10/04/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


10/04/2016

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew is joined by Penny Mordaunt MP, Neil Hamilton and Kamal Ahmed.


Similar Content

Browse content similar to 10/04/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!

Transcript


LineFromTo

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics.

:00:36.:00:38.

After a week of damaging questions over his financial affairs,

:00:39.:00:40.

David Cameron tries to get on the front foot

:00:41.:00:43.

by publishing details of his tax bills.

:00:44.:00:46.

but no evidence he's avoided or evaded any tax.

:00:47.:00:53.

Will it silence his critics or just spur them on?

:00:54.:00:55.

We've got the details and the analysis.

:00:56.:00:57.

The Prime Minister's bigger challenge

:00:58.:00:59.

is still winning the EU referendum, and one of his key arguments

:01:00.:01:02.

is that membership helps keep us safe.

:01:03.:01:07.

And this should be Ukip's big moment, so why is the party

:01:08.:01:13.

fighting among itself and facing an uncertain future?

:01:14.:01:17.

We'll bring you the full account of what's going wrong inside Ukip.

:01:18.:01:21.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

:01:22.:01:23.

We begin our series of interviews with the Scottish party leaders.

:01:24.:01:25.

Today it's the turn of David Coburn of Ukip and the co-convener

:01:26.:01:28.

of the Scottish Greens, Patrick Harvie.

:01:29.:01:39.

All that and more coming up in the next hour and a quarter.

:01:40.:01:42.

And when it comes to embarrassing admissions, PR blunders and having

:01:43.:01:45.

we've decided to bring in the real experts.

:01:46.:01:50.

Yes, it's Sam Coates, Beth Rigby and Isabel Oakeshott.

:01:51.:01:53.

Luckily, their tax affairs are pretty simple,

:01:54.:01:56.

but that's mainly because we pay them so badly.

:01:57.:02:03.

Without a doubt, it's been a pretty miserable time

:02:04.:02:06.

He's been on the defensive since Monday, when his father

:02:07.:02:10.

was linked to the so-called Panama Papers, leaked documents

:02:11.:02:12.

which showed how the rich and powerful use

:02:13.:02:14.

It's led to thousands protesting outside Downing Street

:02:15.:02:17.

For the first time, his approval ratings

:02:18.:02:20.

Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged he'd handled the affair badly,

:02:21.:02:25.

and overnight Number 10 published the headlines of his personal income

:02:26.:02:28.

tax returns for the past six years, including the tax he's paid.

:02:29.:02:35.

So what, if anything, has he done wrong?

:02:36.:02:37.

Well, we'll attempt to answer that question this morning,

:02:38.:02:39.

but first here's a reminder of how the story unfolded.

:02:40.:02:48.

The Panama Papers contain links to 12 current or former heads of state

:02:49.:02:55.

and government. In the UK, attention has focused on David Cameron and an

:02:56.:02:59.

offshore investment fund which is late father, Ian Cameron, set up in

:03:00.:03:04.

the early 1980s. Blairmore was incorporated in one tax saving,

:03:05.:03:07.

Panama, but based in another, the Bahamas. He used a financial

:03:08.:03:14.

instrument to protect investors per' privacy, then legal, but since

:03:15.:03:19.

outlawed in the UK. At on Monday whether the Prime Minister had

:03:20.:03:22.

personally benefited from the company, Downing Street said it was

:03:23.:03:26.

a private matter. On Tuesday, Mr Cameron tried to draw a line under

:03:27.:03:30.

it all, saying I have no shares, no offshore trusts, no offshore funds,

:03:31.:03:32.

nothing like that. Later that day, Downing Street

:03:33.:03:36.

sent a clarification - to be clear, the Prime Minister,

:03:37.:03:38.

his wife and their children do not benefit from

:03:39.:03:40.

any offshore funds. On Wednesday, a fourth statement

:03:41.:03:42.

was issued by Downing Street - there are no offshore funds,

:03:43.:03:45.

trusts which the Prime Minister, Mrs Cameron or their children

:03:46.:03:47.

will benefit from in future. Under increasing pressure,

:03:48.:03:51.

David Cameron gave an interview to ITV on Thursday in which he

:03:52.:03:54.

revealed that he had sold his shares in Blairmore in 2010

:03:55.:03:58.

for just over ?30,000. The Prime Minister said the profits

:03:59.:04:03.

and dividends he and his wife Samantha made from the investment

:04:04.:04:06.

were subject to all UK taxes in normal ways,

:04:07.:04:08.

and legal opinion suggests Mr Cameron has done

:04:09.:04:11.

nothing illegal. But he has faced intense criticism

:04:12.:04:15.

over his handling of the story. says this has undermined the trust

:04:16.:04:19.

that we have in him. Mr Cameron has now published

:04:20.:04:24.

the headlines of his tax returns, They show that in addition

:04:25.:04:27.

to ?300,000 that he received after his father's death

:04:28.:04:31.

in September 2010, his mother gave him two gifts

:04:32.:04:34.

of ?100,000 each in 2011. Downing Street has

:04:35.:04:42.

vigorously denied suggestions that this was done

:04:43.:04:51.

to minimise tax paid on the estate. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn

:04:52.:04:54.

and Energy Secretary Amber Rudd have both been talking about this

:04:55.:04:56.

on the Marr show this morning, we need to know what he has

:04:57.:04:59.

actually returned as a tax return. We need to know why he put this

:05:00.:05:05.

money overseas in the first place and whether he made anything out

:05:06.:05:09.

of it or not before 2010, These are questions

:05:10.:05:12.

that he must answer. is that the Prime Minister and

:05:13.:05:16.

his family have done nothing wrong. I mean, the independent tax expert

:05:17.:05:21.

at the start of this programme confirmed that,

:05:22.:05:24.

lots of independent tax experts We're joined now by our economics

:05:25.:05:26.

editor Kamal Ahmed, he's been You have been a busy man! For the

:05:27.:05:42.

first time ever we have seen a Prime Minister's tax returns, at least the

:05:43.:05:47.

headlines, what have we led? Well, it is interesting, isn't it? David

:05:48.:05:50.

Cameron has gone from suggesting a mere six days ago that this was a

:05:51.:05:55.

private matter to a sort of tax shock and awe, I will put it all out

:05:56.:06:01.

there, people can make decisions on the details. I have been scribbling

:06:02.:06:05.

down the details, and there is a lot there. It shows that he has earned

:06:06.:06:09.

over ?1 million since he has been Prime Minister, not just from his

:06:10.:06:14.

prime ministerial salary, but from other income, rental income. He has

:06:15.:06:19.

paid tax of about ?400,000, an effective rate of about 37%, which

:06:20.:06:29.

would be pretty normal. As we said at the top of the programme, he has

:06:30.:06:32.

revealed these two payments from his mother of ?100,000 each, which were

:06:33.:06:35.

gifted to him after his father died. And in the previous year he had

:06:36.:06:39.

300,000 from his father, as an inheritance. Downing Street said

:06:40.:06:43.

that his mother made the payments to the Prime Minister because his older

:06:44.:06:47.

brother had inherited the house, and she was trying to even up the sort

:06:48.:06:52.

of inheritance as it was shared out. As you look at that, the experts

:06:53.:06:56.

saying there was any kind of tax dodge involved in this, either from

:06:57.:07:00.

the estate or with the Prime Minister? I think the whole issue is

:07:01.:07:05.

what is avoidance and what is sensible tax planning. If you think

:07:06.:07:08.

that putting your savings into an Isa is tax avoidance, because it is

:07:09.:07:13.

tax free in terms of your investments, then you will probably

:07:14.:07:17.

think that this type of gifting is some form of tax avoidance. The only

:07:18.:07:21.

time it would become tax avoidance is it David Cameron's mother dies,

:07:22.:07:26.

this is a horrible way to have a conversation, but this is how the

:07:27.:07:31.

tax law works. If she dies before 2018, there is a seven year limit on

:07:32.:07:37.

gifts to your children. Her estate would pay the tax, and her children

:07:38.:07:40.

would have a share of a smaller pot of money. But the tax was put in

:07:41.:07:45.

place there two when sure that any gifts that are given, if they are

:07:46.:07:50.

given within seven years of the parents dying, still become liable

:07:51.:07:55.

for inheritance tax. So I think that the one big point is that David

:07:56.:08:02.

Cameron, as do nearly everybody, particularly if they are wealthy,

:08:03.:08:05.

has planned his tax affairs so that he pays no more tax than is

:08:06.:08:09.

necessary. Now, people might think that is morally wrong, but... He

:08:10.:08:16.

once said it was morally wrong, did he not? He was talking about

:08:17.:08:20.

aggressive tax avoidance. This is currently! This is very simple, very

:08:21.:08:25.

vanilla, things that would be available to anybody. I think what

:08:26.:08:29.

he was trying to say, all the difference that Downing Street would

:08:30.:08:32.

argue, was that it is different from the pop stars and the people in

:08:33.:08:39.

entertainment who used complicated funding mechanisms to avoid tax. And

:08:40.:08:44.

this, which is normal tax planning, in terms of what your tax adviser,

:08:45.:08:48.

if you are wealthy, would say to you. It is a watershed in British

:08:49.:08:53.

politics, two CDs tax returns, but are we not in danger of making too

:08:54.:08:58.

much out of them? -- to see these tax returns. I do not suggest the

:08:59.:09:08.

prime and has -- the minister has done anything wrong, but if you

:09:09.:09:11.

have, it would not be in your tax return. There is no suggestion that

:09:12.:09:15.

he has done anything wrong, but the watershed issue is around the

:09:16.:09:19.

long-held belief in law that your tax affairs are private. And what

:09:20.:09:24.

this has done is opened up, I would suggest, every Cabinet minister,

:09:25.:09:27.

every member of the government to the notion that they will have to

:09:28.:09:31.

publish not just this year's tax returns but six years of tax

:09:32.:09:35.

returns. And if they do not, the question will be, why are you not

:09:36.:09:39.

doing that? The Cabinet will be over the moon about that(!) Let's cut to

:09:40.:09:44.

the chase, it is almost did the Chancellor will have to publish his

:09:45.:09:48.

tax returns. I think so. There was an attempt to shut down the story

:09:49.:09:53.

once and for all by saying, here are his tax returns, the Prime Minister

:09:54.:10:03.

has done nothing wrong, but they have let the genie out of the

:10:04.:10:06.

bottle. The Chancellor will now be under pressure, other Cabinet

:10:07.:10:08.

ministers will be under pressure. Jeremy Corbyn was suggesting that

:10:09.:10:10.

people in public life more broadly should have to publish their tax

:10:11.:10:15.

returns. So it is a big moment in terms of transparency and demand is

:10:16.:10:18.

from the public for transparency, but if you think about it, this

:10:19.:10:23.

began with the MPs expenses, I would argue, and ever since then the

:10:24.:10:28.

public trust in politicians and in the way they behave has been on the

:10:29.:10:32.

slide, and this is a continuation of that, a continuation of the demand

:10:33.:10:37.

for transparency. John McDonnell has told the BBC, we will ensure that

:10:38.:10:43.

any donor linked to the Labour Party will not be using devices to evade

:10:44.:10:49.

tax. Good luck on that(!) HMRC have trouble figuring that out. This has

:10:50.:10:54.

a wider political significance, we are running up to the European

:10:55.:10:58.

referendum, the Prime Minister is mainly seen as the main asset in the

:10:59.:11:03.

Remain campaign, it is not great news when he is being dragged

:11:04.:11:07.

through the news like this. Luff, this is as bad a week of headlines I

:11:08.:11:12.

can remember since the Prime Minister entered office. -- no. It

:11:13.:11:20.

has not resulted in anyone being able to level an accusation that the

:11:21.:11:23.

Prime Minister that would stand up in a court of law. There is no

:11:24.:11:27.

suggestion that anyone is credibly making that he aggressively avoided

:11:28.:11:31.

tax. The question is, if that is the case, how has it ended up getting

:11:32.:11:35.

quite so bad for David Cameron? And I think at the heart of it has been

:11:36.:11:39.

an inability of Downing Street really to explain properly to people

:11:40.:11:43.

what is going on here, and I think that they are still, even morning,

:11:44.:11:51.

struggled to explain why, if he was doing nothing wrong, his father

:11:52.:11:54.

needed to set up a company in the Bahamas that used this anonymous

:11:55.:11:57.

form of company liability. That was the weakest part of the Prime

:11:58.:12:02.

Minister's statement in the week, that this investment vehicle,

:12:03.:12:05.

Blairmore, had not been set up to mitigate or avoid tax. I mean, if

:12:06.:12:11.

you register in Panama and operate out of the Bahamas, I mean, what

:12:12.:12:18.

else are you doing?! That is paid of the absurd, and we know that Ian

:12:19.:12:22.

Cameron made a living out of offering this sort of advice to very

:12:23.:12:25.

wealthy clients, and there was nothing wrong with that. When he set

:12:26.:12:30.

up his business, the political climate was absolutely different to

:12:31.:12:33.

what it is today. There was nothing wrong with what he was doing then.

:12:34.:12:37.

It was simply absurd of David Cameron to suggest that it was not

:12:38.:12:43.

set up for those reasons. I disagree about the weakest point, I think

:12:44.:12:47.

that was the private matter, you know, when David Cameron's

:12:48.:12:51.

spokeswoman suggested that this was a private matter, it all went

:12:52.:12:56.

downhill from there. I think today the headlines about inheritance tax

:12:57.:13:00.

and whether this is some kind of dodgy avoidance or evasion is

:13:01.:13:05.

something of a red herring. He has not, as Kamal said, done anything

:13:06.:13:09.

wrong, it is very standard practice, and there is a world of difference

:13:10.:13:13.

between evasion and avoidance. There is nothing fishy about this in

:13:14.:13:19.

particular. Kamal, you have been following this, the political

:13:20.:13:21.

ramifications still huge in that even if he loses the referendum, he

:13:22.:13:26.

is going, this will encourage, but even if he wins, the Tory party may

:13:27.:13:31.

see him, although we has done nothing wrong, as part of the

:13:32.:13:35.

walking wounded. On this issue, which has been interesting, the

:13:36.:13:38.

Conservative Party has lined up behind him. He has not been

:13:39.:13:43.

attacked, as he has over other issues, like George Osborne's Budget

:13:44.:13:46.

or Tata Steel, so this has been quite a unifying moment for the

:13:47.:13:50.

Conservative Party, interestingly. What it does that is dangerous is it

:13:51.:13:54.

makes the referendum much more of a vote about David Cameron, which is

:13:55.:13:58.

the last thing that people in Number Ten want it to be. Another busy

:13:59.:14:01.

weekend of you! Now is the UK safer in or out

:14:02.:14:04.

of the European Union? It's one of the central questions

:14:05.:14:07.

in the referendum debate Does membership help protect

:14:08.:14:09.

us against terrorist attacks, And are the big foreign policy

:14:10.:14:13.

challenges, like those posed by Russia or Iran,

:14:14.:14:16.

better tackled through the EU or with our other

:14:17.:14:19.

international partners alone? giving his view

:14:20.:14:22.

earlier in the week. We draw our strength

:14:23.:14:26.

as a country from the fact we are the fifth-biggest economy

:14:27.:14:28.

in the world, we have a special relationship with the United States,

:14:29.:14:31.

we are members of Nato, the G7, but we also get

:14:32.:14:33.

some strength from being in the European Union,

:14:34.:14:41.

the organisation for our continent that actually helps us,

:14:42.:14:45.

whether it is confronting Iran and making sure we don't have

:14:46.:14:47.

Iranian nuclear weapons, whether it is standing up

:14:48.:14:50.

to Vladimir Putin and his aggression in Ukraine, we are stronger

:14:51.:14:52.

by being part of this organisation. I'm joined now by a member

:14:53.:14:59.

of the Cameron government, the Armed Forces Minister

:15:00.:15:01.

Penny Mordaunt. She's campaigning for Britain

:15:02.:15:03.

to vote to leave the EU. The Prime Minister, the Defence

:15:04.:15:16.

Secretary, 12 former British defence chiefs all say our security is

:15:17.:15:18.

enhanced by remaining in. Those job titles, baked not

:15:19.:15:31.

arguments. I am very clear, having worn a uniform, three years on the

:15:32.:15:34.

House of Commons defence committee, being an aid worker in the former

:15:35.:15:39.

Eastern Bloc, we would be safer outside the EU. They are responsible

:15:40.:15:44.

for our security. One of them is your boss, that is his title. They

:15:45.:15:53.

think we are safer in. There is a lot of things we agree on. We agree

:15:54.:15:59.

that Nato is the cornerstone of our defence, but that the EU defence

:16:00.:16:02.

structures condiment that. If we were outside the EU, we would not

:16:03.:16:09.

lose anything from those structures. The common European defence policy

:16:10.:16:15.

and the procurement opportunities, the opportunities to partake in

:16:16.:16:20.

missions, they are open to non-EU member states and Nato, so we don't

:16:21.:16:23.

lose anything by leaving. We would gain massively the ability to take

:16:24.:16:30.

that control of our borders, just one example, if we were outside.

:16:31.:16:35.

Let's take the issue of what we would lose. Michael Fallon, you are

:16:36.:16:41.

in his department, he is a Eurosceptic, he says, if we left, it

:16:42.:16:47.

would be smaller and weaker, which is precisely what Vladimir Putin

:16:48.:16:51.

wants. He wants the EU to be smaller and weaker. You cannot deny that.

:16:52.:16:56.

The key issue is, what is the operational benefit that being in

:16:57.:17:02.

the EU or taking part in any of the defence structures and security

:17:03.:17:07.

structures that it plans on setting up, like a pan European intelligence

:17:08.:17:12.

agency, what is the benefit of that? I would argue there is none, and it

:17:13.:17:16.

frustrates our ability to share intelligence. We don't share

:17:17.:17:20.

intelligence with pan-European agencies, we share it with other

:17:21.:17:25.

nations are. I did not ask about that. I asked a geopolitical

:17:26.:17:33.

question, your boss says the EU would be smaller and weaker if we

:17:34.:17:36.

left, and that is precisely what the Kremlin wants. Do you deny that? In

:17:37.:17:42.

a time of austerity, when we are facing massive terror threats, if we

:17:43.:17:47.

are spending time, money and energy on anything that does not give as an

:17:48.:17:51.

operational advantage and a benefit in tackling those threats, that is

:17:52.:17:57.

crazy. Do you deny that it would leave us smaller and weaker and that

:17:58.:18:03.

is what Vladimir Putin wants? No. The thing that. Any malicious

:18:04.:18:07.

ambitions that anybody has against us, the Ukraine, other member states

:18:08.:18:13.

of the European Union is the success, the economic prosperity,

:18:14.:18:18.

the National security of those nation states. That is what will

:18:19.:18:22.

hold the threat that we are facing from Vladimir Putin and elsewhere.

:18:23.:18:28.

Philip Hammond says, it is only our enemies who want us to leave. Can

:18:29.:18:36.

you name a single ally that want us to leave? I can. People have

:18:37.:18:42.

different views in different nations. That is take our strongest

:18:43.:18:47.

ally, the United States. They want us to stay. That is what Barack

:18:48.:18:53.

Obama has said, but I would argue strongly, and there are many people

:18:54.:18:58.

there that would agree with me, the former head of the CIA is one,

:18:59.:19:10.

thinks that the EU is requiring of us of restricting our alliance with

:19:11.:19:13.

the United States. The official policy of America under Republican

:19:14.:19:18.

and Democratic presidents has been that we should stay in. That is a

:19:19.:19:24.

fact. That is their view, but it is not an argument. I asked if you

:19:25.:19:30.

could name a major or minor ally that we have that want us to leave.

:19:31.:19:36.

I have mentioned the United States. They want us to stay. Give me an

:19:37.:19:41.

ally that want us to leave. Australia, New Zealand, Canada,

:19:42.:19:48.

France, Germany? Our key relationships, they fully

:19:49.:19:54.

understand... Our relationship with them is threatened by legislation

:19:55.:20:03.

and requirements of the EU. The most sophisticated intelligence alliance

:20:04.:20:07.

in the world involves Britain, America, Australia, New Zealand,

:20:08.:20:14.

Canada, they want us to stay. I think they are wrong. The

:20:15.:20:18.

relationship that we have with them would be jeopardised and would be

:20:19.:20:23.

further jeopardised when we set up... That is their view. You have

:20:24.:20:30.

mentioned Nato, the general secretary says a strong EU with a

:20:31.:20:36.

strong Britain is good for Nato. The head of the US Army in Europe says

:20:37.:20:42.

leaving could weaken Nato. There are people that will argue that Nato is

:20:43.:20:47.

undermined by the EU structures. Not the head of Nato. The EU defence

:20:48.:20:51.

structures that we have complemented. But they are not

:20:52.:20:58.

closed off to us by leaving. The key issue about the threats we are

:20:59.:21:03.

facing, the threats that come with free movement of people and also

:21:04.:21:11.

with civil unrest on the continent, will be resolved by us leaving, by

:21:12.:21:15.

taking back control of our borders, our laws and money. And

:21:16.:21:21.

kick-starting reform in the EU. All of the parties that want us to

:21:22.:21:26.

leave, they are protectionist, xenophobic, authoritarian, against

:21:27.:21:30.

the single market, and they hope by us leaving, there will be chaos in

:21:31.:21:36.

Europe. Is that the chaos that would be good for our security? Vladimir

:21:37.:21:44.

Putin, you have mentioned, the rise of far right organisations in

:21:45.:21:49.

Europe, as a consequence of the forced harmonisation of the euro and

:21:50.:21:55.

the austerity and the problems that is bringing to member states, they

:21:56.:22:01.

have their arguments. They are not on my side, they are mistaken. What

:22:02.:22:09.

will ensure that those malicious ambitions against us are thwarted is

:22:10.:22:15.

if we have strong nation states. That is not what Europe is currently

:22:16.:22:19.

delivering. It is delivering weak states, states that don't have the

:22:20.:22:25.

money to put into their defence. The Prime Minister, the Defence

:22:26.:22:28.

Secretary, the Foreign Secretary, the head of Nato, the head of the US

:22:29.:22:33.

Army in Europe, all of our major allies, starting with America, think

:22:34.:22:38.

we are more secure and they would be more secure if we stay in, and you,

:22:39.:22:43.

a junior minister in the defence Department, say they are wrong. If

:22:44.:22:48.

they were all lined up in front of me, I would say freedom is never a

:22:49.:22:52.

gamble. We have gambled a huge amount in the past to preserve our

:22:53.:22:56.

freedom, we risk nothing by trying to take it back. If we take back

:22:57.:23:01.

control of our borders, we have got free movement of people, with the

:23:02.:23:07.

risk that brings... We are running out of time. In what way with being

:23:08.:23:13.

outside the EU make it easier for us to stop terrorists coming in?

:23:14.:23:23.

Europol estimate we have 5000 Daesh fighters that have returned to

:23:24.:23:30.

Europe. Unless we have concrete intelligence, we cannot turn them

:23:31.:23:37.

back. Are you saying that other Europeans would now need a visa to

:23:38.:23:41.

come to this country? How would you stop somebody with a European

:23:42.:23:45.

passport to come in? We could have control. We don't have those options

:23:46.:23:50.

now. If we had suspicions, we would stop them coming in. That is not

:23:51.:23:55.

correct. We stopped about 6000 people from the EU. On matters of

:23:56.:24:01.

security issues of public danger, we stopped around 500 a year, we can do

:24:02.:24:06.

that now, whether they have an EU passport or not. If we have sketchy

:24:07.:24:11.

intelligence, we cannot prevent them from coming in. Unless you have a

:24:12.:24:17.

Visa system from France and Germany, you could not direct. We risk

:24:18.:24:23.

nothing by taking back control of our borders and our laws that

:24:24.:24:29.

underpin this framework. It is not a gamble, staying in is a gamble,

:24:30.:24:34.

because it will only get worse. We have to take back control, that is

:24:35.:24:37.

what is required to keep our nation safe. Has the controversy around the

:24:38.:24:42.

Prime Minister damaged his credibility as leader of the Remain

:24:43.:24:50.

campaign? I don't think so. I don't have any other inside scoop, but I

:24:51.:24:54.

don't think he has done anything wrong. What this is about is trust

:24:55.:25:00.

and he has two now demonstrate and builder up that trust and report

:25:01.:25:05.

with the general public. This will raise questions, as your panel said,

:25:06.:25:11.

about politicians publishing further information about themselves, and

:25:12.:25:16.

although I understand argument around privacy and security, if that

:25:17.:25:20.

is what the electorate require of their officials, that is what will

:25:21.:25:21.

have to happen. We're now well into the campaign

:25:22.:25:24.

period for local and national elections

:25:25.:25:26.

across the UK on May 5th. With the Conservatives and Labour

:25:27.:25:28.

not exactly united at the moment you might think it's a perfect

:25:29.:25:31.

opportunity for Ukip, the party that won four million

:25:32.:25:33.

votes at last year's Even more so when the elections

:25:34.:25:35.

are being fought during an EU referendum campaign

:25:36.:25:39.

Nigel Farage helped bring about. So why instead are the men and women

:25:40.:25:43.

of his party so bitterly divided? All political parties have ups

:25:44.:25:50.

and downs, but mostly Ukip has been climbing the ladder

:25:51.:25:55.

of British politics. It's poised on the verge

:25:56.:25:57.

of a referendum it helped secure, offering the very thing the party

:25:58.:26:01.

was set up for. So why is it so short of funds

:26:02.:26:05.

and riven with in-fighting? Once-dominant Nigel Farage has lost

:26:06.:26:10.

control of parts of his party. The clearest example is being foiled

:26:11.:26:15.

by the party's ruling body over his prefered candidates

:26:16.:26:18.

for May elections in Wales. In particular, his desire to stop

:26:19.:26:22.

the selection of Neil Hamilton, Electoral concerns about Mr Hamilton

:26:23.:26:26.

are not new in Ukip. The Sunday Politics has

:26:27.:26:32.

been given a series In January 2015, Mr Hamilton

:26:33.:26:34.

complained to Nigel Farage he'd been branded as toxic by some

:26:35.:26:41.

inside the party. Michael McGough, a general-election

:26:42.:26:44.

candidate, emailed Mr Hamilton In every article that you feature,

:26:45.:26:47.

your name has the appendage "disgraced former Tory MP",

:26:48.:26:54.

and sadly this will continue. And on the same day an email

:26:55.:27:06.

from the then-party treasurer Andrew Reid accused Mr Hamilton,

:27:07.:27:10.

by then a longstanding Ukip-er, of behaving exactly

:27:11.:27:14.

as he'd been portrayed.. If you looked at the Welsh assembly

:27:15.:27:47.

elections, those are a great example of their tendency to shoot itself in

:27:48.:27:54.

the foot. You have some very Eurosceptic areas, but yet Ukip has

:27:55.:27:59.

become embroiled in a dispute over which of its candidates should stand

:28:00.:28:03.

where and whether it should be standing former Conservatives in

:28:04.:28:06.

mainly industrial parts of the country.

:28:07.:28:08.

The infighting didn't stop with Neil Hamilton,

:28:09.:28:10.

with 16 candidates signing a letter demanding that another candidate,

:28:11.:28:12.

Gareth Bennett, be deselected because he had expressed a negative

:28:13.:28:17.

view of other candidates, undermined the party

:28:18.:28:20.

and our own ability to campaign through his offensive

:28:21.:28:23.

and borderline-racist comments about immigrants to Wales.

:28:24.:28:31.

The party's National Executive Council did not deselect him and two

:28:32.:28:34.

other candidates have since stood down.

:28:35.:28:37.

Nigel Farage has been repeatedly outvoted by the NEC,

:28:38.:28:40.

leading Mr Farage to consider abolishing it.

:28:41.:28:44.

However, the Sunday Politics has learned just this week

:28:45.:28:47.

a representative of the NEC hostile to Nigel Farage angrily accosted

:28:48.:28:52.

a Welsh Ukip staffer in the Cardiff office,

:28:53.:28:54.

saying, "I've come to find which faction you are in,

:28:55.:28:58.

And Neil isn't the only colleague Nigel has fallen out with.

:28:59.:29:05.

Just two weeks ago, Suzanne Evans, seen by many as one of the party's

:29:06.:29:09.

best performers, ended up in the extraordinary position

:29:10.:29:12.

of taking the party to the High Court to overturn

:29:13.:29:15.

a suspension that also barred her from standing

:29:16.:29:18.

If people cannot come together and unite behind the main principles of

:29:19.:29:32.

the party, maybe they are in the wrong party and they should take

:29:33.:29:35.

their personal career ambitions to another party.

:29:36.:29:36.

On top of this, insiders have told the Sunday Politics Ukip's in severe

:29:37.:29:39.

Staff have been laid off, or unpaid for months,

:29:40.:29:43.

membership is down and candidates are expected to contribute

:29:44.:29:45.

in the thousands to their own campaigns.

:29:46.:29:48.

Stuart Wheeler, a donor who's given Ukip over 600K in the past six

:29:49.:29:52.

years, told us he hasn't donated to the party since last year and has

:29:53.:29:56.

Paul Sykes, who contributed to Ukip's 2014 European elections

:29:57.:30:06.

campaign, is no longer funding the party.

:30:07.:30:10.

Ukip doesn't control the funding Parliament gives to an opposition

:30:11.:30:13.

Currently 212K a year, that's controlled by the party's

:30:14.:30:19.

one MP, Douglas Carswell, who turned down the original sum

:30:20.:30:23.

of 670K and as a result fell out with Nigel Farage.

:30:24.:30:30.

We've learned that until recently the security bill for Mr Farage

:30:31.:30:35.

around a third of all monthly membership fees.

:30:36.:30:41.

The sum may now be lower, and is not now funded by the party.

:30:42.:30:46.

The party also paid Facebook ?90,000 in the year of the general election.

:30:47.:30:51.

Senior figures are split, supporting rival campaigns

:30:52.:30:57.

for leaving the European Union, both vying to be

:30:58.:30:59.

Nigel Farage is determined that it will be Grassroots Out rather

:31:00.:31:08.

than rivals Vote Leave that wins that designation, to be

:31:09.:31:12.

One donor who is still giving to Ukip, ?50,000 to the Welsh

:31:13.:31:17.

campaign last week, is Arron Banks, a key figure in Grassroots Out.

:31:18.:31:21.

We have been told by numerous sources that Nigel Farage wants

:31:22.:31:24.

to restructure and revamp Ukip after the referendum,

:31:25.:31:26.

and that they think Arron Banks would be chairman

:31:27.:31:28.

I did not say rebranded as much, but I have watched the five Star

:31:29.:31:43.

Movement in Italy, basically, an online party, where people can join

:31:44.:31:48.

for modest sums of money, but have a say in choosing the direction of the

:31:49.:31:52.

party, a sense that the old membership models are a bit

:31:53.:31:53.

outdated. His critics think he extends

:31:54.:31:54.

that view to the NEC. His supporters say such

:31:55.:31:58.

a digital model would also make this troublesome body for Mr Farage

:31:59.:32:00.

redunant and let him take back control of a party that right now

:32:01.:32:03.

is far from at ease with itself. And we're joined in the studio

:32:04.:32:09.

now by Neil Hamilton, he's a former deputy chairman

:32:10.:32:12.

of Ukip, and he's hoping to become one of the party's first members

:32:13.:32:14.

of the Welsh Assembly. Welcome to the programme. Ukip was

:32:15.:32:23.

created to bring about a referendum on the EU, you have got one, why is

:32:24.:32:28.

the party in such chaos? It is a fantastic achievement for Ukip to

:32:29.:32:32.

have brought this referendum to the people of Britain, but Ukip has

:32:33.:32:36.

grown up very rapidly in the last few years. It is only in the last

:32:37.:32:40.

four or five years that it has become a mainstream political party,

:32:41.:32:44.

and I suppose... These are the growing pains of such a party. It is

:32:45.:32:51.

basically about jockeying for position, and you get these personal

:32:52.:32:56.

feuds in all parties. I lived through the Major government and the

:32:57.:33:00.

Thatcher government, where we saw it in spades, this is nothing compared

:33:01.:33:04.

to the Conservative Party. A crucial issue that has exposed the visions

:33:05.:33:08.

within the party, which of the rival campaign should get the official

:33:09.:33:11.

designation from the Electoral Commission, which one do you want to

:33:12.:33:17.

get it? Well, I have taken a neutral position all along, because we have

:33:18.:33:20.

to work with whoever gets the designation, and I am a great

:33:21.:33:26.

admirer of Arron Banks, he has made a fantastic contribution. There can

:33:27.:33:31.

only be one. Years Nigel's preferred vehicle. I am asking your view. I am

:33:32.:33:37.

ambivalent, I will unite behind whoever gets the designation, the

:33:38.:33:40.

Electoral Commission will announce the decision in the coming weeks, so

:33:41.:33:44.

this will be an argument in the past. How much trouble is there

:33:45.:33:49.

between Mr Farage and the party's ruling national executive committee?

:33:50.:33:54.

Well, Nigel is a member of and a frequent at tender at the NEC.

:33:55.:33:58.

Because he is the party leader and a strong and dominant individual,

:33:59.:34:05.

without whom Ukip is -- would not be where it is today, it does not mean

:34:06.:34:10.

he get his way on everything, we are a Democratic Party. The NEC is a

:34:11.:34:14.

vigorous forum for debate, that is a healthy situation. Will he try to

:34:15.:34:18.

change that after the referendum, will there be a Farage coup? Just

:34:19.:34:22.

because you read it in the newspapers does not mean it is true,

:34:23.:34:28.

of course! I have no window into Nigel's mind on this. Should he? I

:34:29.:34:34.

am not seeing anybody who knows anything about this, apart from

:34:35.:34:38.

whoever wrote the piece in the having done post. Should he continue

:34:39.:34:44.

as leader? He was elected just two years ago, he can go on for three

:34:45.:34:50.

years before going for re-elections. I am asking for your view. I think

:34:51.:34:53.

years before going for re-elections. he will continue as leader beyond

:34:54.:34:57.

the referendum. The world after the referendum will be a very different

:34:58.:35:03.

kettle of fish... I am asking your view, should he continue as leader

:35:04.:35:09.

after the referendum? I think there will be a widespread re-evaluation

:35:10.:35:11.

of work Ukip is after the referendum. We are going to win

:35:12.:35:17.

seats in the Welsh Assembly, the Scottish Government and the Northern

:35:18.:35:20.

Ireland Assembly, and we will then have various representatives... Let

:35:21.:35:26.

me try one more time, after the referendum, should he step down?

:35:27.:35:29.

me try one more time, after the Should there be a new leader, in

:35:30.:35:32.

your view? I am not going to call for Nigel to stand down, I am

:35:33.:35:39.

perfectly certain that if there were an election for leader, party

:35:40.:35:41.

members would vote for Nigel overwhelmingly. This is a nonissue.

:35:42.:35:47.

When was the last time you spoke to him? Several weeks ago, when he came

:35:48.:35:51.

to the NEC meeting last month. You used to be great mates. We still

:35:52.:35:59.

are, it is like a married couple who have been together quite a long

:36:00.:36:03.

time, you have ups and downs, he throws China at me, I figured up and

:36:04.:36:08.

put it on the mantelpiece. He blocked you from standing in the

:36:09.:36:11.

general election, you were removed as deputy chairman in February, he

:36:12.:36:16.

wanted you off the list in Wales, all part of the division and chaos

:36:17.:36:22.

that Farage and Hamilton dynamic. Ukip is a life political

:36:23.:36:26.

institution, people have... There are personality feuds and

:36:27.:36:31.

difficulties. I do not think we lose anything by saying that we are

:36:32.:36:34.

normal red-blooded individuals and have the same kind of tips that

:36:35.:36:40.

other parties have. Ukip is strengthened by these kinds of

:36:41.:36:46.

scraps, I think. We heard some of the e-mails about you, does it

:36:47.:36:50.

disturb you that some members regard you as a controversial, even a toxic

:36:51.:36:56.

vigour in the party? Well, this is all exaggerated. It is just tittle

:36:57.:37:03.

tattle. That was one e-mail amongst many thousands of e-mails I have

:37:04.:37:09.

had. There were several e-mails, articles said that your name has the

:37:10.:37:15.

appendage disgraced former Tory MP. Hearty members do not seem to be too

:37:16.:37:19.

bothered about that, because they voted for me in overwhelming numbers

:37:20.:37:23.

to be the candidate in the Welsh assembly in my region. -- party

:37:24.:37:29.

members. I topped the poll in the national executive elections with

:37:30.:37:31.

the highest number of votes anybody has ever got in an NEC election. I

:37:32.:37:39.

would have thought it may be a lesson learned, expenses. That was a

:37:40.:37:45.

misrepresentation, and the innuendo was entirely dismissed after an

:37:46.:37:49.

internal investigation. So you did not claim for staying at your wife's

:37:50.:37:54.

place? I am not going to go into what I did or did not claim for in

:37:55.:38:01.

my expenses when I was the Ukip campaign director. I had a pay

:38:02.:38:05.

package which was agreed, and all my pay and expenses were legitimate.

:38:06.:38:10.

You know, the key point here is that Ukip is now a major player in the

:38:11.:38:15.

land, we will elect ten members to the Welsh assembly... You have said

:38:16.:38:18.

that, and you hope to be one of them. Would you ever see yourself as

:38:19.:38:25.

the future leader of Ukip? At my age, your age? We are

:38:26.:38:28.

contemporaries! I do not see myself as a future leader. That is be

:38:29.:38:30.

enough, Neil Hamilton. It's just gone 11:35,

:38:31.:38:33.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. Good morning and welcome

:38:34.:38:42.

to Sunday Politics Scotland. Ukip launched its Scottish

:38:43.:38:44.

manifesto this week - we'll be speaking to David Coburn

:38:45.:38:50.

about its proposals and asking if the party is too British

:38:51.:38:53.

to do well in Scotland. An invigorated Scottish Green Party

:38:54.:38:55.

is fighting its We'll ask Patrick Harvie

:38:56.:38:57.

if they can win enough The offshore banking industry has

:38:58.:39:01.

taken a beating this week, but is there a legitimate role

:39:02.:39:10.

for the tax haven? Ukip's Scottish leader David Coburn

:39:11.:39:16.

contrasts his party with the "tired old establishment parties

:39:17.:39:21.

which spout the same old havers". As he launched its manifesto

:39:22.:39:23.

alongside Nigel Farage in Edinburgh on Thursday, he promised to shake up

:39:24.:39:27.

Holyrood with additional tax bands, a reintroduction of smoking rooms

:39:28.:39:33.

in pubs, a relaxation of airgun licences and revision

:39:34.:39:35.

of the new drink-driving limits. But the party has yet to win

:39:36.:39:37.

a seat in the parliament. Huw Williams has been finding out

:39:38.:39:40.

what Ukip needs to do In the published their Holyrood

:39:41.:39:58.

manifesto on Thursday. They set out their long-term aim to cut income

:39:59.:40:02.

tax, reduced the Scottish Government's budget, raise the

:40:03.:40:07.

drink-drive limit back to the level it falls across the rest of the UK

:40:08.:40:08.

drink-drive limit back to the level and to allow pubs and clubs to bring

:40:09.:40:13.

back smoking rooms. Their leader David Cockburn was born in Glasgow,

:40:14.:40:17.

he worked as an art dealer and a city trader and served in the

:40:18.:40:21.

Territorial Army. He hit the headlines last year when he compared

:40:22.:40:25.

the Scottish Government minister to a convicted terrorist. He apologised

:40:26.:40:26.

and said it was a joke. The polls a convicted terrorist. He apologised

:40:27.:40:35.

suggest the message of Ukip resonates with some Scottish waters.

:40:36.:40:38.

Central to the success of Ukip throughout the UK has been its

:40:39.:40:41.

stance on immigration, the idea that everywhere in the European Union we

:40:42.:40:45.

could have less immigration. Whilst Scotland is not as concerned as

:40:46.:40:48.

England is about immigration, it could be said that this is one thing

:40:49.:40:52.

north of the border that Ukip could hope to score on.

:40:53.:40:55.

It seems the party faced some real problems when it comes to selling

:40:56.:40:59.

the message in Scotland. The difficulty north of the border

:41:00.:41:05.

is that Ukip seems to be seen as an English party and that does not go

:41:06.:41:08.

down well here. It is clear that Scotland is much keener on the

:41:09.:41:12.

meaning inside the European Union than most of England and Wales, and

:41:13.:41:18.

therefore, this is the difficult for Ukip to make progress here.

:41:19.:41:23.

Ukip have never had an MSP elected to serve at Holyrood. The party

:41:24.:41:28.

would point out it is just two years since the reader became Ukip's first

:41:29.:41:32.

elected representative in Scotland when he won a European Parliament

:41:33.:41:34.

receipt. -- seat. David Coburn joins me now. Do you

:41:35.:41:48.

think Nigel Farage will continue as Ukip Leader wish absolutely, we did

:41:49.:41:53.

not have our referendum if it was not for him.

:41:54.:41:59.

This issue that has come up this week, a former Ukip candidate, Jack

:42:00.:42:03.

Newell, he appeared on the front of The Herald. You said you would think

:42:04.:42:09.

about how to react. Have you decided?

:42:10.:42:13.

I did not know what he was up to. I was told that he was wearing the

:42:14.:42:17.

outfit of the clouds and sitting in his bath playing an electric organ.

:42:18.:42:22.

That is not smart. He is a student, he has done something extremely

:42:23.:42:25.

stupid and he did not realise the impact of what he was doing. He

:42:26.:42:29.

should not be doing things like that. When people join the party,

:42:30.:42:36.

they pay their 30 quiet. We do not have a window into their souls or a

:42:37.:42:39.

crystal ball to see what they will do next. If they do something daft,

:42:40.:42:47.

we will have a word and sort it out. You do not have a crystal ball but

:42:48.:42:50.

you know what he has now done. Will you suspend him from the party?

:42:51.:42:53.

That is not for me to tell you, it is for the party's disciplinary

:42:54.:42:57.

committee. Would you like to apologise?

:42:58.:43:04.

I think he has done that. He said, "This is what it chapters

:43:05.:43:08.

for entertainment." If you sit in your back-up naked it

:43:09.:43:14.

their static sampling and organ, that is a silly student and he has

:43:15.:43:19.

done something bad. I am sure he is in Paris. -- bathtub.

:43:20.:43:24.

Let me tell you this constructively as I possibly can. What about the

:43:25.:43:32.

remarks you made about Humza Yousaf? The SNP have been accused of all

:43:33.:43:35.

sorts of things. Accusations have been made against them as they are

:43:36.:43:39.

against all parties. This happens, we cannot control it all. It does

:43:40.:43:45.

not relate to us. Ukip are the most Liberal Party you can possibly

:43:46.:43:50.

imagine, we are Libertarian party. We cannot get more broad-minded than

:43:51.:43:56.

that. A lot of people watching this

:43:57.:43:58.

programme might agree with you on issues like Europe and immigration,

:43:59.:44:01.

but the problem Ukip has always had is that people think, actually, it

:44:02.:44:05.

is not a mainstream party, scratch the surface...

:44:06.:44:07.

The only people that think that the press and they do that because they

:44:08.:44:10.

are part of the establishment and they do not like the fact that we

:44:11.:44:15.

can do well, we will go in and shake up the establishment. They are

:44:16.:44:20.

terrified of that. You do not intend to take any

:44:21.:44:24.

further action? It is not my place to do with this,

:44:25.:44:28.

it is for the disciplinary part of the party. I would not want to do

:44:29.:44:34.

anything to put a case before that. That is not part of my business.

:44:35.:44:39.

You are the only party who has published a manifesto for the

:44:40.:44:42.

Scottish elections. Absolutely. The good thing about it

:44:43.:44:46.

is that the Glasgow Herald had nothing to see how good our

:44:47.:44:49.

manifesto was. So they started to bring this nonsense into it.

:44:50.:44:56.

You want a 30p rate of tax. Yes, for the ?350,000 group.

:44:57.:45:05.

Once George Osborne lowers his tax threshold, are you still suggesting

:45:06.:45:07.

Once George Osborne lowers his tax that you're 30p would be there?

:45:08.:45:12.

This is an aspiration. We will not be in government, we would love to

:45:13.:45:16.

be, but we will not be. I do not think that Scotland should have

:45:17.:45:20.

taxes higher than those in England. That is your... Under your manifesto

:45:21.:45:26.

proposals as they currently stand, some in Scotland would pay more tax

:45:27.:45:31.

than in England on some of their income? Once George Osborne takes

:45:32.:45:38.

the 40p there showed up to 50,000, someone who was earning ?58,000

:45:39.:45:42.

would pay ?30 under your proposals on some of their income but only 20p

:45:43.:45:46.

in England. We want to broaden it out. That will

:45:47.:45:50.

not be the case. That flatly contradicts almost the

:45:51.:45:53.

first thing you have said in your manifesto.

:45:54.:45:57.

That is our aspiration. That is what we want.

:45:58.:46:03.

Your manifesto states you oppose any suggestions that would result in the

:46:04.:46:06.

income tax being higher than the rest of the UK.

:46:07.:46:11.

That is correct. I do not understand what you are talking about, it is

:46:12.:46:15.

quite clear. What is quite clear is that you

:46:16.:46:19.

would be charging higher tax in Scotland and the rest of the UK.

:46:20.:46:23.

This is what a Ukip government would want to do in the future. We are

:46:24.:46:27.

concerned with the government in London at the moment and we would

:46:28.:46:30.

want in Scotland, and in England, the same thing. We want a medal 30p

:46:31.:46:36.

band rate. That seems sensible to me. But we are not in government and

:46:37.:46:40.

we do not expect to be in government this time around, that is very

:46:41.:46:44.

clear. But we want to be aiming towards this and that seems sensible

:46:45.:46:49.

to me. But what you have just told me is

:46:50.:46:52.

that there would be some people undergo a proposal in Scotland who

:46:53.:46:55.

would pay more income tax than in England.

:46:56.:46:58.

There are always winners and losers but it would be fair across the

:46:59.:47:02.

bans, it is more sensible. Even if people in Scotland end up

:47:03.:47:06.

paying more tax? Some things we have to be a little

:47:07.:47:11.

bit more and sometimes a little bit less.

:47:12.:47:13.

How can I screw that with the statement that I have just read?

:47:14.:47:16.

We have different circumstances at the moment. When we have a Ukip

:47:17.:47:20.

government, that is what we want. That is what we are aiming for,

:47:21.:47:24.

seems clear to me. I do not see how one scorers with

:47:25.:47:28.

the other. What realistically did want to achieve in this election?

:47:29.:47:35.

Our objective is to make sure that Scotland has taxes no higher than

:47:36.:47:38.

that of the best of the UK. What I would like to see... Please, let me

:47:39.:47:46.

finish. Jobs, jobs, jobs. We want to create jobs and in Scotland we do

:47:47.:47:50.

not want Scotland to be putting a penny on this and that, that will

:47:51.:47:54.

not help the Scottish economy. How many seeds you think you were

:47:55.:47:58.

one or would you like to win? I would like to break through.

:47:59.:48:06.

According to... Getting an MSP, that would be a

:48:07.:48:09.

victory for do? I am trying to answer your question.

:48:10.:48:14.

From what I can see in the polls, they survey should pull in the

:48:15.:48:17.

e-mail and Andy Daily Record, which is no friend of Ukip, neither are

:48:18.:48:22.

particularly friendly to Ukip, they have said we will get seven seats.

:48:23.:48:28.

That would be nice, very happy to have them, but if we can get any

:48:29.:48:31.

seeds, I would be happy. If you get one MSP, you would say

:48:32.:48:37.

that was a step forward as far as you are concerned?

:48:38.:48:40.

Yes, I would like to get more but it is up to the Scottish people. We

:48:41.:48:43.

will have to wait and see what happens. As I have told you, it

:48:44.:48:49.

looks like seven seats. We have many people coming from the other

:48:50.:48:52.

parties. The Labour Party is imploding in Scotland. Many can

:48:53.:48:55.

never stomach voting for the Conservatives. As for the Scottish

:48:56.:49:01.

national scum are many are frightened as to what is happening

:49:02.:49:05.

in Europe. They have seen what happens to smaller countries in

:49:06.:49:09.

Europe if they do not agree with the European Union. Austerity and

:49:10.:49:16.

suchlike. Greece was forced to be... Are you standing in any of the

:49:17.:49:19.

constituencies? No, we are not. We are trying to get

:49:20.:49:24.

everyone to vote for us on the list. So you are pitching to people... Who

:49:25.:49:28.

should they vote for? They should vote for Ukip and they

:49:29.:49:34.

should put as much fought in there as possible.

:49:35.:49:37.

So they should vote for you even though you are not putting up any

:49:38.:49:40.

candidates? I did not suggest that. I believe we

:49:41.:49:46.

will not win many seeds in the first past the post. It is a tactical

:49:47.:49:48.

decision. Who should the rest vote for?

:49:49.:49:59.

That is up to them. On the list, I want is to get first preference or

:50:00.:50:02.

many people's second preference. That would be fine. I think we are

:50:03.:50:06.

getting a lot of second preference votes, not only from Labour voters

:50:07.:50:10.

but the SNP and disgruntled conservatives who are opposed to the

:50:11.:50:16.

European Union. I know you have been very busy

:50:17.:50:19.

campaigning, have you had time to buy a new toaster? You said your old

:50:20.:50:23.

one in the European Union, you could not get brown toast.

:50:24.:50:31.

Yes, my toast is not good. The coasters have less power in them.

:50:32.:50:36.

When I made that thing, they came out and said that they had a plan

:50:37.:50:40.

but they would not bring it in. They have postponed until after the

:50:41.:50:46.

referendum. How interesting is that? Let me give you a tip, go shopping,

:50:47.:50:52.

I think you will find a toaster that will be suitable.

:50:53.:50:55.

I will do that, Gordon, since we have spent so much time together.

:50:56.:50:59.

Thank you, David Coburn. Thank you.

:51:00.:51:04.

The Scottish Greens will head to the polls for its fifth Holyrood

:51:05.:51:07.

election, fielding candidates in all eight regions.

:51:08.:51:09.

The party received a significant boost following the independent

:51:10.:51:11.

referendum in September and now boasts over 9,000 members.

:51:12.:51:13.

It confidently predicts that it can push the parliament to be bolder,

:51:14.:51:16.

and is hoping to improve upon the two MSPs that sat

:51:17.:51:19.

Huw Williams has been assessing their chances.

:51:20.:51:25.

The Scottish Greens publish their Holyrood manifesto this

:51:26.:51:29.

The Scottish Greens publish their Patrick Harvie said when he joined

:51:30.:51:32.

the party in 2000 they had around 500 members. Membership is now

:51:33.:51:38.

around 9000. He is from Dumbarton and disgrace himself as a fan of

:51:39.:51:40.

real ale, real food, science fiction and disgrace himself as a fan of

:51:41.:51:47.

and free software. He wants a ban on fracking and it switch away from

:51:48.:51:51.

fossil fuels. There is no doubt that the broad

:51:52.:51:55.

Green idea that we need to look after the environment, we should be

:51:56.:51:59.

concerned about climate change, and we should be changing energy

:52:00.:52:04.

production Scotland towards renewables, in principle at least,

:52:05.:52:07.

is something that is pretty widespread, at least not of the

:52:08.:52:10.

border. But polls suggest voters may not be

:52:11.:52:14.

so keen on those ideas if they mean inconvenience or cost more.

:52:15.:52:20.

There is a problem with principle to practice, particularly whether or

:52:21.:52:23.

not it means we may have to pay more or do less of what we like in order

:52:24.:52:28.

to help the environment. Asking us to use our cars less, to pay to go

:52:29.:52:33.

into cities or indeed pay more on petrol, at that point, it becomes

:52:34.:52:38.

rather more difficult to persuade people to change.

:52:39.:52:44.

Key catchphrases in the Green us campaign will be the call for

:52:45.:52:49.

Holyrood to be bolder and for Scotland to achieve more. They can

:52:50.:52:54.

party, under Patrick Harvie's leadership, really did better than

:52:55.:52:59.

2003, when a record number of seven Green MSPs were elected.

:53:00.:53:01.

of the Scottish Green Party, Patrick Harvie.

:53:02.:53:06.

I enjoyed that image of my freshfaced youth there!

:53:07.:53:14.

OK! Let's start with tax. You want a 60p rate. The SNP say they can't

:53:15.:53:19.

raise tax take even a 50p for people who are more than ?150,000. They say

:53:20.:53:25.

that because partly because people will leave the country, and partly

:53:26.:53:29.

because people will choose to pay their tax in different ways.

:53:30.:53:33.

Why do you think they're wrong? It's clear they do have the ability.

:53:34.:53:38.

The Scottish Government, the next Scottish Government under the new

:53:39.:53:41.

Scotland act will have the ability to set those bands. They are talking

:53:42.:53:46.

about tax competition, that they simply have to offer high income

:53:47.:53:50.

people the lowest tax environment, otherwise they will disappear. I

:53:51.:53:54.

just don't buy that argument that the majority of people, even in that

:53:55.:54:01.

hire additional tax band by the type of selfish individuals who would

:54:02.:54:05.

operate their family and disappear- presumably not taking their current

:54:06.:54:06.

operate their family and disappear- job with them but going to another

:54:07.:54:09.

job elsewhere- simply because they wish to avoid more attacks on the

:54:10.:54:15.

highest element of their income. Remember, we are talking what they

:54:16.:54:19.

earn over and above ?150,000. So these are people who are very

:54:20.:54:23.

wealthy, I think it is quite reasonable that they pay a bit more.

:54:24.:54:29.

But don't the SNP have a point when they say that people want just

:54:30.:54:33.

leave, there are things you can do. You can choose to take your taxes

:54:34.:54:37.

capital gains tax. There was the chap involved in private equity who

:54:38.:54:41.

said he pays less tax and is cleaner. That is not what they were

:54:42.:54:45.

doing, taking capital gains and pink capital gains tax, which is lower

:54:46.:54:49.

than high-street income tax, and this is the point the SNP may, not

:54:50.:54:55.

under the control of the Scottish Government. And secondly you can

:54:56.:54:59.

take tax on dividends from shares, which is lower than the highest rate

:55:00.:55:03.

of income tax. And also, as the SNP say, it is not under the control of

:55:04.:55:06.

Scottish Government. They have a point? There are

:55:07.:55:11.

certainly opportunities that high income or high wealth people who are

:55:12.:55:14.

motivated purely by greed, and I again say, I think that is the

:55:15.:55:18.

minority. There are opportunities that some of them have two hide tax

:55:19.:55:24.

and hide their income or pay in a different way through a shell

:55:25.:55:27.

company or what have you. They themselves so they are working for a

:55:28.:55:32.

company they in fact owner. This is a problem for every country, not

:55:33.:55:36.

just for Scotland. Not just for Scotland gaining tax powers within

:55:37.:55:40.

the UK. Not just for the UK, it is a problem for every country. There is

:55:41.:55:44.

a great deal we have to do to stigmatise that sort of behaviour

:55:45.:55:48.

and make it less possible. There are always can do that, for example in

:55:49.:55:51.

the public sector, where public sector high-paid jobs, some of which

:55:52.:55:53.

I would like to see brought within a sector high-paid jobs, some of which

:55:54.:55:59.

reasonable pay ratio, but as long as they exist we can make it clear that

:56:00.:56:01.

public sector employers will not they exist we can make it clear that

:56:02.:56:05.

cooperate with those activities. The Scottish Government as well has

:56:06.:56:08.

business support services, grants and loans and services that it

:56:09.:56:16.

provides with tax payers' money. Employers can not participate in a

:56:17.:56:18.

moral... See you think the SNP just like the

:56:19.:56:22.

courage of their convictions? I think that surprised many people

:56:23.:56:25.

that they are not put forward a radical, progressive approach to

:56:26.:56:30.

taxation. We're not just talking about the 60p rate, it is really

:56:31.:56:33.

important to remember the Green proposals are talking about the

:56:34.:56:37.

average income and salary. Anyone paying the average would pay less

:56:38.:56:43.

underarm proposals. And that is what? ?26,000. Under

:56:44.:56:52.

proposals if you're of a lack to be paying about ?2 per month more in

:56:53.:56:58.

tax. Someone on, for example, and MS people's salary with the paying

:56:59.:57:03.

more. MSPs earn a lot more than that. The funds in public services

:57:04.:57:12.

should close the gap. We are going to continue to see an credible

:57:13.:57:15.

social and economic costs that we do not deserve to bear in the society.

:57:16.:57:20.

Young people who want see the opportunities that will be created

:57:21.:57:23.

in new sustainable industries in Scotland.

:57:24.:57:28.

Housing that needs to be built. If you're going to put tax up for

:57:29.:57:30.

Housing that needs to be built. If everyone who wants more than the

:57:31.:57:32.

average, what do you want the money for?

:57:33.:57:36.

It's very clear that there are macro cuts coming to our public services

:57:37.:57:41.

as a result of the UK Government. A Scottish Government in the next

:57:42.:57:44.

session will have the powers to reverse those cuts any fear,

:57:45.:57:47.

progressive way. More specifically, what do you want

:57:48.:57:51.

to spend more money on? Local services that a great many

:57:52.:57:57.

people depend upon. Care services where we have seen people

:57:58.:57:59.

historically underpaid for care work. Whether that is paid care in

:58:00.:58:03.

local authorities or the third sector, or the carer's allowance for

:58:04.:58:08.

unpaid carers who deserve some sort of recompense. We would like to see

:58:09.:58:13.

that increased by 50%. There are opportunities to invest in the

:58:14.:58:18.

education of young people need. How much will you tax increases

:58:19.:58:21.

raise? The income tax proposals we have

:58:22.:58:29.

proposed will raise ?231 million. We are making it clear that the

:58:30.:58:33.

proposals were making our about local council setting the rate. If

:58:34.:58:41.

councils set it at 7p on the pounds, it would raise about the same as

:58:42.:58:45.

council tax. This is to protect public services and invest in the

:58:46.:58:49.

homes, jobs and services that our country needs. We have a critical

:58:50.:58:53.

decision to make- do we want to continue this race to the bottom,

:58:54.:58:56.

not just in taxation, but in the quality of our public services and

:58:57.:59:01.

investment in our economy. A lot of people watching this will

:59:02.:59:05.

save this sounds just like what Labour say. It is just

:59:06.:59:09.

tax-and-spend. It's not that you have any ideas for raising tax and

:59:10.:59:13.

doing anything innovative original, you just want to spend money?

:59:14.:59:20.

We have set very clearly ways of raising revenue and ways we think it

:59:21.:59:23.

can be done fairly. We've also set out a report on how Scotland needs

:59:24.:59:29.

to invest in jobs which will replace those industries which do not have

:59:30.:59:32.

an infinite life ahead of them. We've been arguing for a transition

:59:33.:59:38.

away from fossil fuels. We have also been arguing in the long-term and

:59:39.:59:41.

short-term this can be good for people's wallets. Wasting less money

:59:42.:59:46.

on energy that is going out the window.

:59:47.:59:49.

Anyone who is paid more than the average will be paying more income

:59:50.:59:53.

tax. Presumably, you would like them to pay more tax on fuel as well?

:59:54.:59:58.

Yet we're all going to be better off? Fuel duty is being devolved, --

:59:59.:00:06.

not being devolved, some are not quick to set out... Public transport

:00:07.:00:11.

is always the better option. You see the type of countries that get

:00:12.:00:16.

public transport and walking and cycling infrastructure right, they

:00:17.:00:18.

have world-class services because they know they need to invest and

:00:19.:00:22.

protect that investment. Some of them so have their own book we owned

:00:23.:00:27.

railway companies. One of them, they're publicly owned railway is

:00:28.:00:30.

running one of our Railways! I don't see why we can't have a publicly

:00:31.:00:36.

owned railway we can invest in. And all these countries you mention

:00:37.:00:40.

are economically doing less well this moment than the United Kingdom.

:00:41.:00:45.

Depends what you mean by less well. Greens have always argued we

:00:46.:00:48.

shouldn't just judge a record in terms of GDP. GDP doesn't tell you

:00:49.:00:53.

in whose interest the money is working. I economy is doing terribly

:00:54.:00:58.

at protecting the well being of those for now register being

:00:59.:01:02.

dependent on foodbanks. I think our economy is doing terribly at

:01:03.:01:05.

protecting the well being of those who are in industries which are

:01:06.:01:08.

coming to the end of their lives, and we're not investing in the

:01:09.:01:12.

alternatives. I was doing terribly at having a

:01:13.:01:15.

much lower rate of unemployment than countries like France and Spain?

:01:16.:01:20.

When George Osborne talks about a low rate of unemployment, he is

:01:21.:01:24.

looking great people who are in precarious unemployment, people in

:01:25.:01:26.

zero hours contracts. Hang on, if I was... I think it is

:01:27.:01:34.

about 50% of young people and Spain who are unemployed and can't find a

:01:35.:01:39.

job. I think I would say, precarious employment sounds absolutely

:01:40.:01:41.

wonderful, can we have some of that year?

:01:42.:01:46.

Spain has been subject to even more brutal austerity economic son this

:01:47.:01:48.

country. That is not a defence of austerity.

:01:49.:01:52.

What are your goals for this election?

:01:53.:01:54.

Hammy seats would you like to win? I think this is the most realistic

:01:55.:02:01.

chance we have had of getting an MSP in each one of Scotland's regions.

:02:02.:02:06.

There are eight regions, I think we can get more than one in some

:02:07.:02:11.

regions. If in that ballpark, we are potentially approaching double

:02:12.:02:15.

figures. For the first time with have an MSP representing every voter

:02:16.:02:18.

in Scotland. The regional vote in every part of the Scotland can elect

:02:19.:02:22.

eight Green MSP. I want to get a sense from all party

:02:23.:02:28.

leaders - you think it would be a failure if you get less eight MSPs?

:02:29.:02:32.

Fewer than eight, I should say. If we went from two MSPs to seven, I

:02:33.:02:38.

wouldn't say that was a failure. I would be disappointed about the one

:02:39.:02:44.

region we don't have an MSDN, and redouble a reference to get that one

:02:45.:02:47.

next time. What is the maxim in you could get?

:02:48.:02:54.

I'm log in to set a maximum limit on aspirations. I would like us Green

:02:55.:03:01.

MSP in every region. I would like voters to think,... Labour needs to

:03:02.:03:09.

be -- SNP need to be put under pressure on issues like fracking,

:03:10.:03:13.

land reform, rent control. We put them under pressure and constructive

:03:14.:03:19.

pressure. Not just saying everything they do is terrible, but getting

:03:20.:03:22.

results by the way we engage with the Scottish Parliament and the

:03:23.:03:23.

Scottish Government. Thank you. If you meet David Coburn

:03:24.:03:29.

on the way out, you could take on shopping freighters do.

:03:30.:03:31.

I think that's unlikely. The Prime Minister has published

:03:32.:03:33.

details about his income and tax payments to try to defuse a row

:03:34.:03:35.

about his financial affairs. The figures cover

:03:36.:03:38.

the past six years. headlines after documents -

:03:39.:03:42.

leaked from a law firm in Panama - showed that his late father set

:03:43.:03:44.

up an offshore trust. He later disclosed that he'd

:03:45.:03:47.

profited from selling Yesterday, Mr Cameron acknowledged

:03:48.:03:49.

that he'd taken too long to give Although he pays all the taxes that

:03:50.:04:03.

were due, David Cameron is facing accusations from labour that he

:04:04.:04:07.

misled the public about his personal involvement in his late father's

:04:08.:04:12.

offshore fund. He came under pressure to tackle money-laundering

:04:13.:04:16.

and tax evasion. It's not about the individual or one

:04:17.:04:20.

person, it is about a whole ethos where the very rich are able to put

:04:21.:04:25.

their money into tax havens, offshore accounts, whether it often

:04:26.:04:28.

easy rate of income tax. Sometimes also a zero rate of corporate or

:04:29.:04:33.

capital gains tax. That untaxed money does not contribute anything

:04:34.:04:39.

to the public services of the people of the country they come from.

:04:40.:04:45.

Yesterday, protesters gathered outside the Conservative spring

:04:46.:04:49.

Forum, at a venue in central London. They demanded the Prime Minister

:04:50.:04:53.

handed in his resignation. There is no suggestion that Mr

:04:54.:04:55.

Cameron has done anything illegal, There is no suggestion that Mr

:04:56.:04:59.

but he admits he mishandled the questions about his family's tax

:05:00.:05:02.

affairs. I know that I should have handled

:05:03.:05:05.

this bettered. I could have handled this better. I know there are

:05:06.:05:10.

lessons to learn, and I will learn them. I don't blame -- and don't

:05:11.:05:16.

blame ten Downing St on Amis advisers, blame me.

:05:17.:05:23.

David Cameron has also revealed that a new task force will investigate

:05:24.:05:28.

accusations of money-laundering in the Panama Papers. But will that be

:05:29.:05:30.

enough to silence critics? While politicians have

:05:31.:05:36.

been making capital - if you'll forgive the pun -

:05:37.:05:38.

out of the Prime Minister's personal situation -

:05:39.:05:41.

there are wider questions around The huge leak of documents

:05:42.:05:43.

from the Panamanian law firm Mossack Fonseca has revealed how tax

:05:44.:05:46.

havens are used to hide wealth. Critics question the ethics

:05:47.:05:49.

of the rich in avoidance of paying income tax,

:05:50.:05:51.

corporation tax and capital gains. On the other side, some finance

:05:52.:05:53.

experts point to legitimate reasons for the financial arrangements

:05:54.:05:56.

and emphasise that most of those who invest in them

:05:57.:05:58.

are not breaking the law. I'm joined now by the Telegraph

:05:59.:06:00.

columnist Juliet Samuel, who's in our London studio,

:06:01.:06:03.

and by the financial First, Juliet Samuel, a lot of

:06:04.:06:15.

people will look at these offshore tax havens and think, this all

:06:16.:06:20.

smells bad, but are there are legitimate reasons, do you believe,

:06:21.:06:25.

that companies could be registered there or that individuals could want

:06:26.:06:31.

to keep their money there? There are certainly legitimate

:06:32.:06:33.

reasons for being registered on the offshore companies to do business.

:06:34.:06:37.

Some reasons include that you want to invest in a developing country

:06:38.:06:44.

who are going on sure they could expose you to political risk or

:06:45.:06:48.

corruption. So you might want to register offshore in order to make

:06:49.:06:53.

your investment less of a rest. Or it might be easier... I mean, there

:06:54.:06:58.

are many funds such as the one that Mr Cameron was invested in which our

:06:59.:07:06.

registered offshore but which are not avoiding UK tax but which are

:07:07.:07:08.

registered offshore because these offshore centres are more efficient

:07:09.:07:11.

and quick and cheap at setting up forms and make it easier for

:07:12.:07:17.

international investors for area by Mike due restrictions to invest into

:07:18.:07:18.

them. You have to efficient, that is a

:07:19.:07:21.

word that will make people suspicious. Investment trusts, you

:07:22.:07:25.

are trading on the stock exchange, you can buy them, they are traded on

:07:26.:07:30.

the London Stock Exchange, why would someone want to set up an investment

:07:31.:07:37.

trust that is based on a tax haven? In some cases, it is so that

:07:38.:07:42.

international investors who are not UK investors, do not activate the

:07:43.:07:48.

entire UK tax by investing in a foreign company in the UK. A lot of

:07:49.:07:51.

farms will be attracting investors from the Middle East, the US, all

:07:52.:07:56.

around Europe, and if you had a fund set up in the UK, it is much more

:07:57.:08:02.

difficult to ensure that investors do not accidentally incur tax and

:08:03.:08:06.

that they actually do not have to pay. So that could be one reason.

:08:07.:08:14.

Another reason, for example, in Ireland, it is just much faster to

:08:15.:08:17.

set up a fund, there is more expertise there to set them up.

:08:18.:08:22.

There is a whole industry which has been built around doing so, it takes

:08:23.:08:26.

half the time in some offshore centres to set up a fund than it

:08:27.:08:31.

does in the UK. Did you agree, Ian Fraser, are there

:08:32.:08:34.

legitimate reasons for having these things?

:08:35.:08:37.

Yes, and Juliet Samuel has outlined some of those. The trouble however

:08:38.:08:40.

is that they all offshore world which includes lawyers, company

:08:41.:08:43.

formation agents, using which includes lawyers, company

:08:44.:08:48.

jurisdictions like the Cayman Islands, Panama etc, it has been

:08:49.:08:52.

totally corrupted, so even though there are legitimate businesses

:08:53.:08:56.

including asset management companies using it, a lot of other companies

:08:57.:09:02.

are money launderers, gangsters, drug runners, sorry drug barons and

:09:03.:09:09.

so on. Deposed dictators who want to hide their cash a week without the

:09:10.:09:11.

authorities in their native countries knowing where the money

:09:12.:09:15.

is. Is it in principle possible to

:09:16.:09:20.

separate? Let us pretend I was a multinational company and that I had

:09:21.:09:24.

a legitimate reason, I wanted to aggravate payments from around the

:09:25.:09:27.

world and I wanted to take them back to America and pay the taxes that I

:09:28.:09:33.

will. Is there anyway that I can do that without being tainted with what

:09:34.:09:35.

you have just described? I think there are remains reasons

:09:36.:09:40.

for that but it is more likely that you would be kind deed and put in

:09:41.:09:43.

the same kind of bracket as the abusers of the offshore system. I

:09:44.:09:47.

agree with the likes of Caroline Lucas and the Green Party. I agree

:09:48.:09:53.

with Thomas Docherty, the French economist, that this is something

:09:54.:09:57.

that is actually harming the financial system. It is making our

:09:58.:10:03.

financial system more precarious, it is encouraging international crime.

:10:04.:10:06.

It is encouraging the looting of third World countries. These tax

:10:07.:10:09.

havens ought to be shut down. That is my view.

:10:10.:10:14.

What do you make of that, Juliet Samuel? After the financial crisis,

:10:15.:10:18.

there was an argument, was there not, similar to that, that there

:10:19.:10:23.

were entire areas of finance that were very obscure and people could

:10:24.:10:26.

not understand. People said they should be shut down, there is no

:10:27.:10:29.

reason to have them and the world would not be a worse place for not

:10:30.:10:34.

having them. Ironically, a lot of those things

:10:35.:10:39.

that were shot down, politicians are now trying to restart. And that is

:10:40.:10:42.

because some of them did have economic benefits such as a form of

:10:43.:10:47.

security. I agreed with Ian Fraser up until he said we should shut them

:10:48.:10:52.

all down. There are certainly many criminals who are using offshore

:10:53.:10:56.

havens in order to avoid breaking reasonable and fair laws and onshore

:10:57.:11:03.

places. But the idea that we can or should just shut them down, I do not

:11:04.:11:08.

even know what that would mean. Many of these offshore jurisdictions are

:11:09.:11:13.

foreign countries. We can put some of them on blacklists as we have

:11:14.:11:16.

done, that that does not involve shutting them down. What we should

:11:17.:11:18.

be doing and in fact, what the shutting them down. What we should

:11:19.:11:22.

government has been doing, or they are trying to do, is to put pressure

:11:23.:11:26.

on them to improve the regulations because they be that you would make

:11:27.:11:30.

on them to improve the regulations it harder for criminals to use these

:11:31.:11:32.

jurisdictions is to force them to register their information and

:11:33.:11:37.

forced jurisdictions to collect that information and make it available to

:11:38.:11:41.

authorities in other countries as they have a good reason. That is

:11:42.:11:45.

something that is happening slowly under pressure, but shutting them

:11:46.:11:49.

down is not an option. The trouble is they are resisting

:11:50.:11:53.

it, but at the British Virgin Islands, for example, there was a

:11:54.:12:01.

massive leak in 2013 secret information involving a lot of

:12:02.:12:02.

massive leak in 2013 secret criminal abuse of tax havens there.

:12:03.:12:05.

But they did not respond by tiding up their act, they did not try to be

:12:06.:12:08.

more transparent. The Labour Party has suggested we

:12:09.:12:12.

could take direct control of some of these jurisdictions that have

:12:13.:12:15.

British territories. The problem not that there are lots of add-ons and

:12:16.:12:18.

small independent countries around the world which could take up the

:12:19.:12:24.

slack? So unless there was pretty much unanimous international

:12:25.:12:26.

agreement to blacklist these countries, that wherever you shut

:12:27.:12:29.

one down, another will pop up elsewhere?

:12:30.:12:35.

That is a danger, there is a new one of the coast of New Zealand in the

:12:36.:12:38.

Pacific. It was established by Mossack Fonseca as a tax haven. A

:12:39.:12:45.

secret jurisdiction. There is always that risk. Basically, the British

:12:46.:12:48.

government has been pussyfooting around this issue for the last six

:12:49.:12:53.

years and it was doing virtually nothing in the previous period

:12:54.:12:55.

years and it was doing virtually either. They need to shape up their

:12:56.:13:00.

act, they have to address this. Surely this has to be an

:13:01.:13:04.

international issue? No matter what the British government does, if

:13:05.:13:07.

another government of a big country does not do it, I can just shut my

:13:08.:13:12.

money there and throw that into the tax haven.

:13:13.:13:17.

International law is actually necessary, definitely. Without that

:13:18.:13:22.

it would be very difficult. Briefly, Juliet Samuel, is that

:13:23.:13:24.

it would be very difficult. realistic, that we can do something?

:13:25.:13:28.

Yes, and actually, the government have tried to do that and read it at

:13:29.:13:32.

the G8. If you had corporation it would be harder for offshore centres

:13:33.:13:36.

to simply carry on without enforcing regulations, some of which are

:13:37.:13:40.

already on the books. OK, we will have to leave it there.

:13:41.:13:44.

Ian Fraser and Juliet Samuel, from London, thank you both very much

:13:45.:13:46.

indeed for joining us. I'll be back at the

:13:47.:13:47.

same time next week.

:13:48.:13:52.

Andrew Neil and Gordon Brewer with the latest political news, interviews and debate. Andrew discusses the EU referendum with Penny Mordaunt MP, Ukip with Neil Hamilton and the Panama Papers with Kamal Ahmed. On the political panel are the Daily Mail's Isabel Oakeshott and Sam Coates and Beth Rigby from The Times.


Download Subtitles

SRT

ASS