Browse content similar to 29/11/2015. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning and welcome. Government issues its plan for air strikes in | :00:44. | :00:56. | |
Syria. We will hear from Liam Fox and the Respect party leader George | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
Galloway. Jeremy Corbyn is struggling to get his way over Syria | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
as he tries to persuade his Shadow Cabinet. We will hear from the | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
Shadow Justice Secretary. And the former Conservative Party chairman | :01:13. | :01:13. | |
Grant Shapps resigns from the government or allegations he failed | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
to act over bullying claims inside the Tory party. Is that the end of | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
the story? And coming up on | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
Sunday Politics Scotland: As heads of state gather | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
for climate change talks in Paris, the UK Government cuts funding | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
for new technology which could So, yesterday, | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
former Conservative Party chairman Grant Shapps resigned from | :01:30. | :01:41. | |
the Government over allegations he failed to act on claims of bullying | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
in the youth wing of the party. It's a complicated story, | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
as Giles Dilnot explains. Grant Shapps, former co-chair | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
of the Conservative Party and now a former minister, must wish | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
as his senior aide Paul Abbot Clarke once tipped for the top | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
by Tatler magazine unsuccessfully As a result of his behaviour | :02:05. | :02:23. | |
during that campaign, about which complaints were made, he | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
was taken off the candidates list. A girlfriend at the time declaring | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
he was "unfit to be an MP". In early 2014, | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
Mr Clarke approached the Conservatives and Grant Shapps | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
in particular with an idea. It was simple, bus loads of young | :02:40. | :02:41. | |
Tory activists to marginal seats during the 2015 general election | :02:42. | :02:48. | |
campaign to doorstep constituents. In the face of of unshifting polls, | :02:49. | :02:51. | |
the idea appealed to Conservative Central Headquarters but they | :02:52. | :02:57. | |
wanted to have some control over it. Grant Shapps decided not only to | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
back the idea, but help pay for it, and put Clarke in charge | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
of the operation. never met are you going to be a part | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
of this? -- are you going to be? Roadtrip 2015, | :03:10. | :03:19. | |
as the plan was called, had another motive for Clarke, to see him back | :03:20. | :03:21. | |
on the Conservative candidate list and perhaps he would have and this | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
story ended if not for the apparent suicide in mid-September | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
of a young activist called Elliot Johnson, who left a note, naming | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
Mark Clarke as someone who'd been bullying him and a secret recording | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
of Clarke challenging him in a pub. In the wake of Elliot Johnson's | :03:33. | :03:35. | |
death, lurid allegations emerged about Clarke, alleging sexual | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
misconduct, drugs, intimidation, blackmail and bullying connected to | :03:39. | :03:39. | |
Roadtrip, all denied by Mark Clarke. But August e-mail exchanges | :03:40. | :03:51. | |
between Mr Clarke and Mr Shapps' aide Paul Abbot show Mr Abbott was | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
aware of complaints Nothing was done and since Mr Shapps | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
gave Clarke an official Party role he has now resigned saying | :03:56. | :04:03. | |
"the buck stops with me". The Prime Minister says a full | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
internal investigation is under way. Elliot Johnson's father wants an | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
independent external investigation. The most serious allegations | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
about Clarke were made after Grant Shapps had been moved to | :04:16. | :04:17. | |
a junior ministerial position and Lord Feldman, David Cameron's | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
chief fundraiser and close friend, He says the party cannot find | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
nor was aware of any written If, by falling on his sword, | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
Mr Shapps hoped to stop the scandal spreading, | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
he may actually only have become The Sunday Politics panel is here. | :04:39. | :04:57. | |
Nick, here is the case for Shapps. He has been made a scapegoat. This | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
is not the end of the story. I think it is not the end of the story. | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
Grant Shapps did sign up Mark Clark to do this. I think it is getting | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
awfully close to the door of Andrew Feldman. They went -- he went to | :05:13. | :05:22. | |
college with the Prime Minister and organised some balls. They go back a | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
long way. The road trip was run out of Conservative campaign | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
headquarters in the run-up to the general election. Most significantly | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
for Andrew Feldman, he signed the for Andrew Feldman, he signed the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
checks to allow the road trip to take place. We're not talking small | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
cheques, we are talking many hundreds of thousands of pounds. | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
Grant Shapps was in charge of it on a day-to-day basis but Andrew | :05:46. | :05:58. | |
Feldman and his sister helped the running of the road trip. What it | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
does is put the attention onto some of the attention onto summary the | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
attention would be, what did Andrew Feldman do? What did he know and | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
when and what did he do? What we have to remember is Baroness Warsi, | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
who was co-chairman, kicked this guy out of the party. Feldman was | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
Chairman Ben and Shapps brought him out of the party. Feldman was | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
back. Feldman was co-chairman and Feldman is still the chairman now. | :06:28. | :06:30. | |
In terms of the party, what some people were saying to me yesterday, | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
actually, it cannot be seen that Cameron is protecting Lord Fellman | :06:36. | :06:44. | |
-- Feldman because he is his friend. He has got questions to answer. I | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
also think that if people who are in the party feel these questions are | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
not being answered, and it is not an open process, loads more leaks will | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
come out and it will get messier and messier and messier. It is a rum do, | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
what was going on inside the Tory Party in its youth wing. Multiple | :07:07. | :07:12. | |
allegations of bullying and sexual harassment. Culminating in this | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
young man taking his life on a railway line. It is an appalling | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
thing. There is a history of unusual behaviour amongst Conservative | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
students going back to the 1980s when Norman Tebbit closed down the | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
Confederation of Conservative students. It is the most extreme | :07:29. | :07:37. | |
incident I have ever encountered. This is about personal behaviour. | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
The parents of Elliott Johnson raised an important question of | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
chronology. Grant Shapps stop being co-chairman in May. Some of the | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
allegations against Mark Clark, some of the complaints surfaced as | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
recently as August. There is a deeper structural problem, which is | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
the Conservative Party does not have activists. They have to find them | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
where they can get them. Or, when summary has a reputation as bad as | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
Mark Clark, they end up going along with them because options are so | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
limited. It will not be the end of the story. | :08:20. | :08:21. | |
David Cameron is expected to ask MPs to approve UK air strikes | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
The Government thinks it now has enough support to risk a vote | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
in the Commons, even though the Labour Party is still unclear. | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
And the PM will almost certainly need Labour votes to get his way. | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
Mr Corbyn is still trying to rally his Shadow Cabinet and Labour MPs | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
He told Andrew Marr they should recognise his direct mandate | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
And so what I've done is what I said I would always do, | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
I would try to democratise the way the party does things. | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
Yes, I have sent an e-mail to party members, and actually, | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
70,000 have already replied with their views. | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
I don't know what all the views are, obviously, I haven't read them all, | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
Surely we must recognise that in a democracy, the Labour Party has | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
a very large membership, nearly 400,000 members, they have a right | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
to express their point of view and MPs have to listen to it and have to | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
try and understand what's going on in the minds | :09:12. | :09:13. | |
I've been joined by Charlie Falconer, Jeremy Corbyn's | :09:14. | :09:24. | |
Are you minded to support government on the subject of Syrian air | :09:25. | :09:37. | |
strikes? I am. Then need to be assurances, given to the House of | :09:38. | :09:38. | |
Commons but I am minded to support assurances, given to the House of | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
air strikes. The reason I am, I think Isil poses a threat to the | :09:43. | :09:48. | |
region and also Europe, including the United Kingdom. I believe air | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
strikes over Iraq and Syria are having an effect on reducing that | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
risk. I think it is wrong that we are participating in Syria when what | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
is going on is we are trying to defend the United Kingdom. I believe | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
the only long-term solution is there needs to be a solution to the Syrian | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
civil war and the bombing of cracker will not significantly contribute to | :10:13. | :10:22. | |
that. -- Raqqa. I believe we do not have a choice. The likelihood is | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
that the Shadow Cabinet will agree a collective position in this matter. | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
There are honourably held collective views. The Shadow Cabinet on | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
Thursday, they were appropriately discussing. Everybody was conscious | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
of the fact we have to reach a conclusion in national interests. | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
With an issue like this where there is agreement on the factual | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
material, international law, the final judgment, there is such a | :10:51. | :11:00. | |
difficult decision to be made, it is not surprising that our | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
disagreements in the Shadow Cabinet. It is unlikely that tomorrow you | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
will be able to agree a collective line. I think that is right. It is | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
unlikely we'll be able to agree a yes or no answer to the question the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
Government is about to post. If it does not and there is a free vote | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
for this among Labour MPs, it does make it certain that Mr Cameron will | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
win by a convincing majority. I do not know the position. I think | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
everyone is weighing up the merits of the argument. The right thing to | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
do is for mothers of the Parliamentary Labour Party members | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
of the Shadow Cabinet to consider all the arguments and reach a | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
conclusion as to what they think is in the national interest. It is | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
clear that enough Labour MPs will abstain or side with the Government | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
to give Mr Cameron a majority, even if that are some Tory defectors. If | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
the position where it was whipped against by the Labour Party, that | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
with very significantly reduce the chances if it were a free vote. I do | :12:12. | :12:13. | |
with very significantly reduce the not know what the final figures | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
would be. Your figures sound right. Should there be a free vote? What is | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
the alternative given the position you are into a free vote? My own | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
view is I do not think this very important issue should be allowed to | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
be a situation that forces resignations on people. I think the | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
right course is, if the Shadow Cabinet cannot come to a collective | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
view, and I accept that maybe unlikely, probably the best course | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
is a free vote. That is ultimately for the leadership to decide. For an | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
opposition which aspires to government when you're not a | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
debating society. You are the opposition, the alternative | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
government. What would voters think if you cannot agree a collective | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
position on something as important as war? What the Government be | :13:04. | :13:15. | |
seeing is a legitimate debate. The public is like the Parliamentary | :13:16. | :13:17. | |
Labour Party and like the saddo Cabinet, of different views. You | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
need to come to a collective view. We need to know your view on this. | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
The differences with this is I do not think it will be possible. I do | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
not think that is surprising. That reflects the debate that is going on | :13:33. | :13:35. | |
in the country. The debate going on in the country is going on within | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
the Labour Party. If Mr Corbyn was to attempt, and he said this morning | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
it is his decision to whip or not. If there were a decision to whip | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
Labour members to vote against bombing, would that be a resignation | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
matter for you? I do not want to comment on that. I very much hope | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
any sort of resignations will be avoided. I think the position will | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
be we will have a further discussion on Monday and a collective you will | :14:06. | :14:07. | |
be we will have a further discussion be reached as to how we go forward | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
in relation to the progress. One Labour MP told us that Mr Corbyn's | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
and of this vote seems to him like a deliberate search for a fight and he | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
is very disappointed. I do not agree. The key thing about what is | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
happening now is not who sent a letter when. The key thing which the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
public want us to debate is the question itself. Should we support | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
air strikes or not? I think the important thing about this week will | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
not be who said what to whom but will be where you stood on the | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
issue. It is one of those issues where the judgment about what was | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
right and what was wrong will not come on the basis of the politics of | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
these few days. It will come on what happens going forward. What was the | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
right decision? Let me ask you this. We do not have much time. Because | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
you are a lawyer and an expert on the Labour Party, if Labour MPs | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
sought to unseat Mr Corbyn, and there is some wild talk around on | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
that, witty automatically be on the ballot paper of a new leadership | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
election? I have not addressed that. It is not a moment to talk about any | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
sort of leadership challenge. Jeremy Corbyn is leader. He was elected two | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
months ago with a huge mandate. That is the position within the Labour | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Party and that is where we have to address it. It can hardly be a | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
stable position to have a Labour leader, in such a key issue has | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
bombing in Syria, at odds with a huge chunk of his Shadow Cabinet | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
rest room at that position is unsustainable over the period. It | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
was absolutely clear when Jeremy was elected, there were significant | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
disagreements between Jeremy and others on policy. What is happening | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
is the Labour Party is holding together. So far. | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
So, once again a British government is gearing up extend military action | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
It's a well-trod road and the outcome has not always been | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
predictable, or pleasant, which is why so many are hesitant. | :16:20. | :16:22. | |
Ellie Price has been looking at the Prime Minister's case | :16:23. | :16:24. | |
for action, and what role the UK military might play. | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
That bomb in Paris, that could have been London. | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
If they had their way, it would be London. | :16:34. | :16:35. | |
I can't stand here and say we're safe | :16:36. | :16:37. | |
I can't stand here either and say we will remove the threat | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
that taking action will degrade and reduce that threat over time? | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
Absolutely, and I've examined my conscience | :16:48. | :16:49. | |
David Cameron says he no longer wants to outsource this sort | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
Britain is currently involved in air strikes against so-called Islamic | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
State, but only in Iraq, shown here in the bottom half of this shot. | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
The border, for British forces at least, is crucial. | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
IS, Isis, Daesh - whatever you want to call it - control or is free to | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
operate in swathes of territory in Iraq and Syria. | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
Its so-called caliphate stretches from Aleppo in Syria to | :17:22. | :17:24. | |
The lines on the map are relatively fluid, it recently lost control | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
That was down to Kurdish forces with the help of US-led air strikes. | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
Currently Australia, Canada and France are also flying | :17:38. | :17:40. | |
bombing missions over both countries, targeting IS. | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
According to the latest figures released on Friday, | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
the US and its allies operating under the banner of Operation | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
Inherent Resolve have conducted more than 8,500 air strikes against | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
Islamic State targets since the start of the campaign last year. | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
That's 5,580 air strikes in Iraq and 2,925 in Syria. | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
More than 16,000 targets have been damaged or destroyed, | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
including more than 4,500 buildings, nearly 5,000 fighting positions, and | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
The vast majority have come from US aircraft, but the RAF has run 376 | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
They've been launched from this base in Cyprus, where | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
The base has also been used to carry out refuelling and | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
The perception out there is the question as to whether or not | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
the UK should be involved in the campaign in Syria or not. | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
The reality is we are involved in that campaign but in an inconsistent | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Other countries, our allies, the Americans and French | :18:50. | :19:04. | |
in particular, just don't quite understand where we are up to. | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
The PM insists the RAF can provide specific skills | :19:08. | :19:09. | |
that coalition partners are keen to make the most of. | :19:10. | :19:12. | |
The ability to launch highly accurate Brimstone missiles. | :19:13. | :19:13. | |
We are very good at not killing people collaterally, | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
the UK, so in that sense I think us moving into Syria is good. | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
The sad thing is that no matter how good you are, there will be innocent | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
people killed but they are dying anyway because of Isil, and it's | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
coming to the stage where you have to move forward and do things, even | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
though that sort of thing happens, that cannot be | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
Of course Russia is also involved in air strikes in Syria, | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
but its support of President Assad's regime puts it at odds with | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
The scale of these tensions demonstrated when Turkey, | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
which vehemently opposes Assad, shot down a Russian plane last week. | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
Most experts agree that air strikes alone will not destroy the common | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
enemy of IS, that ground forces will be needed, but agreeing on exactly | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
who those forces would be, could prove the biggest obstacle to peace. | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
We are joined now by George Galloway. What should be done to | :20:08. | :20:30. | |
thwart Islamic State, if not British bombing, what should be done to hit | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
it in its heartland? Most of these terrorist attacks were carried out | :20:36. | :20:38. | |
by people living in the countries in which they operated, Tunisia, | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
France, Belgium and so on so you will not physically stop people | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
bombing Raqqa turning up on the streets of Paris. But the planning | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
involved Islamic State. There's not much logistics involved in taking | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
arms into a nightclub and killing innocent people. There are many | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
weapons in Europe, nobody is suggesting these weapons came from | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
Syria. I don't want to dodge your question, I must strongly in favour | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
of destroying Isis and Al-Qaeda as anybody else, more than the David | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
Cameron government or they wouldn't be tolerating a situation where | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been supporting these people for years | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
and until now are supporting them. We are steeped in blog so far but it | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
is bloodier to go on, I promise you. What would you do? I would support | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
the people fighting Isis and Al-Qaeda on the ground. The wide PG | :21:47. | :22:01. | |
militia -- YPG militia. Give them weapons, every kind of support we | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
can. It is a far better way than us joining in. Do you support Russian | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
attacks on the anti-Assad forces in Syria? Yes, if they are coordinated | :22:18. | :22:25. | |
with the Syrian government's army. So do you support British attacks on | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
Islamic State forces in Iraq at their request of the Iraq | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
government? I do, and if they were coordinated with the Government that | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
make sense militarily, and if we coordinated our involvement with | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
Russia and the Is this the camera not realise that | :22:46. | :23:22. | |
if eating Islamic State is more important than getting rid of Mr | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
Assad. I do not believe that. Is utterly farcical claim in the House | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
this week that there were 70,000 moderate rebels armed and rebel to | :23:35. | :23:43. | |
take over the land. There is not 7000. If there are 700 I would be | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
surprised. What will happen, we will bomb territory that will then be | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
taken by other so-called moderate fanatic 's. The ones that as I said | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
to you before, only caught off half your head. Should we regard the | :24:00. | :24:06. | |
Russians and Assad regime as our allies in the fight against Islamic | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
State? Definitely. And we had the chance after the Security Council | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
decided, we had that chance. But that was incinerated by Allied Mr | :24:17. | :24:25. | |
Erdogan and the Russian air force -- Turkish air force bombing these | :24:26. | :24:27. | |
people out of the sky and provoking a crisis between East and West, | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
between Nato and Russia which was completely unnecessary and | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
completely contrary to any legitimate war aims. Did not still | :24:35. | :24:41. | |
be put together despite that? I wish that it would, I suspect it will | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
not. Russia is taking measures against Turkey. If we had time to | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
discuss that I would elaborate this point. Turkey is the source of this | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
problem. The Turkish border has been open to these people, they are | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
selling their stolen oil, billions of dollars worth. Islamic State | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
selling its oil to Turkey? Yes, it is being sold in Turkey, I believe | :25:03. | :25:11. | |
relatives of Mr Erdogan, it is then sold on to neighbouring countries. | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
You cannot be serious about fighting Isil while you're Nato ally is | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
openly collaborating with them. That is why I suspect Cameron. You | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
followed very closely what is going on in the Labour Party at the | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
moment. Does Jeremy Corbyn have an alternative to a free vote when this | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
comes up to a vote in the Commons? Yellow magnifier were him I would | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
hope the vote, because his enemies, and they are in perpetual rebellion | :25:37. | :25:44. | |
to overthrow Jeremy Corbyn. Five Jeremy Corbyn this is the Touraine | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
on which I would fight because our record on intervention in the Middle | :25:50. | :25:52. | |
East is so bad, the likelihood of it not going well is so high. I would | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
dearly is rebels to facilitate David Cameron's war. Without not rip apart | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
the Labour Party? Or would that be the intention? It kind of looks to | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
me like it is ripping itself apart. This is 1931 revisited, Mrs Ramsay | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
MacDonald in reverse, the leader remaining loyal to the party and the | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
MPs effectively joining in national government in times of War and peace | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
at least. If I were Jeremy Corbyn I would hope this boat and let the | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
Labour members pass verdict on those that trip into the lobby with Liam | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
Fox and David Cameron because I'm pretty sure this will not end well. | :26:36. | :26:40. | |
Even at the expense of ripping apart your Shadow Cabinet? You would be | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
ripping a Shadow Cabinet weather seems to be a majority against the | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
position of Jeremy Corbyn. Some of them might surprise you with their | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
Fidelity, but they are supporting the elected leader as the rope | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
supporting hanging man. The hanging man is asphyxiated in the end. What | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
are the chances of Jeremy Corbyn following your advice? Probably not, | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
listening to John Dunlop and Ken Livingstone, they are going to go | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
for a free vote. That will merely postpone the push. It will give Mr | :27:17. | :27:23. | |
Cameron in the majority and will only postpone the push against | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
Jeremy Corbyn. George Galloway, thank you for being with us. At this | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
As heads of state gather for climate change talks in Paris, | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
the UK Government cuts funding for new technology which could | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military | :27:45. | :27:52. | |
You cannot develop the first project easily without government backing. | :27:53. | :27:55. | |
And the Defence Secretary is hoping for a Commons vote on UK military | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
action in Syria this week - will he get support from Labour MPs? | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
As global CO2 emissions continue to rise, heads of state from around | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
the world are arriving in Paris for UN climate change talks, where | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
That comes at the end of a week in which the UK Government scrapped | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
a ?1 billion competition to develop the country's first plant to store | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
emissions instead of releasing them into the air, | :28:21. | :28:22. | |
UK ministers said the programme was a victim of ongoing spending cuts | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
needed to balance the books, but supporters of the technology say | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
For generations, power stations are provided it reliable and relatively | :28:35. | :28:49. | |
cheap way to keep the lights on. But now it seems that they are becoming | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
a term as dirty as the pollution they released into the atmosphere. | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
Storing that pollution, known as carbon capture, has been hailed as a | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
solution to the problem. The process involves piping the carbon dioxide | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
produced by places like coal power stations offshore where it can be | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
stored in the space left by a former oil or gas field. The North Sea's | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
massive CO2 storage potential means Scotland could be at the forefront | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
of this technology. In 2013 project at Peterhead power station by Shell | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
and SSE was named as one of two preferred bidder is anyone billion | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
pound UK Government contest to develop carbon capture. It shows | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
that the UK's leading in the low Carbon challenge to tackle climate | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
change and get clean energy. But this week the UK Government | :29:47. | :29:48. | |
announced it was scrapping that support as part of its spending | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
review, and some argue that is bad news for the chances of getting | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
carbon capture up and running. You cannot develop the first project | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
easily without government backing because any first project is usually | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
much more expensive than follow-on project because you are over | :30:06. | :30:07. | |
designing and overengineering, and that is why that government help of | :30:08. | :30:14. | |
the billion pounds is needed. To not venture down this path when it is | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
clearly shown that carbon capture and storage is by far the best | :30:18. | :30:20. | |
financial benefit to the whole economy, to not venture down that | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
path is negligent, naive and also deceitful in the way it has been | :30:26. | :30:32. | |
done. We have been here before. Ministers delayed stand accused of | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
bungling and incompetence over the cancellation of a project to fight | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
global warming. In 2007 BP abandon plans for a carbon capture plan at | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
Peterhead, blaming Westminster delays. A similar plan for Longannet | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
in Fife went the same way four years later when ministers failed to reach | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
a deal with power companies. And in September, an energy firm abandoned | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
its stake in a project to store carbon dioxide mixed its plant in | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
North Yorkshire. That came after a government decision to cut renewable | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
energy subsidies. And while carbon capture has the ability to | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
dramatically reduce emissions, environmental campaigners are | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
cautious about something which continues the burning of fossil | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
fuels. Carbon capture and storage may have a role to play, but we do | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
not know. We do not know how commercially or technically | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
efficient it will be. Do not know how long-term trust can be developed | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
in the reservoirs into which CO2 would be injected, how long it would | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
stay there. That we are happy to see the research happen. Now that the UK | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
has pulled the plug on that, we need to be very clear that Scotland's | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
future potential, our ability to get back on track and start meeting | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
those climate change targets is based on building a low carbon | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
infrastructure and rolling out -- ruling out the burning of fossil | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
fuels. What chance is there of carbon capture coming to this | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
country? Following the announcement this week, one of the partners in | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
the Peterhead Project, Shell, said that without its funding its | :32:09. | :32:11. | |
proposals were not viable for no. And that presents another project, | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
because if coal power stations begin closing because they cannot cut CO2 | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
emissions, we need to find another way to keep the lights on. UK | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
ministers want to see a move away from coal towards gas-fired power | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
stations, although they still see a potential role for carbon capture. | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
As for the now-defunct Willian Penn support fund, that has been put down | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
to a need to balance the government's looks. -- the ?1 | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
billion aboard fund. Ministers will attend climate talks in Paris next | :32:48. | :32:52. | |
week. As they discuss how to tackle the problem, the world's CO2 | :32:53. | :32:54. | |
emissions continue to rise. We asked the Secretary of State for | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
Energy and Climate change, Amber Rudd, and the Minister of State, | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
Andrea Leadsom, for an interview, The Department of Energy and | :33:02. | :33:03. | |
Climate Change told us the decision to cut funding for CCS was a fiscal | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
one, announced by the Chancellor. We also asked the Conservative Party | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
for an interview on this issue But I'm pleased to say we are joined | :33:17. | :33:32. | |
from Stornoway by the SNP MP Angus MacNeil, who's Chair | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
of Westminster's Energy and And in the studio, the Scottish | :33:39. | :33:40. | |
Greens' Patrick Harvie and the former Labour MP and Shadow Energy | :33:41. | :33:45. | |
Minister Tom Greatrex, who's now Angus, can I start with some factual | :33:46. | :34:00. | |
questions to you. It is unfortunate but do not have anyone from the | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
Government here, but this was not announced by George Osborne, it was | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
not even in the Redbook documents, it was in an announcement to the | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
stock exchange which came after the Chancellor sat down after his Autumn | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
Statement. Have you received the new committee any explanation as to why | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
this decision has been made? None whatsoever. It looks again like the | :34:22. | :34:28. | |
government is fairly chaotic, one hand does not know what the other is | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
up to. Only a few days before Amber Rudd had a speech there was no | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
mention of this. It was not in the Autumn Statement, I went to the | :34:38. | :34:39. | |
House of Commons library that evening with one of the researchers | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
trawled through the documents and could not find anything. I should | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
point out for viewers who are perhaps not familiar with the | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
language of government documents, for the Department of energy to tell | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
us in an e-mail that this was a fiscal decision made by the | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
Chancellor, I don't know if you agree, but it seems to me that is as | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
close as you will ever get to a government department saying, we did | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
not necessarily agree with it and it had nothing to do with us! Correct, | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
and would not be the first time, I do not think the new much in the | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
Department, the story was first leaked to the Daily Telegraph of the | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
intention is to cut support for onshore wind. If Scotland was | :35:21. | :35:25. | |
independent it would never vote to be governed by this lot. What next? | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
Who can have any trust in them? They are as slippery as seaweed. Before | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
we get on to the substance of the issue, arguably this is a very | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
unconservative thing to do. One of the things you want to do surely is | :35:44. | :35:50. | |
respect contracts. I am not here on behalf of the Conservative Party. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
But is that an aspect of this? People will not necessarily have | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
much sympathy with big oil companies, but the fact is they have | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
sunk money into this and at the last moment have been told, that does not | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
matter, this will not happen. Firstly, this is not new, the | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
Treasury antipathy towards carbon capture and storage goes back, when | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
the company pulled out of Longannet, and again that ?1 billion was moved | :36:17. | :36:21. | |
away from the Department of Energy and Climate Change. Technically it | :36:22. | :36:28. | |
has not sat there. One of the things they have said this week is that | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
they want to start a competition for these new generation modular new | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
clear power stations. Irrespective of whether you think that is a good | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
idea, if you are energy company, you might be thinking, I will not invest | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
money in this because they could do what they have just done with carbon | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
capture. Absolutely. Just a few weeks short of the announcement of | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
which of the two final project would win the competition, to then cut it | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
away like that, quite apart from the merits of carbon capture technology, | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
it sends a very bad signal to potential investors and is on top of | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
a range of similar moves in other areas, and you can have debates | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
about the merits of individual technologies, but the overall | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
message it sends an terms of energy investment is very poor, and for the | :37:13. | :37:18. | |
UK, our position which was very good in terms of energy investment, is | :37:19. | :37:21. | |
deteriorating over time because the risk factor of sudden political | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
change is so high, and in the Conservative Party manifesto they | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
referred to ?1 billion for carbon capture and storage, and less than | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
six months later it has gone. Patrick Harvie, are you not very | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
keen on this? On carbon capture in principle? We are very keen, we are | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
happy to see the research happen. Have never been convinced anybody, | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
including government, should take that as it promised that the | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
technology will be deployable on any set timescale. And both governments, | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
Scottish and UK, have made the assumption they can design energy | :37:57. | :37:59. | |
policy with that expectation that CCF will be available. You will have | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
been in favour of the condition going ahead, of companies trying to | :38:05. | :38:10. | |
develop this, but you do not want governments of any description to be | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
forecasting by me change emission cuts on the basis of technology | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
which has not been proven? To be building in plans of new fossil fuel | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
power generation on the assumption they can then bolt on CCS at some | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
future point. We have never known that would be a guaranteed | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
possibility, it is certainly something we should be researching, | :38:31. | :38:32. | |
something we should like to develop and find out what potential it has. | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
But now that the Government has pulled the plug, it may happen in | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
the long-term, it will not be short-term availability, so we need | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
to rule out fossil fuel generation capacity. The other thing is that | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
George Osborne wants to close coal-fired power station but once | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
another generation of quick to build these power gas generating power | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
stations. And in the short term that can reduce emissions. Over a | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
long-term trajectory... You might disagree with that decision to go | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
ahead, but given that that decision has been made, would it not make | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
more sense, would it not be even more important to try to get CCS to | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
mitigate the emissions from this new generation of power stations? | :39:24. | :39:35. | |
The build new capacity you would need CCS. I would challenge the | :39:36. | :39:44. | |
Scottish Government to rule out any additional fossil fuel power | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
generating capacity and I would welcome it if they would give that | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
clarity. And yes, I know the SMP would like to try to convince the | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
government to change its mind on this. If you are going to have a new | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
generation of gas-fired power stations you might as well try to | :40:02. | :40:04. | |
mitigate the emissions but do you think you can win over the committee | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
to Europe edition? I have a feeling that yes, the committee will be open | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
to move towards that position. It is hard to speak for the committee | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
itself. The chairman of the committee on climate change has said | :40:20. | :40:24. | |
at the fifth cabinet budget launch on Thursday morning that to achieve | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
the 2030 targets will be difficult and it is an issue with this ending | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
of this project so abruptly. Tom's point was very good, the government | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
are leaving huge uncertainty on onshore wind, the left uncertainty | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
on solar, now there is uncertainty on carbon capture and storage. The | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
problem is for investors. Some are calling to the Republic of Ireland | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
to invest because of the feel of what is happening in the UK. This is | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
the second time Peterhead has lost carbon capture and storage. Alistair | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
Darling pulled the plug on an earlier project one decade ago. You | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
are no longer an MP just getting at an opinion, you are cheered of this | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
committee. What will you ask your committee to do about this if | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
anything? At the moment the committee is having an investigation | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
into investor confidence. We did not think it would be involved with the | :41:24. | :41:26. | |
investigation at the outset, carbon capture, but we think it will be. We | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
will be hearing from Shell during this and will have them what this | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
means for their confidence and investing in energy issues and | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
energy projects on the word of the UK Government. It is not for me to | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
guess what they are going to say but I think it is obvious they will not | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
be happy. Tom, is Patrick Hardy's point well made that what | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
governments tend to do is assume these technologies will work then | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
build that into their emission forecast? Carbon capture has not got | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
any rear so far. It has in other places. In Canada and shortly in the | :42:07. | :42:17. | |
US. The lazy operating dash there is operating a carbon capture plant in | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
Saskatchewan. And it is another one similar to the project outside the | :42:23. | :42:28. | |
competition in Grangemouth. Even our clients for carbon capture in China | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
so the technology does exist. If it is the and being utilised why do we | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
need a competition to see if the competition is feasible? The | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
complexity comes with, you can capture the carbon, stored the | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
carbon, we are in a strong position in terms of depleted offshore being | :42:47. | :42:54. | |
able to store it. The transport can be complex depending on where you | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
are in different sites. What is it that has too been open? Let's | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
imagine Peterhead got this. It is a gas-fired power station taking gas | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
from the North Sea and presumably can pump CO2 into empty wells. What | :43:08. | :43:15. | |
is it that is not proven in the technology that is up and running | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
that would have to be proven now? The one in Canada, it has been less | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
than one year that it has been in operation and the one in the S -- US | :43:24. | :43:30. | |
has been less than a year. They are parallel to the UK competition but | :43:31. | :43:33. | |
there are different requirements that have to be satisfied. There | :43:34. | :43:38. | |
will be value coming out of the competition as it is running in | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
terms of the detailed feed studies that are running and there are | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
potential projects in the UK outside of the UK competition. We would all | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
agree the technology is not developed to the point with it as | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
commercially available. What I find but, I would like to see the public | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
sector and community sector take more ownership of this energy | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
system. There needs to be consistency and clarity. We are | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
running out of time. The panellists talks starting this week, Copenhagen | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
was pretty much a wash-out in the middle of the financial crisis. It | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
was overhyped. Do you have any greater hopes for Paris? I know we | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
still have time to make a radical deal which leaves the bulk of our | :44:29. | :44:32. | |
fossil fuels in the ground where they have two stay. Whether I am | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
hopeful on not, I struggle. You struggle with hope? Angus, the same | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
question to you? I think we're Paris is going at the moment, their | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
intended contributions, it is not far enough but we get it hopeful is | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
that the Americans and Chinese are together. My only problem is the | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
American Senate and the Republicans. Again, very briefly, Tom? Since 2000 | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
and 966 countries at the climate change act or equivalent and I think | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
it also aligns with people's domestic issues in China and Africa | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
and places like think there is more scope for an agreement than the was | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
in Copenhagen. It is a problem. To be discussed further. Thank you very | :45:22. | :45:22. | |
much indeed. Now, the Defence Secretary Michael | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
Fallon confirmed this morning that he's briefed some Labour MPs in | :45:27. | :45:28. | |
an attempt to win their support for Mr Fallon told the Andrew Marr | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
programme that the government would like to hold a vote on | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
the issue this week but that it did Meanwhile the Labour leader Jeremy | :45:38. | :45:40. | |
Corbyn has defended his decision to publically declare his opposition to | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
action before the Shadow Cabinet He has not yet decided whether | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
to allow his MPs a free vote. I'm joined from London by the | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, who's also Parliamentary Private | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
Secretary to the Shadow Business Stephen as was discussed this | :45:59. | :46:19. | |
morning, he has gone to see individual MPs, has he come to you? | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
He has not come knocking on my door, I have been an Studios, maybe | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
Michael has been trying to get through to me. Which way would you | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
be inclined to vote? I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
agree we need to eradicate the modernist death cult that is Isis | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
but we have to do that with a ground offensive. We will not be able to do | :46:46. | :46:50. | |
that if we are discarded -- distracted by a real bombardments. I | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
viewed the PM has put the cart before the horse. Let's get the | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
politics right. We must get a regional force in place, taking Isis | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
out, then I will be more than happy to support that initiative but as | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
things stand I am not convinced by the case of the PM. I am planning to | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
vote against unless the PM comes forward in the next hours with some | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
much cleaner proposal in terms of getting a ground force together | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
which will be taking Isis out. -- much clearer. You have been making | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
out the problems with the strategy of the PM but we do not consider an | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
argument that the damage to the international coalition emerging | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
against Isis, it should they be a vote in the House of Commons against | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
action, should trump some of the reservations you have. They are not | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
necessarily incompatible with what David Cameron is planning to do, he | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
would say he probably agrees with you in all this? I think we have a | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
once in a generation opportunity now to bring the Russians and Iranians | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
to the table. We are making real progress on Vienna full op adding | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
more on this from the Earth to that distracts from the most promising | :48:10. | :48:16. | |
pieces of this jigsaw puzzle which is that we could start to build a | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
corporate coalition which takes the platform to take Isis out. I | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
understand absolutely we need to make a gesture towards our brothers | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
and sisters in France and to show solidarity, I do not actually think | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
putting the cart before the horse is the best way to do that. This is not | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
just an issue about Syria but it has become an issue about the Labour | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
Party. What would you like to see Jeremy Corbyn do? Should he have a | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
wet vote for your possession or should she allowed a free vote? -- | :48:54. | :49:02. | |
whipped. He should have come out within 24 hours of the PM statement | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
to say he was not persuaded and to ask for a free vote. It is a matter | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
of individual conscience, and extremely complex issue. A lot of my | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party are examining their | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
consciences. It is not party political in the nature of Trident. | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
I think we absolutely have to be whipped on Trident and I am in | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
favour of maintaining a nuclear deterrent but on this issue which is | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
on the immediate and complex decision on what to do in Syria, I | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
think it is right it is an individual vote. I know we were | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
whipped on Iraq and Libya but we have two say we have learned from | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
Iraq and Libya and Afghanistan and therefore there is a case for an | :49:53. | :50:05. | |
non-whipped vote on this occasion. This is not just about what Labour | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
MPs do next week but about a credible party of government. If you | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
wearing power now with Jeremy Corbyn as leader and the Conservative | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
backbencher put forward a Private members motion for military action | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
the House of Commons might well vote in favour of military action and the | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
PM would be against it. That is what the public would see, these people | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
all over the place. I have said part of this is a matter of conscience, I | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
am also a realist about party management and the fact of the | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
matter is it is very tough for Jeremy Corbyn. As an MP he is | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
somebody who voted against the wet 550 times himself. His ability to | :50:49. | :50:57. | |
whip the party, let's be realistic, call a spade a spade, it is very | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
difficult for him to get the cohesion cause of his track record | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
as an MP and that is a factor. I am realistic about that. I also think | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
that is one of the reasons the PM is bringing this so quickly, Jeremy | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
Corbyn has not had an opportunity to prepare a cohesive and coherent | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
platform. We have got to get over this up and Corey eight cohesive | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party, it is deeply cohesion for credibility. | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Able to not vote for divided parties. We are where we are now and | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
because of Jeremy Corbyn's track record as a serial disregard of the | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
whip he is finding it particularly difficult. Get over this. We need to | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
see some coherence coming in in the New Year and what is critical as | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
well are our results, in the elections next year. It amounts to | :51:50. | :51:56. | |
say we would like to be a credible alternative party of government but | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
just not now? I am being realistic about where we are in the | :52:02. | :52:05. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party and the fact of the matter is that the track | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
record of Jeremy Corbyn does make this difficult. We have two bill | :52:09. | :52:14. | |
that coherence. We have got to build it going into the Scottish, Welsh | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
and London elections next year particularly. We are a party of | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
government. The only way we can put our policies and values into | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
practice is by being in government. We are not a protest movement. Let's | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
see how it looks in Scotland, Wales and London and then we can start to | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
look like that party. According to your party you have got to stop | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
looking like a protest movement before the election, you have four | :52:45. | :52:47. | |
or five months at most. Because the prime minister has | :52:48. | :52:59. | |
brought this rapidly, and because of the big issues I have just outlined | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
over Jeremy Corbyn's track record, but also because this is a matter of | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
individual conscience. And look at the Tory party they are divided as | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
well. Less divided on us numerically, but their whips have | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
two get people who are uncomfortable with this boat to have their arms | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
twisted. That is not the case with the Labour Party at the present | :53:23. | :53:23. | |
time. Thank you for joining us. Time now to review the events | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
of the week and look to what's Joining me is political editor | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
of the Scottish Daily Mail, Alan Roden, and the historical | :53:30. | :53:37. | |
novelist Sara Sheridan. On Syria, Alan, what do you make of | :53:38. | :53:52. | |
what Stephen Kenedy has just said -- Stephen Kinnock has just said. And | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
is on the saying, we're not serious as a party but I hope we will get | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
serious soon. Or am I misinterpreting? You are right, they | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
are a protest movement at the moment, and I don't think that is | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
going to happen for a long time to come. Labour have already lost a | :54:11. | :54:16. | |
by-election. I think Scottish Labour now they have already lost that | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
election. Labour is a party which is out of step not only in Westminster | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
but also with its voters. And that is what has really happened. There | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
is a split between left and right, and actually the Parliamentary | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
Labour Party... Which part of the argument be taken out of step with | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
the voters? I think the Parliamentary Labour Party as a | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
whole is far too far to the right. Mostly reporters are further to the | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
left, and that is traditionally where Labour comes from. On military | :54:48. | :54:55. | |
action in Syria? Look at the marchers yesterday stop. The remark | :54:56. | :54:58. | |
is all over the UK. Is that not the point with Jeremy Corbyn | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
supporters? The mistake a few thousand people on a march with the | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
mood of the country. No I don't think so, if you look at what is | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
going on, is a one-upmanship about going to war, let on, that is the | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
easy option, but it does not work in the Middle East for a long time | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
now. America has been bombing for 18 months in Syria and it is not | :55:20. | :55:28. | |
working. We can discuss the merits endlessly, but this issue of which | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
part of the Labour Party that a step with the public, what is your view? | :55:33. | :55:38. | |
The public is divided on the issue, the opinion polls show that. Jeremy | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
Corbyn is in touch with his membership not with the wider | :55:43. | :55:45. | |
public, and that includes Labour voters, people who are maybe not | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
active in the party but have voted for the party and now deserting the | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
party. Lets be devils advocate because you are both criticising the | :55:54. | :55:55. | |
Labour Party. The counterargument would be to say that it is good that | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
the Labour Party and Conservative Party are having opened | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
discussions. Look at the SNP. There has been not one member of | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
opposition from the SNP. Nicola Sturgeon was saying only a few days | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
ago she wanted to hear David Cameron's arguments. Are we supposed | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
to believe that spontaneously all 54 SNP MPs and all their members in the | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
Scottish Parliament just agree completely with the opposition? That | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
would be completely unnatural, wouldn't it? We have not heard a | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
murmur of opposition. Yes, but the Labour story is a much more | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
compelling. I'm playing devils advocate, but Labour would say, we | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
cannot disguise the fact we are divided, at least we're having an | :56:45. | :56:46. | |
open debate. Look at that lot, there is no debate all. Labour tried this | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
with the Trident debate at the conference, they said we have open | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
views. But the public do not want parties that are divided. Look at | :57:00. | :57:01. | |
the SNP, they have rigid discipline. People voted for them in | :57:02. | :57:08. | |
their droves. The SNP will have people who are against bombing but | :57:09. | :57:10. | |
they will not speak out because they are strongly with. Fine changes the | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
other issue we have been discussing today. Sara, do you have any hopes | :57:15. | :57:22. | |
that Paris might be more... Copenhagen just was a disaster. We | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
live in that hope, that it might work. The point about Copenhagen, it | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
did not just not achieve things, it contributed towards taking the issue | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
off the agenda for five years. Bill Gates is heading to Paris this week | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
and he's bringing his pocketbook. What the Conservatives have done in | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
taking this money away from the project that they were going to fun | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
for carbon capture has set a very clear message. I think the | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
Conservatives are lining up for a magical solution very sharply down | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
the line to say," we could do fracking instead!" Which is what | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
they would like. Who would much rather have that. Out of the | :58:02. | :58:08. | |
arrogant -- part of the argued it would have is that you have | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
gas-fired power stations therefore it is less important to have carbon | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
capture and storage. Pulling that money is an idiotic move at the same | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
time as saying, would it not be good if we have private investment? There | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
is Bill Gates with his pocketbook ready and open for business in Paris | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
next week, and they have kind of loan at. Alan, you said the public | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
is divided over military action in Syria. What about climate change? Is | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
there a sense promote people that it has just gone away, disappeared as | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
an issue? I think it is an issue. Not as big an issue as politicians | :58:43. | :58:50. | |
like Patrick RB would say it is. In Paris things will be put forward, it | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
will not be legally binding, you cannot force governments to do | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
things. And hundreds of thousands of tonnes of carbon dioxide will be | :59:03. | :59:05. | |
produced from the conference, which seems ludicrous. But going back to | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
carbon capture, it is an easy political decision for the | :59:10. | :59:10. | |
Chancellor to make to cut that. I'll be back | :59:11. | :59:12. | |
at the same time next week. | :59:13. | :59:17. |