:53:13.:53:17.

two get people who are uncomfortable with this boat to have their arms

:53:18.:53:22.

twisted. That is not the case with the Labour Party at the present

:53:23.:53:23.

time. Thank you for joining us. Time now to review the events

:53:24.:53:26.

of the week and look to what's Joining me is political editor

:53:27.:53:29.

of the Scottish Daily Mail, Alan Roden, and the historical

:53:30.:53:37.

novelist Sara Sheridan. On Syria, Alan, what do you make of

:53:38.:53:52.

what Stephen Kenedy has just said -- Stephen Kinnock has just said. And

:53:53.:53:57.

is on the saying, we're not serious as a party but I hope we will get

:53:58.:54:00.

serious soon. Or am I misinterpreting? You are right, they

:54:01.:54:06.

are a protest movement at the moment, and I don't think that is

:54:07.:54:10.

going to happen for a long time to come. Labour have already lost a

:54:11.:54:16.

by-election. I think Scottish Labour now they have already lost that

:54:17.:54:20.

election. Labour is a party which is out of step not only in Westminster

:54:21.:54:27.

but also with its voters. And that is what has really happened. There

:54:28.:54:32.

is a split between left and right, and actually the Parliamentary

:54:33.:54:37.

Labour Party... Which part of the argument be taken out of step with

:54:38.:54:41.

the voters? I think the Parliamentary Labour Party as a

:54:42.:54:44.

whole is far too far to the right. Mostly reporters are further to the

:54:45.:54:47.

left, and that is traditionally where Labour comes from. On military

:54:48.:54:55.

action in Syria? Look at the marchers yesterday stop. The remark

:54:56.:54:58.

is all over the UK. Is that not the point with Jeremy Corbyn

:54:59.:55:03.

supporters? The mistake a few thousand people on a march with the

:55:04.:55:07.

mood of the country. No I don't think so, if you look at what is

:55:08.:55:11.

going on, is a one-upmanship about going to war, let on, that is the

:55:12.:55:16.

easy option, but it does not work in the Middle East for a long time

:55:17.:55:19.

now. America has been bombing for 18 months in Syria and it is not

:55:20.:55:28.

working. We can discuss the merits endlessly, but this issue of which

:55:29.:55:32.

part of the Labour Party that a step with the public, what is your view?

:55:33.:55:38.

The public is divided on the issue, the opinion polls show that. Jeremy

:55:39.:55:42.

Corbyn is in touch with his membership not with the wider

:55:43.:55:45.

public, and that includes Labour voters, people who are maybe not

:55:46.:55:49.

active in the party but have voted for the party and now deserting the

:55:50.:55:53.

party. Lets be devils advocate because you are both criticising the

:55:54.:55:55.

Labour Party. The counterargument would be to say that it is good that

:55:56.:56:00.

the Labour Party and Conservative Party are having opened

:56:01.:56:05.

discussions. Look at the SNP. There has been not one member of

:56:06.:56:09.

opposition from the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon was saying only a few days

:56:10.:56:13.

ago she wanted to hear David Cameron's arguments. Are we supposed

:56:14.:56:17.

to believe that spontaneously all 54 SNP MPs and all their members in the

:56:18.:56:22.

Scottish Parliament just agree completely with the opposition? That

:56:23.:56:27.

would be completely unnatural, wouldn't it? We have not heard a

:56:28.:56:34.

murmur of opposition. Yes, but the Labour story is a much more

:56:35.:56:38.

compelling. I'm playing devils advocate, but Labour would say, we

:56:39.:56:44.

cannot disguise the fact we are divided, at least we're having an

:56:45.:56:46.

open debate. Look at that lot, there is no debate all. Labour tried this

:56:47.:56:52.

with the Trident debate at the conference, they said we have open

:56:53.:56:59.

views. But the public do not want parties that are divided. Look at

:57:00.:57:01.

the SNP, they have rigid discipline. People voted for them in

:57:02.:57:08.

their droves. The SNP will have people who are against bombing but

:57:09.:57:10.

they will not speak out because they are strongly with. Fine changes the

:57:11.:57:14.

other issue we have been discussing today. Sara, do you have any hopes

:57:15.:57:22.

that Paris might be more... Copenhagen just was a disaster. We

:57:23.:57:26.

live in that hope, that it might work. The point about Copenhagen, it

:57:27.:57:32.

did not just not achieve things, it contributed towards taking the issue

:57:33.:57:36.

off the agenda for five years. Bill Gates is heading to Paris this week

:57:37.:57:40.

and he's bringing his pocketbook. What the Conservatives have done in

:57:41.:57:44.

taking this money away from the project that they were going to fun

:57:45.:57:49.

for carbon capture has set a very clear message. I think the

:57:50.:57:52.

Conservatives are lining up for a magical solution very sharply down

:57:53.:57:56.

the line to say," we could do fracking instead!" Which is what

:57:57.:58:01.

they would like. Who would much rather have that. Out of the

:58:02.:58:08.

arrogant -- part of the argued it would have is that you have

:58:09.:58:11.

gas-fired power stations therefore it is less important to have carbon

:58:12.:58:17.

capture and storage. Pulling that money is an idiotic move at the same

:58:18.:58:20.

time as saying, would it not be good if we have private investment? There

:58:21.:58:23.

is Bill Gates with his pocketbook ready and open for business in Paris

:58:24.:58:26.

next week, and they have kind of loan at. Alan, you said the public

:58:27.:58:32.

is divided over military action in Syria. What about climate change? Is

:58:33.:58:37.

there a sense promote people that it has just gone away, disappeared as

:58:38.:58:42.

an issue? I think it is an issue. Not as big an issue as politicians

:58:43.:58:50.

like Patrick RB would say it is. In Paris things will be put forward, it

:58:51.:58:53.

will not be legally binding, you cannot force governments to do

:58:54.:59:02.

things. And hundreds of thousands of tonnes of carbon dioxide will be

:59:03.:59:05.

produced from the conference, which seems ludicrous. But going back to

:59:06.:59:09.

carbon capture, it is an easy political decision for the

:59:10.:59:10.

Chancellor to make to cut that. I'll be back

:59:11.:59:12.

at the same time next week.

:59:13.:59:17.

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