Browse content similar to 10/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
After a week of damaging questions over his financial affairs, | :00:39. | :00:40. | |
David Cameron tries to get on the front foot | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
by publishing details of his tax bills. | :00:44. | :00:46. | |
but no evidence he's avoided or evaded any tax. | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
Will it silence his critics or just spur them on? | :00:54. | :00:55. | |
We've got the details and the analysis. | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
The Prime Minister's bigger challenge | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
is still winning the EU referendum, and one of his key arguments | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
is that membership helps keep us safe. | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
And this should be Ukip's big moment, so why is the party | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
fighting among itself and facing an uncertain future? | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
We'll bring you the full account of what's going wrong inside Ukip. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland: | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
We begin our series of interviews with the Scottish party leaders. | :01:24. | :01:25. | |
Today it's the turn of David Coburn of Ukip and the co-convener | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie. | :01:29. | :01:39. | |
All that and more coming up in the next hour and a quarter. | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
And when it comes to embarrassing admissions, PR blunders and having | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
we've decided to bring in the real experts. | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Yes, it's Sam Coates, Beth Rigby and Isabel Oakeshott. | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
Luckily, their tax affairs are pretty simple, | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
but that's mainly because we pay them so badly. | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Without a doubt, it's been a pretty miserable time | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
He's been on the defensive since Monday, when his father | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
was linked to the so-called Panama Papers, leaked documents | :02:11. | :02:12. | |
which showed how the rich and powerful use | :02:13. | :02:14. | |
It's led to thousands protesting outside Downing Street | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
For the first time, his approval ratings | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged he'd handled the affair badly, | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
and overnight Number 10 published the headlines of his personal income | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
tax returns for the past six years, including the tax he's paid. | :02:29. | :02:35. | |
So what, if anything, has he done wrong? | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
Well, we'll attempt to answer that question this morning, | :02:38. | :02:39. | |
but first here's a reminder of how the story unfolded. | :02:40. | :02:48. | |
The Panama Papers contain links to 12 current or former heads of state | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
and government. In the UK, attention has focused on David Cameron and an | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
offshore investment fund which is late father, Ian Cameron, set up in | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
the early 1980s. Blairmore was incorporated in one tax saving, | :03:05. | :03:07. | |
Panama, but based in another, the Bahamas. He used a financial | :03:08. | :03:14. | |
instrument to protect investors per' privacy, then legal, but since | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
outlawed in the UK. At on Monday whether the Prime Minister had | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
personally benefited from the company, Downing Street said it was | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
a private matter. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron tried to draw a line under | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
it all, saying I have no shares, no offshore trusts, no offshore funds, | :03:31. | :03:32. | |
nothing like that. Later that day, Downing Street | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
sent a clarification - to be clear, the Prime Minister, | :03:37. | :03:38. | |
his wife and their children do not benefit from | :03:39. | :03:40. | |
any offshore funds. On Wednesday, a fourth statement | :03:41. | :03:42. | |
was issued by Downing Street - there are no offshore funds, | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
trusts which the Prime Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children | :03:46. | :03:47. | |
will benefit from in future. Under increasing pressure, | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
David Cameron gave an interview to ITV on Thursday in which he | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
revealed that he had sold his shares in Blairmore in 2010 | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
for just over ?30,000. The Prime Minister said the profits | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
and dividends he and his wife Samantha made from the investment | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
were subject to all UK taxes in normal ways, | :04:07. | :04:08. | |
and legal opinion suggests Mr Cameron has done | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
nothing illegal. But he has faced intense criticism | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
over his handling of the story. says this has undermined the trust | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
that we have in him. Mr Cameron has now published | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
the headlines of his tax returns, They show that in addition | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
to ?300,000 that he received after his father's death | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
in September 2010, his mother gave him two gifts | :04:32. | :04:34. | |
of ?100,000 each in 2011. Downing Street has | :04:35. | :04:42. | |
vigorously denied suggestions that this was done | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
to minimise tax paid on the estate. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn | :04:52. | :04:54. | |
and Energy Secretary Amber Rudd have both been talking about this | :04:55. | :04:56. | |
on the Marr show this morning, we need to know what he has | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
actually returned as a tax return. We need to know why he put this | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
money overseas in the first place and whether he made anything out | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
of it or not before 2010, These are questions | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
that he must answer. is that the Prime Minister and | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
his family have done nothing wrong. I mean, the independent tax expert | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
at the start of this programme confirmed that, | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
lots of independent tax experts We're joined now by our economics | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
editor Kamal Ahmed, he's been You have been a busy man! For the | :05:27. | :05:42. | |
first time ever we have seen a Prime Minister's tax returns, at least the | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
headlines, what have we led? Well, it is interesting, isn't it? David | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
Cameron has gone from suggesting a mere six days ago that this was a | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
private matter to a sort of tax shock and awe, I will put it all out | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
there, people can make decisions on the details. I have been scribbling | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
down the details, and there is a lot there. It shows that he has earned | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
over ?1 million since he has been Prime Minister, not just from his | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
prime ministerial salary, but from other income, rental income. He has | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
paid tax of about ?400,000, an effective rate of about 37%, which | :06:20. | :06:29. | |
would be pretty normal. As we said at the top of the programme, he has | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
revealed these two payments from his mother of ?100,000 each, which were | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
gifted to him after his father died. And in the previous year he had | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
300,000 from his father, as an inheritance. Downing Street said | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
that his mother made the payments to the Prime Minister because his older | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
brother had inherited the house, and she was trying to even up the sort | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
of inheritance as it was shared out. As you look at that, the experts | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
saying there was any kind of tax dodge involved in this, either from | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
the estate or with the Prime Minister? I think the whole issue is | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
what is avoidance and what is sensible tax planning. If you think | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
that putting your savings into an Isa is tax avoidance, because it is | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
tax free in terms of your investments, then you will probably | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
think that this type of gifting is some form of tax avoidance. The only | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
time it would become tax avoidance is it David Cameron's mother dies, | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
this is a horrible way to have a conversation, but this is how the | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
tax law works. If she dies before 2018, there is a seven year limit on | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
gifts to your children. Her estate would pay the tax, and her children | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
would have a share of a smaller pot of money. But the tax was put in | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
place there two when sure that any gifts that are given, if they are | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
given within seven years of the parents dying, still become liable | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
for inheritance tax. So I think that the one big point is that David | :07:56. | :08:02. | |
Cameron, as do nearly everybody, particularly if they are wealthy, | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
has planned his tax affairs so that he pays no more tax than is | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
necessary. Now, people might think that is morally wrong, but... He | :08:10. | :08:16. | |
once said it was morally wrong, did he not? He was talking about | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
aggressive tax avoidance. This is currently! This is very simple, very | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
vanilla, things that would be available to anybody. I think what | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
he was trying to say, all the difference that Downing Street would | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
argue, was that it is different from the pop stars and the people in | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
entertainment who used complicated funding mechanisms to avoid tax. And | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
this, which is normal tax planning, in terms of what your tax adviser, | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
if you are wealthy, would say to you. It is a watershed in British | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
politics, two CDs tax returns, but are we not in danger of making too | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
much out of them? -- to see these tax returns. I do not suggest the | :08:59. | :09:08. | |
prime and has -- the minister has done anything wrong, but if you | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
have, it would not be in your tax return. There is no suggestion that | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
he has done anything wrong, but the watershed issue is around the | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
long-held belief in law that your tax affairs are private. And what | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
this has done is opened up, I would suggest, every Cabinet minister, | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
every member of the government to the notion that they will have to | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
publish not just this year's tax returns but six years of tax | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
returns. And if they do not, the question will be, why are you not | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
doing that? The Cabinet will be over the moon about that(!) Let's cut to | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
the chase, it is almost did the Chancellor will have to publish his | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
tax returns. I think so. There was an attempt to shut down the story | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
once and for all by saying, here are his tax returns, the Prime Minister | :09:54. | :10:03. | |
has done nothing wrong, but they have let the genie out of the | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
bottle. The Chancellor will now be under pressure, other Cabinet | :10:07. | :10:08. | |
ministers will be under pressure. Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting that | :10:09. | :10:10. | |
people in public life more broadly should have to publish their tax | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
returns. So it is a big moment in terms of transparency and demand is | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
from the public for transparency, but if you think about it, this | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
began with the MPs expenses, I would argue, and ever since then the | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
public trust in politicians and in the way they behave has been on the | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
slide, and this is a continuation of that, a continuation of the demand | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
for transparency. John McDonnell has told the BBC, we will ensure that | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
any donor linked to the Labour Party will not be using devices to evade | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
tax. Good luck on that(!) HMRC have trouble figuring that out. This has | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
a wider political significance, we are running up to the European | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
referendum, the Prime Minister is mainly seen as the main asset in the | :10:59. | :11:03. | |
Remain campaign, it is not great news when he is being dragged | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
through the news like this. Luff, this is as bad a week of headlines I | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
can remember since the Prime Minister entered office. -- no. It | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
has not resulted in anyone being able to level an accusation that the | :11:21. | :11:23. | |
Prime Minister that would stand up in a court of law. There is no | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
suggestion that anyone is credibly making that he aggressively avoided | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
tax. The question is, if that is the case, how has it ended up getting | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
quite so bad for David Cameron? And I think at the heart of it has been | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
an inability of Downing Street really to explain properly to people | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
what is going on here, and I think that they are still, even morning, | :11:44. | :11:51. | |
struggled to explain why, if he was doing nothing wrong, his father | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
needed to set up a company in the Bahamas that used this anonymous | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
form of company liability. That was the weakest part of the Prime | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
Minister's statement in the week, that this investment vehicle, | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
Blairmore, had not been set up to mitigate or avoid tax. I mean, if | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
you register in Panama and operate out of the Bahamas, I mean, what | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
else are you doing?! That is paid of the absurd, and we know that Ian | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
Cameron made a living out of offering this sort of advice to very | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
wealthy clients, and there was nothing wrong with that. When he set | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
up his business, the political climate was absolutely different to | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
what it is today. There was nothing wrong with what he was doing then. | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
It was simply absurd of David Cameron to suggest that it was not | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
set up for those reasons. I disagree about the weakest point, I think | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
that was the private matter, you know, when David Cameron's | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
spokeswoman suggested that this was a private matter, it all went | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
downhill from there. I think today the headlines about inheritance tax | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
and whether this is some kind of dodgy avoidance or evasion is | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
something of a red herring. He has not, as Kamal said, done anything | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
wrong, it is very standard practice, and there is a world of difference | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
between evasion and avoidance. There is nothing fishy about this in | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
particular. Kamal, you have been following this, the political | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
ramifications still huge in that even if he loses the referendum, he | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
is going, this will encourage, but even if he wins, the Tory party may | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
see him, although we has done nothing wrong, as part of the | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
walking wounded. On this issue, which has been interesting, the | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
Conservative Party has lined up behind him. He has not been | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
attacked, as he has over other issues, like George Osborne's Budget | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
or Tata Steel, so this has been quite a unifying moment for the | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
Conservative Party, interestingly. What it does that is dangerous is it | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
makes the referendum much more of a vote about David Cameron, which is | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
the last thing that people in Number Ten want it to be. Another busy | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
weekend of you! Now is the UK safer in or out | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
of the European Union? It's one of the central questions | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
in the referendum debate Does membership help protect | :14:08. | :14:09. | |
us against terrorist attacks, And are the big foreign policy | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
challenges, like those posed by Russia or Iran, | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
better tackled through the EU or with our other | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
international partners alone? giving his view | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
earlier in the week. We draw our strength | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
as a country from the fact we are the fifth-biggest economy | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
in the world, we have a special relationship with the United States, | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
we are members of Nato, the G7, but we also get | :14:32. | :14:33. | |
some strength from being in the European Union, | :14:34. | :14:41. | |
the organisation for our continent that actually helps us, | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
whether it is confronting Iran and making sure we don't have | :14:46. | :14:47. | |
Iranian nuclear weapons, whether it is standing up | :14:48. | :14:50. | |
to Vladimir Putin and his aggression in Ukraine, we are stronger | :14:51. | :14:52. | |
by being part of this organisation. I'm joined now by a member | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
of the Cameron government, the Armed Forces Minister | :15:00. | :15:01. | |
Penny Mordaunt. She's campaigning for Britain | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
to vote to leave the EU. The Prime Minister, the Defence | :15:04. | :15:16. | |
Secretary, 12 former British defence chiefs all say our security is | :15:17. | :15:18. | |
enhanced by remaining in. Those job titles, baked not | :15:19. | :15:31. | |
arguments. I am very clear, having worn a uniform, three years on the | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
House of Commons defence committee, being an aid worker in the former | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
Eastern Bloc, we would be safer outside the EU. They are responsible | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
for our security. One of them is your boss, that is his title. They | :15:45. | :15:53. | |
think we are safer in. There is a lot of things we agree on. We agree | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
that Nato is the cornerstone of our defence, but that the EU defence | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
structures condiment that. If we were outside the EU, we would not | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
lose anything from those structures. The common European defence policy | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
and the procurement opportunities, the opportunities to partake in | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
missions, they are open to non-EU member states and Nato, so we don't | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
lose anything by leaving. We would gain massively the ability to take | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
that control of our borders, just one example, if we were outside. | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
Let's take the issue of what we would lose. Michael Fallon, you are | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
in his department, he is a Eurosceptic, he says, if we left, it | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
would be smaller and weaker, which is precisely what Vladimir Putin | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
wants. He wants the EU to be smaller and weaker. You cannot deny that. | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
The key issue is, what is the operational benefit that being in | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
the EU or taking part in any of the defence structures and security | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
structures that it plans on setting up, like a pan European intelligence | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
agency, what is the benefit of that? I would argue there is none, and it | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
frustrates our ability to share intelligence. We don't share | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
intelligence with pan-European agencies, we share it with other | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
nations are. I did not ask about that. I asked a geopolitical | :17:26. | :17:33. | |
question, your boss says the EU would be smaller and weaker if we | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
left, and that is precisely what the Kremlin wants. Do you deny that? In | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
a time of austerity, when we are facing massive terror threats, if we | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
are spending time, money and energy on anything that does not give as an | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
operational advantage and a benefit in tackling those threats, that is | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
crazy. Do you deny that it would leave us smaller and weaker and that | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
is what Vladimir Putin wants? No. The thing that. Any malicious | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
ambitions that anybody has against us, the Ukraine, other member states | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
of the European Union is the success, the economic prosperity, | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
the National security of those nation states. That is what will | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
hold the threat that we are facing from Vladimir Putin and elsewhere. | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
Philip Hammond says, it is only our enemies who want us to leave. Can | :18:29. | :18:36. | |
you name a single ally that want us to leave? I can. People have | :18:37. | :18:42. | |
different views in different nations. That is take our strongest | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
ally, the United States. They want us to stay. That is what Barack | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
Obama has said, but I would argue strongly, and there are many people | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
there that would agree with me, the former head of the CIA is one, | :18:59. | :19:10. | |
thinks that the EU is requiring of us of restricting our alliance with | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
the United States. The official policy of America under Republican | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
and Democratic presidents has been that we should stay in. That is a | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
fact. That is their view, but it is not an argument. I asked if you | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
could name a major or minor ally that we have that want us to leave. | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
I have mentioned the United States. They want us to stay. Give me an | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
ally that want us to leave. Australia, New Zealand, Canada, | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
France, Germany? Our key relationships, they fully | :19:49. | :19:54. | |
understand... Our relationship with them is threatened by legislation | :19:55. | :20:03. | |
and requirements of the EU. The most sophisticated intelligence alliance | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
in the world involves Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand, | :20:08. | :20:14. | |
Canada, they want us to stay. I think they are wrong. The | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
relationship that we have with them would be jeopardised and would be | :20:19. | :20:23. | |
further jeopardised when we set up... That is their view. You have | :20:24. | :20:30. | |
mentioned Nato, the general secretary says a strong EU with a | :20:31. | :20:36. | |
strong Britain is good for Nato. The head of the US Army in Europe says | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
leaving could weaken Nato. There are people that will argue that Nato is | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
undermined by the EU structures. Not the head of Nato. The EU defence | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
structures that we have complemented. But they are not | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
closed off to us by leaving. The key issue about the threats we are | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
facing, the threats that come with free movement of people and also | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
with civil unrest on the continent, will be resolved by us leaving, by | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
taking back control of our borders, our laws and money. And | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
kick-starting reform in the EU. All of the parties that want us to | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
leave, they are protectionist, xenophobic, authoritarian, against | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
the single market, and they hope by us leaving, there will be chaos in | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
Europe. Is that the chaos that would be good for our security? Vladimir | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
Putin, you have mentioned, the rise of far right organisations in | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
Europe, as a consequence of the forced harmonisation of the euro and | :21:50. | :21:55. | |
the austerity and the problems that is bringing to member states, they | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
have their arguments. They are not on my side, they are mistaken. What | :22:02. | :22:09. | |
will ensure that those malicious ambitions against us are thwarted is | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
if we have strong nation states. That is not what Europe is currently | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
delivering. It is delivering weak states, states that don't have the | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
money to put into their defence. The Prime Minister, the Defence | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, the head of Nato, the head of the US | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
Army in Europe, all of our major allies, starting with America, think | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
we are more secure and they would be more secure if we stay in, and you, | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
a junior minister in the defence Department, say they are wrong. If | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
they were all lined up in front of me, I would say freedom is never a | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
gamble. We have gambled a huge amount in the past to preserve our | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
freedom, we risk nothing by trying to take it back. If we take back | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
control of our borders, we have got free movement of people, with the | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
risk that brings... We are running out of time. In what way with being | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
outside the EU make it easier for us to stop terrorists coming in? | :23:14. | :23:23. | |
Europol estimate we have 5000 Daesh fighters that have returned to | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
Europe. Unless we have concrete intelligence, we cannot turn them | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
back. Are you saying that other Europeans would now need a visa to | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
come to this country? How would you stop somebody with a European | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
passport to come in? We could have control. We don't have those options | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
now. If we had suspicions, we would stop them coming in. That is not | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
correct. We stopped about 6000 people from the EU. On matters of | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
security issues of public danger, we stopped around 500 a year, we can do | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
that now, whether they have an EU passport or not. If we have sketchy | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
intelligence, we cannot prevent them from coming in. Unless you have a | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
Visa system from France and Germany, you could not direct. We risk | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
nothing by taking back control of our borders and our laws that | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
underpin this framework. It is not a gamble, staying in is a gamble, | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
because it will only get worse. We have to take back control, that is | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
what is required to keep our nation safe. Has the controversy around the | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
Prime Minister damaged his credibility as leader of the Remain | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
campaign? I don't think so. I don't have any other inside scoop, but I | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
don't think he has done anything wrong. What this is about is trust | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
and he has two now demonstrate and builder up that trust and report | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
with the general public. This will raise questions, as your panel said, | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
about politicians publishing further information about themselves, and | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
although I understand argument around privacy and security, if that | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
is what the electorate require of their officials, that is what will | :25:21. | :25:21. | |
have to happen. We're now well into the campaign | :25:22. | :25:24. | |
period for local and national elections | :25:25. | :25:26. | |
across the UK on May 5th. With the Conservatives and Labour | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
not exactly united at the moment you might think it's a perfect | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
opportunity for Ukip, the party that won four million | :25:32. | :25:33. | |
votes at last year's Even more so when the elections | :25:34. | :25:35. | |
are being fought during an EU referendum campaign | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
Nigel Farage helped bring about. So why instead are the men and women | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
of his party so bitterly divided? All political parties have ups | :25:44. | :25:50. | |
and downs, but mostly Ukip has been climbing the ladder | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
of British politics. It's poised on the verge | :25:56. | :25:57. | |
of a referendum it helped secure, offering the very thing the party | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
was set up for. So why is it so short of funds | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
and riven with in-fighting? Once-dominant Nigel Farage has lost | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
control of parts of his party. The clearest example is being foiled | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
by the party's ruling body over his prefered candidates | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
for May elections in Wales. In particular, his desire to stop | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
the selection of Neil Hamilton, Electoral concerns about Mr Hamilton | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
are not new in Ukip. The Sunday Politics has | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
been given a series In January 2015, Mr Hamilton | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
complained to Nigel Farage he'd been branded as toxic by some | :26:35. | :26:41. | |
inside the party. Michael McGough, a general-election | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
candidate, emailed Mr Hamilton In every article that you feature, | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
your name has the appendage "disgraced former Tory MP", | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
and sadly this will continue. And on the same day an email | :26:55. | :27:06. | |
from the then-party treasurer Andrew Reid accused Mr Hamilton, | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
by then a longstanding Ukip-er, of behaving exactly | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
as he'd been portrayed.. If you looked at the Welsh assembly | :27:15. | :27:47. | |
elections, those are a great example of their tendency to shoot itself in | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
the foot. You have some very Eurosceptic areas, but yet Ukip has | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
become embroiled in a dispute over which of its candidates should stand | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
where and whether it should be standing former Conservatives in | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
mainly industrial parts of the country. | :28:07. | :28:08. | |
The infighting didn't stop with Neil Hamilton, | :28:09. | :28:10. | |
with 16 candidates signing a letter demanding that another candidate, | :28:11. | :28:12. | |
Gareth Bennett, be deselected because he had expressed a negative | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
view of other candidates, undermined the party | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
and our own ability to campaign through his offensive | :28:21. | :28:23. | |
and borderline-racist comments about immigrants to Wales. | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
The party's National Executive Council did not deselect him and two | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
other candidates have since stood down. | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
Nigel Farage has been repeatedly outvoted by the NEC, | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
leading Mr Farage to consider abolishing it. | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
However, the Sunday Politics has learned just this week | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
a representative of the NEC hostile to Nigel Farage angrily accosted | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
a Welsh Ukip staffer in the Cardiff office, | :28:53. | :28:54. | |
saying, "I've come to find which faction you are in, | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
And Neil isn't the only colleague Nigel has fallen out with. | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
Just two weeks ago, Suzanne Evans, seen by many as one of the party's | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
best performers, ended up in the extraordinary position | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
of taking the party to the High Court to overturn | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
a suspension that also barred her from standing | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
If people cannot come together and unite behind the main principles of | :29:19. | :29:32. | |
the party, maybe they are in the wrong party and they should take | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
their personal career ambitions to another party. | :29:36. | :29:36. | |
On top of this, insiders have told the Sunday Politics Ukip's in severe | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
Staff have been laid off, or unpaid for months, | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
membership is down and candidates are expected to contribute | :29:44. | :29:45. | |
in the thousands to their own campaigns. | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
Stuart Wheeler, a donor who's given Ukip over 600K in the past six | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
years, told us he hasn't donated to the party since last year and has | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
Paul Sykes, who contributed to Ukip's 2014 European elections | :29:57. | :30:06. | |
campaign, is no longer funding the party. | :30:07. | :30:10. | |
Ukip doesn't control the funding Parliament gives to an opposition | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
Currently 212K a year, that's controlled by the party's | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
one MP, Douglas Carswell, who turned down the original sum | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
of 670K and as a result fell out with Nigel Farage. | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
We've learned that until recently the security bill for Mr Farage | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
around a third of all monthly membership fees. | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
The sum may now be lower, and is not now funded by the party. | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
The party also paid Facebook ?90,000 in the year of the general election. | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
Senior figures are split, supporting rival campaigns | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
for leaving the European Union, both vying to be | :30:58. | :30:59. | |
Nigel Farage is determined that it will be Grassroots Out rather | :31:00. | :31:08. | |
than rivals Vote Leave that wins that designation, to be | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
One donor who is still giving to Ukip, ?50,000 to the Welsh | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
campaign last week, is Arron Banks, a key figure in Grassroots Out. | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
We have been told by numerous sources that Nigel Farage wants | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
to restructure and revamp Ukip after the referendum, | :31:25. | :31:26. | |
and that they think Arron Banks would be chairman | :31:27. | :31:28. | |
I did not say rebranded as much, but I have watched the five Star | :31:29. | :31:43. | |
Movement in Italy, basically, an online party, where people can join | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
for modest sums of money, but have a say in choosing the direction of the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
party, a sense that the old membership models are a bit | :31:53. | :31:53. | |
outdated. His critics think he extends | :31:54. | :31:54. | |
that view to the NEC. His supporters say such | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
a digital model would also make this troublesome body for Mr Farage | :31:59. | :32:00. | |
redunant and let him take back control of a party that right now | :32:01. | :32:03. | |
is far from at ease with itself. And we're joined in the studio | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
now by Neil Hamilton, he's a former deputy chairman | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
of Ukip, and he's hoping to become one of the party's first members | :32:13. | :32:14. | |
of the Welsh Assembly. Welcome to the programme. Ukip was | :32:15. | :32:23. | |
created to bring about a referendum on the EU, you have got one, why is | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
the party in such chaos? It is a fantastic achievement for Ukip to | :32:29. | :32:32. | |
have brought this referendum to the people of Britain, but Ukip has | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
grown up very rapidly in the last few years. It is only in the last | :32:37. | :32:40. | |
four or five years that it has become a mainstream political party, | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
and I suppose... These are the growing pains of such a party. It is | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
basically about jockeying for position, and you get these personal | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
feuds in all parties. I lived through the Major government and the | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
Thatcher government, where we saw it in spades, this is nothing compared | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
to the Conservative Party. A crucial issue that has exposed the visions | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
within the party, which of the rival campaign should get the official | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
designation from the Electoral Commission, which one do you want to | :33:12. | :33:17. | |
get it? Well, I have taken a neutral position all along, because we have | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
to work with whoever gets the designation, and I am a great | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
admirer of Arron Banks, he has made a fantastic contribution. There can | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
only be one. Years Nigel's preferred vehicle. I am asking your view. I am | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
ambivalent, I will unite behind whoever gets the designation, the | :33:38. | :33:40. | |
Electoral Commission will announce the decision in the coming weeks, so | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
this will be an argument in the past. How much trouble is there | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
between Mr Farage and the party's ruling national executive committee? | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
Well, Nigel is a member of and a frequent at tender at the NEC. | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
Because he is the party leader and a strong and dominant individual, | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
without whom Ukip is -- would not be where it is today, it does not mean | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
he get his way on everything, we are a Democratic Party. The NEC is a | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
vigorous forum for debate, that is a healthy situation. Will he try to | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
change that after the referendum, will there be a Farage coup? Just | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
because you read it in the newspapers does not mean it is true, | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
of course! I have no window into Nigel's mind on this. Should he? I | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
am not seeing anybody who knows anything about this, apart from | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
whoever wrote the piece in the having done post. Should he continue | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
as leader? He was elected just two years ago, he can go on for three | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
years before going for re-elections. I am asking for your view. I think | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
years before going for re-elections. he will continue as leader beyond | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
the referendum. The world after the referendum will be a very different | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
kettle of fish... I am asking your view, should he continue as leader | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
after the referendum? I think there will be a widespread re-evaluation | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
of work Ukip is after the referendum. We are going to win | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
seats in the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Government and the Northern | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
Ireland Assembly, and we will then have various representatives... Let | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
me try one more time, after the referendum, should he step down? | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
me try one more time, after the Should there be a new leader, in | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
your view? I am not going to call for Nigel to stand down, I am | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
perfectly certain that if there were an election for leader, party | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
members would vote for Nigel overwhelmingly. This is a nonissue. | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
When was the last time you spoke to him? Several weeks ago, when he came | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
to the NEC meeting last month. You used to be great mates. We still | :35:52. | :35:59. | |
are, it is like a married couple who have been together quite a long | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
time, you have ups and downs, he throws China at me, I figured up and | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
put it on the mantelpiece. He blocked you from standing in the | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
general election, you were removed as deputy chairman in February, he | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
wanted you off the list in Wales, all part of the division and chaos | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
that Farage and Hamilton dynamic. Ukip is a life political | :36:23. | :36:26. | |
institution, people have... There are personality feuds and | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
difficulties. I do not think we lose anything by saying that we are | :36:32. | :36:34. | |
normal red-blooded individuals and have the same kind of tips that | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
other parties have. Ukip is strengthened by these kinds of | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
scraps, I think. We heard some of the e-mails about you, does it | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
disturb you that some members regard you as a controversial, even a toxic | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
vigour in the party? Well, this is all exaggerated. It is just tittle | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
tattle. That was one e-mail amongst many thousands of e-mails I have | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
had. There were several e-mails, articles said that your name has the | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
appendage disgraced former Tory MP. Hearty members do not seem to be too | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
bothered about that, because they voted for me in overwhelming numbers | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
to be the candidate in the Welsh assembly in my region. -- party | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
members. I topped the poll in the national executive elections with | :37:30. | :37:31. | |
the highest number of votes anybody has ever got in an NEC election. I | :37:32. | :37:39. | |
would have thought it may be a lesson learned, expenses. That was a | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
misrepresentation, and the innuendo was entirely dismissed after an | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
internal investigation. So you did not claim for staying at your wife's | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
place? I am not going to go into what I did or did not claim for in | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
my expenses when I was the Ukip campaign director. I had a pay | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
package which was agreed, and all my pay and expenses were legitimate. | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
You know, the key point here is that Ukip is now a major player in the | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
land, we will elect ten members to the Welsh assembly... You have said | :38:16. | :38:18. | |
that, and you hope to be one of them. Would you ever see yourself as | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
the future leader of Ukip? At my age, your age? We are | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
contemporaries! I do not see myself as a future leader. That is be | :38:29. | :38:30. | |
enough, Neil Hamilton. It's just gone 11:35, | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome | :38:34. | :38:42. | |
to Sunday Politics Scotland. Ukip launched its Scottish | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
manifesto this week - we'll be speaking to David Coburn | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
about its proposals and asking if the party is too British | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
to do well in Scotland. An invigorated Scottish Green Party | :38:54. | :38:55. | |
is fighting its We'll ask Patrick Harvie | :38:56. | :38:57. | |
if they can win enough The offshore banking industry has | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
taken a beating this week, but is there a legitimate role | :39:02. | :39:10. | |
for the tax haven? Ukip's Scottish leader David Coburn | :39:11. | :39:16. | |
contrasts his party with the "tired old establishment parties | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
which spout the same old havers". As he launched its manifesto | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
alongside Nigel Farage in Edinburgh on Thursday, he promised to shake up | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
Holyrood with additional tax bands, a reintroduction of smoking rooms | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
in pubs, a relaxation of airgun licences and revision | :39:34. | :39:35. | |
of the new drink-driving limits. But the party has yet to win | :39:36. | :39:37. | |
a seat in the parliament. Huw Williams has been finding out | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
what Ukip needs to do In the published their Holyrood | :39:41. | :39:58. | |
manifesto on Thursday. They set out their long-term aim to cut income | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
tax, reduced the Scottish Government's budget, raise the | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
drink-drive limit back to the level it falls across the rest of the UK | :40:08. | :40:08. | |
drink-drive limit back to the level and to allow pubs and clubs to bring | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
back smoking rooms. Their leader David Cockburn was born in Glasgow, | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
he worked as an art dealer and a city trader and served in the | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
Territorial Army. He hit the headlines last year when he compared | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
the Scottish Government minister to a convicted terrorist. He apologised | :40:26. | :40:26. | |
and said it was a joke. The polls a convicted terrorist. He apologised | :40:27. | :40:35. | |
suggest the message of Ukip resonates with some Scottish waters. | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
Central to the success of Ukip throughout the UK has been its | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
stance on immigration, the idea that everywhere in the European Union we | :40:42. | :40:45. | |
could have less immigration. Whilst Scotland is not as concerned as | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
England is about immigration, it could be said that this is one thing | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
north of the border that Ukip could hope to score on. | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
It seems the party faced some real problems when it comes to selling | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
the message in Scotland. The difficulty north of the border | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
is that Ukip seems to be seen as an English party and that does not go | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
down well here. It is clear that Scotland is much keener on the | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
meaning inside the European Union than most of England and Wales, and | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
therefore, this is the difficult for Ukip to make progress here. | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
Ukip have never had an MSP elected to serve at Holyrood. The party | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
would point out it is just two years since the reader became Ukip's first | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
elected representative in Scotland when he won a European Parliament | :41:33. | :41:34. | |
receipt. -- seat. David Coburn joins me now. Do you | :41:35. | :41:48. | |
think Nigel Farage will continue as Ukip Leader wish absolutely, we did | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
not have our referendum if it was not for him. | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
This issue that has come up this week, a former Ukip candidate, Jack | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
Newell, he appeared on the front of The Herald. You said you would think | :42:04. | :42:09. | |
about how to react. Have you decided? | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
I did not know what he was up to. I was told that he was wearing the | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
outfit of the clouds and sitting in his bath playing an electric organ. | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
That is not smart. He is a student, he has done something extremely | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
stupid and he did not realise the impact of what he was doing. He | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
should not be doing things like that. When people join the party, | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
they pay their 30 quiet. We do not have a window into their souls or a | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
crystal ball to see what they will do next. If they do something daft, | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
we will have a word and sort it out. You do not have a crystal ball but | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
you know what he has now done. Will you suspend him from the party? | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
That is not for me to tell you, it is for the party's disciplinary | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
committee. Would you like to apologise? | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
I think he has done that. He said, "This is what it chapters | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
for entertainment." If you sit in your back-up naked it | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
their static sampling and organ, that is a silly student and he has | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
done something bad. I am sure he is in Paris. -- bathtub. | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
Let me tell you this constructively as I possibly can. What about the | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
remarks you made about Humza Yousaf? The SNP have been accused of all | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
sorts of things. Accusations have been made against them as they are | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
against all parties. This happens, we cannot control it all. It does | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
not relate to us. Ukip are the most Liberal Party you can possibly | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
imagine, we are Libertarian party. We cannot get more broad-minded than | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
that. A lot of people watching this | :43:57. | :43:58. | |
programme might agree with you on issues like Europe and immigration, | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
but the problem Ukip has always had is that people think, actually, it | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
is not a mainstream party, scratch the surface... | :44:06. | :44:07. | |
The only people that think that the press and they do that because they | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
are part of the establishment and they do not like the fact that we | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
can do well, we will go in and shake up the establishment. They are | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
terrified of that. You do not intend to take any | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
further action? It is not my place to do with this, | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
it is for the disciplinary part of the party. I would not want to do | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
anything to put a case before that. That is not part of my business. | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
You are the only party who has published a manifesto for the | :44:40. | :44:42. | |
Scottish elections. Absolutely. The good thing about it | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
is that the Glasgow Herald had nothing to see how good our | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
manifesto was. So they started to bring this nonsense into it. | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
You want a 30p rate of tax. Yes, for the ?350,000 group. | :44:57. | :45:05. | |
Once George Osborne lowers his tax threshold, are you still suggesting | :45:06. | :45:07. | |
Once George Osborne lowers his tax that you're 30p would be there? | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
This is an aspiration. We will not be in government, we would love to | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
be, but we will not be. I do not think that Scotland should have | :45:17. | :45:20. | |
taxes higher than those in England. That is your... Under your manifesto | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
proposals as they currently stand, some in Scotland would pay more tax | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
than in England on some of their income? Once George Osborne takes | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
the 40p there showed up to 50,000, someone who was earning ?58,000 | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
would pay ?30 under your proposals on some of their income but only 20p | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
in England. We want to broaden it out. That will | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
not be the case. That flatly contradicts almost the | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
first thing you have said in your manifesto. | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
That is our aspiration. That is what we want. | :45:58. | :46:03. | |
Your manifesto states you oppose any suggestions that would result in the | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
income tax being higher than the rest of the UK. | :46:07. | :46:11. | |
That is correct. I do not understand what you are talking about, it is | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
quite clear. What is quite clear is that you | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
would be charging higher tax in Scotland and the rest of the UK. | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
This is what a Ukip government would want to do in the future. We are | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
concerned with the government in London at the moment and we would | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
want in Scotland, and in England, the same thing. We want a medal 30p | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
band rate. That seems sensible to me. But we are not in government and | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
we do not expect to be in government this time around, that is very | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
clear. But we want to be aiming towards this and that seems sensible | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
to me. But what you have just told me is | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
that there would be some people undergo a proposal in Scotland who | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
would pay more income tax than in England. | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
There are always winners and losers but it would be fair across the | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
bans, it is more sensible. Even if people in Scotland end up | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
paying more tax? Some things we have to be a little | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
bit more and sometimes a little bit less. | :47:12. | :47:13. | |
How can I screw that with the statement that I have just read? | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
We have different circumstances at the moment. When we have a Ukip | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
government, that is what we want. That is what we are aiming for, | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
seems clear to me. I do not see how one scorers with | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the other. What realistically did want to achieve in this election? | :47:29. | :47:35. | |
Our objective is to make sure that Scotland has taxes no higher than | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
that of the best of the UK. What I would like to see... Please, let me | :47:39. | :47:46. | |
finish. Jobs, jobs, jobs. We want to create jobs and in Scotland we do | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
not want Scotland to be putting a penny on this and that, that will | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
not help the Scottish economy. How many seeds you think you were | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
one or would you like to win? I would like to break through. | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
According to... Getting an MSP, that would be a | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
victory for do? I am trying to answer your question. | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
From what I can see in the polls, they survey should pull in the | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
e-mail and Andy Daily Record, which is no friend of Ukip, neither are | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
particularly friendly to Ukip, they have said we will get seven seats. | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
That would be nice, very happy to have them, but if we can get any | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
seeds, I would be happy. If you get one MSP, you would say | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
that was a step forward as far as you are concerned? | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
Yes, I would like to get more but it is up to the Scottish people. We | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
will have to wait and see what happens. As I have told you, it | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
looks like seven seats. We have many people coming from the other | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
parties. The Labour Party is imploding in Scotland. Many can | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
never stomach voting for the Conservatives. As for the Scottish | :48:56. | :49:01. | |
national scum are many are frightened as to what is happening | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
in Europe. They have seen what happens to smaller countries in | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
Europe if they do not agree with the European Union. Austerity and | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
suchlike. Greece was forced to be... Are you standing in any of the | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
constituencies? No, we are not. We are trying to get | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
everyone to vote for us on the list. So you are pitching to people... Who | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
should they vote for? They should vote for Ukip and they | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
should put as much fought in there as possible. | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
So they should vote for you even though you are not putting up any | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
candidates? I did not suggest that. I believe we | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
will not win many seeds in the first past the post. It is a tactical | :49:47. | :49:48. | |
decision. Who should the rest vote for? | :49:49. | :49:59. | |
That is up to them. On the list, I want is to get first preference or | :50:00. | :50:02. | |
many people's second preference. That would be fine. I think we are | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
getting a lot of second preference votes, not only from Labour voters | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
but the SNP and disgruntled conservatives who are opposed to the | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
European Union. I know you have been very busy | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
campaigning, have you had time to buy a new toaster? You said your old | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
one in the European Union, you could not get brown toast. | :50:24. | :50:31. | |
Yes, my toast is not good. The coasters have less power in them. | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
When I made that thing, they came out and said that they had a plan | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
but they would not bring it in. They have postponed until after the | :50:41. | :50:46. | |
referendum. How interesting is that? Let me give you a tip, go shopping, | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
I think you will find a toaster that will be suitable. | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
I will do that, Gordon, since we have spent so much time together. | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
Thank you, David Coburn. Thank you. | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
The Scottish Greens will head to the polls for its fifth Holyrood | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
election, fielding candidates in all eight regions. | :51:08. | :51:09. | |
The party received a significant boost following the independent | :51:10. | :51:11. | |
referendum in September and now boasts over 9,000 members. | :51:12. | :51:13. | |
It confidently predicts that it can push the parliament to be bolder, | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
and is hoping to improve upon the two MSPs that sat | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
Huw Williams has been assessing their chances. | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
The Scottish Greens publish their Holyrood manifesto this | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
The Scottish Greens publish their Patrick Harvie said when he joined | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
the party in 2000 they had around 500 members. Membership is now | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
around 9000. He is from Dumbarton and disgrace himself as a fan of | :51:39. | :51:40. | |
real ale, real food, science fiction and disgrace himself as a fan of | :51:41. | :51:47. | |
and free software. He wants a ban on fracking and it switch away from | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
fossil fuels. There is no doubt that the broad | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
Green idea that we need to look after the environment, we should be | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
concerned about climate change, and we should be changing energy | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
production Scotland towards renewables, in principle at least, | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
is something that is pretty widespread, at least not of the | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
border. But polls suggest voters may not be | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
so keen on those ideas if they mean inconvenience or cost more. | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
There is a problem with principle to practice, particularly whether or | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
not it means we may have to pay more or do less of what we like in order | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
to help the environment. Asking us to use our cars less, to pay to go | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
into cities or indeed pay more on petrol, at that point, it becomes | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
rather more difficult to persuade people to change. | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
Key catchphrases in the Green us campaign will be the call for | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
Holyrood to be bolder and for Scotland to achieve more. They can | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
party, under Patrick Harvie's leadership, really did better than | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
2003, when a record number of seven Green MSPs were elected. | :53:00. | :53:01. | |
of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie. | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
I enjoyed that image of my freshfaced youth there! | :53:07. | :53:14. | |
OK! Let's start with tax. You want a 60p rate. The SNP say they can't | :53:15. | :53:19. | |
raise tax take even a 50p for people who are more than ?150,000. They say | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
that because partly because people will leave the country, and partly | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
because people will choose to pay their tax in different ways. | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
Why do you think they're wrong? It's clear they do have the ability. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
The Scottish Government, the next Scottish Government under the new | :53:39. | :53:41. | |
Scotland act will have the ability to set those bands. They are talking | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
about tax competition, that they simply have to offer high income | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
people the lowest tax environment, otherwise they will disappear. I | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
just don't buy that argument that the majority of people, even in that | :53:55. | :54:01. | |
hire additional tax band by the type of selfish individuals who would | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
operate their family and disappear- presumably not taking their current | :54:06. | :54:06. | |
operate their family and disappear- job with them but going to another | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
job elsewhere- simply because they wish to avoid more attacks on the | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
highest element of their income. Remember, we are talking what they | :54:16. | :54:19. | |
earn over and above ?150,000. So these are people who are very | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
wealthy, I think it is quite reasonable that they pay a bit more. | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
But don't the SNP have a point when they say that people want just | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
leave, there are things you can do. You can choose to take your taxes | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
capital gains tax. There was the chap involved in private equity who | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
said he pays less tax and is cleaner. That is not what they were | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
doing, taking capital gains and pink capital gains tax, which is lower | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
than high-street income tax, and this is the point the SNP may, not | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
under the control of the Scottish Government. And secondly you can | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
take tax on dividends from shares, which is lower than the highest rate | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
of income tax. And also, as the SNP say, it is not under the control of | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
Scottish Government. They have a point? There are | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
certainly opportunities that high income or high wealth people who are | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
motivated purely by greed, and I again say, I think that is the | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
minority. There are opportunities that some of them have two hide tax | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
and hide their income or pay in a different way through a shell | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
company or what have you. They themselves so they are working for a | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
company they in fact owner. This is a problem for every country, not | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
just for Scotland. Not just for Scotland gaining tax powers within | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
the UK. Not just for the UK, it is a problem for every country. There is | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
a great deal we have to do to stigmatise that sort of behaviour | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
and make it less possible. There are always can do that, for example in | :55:49. | :55:51. | |
the public sector, where public sector high-paid jobs, some of which | :55:52. | :55:53. | |
I would like to see brought within a sector high-paid jobs, some of which | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
reasonable pay ratio, but as long as they exist we can make it clear that | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
public sector employers will not they exist we can make it clear that | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
cooperate with those activities. The Scottish Government as well has | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
business support services, grants and loans and services that it | :56:09. | :56:16. | |
provides with tax payers' money. Employers can not participate in a | :56:17. | :56:18. | |
moral... See you think the SNP just like the | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
courage of their convictions? I think that surprised many people | :56:23. | :56:25. | |
that they are not put forward a radical, progressive approach to | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
taxation. We're not just talking about the 60p rate, it is really | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
important to remember the Green proposals are talking about the | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
average income and salary. Anyone paying the average would pay less | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
underarm proposals. And that is what? ?26,000. Under | :56:44. | :56:52. | |
proposals if you're of a lack to be paying about ?2 per month more in | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
tax. Someone on, for example, and MS people's salary with the paying | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
more. MSPs earn a lot more than that. The funds in public services | :57:04. | :57:12. | |
should close the gap. We are going to continue to see an credible | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
social and economic costs that we do not deserve to bear in the society. | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
Young people who want see the opportunities that will be created | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
in new sustainable industries in Scotland. | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
Housing that needs to be built. If you're going to put tax up for | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
Housing that needs to be built. If everyone who wants more than the | :57:31. | :57:32. | |
average, what do you want the money for? | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
It's very clear that there are macro cuts coming to our public services | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
as a result of the UK Government. A Scottish Government in the next | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
session will have the powers to reverse those cuts any fear, | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
progressive way. More specifically, what do you want | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
to spend more money on? Local services that a great many | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
people depend upon. Care services where we have seen people | :57:58. | :57:59. | |
historically underpaid for care work. Whether that is paid care in | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
local authorities or the third sector, or the carer's allowance for | :58:04. | :58:08. | |
unpaid carers who deserve some sort of recompense. We would like to see | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
that increased by 50%. There are opportunities to invest in the | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
education of young people need. How much will you tax increases | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
raise? The income tax proposals we have | :58:22. | :58:29. | |
proposed will raise ?231 million. We are making it clear that the | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
proposals were making our about local council setting the rate. If | :58:34. | :58:41. | |
councils set it at 7p on the pounds, it would raise about the same as | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
council tax. This is to protect public services and invest in the | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
homes, jobs and services that our country needs. We have a critical | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
decision to make- do we want to continue this race to the bottom, | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
not just in taxation, but in the quality of our public services and | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
investment in our economy. A lot of people watching this will | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
save this sounds just like what Labour say. It is just | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
tax-and-spend. It's not that you have any ideas for raising tax and | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
doing anything innovative original, you just want to spend money? | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
We have set very clearly ways of raising revenue and ways we think it | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
can be done fairly. We've also set out a report on how Scotland needs | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
to invest in jobs which will replace those industries which do not have | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
an infinite life ahead of them. We've been arguing for a transition | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
away from fossil fuels. We have also been arguing in the long-term and | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
short-term this can be good for people's wallets. Wasting less money | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
on energy that is going out the window. | :59:47. | :59:49. | |
Anyone who is paid more than the average will be paying more income | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
tax. Presumably, you would like them to pay more tax on fuel as well? | :59:54. | :59:58. | |
Yet we're all going to be better off? Fuel duty is being devolved, -- | :59:59. | :00:06. | |
not being devolved, some are not quick to set out... Public transport | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
is always the better option. You see the type of countries that get | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
public transport and walking and cycling infrastructure right, they | :00:17. | :00:18. | |
have world-class services because they know they need to invest and | :00:19. | :00:22. | |
protect that investment. Some of them so have their own book we owned | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
railway companies. One of them, they're publicly owned railway is | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
running one of our Railways! I don't see why we can't have a publicly | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
owned railway we can invest in. And all these countries you mention | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
are economically doing less well this moment than the United Kingdom. | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
Depends what you mean by less well. Greens have always argued we | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
shouldn't just judge a record in terms of GDP. GDP doesn't tell you | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
in whose interest the money is working. I economy is doing terribly | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
at protecting the well being of those for now register being | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
dependent on foodbanks. I think our economy is doing terribly at | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
protecting the well being of those who are in industries which are | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
coming to the end of their lives, and we're not investing in the | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
alternatives. I was doing terribly at having a | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
much lower rate of unemployment than countries like France and Spain? | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
When George Osborne talks about a low rate of unemployment, he is | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
looking great people who are in precarious unemployment, people in | :01:25. | :01:26. | |
zero hours contracts. Hang on, if I was... I think it is | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
about 50% of young people and Spain who are unemployed and can't find a | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
job. I think I would say, precarious employment sounds absolutely | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
wonderful, can we have some of that year? | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
Spain has been subject to even more brutal austerity economic son this | :01:47. | :01:48. | |
country. That is not a defence of austerity. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
What are your goals for this election? | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
Hammy seats would you like to win? I think this is the most realistic | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
chance we have had of getting an MSP in each one of Scotland's regions. | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
There are eight regions, I think we can get more than one in some | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
regions. If in that ballpark, we are potentially approaching double | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
figures. For the first time with have an MSP representing every voter | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
in Scotland. The regional vote in every part of the Scotland can elect | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
eight Green MSP. I want to get a sense from all party | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
leaders - you think it would be a failure if you get less eight MSPs? | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
Fewer than eight, I should say. If we went from two MSPs to seven, I | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
wouldn't say that was a failure. I would be disappointed about the one | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
region we don't have an MSDN, and redouble a reference to get that one | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
next time. What is the maxim in you could get? | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
I'm log in to set a maximum limit on aspirations. I would like us Green | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
MSP in every region. I would like voters to think,... Labour needs to | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
be -- SNP need to be put under pressure on issues like fracking, | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
land reform, rent control. We put them under pressure and constructive | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
pressure. Not just saying everything they do is terrible, but getting | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
results by the way we engage with the Scottish Parliament and the | :03:23. | :03:23. | |
Scottish Government. Thank you. If you meet David Coburn | :03:24. | :03:29. | |
on the way out, you could take on shopping freighters do. | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
I think that's unlikely. The Prime Minister has published | :03:32. | :03:33. | |
details about his income and tax payments to try to defuse a row | :03:34. | :03:35. | |
about his financial affairs. The figures cover | :03:36. | :03:38. | |
the past six years. headlines after documents - | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
leaked from a law firm in Panama - showed that his late father set | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
up an offshore trust. He later disclosed that he'd | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
profited from selling Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
that he'd taken too long to give Although he pays all the taxes that | :03:50. | :04:03. | |
were due, David Cameron is facing accusations from labour that he | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
misled the public about his personal involvement in his late father's | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
offshore fund. He came under pressure to tackle money-laundering | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
and tax evasion. It's not about the individual or one | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
person, it is about a whole ethos where the very rich are able to put | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
their money into tax havens, offshore accounts, whether it often | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
easy rate of income tax. Sometimes also a zero rate of corporate or | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
capital gains tax. That untaxed money does not contribute anything | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
to the public services of the people of the country they come from. | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
Yesterday, protesters gathered outside the Conservative spring | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
Forum, at a venue in central London. They demanded the Prime Minister | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
handed in his resignation. There is no suggestion that Mr | :04:54. | :04:55. | |
Cameron has done anything illegal, There is no suggestion that Mr | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
but he admits he mishandled the questions about his family's tax | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
affairs. I know that I should have handled | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
this bettered. I could have handled this better. I know there are | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
lessons to learn, and I will learn them. I don't blame -- and don't | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
blame ten Downing St on Amis advisers, blame me. | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
David Cameron has also revealed that a new task force will investigate | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
accusations of money-laundering in the Panama Papers. But will that be | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
enough to silence critics? While politicians have | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
been making capital - if you'll forgive the pun - | :05:37. | :05:38. | |
out of the Prime Minister's personal situation - | :05:39. | :05:41. | |
there are wider questions around The huge leak of documents | :05:42. | :05:43. | |
from the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca has revealed how tax | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
havens are used to hide wealth. Critics question the ethics | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
of the rich in avoidance of paying income tax, | :05:50. | :05:51. | |
corporation tax and capital gains. On the other side, some finance | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
experts point to legitimate reasons for the financial arrangements | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
and emphasise that most of those who invest in them | :05:57. | :05:58. | |
are not breaking the law. I'm joined now by the Telegraph | :05:59. | :06:00. | |
columnist Juliet Samuel, who's in our London studio, | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
and by the financial First, Juliet Samuel, a lot of | :06:04. | :06:15. | |
people will look at these offshore tax havens and think, this all | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
smells bad, but are there are legitimate reasons, do you believe, | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
that companies could be registered there or that individuals could want | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
to keep their money there? There are certainly legitimate | :06:32. | :06:33. | |
reasons for being registered on the offshore companies to do business. | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
Some reasons include that you want to invest in a developing country | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
who are going on sure they could expose you to political risk or | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
corruption. So you might want to register offshore in order to make | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
your investment less of a rest. Or it might be easier... I mean, there | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
are many funds such as the one that Mr Cameron was invested in which our | :06:59. | :07:06. | |
registered offshore but which are not avoiding UK tax but which are | :07:07. | :07:08. | |
registered offshore because these offshore centres are more efficient | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
and quick and cheap at setting up forms and make it easier for | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
international investors for area by Mike due restrictions to invest into | :07:18. | :07:18. | |
them. You have to efficient, that is a | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
word that will make people suspicious. Investment trusts, you | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
are trading on the stock exchange, you can buy them, they are traded on | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
the London Stock Exchange, why would someone want to set up an investment | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
trust that is based on a tax haven? In some cases, it is so that | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
international investors who are not UK investors, do not activate the | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
entire UK tax by investing in a foreign company in the UK. A lot of | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
farms will be attracting investors from the Middle East, the US, all | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
around Europe, and if you had a fund set up in the UK, it is much more | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
difficult to ensure that investors do not accidentally incur tax and | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
that they actually do not have to pay. So that could be one reason. | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
Another reason, for example, in Ireland, it is just much faster to | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
set up a fund, there is more expertise there to set them up. | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
There is a whole industry which has been built around doing so, it takes | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
half the time in some offshore centres to set up a fund than it | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
does in the UK. Did you agree, Ian Fraser, are there | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
legitimate reasons for having these things? | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
Yes, and Juliet Samuel has outlined some of those. The trouble however | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
is that they all offshore world which includes lawyers, company | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
formation agents, using which includes lawyers, company | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
jurisdictions like the Cayman Islands, Panama etc, it has been | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
totally corrupted, so even though there are legitimate businesses | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
including asset management companies using it, a lot of other companies | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
are money launderers, gangsters, drug runners, sorry drug barons and | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
so on. Deposed dictators who want to hide their cash a week without the | :09:10. | :09:11. | |
authorities in their native countries knowing where the money | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
is. Is it in principle possible to | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
separate? Let us pretend I was a multinational company and that I had | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
a legitimate reason, I wanted to aggravate payments from around the | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
world and I wanted to take them back to America and pay the taxes that I | :09:28. | :09:33. | |
will. Is there anyway that I can do that without being tainted with what | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
you have just described? I think there are remains reasons | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
for that but it is more likely that you would be kind deed and put in | :09:41. | :09:43. | |
the same kind of bracket as the abusers of the offshore system. I | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
agree with the likes of Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. I agree | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
with Thomas Docherty, the French economist, that this is something | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
that is actually harming the financial system. It is making our | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
financial system more precarious, it is encouraging international crime. | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
It is encouraging the looting of third World countries. These tax | :10:07. | :10:09. | |
havens ought to be shut down. That is my view. | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
What do you make of that, Juliet Samuel? After the financial crisis, | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
there was an argument, was there not, similar to that, that there | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
were entire areas of finance that were very obscure and people could | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
not understand. People said they should be shut down, there is no | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
reason to have them and the world would not be a worse place for not | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
having them. Ironically, a lot of those things | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
that were shot down, politicians are now trying to restart. And that is | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
because some of them did have economic benefits such as a form of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
security. I agreed with Ian Fraser up until he said we should shut them | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
all down. There are certainly many criminals who are using offshore | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
havens in order to avoid breaking reasonable and fair laws and onshore | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
places. But the idea that we can or should just shut them down, I do not | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
even know what that would mean. Many of these offshore jurisdictions are | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
foreign countries. We can put some of them on blacklists as we have | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
done, that that does not involve shutting them down. What we should | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
be doing and in fact, what the shutting them down. What we should | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
government has been doing, or they are trying to do, is to put pressure | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
on them to improve the regulations because they be that you would make | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
on them to improve the regulations it harder for criminals to use these | :11:31. | :11:32. | |
jurisdictions is to force them to register their information and | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
forced jurisdictions to collect that information and make it available to | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
authorities in other countries as they have a good reason. That is | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
something that is happening slowly under pressure, but shutting them | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
down is not an option. The trouble is they are resisting | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
it, but at the British Virgin Islands, for example, there was a | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
massive leak in 2013 secret information involving a lot of | :12:02. | :12:02. | |
massive leak in 2013 secret criminal abuse of tax havens there. | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
But they did not respond by tiding up their act, they did not try to be | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
more transparent. The Labour Party has suggested we | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
could take direct control of some of these jurisdictions that have | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
British territories. The problem not that there are lots of add-ons and | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
small independent countries around the world which could take up the | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
slack? So unless there was pretty much unanimous international | :12:25. | :12:26. | |
agreement to blacklist these countries, that wherever you shut | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
one down, another will pop up elsewhere? | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
That is a danger, there is a new one of the coast of New Zealand in the | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
Pacific. It was established by Mossack Fonseca as a tax haven. A | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
secret jurisdiction. There is always that risk. Basically, the British | :12:46. | :12:48. | |
government has been pussyfooting around this issue for the last six | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
years and it was doing virtually nothing in the previous period | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
years and it was doing virtually either. They need to shape up their | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
act, they have to address this. Surely this has to be an | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
international issue? No matter what the British government does, if | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
another government of a big country does not do it, I can just shut my | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
money there and throw that into the tax haven. | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
International law is actually necessary, definitely. Without that | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
it would be very difficult. Briefly, Juliet Samuel, is that | :13:23. | :13:24. | |
it would be very difficult. realistic, that we can do something? | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
Yes, and actually, the government have tried to do that and read it at | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
the G8. If you had corporation it would be harder for offshore centres | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
to simply carry on without enforcing regulations, some of which are | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
already on the books. OK, we will have to leave it there. | :13:41. | :13:44. | |
Ian Fraser and Juliet Samuel, from London, thank you both very much | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
indeed for joining us. I'll be back at the | :13:47. | :13:47. | |
same time next week. | :13:48. | :13:52. |