06/12/2015 Sunday Politics Scotland


06/12/2015

Jo Coburn and Gordon Brewer present. Jo speaks to security expert Will Geddes on the terrorism threat to the UK.


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Transcript


LineFromTo

Good morning, and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:37.:00:38.

Police say they're treating a multiple stabbing in London

:00:39.:00:41.

As the RAF intensifies its bombing campaign over Syria,

:00:42.:00:46.

is this the latest sign of an evolving threat on British streets?

:00:47.:00:51.

Labour scored a significant win at this week's Oldham by-election,

:00:52.:00:54.

but after a tough week for Jeremy Corbyn,

:00:55.:00:56.

there are more reports of smears, abuse and even talk of a purge.

:00:57.:01:00.

We'll be speaking to a member of the Shadow Cabinet.

:01:01.:01:08.

And it's not just the Labour Party that has its rebels.

:01:09.:01:10.

We'll be talking to the Conservative MP Heidi Allen, who hit

:01:11.:01:13.

the headlines after delivering a bombshell speech against her own

:01:14.:01:15.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:16.:01:20.

With all 54 SNP MPs voting against extending air strikes

:01:21.:01:22.

on Syria, we'll ask Stephen Gethins where that leaves the party now.

:01:23.:01:37.

And joining me for all of that, three journalists who've dutifully

:01:38.:01:40.

battled through the wind and the rain to get here,

:01:41.:01:46.

even without the threat of a telling off from Andrew.

:01:47.:01:48.

It's Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott and Janan Ganesh,

:01:49.:01:50.

and they'll be tweeting throughout the show.

:01:51.:01:51.

that police are treating an attack at a London underground station

:01:52.:01:59.

A man carrying a knife was reported to have screamed,

:02:00.:02:03.

as he injured three men at Leytonstone station

:02:04.:02:06.

making it potentially the first terrorist attack on British soil

:02:07.:02:11.

since the murder of fusilier Lee Rigby in 2013.

:02:12.:02:15.

Mobile phone footage shows police officers

:02:16.:02:16.

wrestling with a man after he had been tasered.

:02:17.:02:19.

He was later arrested and remains in custody.

:02:20.:02:22.

The Metropolitan Police said one man suffered serious knife injuries

:02:23.:02:26.

but was not thought to be in a life-threatening condition,

:02:27.:02:28.

while two other victims received minor injuries.

:02:29.:02:36.

has this morning called the attack an "abomination",

:02:37.:02:38.

and we can speak now to the local MP John Cryer

:02:39.:02:43.

Your response? It is an appalling attack. And it is frightening, very

:02:44.:02:53.

frightening for local people. I've been talking to some of the local

:02:54.:02:56.

businesses this morning and obviously they are all very worried

:02:57.:03:01.

about it now. What the background is, what the motivation is, I do

:03:02.:03:05.

think it would be particularly helpful to speculate at the moment.

:03:06.:03:10.

-- I don't think it would be particularly helpful. So I'd rather

:03:11.:03:14.

not do that. But when something like this happens in your own area, it is

:03:15.:03:19.

not something expect. Leytonstone is a peaceful area, a lot of

:03:20.:03:23.

communities live together extremely peacefully and harmoniously, that's

:03:24.:03:26.

one of the great things about this area. People will be scared and

:03:27.:03:31.

understandably so, as you say, so what is your message to constituents

:03:32.:03:35.

as they wake up to this news? I think the message is that we carry

:03:36.:03:39.

on as normal, that we don't allow this sort of barbaric behaviour to

:03:40.:03:46.

change our lives. And I think that's the important thing. And I think

:03:47.:03:51.

people will continue as well. I'm not saying people will be blase

:03:52.:03:55.

about it, people will be very concerned. But I don't think people

:03:56.:03:59.

will allow this to change the way they live their lives on a

:04:00.:04:02.

day-to-day basis, that's the impression I've had from the people

:04:03.:04:08.

I've been talking to this morning. Now, this has happened just days

:04:09.:04:11.

after parliament voted for air strikes in Syria, people are bound,

:04:12.:04:16.

rightly or wrongly to draw a link between the two, what say you?

:04:17.:04:22.

Welcome I was opposed to the air strikes in Syria, I voted against

:04:23.:04:26.

air strikes in Syria, I think it will prove to be quite a major

:04:27.:04:31.

mistake. I am not convinced that this will be connected to the air

:04:32.:04:36.

strikes in Syria. Well I just don't know at the moment so we can only

:04:37.:04:41.

speculate. But there doesn't seem to be immediately evidence that there

:04:42.:04:45.

is a direct link. But we have to find out what the background is.

:04:46.:04:49.

Police are investigating. I have been in contact with police this

:04:50.:04:53.

morning. At I think it would be dangerous to say this is a direct

:04:54.:04:58.

consequence of air strikes in Syria. And as I say I am a fairly major

:04:59.:05:01.

critic of the government's activities. Thank you.

:05:02.:05:05.

This comes after the so-called Islamic State

:05:06.:05:06.

claimed a husband and wife who massacred 14 people

:05:07.:05:08.

were supporters of the terrorist group.

:05:09.:05:14.

So is this just the latest sign that the West faces a new type of threat?

:05:15.:05:18.

Well, we're joined now by the security expert Will Geddes.

:05:19.:05:22.

At the moment it looks like a lone wolf, no accomplices, no

:05:23.:05:28.

organisation in any major way behind it, is that how you read it? I think

:05:29.:05:33.

pretty much so. It is incredibly difficult to say right now and again

:05:34.:05:37.

it is dangerous to speculate too much until the police have

:05:38.:05:41.

undertaken their investigations to determine how this individual was

:05:42.:05:44.

motivated, under what particular an brother that might have been,

:05:45.:05:48.

whether it was alone, whether it was a self radicalisation process --

:05:49.:05:53.

what particular an umbrella that might have been. We have been

:05:54.:05:59.

expecting an attack because we have had the Paris attacks, we have had

:06:00.:06:04.

the attacks in Southern California, and there had been warnings about

:06:05.:06:08.

it, and the terror threat is still extremely high. So we shouldn't be

:06:09.:06:13.

that surprised. No, I don't think we are. And I think we are accepting

:06:14.:06:16.

the fact that unfortunately we are at a very high risk level intervals

:06:17.:06:21.

of these types of attacks. And this precedes the Syrian bombing

:06:22.:06:25.

agreements in terms of the fact that there were seven significant plots

:06:26.:06:29.

foiled this year. We have always been on the radar, it is just down

:06:30.:06:33.

to the capabilities of the individuals. Sadly, certainly in the

:06:34.:06:37.

wake of this most recent incident, it will be the platform of lone

:06:38.:06:40.

wolves more than anything else. Do you think that is the case? That is

:06:41.:06:44.

the most recent pattern, that might be what continues in, unfortunately,

:06:45.:06:50.

capitals across Europe? I think we have to be pragmatic and accept

:06:51.:06:54.

that. Ultimately we know that the individuals that are planning as

:06:55.:06:58.

cells have a far higher chance of detection. So individuals working on

:06:59.:07:02.

their own, whether it be in a very specific conceptual sort of agenda

:07:03.:07:06.

and motivation or whether it be an individual that is simply aligned to

:07:07.:07:15.

the ideologies of Daesh will add to the spectrum of Brett. Nick Watt,

:07:16.:07:19.

what do you think the little reaction will be? We have had some

:07:20.:07:23.

reaction from Jon Cryer saying stay vigilant but don't be blase. That

:07:24.:07:27.

was an incredibly important contribution you had from John

:07:28.:07:31.

Cryer, he is not just the local MP, E is the chairman of the

:07:32.:07:35.

Parliamentary party. In that capacity Jeremy Corbyn invites him

:07:36.:07:39.

to attend the Shadow Cabinet. He voted against air strikes and he is

:07:40.:07:44.

being held up as how the majority of opinion in the Labour Party is

:07:45.:07:47.

against air strikes. He was absolutely clear saying it would be

:07:48.:07:51.

dangerous to say that this attack in Leytonstone is in any way linked to

:07:52.:07:55.

the vote in parliament. The reason why that is significant is that

:07:56.:07:59.

there will be some people and indeed we are already seeing some people on

:08:00.:08:02.

Twitter saying that this attack in Leytonstone is as a result of that

:08:03.:08:07.

vote. Well, the chairman of the PLP who voted against the air strikes

:08:08.:08:09.

said it would be dangerous to make that conclusion. But people will

:08:10.:08:13.

make those links and they will continue to do so particularly in

:08:14.:08:17.

the light of Michael Fallon saying the bombing campaign is intensifying

:08:18.:08:20.

in Syria and there are likely to be civilian cavities. They may well do

:08:21.:08:25.

so but what strikes me about this attack, is awful and horrible as it

:08:26.:08:30.

is for everybody involved, is that it is a rather pathetic and little

:08:31.:08:34.

attack. Very happily the victim, as we understand it, is not going to

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die as a result of this attack. What strikes me is, were we in America

:08:40.:08:43.

and were the people who are prone to do these things able to get their

:08:44.:08:47.

hands on guns, this would have been a mass casualties could well have

:08:48.:08:51.

been a mass casualties attack. As it was, we're left with somebody just

:08:52.:08:56.

randomly stabbing and not really getting anywhere. Do you think

:08:57.:08:59.

people are ready for how long this campaign is going to go on for, and

:09:00.:09:06.

we are going to live in the shadow indirectly or directly of a

:09:07.:09:09.

terrorist threat? I don't know if people are ready for just Syria or

:09:10.:09:13.

maybe five years worth of security being one of the top three issues in

:09:14.:09:17.

the country. If you look at the issues index, most salient to voters

:09:18.:09:21.

in recent years, it has been the usual economy, NHS, immigration to a

:09:22.:09:26.

certain extent. I wonder whether, by the time of the next election

:09:27.:09:29.

because of this fairly consistent terror threat, security is even

:09:30.:09:34.

number one, two or three. We've got the investigatory Powers Bill going

:09:35.:09:36.

through Parliament at the moment and I think that kind of legislation,

:09:37.:09:40.

the presence of a terror threat, the kind of thing that is on the evening

:09:41.:09:46.

news might overnight over five years will change what we consider to be

:09:47.:09:50.

the most salient issues in British issues -- night after night. There

:09:51.:09:54.

had been reports that one of the Paris attackers had travelled to

:09:55.:09:57.

Britain earlier this year, and the chair of the Home Affairs Select

:09:58.:10:00.

Committee said it is a real worry that people are able to get through

:10:01.:10:04.

our borders without being detected. How worried are you by those

:10:05.:10:08.

reports? I think we are playing a bit of a catch-up game and

:10:09.:10:12.

unfortunately we have to appreciate it many capabilities in tens of the

:10:13.:10:15.

border force a Metropolitan Police and police agencies across the UK.

:10:16.:10:20.

Although there have been positive suggestions by the government in

:10:21.:10:23.

terms of boosting numbers within the security services, for example, you

:10:24.:10:27.

are still looking at approximately 18 months before those 1900 new

:10:28.:10:33.

heads within GCHQ and security services will be operationally able

:10:34.:10:38.

to fulfil their mission. Briefly on the police numbers, also a very

:10:39.:10:41.

controversial issue in terms of the spending review, that didn't happen,

:10:42.:10:45.

the cuts that people feared, the government will be relieved they did

:10:46.:10:50.

not make those cuts? Iain Duncan Smith in condemning these attackers

:10:51.:10:54.

as an abomination made that exact point, saying we kept those police

:10:55.:10:56.

numbers and they will be important in terms of attacking the terrorist

:10:57.:10:58.

threat. Now, the Prime Minister had hoped to

:10:59.:11:00.

sign off his plans for a renegotiation of Britain's EU

:11:01.:11:03.

membership later this month. have decided not give him an early

:11:04.:11:05.

Christmas present, and that means the referendum on

:11:06.:11:09.

whatever deal he does get Last month David Cameron sent a

:11:10.:11:22.

letter to Donald Tusk, president of the European Council setting out the

:11:23.:11:26.

EU reform demands. There were four main areas he once renegotiated.

:11:27.:11:30.

Protection for non-Europe countries and safeguarding their rights.

:11:31.:11:35.

Exemption from an ever closer union. And more powers for national

:11:36.:11:40.

parliaments. Restore competitiveness in the EU which involves cutting red

:11:41.:11:46.

tape and free trade agreements with other economies. And finally, the

:11:47.:11:50.

one causing the most headaches, restricting benefits for EU

:11:51.:11:53.

migrants. Under the Prime Minister's plans, EU migrants would

:11:54.:11:56.

not be able to claim any in work benefits for four years. On Thursday

:11:57.:12:03.

David Cameron abandoned hopes for an early referendum as early as May

:12:04.:12:05.

next year after admitting he would not be able to get the deal he wants

:12:06.:12:10.

at an EU summit in two weeks' time. Donald Tusk will on Monday published

:12:11.:12:14.

an assessment of the British demands in a letter to the 27 other member

:12:15.:12:19.

states. It follows a round of confessionals in which governments

:12:20.:12:23.

have outlined their concerns. He said December's meeting will pave

:12:24.:12:27.

the way for a deal in February. By then David Cameron will be forced to

:12:28.:12:35.

decide whether to campaign for a Brexit or stay in the EU.

:12:36.:12:37.

and committed eurosceptic Iain Duncan Smith

:12:38.:12:40.

has been speaking on The Andrew Marr show this morning,

:12:41.:12:43.

and he said the delay was a sign of strength, not weakness.

:12:44.:12:46.

Well the mood is actually very upbeat. I'm involved in putting

:12:47.:12:53.

together the package that the Prime Minister wants to take to the

:12:54.:12:56.

council. So we've been deep in discussion about that. The Prime

:12:57.:12:59.

Minister has been pretty clear throughout that he wants to take a

:13:00.:13:02.

package that supports the manifesto commitment. In my area for example

:13:03.:13:07.

on welfare it is very clear that he wants to have that commitment,

:13:08.:13:10.

people living here and contributing to the system, and that will be one

:13:11.:13:12.

of the key elements. We did ask for a government minister

:13:13.:13:14.

to talk to us about the prime minister's renegotiation plans

:13:15.:13:18.

but were told none was available. we can speak instead to the

:13:19.:13:20.

Conservative MP Bernard Jenkin, of the eurosceptic Conservatives

:13:21.:13:24.

For Britain group and he joins us

:13:25.:13:26.

from our Westminster studio. Welcome to the programme. Are you as

:13:27.:13:37.

upbeat and optimistic as Iain Duncan Smith? No. Ironic, really, because

:13:38.:13:46.

he and I were elected on the same day in 1992 and we both opposed the

:13:47.:13:50.

Maastricht Treaty. We both spare about the direction of the European

:13:51.:14:00.

Union. -- we both despair. And while he is gamely supporting the Prime

:14:01.:14:03.

Minister's negotiation in its centre is, I think he knows in his heart

:14:04.:14:09.

that this is a very lame renegotiation compared to what the

:14:10.:14:11.

Prime Minister was originally promising. I mean, there are a whole

:14:12.:14:15.

range of things that the Prime Minister wanted, like getting out of

:14:16.:14:23.

all the home affairs and justice revisions of the Lisbon Treaty, like

:14:24.:14:28.

getting a complete opt out of the EU Charter of fundamental rights, which

:14:29.:14:32.

is, for example, gives the power to the European court of justice to

:14:33.:14:38.

decide prisoner voting and not just the European Court of Human Rights,

:14:39.:14:39.

and so it goes on. But, you know, you know Iain Duncan

:14:40.:14:45.

Smith well, he is not known as a raging Europhile, and if he is

:14:46.:14:50.

optimistic and competent, certainly, publicly, the chances of a

:14:51.:14:56.

meaningful deal of a deal with Europe, -- meaningful chance of a

:14:57.:14:59.

deal with Europe, then why cannot you be? He is bound by his duty to

:15:00.:15:05.

the cabinet, but I am free to speak my mind, Iain Duncan Smith focus

:15:06.:15:09.

very narrowly on a very circular way, on his own, on the Prime

:15:10.:15:15.

Minister's own terms of reference. The European Union has changed so

:15:16.:15:19.

Minister's own terms of reference. dramatically over the last 20 or 30

:15:20.:15:25.

years, the question the British people are going to have to face, do

:15:26.:15:27.

they want to carry on with this journey? There is no status quo, is

:15:28.:15:30.

they want to carry on with the journey of integration, because what

:15:31.:15:34.

the prime ministers negotiating about, will not change the course of

:15:35.:15:39.

the European Union or the course of the United Kingdom within the

:15:40.:15:43.

European Union. They are relatively trivial, rather complicated, but

:15:44.:15:46.

relatively trivial negotiating demands. He's going to get the deal

:15:47.:15:52.

by February. Even if he gets the deal by February, it will not change

:15:53.:15:56.

the price of fish, it will not allow the UK Parliament to determine our

:15:57.:15:59.

own laws and it will not restrict the European court of justice,

:16:00.:16:04.

another of the Prime Minister's demands that he has now dropped. It

:16:05.:16:08.

will not restore the opt out of the social chapter, which was gained by

:16:09.:16:15.

John Major in the Maastricht Treaty, it will not achieve any of these

:16:16.:16:20.

things. There was never going to be enough concessions... I am glad you

:16:21.:16:24.

are making the point that this renegotiation was never really going

:16:25.:16:27.

to address the fundamental problems... Or, you were never going

:16:28.:16:36.

to be satisfied! The Prime Minister was making these much tougher

:16:37.:16:39.

demands. He has dropped these demands. I would be supporting the

:16:40.:16:43.

Prime Minister's negotiating position if he had stuck to his

:16:44.:16:47.

demands. Which one in particular, if there was one thing you would like

:16:48.:16:50.

to see him bring back which you could sell to your constituents,

:16:51.:16:55.

what would it be? The fundamental one, restrict the ability of the

:16:56.:16:58.

European Court of Justice to rule on almost anything. Risen a voting, I

:16:59.:17:04.

mentioned, it is now moving to that area. And the whole question of the

:17:05.:17:07.

relationship between those countries that do not want to be in political

:17:08.:17:11.

union, do not want to be involuntary union, do not want to be in the

:17:12.:17:17.

fiscal union treaty which has been redesigned by the call Eurozone

:17:18.:17:20.

states. -- prisoner voting. What we have got to face, this is not a

:17:21.:17:26.

status quo we are voting to stay in, it is a continuing development of

:17:27.:17:29.

European Union integration, if you want to have choices, you must vote

:17:30.:17:35.

Leave. It has been reported that the campaign will campaign for Brexit.

:17:36.:17:39.

LAUGHTER Would you welcome him leading the

:17:40.:17:44.

campaign from the out? You have laughed... We would welcome him

:17:45.:17:51.

joining the vote to leave campaign, but I don't think it is very likely,

:17:52.:17:58.

at the moment he is convincing people he's being really tough but

:17:59.:18:02.

we know that this is what happens in all EU negotiations, the government

:18:03.:18:06.

pretends to be tough, pretends to be a showdown, and in the end, hey

:18:07.:18:11.

presto, rabbit out of the hat, everything is marvellous. Game set

:18:12.:18:14.

and match for the British. Is there any thing, do you think, that Iain

:18:15.:18:19.

Duncan Smith will be able to sell once this renegotiation is done and

:18:20.:18:25.

dusted? Sell to the backbench... ? I doubt it, I think... As Bernard has

:18:26.:18:31.

suggested, in January, 2013, when David Cameron talked about

:18:32.:18:34.

renegotiation, he meant something sweeping, even in addition to the

:18:35.:18:37.

thing is Bernard has mentioned, even including flirting with the idea of

:18:38.:18:41.

some deep reform to European free movement, that was what was being

:18:42.:18:45.

suggested two years ago. There is not going to be anything approaching

:18:46.:18:48.

any of that in any deal that urges early next year. As it stands a

:18:49.:18:52.

number of backbenchers will find that hard to support. Tactic from

:18:53.:18:58.

Downing Street, to leak the idea that David Cameron might conceivably

:18:59.:19:02.

support the leave campaign, slightly misjudged, so transparent the

:19:03.:19:04.

obvious that he will not. If anything, it was a message sent to

:19:05.:19:11.

other European capitals, " if I don't do that smack if you do not do

:19:12.:19:18.

this deal, I may join the sceptics. -- if you do not do this deal". I

:19:19.:19:26.

agree with Jan, nobody will take seriously the idea that he will

:19:27.:19:28.

campaign for out because fundamentally that is not what he

:19:29.:19:31.

believes, he wants to stay in and has said seven the beginning.

:19:32.:19:35.

Bernard is right, there is a feeling that the renegotiation will only

:19:36.:19:40.

achieve something rather cosmetic. -- and has said so since the

:19:41.:19:45.

beginning. David Cameron may pull a rabbit out of a hat and pretend that

:19:46.:19:48.

he has got a concession but people will not be convinced. I leave it to

:19:49.:19:53.

Nick to stick up for the Prime Minister in this particular

:19:54.:19:55.

instance, what would the rabbit in the hat, the rabbit coming out of

:19:56.:19:59.

the hat, be, for David Cameron, once this deal is done and dusted. It

:20:00.:20:05.

will be examined as rabbit, because we will know about it! He cannot go

:20:06.:20:10.

beyond what he wrote in the letter to Donald Tusk, the rabbit that he

:20:11.:20:14.

takes out of a hat which says, isn't this amazing, isn't opt out from the

:20:15.:20:19.

historic commitment to ever closer union, he will say it is

:20:20.:20:22.

significant... He will say it has an impact on the European Court of

:20:23.:20:26.

judgment rulings, but the point is, first, we know that is what he wants

:20:27.:20:31.

to achieve, and also, people like Bernard, and we can see he is

:20:32.:20:35.

nodding (!), he will say this is just a cosmetic change, it is not

:20:36.:20:39.

going to change the fundamental privacy of EU law over EU law. --

:20:40.:20:46.

fundamental primacy of EU law over UK law. If there were a concession

:20:47.:20:49.

fundamental primacy of EU law over on in work benefits, many people

:20:50.:20:52.

feel that is impossible, bearing in mind the laws, would that satisfy

:20:53.:20:58.

you? It would not, in the end, the European Court of Justice will

:20:59.:21:01.

always have the power to overturn Teva has been agreed, the problem

:21:02.:21:06.

the Prime Minister has got, he started at the beginning with

:21:07.:21:08.

grappling with quite some big things, but refusing to argue with

:21:09.:21:14.

the overall architecture of the European Union. -- grappling with

:21:15.:21:18.

some quite big things. If you do not change the architecture, nothing

:21:19.:21:21.

will really change, except that the European Union will carry on

:21:22.:21:25.

morphing into a state and we will be part of that, whether we are in out

:21:26.:21:29.

of the Euro, ever closer treaty in the treaty -- ever closer union in

:21:30.:21:34.

the treaty, not in the treaty, whatever. Thank you very much for

:21:35.:21:36.

joining us. The real substance being debated

:21:37.:21:40.

by MPs in the Commons on Wednesday may have been whether to extend air

:21:41.:21:45.

strikes into Syria but it was the conflict inside

:21:46.:21:47.

Jeremy Corbyn's party that ended up

:21:48.:21:49.

grabbing just as many headlines. Even when the party finally arrived

:21:50.:21:51.

at a position, it couldn't heal the rift between

:21:52.:21:54.

the leader and some of his MPs. The party received

:21:55.:21:58.

a much-needed boost with a comfortable majority

:21:59.:22:00.

in Thursday's by-election. So when it comes to Jeremy Corbyn's

:22:01.:22:03.

Labour, just what do the voters

:22:04.:22:05.

make of it all? Labour won the old by-election and

:22:06.:22:17.

comfortable, there are majority was reduced but they increased their

:22:18.:22:20.

share of the vote, Jeremy Corbyn says it shows that Labour is

:22:21.:22:25.

electoral. We, with the help of the pollen company populace, have

:22:26.:22:27.

gathered together a group of people that once voted Labour but did not

:22:28.:22:31.

at the last election. We are going to hear of what they think of the

:22:32.:22:36.

new Labour Party and behind this screen, we have two seasoned Labour

:22:37.:22:40.

advisers to pass comment on what they hear. Vets get started. --

:22:41.:22:46.

polling company Populous. -- let's get started. All of the former

:22:47.:22:50.

Labour voters are from London, and at the general election they spread

:22:51.:22:54.

their approach to Ukip, the greens, conservatives and Lib Dem, all of

:22:55.:22:58.

them felt Labour lost their vote over the economy, Ed Miliband and

:22:59.:23:01.

being out of touch. What do they make of Labour today? -- Greens.

:23:02.:23:07.

They are moving in the right direction, with a charismatic

:23:08.:23:10.

leader, whose policies seem to be standing up for the average man. I

:23:11.:23:22.

disagree, no disrespect, for me, I am quite a middle ground person,

:23:23.:23:27.

going from the left to the right, they have gone far too left for me.

:23:28.:23:34.

For me they are unelectable. He is very principled, I respect him for

:23:35.:23:38.

that but I do not agree with his policies, particularly defence.

:23:39.:23:44.

Initial impressions? Did people know who he was before he became the

:23:45.:23:49.

Labour leader? I had not. Had you heard of him? I had heard of him...

:23:50.:23:56.

He seems principled, compassionate... He has used a term,

:23:57.:24:01.

the new politics... Have you heard that? Yes... Do you know what he

:24:02.:24:10.

means? Not specifically, I presume he means a different attitude

:24:11.:24:14.

towards leading the party and the way they make decisions perhaps.

:24:15.:24:21.

It goes back to the same problem, if you have a vague catchphrase and no

:24:22.:24:29.

substance behind it... Maybe I am not seeing the strong leadership --

:24:30.:24:34.

leadership capability, I understand he's principled, but as a leader of

:24:35.:24:37.

the country, I am not convinced. Does that sound like a good way of

:24:38.:24:41.

changing things, giving them more freedom in the way that they vote?

:24:42.:24:46.

It brings a more human feel, does not feel like everyone is a robot,

:24:47.:24:50.

all of us in this room, we could all be voting for Labour but we would

:24:51.:24:53.

all have different opinions on things. That is... That is a human,

:24:54.:25:00.

you know, that is human nature. I think the fact that is being

:25:01.:25:04.

respected, that is good. But, keeping it in line, how he's going

:25:05.:25:08.

to manage that, that may be a problem. That woman has some up the

:25:09.:25:15.

nub of the problem! That is pretty much their position right now. This

:25:16.:25:24.

is a video clip... I'm not happy with the shoot to kill policy in

:25:25.:25:29.

general, I think that is quite dangerous. That is woolly. You

:25:30.:25:40.

cannot go from principled to Willy and evasive, that is a problem. --

:25:41.:25:47.

woolly and evasive. You need crystal clear clarity on security issues.

:25:48.:25:54.

You need to give somebody a bit of time, let them lace up their running

:25:55.:25:59.

shoes (!), they find their own pace, and they get a little bit of time.

:26:00.:26:03.

It is early days, he has just started in the job. In time, he will

:26:04.:26:09.

show, you know, a lot of strength will stop courage, I think. Why not

:26:10.:26:19.

vote Labour this time? -- a lot of strength and courage. Labour was

:26:20.:26:22.

giving benefits left right and centre, if somebody needs them,

:26:23.:26:26.

fine, but they were in so much debt, the country was getting further and

:26:27.:26:31.

further into debt. There was no end to it. Do you know the if Jeremy

:26:32.:26:37.

Corbyn and John Madonna's government would spend more money, would they

:26:38.:26:44.

put up taxes? -- do you know if they Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell

:26:45.:26:50.

government. I bet there is not a single specific about how it is

:26:51.:26:55.

different. Despite the debate about austerity. They have not mentioned

:26:56.:27:00.

that word once. The fact Labour have not articulated anything... They

:27:01.:27:07.

have asked a leading question, so not to give that response, that

:27:08.:27:11.

suggest, well,... We will not make up our minds... We do not know...

:27:12.:27:18.

These people are not the British electorate, nor can they alone give

:27:19.:27:22.

Labour a victory, but there will be plenty to note, as lost Labour

:27:23.:27:27.

voters, they seem prepared to give Labour and Jeremy Corbyn time to bed

:27:28.:27:29.

in. STUDIO: And I'm joined in the studio

:27:30.:27:35.

now by the Shadow Work and Pensions

:27:36.:27:37.

secretary, Owen Smith. We have had plenty of evidence from

:27:38.:27:41.

the pollsters, you saw and heard some of it, at the last election

:27:42.:27:46.

Labour was not trusted on the economy, particularly when it came

:27:47.:27:49.

to managing the welfare bill, do you think you are on the way to learning

:27:50.:27:53.

that trust? If you take the evidence of the poll that matters, the poll

:27:54.:27:58.

with the people, looking at Oldham, then perhaps we are winning back

:27:59.:28:03.

trust. There is no doubt we did not have it at the last election, that

:28:04.:28:07.

is why Labour lost and lost badly, but we did win a victory on Thursday

:28:08.:28:14.

in Oldham, up 10%, the Tories were down 10%. Perhaps we are in the

:28:15.:28:17.

foothills of starting to win back trust. I recognise and Jeremy Ross

:28:18.:28:22.

recognises we have a long way to go, almost five years until the next

:28:23.:28:27.

election and we will have to put in place policies and ideas to win back

:28:28.:28:32.

trust fully. -- Jeremy recognises. It was a Labour victory but that is

:28:33.:28:36.

a Labour heartland, you should not be surprised that you did well

:28:37.:28:41.

somewhere like Oldham, that is despite the policies of the national

:28:42.:28:44.

party, you could say, it you could say it is because of a strong Labour

:28:45.:28:48.

parliament, that is not a Nuneaton which you need to win back. But in

:28:49.:28:53.

the media we were talking about lots of suggestions that Labour was going

:28:54.:28:57.

to lose that seat, or if we win, we would win only by 1000. Labour MPs

:28:58.:29:03.

themselves were saying that! That is my point. But the pollsters were

:29:04.:29:07.

certainly saying in their view, we were likely to struggle. For us to

:29:08.:29:12.

hold it as well as we did, increase the share of the vote from last time

:29:13.:29:17.

around, 11,000 majority, you cannot say anything other than it was a

:29:18.:29:18.

good victory for Labour. I think it say anything other than it was a

:29:19.:29:24.

has to be a vindication both of Jim McMahon, the excellent candidate,

:29:25.:29:28.

now the MP for old, a good local guy who has been a council leader, very

:29:29.:29:33.

well respected. -- Oldham. The kind of community-based politicians that

:29:34.:29:39.

we produce in labour. -- community rooted politicians. But also a

:29:40.:29:43.

vindication of Jeremy Corbyn and the rebuilding of trust. Nobody in

:29:44.:29:46.

Oldham can be in any doubts as to who is the leader of the Labour

:29:47.:29:48.

Party right now! Let's talk about welfare, we heard

:29:49.:29:58.

the lady saying Labour was giving benefits left, right and centre and

:29:59.:30:01.

leaving the country in so much debt, how do you address that? Well, I

:30:02.:30:05.

think we've got to start by doing what we did not do well enough under

:30:06.:30:08.

the last parliament which is call out the line from the Tory party

:30:09.:30:14.

that the dead this country were in and are still in, let's not forget

:30:15.:30:18.

the Tories have practically doubled debt. Let's talk about welfare

:30:19.:30:23.

specifically. Happy to. The Labour Party under Harriet Harman clearly

:30:24.:30:26.

felt it should move closer to the Conservatives on welfare and not

:30:27.:30:32.

further away, the party did not vote against their bill introducing ?12

:30:33.:30:35.

billion of saving and Harriet Harman said she was sympathetic to lowering

:30:36.:30:40.

the benefits cap. You did not vote against the limit on child tax

:30:41.:30:46.

credits for two children. In that vote we definitely were wrong and

:30:47.:30:51.

that's why Labour has now voted against the welfare bill, and the

:30:52.:30:55.

reason for that is the reason many people in this country, I

:30:56.:31:34.

And a Labour Party to be abstaining on whether we make people, working

:31:35.:31:41.

people put in this country. People want the Labour Party to stand up.

:31:42.:31:46.

What is your evidence for seeing that people want you to do that.

:31:47.:31:52.

Harriet Harman announced that did not oppose limiting tax credits to

:31:53.:31:56.

two children because we cannot say to the public that you were wrong at

:31:57.:32:00.

the election. Who is representing the people? Wii .2 Heidi Allen, who

:32:01.:32:06.

you have on the programme later on, or any of the other 30 or so Tory

:32:07.:32:12.

MPs boosted up against their own Prime Minister a few weeks ago,

:32:13.:32:15.

saying they had got it wrong on tax credits. Let's have a look... The

:32:16.:32:21.

Tories described that as welfare spending. That was part of their ?12

:32:22.:32:26.

million election spending. It is legitimate for me to speak about

:32:27.:32:32.

that. You said people want us to do this. I'm trying to get the evidence

:32:33.:32:38.

for that. Yes, on tax credits, but more broadly on Labour's perception

:32:39.:32:44.

of people of labour with welfare. We have seen leaks from opinion polling

:32:45.:32:49.

in which people said that Labour was in thrall to the undeserving. It

:32:50.:32:53.

needs to be for middle-class voters, not just down and outs, and the

:32:54.:32:58.

Labour win would have been good for people on benefits and immigrants,

:32:59.:33:02.

anyone claiming money. How will you win an election is people only see

:33:03.:33:07.

you is representing those groups? We have got to win an election because

:33:08.:33:11.

those groups and low and middle income earners in Britain, the very

:33:12.:33:16.

people being hit by tax credit cards and now the universal credit cards

:33:17.:33:19.

coming on stream next year, they need a Labour government in order to

:33:20.:33:24.

introduce fairness. They also want to know that we are in favour of

:33:25.:33:29.

reform. There is no doubt about that. We lose the evidence? This is

:33:30.:33:34.

your own focus groups and opinion polling. It is not in line with what

:33:35.:33:39.

the public want or the way that they view you. That is what I have said.

:33:40.:33:45.

In addition to supporting in work benefits for people in low and

:33:46.:33:49.

middle income jobs like tax credits and universal credit, we need to be

:33:50.:33:53.

making an argument for a reform of the wider system. Do you accept your

:33:54.:33:59.

not doing that? We are starting to do that. In the New Year I will be

:34:00.:34:03.

announcing a big commissioned by the Labour Party to look at Social

:34:04.:34:08.

Security, to present a Labour alternative for a reform Social

:34:09.:34:14.

Security system. For generations people have increasingly become

:34:15.:34:17.

mistrustful of the Social Security system. They think it is unfair and

:34:18.:34:22.

inefficient, under Labour and Tory. We need to win back the trust of

:34:23.:34:27.

people in it we cause it should be a massive positive for the country

:34:28.:34:31.

that we have a generous welfare state. Which policy decisions so far

:34:32.:34:36.

are going to back up that idea of reform rather than people's idea

:34:37.:34:41.

that only four people on benefits if you're trying to broaden your

:34:42.:34:45.

appeal? You have talked about tax credits but if you want to lower the

:34:46.:34:50.

benefit cap, if you do not want to limit tax credits, which policy

:34:51.:34:54.

areas back up what you have said about reform? We have said clearly

:34:55.:35:00.

that we support the government in capping the overall spending on

:35:01.:35:04.

social security, so they have introduced the cab. And the benefit

:35:05.:35:09.

cap? The benefit cap, interestingly, we have reserved judgment on that.

:35:10.:35:15.

Only two weeks ago... That was not your view? Let me finish, please. We

:35:16.:35:21.

had an opinion from a judge in London that the benefit cap was

:35:22.:35:24.

discriminating against disabled people. There is further evidence

:35:25.:35:29.

that it is is not doing what the government set out to do. It is not

:35:30.:35:34.

saving money. Local councils are having to spend money on

:35:35.:35:38.

discretionary housing payments to support people who been made

:35:39.:35:42.

homeless as a result of it. Only around 4% of people seem to be

:35:43.:35:48.

getting any benefit. What is this benefit cap for? We need to have a

:35:49.:35:52.

limit on the amount of money that people can have individually. And as

:35:53.:35:58.

households. It has to reflect need. That is important. It sounded like

:35:59.:36:04.

you wanted to drop the idea of the benefit cap in principle. You still

:36:05.:36:10.

support the idea of the benefit cap at ?26,000 a year? We do not. You

:36:11.:36:15.

did supported at the election. At the election, we did and since then,

:36:16.:36:21.

we have changed our view. Cutting it to ?23,000, from ?26,000, which is

:36:22.:36:28.

what was included in the Welfare Bill, it is very complicated, that

:36:29.:36:31.

would mean it would affect millions of people across Britain. What

:36:32.:36:38.

should be cap be? We need to get back to principle that people use to

:36:39.:36:43.

understand, the connection between the sort of support you might

:36:44.:36:46.

receive from the state, the amount of money you contribute, getting

:36:47.:36:50.

back to connection between contribution and reward. Also, it

:36:51.:36:56.

needs. If you have got three children are you fall pregnant in a

:36:57.:37:00.

period when you lose your job, you do not get penalised for having that

:37:01.:37:06.

third child. It seems extraordinary that the government is penalising

:37:07.:37:09.

people. You're not supporting the cap, you cannot give me a figure?

:37:10.:37:14.

You are now reviewing the whole policy. You agree with Jeremy

:37:15.:37:19.

Corbyn, it resulted in social cleansing? We said shortly after the

:37:20.:37:23.

election we would oppose the reduction. That is not true. When I

:37:24.:37:28.

spoke to your last, you said you were going to stick to the principle

:37:29.:37:33.

of a benefit cap? I did not. You did. You said in September you

:37:34.:37:37.

wanted to have the benefit cap in principle, you did not agree to

:37:38.:37:42.

lowering it to 23000 and Jeremy Corbyn was against it. I said that

:37:43.:37:51.

we were reviewing the concept of the benefit cap across the board. What

:37:52.:37:55.

that we do except there have to be limits on the amount of money that

:37:56.:37:59.

an individual household can get in benefits. We need to get to a point

:38:00.:38:06.

where we have a much fairer set of criteria to analyse and understand

:38:07.:38:10.

why we should be giving family eggs and not the other family. That

:38:11.:38:15.

should reflect the number of children they have got, the nature

:38:16.:38:19.

of work they are in, the relative security of that family, fundamental

:38:20.:38:24.

principles we have at your two. Most viewers will not understand a

:38:25.:38:28.

government that says that they will penalised children and take money

:38:29.:38:32.

away from them on the basis of how many children you have. You did at

:38:33.:38:36.

stain on that issue earlier. But you have changed your mind. In terms of

:38:37.:38:41.

Shadow Cabinet colleagues, should your colleagues worry about being

:38:42.:38:46.

sacked? I do not think they should be. I am not in charge of

:38:47.:38:51.

reshuffles. That is a job for Jeremy. This is newspaper tittle

:38:52.:38:55.

tattle. From what I have seen of the way that Jeremy has handled this in

:38:56.:39:00.

Shadow Cabinet, he has been keen to stress that we have to be respectful

:39:01.:39:04.

of the different views. I voted against, others voted in favour. Any

:39:05.:39:10.

abuse that anyone has been subject to as a result of decisions taken in

:39:11.:39:15.

good faith is disgraceful. We should not settle for it or allow it in the

:39:16.:39:26.

Labour Party. Thank you very much. It has just gone 11:40am.

:39:27.:39:30.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland, who leave us now

:39:31.:39:33.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:34.:39:36.

MPs vote overwhelmingly to extend air strikes into Syria, but the SNP

:39:37.:39:42.

So where does it leave the party now?

:39:43.:39:47.

We'll put that to SNP MP Stephen Gethins.

:39:48.:39:51.

Nicola Sturgeon will represent Scotland at the climate change talks

:39:52.:39:56.

in Paris, but critics say the government's record

:39:57.:39:57.

The First Minister tells the international community she has the

:39:58.:40:06.

most ambitious targets in the world but will she remember to tell them

:40:07.:40:09.

that she has not hit those targets once?

:40:10.:40:10.

And it's 25 years since Margaret Thatcher stood down

:40:11.:40:12.

SNP MPs took to Twitter and other social media swiftly

:40:13.:40:25.

after Wednesday's Commons vote to extend air strikes to Syria,

:40:26.:40:28.

to disassociate themselves from the decision.

:40:29.:40:33.

All 54 Nationalist MPs voted against the motion with the First Minister

:40:34.:40:36.

saying beforehand that giving them a free vote on the issue was

:40:37.:40:38.

unnecessary as "everybody" in the party's parliamentary group agreed

:40:39.:40:41.

that the case for air strikes had not been made. But with the

:40:42.:40:44.

government at Westminster securing a significant majority for action,

:40:45.:40:46.

Does it show a genuine fault line north and south of the border?

:40:47.:40:52.

Well, joining us from London is SNP MP Stephen Gethins, who sits on the

:40:53.:40:55.

Good morning. There seem to be some suggestions that the fact the SNP

:40:56.:41:11.

did not vote for this meant it was somehow illegitimate in Scotland.

:41:12.:41:14.

Can you explain what your party members were trying to say? 57 out

:41:15.:41:20.

of 59 Scottish MPs, remember that the sole Labour MPs voted against

:41:21.:41:25.

this as well. We are saying that a great chunk of ours voted against

:41:26.:41:30.

bombing action in Syria because it was not the right thing to do. It is

:41:31.:41:36.

a slightly odd argument to make. The reason there are so many SNP MPs for

:41:37.:41:41.

a start is because of the first past the post system that you profess to

:41:42.:41:45.

profoundly disagree with. We still do. It might benefit us now but we

:41:46.:41:51.

still disagree with that. To say that somehow or other this is

:41:52.:41:54.

illegitimate for Westminster to vote under behalf of Scotland on this

:41:55.:41:59.

issue, because you have so many MPs because of the system that you have

:42:00.:42:04.

accepted as a legitimate, that is a very peculiar writer meant. The

:42:05.:42:08.

Westminster Parliament has responsibility over foreign affairs.

:42:09.:42:13.

I'm in favour of independence. The Westminster Parliament has voted for

:42:14.:42:16.

military action. I do not think it is the right decision and as part of

:42:17.:42:20.

the Foreign Affairs Committee I have been arguing about this for months

:42:21.:42:24.

and looking at the facts. Now we are in this situation, we need to get

:42:25.:42:32.

behind our service personnel who are involved in that. Again, have you

:42:33.:42:35.

any evidence that opinion, opinion is clearly divided on this issue

:42:36.:42:38.

throughout Britain, is there any evidence that Scotland is

:42:39.:42:42.

different? I think people have different views on this. I said in

:42:43.:42:47.

the chamber this week, unlike David Cameron I respect people on both

:42:48.:42:52.

sides. People voted for air strike is who did so for very legitimate

:42:53.:42:57.

reasons. I disagree with them. My mailbox is full of people who

:42:58.:43:01.

disagree with this as well based on the fact that we have. The only

:43:02.:43:05.

opinion poll that was not an Internet opinion poll was done by

:43:06.:43:12.

YouGov. It was 50-50. 44% of people in Scotland were in favour of air

:43:13.:43:20.

strikes, 41% were against. You get different opinion polls but I have

:43:21.:43:27.

had something like 100-1, 100-1 in terms of responses in my mailbox

:43:28.:43:31.

from people who disagree what we are doing. We look at the military

:43:32.:43:37.

impact and diplomatic initiatives, we looked at the legality and found

:43:38.:43:42.

the case had not been made. This was a fact -based argument. Over the

:43:43.:43:47.

last couple of weeks, the city of Sinjar has been retaken by Kurdish

:43:48.:43:53.

forces from IS. It is widely accepted, including by the Kurdish

:43:54.:43:57.

forces themselves, they could not have done that without the support

:43:58.:44:04.

of American air power. Why was it wrong for American air power to

:44:05.:44:11.

help? Sinjar was one of the towns populated by UCD is, who faced the

:44:12.:44:16.

prospect of mass execution. Nobody said it was wrong. We said there was

:44:17.:44:22.

a need for long-term strategy. You voted against the use of air power

:44:23.:44:28.

in Iraq. This goes to the heart of the issue. There are no ground

:44:29.:44:32.

troops at the moment. There are no ground troops to take Raqqa. A few

:44:33.:44:38.

months ago, you voted against using the RAF in Iraq. I said there should

:44:39.:44:46.

be a long-term strategy. You voted against using air power in Iraq. We

:44:47.:44:51.

voted against because there was no long-term strategy. Why was it wrong

:44:52.:44:56.

for air power to be used to liberate Sinjar? There needs to be a

:44:57.:45:00.

long-term strategy and ground troops. There are no ground troops

:45:01.:45:06.

in Syria. If I were living in Sinjar, and I heard what you had

:45:07.:45:10.

said, I would but be impressed. I might well be saying, I am extremely

:45:11.:45:14.

glad that the cards have taken over Sinjar.

:45:15.:45:20.

Because you have Kurdish round true. The party previously noted

:45:21.:45:31.

against grand strategy. -- Kurdish true is. You have no exit strategy

:45:32.:45:43.

but you have got ground troops. Last week in Parliament beware debating

:45:44.:45:48.

about the fact we had no round troops. I'll hope I am wrong and

:45:49.:45:53.

that just air strikes work in putting an end to Daesh but I do not

:45:54.:45:58.

think that will be the case. Other experts do not think that will be

:45:59.:46:04.

the case either. Argue against the United States and France bombing in

:46:05.:46:12.

Syria? I think without a long-term plan, you need some kind of

:46:13.:46:17.

long-term plan here. We quite deliberately narrowly looked at the

:46:18.:46:21.

UK cause that is the Avia we are looking at what the needs to be a

:46:22.:46:25.

long-term plan. With the United States and France and other places

:46:26.:46:32.

you need a long-term plan because I struggle to see the difference air

:46:33.:46:38.

strikes will make. You are looking to liberate Sinjar because you were

:46:39.:46:43.

worried about British troops being used the. We have form about taking

:46:44.:46:49.

military action which was a disaster in Libya, in Iraq and did not work

:46:50.:46:57.

well in Afghanistan either. You voted for bombing Libya. That did

:46:58.:47:04.

not pan out too well because of the long-term effects. This is something

:47:05.:47:11.

the MoD have to answer questions on. We spent ?25 million on

:47:12.:47:15.

reconstruction in Libya. For every ?30 we spent bombing he spent ?1 on

:47:16.:47:21.

reconstruction and for me those numbers should have been the wrong

:47:22.:47:27.

way round. It could have been a humanitarian situation on the

:47:28.:47:31.

ground. What we probably should have done was interrogate further. That

:47:32.:47:36.

is over what the long-term plans where. This is a mistake the MoD

:47:37.:47:42.

have made time after time from Iraq on words. It is a field you to have

:47:43.:47:48.

a long-term plan in strategy. When you talk about the context of

:47:49.:47:51.

extending the bombing plane into Syria, what is the construction of?

:47:52.:48:00.

This is why diplomats and is so important. And the Siena process.

:48:01.:48:06.

You need some kind of agreement between BBN process partners. --

:48:07.:48:15.

Vienna process. Everyone wants to see an end to Daesh but bombing is

:48:16.:48:20.

not the way to do it. Either the spread of poisonous propaganda. When

:48:21.:48:25.

you are talking about reconstruction... Reconstruction has

:48:26.:48:32.

become and you have to have a long-term plan. I am talking about

:48:33.:48:39.

the commitment of 20 two 30 years. You talk about reconstruction of the

:48:40.:48:44.

Syrian state is that it is around. We were gradually talking about

:48:45.:48:49.

Libya a moment ago. You cannot create a vacuum. No one is

:48:50.:48:55.

suggesting using military action against a sad and the Syrian state.

:48:56.:49:03.

The wearer two years ago. We have changed their minds now. Daesh

:49:04.:49:11.

President Assad. The lack of being for reconstruction for something

:49:12.:49:17.

nobody is proposing to bomb is a reason for attacking, that seems

:49:18.:49:22.

wrong. You need a long-term plan and commitment. That has to be the

:49:23.:49:28.

lesson. If we have learned anything from the disaster in Iraq it has to

:49:29.:49:32.

be that you need to win the peace as well as having won the military

:49:33.:49:36.

conflict. You need to start planning that from the moment you enter into

:49:37.:49:42.

the military conflict. We need to end the year, thank you for joining

:49:43.:49:44.

us. 25 years ago, Margaret Thatcher

:49:45.:49:46.

was beginning a new career. After 11 years at Number 10,

:49:47.:49:49.

her behaviour and her policies were concerning colleagues, as they

:49:50.:49:51.

feared for the Conservatives' As she complained about "

:49:52.:49:53.

treachery with a smile on its face", But she was safe

:49:54.:49:57.

in the knowledge that she'd made her A quarter of a century on,

:49:58.:50:01.

our political correspondent, And steal food to differing now in

:50:02.:50:18.

Ravenscraig. Now the busy ?52 million sports centre. It is a

:50:19.:50:23.

world-class centre we have put on the site of Ravenscraig and we have

:50:24.:50:30.

a wide scope of events taking place, local, Scottish, European. It has

:50:31.:50:36.

had a fantastic response. Heavy industry declined and collapsed in

:50:37.:50:44.

the 1970s, it 80s and Ravenscraig chat in the 1990s. Arguments still

:50:45.:50:49.

rage about who is to blame for the failures. A generation of critics

:50:50.:50:55.

blame one person. We are leaving Downing Street for the first time

:50:56.:51:04.

after 11 and a half wonderful years. Wonderful for some but not others.

:51:05.:51:09.

Many in Scotland made their voices heard particularly over the

:51:10.:51:13.

introduction of the poll tax. A symbol that she feel to get

:51:14.:51:20.

Scotland. For Scotland industrial devastation, social disaster and

:51:21.:51:22.

politically she paved the way for a devastation, social disaster and

:51:23.:51:27.

new kind of Scotland. At the end of the day that might be a big plus but

:51:28.:51:34.

it has been a very, very heavy price Scotland as paid. The big plus the

:51:35.:51:41.

say is this please. The Scottish Parliament. There is a view that she

:51:42.:51:51.

left another political legacy, too. Scotland are still seen as second

:51:52.:51:54.

best which I think is to do with Mrs Thatcher. I suspect that for a long

:51:55.:52:01.

time to come the those naughty lot the Tories can do about it. The

:52:02.:52:06.

Conservatives who have been in the party for quite some time argue Mrs

:52:07.:52:11.

Thatcher had a hard job and she did it well. It was the time of great

:52:12.:52:17.

economic and social change which was painful for people but in the 1970s

:52:18.:52:23.

the economy was backward and outdated and needed modernised. At

:52:24.:52:27.

the end of Margaret Hatcher was my DD den offers we had the much more

:52:28.:52:31.

diverse party with opportunities articulate for young people. I will

:52:32.:52:40.

hand out where as a little broken. Our right to buy policy was hugely

:52:41.:52:44.

popular, an instrument of social change. Some say it would be fair to

:52:45.:52:50.

reassess our legacy and combat the mess. Ravenscraig she did not shut,

:52:51.:52:58.

it shot up after she had moved on. Now wanted have kept it open. It was

:52:59.:53:03.

not making steel competitively. The mythology of fracture lives on and

:53:04.:53:09.

people continue to hate her but frankly they should be grateful for

:53:10.:53:15.

Margaret Thatcher. It depends on your point of view but one thing has

:53:16.:53:19.

not changed, when to five years on we are still talking about Margaret

:53:20.:53:20.

Thatcher. The First Minister, Nicola Sturgeon,

:53:21.:53:24.

will be in Paris tomorrow, to attend this year's UN climate change

:53:25.:53:27.

conference as it enters its crucial, Governments from around the world

:53:28.:53:29.

are attempting to thrash out a deal Meanwhile, at home,

:53:30.:53:33.

the Scottish government has faced renewed criticism over

:53:34.:53:36.

its failure to achieve its own On Thursday,

:53:37.:53:39.

Labour leader Kezia Dugdale used First Minister's Questions to attack

:53:40.:53:41.

the government's record. She is going to Paris to show our

:53:42.:53:57.

world leading targets set the benchmark the world community needs

:53:58.:54:01.

to match. This parliament unanimously set those targets in

:54:02.:54:06.

2009 so when the First Minister tell the international community she had

:54:07.:54:10.

the most ambitious targets in the world will she remember to tell them

:54:11.:54:17.

she has not let those targets once. I would encourage Kezia Dugdale to

:54:18.:54:21.

study in some detail of the facts and information around this. In

:54:22.:54:25.

particular I would encourage her, I hope she can continue to come

:54:26.:54:31.

together, as one on this global issue, that when we set a target for

:54:32.:54:38.

2013 in 2010, the reduction in carbon that we anticipated at that

:54:39.:54:46.

time was 31.7%, that was the target we anticipated we would have do

:54:47.:54:49.

reduce emissions by. What we have achieved is 30.4% from the 1990

:54:50.:54:58.

baseline. The only reason why that means we still have not met the

:54:59.:55:03.

target is because of the increases to that baseline. Fixed annual

:55:04.:55:06.

targets were mess because of improvements to the way the data was

:55:07.:55:12.

calculated which added megatons to the 1990 baseline.

:55:13.:55:16.

Let's cross to the French capital now, and join BBC Scotland's

:55:17.:55:19.

environment correspondent, David Miller, who'll be covering

:55:20.:55:20.

First on these talks more generally, Copenhagen was a complete

:55:21.:55:31.

wash-out, is there any reason to suspect this will be more positive?

:55:32.:55:37.

That is putting it mildly in terms of Copenhagen. All the signs that

:55:38.:55:42.

this speech, the midway point at this weeks summit are indicating

:55:43.:55:46.

real progress has been made. We are right a very different ways to that

:55:47.:55:52.

which raised us back in Copenhagen in 2009. Vince the world leaders

:55:53.:55:57.

departed Paris at the start of the week when they came in to get this

:55:58.:56:03.

conference on the road, delegates from 195 countries have been working

:56:04.:56:08.

steadfastly to come up with a draft text to present to ministers when

:56:09.:56:12.

they arrive here tomorrow. That work is completed in the words of the

:56:13.:56:17.

French climate ambassador, nothing has been decided and nothing will be

:56:18.:56:23.

left behind. She said this text marks the well of all to reach an

:56:24.:56:31.

agreement. Clearly there are major stumbling blocks which remain and in

:56:32.:56:35.

particular over the next few days we have to keep a very close eye on

:56:36.:56:40.

negotiations between the developed world and the developing world. We

:56:41.:56:45.

are seeing real division beer as always that these summits but

:56:46.:56:53.

particularly here over who has two cut and make the biggest sacrifices

:56:54.:56:57.

and crucially over who he is the most. What does Nicholas Durden

:56:58.:57:05.

think she can bring to the party? The First Minister we heard still

:57:06.:57:11.

believes Scotland has a positive story to tell. Still believes

:57:12.:57:18.

Cortland can lead by example. The real danger here is we constantly

:57:19.:57:27.

parrot this line about Scotland's world leading climate change targets

:57:28.:57:30.

and perhaps we give ourselves too large a part on the back. That is

:57:31.:57:34.

certainly the argument of Kezia Dugdale as we have heard and it is

:57:35.:57:38.

interesting that when you come to these climate summits you do tend to

:57:39.:57:42.

get the white from international delegates who generally genuinely

:57:43.:57:49.

are interested in those Scottish targets, 80% by 2050, they are very

:57:50.:57:55.

ambitious targets which still attract attention internationally.

:57:56.:58:02.

Yes, of course, Scotland is failing to hit those international targets

:58:03.:58:05.

but the growing of confidence among Scottish Government ministers and

:58:06.:58:10.

their advisers and statisticians and the Scottish Government that

:58:11.:58:14.

Scotland is very definitely on track to hit that 42% target. The is still

:58:15.:58:22.

interest in Scotland's story and Nicholas to urge and will be using

:58:23.:58:25.

that example to encourage others to act. -- Nicola Sturgeon. The

:58:26.:58:34.

resonant port of way of implementing those policies around the world and

:58:35.:58:38.

B will hear more tomorrow from the First Minister about the work of the

:58:39.:58:43.

states and impact and how that is helping deliver climate change

:58:44.:58:48.

policies internationally. She will also be talking about climate

:58:49.:58:52.

justice to make sure the world's oeuvres people are not most likely

:58:53.:58:59.

to suffer climate change consequences most acutely. Despite

:59:00.:59:05.

having had the lowest emissions over centuries. Thank you for joining us.

:59:06.:59:11.

Last Thursday was International Day Of Disabled People.

:59:12.:59:13.

In recognition of under-representation

:59:14.:59:14.

in political life, the Scottish government announced

:59:15.:59:15.

The aim is to identify barriers people with disabilities face

:59:16.:59:19.

Some rules have already been changed concerning disabled candidate

:59:20.:59:23.

This pilot project will hopefully lead to improved representation

:59:24.:59:30.

in elections in Scotland over the next couple of years.

:59:31.:59:32.

Jack Ashton lead, who's no longer with us, and bang, former

:59:33.:59:47.

Westminster MP, David Blunkett, retired, and Robertson, current MSP.

:59:48.:59:55.

All political figures with a disability. 20% of Scotland's

:59:56.:00:00.

population has a disability. Campaigners say they are

:00:01.:00:04.

underrepresented in politics. A pilot project launched last week by

:00:05.:00:08.

the Scottish Government hopes to put this right. The access politics

:00:09.:00:17.

project aims to avoid practical, direct but not financial support for

:00:18.:00:20.

disabled people to come forward and participate in democracy, elected

:00:21.:00:24.

office in particular, overcome summing -- overcoming some of the

:00:25.:00:29.

barriers, providing things like mentoring, opening up meetings and

:00:30.:00:36.

documents to be more accessible. That is under the United Nations

:00:37.:00:39.

Convention, it is recognised as a human rights. We want to make that

:00:40.:00:45.

real. Inclusion Scotland, which represents people with

:00:46.:00:49.

disabilities, will administer the community empowerment front. We hear

:00:50.:00:55.

lots about a fairer Scotland, about democratic renewal participation,

:00:56.:00:58.

has labelled people having the right to be involved in all aspects of

:00:59.:01:03.

society and that most definitely includes politics and political

:01:04.:01:08.

representation. They want a UK budget to support people with

:01:09.:01:12.

disabilities into politics, at the access to elected office fund has

:01:13.:01:17.

been stopped as it was underused. That fund really only kicked in when

:01:18.:01:22.

someone wanted to stand to be selected to be a candidate. By the

:01:23.:01:27.

time you got to that point, the likelihood is you will have already

:01:28.:01:32.

found a way around all manner of barriers. It was ticking into late

:01:33.:01:38.

in the process. Of the 129 MSPs in the building behind me, only six of

:01:39.:01:44.

them have declared having a disability. To be representative of

:01:45.:01:49.

Scotland it would have to be 26. Only four out of 650 MPs at

:01:50.:01:55.

Westminster have declared a disability. Can I give you a leaflet

:01:56.:02:02.

for the SNP? One in five was set up to encourage greater participation

:02:03.:02:07.

in politics. The group, which covers all political parties, campaigned

:02:08.:02:11.

for this new Scottish initiative. The good news about the pilot

:02:12.:02:15.

project is it will be an opportunity for disabled people across Scotland

:02:16.:02:20.

to flag up the interest to Inclusion Scotland and take advantage of the

:02:21.:02:25.

support they can offer. As something like this has never been done

:02:26.:02:29.

before, we will have to wait and see what the results are. If many people

:02:30.:02:34.

put their names forward for the support, I am confident we will be

:02:35.:02:37.

able to continue and this will lead to the creation of the access to

:02:38.:02:41.

elected office fund which will break down the main barrier disabled

:02:42.:02:46.

people face, Finance. It is not always about the money. Some

:02:47.:02:50.

potential candidates believe that different ways of working could make

:02:51.:02:55.

a difference. I have several disabilities, some potential

:02:56.:02:56.

candidates believe that different ways of working could make a

:02:57.:03:02.

difference. I have several disabilities, summer for me, the

:03:03.:03:05.

barrier is that the job is completely inflexible. If we could

:03:06.:03:09.

have shared workloads and teleconferencing, it would make the

:03:10.:03:12.

job more easy for me to get involved. During this pilot period,

:03:13.:03:20.

Inclusion Scotland 120 with people from disabilities who are interested

:03:21.:03:21.

in a political career. It's time to look back over

:03:22.:03:23.

the events of the week and look Joining me now is the Scotsman

:03:24.:03:26.

journalist and political commentator Joyce McMillan,

:03:27.:03:34.

and the former special advisor to the SNP and public relations

:03:35.:03:36.

consultant Kevin Pringle. Obviously, Joyce, Syria has been

:03:37.:03:47.

dominant. At the end of it, do you think anything has advanced or gone

:03:48.:03:53.

backwards? Britain is now involved in that bombing campaign, for better

:03:54.:03:58.

or worse and that is the political reality that everyone has to deal

:03:59.:04:02.

with. It has been a fairly thorough debate, to be fair. On the side of

:04:03.:04:11.

the pro-bombers, it has been a very emotional debate. Hilary Benn's much

:04:12.:04:16.

discussed speech struck me as being 90% emotion. Its appeal was very

:04:17.:04:25.

faint historical analogies, and one that was ridiculous in the case of

:04:26.:04:29.

the International Brigade, but delivered with emotion, the need for

:04:30.:04:33.

Britain to be part of the struggle against fascism. It was acclaimed in

:04:34.:04:42.

the hothouse of Westminster. All the talk was this is some sort of huge

:04:43.:04:47.

moment in parliamentary history. I just wonder if it was. We are

:04:48.:04:53.

already involved in an IVF campaign in Iraq. Britain is already involved

:04:54.:04:58.

in so many different strands of this, humanitarian, diplomatic, to

:04:59.:05:04.

other aspects of the military. Germany made a decision this week to

:05:05.:05:07.

send a few vessels. They will not take part in direct combat but they

:05:08.:05:13.

will be involved. I do not believe that whole line of the argument. One

:05:14.:05:17.

of the problems with these kinds of discussions in the UK context is

:05:18.:05:21.

that people overestimate the significance of our role. We have a

:05:22.:05:28.

role to play. We are not a small country, but 12 planes, it will

:05:29.:05:32.

might be make or break for any west and effort anywhere. It would help

:05:33.:05:35.

us to make more rational decisions if we were to get a sense of

:05:36.:05:42.

proportion. There was a double-stranded, Kevin, it was

:05:43.:05:46.

partly about military action, but the results were sense that this is

:05:47.:05:50.

about having a seat at the top table. The supporters of bombing

:05:51.:05:54.

would say, it is not two different things. If you want to be taken

:05:55.:05:59.

seriously in the diplomatic process in Vienna, you have to be seen to be

:06:00.:06:06.

part of the coalition which is now fairly broad. I think Joyce is

:06:07.:06:09.

right. That narrative comes through too often in such issues. It was

:06:10.:06:13.

similar when Trident was debated recently in the House of Commons. As

:06:14.:06:17.

well as the actual case for Trident, which I do not think exists, rather

:06:18.:06:22.

than any military rationale, what comes across all the time is the

:06:23.:06:27.

political, the diplomatic need for the UK to have clout. There was an

:06:28.:06:32.

analogy between that debate and the debate on Syria this week. It seemed

:06:33.:06:37.

to not be settled on the military realities but on the issue of

:06:38.:06:42.

Clyde. Is that not a valid argument? I do not think it is. If

:06:43.:06:46.

you're going into military campaign, sending servicemen and women into

:06:47.:06:53.

conflict, the case has got to be signed on military grounds. This one

:06:54.:06:58.

is not. The fatal flaw, and I think this is a point that Stephen Gethins

:06:59.:07:01.

made earlier, there is no credible ground force they are. One of the

:07:02.:07:06.

good aspects of the debate in the House of Commons was a good expose

:07:07.:07:13.

in that particular regard the floor in the Prime Minister's case. That

:07:14.:07:15.

aspect of the ground force was not in the government motion, the fact

:07:16.:07:20.

there are supposedly 70,000 moderate troops. They are not there. It is

:07:21.:07:25.

like saying unless something retail scenario exists, which is never

:07:26.:07:30.

going to exist, we will do nothing? We use that as an excuse? It is not

:07:31.:07:34.

about doing nothing, it is about doing what is effective. It would be

:07:35.:07:41.

highly effective to starve -- of funding. They are extraordinarily

:07:42.:07:53.

wealthy. -- starve Daesh. We could do a lot through the banking

:07:54.:07:58.

system. The military case was lost because of the spurious diplomatic

:07:59.:08:07.

clout adamant. -- argument. Labour got bound up in this whole Syria

:08:08.:08:10.

thing and then they seemed to bounce back at the end of the week against

:08:11.:08:15.

everyone's expectations with the by-election victory. It was a very

:08:16.:08:25.

interesting results. I thought that Labour did not do well out of the

:08:26.:08:30.

debate on Syria because they appeared so divided, even if some of

:08:31.:08:34.

them were making pretty strong arguments on either side. There you

:08:35.:08:40.

go. Obviously the voters they did not seem to mind so much about

:08:41.:08:45.

Labour are being divided. It was a very low turnout. I wonder if there

:08:46.:08:49.

is an element, this thing that parties cannot be divided, it is

:08:50.:08:55.

something that political commentators say. When you speak to

:08:56.:08:59.

people about this issue, they seem to be more interested in the issue

:09:00.:09:04.

of Syria. They say, if people have different views, that is fine. The

:09:05.:09:09.

important thing is who is right and who's wrong, not whether are

:09:10.:09:13.

divided. That is an interesting question that we do not know the

:09:14.:09:18.

answer to yet. Historically being divided has not served political

:09:19.:09:23.

parties well. One of the interesting things about Jeremy Corbyn is that

:09:24.:09:26.

he is trying to change the language of it. He is trying to speak in a

:09:27.:09:31.

different way about having debates within the party and the rest of it.

:09:32.:09:35.

Admittedly it has turned nasty this week, for similar reasons to what

:09:36.:09:39.

happened during the independence referendum campaign, where one

:09:40.:09:44.

particular side was smeared by association with a few loudmouths on

:09:45.:09:48.

the Internet. That is not Jeremy Corbyn's line. He may be succeeding

:09:49.:09:55.

in making people think how much they value unity in a party, and how much

:09:56.:10:00.

of a party, and how much they value honesty. Kevin, you used to be a

:10:01.:10:07.

spin doctor. If you were advising Jeremy Corbyn, what would you be

:10:08.:10:12.

seeing? Would you be saying, we cannot have this division? I think

:10:13.:10:17.

you have got to lead. What Joyce says is correct, and obviously the

:10:18.:10:21.

by-election was successful, probably for a mix of local and national

:10:22.:10:26.

reasons, arguably more local because the candidate was a particularly

:10:27.:10:31.

strong local candidate. Certainly the national dimension did no harm.

:10:32.:10:35.

The very least that Jeremy Corbyn supporters can say is, hang on a

:10:36.:10:39.

minute, everyone said having this man as leader would be a disaster,

:10:40.:10:45.

even in our core areas. Irrespective of whether Corbyn can win in the

:10:46.:10:50.

south of England, the very least Corbyn supporters can say is that

:10:51.:10:54.

you were wrong when you said that we could not even win over our

:10:55.:10:59.

traditional heartland. Clearly Labour can win in traditional areas

:11:00.:11:01.

like Oldham. It was well served by Labour can win in traditional areas

:11:02.:11:06.

Michael Meacher for a long time. The candidate now seems to be

:11:07.:11:10.

particularly strong. That is OK in terms of where we are now. As we get

:11:11.:11:16.

closer to the next general election, in 2020, at that point Jeremy Corbyn

:11:17.:11:23.

has got to be a leader, he has got to lead. We will be well beyond the

:11:24.:11:28.

time from letting everybody say everything they like. There will

:11:29.:11:34.

come a time where there has to be collective Shadow Cabinet

:11:35.:11:37.

responsibility. That is an essential aspect for any government in

:11:38.:11:42.

waiting. Between now and 2020, Jeremy Corbyn has got to be a leader

:11:43.:11:48.

in the true sense of the term. I do not know if we have got the front

:11:49.:11:51.

page, but there was a story in the mail today. SNP hypocrites. He was

:11:52.:11:57.

involved in some sort of Jimmy Carter style tax avoidance. What did

:11:58.:12:03.

you make of this? He is saying that the kind of package he had, with tax

:12:04.:12:09.

avoidance, not illegal invasion, it was standard in the industry that he

:12:10.:12:13.

was working in at the time. We have heard that before. That is what he

:12:14.:12:22.

says. Now he is not in that industry, he will use his knowledge

:12:23.:12:25.

of that to try and get them to change the regulations so that

:12:26.:12:29.

people like the person he used to be cannot get away with it any more.

:12:30.:12:33.

That is the line. That is rather wonderful. He appears to be saying,

:12:34.:12:39.

because I was involved in this, I will use it to slack off the British

:12:40.:12:44.

government because I have inside knowledge. He would not be the first

:12:45.:12:48.

poacher turned gamekeeper. It seems to be alone that has been repaid.

:12:49.:12:54.

There is a desire to make it another story about an SNP MSP. I am not

:12:55.:12:59.

sure it really measures up. There is no suggestion that Mr Boswell has

:13:00.:13:02.

done anything illegal. It is an attempt. I would have thought that

:13:03.:13:07.

there were bigger issue is this week to put on the front page. The

:13:08.:13:13.

climate change conference, very briefly, are you optimistic? Yes, I

:13:14.:13:17.

think there is a view that the international community has got to

:13:18.:13:21.

arrive at a deal this time. It did not do before. I think Scotland can

:13:22.:13:28.

have a role to play by influence. Eurosceptical. I would say it is

:13:29.:13:35.

pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will. It is hard to believe

:13:36.:13:38.

they will do anything that will make a difference but we have to believe

:13:39.:13:44.

that we can try. OK. That is all we have time for this week.

:13:45.:13:47.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:48.:13:50.

Jo Coburn and Gordon Brewer present.

Jo Coburn speaks to security expert Will Geddes on the terrorism threat to the UK, and prominent Conservative backbencher Bernard Jenkin gives his thoughts on David Cameron's negotiation with the EU.

Shadow work and pensions secretary Owen Smith is also on the show, as well as new up-and-coming Conservative MP Heidi Allen.

Janan Ganesh of the Financial Times, Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail and Nick Watt of the Guardian are on the political panel.


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