17/04/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


17/04/2016

Presented by Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer. Featuring discussion and debate on the EU referendum with Tristram Hunt, Liam Fox and US State Department spokesman Jamie Rubin.


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David Cameron thinks we'll be stronger, safer

:00:38.:00:42.

Leave campaigners say the real risk would be a vote to remain.

:00:43.:00:48.

So what are the dangers if we decide to stay?

:00:49.:00:52.

On his final presidential visit to the UK, Barack Obama

:00:53.:00:56.

will back the idea of Britain remaining in the EU.

:00:57.:00:59.

But is the leader of the free world right to wade into our debate?

:01:00.:01:03.

And before the referendum, there's the small matter

:01:04.:01:06.

of national and local elections right across the UK.

:01:07.:01:09.

And coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:10.:01:13.

We continue our series of interviews with the Scottish party leaders.

:01:14.:01:16.

by the Lib Dems' Willie Rennie and by the Scottish

:01:17.:01:20.

we hear from mayoral hopefuls Sian Berry of the Greens

:01:21.:01:27.

And with me, as always, our panel of the best and brightest

:01:28.:01:35.

political brains in the business, Nick Watt, Isabel Oakeshott

:01:36.:01:37.

Now, the referendum isn't the only vote looming on the horizon.

:01:38.:01:48.

Before the EU vote on June 23rd, voters across the UK will get

:01:49.:01:51.

a chance to cast their ballot in a range of elections

:01:52.:01:54.

There are seven sets of elections happening in May,

:01:55.:01:58.

all of which will take place on the same day,

:01:59.:02:00.

Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland will hold national elections.

:02:01.:02:05.

There are 60 seats up for grabs in the Welsh Assembly.

:02:06.:02:09.

The Scottish Parliament, in which the SNP has held

:02:10.:02:12.

a majority since 2011, will elect 129 members,

:02:13.:02:17.

and in Northern Ireland, there are 108 seats that will be

:02:18.:02:20.

decided for representatives to the assembly at Stormont.

:02:21.:02:27.

124 councils have seats up for election.

:02:28.:02:31.

35 metropolitan councils, 19 unitary authorities

:02:32.:02:33.

and 70 district councils, and four cities in England

:02:34.:02:36.

will elect mayors, London, Bristol, Liverpool and Salford.

:02:37.:02:59.

Londoners will also elect members to the London Assembly

:03:00.:03:02.

Finally, voters in 41 police force areas in England and Wales

:03:03.:03:05.

will elect a Police And Crime Commissioner.

:03:06.:03:07.

Joining me now from Glasgow is our election guru,

:03:08.:03:09.

Professor John Curtice of Strathclyde University.

:03:10.:03:10.

Let's start with the local elections in England. How should we judge the

:03:11.:03:14.

performance of Jeremy Corbyn's Labour Party in these elections? We

:03:15.:03:18.

have to appreciate that the seats up for grabs on me the these elections

:03:19.:03:26.

were for the most part fought for three year is ago. We are looking at

:03:27.:03:32.

the time of George Osborne's so-called a shambles budget when

:03:33.:03:35.

support for the Conservatives fell away. These were the only set of

:03:36.:03:40.

elections during the last parliament where the Labour Party began to put

:03:41.:03:43.

in a performance where you might have thought they would have been

:03:44.:03:46.

capable of winning the next election. Jeremy Corbyn's

:03:47.:03:52.

misfortune, he is defending not a brilliant baseline, but a relatively

:03:53.:03:57.

good one. Labour six or seven points ahead, as judged by their share of

:03:58.:04:02.

the vote. The truth is that Jeremy Corbyn is not 67 points ahead. In

:04:03.:04:07.

contrast to what we might have expected a few weeks ago, he is no

:04:08.:04:13.

longer 67 points behind. Labour and the Conservatives seem to be quite

:04:14.:04:17.

close to each other. That means that in practice Mr Corbyn may well be

:04:18.:04:23.

facing losses. The figure of 150 has been bandied around. Will that be

:04:24.:04:27.

good? Better than it might have been a few weeks ago. Is it the sort of

:04:28.:04:32.

performance to persuade you that the Labour Party is on course to win the

:04:33.:04:39.

general election? Certainly not. Is the biggest threat that they would

:04:40.:04:43.

lose London, and would that be unlikely? I agree it would be

:04:44.:04:48.

unlikely. If they were to fail to win the London mayoral election,

:04:49.:04:53.

that would be a serious reverse for Labour. Back in 2012, although Boris

:04:54.:05:00.

Johnson on the London mayoral election, Labour was clearly ahead

:05:01.:05:05.

in the parallel election. Neither Sadiq Khan, the Labour candidate,

:05:06.:05:11.

Northside Goldsmith, the concerted of the -- the Conservative

:05:12.:05:16.

candidate, has the same kind of attractiveness to the public. Labour

:05:17.:05:19.

did relatively well in London 12 months ago. If David Cameron were

:05:20.:05:26.

not to win that election, Labour would have questions to ask itself.

:05:27.:05:34.

Could Labour even come third behind the Scottish Tories? The answer is

:05:35.:05:39.

that they could. There is another opinion poll lead this morning that

:05:40.:05:42.

put Labour on the Conservatives neck and neck with each other. Some

:05:43.:05:50.

opinion polls put Labour and the Conservatives together, but not by

:05:51.:05:54.

much. Labour neglect the heading for a very bad performance. It would be

:05:55.:05:58.

the worst result in any election since 1918. I do not think it will

:05:59.:06:04.

tell you much about Jeremy Corbyn and his popularity. We have to

:06:05.:06:07.

remember that what happens in Scotland is very distinct and

:06:08.:06:09.

separate from what happens in the rest of the UK. The election in

:06:10.:06:15.

Scotland is going to be, primarily, framed by people's views about

:06:16.:06:21.

independence. The truth is the overall majority of people that

:06:22.:06:25.

voted for independence are still determined to vote for the SNP. So

:06:26.:06:29.

long as that remains the case, Labour will struggle another the

:06:30.:06:34.

border. It has to do with Scottish politics and little to do with what

:06:35.:06:37.

is happening in the rest of the UK. Is there really a Ukip surge in

:06:38.:06:43.

Wales? The opinion polls suggest that Ukip are doing well in Wales.

:06:44.:06:48.

But that is roughly where the opinion polls are putting Ukip

:06:49.:06:53.

across the UK as a whole. In Wales, as in Scotland, and the London

:06:54.:06:57.

assembly elections, the elections are being held by proportional

:06:58.:07:05.

representation, not first past the post, so if Ukip can get the 15%

:07:06.:07:08.

that the opinion polls suggest that the might get, they will get

:07:09.:07:10.

significant representation in the Welsh assembly. Getting Ukip grade

:07:11.:07:14.

is one of the things in which the opinion polls tend to disagree with

:07:15.:07:19.

each other. Ukip will perhaps not do as well as that, they will get some

:07:20.:07:23.

seats, but perhaps not as well as the parties hoping. Northern

:07:24.:07:30.

Ireland, and the executive almost collapsed there last year. Will the

:07:31.:07:34.

turmoil at Stormont, is it likely expected to change people's voting

:07:35.:07:40.

patterns this time? We not expecting a vast in Northern Ireland. Not only

:07:41.:07:46.

is the assembly elected proportionally, but so is the

:07:47.:07:55.

elected -- the executive. The larger of the two Unionist parties and the

:07:56.:07:58.

Nationalist parties might not be quite as strong as last time. No one

:07:59.:08:02.

is expecting very much in way of a major change. Thank you for joining

:08:03.:08:07.

us. Nick Watt, let me come to you. These elections are widely being

:08:08.:08:12.

seen as Mr Corbyn's first serious test. What a Labour's real

:08:13.:08:17.

expectations? The expectation is there going to do badly in Scotland.

:08:18.:08:22.

That is in. They will do badly in Wales but the expecting that. They

:08:23.:08:27.

will not admit that they could do very badly in the English local

:08:28.:08:31.

elections, and that they could lose seats. If the Labour Party lost

:08:32.:08:35.

seats in the local elections, it would be the first time since 1985

:08:36.:08:39.

that an opposition party had suffered losses in local elections

:08:40.:08:44.

in a non-general election year. It would be woolly bad. What did is

:08:45.:08:49.

down two at the end of the day, I know we should not wish think about

:08:50.:08:54.

London, a great picture of Glasgow behind John Curtice, but it is down

:08:55.:08:59.

to London. Jeremy Corbyn needs one victory and he looks like he will

:09:00.:09:04.

get one, Sadiq Khan in London. That will probably enough. He can do

:09:05.:09:08.

badly everywhere else but as long as he holds onto London years save? I

:09:09.:09:14.

think because the others are just priced in. If he can be seen to

:09:15.:09:19.

notch up one victory, it is a bit like the old and Royston by-election

:09:20.:09:23.

at the end of last year. Everyone assumes that they will do badly.

:09:24.:09:29.

They did well, it stabilises the leadership. He would probably be

:09:30.:09:33.

safe even if you lost London? I think he would be. Those who would

:09:34.:09:38.

like to see the back of have the difficulty that essentially his

:09:39.:09:40.

supporters control the party membership. It is an interesting

:09:41.:09:45.

question, how this is going to be judged. I spoke to one of Jeremy

:09:46.:09:50.

Corbyn's critics within the parliamentary party this morning and

:09:51.:09:54.

was surprised how upbeat he sounded. He said, I think we might put on a

:09:55.:09:59.

couple of hundred seats. This is a terrible time for the Tory

:10:00.:10:04.

leadership. I came off the phone and thought, this is about expectation

:10:05.:10:08.

management. This is the critics of Jeremy Corbyn saying that we should

:10:09.:10:14.

put on a few hundred seats. When they do not, they will see it as a

:10:15.:10:18.

disaster. The setting him up to fail. The Tories are expected to do

:10:19.:10:23.

quite well in these elections, even in Wales. We have had the budget,

:10:24.:10:28.

the Panama Papers, the steel crisis, the split over the referendum. It

:10:29.:10:32.

has got to take its toll on the Tories? It has in the opinion polls,

:10:33.:10:39.

which are Sean at the minimum of the Tory lead, narrowing, and in some

:10:40.:10:43.

cases Labour pulling ahead. I suspect some Tories would not mind

:10:44.:10:48.

doing badly in the local elections in England if it relieves the

:10:49.:10:53.

pressure on Jeremy Corbyn, who they want in place over the next four

:10:54.:10:56.

years and contesting the 2020 general election. Even if Labour do

:10:57.:11:03.

badly in Scotland, Jeremy Corbyn owes a debt to Sadiq Khan, because

:11:04.:11:08.

his likely but not certain victory in London, judging by the opinion

:11:09.:11:12.

polls, will attract more attention than elections everywhere, not

:11:13.:11:17.

before it deserves -- not because it deserves to, but because the media

:11:18.:11:24.

has a slight skew towards London. It is a slightly sexier office. It will

:11:25.:11:27.

drown out any underperformance that Labour have in the rest of the

:11:28.:11:32.

country. Is it too cynical to say that some Tories will not be too

:11:33.:11:36.

upset if they do not win London because Mr Corbyn will then be

:11:37.:11:40.

secure? I do not think that is cynical. That is absolutely the

:11:41.:11:47.

case. Janan is right. There will be lots of post-analysis about how the

:11:48.:11:52.

billionaire's son, Zac Goldsmith, lost the election. It is interesting

:11:53.:11:56.

that the people who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn in the Labour

:11:57.:11:59.

Party, the window they are talking about is not after the local

:12:00.:12:04.

elections, but after the referendum at the end of June. We might be

:12:05.:12:08.

focused on the Conservatives by then. I think the troubles of the

:12:09.:12:09.

Tory party will take the focus then. So the referendum

:12:10.:12:16.

campaign has begun. The official campaign groups have

:12:17.:12:18.

been designated and the arguments The Prime Minister says we'll be

:12:19.:12:20.

stronger, safer, and better off in. And a vote to leave,

:12:21.:12:25.

says to Mr Cameron, But it won't have escaped your

:12:26.:12:27.

attention that the EU is also facing challenges,

:12:28.:12:33.

a migration crisis, economic So, if we do decide to remain,

:12:34.:12:36.

what are the risks ahead of us? For some, the consequences of this

:12:37.:12:41.

EU referendum are crystal clear. For the rest of us,

:12:42.:12:53.

it is difficult to see the future after June the 23rd,

:12:54.:12:56.

hard to predict. Of course, the politicians claim

:12:57.:12:57.

to know our fortunes. This cannot be described as anything

:12:58.:13:03.

other than risk, uncertainty, We have clearly elevated Brexit

:13:04.:13:05.

as one of the serious downside risks I firmly believe that leaving the EU

:13:06.:13:15.

would leave our country less secure. This lot, Vote Leave,

:13:16.:13:21.

call it Project Fear. They say the other side is trying

:13:22.:13:24.

to scare people into thinking that Instead they say that

:13:25.:13:27.

the uncertainty is staying in. What will the EU look like in five,

:13:28.:13:33.

ten, 15 years? For me, it would be an outdated

:13:34.:13:39.

bloc, something that was created in the last century,

:13:40.:13:42.

something that can neither control It has been foretold that migration

:13:43.:13:46.

will be one of the dominant David Cameron insists his negotiated

:13:47.:13:53.

emergency brake on migrants' in work benefits as well as changes to child

:13:54.:14:00.

benefits will discourage EU migration, but some experts say it

:14:01.:14:03.

will have little impact. Figures from the Migration

:14:04.:14:09.

Observatory this week suggest that continuing economic instability

:14:10.:14:12.

in the Eurozone is encouraging an increasing number of southern

:14:13.:14:17.

European migrants to head to the UK Looking forward, it is very

:14:18.:14:20.

difficult to know It is possible that if the gap

:14:21.:14:24.

in economic performance between the UK and other

:14:25.:14:29.

countries, for example, Italy, Portugal and Spain,

:14:30.:14:31.

remains significant, there could be quite a pull factor

:14:32.:14:35.

for some time. It is also possible if there is more

:14:36.:14:38.

economic convergence that we could see the numbers

:14:39.:14:40.

start to fall. Much has also been made this week

:14:41.:14:43.

about the risk to both the British and the global economy if Britain

:14:44.:14:47.

voted to leave the EU, In the single market we trade freely

:14:48.:14:50.

right across Europe and we have a say in making

:14:51.:14:54.

the rules across the Continent. If we leave, we give

:14:55.:14:58.

all of that up with no idea The real economic risks are for

:14:59.:15:01.

staying in the European Union. We might find ourselves on the hook

:15:02.:15:07.

for bailouts for countries that are having difficulty staying

:15:08.:15:12.

in the euro in the future. We might find that our rebate comes

:15:13.:15:14.

under assault in the future, we might find that the amount

:15:15.:15:18.

of money overall that we have to give the European Union

:15:19.:15:21.

goes up and up and up. A few weeks ago, the Governor

:15:22.:15:26.

of the Bank of England said that leaving the EU was the biggest

:15:27.:15:29.

domestic risk to Membership of the European Union

:15:30.:15:31.

brings risks as well, and the principal risk,

:15:32.:15:36.

risks I should say, because there are more than one,

:15:37.:15:38.

are associated with the unfinished On the issue of whether our laws

:15:39.:15:40.

are made in Westminster or Brussels, for those wanting to leave the EU,

:15:41.:15:53.

a vote to remain would mean handing Fewer and fewer things over

:15:54.:15:56.

which we have the authority Fewer and fewer of our decisions can

:15:57.:15:59.

be upheld in British courts And I also know that fewer and fewer

:16:00.:16:03.

decisions will be made on European Union level

:16:04.:16:13.

which will be in British interests. And yet one former minister told me

:16:14.:16:16.

that pooling some decision-making The truth is that if you enter

:16:17.:16:19.

into any international agreement, then you may agree that those

:16:20.:16:26.

decisions should be Our Nato membership involves exactly

:16:27.:16:28.

the same kind of arrangement. We allow Nato to take a decision

:16:29.:16:32.

for our collective strength. Both sides seemed to agree a vote

:16:33.:16:34.

to remain is not a vote Those who want to stay

:16:35.:16:49.

in are confident, at least publicly, that the renegotiation will change

:16:50.:16:54.

for the better our relationship Those who want out say that

:16:55.:16:57.

relationship will only get worse. Quite how persuasive

:16:58.:17:01.

those two visions are, I predict we will find out

:17:02.:17:02.

on June the 24th. Joining me now is Labour MP

:17:03.:17:14.

Tristram Hunt, he was a member of the Shadow Cabinet

:17:15.:17:16.

under Ed Miliband. He is now campaigning for Britain

:17:17.:17:19.

to remain in the EU. Do you accept, let's look at some of

:17:20.:17:30.

the risks that could be associated with remaining, start with

:17:31.:17:32.

immigration. Do you accept that as long as we remain in the EU we have

:17:33.:17:36.

no real control of the numbers coming to our country? The European

:17:37.:17:42.

Union is not perfect and it is quite right to have this debate about how

:17:43.:17:46.

we reform Europe in the future. When it comes to our borders, we check

:17:47.:17:52.

who comes in. There will remain passport controls but we have to

:17:53.:17:56.

make sure that we explain to people that if we left Europe but still

:17:57.:18:00.

wanted to trade with the single market, we would also have to have

:18:01.:18:05.

the free movement of people just as Norway and Switzerland does. But in

:18:06.:18:09.

the long run I think there is an interesting question about the

:18:10.:18:12.

degree of free movement of people across the European Union. My point

:18:13.:18:17.

is that Britain should be a part of that conversation. We should be

:18:18.:18:20.

involved in that reform and change and if we are not at the table than

:18:21.:18:25.

our voice won't be heard. The numbers would seem to be beyond our

:18:26.:18:29.

control because that's the price of membership. Over the past five years

:18:30.:18:33.

the number of EU nationals living in the UK has risen by 700,000, it is

:18:34.:18:40.

now 3.3 million, it has doubled in ten years. As long as we remain in

:18:41.:18:57.

the EU it is surely a risk that at least another 700,000 could come in

:18:58.:19:01.

the next five years, it could be even more. Or it could be markedly

:19:02.:19:04.

less. If we go back to a time when the British economy was worse in the

:19:05.:19:07.

1980s, we saw large numbers of people going abroad to work in the

:19:08.:19:10.

European Union. We are taking a snapshot at the moment and the point

:19:11.:19:12.

about pooling risk across the single market is that when your economy is

:19:13.:19:14.

in difficulty you can take opportunities in other parts of the

:19:15.:19:17.

country. In the UK we should be supporting reforms to make sure

:19:18.:19:22.

there are not benefit attractions to coming to the UK so I think the

:19:23.:19:26.

Prime Minister's point about having to pay in before you take out, the

:19:27.:19:30.

point about fairness is really important and I think people in

:19:31.:19:33.

Britain think that if people are coming here to work, to pay their

:19:34.:19:38.

taxes and contribute to society, that is fine. You say it's a

:19:39.:19:43.

snapshot but let's look at this chart. Over the last five years, as

:19:44.:19:48.

you can see from that, from about 2012, under five years in fact,

:19:49.:19:55.

these are the absolute number, immigration from the EU has risen

:19:56.:20:02.

dramatically. My point is it is not a snapshot, it is a clear trend. The

:20:03.:20:07.

part of immigration over which we have no control is rising the

:20:08.:20:15.

fastest, isn't that a risk? But we go back to 1975 so historically this

:20:16.:20:19.

is a snapshot, and overtime this well change. We cannot have a system

:20:20.:20:24.

whereby you turn up in the UK and claim benefits from day one. You

:20:25.:20:29.

have to have a contributory principle. Also, those parts of the

:20:30.:20:35.

country, Boston in Lincolnshire, parts that have experienced high

:20:36.:20:39.

levels of immigration and we should be open and honest about this that

:20:40.:20:44.

we have seen statistics show big changes and may have impacted

:20:45.:20:47.

communities in big ways sometimes, they need the extra resource for

:20:48.:20:51.

schools and hospitals that this brings in. The case I'm putting to

:20:52.:20:57.

you this morning is that that is not necessarily a snapshot or that it

:20:58.:21:01.

will necessarily change. Let's look at the risks we would face in the

:21:02.:21:07.

years to come. Angela Merkel, the German Chancellor, decided that last

:21:08.:21:11.

year over a million Syrian immigrants could go to Germany.

:21:12.:21:14.

Eventually they could come here if they wish. Why should we be at the

:21:15.:21:22.

risk of unilateral decisions taken by a foreign leader? Obviously there

:21:23.:21:26.

are issues about residency rights in Germany or Italy before anyone could

:21:27.:21:32.

come to the UK. We retain border controls. If they become German

:21:33.:21:35.

citizens they will be allowed to come here. This is a balance of

:21:36.:21:41.

risks, on June the 23rd of voters have to weigh up these may bes. What

:21:42.:21:47.

we have heard clearly from the governor of the Bank of England, the

:21:48.:21:51.

Chancellor of the Exchequer, the head of the IMF, that there will be

:21:52.:21:55.

a seismic economic shock to the British economy. I understand that

:21:56.:22:00.

and there has been plenty of coverage of the risks of coming out,

:22:01.:22:05.

but I'm looking at the risks of staying in. Let me give you another

:22:06.:22:09.

one, I've given you the Angela Merkel example. Albania, Turkey and

:22:10.:22:17.

others all want to join the EU. More people that could have a right to

:22:18.:22:22.

come and live and work in the UK. That is a risk. We are already

:22:23.:22:28.

seeing the risk of Brexit. The pound is falling in value, economic

:22:29.:22:31.

decisions are not being taken at the moment. I'm not arguing that there

:22:32.:22:37.

are risks to coming out, I perfectly understand that. I'm looking at the

:22:38.:22:42.

risks if we stay in. Address this issue that the risk is of another 87

:22:43.:22:47.

more people with the right to come to Britain. My point is the risks

:22:48.:22:59.

are happening now,... What is your answer to the 87 million? The

:23:00.:23:04.

extension of Europe has to be managed carefully. The broader

:23:05.:23:07.

conversation about the total free movement of people across the

:23:08.:23:09.

European Union is something that needs to be addressed but firstly we

:23:10.:23:15.

won't have any say over that if we have left the European Union.

:23:16.:23:20.

Secondly, those countries which trade with Europe like Norway and

:23:21.:23:24.

Switzerland also have to accept the free movement of people. There's no

:23:25.:23:29.

free ticket on this. What I want is a strong Great Britain at the

:23:30.:23:34.

negotiating table making the case for our borders and security. When

:23:35.:23:38.

it comes to the free movement of people you raised the issue of

:23:39.:23:42.

Syrian refugees and concerns about security in the aftermath of

:23:43.:23:46.

Brussels and Paris, being part of Europe and having security

:23:47.:23:52.

connections with Europe makes us stronger. There's talk of another

:23:53.:23:57.

Greek financial bailout, fears of an Italian banking crisis looming this

:23:58.:24:01.

summer. If the eurozone plunges into another recession, the numbers

:24:02.:24:04.

coming here could easily hit new record highs. We have also seen we

:24:05.:24:13.

are not part of the Europe... They will come here looking for jobs. We

:24:14.:24:18.

are not on the hook for the Greek bailout. We were with the last one.

:24:19.:24:24.

Not to the same degree as other European members. We negotiated a

:24:25.:24:29.

strong exemption from that. This is about Britain having a strong voice

:24:30.:24:33.

at the negotiating table and you are offering up your own Project Fear. I

:24:34.:24:41.

am taking a methodical look at the risks. The eurozone is stagnating at

:24:42.:24:47.

the moment, that's why Spaniards, Italian and Portuguese are pouring

:24:48.:24:56.

into this country in huge numbers. If the eurozone was to tilt into

:24:57.:25:00.

another recession, that risks a lot more. It is a risk, and the British

:25:01.:25:06.

answer to that should be to deepen the single market, to make it more

:25:07.:25:10.

effective, to have growth across Europe. You do, if you have a strong

:25:11.:25:21.

British voice arguing for growth across Europe. You're talking about

:25:22.:25:25.

these potential threats in the future, we have a threat now.

:25:26.:25:31.

Businesses in my constituency, Stoke-on-Trent, are not making

:25:32.:25:35.

investment decisions. Indecision, two years of negotiation if we

:25:36.:25:41.

leave. Hold on... Two years of indecision if we vote to leave. Why

:25:42.:25:47.

are they eyeing the British stock exchange if there is indecision?

:25:48.:25:51.

There will always be levels of flow and investment but what we are

:25:52.:25:54.

seeing is fear and concern about the future. I think of workers in

:25:55.:26:00.

Staffordshire who go to work at the Toyota plant in Derby, they have

:26:01.:26:05.

jobs because of being part of the single market. I'm talking about the

:26:06.:26:16.

risks if we remain. Do you deny that if we stay in we face further

:26:17.:26:20.

integration? We have had a clear commitment from the Prime Minister

:26:21.:26:24.

that we won't be involved in ever closer union and that is a big

:26:25.:26:28.

philosophical moment, that Britain has a distinct and different stance

:26:29.:26:34.

to the rest of the European Union. I think people will benefit from the

:26:35.:26:39.

best of both worlds. If that is the case, you will be familiar with D5

:26:40.:26:44.

president report, the official road map for greater integration into the

:26:45.:26:49.

European Union. It calls for financial, fiscal and political

:26:50.:26:56.

union by 2025. That could affect us. We have a clear commitment we will

:26:57.:27:00.

not be involved in ever closer union. Have you read this report?

:27:01.:27:06.

Not all of it. It is not a long report. It says much of what I have

:27:07.:27:13.

just named, not all, but much of that could be achieved already

:27:14.:27:18.

through a deepening of the single market, which is important for all

:27:19.:27:23.

28 EU members, so we would not necessarily be excluded. I am in

:27:24.:27:29.

favour of a deep into single market so that those 200,000 businesses in

:27:30.:27:36.

the UK, exporting to Europe, have greater growth and opportunities.

:27:37.:27:41.

People become richer. So there could be deeper integration. I would like

:27:42.:27:46.

to see the digital and service economy grated more, we want more

:27:47.:27:50.

jobs and growth across Europe that Britain will benefit from. Why would

:27:51.:27:57.

we, when we face a global fear about downturn, decide to cut ourselves

:27:58.:28:01.

off from the richest market in the world. You say it is the richest, it

:28:02.:28:09.

is also stagnating. Because we cannot do our own trade deals with

:28:10.:28:13.

the part of the world that is growing, our trade is therefore

:28:14.:28:18.

hindered. It has taken seven years to reach a deal with Canada, it is

:28:19.:28:22.

not complete, the free trade deal with Australia has been blocked by

:28:23.:28:28.

Italy. These are all growth markets, unlike Europe, and we are unable to

:28:29.:28:33.

do free trade deals with them. That is a risk. Do you honestly think

:28:34.:28:39.

that if we left Europe and there were negotiations with India about a

:28:40.:28:45.

free trade deal, the UK, 60 million people, would be ahead of the queue

:28:46.:28:50.

of the European Union... Nothing is happening with India for nine years.

:28:51.:28:55.

We had historic links with India. What about Australia and Canada? We

:28:56.:29:00.

are not owed a living in the world. We have to make our businesses grow

:29:01.:29:05.

on their own terms and you do that by being part of the European Union.

:29:06.:29:10.

You have a much greater weight around the world by being part of

:29:11.:29:15.

this. My point is that we have the best of both worlds. We have the

:29:16.:29:18.

historic connections with the Commonwealth, with America. But why

:29:19.:29:25.

does the American trade representative say to us you would

:29:26.:29:29.

be crazy to leave Europe. Why do our allies around the world say you

:29:30.:29:35.

should be part of Europe? You say we won't be part of any further

:29:36.:29:40.

political integration, you say we won't join the euro, we won't be

:29:41.:29:44.

part of Schengen, and yet it is clear Europe will become at least

:29:45.:29:48.

within the eurozone more and more integrated. We will have less

:29:49.:29:51.

influence on that, we will essentially become a semi detached

:29:52.:29:58.

country club. What is the point? The point is a growing market for

:29:59.:30:03.

British businesses of 500 million people, and yes, this is the point

:30:04.:30:06.

about the best of both worlds, we don't want ever closer political

:30:07.:30:12.

union. We want access to the single market. The best of both worlds,

:30:13.:30:16.

safer, stronger and better off in Europe.

:30:17.:30:19.

Now, this week President Obama will make his valedictory

:30:20.:30:21.

He'll even have lunch with the Queen to celebrate her ninetieth birthday,

:30:22.:30:25.

presumably after she's watched the Daily Politics.

:30:26.:30:31.

But it's another aspect of Mr Obama's visit

:30:32.:30:35.

While he's here, the leader of the free world is expected

:30:36.:30:39.

to endorse the idea of the UK remaining in the

:30:40.:30:41.

Those campaigning to leave the EU are,

:30:42.:30:44.

surprise, surprise, a

:30:45.:30:45.

Here's what Boris Johnson had to say yesterday.

:30:46.:30:47.

I just find it absolutely bizarre that we are being lectured

:30:48.:30:50.

by the Americans about giving up our sovereignty,

:30:51.:30:52.

The United States, for their own reasons, their own history,

:30:53.:30:58.

traditions, based on the ideas of no taxation without representation,

:30:59.:31:03.

a fervent belief in the inviolability of American democracy,

:31:04.:31:06.

they would not dream of sharing sovereignty.

:31:07.:31:07.

Is he in danger of making America look like a hypocrite?

:31:08.:31:14.

Not in danger of it, I am afraid there is an intrinsic hypocrisy.

:31:15.:31:19.

I do not know what he's going to say, but if that is

:31:20.:31:24.

the American argument, of course it is nakedly hypocritical.

:31:25.:31:31.

To discuss this I'm joined by James Rubin.

:31:32.:31:33.

He was a spokesman in the US State Department during Bill

:31:34.:31:39.

And Liam Fox, former Defence Secretary, and a leading

:31:40.:31:42.

light in the campaign to leave the EU.

:31:43.:31:44.

Why should the leader of her closest allies, with whom we have a special

:31:45.:31:51.

relationship, on your regard as crucial to this country, not say

:31:52.:31:55.

what he thinks is in our national interest? He is entitled to say what

:31:56.:32:00.

he thinks is an America's national interest, but whether it is in the

:32:01.:32:05.

interests of Britain is a different question. Of course the president is

:32:06.:32:08.

entitled to say what he thinks, but we have to add a couple of caveats.

:32:09.:32:14.

That is his view. There are other views in America, Senator Rubio for

:32:15.:32:19.

example expressing a different view, he has expressed what he thinks

:32:20.:32:22.

about the special relationship if Britain were to leave the European

:32:23.:32:30.

Union. Tell me one previous American administration, Democratic or

:32:31.:32:32.

Republican, that thought we should not be in the EU, or did not care if

:32:33.:32:38.

we left? It is not a question of what the express, it is that they

:32:39.:32:42.

should respect what Britain does. They all want us to stay? There were

:32:43.:32:47.

strong elements of the last Republican administration, strong

:32:48.:32:51.

Republican leaders at present, who do not think... I do not remember

:32:52.:32:55.

the second President Bush saying that Britain should leave the EU.

:32:56.:33:01.

The debate is now, about our future, our relationship with the rest of

:33:02.:33:06.

the world. It is fair to say, though I might not use the same

:33:07.:33:08.

terminology, it is unthinkable that I might not use the same

:33:09.:33:12.

the United States would allow a court to overrule the Supreme Court

:33:13.:33:14.

the United States would allow a or someone else to determine their

:33:15.:33:18.

external borders, in a way that the European Union does for the United

:33:19.:33:22.

Kingdom. Boris Johnson has made that point. President Obama, supporting

:33:23.:33:28.

things for Britain, things that no European -- that no American

:33:29.:33:31.

president would contemplate. Maybe we would be more inclined to listen

:33:32.:33:37.

to the president if he favoured an open border with Mexico, and if

:33:38.:33:40.

Congress was no longer the ultimate decider of federal law? Let me see a

:33:41.:33:46.

couple of things. I am glad that my colleague agrees that the president

:33:47.:33:49.

is attacked -- entitled to express his view of what is in the

:33:50.:33:53.

President's interest. -- America's interest. America and the EU

:33:54.:34:01.

together, they are the most powerful force for free markets and democracy

:34:02.:34:05.

around the world. If Britain leads the European Union, we will be

:34:06.:34:10.

weaker. We will might be able to pursue the great values that our

:34:11.:34:12.

countries have pushed around the world. Written working with the

:34:13.:34:17.

United States and the EU is able to do that. We have a joke in America,

:34:18.:34:23.

but it is a serious matter. Friends do not let friends drive drunk. This

:34:24.:34:26.

is not in our interest, or the interests of the world. What about

:34:27.:34:31.

our interest? You will make that judgment. Is the president simply

:34:32.:34:35.

going to say it is in the interests of America? I think he will avoid

:34:36.:34:41.

telling Britain what is in Britain's interest. About the point on

:34:42.:34:46.

hypocrisy, I know Boris Johnson likes to read biographies of the

:34:47.:34:50.

past. Maybe he is living in the past when he thinks that America is a

:34:51.:34:56.

very large country, a superpower, it has the world's largest military. It

:34:57.:35:01.

does not have to do only what you choose is compared to the British.

:35:02.:35:07.

Britain is a different country, not the superpower any more. Just

:35:08.:35:09.

because we will not do something does not mean that the British

:35:10.:35:14.

ignored. If the US president was coming here to support Leave, you

:35:15.:35:17.

would be shouting it from the rooftops? I do not think we will

:35:18.:35:22.

find out if that is true or not. There is an element of hypocrisy. We

:35:23.:35:27.

need to get the balance. We need to stick to the issues. We recognise

:35:28.:35:32.

the president is alleged to have his view, but it is not the only

:35:33.:35:37.

American view of what is in America's interests. We have to

:35:38.:35:41.

recognise it is a British debate ultimately. We will make our

:35:42.:35:45.

decision. As to this point about pushing our values, Britain had the

:35:46.:35:48.

same values before we joined the European Union in 1973. The fact we

:35:49.:35:54.

will be changing our philosophical approach because we are part of the

:35:55.:35:59.

group in union is not true. I mean that the EU is a very powerful

:36:00.:36:03.

instrument in our world. The United States has great military power, but

:36:04.:36:07.

there are other powers we need to achieve order and stability, and

:36:08.:36:12.

promote free markets. We need the ability to promote sanctions and

:36:13.:36:17.

provide aid. We need the ability to promote democracy. The EU is good at

:36:18.:36:22.

that working with the United States. We are better able to do that when

:36:23.:36:26.

our closest ally is within the EU. Let him come back on that. We think

:36:27.:36:30.

our closest ally is within the EU. that the European Union is failing

:36:31.:36:33.

and that the structural failures of the European Union are not good for

:36:34.:36:39.

the West. We are seeing the re-emergence of nationalist tensions

:36:40.:36:42.

across Europe. We are seeing fence building. That is not the fault of

:36:43.:36:44.

the EU. It is a failure of the EU. building. That is not the fault of

:36:45.:36:50.

We are seeing a whole generation of young Europeans unemployed as a

:36:51.:36:53.

result of the single currency. It is creating tensions. You did not have

:36:54.:36:58.

a problem with foreigners weighing in during the Scottish referendum.

:36:59.:37:03.

You told the Scandinavian countries, if your analysis is that Scottish

:37:04.:37:09.

independence is a threat to your security, why are you not standing

:37:10.:37:12.

up and saying it? President Obama probably thinks it is a threat to

:37:13.:37:16.

allow security, so why should they not see that? I thought it was a

:37:17.:37:22.

risk to the security of Britain in the Scottish referendum if we left

:37:23.:37:27.

Natal. If Britain pulls out of the EU, the Scottish will pull out of

:37:28.:37:31.

Britain and there will be a hold-mac in Natal. I do not believe that to

:37:32.:37:35.

be true. When were you last in Scotland? I was recently there and I

:37:36.:37:41.

sat with the Scottish party leader. They have been clear that if the EU

:37:42.:37:47.

does not include Britain, the Scottish want to lead. Interest is

:37:48.:37:51.

one thing, having an opinion about what the SNP will do is different.

:37:52.:37:56.

THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE What about Senator Cruise, he is

:37:57.:38:00.

fighting for the Republican nomination with Donald Trump. He

:38:01.:38:03.

said that Mr Obama's comments will make it more likely that England, he

:38:04.:38:09.

means Britain, that England will pull out of the EU? I do not think

:38:10.:38:13.

it will have a massive impact either way in terms of the British result.

:38:14.:38:18.

I think it is important for us to recognise that this is a decision

:38:19.:38:22.

for the United Kingdom. I do not agree with this assessment that the

:38:23.:38:26.

European Union in its current model is good for the United States. It is

:38:27.:38:30.

unstable. Now you're giving an opinion for us. You just asked me

:38:31.:38:37.

not to do that. The United States and Britain working together have

:38:38.:38:41.

made the world a better place for democracy, for a free market. We are

:38:42.:38:45.

only able to do that successfully when our closest ally is part of the

:38:46.:38:51.

EU. American foreign policy will be weaker, Western foreign policy will

:38:52.:38:54.

be weaker if the British leave the EU. We look forward to the

:38:55.:38:59.

President's visit, whatever he has to say. Thank you.

:39:00.:39:01.

It's just gone 11:35, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:02.:39:03.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:04.:39:10.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:11.:39:12.

Willie Rennie's been hard at work on the campaign trail and says

:39:13.:39:18.

the Lib Dems are back to their best - but will voters agree?

:39:19.:39:22.

And Ruth Davidson says she's going into this election battle

:39:23.:39:24.

with a second-place finish for the Scottish Conservatives

:39:25.:39:26.

The Liberal Democrats have been out of Government

:39:27.:39:35.

A year in which the party's been trying to reassert

:39:36.:39:39.

its individual identity - and gain back some

:39:40.:39:41.

As May 5th approaches, the Scottish party leader

:39:42.:39:45.

Willie Rennie says the Lib Dems' optimistic, uplifting approach

:39:46.:39:48.

will help the party grow again at this election.

:39:49.:39:51.

Huw Williams has been considering their chances.

:39:52.:39:58.

The Scottish Liberal Democrats say this is the election at which they

:39:59.:40:04.

get back to winning ways. The last five years has seen the parties

:40:05.:40:10.

electrophoretic to in on the slide. Down to five members-macro at

:40:11.:40:14.

Holyrood and one mile per hour Westminster. The leader was born in

:40:15.:40:21.

Fife and is a keen runner. In past years worked for party headquarters

:40:22.:40:27.

and as a PR assistant. Key campaign themes will include an emphasis on

:40:28.:40:31.

civil Liberties, mental health and social care, and drug policy. But

:40:32.:40:35.

still the dens are highlighting their plans to put the Scottish rate

:40:36.:40:45.

of income tax up by 1p. The Liberal Democrats have gone back to the idea

:40:46.:40:49.

of putting a penny on income tax to spend more on schools and colleges

:40:50.:40:54.

of including children from less well-off backgrounds. That seems

:40:55.:40:59.

like a popular idea. You might think that having been in

:41:00.:41:04.

college and UK Government would be good for the Liberal Democrat's

:41:05.:41:08.

credibility. But then again maybe not. The difficulty the Liberal

:41:09.:41:14.

Democrats have is that the millstone of the coalition with the

:41:15.:41:21.

Conservatives and above all the U-turn on student tuition fees is

:41:22.:41:25.

something they have still not persuaded people to forgive them

:41:26.:41:29.

for. The truth is until people are willing to forget that it is

:41:30.:41:32.

difficult for the Liberal Democrats to get much of a hearing.

:41:33.:41:38.

Willie Rennie said if the party tax rise plans, if nobody supported that

:41:39.:41:43.

I would still advocate it. Opponents except that is believed that as the

:41:44.:41:46.

idea of an election that you try to win?

:41:47.:41:49.

In your manifesto you said the Liberal Democrats are looking for

:41:50.:42:00.

the opportunity to ask people to pay a little more so that we are outward

:42:01.:42:04.

looking and ambitious for the country. That has been missing in

:42:05.:42:08.

recent years and we're back to its now. What been missing? That

:42:09.:42:14.

ambitious agenda for the country. That looking out to grow. Do you

:42:15.:42:20.

think the Liberal Democrats did not have that whenever in the coalition?

:42:21.:42:24.

We were tarnished during the coalition years. There is no doubt

:42:25.:42:29.

about that. Now we can be more positive and uplifting and people

:42:30.:42:32.

are coming back to us as a result. Are you saying they were not

:42:33.:42:37.

ambitious during the coalition? They were ambitious but what we were

:42:38.:42:40.

tarnished by was that coalition needed. As a result the results in

:42:41.:42:44.

subsequent years were more challenging. But now what we have

:42:45.:42:50.

with this progressive agenda on tax, guaranteed Civil Liberties,

:42:51.:42:53.

protecting the environment, meeting should be boost mental health

:42:54.:42:55.

services... The problem you have got should be boost mental health

:42:56.:43:02.

is this millstone around your neck. People will say, we do not like the

:43:03.:43:05.

Liberal Democrats, they were in coalition with the Tories, and

:43:06.:43:09.

particularly people say you cannot trust what people say. They lied

:43:10.:43:13.

electrician fees. They give personal guarantees as candidates that they

:43:14.:43:16.

would not put up tuition fees and then they did. That is what you need

:43:17.:43:21.

to get over. Does not see much saying that you are getting it. What

:43:22.:43:27.

you will say is that Liberal Democrats are not going to make that

:43:28.:43:31.

mistake again. There is no doubt we heard the message loud and clear.

:43:32.:43:36.

What people thought about the coalition, what people thought about

:43:37.:43:39.

the tuition fees mistake, we understood what people were saying.

:43:40.:43:43.

There is no doubt, we are never put to make that mistake again. We are

:43:44.:43:47.

getting that across in this election. We have got an agenda now

:43:48.:43:52.

that is positive and uplifting. When I was an hour yesterday, not

:43:53.:43:55.

particularly a Liberal Democrat heartland, people were stopping me

:43:56.:43:59.

in the street telling me that because of that positive uplifting

:44:00.:44:02.

agenda they are going to vote for us for the first time. People still do

:44:03.:44:12.

not trust you. People are coming to us because of that agenda. Would you

:44:13.:44:16.

feel more or less comparable fighting the Scottish election

:44:17.:44:20.

campaign if the Liberal Democrats were still in coalition with the

:44:21.:44:25.

Conservatives at Westminster? You see for yourself the consequences of

:44:26.:44:29.

the Conservatives running the Government by themselves. Everybody

:44:30.:44:35.

sees the big cats. Are you more or less comfortable rest I am positive

:44:36.:44:43.

with an uplifting campaign. I am a Liberal Democrat. I would rather the

:44:44.:44:46.

Liberal Democrats were in charge by ourselves because we have seen what

:44:47.:44:48.

this out when the Tories overcharged by themselves. You say you want to

:44:49.:44:53.

use the new powers for gender equality in Scottish elections. In a

:44:54.:45:02.

PR system, it is not just about candidates, it is about the chances

:45:03.:45:04.

of getting elected. Many candidates, it is about the chances

:45:05.:45:08.

would say that apart from a handful of constituencies that is the best

:45:09.:45:14.

chance, in the regional list. But in the regional list you need

:45:15.:45:19.

candidates in sex or even seven of the each regions are all men. Are

:45:20.:45:29.

you comfortable with that. -- and six or seven of each region. The

:45:30.:45:37.

plan is to have balance across parliamentary representation. It is

:45:38.:45:40.

a weakness there. That is why I took firm action to come up with plans.

:45:41.:45:46.

Seven out of eight lead candidates are men. I recognise what you are

:45:47.:45:52.

saying that is why I took firm action. I know you recognise what I

:45:53.:45:58.

am saying. You do not want this to happen again? I have done something

:45:59.:46:05.

about it. What I want to have as equal representation in the

:46:06.:46:11.

Parliament and to make sure that we are progressive and represent the

:46:12.:46:13.

people we seek to represent. This will be the last time that seven out

:46:14.:46:17.

of eight are men? You have seen the plans. 2019, 2020, we will have

:46:18.:46:26.

gender balance. You say you are not interested in going into coalition

:46:27.:46:31.

after the selection should the SNP failed to win an outright majority.

:46:32.:46:37.

Unless that is one of your goals what is the point in voting Liberal

:46:38.:46:42.

Democrat, even if you are Liberal Democrat? The real value is, what

:46:43.:46:47.

you have seen in the last five years in Holyrood when we have punched

:46:48.:46:50.

above our weight. That was not for us who would have the SNP? Why do

:46:51.:46:56.

not want to go into coalition. You could have a big impact without

:46:57.:47:03.

forming a coalition. You have just finished telling me how valuable it

:47:04.:47:06.

was to have the Liberal Democrats in coalition with the Conservatives.

:47:07.:47:10.

For the speedy is what I want to do is accept the maximum pressure on

:47:11.:47:15.

the next Parliament to make sure that liberal values at the heart of

:47:16.:47:20.

Parliament. In the last five years a big challenge on the police,

:47:21.:47:24.

guaranteeing civil liberties, the super ID database, guaranteed

:47:25.:47:35.

expansion of nursery education. I am not interested in coalitions. Your

:47:36.:47:42.

penny on tax to spend on education will raise about ?500 million per

:47:43.:47:55.

year. ?170 million goes to the people premium. That goes direct to

:47:56.:48:00.

schools. It does not go through local authorities. This goes direct

:48:01.:48:04.

to schools. The mechanism makes sure that people from disadvantaged

:48:05.:48:06.

backgrounds get extra support that people from disadvantaged

:48:07.:48:11.

tuition, homework support. That is given to headteachers. Yes. What

:48:12.:48:14.

about the rest of the money? Does that go through local authorities?

:48:15.:48:21.

70 or ?80 million will go through local authorities. College funding

:48:22.:48:25.

is ?108 million. Nursery education is 100 million. How much it goes

:48:26.:48:30.

through local authorities in total? The exact mechanism will be partly

:48:31.:48:35.

tied in entitlement to nursery education people premium. You will

:48:36.:48:39.

ring fence that money. You're not education people premium. You will

:48:40.:48:43.

just give it to local authorities. It is an entitlement. The money will

:48:44.:48:47.

be guaranteed to go into that area. Every penny you get a local

:48:48.:48:51.

authorities to spend on education there will be a legal requirement to

:48:52.:48:55.

spend it on education. There is a pot of about 70 million or ?80

:48:56.:49:00.

million which will go to local authorities to reverse the education

:49:01.:49:06.

cuts. Half of what local authorities do is education. I know what you are

:49:07.:49:15.

driving at. The vast bulk... What I am driving at this why should people

:49:16.:49:19.

want to have their taxes go up for money that may or may not be spent

:49:20.:49:27.

on education? ?190 million per year for a pupil premium, the Scottish

:49:28.:49:33.

Ajit is ?30 billion. Are you saying you cannot find money for that

:49:34.:49:38.

without putting up tax? ?500 million will go directly into education

:49:39.:49:43.

funding in Scotland. That is a big investment. People will know what

:49:44.:49:45.

they are getting for that investment. We have got an urgent

:49:46.:49:54.

situation. New Government in the UK implemented the pupil premium. We

:49:55.:49:58.

did not pay taxes up. You have asked me this question before. The

:49:59.:50:02.

situation in Scotland is so urgent. Used up one of the best education

:50:03.:50:07.

systems in the world. We spend more money on education per capita than a

:50:08.:50:10.

month does. We used to have the best education system in the world. We

:50:11.:50:16.

cannot wait on the SNP anymore. They have been sitting to mentally for

:50:17.:50:20.

nine years in Government whilst the education system has slipped down to

:50:21.:50:32.

average. I want... Children cannot wait for the SNP anymore. If we

:50:33.:50:36.

carry on the path that the SNP are pursuing they will be waiting. The

:50:37.:50:45.

SNP are reducing national testing which will be one way that we could

:50:46.:50:49.

no it is spending this money could have any effect. You are a case

:50:50.:50:54.

that? Of course, because it disrupts the relationship between the pupil

:50:55.:51:02.

and teacher. Prior to the question? Wait back a phrase you use,

:51:03.:51:08.

according to you, with the peg, do not fatten the pack. What this

:51:09.:51:14.

disrupted the relationship between pupil teacher and that is critically

:51:15.:51:19.

important. The second thing it does is it undermines the curriculum for

:51:20.:51:22.

important. The second thing it does excellence, which is supposed to be

:51:23.:51:23.

important. The second thing it does put power back into the hands of

:51:24.:51:27.

teachers. What testing does is strives teaching to the test, it

:51:28.:51:31.

also makes sure that resources go into areas that are being tested,

:51:32.:51:35.

rather than the areas that improve all-round education. What I am

:51:36.:51:42.

getting at is how under your prog -- how do your policies would we know

:51:43.:51:45.

if you extra spending has had any effect? You have the inspection

:51:46.:51:52.

regime that is there, that tests how schools are performing. They go in

:51:53.:51:53.

and investigate schools to see the schools are performing. They go in

:51:54.:51:59.

property of investigation. We would have fewer failing schools, is

:52:00.:52:00.

property of investigation. We would what you're saying? Make sure the

:52:01.:52:07.

fundamentals of education are right by having proper investigations and

:52:08.:52:09.

put power back in the hands of teachers. If you can do that and

:52:10.:52:12.

allow them to teach pupils in the way they were trained to then I

:52:13.:52:17.

think we will get an improvement in our education system. You can

:52:18.:52:19.

think we will get an improvement in understand how some people watching

:52:20.:52:22.

this thing hang on, we're being asked for our taxes to go for money

:52:23.:52:26.

that may or may not be spent on education and they are against the

:52:27.:52:30.

measure is the SNP are proposing, which would enable us to tell

:52:31.:52:33.

whether the spending is having any effect not. I disagree with that

:52:34.:52:38.

completely, what we are seeing here is the SNP ripping right into the

:52:39.:52:42.

heart of the week education works in Scotland, we need to trust the

:52:43.:52:46.

teacher to do their job. We need to make sure they have the B sources to

:52:47.:52:51.

do their job. That way we can have an improvement in our education

:52:52.:52:55.

system. Of course you can review how education is performing, we have the

:52:56.:53:00.

OECD conduct their own studies as that is showing that education in

:53:01.:53:03.

Scotland has gone from one of the best to just average. That is not

:53:04.:53:09.

good enough. Policing is one of your biggest issues, why are you not

:53:10.:53:13.

proposing to break up the national police force and put it under the

:53:14.:53:16.

control of local authorities? I do not think it would be a good idea to

:53:17.:53:22.

impose another top-down... But you have been one of the biggest critics

:53:23.:53:27.

of this. And we were right. Look at what has happened. Industrial skill

:53:28.:53:31.

of this. And we were right. Look at stop at steps, there have been some

:53:32.:53:35.

terrible things happening to the police. -- industrial scale stop and

:53:36.:53:40.

search. In other mass of your organisation would be the wrong

:53:41.:53:46.

thing to do. If they had listened to us in the first place he would not

:53:47.:53:49.

have gone through this pain and agony. We are going to allow them to

:53:50.:53:54.

do their job. Apart from seeing local policing plans should be

:53:55.:53:59.

agreed by local people, none of your proposals in policing seem to do

:54:00.:54:04.

very much to restore... That is nonsense. What we want to do is spit

:54:05.:54:08.

out the target culture in the police, if you speak to the Police

:54:09.:54:11.

Federation they would agree wholeheartedly with what I'm saying.

:54:12.:54:15.

The second thing we would do is make sure -- we would allow local

:54:16.:54:18.

authorities to agree policing plans to inject democracy back in.

:54:19.:54:23.

Effectively local authorities would have a veto in policing policy and

:54:24.:54:28.

local authority areas. That would inject democracy back in and return

:54:29.:54:32.

Scottish policing to where it was before the SNP started meddling with

:54:33.:54:36.

that. Why argue reluctant to impose the named person legislation? We

:54:37.:54:44.

gave cautious support initially. A lot of people are opposed. Let me

:54:45.:54:49.

answer the question, you are very good at the drop in, let me answer

:54:50.:54:52.

the question. We need to make sure it is reviewed properly. Primarily

:54:53.:54:59.

because it came from a bottom-up exercise and a pilot conducted in

:55:00.:55:03.

Highland in Edinburgh, that made sure that there was nobody going to

:55:04.:55:06.

slip through the net. I recognise that there are considerable concerns

:55:07.:55:11.

from parents and others, that is why I want to review it, to make sure

:55:12.:55:16.

that local authorities do not overreach, they do not do more than

:55:17.:55:19.

they are entitled to do and if they do then we will recommend pulling

:55:20.:55:24.

back but I think it is right to make sure that we try and progress this

:55:25.:55:28.

and review it. But you are not against it in principle, a lot of

:55:29.:55:31.

the opponents of this and say the are engaged in principle, the idea

:55:32.:55:36.

of having a named person. I am not against it in principle, I want to

:55:37.:55:39.

review it carefully to insure it discipline to properly. Drugs, you

:55:40.:55:47.

see a new manifesto that the Liberal Democrats in favour of legalising

:55:48.:55:53.

cannabis, why not do it here? We propose a sense that I was a system

:55:54.:55:59.

like Portugal that has decriminalisation and ensure that

:56:00.:56:04.

rehabilitation is essential part. This will push the powers that the

:56:05.:56:07.

Scottish probe that has rights to the edge but we believe this is the

:56:08.:56:10.

enlightened way to do it to tackle the real problem we have in Scotland

:56:11.:56:15.

of drugs. We must finish there. Your plans and resolution for the

:56:16.:56:19.

campaign, puppies, but it -- bunny rabbits, pigs are out, right? Maybe!

:56:20.:56:23.

A14 thank you very much. The Scottish Conservatives have big

:56:24.:56:25.

ambitions for this election. They want to overtake Labour and

:56:26.:56:28.

become the biggest opposition party. There's been some sneering

:56:29.:56:31.

that the Tory leader Ruth Davidson is not even claiming she's

:56:32.:56:33.

going to win. But there's no doubt coming

:56:34.:56:35.

second would be a huge But have they really any

:56:36.:56:37.

chance of doing that? The Scottish Conservatives under

:56:38.:56:48.

Ruth Davidson's leadership claim that in this election they really

:56:49.:56:53.

are snapping at Labour's heels to take second place behind the SNP.

:56:54.:56:59.

She was born in Edinburgh, worked as a newspaper reporter then at BBC

:57:00.:57:03.

Scotland, she left the BBC to study at Glasgow University and joined the

:57:04.:57:07.

Conservative Party. She is a member of the Church of Scotland, a kick

:57:08.:57:11.

boxer, a Dunfermline athletic supporter and has been promised a

:57:12.:57:14.

new puppy by her partner once the campaign is over. The parties try to

:57:15.:57:20.

position itself as the go to option for no voters after the dependence

:57:21.:57:23.

referendum and tested against the idea of tax rises as Holyrood has

:57:24.:57:30.

power over rates. The Conservatives seem to be playing a popular tune on

:57:31.:57:36.

key issues north of the border, one undoubtedly is tied to keep taxation

:57:37.:57:39.

the same as England, half of Scots like that idea and have strong

:57:40.:57:43.

commitment to increasing spending on the health service. That is

:57:44.:57:46.

something that most Scots would like to see happen.

:57:47.:57:51.

But the Conservatives face a long-standing difficulty if they

:57:52.:57:53.

want to generate mass support in Scotland again. The problem the

:57:54.:57:58.

Conservatives face is the one they have faced ever since the late 90s

:57:59.:58:01.

and that is that people are still not convinced that this is a party

:58:02.:58:05.

that puts Scotland first as opposed to Britain as a whole. Despite the

:58:06.:58:09.

fact that the new devolution settlement that Scotland will enjoy

:58:10.:58:13.

was written by a Conservative UK Government, it is still plagued by

:58:14.:58:17.

the perception that it is an English party that originally wanted to deny

:58:18.:58:21.

Scotland's devolution. Despite talk of a party on the up the reality

:58:22.:58:28.

remains that in last year's Westminster general election

:58:29.:58:30.

Scottish Conservatives took the lowest share of the vote for a

:58:31.:58:31.

century and a half. Your big pictures -- your big

:58:32.:58:48.

picture for you is to stop independence? I would love to be

:58:49.:58:52.

First Minister tomorrow but what we need here is a strong opposition to

:58:53.:58:54.

the Scottish Government because we have not had won the last nine

:58:55.:58:59.

years. I was going to ask you, have you written of people who voted yes?

:59:00.:59:06.

Now, but we must start, the SNP want to start a campaign to reopen this

:59:07.:59:10.

in the summer but we must plan for the long-term. What would you say to

:59:11.:59:14.

someone who voted yes? I to listen to them and reassure them that the

:59:15.:59:17.

someone who voted yes? I to listen ambitions we have for our country

:59:18.:59:22.

can exist within the newly re-empower Scottish parliament and

:59:23.:59:23.

can exist within the newly in order for our country to come

:59:24.:59:26.

back together we need to do less shouting and more listening. Problem

:59:27.:59:32.

you have as you know is that many people say that Ruth Davidson is

:59:33.:59:35.

really nice but many people like Annabell Goldie as well. There is

:59:36.:59:40.

this resistance in Scotland, isn't there, people think I can actually

:59:41.:59:43.

say that I cannot bring myself to vote Conservative. You still have

:59:44.:59:50.

the image of the nasty party. What we are seeing is there is a really

:59:51.:59:53.

specific job I will do for you if you vote for us. This does not make

:59:54.:59:58.

you a trolley or died in the wool trueblue but what people see as we

:59:59.:00:02.

can do you a job because this country needs a strong opposition.

:00:03.:00:05.

We have passed some bad laws in the last nine years, we have nine years,

:00:06.:00:10.

six leaders had no success for a Labour Party in opposition. That

:00:11.:00:14.

Scottish sense of fair play kicks in, give someone else a try. I will

:00:15.:00:20.

hold the SNP to account and say no to a second referendum. U just ask a

:00:21.:00:28.

few questions. To test this image problem the Conservatives have had.

:00:29.:00:32.

Nicola Sturgeon has proposed a register of controlling interests

:00:33.:00:35.

which in the wake of the Panama papers affair would allow us to know

:00:36.:00:40.

who owns land in Scotland. Would the Conservative support that? We always

:00:41.:00:44.

said by the land reform was coming through that we want a register of

:00:45.:00:47.

who owns the land in Scotland. What we did not support was absolute

:00:48.:00:51.

right to buy which stops the entrants coming in. Do you think we

:00:52.:00:55.

should know who the beneficial owners are of all land in Scotland?

:00:56.:00:59.

That is why we supported the land Registry just a few weeks ago. What

:01:00.:01:05.

a new manifesto would cut the number of people relying on food banks?

:01:06.:01:11.

Getting more people into jobs. That is a bit like the old Monty Python

:01:12.:01:13.

Getting more people into jobs. That joke about blue Peter, isn't it? Did

:01:14.:01:19.

lots of trenches and film absorb water. Of course growing the economy

:01:20.:01:25.

would help people not going to fit bikes but there is nothing

:01:26.:01:27.

mentioning new manifesto and that is bikes but there is nothing

:01:28.:01:31.

not a specific proposal. If you look at the SNP government's own, every

:01:32.:01:36.

year they must publish a big paper on poverty in this country that

:01:37.:01:40.

shows that poverty levels are down, income is up, there are fewer people

:01:41.:01:43.

in poverty in Scotland that there has been, few people in child

:01:44.:01:48.

poverty and that this is specifically because even the

:01:49.:01:50.

Scottish Government acknowledges this, more people in Scotland are in

:01:51.:01:53.

employment and more people have more hours of deployment than previously.

:01:54.:01:58.

Many people will say what world is she living in when we have had a

:01:59.:02:01.

report from the Castle trust seeing the number of people visiting fit

:02:02.:02:05.

bikes in Scotland is up by 30% at the rate of increase in Scotland is

:02:06.:02:09.

higher than the rate of increase in the rest of the UK. You have not

:02:10.:02:14.

told me anything specifically about food banks. F I was quoting my own

:02:15.:02:21.

figures they would be right to say that, but I am quoting the figures

:02:22.:02:25.

from the Scottish Government. Your specific proposals were not to

:02:26.:02:29.

anything about food banks apart from creating jobs. We want to cut the

:02:30.:02:32.

appointed by for disabled people, we want to use our powers to insure we

:02:33.:02:37.

have a dedicated appointed agency, we want to grow the Scottish

:02:38.:02:40.

economy, freeze business rates to allow people to hire more people and

:02:41.:02:45.

create more skills for people leaving education that do not find a

:02:46.:02:49.

place in college. We want to increase the number of

:02:50.:02:52.

apprenticeships. If I were a young man or woman... This is more people,

:02:53.:02:58.

very specific policies. If I were a young man or woman who has perhaps

:02:59.:03:02.

had relationship problems and mental health problems, lost her job, I

:03:03.:03:05.

have been sanctioned for some reason or other by the DWP, been refused an

:03:06.:03:10.

emergency loan and I were watching this before visiting the feedback I

:03:11.:03:14.

would think, well that is just waffle. There's nothing there that

:03:15.:03:18.

specifically addresses by problem. If you want specific segment that

:03:19.:03:23.

worked choice, and it which exists to help people who have either

:03:24.:03:25.

mental or physical disabilities get into the workplace. It is

:03:26.:03:30.

voluntarily, it is for people who want to have obscurely, extra

:03:31.:03:34.

skills, he was confidence and help in terms of application. 5000

:03:35.:03:38.

people, the furthest from the jobs market, have gone into that. Down

:03:39.:03:42.

south there is a movement to combine up with other employment agencies,

:03:43.:03:45.

we say that under the new powers in up with other employment agencies,

:03:46.:03:48.

Scotland will have that is something we will keep going. We will have a

:03:49.:03:53.

specific pledge in our manifesto to have an increased by ?300 million

:03:54.:03:56.

over the course of Parliament to help fund it. You said specifically

:03:57.:04:00.

for people of mental health issues and that is one that will help

:04:01.:04:05.

address that. David Cameron's Panama papers adventures, that presumably

:04:06.:04:08.

has not been very helpful to you try to run a campaign to convince people

:04:09.:04:12.

that the Conservatives have a different image. The people of

:04:13.:04:16.

Scotland aren't daft, they know what this election is about, it will be

:04:17.:04:20.

your First Minister that he will be the Leader of the Opposition. I can

:04:21.:04:24.

do a good job for people as the Leader of the Opposition. I have put

:04:25.:04:31.

my own tax affairs out there. There's nothing to hide there. It

:04:32.:04:34.

was on the Internet for all to see. Are you saying I am not like David

:04:35.:04:40.

Cameron at all? And seeing how the press the ballot paper, I'm the

:04:41.:04:44.

person voting for. Do you think he did make a mistake in not being more

:04:45.:04:49.

open about what he... He has put more information in the public realm

:04:50.:04:51.

in any previous Prime Minister. Do more information in the public realm

:04:52.:04:55.

think it would have been better if he did it all at the beginning

:04:56.:05:00.

rather than over a couple days? In retrospect, yes. Your tax commission

:05:01.:05:05.

recommended a 30p rate of tax. What happened to that? We looked at it

:05:06.:05:10.

and how much it would cost of the also looked at ways in which we can

:05:11.:05:13.

call the Scottish economy and we have a real philosophical belief and

:05:14.:05:16.

it is backed up by today's polling that 60% of people across goal and

:05:17.:05:20.

believe us, that we should not have tax rates higher in Scotland than

:05:21.:05:23.

the rest of the UK, so we're seeing things like the vessel to change for

:05:24.:05:27.

the additional rate of tax, the threshold change for the operator

:05:28.:05:31.

tax, and that moves that up to about ?45,000 and beyond. We cannot a way

:05:32.:05:37.

with in their constrain spending to make sure that we were able to do

:05:38.:05:38.

that at this time. It was one that we thought that we

:05:39.:05:51.

as a country could not afford right now if we wanted to have the same

:05:52.:05:58.

level of services. I am fairly sure that Ukip will not

:05:59.:06:05.

be travelling the scorers at this election. You say in your manifesto

:06:06.:06:11.

you would allow councils to put in place a moratorium on wind farms. So

:06:12.:06:17.

if local people lobby fodder and councils bought Phillip there will

:06:18.:06:25.

be no wind farms? We would be the most densely properly to the country

:06:26.:06:28.

and the entire world with wind turbines. We think that local people

:06:29.:06:33.

should have a level and degree of control over what happens in the

:06:34.:06:37.

area. That is why you have local Government. Local Government should

:06:38.:06:42.

be empowered to make some decisions. You sit there is a precedent for

:06:43.:06:47.

this in your manifesto because of that moratorium on fracking. But you

:06:48.:06:52.

are in favour of fracking. Again with local authorities giving it the

:06:53.:06:56.

Green light. They are happy with it is up to them. Local authorities

:06:57.:07:04.

will be able to have moratoriums on fracking. Absolutely but we do not

:07:05.:07:06.

think there should be a blanket ban fracking. Absolutely but we do not

:07:07.:07:11.

on gas extraction. We also see fractured extraction happening

:07:12.:07:11.

on gas extraction. We also see offshore in Scotland right now. You

:07:12.:07:20.

see that schools should be allowed to operate outside local authority

:07:21.:07:24.

control. How is that going to work? The policy of the Conservatives in

:07:25.:07:28.

Westminster is to take all schools in England out of local authority

:07:29.:07:33.

control? We have had a different education system here since the dawn

:07:34.:07:38.

of time. We want more schools and more school leaders, headteachers

:07:39.:07:42.

and others in the school board, to have control over hiring and firing.

:07:43.:07:46.

How do you get it? If you are a parent watching this and Ruth

:07:47.:07:52.

Davidson is the next First Minister, how do I get my school out of local

:07:53.:07:58.

authority control? There is a school that is going to be shut down. It is

:07:59.:08:03.

a catholic school. Their patents they have a business model that is

:08:04.:08:07.

ready to go. They think we have got the plan in place and the teaching

:08:08.:08:12.

in place to rant at outside local authority control. We see this

:08:13.:08:17.

should not be stopped from doing so. We have a good example in Jordanhill

:08:18.:08:21.

and Glasgow, a school that has been run outside local authority control

:08:22.:08:25.

for some time. It is not completely new but that should be allowed to

:08:26.:08:30.

happen. Whether schools are in or out of local authority control are

:08:31.:08:35.

you saying you are agnostic? No. I am not good to be proscriptive but

:08:36.:08:38.

all schools must be one or the other. The point about believing as

:08:39.:08:42.

I do that children are not all the same, should not be topless scene,

:08:43.:08:45.

it about empowering the leadership of the

:08:46.:08:57.

school -- should not be topped the same. People feel disconnected from

:08:58.:09:13.

Holyrood. Local oversight is not beer. Centralisation of colleges and

:09:14.:09:17.

services. People should be empowered to make decisions when they know

:09:18.:09:20.

better than faceless bureaucrats at Holyrood. The graduate tax, you say

:09:21.:09:28.

you want ?6,000... Contribution. What a lot of people will think is

:09:29.:09:35.

that there is a low the level in England. Scottish universities are

:09:36.:09:39.

at a disadvantage and they would still be in the though there a

:09:40.:09:44.

graduate tax. Scottish universities say they want more money in the

:09:45.:09:49.

system to compete. Universities punch above their weight in the

:09:50.:09:53.

world. People say this is the thin end of a wedge. We are seeing this

:09:54.:09:57.

as the policy, this is how we want to roll it out. Inters... Parliament

:09:58.:10:05.

this is for people who then graduate and are earning more than ?20,000.

:10:06.:10:13.

You give no guarantee. The ?6,000 is for an honours degree. In end

:10:14.:10:23.

understand that ?1000 it is now ?9,000 why should anybody believe

:10:24.:10:25.

that under a Conservative administration would not start at

:10:26.:10:29.

?6,000 for an honours degree course and writer ?25,000? Because we have

:10:30.:10:34.

a separate education system. These are my proposals. Once you breach

:10:35.:10:45.

the principle of having three higher education there will inevitably be

:10:46.:10:50.

pressure from the educational establishment, the situation in the

:10:51.:10:58.

economy, to produce these up. Nothing is inevitable. There used to

:10:59.:11:02.

be a contribution. It was then scrapped. We are looking at a model

:11:03.:11:05.

by which we know that people who graduate with a degree are likely to

:11:06.:11:10.

earn ?100,000 in their working life more than somebody without. We are

:11:11.:11:13.

asking them to pay a small proportion of that back into the

:11:14.:11:16.

education system which has helped them. We want to charge students

:11:17.:11:20.

from overseas and Europe or June be a penny for the degree that they get

:11:21.:11:24.

out off Scotland. They do not have to make any contribution. That would

:11:25.:11:29.

raise ?100 million to help the further and higher education in

:11:30.:11:34.

Scotland. Yes the state should put in lots but this should be a

:11:35.:11:39.

contribution that those that directly benefit. And the important

:11:40.:11:47.

thing is the money would be used to help people from Bhullar backbones

:11:48.:11:50.

get into university because in Scotland that is not happening. --

:11:51.:11:56.

help people from less well-off backgrounds. If people to leave the

:11:57.:11:59.

help people from less well-off European Union and I know you are

:12:00.:12:03.

against that, and the SNP say they want to have a referendum, should

:12:04.:12:08.

against that, and the SNP say they David Cameron block that? I do not

:12:09.:12:09.

think there is any grounds at all... David Cameron block that? I do not

:12:10.:12:16.

Should the British Government have the right to say that is it we will

:12:17.:12:20.

not allow you to do that? There is no mandate for the SNP party to say

:12:21.:12:26.

that Brexit is the trigger. There is no mandate for that. In the same way

:12:27.:12:33.

Scotland have voted yes... Let me finish. She said this is a material

:12:34.:12:43.

change was not the you thought that the other way. Scotland voted yes in

:12:44.:12:48.

2014 with the other side of that I would be that I could see letters

:12:49.:12:53.

have another referendum because the oil price tanked, that is a material

:12:54.:12:58.

change. No. The egg in it was signed by the UK Government and the

:12:59.:13:01.

Scottish Government to say the the result of the referendum. After this

:13:02.:13:06.

election will you be the main opposition? Yes. And I will work so

:13:07.:13:10.

hard for people to hold them to account. We asked Willie Rennie but

:13:11.:13:16.

you will be doing for the rest of the campaign. Do you have any plans

:13:17.:13:24.

to sit on a tag any form of lethal weapon? No thanks in this campaign

:13:25.:13:30.

that there might be other forms of transport.

:13:31.:13:31.

We'll have continuing coverage of the election campaign

:13:32.:13:33.

On Tuesday, energy and the environment is the subject

:13:34.:13:37.

of an hour long debate on Scotland 2016.

:13:38.:13:39.

A studio audience will get their chance to put

:13:40.:13:41.

questions to politicians, chaired by Shelley Jofre.

:13:42.:13:43.

That's on Tuesday on BBC Two Scotland at half past ten.

:13:44.:13:46.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:47.:13:51.

Presented by Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer. Labour's Tristram Hunt talks about the potential effects of the UK remaining in the EU, former defence secretary Liam Fox and US State Department spokesman Jamie Rubin debate whether President Obama should intervene in the EU referendum, and Professor John Curtice details the forthcoming elections in May.

Nick Watt of the Guardian, Isabel Oakeshott of the Daily Mail and the FT's Janan Ganesh keep Andrew company throughout the programme.


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