10/04/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/04/2016

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Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:38.

After a week of damaging questions over his financial affairs,

:00:39.:00:40.

David Cameron tries to get on the front foot

:00:41.:00:43.

by publishing details of his tax bills.

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but no evidence he's avoided or evaded any tax.

:00:47.:00:53.

Will it silence his critics or just spur them on?

:00:54.:00:55.

We've got the details and the analysis.

:00:56.:00:57.

The Prime Minister's bigger challenge

:00:58.:00:59.

is still winning the EU referendum, and one of his key arguments

:01:00.:01:02.

is that membership helps keep us safe.

:01:03.:01:07.

And this should be Ukip's big moment, so why is the party

:01:08.:01:13.

fighting among itself and facing an uncertain future?

:01:14.:01:17.

We'll bring you the full account of what's going wrong inside Ukip.

:01:18.:01:21.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:22.:01:23.

We begin our series of interviews with the Scottish party leaders.

:01:24.:01:25.

Today it's the turn of David Coburn of Ukip and the co-convener

:01:26.:01:28.

of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

:01:29.:01:39.

All that and more coming up in the next hour and a quarter.

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And when it comes to embarrassing admissions, PR blunders and having

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we've decided to bring in the real experts.

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Yes, it's Sam Coates, Beth Rigby and Isabel Oakeshott.

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Luckily, their tax affairs are pretty simple,

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but that's mainly because we pay them so badly.

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Without a doubt, it's been a pretty miserable time

:02:04.:02:06.

He's been on the defensive since Monday, when his father

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was linked to the so-called Panama Papers, leaked documents

:02:11.:02:12.

which showed how the rich and powerful use

:02:13.:02:14.

It's led to thousands protesting outside Downing Street

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For the first time, his approval ratings

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Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged he'd handled the affair badly,

:02:21.:02:25.

and overnight Number 10 published the headlines of his personal income

:02:26.:02:28.

tax returns for the past six years, including the tax he's paid.

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So what, if anything, has he done wrong?

:02:36.:02:37.

Well, we'll attempt to answer that question this morning,

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but first here's a reminder of how the story unfolded.

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The Panama Papers contain links to 12 current or former heads of state

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and government. In the UK, attention has focused on David Cameron and an

:02:56.:02:59.

offshore investment fund which is late father, Ian Cameron, set up in

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the early 1980s. Blairmore was incorporated in one tax saving,

:03:05.:03:07.

Panama, but based in another, the Bahamas. He used a financial

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instrument to protect investors per' privacy, then legal, but since

:03:15.:03:19.

outlawed in the UK. At on Monday whether the Prime Minister had

:03:20.:03:22.

personally benefited from the company, Downing Street said it was

:03:23.:03:26.

a private matter. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron tried to draw a line under

:03:27.:03:30.

it all, saying I have no shares, no offshore trusts, no offshore funds,

:03:31.:03:32.

nothing like that. Later that day, Downing Street

:03:33.:03:36.

sent a clarification - to be clear, the Prime Minister,

:03:37.:03:38.

his wife and their children do not benefit from

:03:39.:03:40.

any offshore funds. On Wednesday, a fourth statement

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was issued by Downing Street - there are no offshore funds,

:03:43.:03:45.

trusts which the Prime Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children

:03:46.:03:47.

will benefit from in future. Under increasing pressure,

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David Cameron gave an interview to ITV on Thursday in which he

:03:52.:03:54.

revealed that he had sold his shares in Blairmore in 2010

:03:55.:03:58.

for just over ?30,000. The Prime Minister said the profits

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and dividends he and his wife Samantha made from the investment

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were subject to all UK taxes in normal ways,

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and legal opinion suggests Mr Cameron has done

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nothing illegal. But he has faced intense criticism

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over his handling of the story. says this has undermined the trust

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that we have in him. Mr Cameron has now published

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the headlines of his tax returns, They show that in addition

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to ?300,000 that he received after his father's death

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in September 2010, his mother gave him two gifts

:04:32.:04:34.

of ?100,000 each in 2011. Downing Street has

:04:35.:04:42.

vigorously denied suggestions that this was done

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to minimise tax paid on the estate. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

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and Energy Secretary Amber Rudd have both been talking about this

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on the Marr show this morning, we need to know what he has

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actually returned as a tax return. We need to know why he put this

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money overseas in the first place and whether he made anything out

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of it or not before 2010, These are questions

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that he must answer. is that the Prime Minister and

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his family have done nothing wrong. I mean, the independent tax expert

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at the start of this programme confirmed that,

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lots of independent tax experts We're joined now by our economics

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editor Kamal Ahmed, he's been You have been a busy man! For the

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first time ever we have seen a Prime Minister's tax returns, at least the

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headlines, what have we led? Well, it is interesting, isn't it? David

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Cameron has gone from suggesting a mere six days ago that this was a

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private matter to a sort of tax shock and awe, I will put it all out

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there, people can make decisions on the details. I have been scribbling

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down the details, and there is a lot there. It shows that he has earned

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over ?1 million since he has been Prime Minister, not just from his

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prime ministerial salary, but from other income, rental income. He has

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paid tax of about ?400,000, an effective rate of about 37%, which

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would be pretty normal. As we said at the top of the programme, he has

:06:30.:06:32.

revealed these two payments from his mother of ?100,000 each, which were

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gifted to him after his father died. And in the previous year he had

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300,000 from his father, as an inheritance. Downing Street said

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that his mother made the payments to the Prime Minister because his older

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brother had inherited the house, and she was trying to even up the sort

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of inheritance as it was shared out. As you look at that, the experts

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saying there was any kind of tax dodge involved in this, either from

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the estate or with the Prime Minister? I think the whole issue is

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what is avoidance and what is sensible tax planning. If you think

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that putting your savings into an Isa is tax avoidance, because it is

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tax free in terms of your investments, then you will probably

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think that this type of gifting is some form of tax avoidance. The only

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time it would become tax avoidance is it David Cameron's mother dies,

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this is a horrible way to have a conversation, but this is how the

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tax law works. If she dies before 2018, there is a seven year limit on

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gifts to your children. Her estate would pay the tax, and her children

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would have a share of a smaller pot of money. But the tax was put in

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place there two when sure that any gifts that are given, if they are

:07:46.:07:50.

given within seven years of the parents dying, still become liable

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for inheritance tax. So I think that the one big point is that David

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Cameron, as do nearly everybody, particularly if they are wealthy,

:08:03.:08:05.

has planned his tax affairs so that he pays no more tax than is

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necessary. Now, people might think that is morally wrong, but... He

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once said it was morally wrong, did he not? He was talking about

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aggressive tax avoidance. This is currently! This is very simple, very

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vanilla, things that would be available to anybody. I think what

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he was trying to say, all the difference that Downing Street would

:08:30.:08:32.

argue, was that it is different from the pop stars and the people in

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entertainment who used complicated funding mechanisms to avoid tax. And

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this, which is normal tax planning, in terms of what your tax adviser,

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if you are wealthy, would say to you. It is a watershed in British

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politics, two CDs tax returns, but are we not in danger of making too

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much out of them? -- to see these tax returns. I do not suggest the

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prime and has -- the minister has done anything wrong, but if you

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have, it would not be in your tax return. There is no suggestion that

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he has done anything wrong, but the watershed issue is around the

:09:16.:09:19.

long-held belief in law that your tax affairs are private. And what

:09:20.:09:24.

this has done is opened up, I would suggest, every Cabinet minister,

:09:25.:09:27.

every member of the government to the notion that they will have to

:09:28.:09:31.

publish not just this year's tax returns but six years of tax

:09:32.:09:35.

returns. And if they do not, the question will be, why are you not

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doing that? The Cabinet will be over the moon about that(!) Let's cut to

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the chase, it is almost did the Chancellor will have to publish his

:09:45.:09:48.

tax returns. I think so. There was an attempt to shut down the story

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once and for all by saying, here are his tax returns, the Prime Minister

:09:54.:10:03.

has done nothing wrong, but they have let the genie out of the

:10:04.:10:06.

bottle. The Chancellor will now be under pressure, other Cabinet

:10:07.:10:08.

ministers will be under pressure. Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting that

:10:09.:10:10.

people in public life more broadly should have to publish their tax

:10:11.:10:15.

returns. So it is a big moment in terms of transparency and demand is

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from the public for transparency, but if you think about it, this

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began with the MPs expenses, I would argue, and ever since then the

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public trust in politicians and in the way they behave has been on the

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slide, and this is a continuation of that, a continuation of the demand

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for transparency. John McDonnell has told the BBC, we will ensure that

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any donor linked to the Labour Party will not be using devices to evade

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tax. Good luck on that(!) HMRC have trouble figuring that out. This has

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a wider political significance, we are running up to the European

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referendum, the Prime Minister is mainly seen as the main asset in the

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Remain campaign, it is not great news when he is being dragged

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through the news like this. Luff, this is as bad a week of headlines I

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can remember since the Prime Minister entered office. -- no. It

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has not resulted in anyone being able to level an accusation that the

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Prime Minister that would stand up in a court of law. There is no

:11:24.:11:27.

suggestion that anyone is credibly making that he aggressively avoided

:11:28.:11:31.

tax. The question is, if that is the case, how has it ended up getting

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quite so bad for David Cameron? And I think at the heart of it has been

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an inability of Downing Street really to explain properly to people

:11:40.:11:43.

what is going on here, and I think that they are still, even morning,

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struggled to explain why, if he was doing nothing wrong, his father

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needed to set up a company in the Bahamas that used this anonymous

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form of company liability. That was the weakest part of the Prime

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Minister's statement in the week, that this investment vehicle,

:12:03.:12:05.

Blairmore, had not been set up to mitigate or avoid tax. I mean, if

:12:06.:12:11.

you register in Panama and operate out of the Bahamas, I mean, what

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else are you doing?! That is paid of the absurd, and we know that Ian

:12:19.:12:22.

Cameron made a living out of offering this sort of advice to very

:12:23.:12:25.

wealthy clients, and there was nothing wrong with that. When he set

:12:26.:12:30.

up his business, the political climate was absolutely different to

:12:31.:12:33.

what it is today. There was nothing wrong with what he was doing then.

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It was simply absurd of David Cameron to suggest that it was not

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set up for those reasons. I disagree about the weakest point, I think

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that was the private matter, you know, when David Cameron's

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spokeswoman suggested that this was a private matter, it all went

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downhill from there. I think today the headlines about inheritance tax

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and whether this is some kind of dodgy avoidance or evasion is

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something of a red herring. He has not, as Kamal said, done anything

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wrong, it is very standard practice, and there is a world of difference

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between evasion and avoidance. There is nothing fishy about this in

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particular. Kamal, you have been following this, the political

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ramifications still huge in that even if he loses the referendum, he

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is going, this will encourage, but even if he wins, the Tory party may

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see him, although we has done nothing wrong, as part of the

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walking wounded. On this issue, which has been interesting, the

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Conservative Party has lined up behind him. He has not been

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attacked, as he has over other issues, like George Osborne's Budget

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or Tata Steel, so this has been quite a unifying moment for the

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Conservative Party, interestingly. What it does that is dangerous is it

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makes the referendum much more of a vote about David Cameron, which is

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the last thing that people in Number Ten want it to be. Another busy

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weekend of you! Now is the UK safer in or out

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of the European Union? It's one of the central questions

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in the referendum debate Does membership help protect

:14:08.:14:09.

us against terrorist attacks, And are the big foreign policy

:14:10.:14:13.

challenges, like those posed by Russia or Iran,

:14:14.:14:16.

better tackled through the EU or with our other

:14:17.:14:19.

international partners alone? giving his view

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earlier in the week. We draw our strength

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as a country from the fact we are the fifth-biggest economy

:14:27.:14:28.

in the world, we have a special relationship with the United States,

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we are members of Nato, the G7, but we also get

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some strength from being in the European Union,

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the organisation for our continent that actually helps us,

:14:42.:14:45.

whether it is confronting Iran and making sure we don't have

:14:46.:14:47.

Iranian nuclear weapons, whether it is standing up

:14:48.:14:50.

to Vladimir Putin and his aggression in Ukraine, we are stronger

:14:51.:14:52.

by being part of this organisation. I'm joined now by a member

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of the Cameron government, the Armed Forces Minister

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Penny Mordaunt. She's campaigning for Britain

:15:02.:15:03.

to vote to leave the EU. The Prime Minister, the Defence

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Secretary, 12 former British defence chiefs all say our security is

:15:17.:15:18.

enhanced by remaining in. Those job titles, baked not

:15:19.:15:31.

arguments. I am very clear, having worn a uniform, three years on the

:15:32.:15:34.

House of Commons defence committee, being an aid worker in the former

:15:35.:15:39.

Eastern Bloc, we would be safer outside the EU. They are responsible

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for our security. One of them is your boss, that is his title. They

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think we are safer in. There is a lot of things we agree on. We agree

:15:54.:15:59.

that Nato is the cornerstone of our defence, but that the EU defence

:16:00.:16:02.

structures condiment that. If we were outside the EU, we would not

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lose anything from those structures. The common European defence policy

:16:10.:16:15.

and the procurement opportunities, the opportunities to partake in

:16:16.:16:20.

missions, they are open to non-EU member states and Nato, so we don't

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lose anything by leaving. We would gain massively the ability to take

:16:24.:16:30.

that control of our borders, just one example, if we were outside.

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Let's take the issue of what we would lose. Michael Fallon, you are

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in his department, he is a Eurosceptic, he says, if we left, it

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would be smaller and weaker, which is precisely what Vladimir Putin

:16:48.:16:51.

wants. He wants the EU to be smaller and weaker. You cannot deny that.

:16:52.:16:56.

The key issue is, what is the operational benefit that being in

:16:57.:17:02.

the EU or taking part in any of the defence structures and security

:17:03.:17:07.

structures that it plans on setting up, like a pan European intelligence

:17:08.:17:12.

agency, what is the benefit of that? I would argue there is none, and it

:17:13.:17:16.

frustrates our ability to share intelligence. We don't share

:17:17.:17:20.

intelligence with pan-European agencies, we share it with other

:17:21.:17:25.

nations are. I did not ask about that. I asked a geopolitical

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question, your boss says the EU would be smaller and weaker if we

:17:34.:17:36.

left, and that is precisely what the Kremlin wants. Do you deny that? In

:17:37.:17:42.

a time of austerity, when we are facing massive terror threats, if we

:17:43.:17:47.

are spending time, money and energy on anything that does not give as an

:17:48.:17:51.

operational advantage and a benefit in tackling those threats, that is

:17:52.:17:57.

crazy. Do you deny that it would leave us smaller and weaker and that

:17:58.:18:03.

is what Vladimir Putin wants? No. The thing that. Any malicious

:18:04.:18:07.

ambitions that anybody has against us, the Ukraine, other member states

:18:08.:18:13.

of the European Union is the success, the economic prosperity,

:18:14.:18:18.

the National security of those nation states. That is what will

:18:19.:18:22.

hold the threat that we are facing from Vladimir Putin and elsewhere.

:18:23.:18:28.

Philip Hammond says, it is only our enemies who want us to leave. Can

:18:29.:18:36.

you name a single ally that want us to leave? I can. People have

:18:37.:18:42.

different views in different nations. That is take our strongest

:18:43.:18:47.

ally, the United States. They want us to stay. That is what Barack

:18:48.:18:53.

Obama has said, but I would argue strongly, and there are many people

:18:54.:18:58.

there that would agree with me, the former head of the CIA is one,

:18:59.:19:10.

thinks that the EU is requiring of us of restricting our alliance with

:19:11.:19:13.

the United States. The official policy of America under Republican

:19:14.:19:18.

and Democratic presidents has been that we should stay in. That is a

:19:19.:19:24.

fact. That is their view, but it is not an argument. I asked if you

:19:25.:19:30.

could name a major or minor ally that we have that want us to leave.

:19:31.:19:36.

I have mentioned the United States. They want us to stay. Give me an

:19:37.:19:41.

ally that want us to leave. Australia, New Zealand, Canada,

:19:42.:19:48.

France, Germany? Our key relationships, they fully

:19:49.:19:54.

understand... Our relationship with them is threatened by legislation

:19:55.:20:03.

and requirements of the EU. The most sophisticated intelligence alliance

:20:04.:20:07.

in the world involves Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand,

:20:08.:20:14.

Canada, they want us to stay. I think they are wrong. The

:20:15.:20:18.

relationship that we have with them would be jeopardised and would be

:20:19.:20:23.

further jeopardised when we set up... That is their view. You have

:20:24.:20:30.

mentioned Nato, the general secretary says a strong EU with a

:20:31.:20:36.

strong Britain is good for Nato. The head of the US Army in Europe says

:20:37.:20:42.

leaving could weaken Nato. There are people that will argue that Nato is

:20:43.:20:47.

undermined by the EU structures. Not the head of Nato. The EU defence

:20:48.:20:51.

structures that we have complemented. But they are not

:20:52.:20:58.

closed off to us by leaving. The key issue about the threats we are

:20:59.:21:03.

facing, the threats that come with free movement of people and also

:21:04.:21:11.

with civil unrest on the continent, will be resolved by us leaving, by

:21:12.:21:15.

taking back control of our borders, our laws and money. And

:21:16.:21:21.

kick-starting reform in the EU. All of the parties that want us to

:21:22.:21:26.

leave, they are protectionist, xenophobic, authoritarian, against

:21:27.:21:30.

the single market, and they hope by us leaving, there will be chaos in

:21:31.:21:36.

Europe. Is that the chaos that would be good for our security? Vladimir

:21:37.:21:44.

Putin, you have mentioned, the rise of far right organisations in

:21:45.:21:49.

Europe, as a consequence of the forced harmonisation of the euro and

:21:50.:21:55.

the austerity and the problems that is bringing to member states, they

:21:56.:22:01.

have their arguments. They are not on my side, they are mistaken. What

:22:02.:22:09.

will ensure that those malicious ambitions against us are thwarted is

:22:10.:22:15.

if we have strong nation states. That is not what Europe is currently

:22:16.:22:19.

delivering. It is delivering weak states, states that don't have the

:22:20.:22:25.

money to put into their defence. The Prime Minister, the Defence

:22:26.:22:28.

Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, the head of Nato, the head of the US

:22:29.:22:33.

Army in Europe, all of our major allies, starting with America, think

:22:34.:22:38.

we are more secure and they would be more secure if we stay in, and you,

:22:39.:22:43.

a junior minister in the defence Department, say they are wrong. If

:22:44.:22:48.

they were all lined up in front of me, I would say freedom is never a

:22:49.:22:52.

gamble. We have gambled a huge amount in the past to preserve our

:22:53.:22:56.

freedom, we risk nothing by trying to take it back. If we take back

:22:57.:23:01.

control of our borders, we have got free movement of people, with the

:23:02.:23:07.

risk that brings... We are running out of time. In what way with being

:23:08.:23:13.

outside the EU make it easier for us to stop terrorists coming in?

:23:14.:23:23.

Europol estimate we have 5000 Daesh fighters that have returned to

:23:24.:23:30.

Europe. Unless we have concrete intelligence, we cannot turn them

:23:31.:23:37.

back. Are you saying that other Europeans would now need a visa to

:23:38.:23:41.

come to this country? How would you stop somebody with a European

:23:42.:23:45.

passport to come in? We could have control. We don't have those options

:23:46.:23:50.

now. If we had suspicions, we would stop them coming in. That is not

:23:51.:23:55.

correct. We stopped about 6000 people from the EU. On matters of

:23:56.:24:01.

security issues of public danger, we stopped around 500 a year, we can do

:24:02.:24:06.

that now, whether they have an EU passport or not. If we have sketchy

:24:07.:24:11.

intelligence, we cannot prevent them from coming in. Unless you have a

:24:12.:24:17.

Visa system from France and Germany, you could not direct. We risk

:24:18.:24:23.

nothing by taking back control of our borders and our laws that

:24:24.:24:29.

underpin this framework. It is not a gamble, staying in is a gamble,

:24:30.:24:34.

because it will only get worse. We have to take back control, that is

:24:35.:24:37.

what is required to keep our nation safe. Has the controversy around the

:24:38.:24:42.

Prime Minister damaged his credibility as leader of the Remain

:24:43.:24:50.

campaign? I don't think so. I don't have any other inside scoop, but I

:24:51.:24:54.

don't think he has done anything wrong. What this is about is trust

:24:55.:25:00.

and he has two now demonstrate and builder up that trust and report

:25:01.:25:05.

with the general public. This will raise questions, as your panel said,

:25:06.:25:11.

about politicians publishing further information about themselves, and

:25:12.:25:16.

although I understand argument around privacy and security, if that

:25:17.:25:20.

is what the electorate require of their officials, that is what will

:25:21.:25:21.

have to happen. We're now well into the campaign

:25:22.:25:24.

period for local and national elections

:25:25.:25:26.

across the UK on May 5th. With the Conservatives and Labour

:25:27.:25:28.

not exactly united at the moment you might think it's a perfect

:25:29.:25:31.

opportunity for Ukip, the party that won four million

:25:32.:25:33.

votes at last year's Even more so when the elections

:25:34.:25:35.

are being fought during an EU referendum campaign

:25:36.:25:39.

Nigel Farage helped bring about. So why instead are the men and women

:25:40.:25:43.

of his party so bitterly divided? All political parties have ups

:25:44.:25:50.

and downs, but mostly Ukip has been climbing the ladder

:25:51.:25:55.

of British politics. It's poised on the verge

:25:56.:25:57.

of a referendum it helped secure, offering the very thing the party

:25:58.:26:01.

was set up for. So why is it so short of funds

:26:02.:26:05.

and riven with in-fighting? Once-dominant Nigel Farage has lost

:26:06.:26:10.

control of parts of his party. The clearest example is being foiled

:26:11.:26:15.

by the party's ruling body over his prefered candidates

:26:16.:26:18.

for May elections in Wales. In particular, his desire to stop

:26:19.:26:22.

the selection of Neil Hamilton, Electoral concerns about Mr Hamilton

:26:23.:26:26.

are not new in Ukip. The Sunday Politics has

:26:27.:26:32.

been given a series In January 2015, Mr Hamilton

:26:33.:26:34.

complained to Nigel Farage he'd been branded as toxic by some

:26:35.:26:41.

inside the party. Michael McGough, a general-election

:26:42.:26:44.

candidate, emailed Mr Hamilton In every article that you feature,

:26:45.:26:47.

your name has the appendage "disgraced former Tory MP",

:26:48.:26:54.

and sadly this will continue. And on the same day an email

:26:55.:27:06.

from the then-party treasurer Andrew Reid accused Mr Hamilton,

:27:07.:27:10.

by then a longstanding Ukip-er, of behaving exactly

:27:11.:27:14.

as he'd been portrayed.. If you looked at the Welsh assembly

:27:15.:27:47.

elections, those are a great example of their tendency to shoot itself in

:27:48.:27:54.

the foot. You have some very Eurosceptic areas, but yet Ukip has

:27:55.:27:59.

become embroiled in a dispute over which of its candidates should stand

:28:00.:28:03.

where and whether it should be standing former Conservatives in

:28:04.:28:06.

mainly industrial parts of the country.

:28:07.:28:08.

The infighting didn't stop with Neil Hamilton,

:28:09.:28:10.

with 16 candidates signing a letter demanding that another candidate,

:28:11.:28:12.

Gareth Bennett, be deselected because he had expressed a negative

:28:13.:28:17.

view of other candidates, undermined the party

:28:18.:28:20.

and our own ability to campaign through his offensive

:28:21.:28:23.

and borderline-racist comments about immigrants to Wales.

:28:24.:28:31.

The party's National Executive Council did not deselect him and two

:28:32.:28:34.

other candidates have since stood down.

:28:35.:28:37.

Nigel Farage has been repeatedly outvoted by the NEC,

:28:38.:28:40.

leading Mr Farage to consider abolishing it.

:28:41.:28:44.

However, the Sunday Politics has learned just this week

:28:45.:28:47.

a representative of the NEC hostile to Nigel Farage angrily accosted

:28:48.:28:52.

a Welsh Ukip staffer in the Cardiff office,

:28:53.:28:54.

saying, "I've come to find which faction you are in,

:28:55.:28:58.

And Neil isn't the only colleague Nigel has fallen out with.

:28:59.:29:05.

Just two weeks ago, Suzanne Evans, seen by many as one of the party's

:29:06.:29:09.

best performers, ended up in the extraordinary position

:29:10.:29:12.

of taking the party to the High Court to overturn

:29:13.:29:15.

a suspension that also barred her from standing

:29:16.:29:18.

If people cannot come together and unite behind the main principles of

:29:19.:29:32.

the party, maybe they are in the wrong party and they should take

:29:33.:29:35.

their personal career ambitions to another party.

:29:36.:29:36.

On top of this, insiders have told the Sunday Politics Ukip's in severe

:29:37.:29:39.

Staff have been laid off, or unpaid for months,

:29:40.:29:43.

membership is down and candidates are expected to contribute

:29:44.:29:45.

in the thousands to their own campaigns.

:29:46.:29:48.

Stuart Wheeler, a donor who's given Ukip over 600K in the past six

:29:49.:29:52.

years, told us he hasn't donated to the party since last year and has

:29:53.:29:56.

Paul Sykes, who contributed to Ukip's 2014 European elections

:29:57.:30:06.

campaign, is no longer funding the party.

:30:07.:30:10.

Ukip doesn't control the funding Parliament gives to an opposition

:30:11.:30:13.

Currently 212K a year, that's controlled by the party's

:30:14.:30:19.

one MP, Douglas Carswell, who turned down the original sum

:30:20.:30:23.

of 670K and as a result fell out with Nigel Farage.

:30:24.:30:30.

We've learned that until recently the security bill for Mr Farage

:30:31.:30:35.

around a third of all monthly membership fees.

:30:36.:30:41.

The sum may now be lower, and is not now funded by the party.

:30:42.:30:46.

The party also paid Facebook ?90,000 in the year of the general election.

:30:47.:30:51.

Senior figures are split, supporting rival campaigns

:30:52.:30:57.

for leaving the European Union, both vying to be

:30:58.:30:59.

Nigel Farage is determined that it will be Grassroots Out rather

:31:00.:31:08.

than rivals Vote Leave that wins that designation, to be

:31:09.:31:12.

One donor who is still giving to Ukip, ?50,000 to the Welsh

:31:13.:31:17.

campaign last week, is Arron Banks, a key figure in Grassroots Out.

:31:18.:31:21.

We have been told by numerous sources that Nigel Farage wants

:31:22.:31:24.

to restructure and revamp Ukip after the referendum,

:31:25.:31:26.

and that they think Arron Banks would be chairman

:31:27.:31:28.

I did not say rebranded as much, but I have watched the five Star

:31:29.:31:43.

Movement in Italy, basically, an online party, where people can join

:31:44.:31:48.

for modest sums of money, but have a say in choosing the direction of the

:31:49.:31:52.

party, a sense that the old membership models are a bit

:31:53.:31:53.

outdated. His critics think he extends

:31:54.:31:54.

that view to the NEC. His supporters say such

:31:55.:31:58.

a digital model would also make this troublesome body for Mr Farage

:31:59.:32:00.

redunant and let him take back control of a party that right now

:32:01.:32:03.

is far from at ease with itself. And we're joined in the studio

:32:04.:32:09.

now by Neil Hamilton, he's a former deputy chairman

:32:10.:32:12.

of Ukip, and he's hoping to become one of the party's first members

:32:13.:32:14.

of the Welsh Assembly. Welcome to the programme. Ukip was

:32:15.:32:23.

created to bring about a referendum on the EU, you have got one, why is

:32:24.:32:28.

the party in such chaos? It is a fantastic achievement for Ukip to

:32:29.:32:32.

have brought this referendum to the people of Britain, but Ukip has

:32:33.:32:36.

grown up very rapidly in the last few years. It is only in the last

:32:37.:32:40.

four or five years that it has become a mainstream political party,

:32:41.:32:44.

and I suppose... These are the growing pains of such a party. It is

:32:45.:32:51.

basically about jockeying for position, and you get these personal

:32:52.:32:56.

feuds in all parties. I lived through the Major government and the

:32:57.:33:00.

Thatcher government, where we saw it in spades, this is nothing compared

:33:01.:33:04.

to the Conservative Party. A crucial issue that has exposed the visions

:33:05.:33:08.

within the party, which of the rival campaign should get the official

:33:09.:33:11.

designation from the Electoral Commission, which one do you want to

:33:12.:33:17.

get it? Well, I have taken a neutral position all along, because we have

:33:18.:33:20.

to work with whoever gets the designation, and I am a great

:33:21.:33:26.

admirer of Arron Banks, he has made a fantastic contribution. There can

:33:27.:33:31.

only be one. Years Nigel's preferred vehicle. I am asking your view. I am

:33:32.:33:37.

ambivalent, I will unite behind whoever gets the designation, the

:33:38.:33:40.

Electoral Commission will announce the decision in the coming weeks, so

:33:41.:33:44.

this will be an argument in the past. How much trouble is there

:33:45.:33:49.

between Mr Farage and the party's ruling national executive committee?

:33:50.:33:54.

Well, Nigel is a member of and a frequent at tender at the NEC.

:33:55.:33:58.

Because he is the party leader and a strong and dominant individual,

:33:59.:34:05.

without whom Ukip is -- would not be where it is today, it does not mean

:34:06.:34:10.

he get his way on everything, we are a Democratic Party. The NEC is a

:34:11.:34:14.

vigorous forum for debate, that is a healthy situation. Will he try to

:34:15.:34:18.

change that after the referendum, will there be a Farage coup? Just

:34:19.:34:22.

because you read it in the newspapers does not mean it is true,

:34:23.:34:28.

of course! I have no window into Nigel's mind on this. Should he? I

:34:29.:34:34.

am not seeing anybody who knows anything about this, apart from

:34:35.:34:38.

whoever wrote the piece in the having done post. Should he continue

:34:39.:34:44.

as leader? He was elected just two years ago, he can go on for three

:34:45.:34:50.

years before going for re-elections. I am asking for your view. I think

:34:51.:34:53.

years before going for re-elections. he will continue as leader beyond

:34:54.:34:57.

the referendum. The world after the referendum will be a very different

:34:58.:35:03.

kettle of fish... I am asking your view, should he continue as leader

:35:04.:35:09.

after the referendum? I think there will be a widespread re-evaluation

:35:10.:35:11.

of work Ukip is after the referendum. We are going to win

:35:12.:35:17.

seats in the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Government and the Northern

:35:18.:35:20.

Ireland Assembly, and we will then have various representatives... Let

:35:21.:35:26.

me try one more time, after the referendum, should he step down?

:35:27.:35:29.

me try one more time, after the Should there be a new leader, in

:35:30.:35:32.

your view? I am not going to call for Nigel to stand down, I am

:35:33.:35:39.

perfectly certain that if there were an election for leader, party

:35:40.:35:41.

members would vote for Nigel overwhelmingly. This is a nonissue.

:35:42.:35:47.

When was the last time you spoke to him? Several weeks ago, when he came

:35:48.:35:51.

to the NEC meeting last month. You used to be great mates. We still

:35:52.:35:59.

are, it is like a married couple who have been together quite a long

:36:00.:36:03.

time, you have ups and downs, he throws China at me, I figured up and

:36:04.:36:08.

put it on the mantelpiece. He blocked you from standing in the

:36:09.:36:11.

general election, you were removed as deputy chairman in February, he

:36:12.:36:16.

wanted you off the list in Wales, all part of the division and chaos

:36:17.:36:22.

that Farage and Hamilton dynamic. Ukip is a life political

:36:23.:36:26.

institution, people have... There are personality feuds and

:36:27.:36:31.

difficulties. I do not think we lose anything by saying that we are

:36:32.:36:34.

normal red-blooded individuals and have the same kind of tips that

:36:35.:36:40.

other parties have. Ukip is strengthened by these kinds of

:36:41.:36:46.

scraps, I think. We heard some of the e-mails about you, does it

:36:47.:36:50.

disturb you that some members regard you as a controversial, even a toxic

:36:51.:36:56.

vigour in the party? Well, this is all exaggerated. It is just tittle

:36:57.:37:03.

tattle. That was one e-mail amongst many thousands of e-mails I have

:37:04.:37:09.

had. There were several e-mails, articles said that your name has the

:37:10.:37:15.

appendage disgraced former Tory MP. Hearty members do not seem to be too

:37:16.:37:19.

bothered about that, because they voted for me in overwhelming numbers

:37:20.:37:23.

to be the candidate in the Welsh assembly in my region. -- party

:37:24.:37:29.

members. I topped the poll in the national executive elections with

:37:30.:37:31.

the highest number of votes anybody has ever got in an NEC election. I

:37:32.:37:39.

would have thought it may be a lesson learned, expenses. That was a

:37:40.:37:45.

misrepresentation, and the innuendo was entirely dismissed after an

:37:46.:37:49.

internal investigation. So you did not claim for staying at your wife's

:37:50.:37:54.

place? I am not going to go into what I did or did not claim for in

:37:55.:38:01.

my expenses when I was the Ukip campaign director. I had a pay

:38:02.:38:05.

package which was agreed, and all my pay and expenses were legitimate.

:38:06.:38:10.

You know, the key point here is that Ukip is now a major player in the

:38:11.:38:15.

land, we will elect ten members to the Welsh assembly... You have said

:38:16.:38:18.

that, and you hope to be one of them. Would you ever see yourself as

:38:19.:38:25.

the future leader of Ukip? At my age, your age? We are

:38:26.:38:28.

contemporaries! I do not see myself as a future leader. That is be

:38:29.:38:30.

enough, Neil Hamilton. It's just gone 11:35,

:38:31.:38:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome

:38:34.:38:42.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. Ukip launched its Scottish

:38:43.:38:44.

manifesto this week - we'll be speaking to David Coburn

:38:45.:38:50.

about its proposals and asking if the party is too British

:38:51.:38:53.

to do well in Scotland. An invigorated Scottish Green Party

:38:54.:38:55.

is fighting its We'll ask Patrick Harvie

:38:56.:38:57.

if they can win enough The offshore banking industry has

:38:58.:39:01.

taken a beating this week, but is there a legitimate role

:39:02.:39:10.

for the tax haven? Ukip's Scottish leader David Coburn

:39:11.:39:16.

contrasts his party with the "tired old establishment parties

:39:17.:39:21.

which spout the same old havers". As he launched its manifesto

:39:22.:39:23.

alongside Nigel Farage in Edinburgh on Thursday, he promised to shake up

:39:24.:39:27.

Holyrood with additional tax bands, a reintroduction of smoking rooms

:39:28.:39:33.

in pubs, a relaxation of airgun licences and revision

:39:34.:39:35.

of the new drink-driving limits. But the party has yet to win

:39:36.:39:37.

a seat in the parliament. Huw Williams has been finding out

:39:38.:39:40.

what Ukip needs to do In the published their Holyrood

:39:41.:39:58.

manifesto on Thursday. They set out their long-term aim to cut income

:39:59.:40:02.

tax, reduced the Scottish Government's budget, raise the

:40:03.:40:07.

drink-drive limit back to the level it falls across the rest of the UK

:40:08.:40:08.

drink-drive limit back to the level and to allow pubs and clubs to bring

:40:09.:40:13.

back smoking rooms. Their leader David Cockburn was born in Glasgow,

:40:14.:40:17.

he worked as an art dealer and a city trader and served in the

:40:18.:40:21.

Territorial Army. He hit the headlines last year when he compared

:40:22.:40:25.

the Scottish Government minister to a convicted terrorist. He apologised

:40:26.:40:26.

and said it was a joke. The polls a convicted terrorist. He apologised

:40:27.:40:35.

suggest the message of Ukip resonates with some Scottish waters.

:40:36.:40:38.

Central to the success of Ukip throughout the UK has been its

:40:39.:40:41.

stance on immigration, the idea that everywhere in the European Union we

:40:42.:40:45.

could have less immigration. Whilst Scotland is not as concerned as

:40:46.:40:48.

England is about immigration, it could be said that this is one thing

:40:49.:40:52.

north of the border that Ukip could hope to score on.

:40:53.:40:55.

It seems the party faced some real problems when it comes to selling

:40:56.:40:59.

the message in Scotland. The difficulty north of the border

:41:00.:41:05.

is that Ukip seems to be seen as an English party and that does not go

:41:06.:41:08.

down well here. It is clear that Scotland is much keener on the

:41:09.:41:12.

meaning inside the European Union than most of England and Wales, and

:41:13.:41:18.

therefore, this is the difficult for Ukip to make progress here.

:41:19.:41:23.

Ukip have never had an MSP elected to serve at Holyrood. The party

:41:24.:41:28.

would point out it is just two years since the reader became Ukip's first

:41:29.:41:32.

elected representative in Scotland when he won a European Parliament

:41:33.:41:34.

receipt. -- seat. David Coburn joins me now. Do you

:41:35.:41:48.

think Nigel Farage will continue as Ukip Leader wish absolutely, we did

:41:49.:41:53.

not have our referendum if it was not for him.

:41:54.:41:59.

This issue that has come up this week, a former Ukip candidate, Jack

:42:00.:42:03.

Newell, he appeared on the front of The Herald. You said you would think

:42:04.:42:09.

about how to react. Have you decided?

:42:10.:42:13.

I did not know what he was up to. I was told that he was wearing the

:42:14.:42:17.

outfit of the clouds and sitting in his bath playing an electric organ.

:42:18.:42:22.

That is not smart. He is a student, he has done something extremely

:42:23.:42:25.

stupid and he did not realise the impact of what he was doing. He

:42:26.:42:29.

should not be doing things like that. When people join the party,

:42:30.:42:36.

they pay their 30 quiet. We do not have a window into their souls or a

:42:37.:42:39.

crystal ball to see what they will do next. If they do something daft,

:42:40.:42:47.

we will have a word and sort it out. You do not have a crystal ball but

:42:48.:42:50.

you know what he has now done. Will you suspend him from the party?

:42:51.:42:53.

That is not for me to tell you, it is for the party's disciplinary

:42:54.:42:57.

committee. Would you like to apologise?

:42:58.:43:04.

I think he has done that. He said, "This is what it chapters

:43:05.:43:08.

for entertainment." If you sit in your back-up naked it

:43:09.:43:14.

their static sampling and organ, that is a silly student and he has

:43:15.:43:19.

done something bad. I am sure he is in Paris. -- bathtub.

:43:20.:43:24.

Let me tell you this constructively as I possibly can. What about the

:43:25.:43:32.

remarks you made about Humza Yousaf? The SNP have been accused of all

:43:33.:43:35.

sorts of things. Accusations have been made against them as they are

:43:36.:43:39.

against all parties. This happens, we cannot control it all. It does

:43:40.:43:45.

not relate to us. Ukip are the most Liberal Party you can possibly

:43:46.:43:50.

imagine, we are Libertarian party. We cannot get more broad-minded than

:43:51.:43:56.

that. A lot of people watching this

:43:57.:43:58.

programme might agree with you on issues like Europe and immigration,

:43:59.:44:01.

but the problem Ukip has always had is that people think, actually, it

:44:02.:44:05.

is not a mainstream party, scratch the surface...

:44:06.:44:07.

The only people that think that the press and they do that because they

:44:08.:44:10.

are part of the establishment and they do not like the fact that we

:44:11.:44:15.

can do well, we will go in and shake up the establishment. They are

:44:16.:44:20.

terrified of that. You do not intend to take any

:44:21.:44:24.

further action? It is not my place to do with this,

:44:25.:44:28.

it is for the disciplinary part of the party. I would not want to do

:44:29.:44:34.

anything to put a case before that. That is not part of my business.

:44:35.:44:39.

You are the only party who has published a manifesto for the

:44:40.:44:42.

Scottish elections. Absolutely. The good thing about it

:44:43.:44:46.

is that the Glasgow Herald had nothing to see how good our

:44:47.:44:49.

manifesto was. So they started to bring this nonsense into it.

:44:50.:44:56.

You want a 30p rate of tax. Yes, for the ?350,000 group.

:44:57.:45:05.

Once George Osborne lowers his tax threshold, are you still suggesting

:45:06.:45:07.

Once George Osborne lowers his tax that you're 30p would be there?

:45:08.:45:12.

This is an aspiration. We will not be in government, we would love to

:45:13.:45:16.

be, but we will not be. I do not think that Scotland should have

:45:17.:45:20.

taxes higher than those in England. That is your... Under your manifesto

:45:21.:45:26.

proposals as they currently stand, some in Scotland would pay more tax

:45:27.:45:31.

than in England on some of their income? Once George Osborne takes

:45:32.:45:38.

the 40p there showed up to 50,000, someone who was earning ?58,000

:45:39.:45:42.

would pay ?30 under your proposals on some of their income but only 20p

:45:43.:45:46.

in England. We want to broaden it out. That will

:45:47.:45:50.

not be the case. That flatly contradicts almost the

:45:51.:45:53.

first thing you have said in your manifesto.

:45:54.:45:57.

That is our aspiration. That is what we want.

:45:58.:46:03.

Your manifesto states you oppose any suggestions that would result in the

:46:04.:46:06.

income tax being higher than the rest of the UK.

:46:07.:46:11.

That is correct. I do not understand what you are talking about, it is

:46:12.:46:15.

quite clear. What is quite clear is that you

:46:16.:46:19.

would be charging higher tax in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

:46:20.:46:23.

This is what a Ukip government would want to do in the future. We are

:46:24.:46:27.

concerned with the government in London at the moment and we would

:46:28.:46:30.

want in Scotland, and in England, the same thing. We want a medal 30p

:46:31.:46:36.

band rate. That seems sensible to me. But we are not in government and

:46:37.:46:40.

we do not expect to be in government this time around, that is very

:46:41.:46:44.

clear. But we want to be aiming towards this and that seems sensible

:46:45.:46:49.

to me. But what you have just told me is

:46:50.:46:52.

that there would be some people undergo a proposal in Scotland who

:46:53.:46:55.

would pay more income tax than in England.

:46:56.:46:58.

There are always winners and losers but it would be fair across the

:46:59.:47:02.

bans, it is more sensible. Even if people in Scotland end up

:47:03.:47:06.

paying more tax? Some things we have to be a little

:47:07.:47:11.

bit more and sometimes a little bit less.

:47:12.:47:13.

How can I screw that with the statement that I have just read?

:47:14.:47:16.

We have different circumstances at the moment. When we have a Ukip

:47:17.:47:20.

government, that is what we want. That is what we are aiming for,

:47:21.:47:24.

seems clear to me. I do not see how one scorers with

:47:25.:47:28.

the other. What realistically did want to achieve in this election?

:47:29.:47:35.

Our objective is to make sure that Scotland has taxes no higher than

:47:36.:47:38.

that of the best of the UK. What I would like to see... Please, let me

:47:39.:47:46.

finish. Jobs, jobs, jobs. We want to create jobs and in Scotland we do

:47:47.:47:50.

not want Scotland to be putting a penny on this and that, that will

:47:51.:47:54.

not help the Scottish economy. How many seeds you think you were

:47:55.:47:58.

one or would you like to win? I would like to break through.

:47:59.:48:06.

According to... Getting an MSP, that would be a

:48:07.:48:09.

victory for do? I am trying to answer your question.

:48:10.:48:14.

From what I can see in the polls, they survey should pull in the

:48:15.:48:17.

e-mail and Andy Daily Record, which is no friend of Ukip, neither are

:48:18.:48:22.

particularly friendly to Ukip, they have said we will get seven seats.

:48:23.:48:28.

That would be nice, very happy to have them, but if we can get any

:48:29.:48:31.

seeds, I would be happy. If you get one MSP, you would say

:48:32.:48:37.

that was a step forward as far as you are concerned?

:48:38.:48:40.

Yes, I would like to get more but it is up to the Scottish people. We

:48:41.:48:43.

will have to wait and see what happens. As I have told you, it

:48:44.:48:49.

looks like seven seats. We have many people coming from the other

:48:50.:48:52.

parties. The Labour Party is imploding in Scotland. Many can

:48:53.:48:55.

never stomach voting for the Conservatives. As for the Scottish

:48:56.:49:01.

national scum are many are frightened as to what is happening

:49:02.:49:05.

in Europe. They have seen what happens to smaller countries in

:49:06.:49:09.

Europe if they do not agree with the European Union. Austerity and

:49:10.:49:16.

suchlike. Greece was forced to be... Are you standing in any of the

:49:17.:49:19.

constituencies? No, we are not. We are trying to get

:49:20.:49:24.

everyone to vote for us on the list. So you are pitching to people... Who

:49:25.:49:28.

should they vote for? They should vote for Ukip and they

:49:29.:49:34.

should put as much fought in there as possible.

:49:35.:49:37.

So they should vote for you even though you are not putting up any

:49:38.:49:40.

candidates? I did not suggest that. I believe we

:49:41.:49:46.

will not win many seeds in the first past the post. It is a tactical

:49:47.:49:48.

decision. Who should the rest vote for?

:49:49.:49:59.

That is up to them. On the list, I want is to get first preference or

:50:00.:50:02.

many people's second preference. That would be fine. I think we are

:50:03.:50:06.

getting a lot of second preference votes, not only from Labour voters

:50:07.:50:10.

but the SNP and disgruntled conservatives who are opposed to the

:50:11.:50:16.

European Union. I know you have been very busy

:50:17.:50:19.

campaigning, have you had time to buy a new toaster? You said your old

:50:20.:50:23.

one in the European Union, you could not get brown toast.

:50:24.:50:31.

Yes, my toast is not good. The coasters have less power in them.

:50:32.:50:36.

When I made that thing, they came out and said that they had a plan

:50:37.:50:40.

but they would not bring it in. They have postponed until after the

:50:41.:50:46.

referendum. How interesting is that? Let me give you a tip, go shopping,

:50:47.:50:52.

I think you will find a toaster that will be suitable.

:50:53.:50:55.

I will do that, Gordon, since we have spent so much time together.

:50:56.:50:59.

Thank you, David Coburn. Thank you.

:51:00.:51:04.

The Scottish Greens will head to the polls for its fifth Holyrood

:51:05.:51:07.

election, fielding candidates in all eight regions.

:51:08.:51:09.

The party received a significant boost following the independent

:51:10.:51:11.

referendum in September and now boasts over 9,000 members.

:51:12.:51:13.

It confidently predicts that it can push the parliament to be bolder,

:51:14.:51:16.

and is hoping to improve upon the two MSPs that sat

:51:17.:51:19.

Huw Williams has been assessing their chances.

:51:20.:51:25.

The Scottish Greens publish their Holyrood manifesto this

:51:26.:51:29.

The Scottish Greens publish their Patrick Harvie said when he joined

:51:30.:51:32.

the party in 2000 they had around 500 members. Membership is now

:51:33.:51:38.

around 9000. He is from Dumbarton and disgrace himself as a fan of

:51:39.:51:40.

real ale, real food, science fiction and disgrace himself as a fan of

:51:41.:51:47.

and free software. He wants a ban on fracking and it switch away from

:51:48.:51:51.

fossil fuels. There is no doubt that the broad

:51:52.:51:55.

Green idea that we need to look after the environment, we should be

:51:56.:51:59.

concerned about climate change, and we should be changing energy

:52:00.:52:04.

production Scotland towards renewables, in principle at least,

:52:05.:52:07.

is something that is pretty widespread, at least not of the

:52:08.:52:10.

border. But polls suggest voters may not be

:52:11.:52:14.

so keen on those ideas if they mean inconvenience or cost more.

:52:15.:52:20.

There is a problem with principle to practice, particularly whether or

:52:21.:52:23.

not it means we may have to pay more or do less of what we like in order

:52:24.:52:28.

to help the environment. Asking us to use our cars less, to pay to go

:52:29.:52:33.

into cities or indeed pay more on petrol, at that point, it becomes

:52:34.:52:38.

rather more difficult to persuade people to change.

:52:39.:52:44.

Key catchphrases in the Green us campaign will be the call for

:52:45.:52:49.

Holyrood to be bolder and for Scotland to achieve more. They can

:52:50.:52:54.

party, under Patrick Harvie's leadership, really did better than

:52:55.:52:59.

2003, when a record number of seven Green MSPs were elected.

:53:00.:53:01.

of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie.

:53:02.:53:06.

I enjoyed that image of my freshfaced youth there!

:53:07.:53:14.

OK! Let's start with tax. You want a 60p rate. The SNP say they can't

:53:15.:53:19.

raise tax take even a 50p for people who are more than ?150,000. They say

:53:20.:53:25.

that because partly because people will leave the country, and partly

:53:26.:53:29.

because people will choose to pay their tax in different ways.

:53:30.:53:33.

Why do you think they're wrong? It's clear they do have the ability.

:53:34.:53:38.

The Scottish Government, the next Scottish Government under the new

:53:39.:53:41.

Scotland act will have the ability to set those bands. They are talking

:53:42.:53:46.

about tax competition, that they simply have to offer high income

:53:47.:53:50.

people the lowest tax environment, otherwise they will disappear. I

:53:51.:53:54.

just don't buy that argument that the majority of people, even in that

:53:55.:54:01.

hire additional tax band by the type of selfish individuals who would

:54:02.:54:05.

operate their family and disappear- presumably not taking their current

:54:06.:54:06.

operate their family and disappear- job with them but going to another

:54:07.:54:09.

job elsewhere- simply because they wish to avoid more attacks on the

:54:10.:54:15.

highest element of their income. Remember, we are talking what they

:54:16.:54:19.

earn over and above ?150,000. So these are people who are very

:54:20.:54:23.

wealthy, I think it is quite reasonable that they pay a bit more.

:54:24.:54:29.

But don't the SNP have a point when they say that people want just

:54:30.:54:33.

leave, there are things you can do. You can choose to take your taxes

:54:34.:54:37.

capital gains tax. There was the chap involved in private equity who

:54:38.:54:41.

said he pays less tax and is cleaner. That is not what they were

:54:42.:54:45.

doing, taking capital gains and pink capital gains tax, which is lower

:54:46.:54:49.

than high-street income tax, and this is the point the SNP may, not

:54:50.:54:55.

under the control of the Scottish Government. And secondly you can

:54:56.:54:59.

take tax on dividends from shares, which is lower than the highest rate

:55:00.:55:03.

of income tax. And also, as the SNP say, it is not under the control of

:55:04.:55:06.

Scottish Government. They have a point? There are

:55:07.:55:11.

certainly opportunities that high income or high wealth people who are

:55:12.:55:14.

motivated purely by greed, and I again say, I think that is the

:55:15.:55:18.

minority. There are opportunities that some of them have two hide tax

:55:19.:55:24.

and hide their income or pay in a different way through a shell

:55:25.:55:27.

company or what have you. They themselves so they are working for a

:55:28.:55:32.

company they in fact owner. This is a problem for every country, not

:55:33.:55:36.

just for Scotland. Not just for Scotland gaining tax powers within

:55:37.:55:40.

the UK. Not just for the UK, it is a problem for every country. There is

:55:41.:55:44.

a great deal we have to do to stigmatise that sort of behaviour

:55:45.:55:48.

and make it less possible. There are always can do that, for example in

:55:49.:55:51.

the public sector, where public sector high-paid jobs, some of which

:55:52.:55:53.

I would like to see brought within a sector high-paid jobs, some of which

:55:54.:55:59.

reasonable pay ratio, but as long as they exist we can make it clear that

:56:00.:56:01.

public sector employers will not they exist we can make it clear that

:56:02.:56:05.

cooperate with those activities. The Scottish Government as well has

:56:06.:56:08.

business support services, grants and loans and services that it

:56:09.:56:16.

provides with tax payers' money. Employers can not participate in a

:56:17.:56:18.

moral... See you think the SNP just like the

:56:19.:56:22.

courage of their convictions? I think that surprised many people

:56:23.:56:25.

that they are not put forward a radical, progressive approach to

:56:26.:56:30.

taxation. We're not just talking about the 60p rate, it is really

:56:31.:56:33.

important to remember the Green proposals are talking about the

:56:34.:56:37.

average income and salary. Anyone paying the average would pay less

:56:38.:56:43.

underarm proposals. And that is what? ?26,000. Under

:56:44.:56:52.

proposals if you're of a lack to be paying about ?2 per month more in

:56:53.:56:58.

tax. Someone on, for example, and MS people's salary with the paying

:56:59.:57:03.

more. MSPs earn a lot more than that. The funds in public services

:57:04.:57:12.

should close the gap. We are going to continue to see an credible

:57:13.:57:15.

social and economic costs that we do not deserve to bear in the society.

:57:16.:57:20.

Young people who want see the opportunities that will be created

:57:21.:57:23.

in new sustainable industries in Scotland.

:57:24.:57:28.

Housing that needs to be built. If you're going to put tax up for

:57:29.:57:30.

Housing that needs to be built. If everyone who wants more than the

:57:31.:57:32.

average, what do you want the money for?

:57:33.:57:36.

It's very clear that there are macro cuts coming to our public services

:57:37.:57:41.

as a result of the UK Government. A Scottish Government in the next

:57:42.:57:44.

session will have the powers to reverse those cuts any fear,

:57:45.:57:47.

progressive way. More specifically, what do you want

:57:48.:57:51.

to spend more money on? Local services that a great many

:57:52.:57:57.

people depend upon. Care services where we have seen people

:57:58.:57:59.

historically underpaid for care work. Whether that is paid care in

:58:00.:58:03.

local authorities or the third sector, or the carer's allowance for

:58:04.:58:08.

unpaid carers who deserve some sort of recompense. We would like to see

:58:09.:58:13.

that increased by 50%. There are opportunities to invest in the

:58:14.:58:18.

education of young people need. How much will you tax increases

:58:19.:58:21.

raise? The income tax proposals we have

:58:22.:58:29.

proposed will raise ?231 million. We are making it clear that the

:58:30.:58:33.

proposals were making our about local council setting the rate. If

:58:34.:58:41.

councils set it at 7p on the pounds, it would raise about the same as

:58:42.:58:45.

council tax. This is to protect public services and invest in the

:58:46.:58:49.

homes, jobs and services that our country needs. We have a critical

:58:50.:58:53.

decision to make- do we want to continue this race to the bottom,

:58:54.:58:56.

not just in taxation, but in the quality of our public services and

:58:57.:59:01.

investment in our economy. A lot of people watching this will

:59:02.:59:05.

save this sounds just like what Labour say. It is just

:59:06.:59:09.

tax-and-spend. It's not that you have any ideas for raising tax and

:59:10.:59:13.

doing anything innovative original, you just want to spend money?

:59:14.:59:20.

We have set very clearly ways of raising revenue and ways we think it

:59:21.:59:23.

can be done fairly. We've also set out a report on how Scotland needs

:59:24.:59:29.

to invest in jobs which will replace those industries which do not have

:59:30.:59:32.

an infinite life ahead of them. We've been arguing for a transition

:59:33.:59:38.

away from fossil fuels. We have also been arguing in the long-term and

:59:39.:59:41.

short-term this can be good for people's wallets. Wasting less money

:59:42.:59:46.

on energy that is going out the window.

:59:47.:59:49.

Anyone who is paid more than the average will be paying more income

:59:50.:59:53.

tax. Presumably, you would like them to pay more tax on fuel as well?

:59:54.:59:58.

Yet we're all going to be better off? Fuel duty is being devolved, --

:59:59.:00:06.

not being devolved, some are not quick to set out... Public transport

:00:07.:00:11.

is always the better option. You see the type of countries that get

:00:12.:00:16.

public transport and walking and cycling infrastructure right, they

:00:17.:00:18.

have world-class services because they know they need to invest and

:00:19.:00:22.

protect that investment. Some of them so have their own book we owned

:00:23.:00:27.

railway companies. One of them, they're publicly owned railway is

:00:28.:00:30.

running one of our Railways! I don't see why we can't have a publicly

:00:31.:00:36.

owned railway we can invest in. And all these countries you mention

:00:37.:00:40.

are economically doing less well this moment than the United Kingdom.

:00:41.:00:45.

Depends what you mean by less well. Greens have always argued we

:00:46.:00:48.

shouldn't just judge a record in terms of GDP. GDP doesn't tell you

:00:49.:00:53.

in whose interest the money is working. I economy is doing terribly

:00:54.:00:58.

at protecting the well being of those for now register being

:00:59.:01:02.

dependent on foodbanks. I think our economy is doing terribly at

:01:03.:01:05.

protecting the well being of those who are in industries which are

:01:06.:01:08.

coming to the end of their lives, and we're not investing in the

:01:09.:01:12.

alternatives. I was doing terribly at having a

:01:13.:01:15.

much lower rate of unemployment than countries like France and Spain?

:01:16.:01:20.

When George Osborne talks about a low rate of unemployment, he is

:01:21.:01:24.

looking great people who are in precarious unemployment, people in

:01:25.:01:26.

zero hours contracts. Hang on, if I was... I think it is

:01:27.:01:34.

about 50% of young people and Spain who are unemployed and can't find a

:01:35.:01:39.

job. I think I would say, precarious employment sounds absolutely

:01:40.:01:41.

wonderful, can we have some of that year?

:01:42.:01:46.

Spain has been subject to even more brutal austerity economic son this

:01:47.:01:48.

country. That is not a defence of austerity.

:01:49.:01:52.

What are your goals for this election?

:01:53.:01:54.

Hammy seats would you like to win? I think this is the most realistic

:01:55.:02:01.

chance we have had of getting an MSP in each one of Scotland's regions.

:02:02.:02:06.

There are eight regions, I think we can get more than one in some

:02:07.:02:11.

regions. If in that ballpark, we are potentially approaching double

:02:12.:02:15.

figures. For the first time with have an MSP representing every voter

:02:16.:02:18.

in Scotland. The regional vote in every part of the Scotland can elect

:02:19.:02:22.

eight Green MSP. I want to get a sense from all party

:02:23.:02:28.

leaders - you think it would be a failure if you get less eight MSPs?

:02:29.:02:32.

Fewer than eight, I should say. If we went from two MSPs to seven, I

:02:33.:02:38.

wouldn't say that was a failure. I would be disappointed about the one

:02:39.:02:44.

region we don't have an MSDN, and redouble a reference to get that one

:02:45.:02:47.

next time. What is the maxim in you could get?

:02:48.:02:54.

I'm log in to set a maximum limit on aspirations. I would like us Green

:02:55.:03:01.

MSP in every region. I would like voters to think,... Labour needs to

:03:02.:03:09.

be -- SNP need to be put under pressure on issues like fracking,

:03:10.:03:13.

land reform, rent control. We put them under pressure and constructive

:03:14.:03:19.

pressure. Not just saying everything they do is terrible, but getting

:03:20.:03:22.

results by the way we engage with the Scottish Parliament and the

:03:23.:03:23.

Scottish Government. Thank you. If you meet David Coburn

:03:24.:03:29.

on the way out, you could take on shopping freighters do.

:03:30.:03:31.

I think that's unlikely. The Prime Minister has published

:03:32.:03:33.

details about his income and tax payments to try to defuse a row

:03:34.:03:35.

about his financial affairs. The figures cover

:03:36.:03:38.

the past six years. headlines after documents -

:03:39.:03:42.

leaked from a law firm in Panama - showed that his late father set

:03:43.:03:44.

up an offshore trust. He later disclosed that he'd

:03:45.:03:47.

profited from selling Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged

:03:48.:03:49.

that he'd taken too long to give Although he pays all the taxes that

:03:50.:04:03.

were due, David Cameron is facing accusations from labour that he

:04:04.:04:07.

misled the public about his personal involvement in his late father's

:04:08.:04:12.

offshore fund. He came under pressure to tackle money-laundering

:04:13.:04:16.

and tax evasion. It's not about the individual or one

:04:17.:04:20.

person, it is about a whole ethos where the very rich are able to put

:04:21.:04:25.

their money into tax havens, offshore accounts, whether it often

:04:26.:04:28.

easy rate of income tax. Sometimes also a zero rate of corporate or

:04:29.:04:33.

capital gains tax. That untaxed money does not contribute anything

:04:34.:04:39.

to the public services of the people of the country they come from.

:04:40.:04:45.

Yesterday, protesters gathered outside the Conservative spring

:04:46.:04:49.

Forum, at a venue in central London. They demanded the Prime Minister

:04:50.:04:53.

handed in his resignation. There is no suggestion that Mr

:04:54.:04:55.

Cameron has done anything illegal, There is no suggestion that Mr

:04:56.:04:59.

but he admits he mishandled the questions about his family's tax

:05:00.:05:02.

affairs. I know that I should have handled

:05:03.:05:05.

this bettered. I could have handled this better. I know there are

:05:06.:05:10.

lessons to learn, and I will learn them. I don't blame -- and don't

:05:11.:05:16.

blame ten Downing St on Amis advisers, blame me.

:05:17.:05:23.

David Cameron has also revealed that a new task force will investigate

:05:24.:05:28.

accusations of money-laundering in the Panama Papers. But will that be

:05:29.:05:30.

enough to silence critics? While politicians have

:05:31.:05:36.

been making capital - if you'll forgive the pun -

:05:37.:05:38.

out of the Prime Minister's personal situation -

:05:39.:05:41.

there are wider questions around The huge leak of documents

:05:42.:05:43.

from the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca has revealed how tax

:05:44.:05:46.

havens are used to hide wealth. Critics question the ethics

:05:47.:05:49.

of the rich in avoidance of paying income tax,

:05:50.:05:51.

corporation tax and capital gains. On the other side, some finance

:05:52.:05:53.

experts point to legitimate reasons for the financial arrangements

:05:54.:05:56.

and emphasise that most of those who invest in them

:05:57.:05:58.

are not breaking the law. I'm joined now by the Telegraph

:05:59.:06:00.

columnist Juliet Samuel, who's in our London studio,

:06:01.:06:03.

and by the financial First, Juliet Samuel, a lot of

:06:04.:06:15.

people will look at these offshore tax havens and think, this all

:06:16.:06:20.

smells bad, but are there are legitimate reasons, do you believe,

:06:21.:06:25.

that companies could be registered there or that individuals could want

:06:26.:06:31.

to keep their money there? There are certainly legitimate

:06:32.:06:33.

reasons for being registered on the offshore companies to do business.

:06:34.:06:37.

Some reasons include that you want to invest in a developing country

:06:38.:06:44.

who are going on sure they could expose you to political risk or

:06:45.:06:48.

corruption. So you might want to register offshore in order to make

:06:49.:06:53.

your investment less of a rest. Or it might be easier... I mean, there

:06:54.:06:58.

are many funds such as the one that Mr Cameron was invested in which our

:06:59.:07:06.

registered offshore but which are not avoiding UK tax but which are

:07:07.:07:08.

registered offshore because these offshore centres are more efficient

:07:09.:07:11.

and quick and cheap at setting up forms and make it easier for

:07:12.:07:17.

international investors for area by Mike due restrictions to invest into

:07:18.:07:18.

them. You have to efficient, that is a

:07:19.:07:21.

word that will make people suspicious. Investment trusts, you

:07:22.:07:25.

are trading on the stock exchange, you can buy them, they are traded on

:07:26.:07:30.

the London Stock Exchange, why would someone want to set up an investment

:07:31.:07:37.

trust that is based on a tax haven? In some cases, it is so that

:07:38.:07:42.

international investors who are not UK investors, do not activate the

:07:43.:07:48.

entire UK tax by investing in a foreign company in the UK. A lot of

:07:49.:07:51.

farms will be attracting investors from the Middle East, the US, all

:07:52.:07:56.

around Europe, and if you had a fund set up in the UK, it is much more

:07:57.:08:02.

difficult to ensure that investors do not accidentally incur tax and

:08:03.:08:06.

that they actually do not have to pay. So that could be one reason.

:08:07.:08:14.

Another reason, for example, in Ireland, it is just much faster to

:08:15.:08:17.

set up a fund, there is more expertise there to set them up.

:08:18.:08:22.

There is a whole industry which has been built around doing so, it takes

:08:23.:08:26.

half the time in some offshore centres to set up a fund than it

:08:27.:08:31.

does in the UK. Did you agree, Ian Fraser, are there

:08:32.:08:34.

legitimate reasons for having these things?

:08:35.:08:37.

Yes, and Juliet Samuel has outlined some of those. The trouble however

:08:38.:08:40.

is that they all offshore world which includes lawyers, company

:08:41.:08:43.

formation agents, using which includes lawyers, company

:08:44.:08:48.

jurisdictions like the Cayman Islands, Panama etc, it has been

:08:49.:08:52.

totally corrupted, so even though there are legitimate businesses

:08:53.:08:56.

including asset management companies using it, a lot of other companies

:08:57.:09:02.

are money launderers, gangsters, drug runners, sorry drug barons and

:09:03.:09:09.

so on. Deposed dictators who want to hide their cash a week without the

:09:10.:09:11.

authorities in their native countries knowing where the money

:09:12.:09:15.

is. Is it in principle possible to

:09:16.:09:20.

separate? Let us pretend I was a multinational company and that I had

:09:21.:09:24.

a legitimate reason, I wanted to aggravate payments from around the

:09:25.:09:27.

world and I wanted to take them back to America and pay the taxes that I

:09:28.:09:33.

will. Is there anyway that I can do that without being tainted with what

:09:34.:09:35.

you have just described? I think there are remains reasons

:09:36.:09:40.

for that but it is more likely that you would be kind deed and put in

:09:41.:09:43.

the same kind of bracket as the abusers of the offshore system. I

:09:44.:09:47.

agree with the likes of Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. I agree

:09:48.:09:53.

with Thomas Docherty, the French economist, that this is something

:09:54.:09:57.

that is actually harming the financial system. It is making our

:09:58.:10:03.

financial system more precarious, it is encouraging international crime.

:10:04.:10:06.

It is encouraging the looting of third World countries. These tax

:10:07.:10:09.

havens ought to be shut down. That is my view.

:10:10.:10:14.

What do you make of that, Juliet Samuel? After the financial crisis,

:10:15.:10:18.

there was an argument, was there not, similar to that, that there

:10:19.:10:23.

were entire areas of finance that were very obscure and people could

:10:24.:10:26.

not understand. People said they should be shut down, there is no

:10:27.:10:29.

reason to have them and the world would not be a worse place for not

:10:30.:10:34.

having them. Ironically, a lot of those things

:10:35.:10:39.

that were shot down, politicians are now trying to restart. And that is

:10:40.:10:42.

because some of them did have economic benefits such as a form of

:10:43.:10:47.

security. I agreed with Ian Fraser up until he said we should shut them

:10:48.:10:52.

all down. There are certainly many criminals who are using offshore

:10:53.:10:56.

havens in order to avoid breaking reasonable and fair laws and onshore

:10:57.:11:03.

places. But the idea that we can or should just shut them down, I do not

:11:04.:11:08.

even know what that would mean. Many of these offshore jurisdictions are

:11:09.:11:13.

foreign countries. We can put some of them on blacklists as we have

:11:14.:11:16.

done, that that does not involve shutting them down. What we should

:11:17.:11:18.

be doing and in fact, what the shutting them down. What we should

:11:19.:11:22.

government has been doing, or they are trying to do, is to put pressure

:11:23.:11:26.

on them to improve the regulations because they be that you would make

:11:27.:11:30.

on them to improve the regulations it harder for criminals to use these

:11:31.:11:32.

jurisdictions is to force them to register their information and

:11:33.:11:37.

forced jurisdictions to collect that information and make it available to

:11:38.:11:41.

authorities in other countries as they have a good reason. That is

:11:42.:11:45.

something that is happening slowly under pressure, but shutting them

:11:46.:11:49.

down is not an option. The trouble is they are resisting

:11:50.:11:53.

it, but at the British Virgin Islands, for example, there was a

:11:54.:12:01.

massive leak in 2013 secret information involving a lot of

:12:02.:12:02.

massive leak in 2013 secret criminal abuse of tax havens there.

:12:03.:12:05.

But they did not respond by tiding up their act, they did not try to be

:12:06.:12:08.

more transparent. The Labour Party has suggested we

:12:09.:12:12.

could take direct control of some of these jurisdictions that have

:12:13.:12:15.

British territories. The problem not that there are lots of add-ons and

:12:16.:12:18.

small independent countries around the world which could take up the

:12:19.:12:24.

slack? So unless there was pretty much unanimous international

:12:25.:12:26.

agreement to blacklist these countries, that wherever you shut

:12:27.:12:29.

one down, another will pop up elsewhere?

:12:30.:12:35.

That is a danger, there is a new one of the coast of New Zealand in the

:12:36.:12:38.

Pacific. It was established by Mossack Fonseca as a tax haven. A

:12:39.:12:45.

secret jurisdiction. There is always that risk. Basically, the British

:12:46.:12:48.

government has been pussyfooting around this issue for the last six

:12:49.:12:53.

years and it was doing virtually nothing in the previous period

:12:54.:12:55.

years and it was doing virtually either. They need to shape up their

:12:56.:13:00.

act, they have to address this. Surely this has to be an

:13:01.:13:04.

international issue? No matter what the British government does, if

:13:05.:13:07.

another government of a big country does not do it, I can just shut my

:13:08.:13:12.

money there and throw that into the tax haven.

:13:13.:13:17.

International law is actually necessary, definitely. Without that

:13:18.:13:22.

it would be very difficult. Briefly, Juliet Samuel, is that

:13:23.:13:24.

it would be very difficult. realistic, that we can do something?

:13:25.:13:28.

Yes, and actually, the government have tried to do that and read it at

:13:29.:13:32.

the G8. If you had corporation it would be harder for offshore centres

:13:33.:13:36.

to simply carry on without enforcing regulations, some of which are

:13:37.:13:40.

already on the books. OK, we will have to leave it there.

:13:41.:13:44.

Ian Fraser and Juliet Samuel, from London, thank you both very much

:13:45.:13:46.

indeed for joining us. I'll be back at the

:13:47.:13:47.

same time next week.

:13:48.:13:52.

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