Browse content similar to 01/05/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Jeremy Corbyn struggles to get a grip on the turmoil inside his | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
party after Ken Livingstone's comments on Hitler and Zionism. | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
But will the Labour leader's latest anti-Semitism review draw | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
Despite demands he should be booted out, Mr Livingstone insists he'll | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
fight to stay in the party, and refuses to apologise for saying | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
We'll discuss the implications for Labour and its leader. | :00:57. | :01:05. | |
The row comes just days before Thursday's elections across the UK. | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
We'll hear from Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and the Conservative's | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
Four days to go until the voters go to the polls. What can the parties | :01:14. | :01:27. | |
do at this late stage of the campaign to win you over? | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
why he should be London now. -- mayor. | :01:31. | :01:38. | |
And with me for the duration - Nick Watt, Janan Ganesh | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
They'll all be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp. | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
This time last week Jeremy Corbyn was in a pretty good place. | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
He'd put in a decent performance at PMQs, | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
the Tories were ripping themselves apart over the EU referendum | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
and any Labour rows seemed small beer in comparison. | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
But that was before the Guido Fawkes political blog uncovered | :02:00. | :02:01. | |
anti-Semitic tweets from a novice Labour backbencher called Naz Shah - | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
made before she was an MP - and Ken Livingstone called Hitler | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
in her aid - perhaps not the most helpful of modern | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
political interventions - leading to his suspension, | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
along with Ms Shah's from the party and calls for him to be | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
So what might have been no more than a little local difficulty has | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
become the biggest crisis in Mr Corbyn's leadership. | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
Here's Ellie with a reminder of how the story unfolded. | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
and hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that. | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
Naz Shah was apologising for this - a Facebook post that suggested | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
She'd shared it and other offensive comments two years ago. | :02:50. | :02:55. | |
On Tuesday afternoon she resigned as Parliamentary Private Secretary | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
to the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell. | :02:59. | :03:00. | |
The next day a fellow shadow frontbencher was calling | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
There has to be a suspension and an investigation when something | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
like this occurs, because it is so serious and it does have such | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
a knock on effect on people outside of parliament, in the real world. | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
Moments later, the Prime Minister waded in. | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
The fact that, frankly, we have a Labour Member | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
of Parliament, with the Labour Whip, who made remarks about | :03:26. | :03:27. | |
the transportation of people from Israel to America and talked | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
about "a solution", and is still in receipt of the Labour whip | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
After hours of speculation, Naz Shah, who was only elected | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
last year, was suspended from the Labour Party | :03:40. | :03:40. | |
But if the Labour leadership had hoped it would draw | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
a line under the issue, they were sorely disappointed, | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
because the next day, this happened... | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
You didn't find that to be anti-Semitic? | :03:52. | :03:53. | |
You have to remember, when Hitler won his election | :03:54. | :04:00. | |
in 1932 his policy then was Jews should be moved to Israel. | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
He was supporting Zionism, before he went mad and ended up | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
You Nazi apologist, you Nazi apologisist. | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
Rewriting history, rewriting history! | :04:15. | :04:15. | |
Go back and check what Hitler did, go back and check what Hitler did. | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
There was a book called Mein Kampf, you obviously haven't heard of it. | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
Ken Livingstone was on the phone to another radio station | :04:25. | :04:27. | |
when he got interrupted by the Labour MP John Mann. | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
Watched by most of the country's media, they took it inside | :04:32. | :04:33. | |
and continued their interesting difference of opinion | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
You dare say, you dare say Hitler supported Zionism. | :04:38. | :04:43. | |
I think you've lost it, Mr Livingstone. | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
It's a deliberate, calculated attempt to cause problems, | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
You certainly shouldn't be an Labour's National Executive. | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
I've not said Hitler was a Zionist, what I said was his policy in '32 | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
was to deport Germany's Jews to Israel. | :05:04. | :05:04. | |
John Mann was called to the Chief Whip's office for that | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
and told he shouldn't have big rows on the telly. | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
Other MPs voiced their opinion in Parliament instead. | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
Anti-Semitism is wrong, full stop, end of story. | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
I am sick and tired of people trying to explain it away - | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
and yes - I'm talking to you, Ken Livingstone. | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
Less than an hour later Ken Livingstone was suspended | :05:28. | :05:29. | |
from the Labour Party, and chased by the media. | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
Do you want to apologise for causing any offence? | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
While Ken was indisposed, Jeremy Corbyn was trying not to let | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
the issue occupy his local election campaigning, even if he had been | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
forced to suspend one of his closest allies. | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
It's not a crisis, there is no crisis. | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
Where there is any racism in the party, it will be dealt with, | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
I have been an anti-racist campaigner all my life. | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
I suspect that much of this criticism, that you're saying | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
about a crisis in the party, actually comes from those | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party at local level. | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
But it has been a damaging week for Labour, whose leadership | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
promised to get a grip on anti-Semitism. | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
Ken Livingstone insisted he had nothing more to say. | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
I've got to do the washing now, doing some work on the pond, | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
Well, Ken Livingstone didn't stay quiet for long. | :06:24. | :06:33. | |
In fact yesterday morning he appeared on the London radio | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
After the broadcast, he had this to say to | :06:37. | :06:45. | |
If people have been offended, I'm really sorry about that. | :06:46. | :06:48. | |
But they're not offended because I said the truth, | :06:49. | :06:50. | |
exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister of Israel said | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
48 hours earlier, they've been offended by the scrutiny | :06:54. | :06:55. | |
of embittered old Blairite MPs stirring up all these | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
accusations of anti-Semitism, when I said on the programme 80 | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
Labour Party Jewish members have a letter in the Guardian | :07:04. | :07:05. | |
today saying they've never experienced anti-Semitism. | :07:06. | :07:07. | |
We've had a handful of people who have said things | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
They have been suspended or expelled immediately by Jeremy. | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
It is filled with people campaigning against racism and anti-Semitism. | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
Speaking on BBC One earlier this morning, | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Mark Regev, | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
said a line has been crossed in the anti-semitism row | :07:27. | :07:28. | |
Of course people have the right to criticise the government of Israel - | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
If you follow the very vigorous public debates | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
we have in my country, you'll know that every | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
government position is open to debate in the parliament, | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
in the press, in a very, very robust civil society. | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
It's not about criticising Israel, it's about demonising | :07:51. | :07:51. | |
The comments we've heard over the last two or three weeks | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
that were made public, it has nothing to do | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
with criticising this or that particular Israeli policy - | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
it's demonising and a vilification of my country, and its | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
But Jeremy Corbyn's close ally Diane Abbott told Andrew Marr | :08:06. | :08:14. | |
that Labour doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism. | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
The reality is that there have been 12 for incidents in the period | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
when Jeremy's leader, and some of those remarks predate | :08:24. | :08:25. | |
200,000 people have joined the party. | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
What is your message to him now, should he apologise properly? | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
Have you ever known Ken apologise for anything? | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
No, but this might be the time to start! | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
Ken's remarks were extremely offensive. | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
He was suspended within hours, there's going to be an investigation | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
and the party will decide what happens to Ken. | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
We did ask the Labour Party for an interview with someone | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
from the Shadow Cabinet, but no one was available. | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
We're joined now from Exeter by the former Labour culture | :09:02. | :09:03. | |
Welcome to the programme. In your view how big a problem does Labour | :09:04. | :09:18. | |
have with anti-Semitism? Well, in a week where the Conservatives are | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
doing terrible damage to our education system, the National | :09:23. | :09:24. | |
Health Service and are themselves apart on Europe, I would not want to | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
be on your programme on Sunday talking about this. In a way I agree | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
with Diane Abbott, I don't think we have a massive problem but the way | :09:33. | :09:35. | |
we have mishandled this whole crisis, which has been going on for | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
weeks, although Ken Livingstone has done his best to make it worse, the | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
way we have handled the crisis has made it seem worse than it is. What | :09:44. | :09:50. | |
do you make of Ken Livingstone's claim this is just basically a group | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
of embittered old Blairite MPs trying to undermine the new order? | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
I've seen you would include you in that. | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
One of the first people to call for Ken Livingstone to leave the party | :10:03. | :10:09. | |
was John Lassman, the head of Momentum, on the hard left. I think | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
the popular left-wing commentator Owen Jones was also very quick to | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
call for Ken Livingstone's resignation so to try to describe | :10:19. | :10:25. | |
this as some Blairite... , it looks more like some left on left battle. | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
I am increasingly of the view Ken Livingstone is a Conservative Party | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
spy who has been planted in the Labour Party and has now emerged to | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
do as much damage as he possibly can to the Labour Party. That is | :10:40. | :10:42. | |
certainly the view of my loyal Labour Party members and activists | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
and voters who came up to me asking what was going on. They were | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
outraged by his comments and defeat comes back into the party, they | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
won't vote for the party. Jeremy has finally gripped it this week with | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
the inquiry but we have got to act quickly and decisively. Has Jeremy | :11:00. | :11:09. | |
Corbyn let it drag on? There have been very sensible voices across the | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
political spectrum in the Labour Party who, for several weeks if not | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
months, have been raising concerns about this and calling for quite | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
simple and sensible solutions to wait. I think if they had been | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
listened to earlier, we could have nipped this problem in the bud. I | :11:25. | :11:34. | |
hope it has now been gripped but it will be judged on what we do. | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
Parties are judged on what they do, not what they say. The leadership | :11:40. | :11:43. | |
have said all the right things, we now need to see action. What is the | :11:44. | :11:50. | |
difference between Ken Livingstone's attitude to Israel and the Jews and | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to Israel and the Jews? I'm not quite sure I'm | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
qualified to comment on either of their attitudes to Israel and the | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
Jews. All I know is someone who has been a very strong friend of | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
Palestine, a supporter of the two state solution, the Labour Party has | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
a proud tradition of believing and supporting Israel as a state with | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
the right to exist but I think there is a problem on parts of the left. | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
They don't seem to recognise where criticism... Legitimate criticism | :12:24. | :12:31. | |
crosses over to hatred for Israel and anti-Semitism. The Labour Party | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
supports absolutely Israel's right to exist. We always have and I hope | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
we always will. We also support a Palestinian state and if we allow | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
ourselves to be diverted from that sensible position which is held by | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
all progressives all over the world, that will be a very dangerous path | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
all progressives all over the world, in my view. Are you clear in your | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
mind that Ken Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn support Israel's right to | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
exist? I cannot speak for them, I can just speak for myself. I am not | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
inside their brains and I think anybody who tried to get inside Ken | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
Livingstone's brain would find that a very challenging process. So you | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
are not sure your leaders support Israel's right to exist? The Labour | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
Party and Jeremy Corbyn I am sure 100% support Israel's right to | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
exist, but these are questions the leader can speak for on behalf of | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
himself. The chance would be a nice thing but we are grateful to speak | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
to you. In your view, I know there is due process to follow, should Ken | :13:39. | :13:48. | |
Livingstone be rejected from the Labour Party? Countless Labour Party | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
members and supporters came up to me on the streets of Exeter yesterday | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
where we are fighting very important and tough local council elections on | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
Thursday to say that if he came back, they wouldn't vote for us. If | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
he was brought back, what would be the reaction amongst your | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
colleagues? I think they would be dismayed. There is genuine anger | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
about the damage this has done at a time when the Conservatives should | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
be on the ropes. We should be 20% ahead in the opinion polls, we are | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
behind, facing very difficult local elections. We are not being an | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
effective opposition because the talk is all about turmoil in Labour. | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
Labour people are furious about that, they want the leadership to | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
get a grip, they want to be an effective opposition and they want | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
to make sure we win the next election and the elections across | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
the UK and in London. Thanks for joining us. Apologies for the | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
quality of the sound. Nick Watt, how much is this being used by those | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
opposed to Jeremy Corbyn to undermine his leadership? Yes, | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
certainly the majority of the PLP don't support his leadership. A | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
significant number of them would like to get him out, hope to do so | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
after the European referendum. That had appeared to go away and now we | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
have this crisis so maybe it will come back but I think those people | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn are not rubbing their hands and | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
saying doesn't this make him look awful. They are, as most people in | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
the Labour Party are, horrified by what this makes the Labour Party | :15:38. | :15:40. | |
look like to the electorate as a whole and would like to deal with | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
it. If you have two senior figures running after each other on | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
stairways, whatever the cause, that looks dreadful for voters but then | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
the issue you are talking about is supremely sensitive issue of | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
anti-Semitism and the people I talk to who want to get rid of Jeremy | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
Corbyn just hate what is going and feel that it is very dangerous and | :16:07. | :16:08. | |
sensitive territory for the Labour Party. Where does it go from here? | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
It depends whether the party decides this is just an embarrassment that | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
can be got over. This is when Jeremy Corbyn's leadership stopped being | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
funny, it is serious and it is not an accident or the mistake of | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
judgment that meant he didn't get rid of Ken Livingstone immediately. | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
They are very old allies, they go back a long way and you have to | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
understand that this juncture of reality, the perception is so | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
confused. I started my life on the Trotskyist left. I knew people, in | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
fact I was in Hornsea when Jeremy Corbyn was on the council there. | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
These people socialise with each other, marry each other, they never | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
go outside of their very closed self referring political activist circle. | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
So that picture that Jeremy Corbyn's first white painted of him standing | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
over a photocopier eating baked beans, we all knew that person in | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
the 1970s. These people live within their closed political frame of | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
reference, that's why there was this horrendous misunderstanding of the | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
significance of what Ken Livingstone had done and said. When they called | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
John Mann in, they insisted the whip's office called him in to be | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
disciplined as if there was some kind of moral equivalence between | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
what Ken Livingstone had said and what John Mann had said in | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
reprimanding him, that is another reflection of how out of touch they | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
are. People will wonder why the Labour Party, which has a long | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
historic track record of fighting racism, introduced legislation going | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
way back to the 1960s on something like this, why does it now have to | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
have an investigation into racism and a code of conduct on racism? | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
Because they have at the very least turned a blind eye to this kind of | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
behaviour, I would imagine for about 30 years now. I'm only surprised | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
that other people are surprised by this incident. In the 1980s people | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
like Ken Livingstone were giving views not just on Zionism but on the | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
foreign policy issues that were strident to say the least. When | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
Frank Dobson was installed rather than Ken Livingstone as London | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
mayoral candidate, a huge part of the soft left took Ken's side, now | :18:36. | :18:44. | |
we have this disproportionate punishment of John Mann versus Ken. | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
For a pattern of my lifetime there is an indulgence towards this | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
behaviour and the only surprised that it has taken this amount of | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
time for it to manifest in a crystal clear crisis which I imagine makes | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
the average swing voter look upon Labour as something unpalatable. | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
Will it have an effect on Thursday's elections? Sadiq Khan is nervous it | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
will have an effect on him as the candidate for London mayor. He | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
nominated Jeremy Corbyn but has done a good job of distancing himself | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
from him. And he was one of the first to criticise him. He did it | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
immediately. He is nervous but it is probably too late to affect the | :19:32. | :19:32. | |
campaign. OK. After their disastrous results | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
in last year's General Election, the Liberal Democrats are hoping | :19:37. | :19:39. | |
for some better luck this week. Their leader, Tim Farron, | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
says the local elections are utterly critical for the party's "survival, | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
revival and rebirth", as they go in defending just over | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
300 seats in England. But has Mr Farron's leadership over | :19:47. | :19:48. | |
the past year made any difference The last general election left | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
the party in a sorry state, going from 57 MPs down | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
to a measly eight. The result caused former leader | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
Nick Clegg to resign the very next day, triggering | :20:02. | :20:03. | |
a party leadership election. Two candidates went head-to-head - | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
the then Party President Tim Farron and former Care Minister Norman | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
Lamb. I am up for this, you are up | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
for this, I am optimistic but it will take hard work | :20:18. | :20:26. | |
and bloody mindedness. Over the last year, it's been | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
an uphill struggle for Mr Farron, having to prove to the political | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
classes that, even with eight MPs, his party is still a force | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
to be reckoned with. Although the Lib Dems successfully | :20:37. | :20:38. | |
used their hundred-odd peers to defeat the Government | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
in the Lords over tax credits, trade union reform and child | :20:42. | :20:51. | |
refugees, Lord Rennard's resignation | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
from the party executive and the legal action | :20:55. | :20:56. | |
over the election of MP And next week, Mr Farron | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
will once again be put Both the big parties are polling | :21:05. | :21:18. | |
badly, it couldn't be a better time for a Lib Dem could -- come back, | :21:19. | :21:28. | |
could there? You have summed it up very nicely. The general election | :21:29. | :21:37. | |
result last May was obviously devastating, and I am going to argue | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
it was devastating for the country as it was for the Liberal Democrats. | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
You think of these issues going on at the moment, the attack on junior | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
doctors, the Balkanisation, even potential privatisation of our | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
school system across the UK, the heartless approach to orphaned | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
refugees in Europe, and yet we are talking about divisions within the | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
Labour Party. They are indeed the most ineffective official opposition | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
probably in British political history. What would come back look | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
like? It would look like a 50% increase in our membership and | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
gaining more council by-election seats and more votes in those | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
by-elections than any other party, which incidentally is exactly what | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
is happening. There is a real sense we are finding people on the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
doorsteps being very ready to listen to our message. We have got to fight | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
for attention and to get onto the stage at all. The results last May | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
but us in that position but I am an optimistic kind of person. We have | :22:41. | :22:53. | |
an enormous challenge on our plate, we have a Tory government which is | :22:54. | :22:55. | |
very arrogant, taking for granted the fact they are in office, being | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
all the more arrogance because their official opposition is shambolic, | :22:59. | :23:00. | |
and the desperate need for the good of Britain to be a Liberal Democrat | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
revival. Given that you are doing so well in local government | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
by-elections, you must hope to do much better on Thursday than the 331 | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
English councillors you currently have? I think I would be in | :23:15. | :23:21. | |
dangerous territory if I start giving you figures but I am | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
increasingly confident we will do much better than we did last May. | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
The sense I am getting on the doorstep around the country is | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
positive, people listening. Lots of people who are progressive, | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
centre-left voters who feel utterly disappointed with the Labour Party | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
as a movement at the moment. And many people switched off by the | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
Conservatives, one example of that was a councillor in Yeovil who is a | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
case worker for the Conservative MP there who defected to the Liberal | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
Democrats, actually having to give up her job in the process because | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
she realised that what the Tories were offering last May is not what | :23:59. | :24:07. | |
they are delivering. We have started down the road of serious unfairness, | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
taking money away from people with disability, people dependent on the | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
NHS and care services, and behaving in an inhuman way towards the child | :24:17. | :24:25. | |
refugees. Will you add to your tally of council seats? I hope so. I hope | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
so and I couldn't tell you either way. You have been telling me how | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
good you are doing in the local government by-elections, why | :24:39. | :24:40. | |
wouldn't you do just as well on Thursday? I am telling you things | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
that have happened, I'm not capable of telling you things that will | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
happen. Let me come onto your key message. Your key message for the | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
local elections is you are pledging to fight unnecessary cuts to | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
university services, how credible is that when you spent five years in | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
power with the Tories presiding over these cuts? | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
We spent five years writing the economy and protecting front-line | :25:12. | :25:17. | |
services from those cuts. What happened is over five years we help | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
to get the country in a position where the books were all but | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
balanced. We got to a crossroads where we make a decision as a | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
country, do we carry on cutting or is this the time we say, we have | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
stabilise the financial situation, now it is the time to go easy and to | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
put money into front-line services? You will see at this point in time | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
we have a Conservative government that has chosen to give away tax | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
cuts to the wealthy at a time it is passing on cuts through local | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
government to social services, to schools, highways and so on. We say | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
politics is about choosing. At this point, having got the economy from | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
the brink, this is the point of government, and if the Liberal | :26:02. | :26:03. | |
Democrats are in government, we would be choosing not to give tax | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
cuts to the wealthy but supporting public services such as those run by | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
local authorities. When you were in power, in government, you close to | :26:13. | :26:19. | |
350 libraries, closed 350 youth centres and around 600 sure start | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
centres. Now you are posed as the anti-cuts party, no one will believe | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
you? When we were in government we prevented the Conservatives making | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
far greater cuts. One of the great sadness is for me, or an irony is it | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
has taken the last 12 months of seeing what the Conservatives do | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
without us to see what a difference we made. They managed to do that | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
with you in power. And now you are trying to tell the voters who are | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
against all these cuts, cuts you presided over in government. I am | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
not Jeremy Corbyn, I won't come onto this programme and say you never | :27:03. | :27:05. | |
need to make tough decisions in government. We were very clear over | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
those five years we were acting in the national interest to balance | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
those books. Whether you blame Labour or the | :27:13. | :27:20. | |
banks, the mess was there. We responded responsibly. But one of | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
the issues we should be talking more about this week but sadly Labour's | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
internal divisions has taken it off the front pages is the junior | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
doctors scandal. Remember, just over a year ago it was my colleague | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
Norman Lamb who prevented that contract being written in the first | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
place. It was only the Conservatives getting into power on their own | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
without us which meant they pushed forward on that cart to our national | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
health service. If forcing of schools to turn into academies, | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
something we blocked. Further cuts to the police, we blocked, the | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
Conservatives are now putting in place. We were the party that | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
believed we should live within our means, in our ability to fund public | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
services on the basis of how wealthy the country is. Over five tough | :28:07. | :28:09. | |
years the Liberal Democrats helped balance the books and get us out of | :28:10. | :28:15. | |
the financial crisis. We say you don't then make more cuts you don't | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
need to. You didn't lose the books, Mr Farron. You left behind a deficit | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
of about ?80 billion. Let me just finally ask you this, you have five | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
members in Holyrood, five in the cabinet is amply, two in the London | :28:34. | :28:42. | |
assembly. Of the seats up for grabs, three and 31 councillors. If you | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
don't improve in at least a couple of these areas, does your leadership | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
come under pressure, doesn't have consequences for you? -- 331 | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
councillors. You set out the case clearly at the beginning of this | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
interview, in the last couple of months we have been coming back from | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
a devastating result for us. I don't expect it to be an overnight | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
success, but my sense is as I have been knocking on doors is you find a | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
warming towards a Liberal Democrat message. A sense if you vote Liberal | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
Democrat, makes a difference. That you have people working on the | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
ground in your local community to get things done. So you will do | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
better? I just want to know if you will do better or not? I am no more | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
others since sales and new, but I'm optimistic about how we will do this | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
week. It feels more positive than a year ago. With a shocking Tory | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
government, arrogant as it is, and a Labour opposition so shambolic, this | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
is a moment where the Liberal Democrats need to recover and I'm | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
hopeful this week we will. Tim Farron, thank you for your time. | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
Well that's the Liberal Democrats, what about the Conservatives? | :29:51. | :29:52. | |
Their local election campaign has been relatively low key | :29:53. | :29:54. | |
these last few weeks, with the small matter of an EU | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
referendum campaign taking up most of their time. | :29:58. | :29:59. | |
You could say with Labour in the spotlight the pressure | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
is off the Conservatives in the English local elections. | :30:03. | :30:04. | |
These set of seats were last up for grabs in 2012, | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
when George Osborne's so-called 'omnishambles budget' had hit | :30:08. | :30:09. | |
the headlines and the Tories slumped to winning only 884 seats, | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
However, Ukip are targeting Conservative seats and significant | :30:14. | :30:21. | |
losses to Mr Farage's party could be a sign the referendum campaign isn't | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
What's more, there's been a lot of friendly fire | :30:25. | :30:31. | |
in the last few months, with councillors across the country | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
criticising government policy on a range of issues, | :30:35. | :30:36. | |
including turning all schools into academies, more directly | :30:37. | :30:37. | |
elected mayors and reductions in the grants from | :30:38. | :30:39. | |
It is not just the EU that the Conservative Party | :30:40. | :30:47. | |
And the Conservative's Local Government Minister Brandon Lewis | :30:48. | :30:53. | |
joins me now from Chelmsford in Essex. | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
Let me go straight to this business of forced academies in England. The | :30:58. | :31:09. | |
Tory Cabinet member for Oxfordshire County Council says she will have to | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
suck it up, but she thinks you have gone bonkers. Why have you gone | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
bonkers? We haven't. I have to say, from my own experience, if I look at | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
what I have seen in East Anglia and Great Yarmouth, the academies have | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
reformed education. It is a good step forward, about making those | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
schools autonomous, giving them independence. I understand | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
councillors who have been involved in education want to continue to be | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
involved in education. We have to do what is right for the pupils to get | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
that improvement in educational standards. She is not against | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
academies but against you forcing every schools to be academies. | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
Plenty others share her concerns. Why don't you listen to your own | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
people? We are listening to people. What we are saying is... You have to | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
have a two way conversation. Academies have the ability to | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
improve education. I have seen this first hand myself, with vast | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
improvement in the offer of education for pupils. We have to put | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
the pupils first. This is about making sure young people today are | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
getting the best education, the best life chances to move forward and | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
benefit from economics, growth and jobs for security. This is about | :32:27. | :32:29. | |
making sure we do what is right for the pupils and to make sure they are | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
getting the best education. We believe by putting schools in direct | :32:35. | :32:37. | |
control of their destiny is the best way to give pupils the best | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
opportunity. Whom are academies responsible accountable? I didn't | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
hear that. Whom are academies accountable to? They have shown | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
across the country having that independence, the knowledge of the | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
teachers, the headteachers who run those schools and know what is best | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
in that area... Who are they accountable to? It is important they | :33:03. | :33:11. | |
have the opportunity... I asked, to whom are they accountable? Ofsted | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
will judge schools and Ofsted goes in and looks at schools and gives a | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
review of what the school's position is and if it needs to improve, | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
Ofsted is very clear. It is transparent, there is no secret and | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
is well covered in the press local and national when schools have a | :33:28. | :33:35. | |
challenge. No local accountability? I have never seen the school that | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
has had a bad Ofsted report be able to keep it secret. It is a public | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
thing and therefore there is a clear responsibility for the people in | :33:46. | :33:48. | |
that school to move things forward, improve things. And looking at what | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
is right for the pupils. You don't want now to have parent governors, | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
so even if you get a bad Ofsted report, how do the parents hold that | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
school accountable if under the white paper you propose they | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
shouldn't be parent governors? Actually there can be parent | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
governors. What it says is there doesn't have to be. There can be | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
parent governors. I have seen academies in my own constituency and | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
elsewhere where parent governors are important. Key to this is making | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
sure the school itself, with the headteachers and the teachers | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
themselves, who know what is best to move education board, have the | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
opportunity to do that. This is about looking what is right and best | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
for pupils, to get the best possible education, the best start in life. | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
Let's look at local government spending now. You have slashed | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
grants to local government over the years. Paul Carter, Conservative | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
leader of Kent Council, he says the tank is now an empty and we really | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
are, to use another analogy, scraping the barrel. Councils, even | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
Tory councillors are saying under your government they are now | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
scraping the barrel. Local government accounts for about 25% of | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
all public expenditure. We have never been shy about being clear it | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
has to play its part in dealing with debt and deficit. Over this | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
parliament we will see local government in a very strong | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
position. What local government can do and what it is doing when you | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
look Oxfordshire, the Midlands, the North, East Anglia sharks, is making | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
sure they are efficient. -- East Anglia. It is under pound cheaper | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
than Liberal Democrat equivalents, showing really good efficiencies to | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
deliver good quality front line services. At the same time. Paul is | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
an excellent leader, but Lemi -- let me be clear, local government | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
surpluses has gone up from 13 to ?22 billion. That is a testament to the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
efficiencies local governments have shown. It shows there is capacity to | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
go further and also bearing in mind the grant from central government is | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
a small part of the finance for local government. It comes from as a | :36:09. | :36:15. | |
tax, rates and new home tax. Why does he he now Xavi cuts would have | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
a real impact, are having a real impact on people and communities? It | :36:20. | :36:28. | |
is a Conservative saying this? We have to live within our means and | :36:29. | :36:34. | |
make those difficult decisions. They deliver the best decisions to do | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
that. We have seen those efficiencies. Councils are ?80 a | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
that. We have seen those year cheaper than the Labour | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
equivalent. Or local authorities, particularly the district councils, | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
though smaller local councils, as Great Yarmouth is doing, should see | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
how they can share chief executives to make sure the efficiencies can | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
deliver good front line services, dozens of councils across the | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
country from Oxfordshire through to Staffordshire, East Anglia and the | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
Midlands are doing this. We can see more of that. There is more | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
opportunity for that. It doesn't just a liver efficiencies by better | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
front line services. When you have been making these funding cuts, why | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
have they disproportionately fallen on Labour areas, which tend to be | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
poorer, and not Tory areas which tend to be richer? Why have you hit | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
the poorer parts of this country with your cuts? With the best of | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
respect, I think the framing of that is slightly misleading. Let's get to | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
the core of what's going on. One of the worst hit councils in the | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
country has been my own in Great Yarmouth. The reason for that goes | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
back historically, before they left power Labour cut the fund that hit | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
councils with the poorest background. And those are the same | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
authorities that have the highest spending power. They had more to | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
spend per household than the equivalent Conservative verities. | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
More needs. Labour led councils like Liverpool, even if they just | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
collected the council tax, it would be ?500 per house better off | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
roughly. We need to make sure these efficiencies are there. The average | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
cup per household in the Tory area is calculated to be ?68 per person | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
per household by the end of this parliament. The Labour councils per | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
household is ?340. You are picking on the poorer parts this country. We | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
also have to bear in mind the spending power in the first places | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
much higher. Because they had more than they needed to spend on. That | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
is why their spending power can be up to ?1500 more in some places than | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
the equivalent smaller district area. They still do have higher | :38:50. | :38:54. | |
spending power per household. And that is why extra money, an extra | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
?300 million was put in for those transitional works, because as we | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
get to the end of this parliament, the change we made to put more money | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
in with a focus on social care, those authorities start to get more | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
money coming through again. Thank you for joining us, Brandon Lewis. | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
It's just gone 11.40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :39:14. | :39:15. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
Coming up on the programme: Voters go to the polls on Thursday. | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
Are their minds made up or is there anything the parties can | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
Tax has been the dominant issue of this campaign. | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
We'll be asking how the numbers add up and who gains and loses. | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
"Down with compromise, down with hesitancy" - | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
the call to workers to take part in the General Strike 90 years | :39:45. | :39:48. | |
If the Scotland Act was an attempt to allay constitutional dissent | :39:49. | :39:57. | |
by giving Holyrood increased powers, then the current election | :39:58. | :39:59. | |
campaign has shown the flaws in that argument. | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
The SNP looks on course to secure a convincing | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
Bids by Labour and the Liberal Democrats to to use the new powers | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
coming to the Scottish parliament could result in the parties | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
being pushed into third and fifth place respectively. | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
Meanwhile, the Greens, which also supports independence, | :40:17. | :40:18. | |
Even the Conservatives, bidding to take second place, | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
does so on the basis that it will strongly oppose | :40:24. | :40:26. | |
So after 18 months, is the constitution still king? | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
Professor John Curtice, is in our London studio. | :40:33. | :40:42. | |
Is there any? It is still king, isn't it? Is there any sign that any | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
thing else is altering this campaign? No, the truth is the big | :40:48. | :40:53. | |
division in Scottish electoral politics is the constitutional | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
question. Opinion polls are finding, including ones out this morning, | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
that 85% of those who voted yes in the referendum back in September | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
2014 are now backing the SNP and conversely only about 15% of those | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
who voted no backing the SNP. Of course, it's always been true that | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
the constitutional question has been one of the central question is, if | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
we go back to 2011 when the SNP won and then, the truth is that there | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
were plenty of people out there who on that occasion were voting for the | :41:25. | :41:26. | |
SNP, even not necessarily wanting | :41:27. | :41:44. | |
independence. They were saying we think SNP can provide the -- | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
Scotland with the best government. But the truth is, those days are | :41:47. | :41:48. | |
over. The foundation of the SNP's lead in the opinion polls is pretty | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
much every body who once independence, they are determined to | :41:52. | :41:53. | |
repeat their vote independence by voting for the SNP. That makes it | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
pretty much impossible for any other party to make progress. From the | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
SNP's point of view, the support for independence might not be very good | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
when it comes to a referendum but is terrific when it comes to an | :42:06. | :42:08. | |
election exit leaves everyone fighting over the other half of the | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
population. That's right. In this morning's opinion personal, it is | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
much in line with other polls since the referendum. 45%, 47% doesn't win | :42:20. | :42:27. | |
you a referendum but for a Parliamentary election, even under | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
proportional representation, when your opponents are divided between | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
two or three political parties, that puts you in a dominant position | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
because the truth is, it has looked as though the SNP have been | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
guaranteed at least 44% of the vote for the last 18 months and as we saw | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
12 months ago, can conceivably get 50%. The referendum may not have | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
been one of the referendum has provided the SNP with a very | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
foundation which is difficult to overcome for others, because it has | :42:59. | :43:00. | |
made the constitutional question something that is more popular than | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
it was and something which is now reflected in the ballot box to a | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
much greater extent than before. If the polls are correct, this election | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
is about who comes second, isn't it? Do the Tories have a chance, do you | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
think? They would love it, wouldn't they? They would love it and the | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
Tories have a chance but if one looks across the piste, the truth is | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
we had one or two that have said the Tories are close to Labour, may be | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
very slightly ahead, whereas we've had others including the one this | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
morning which has said they have a fair lead over the Conservatives. | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
The odds are still in Labour's favour but the results are certainly | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
less than 100%. To that extent at least, the Tories will go into the | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
election on Thursday still somewhat hopeful, although not expected. The | :43:50. | :43:50. | |
fact we're talking about this, it's hopeful, although not expected. The | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
not a commentary on how successful Conservatives are at 17% or 18%, the | :43:59. | :44:03. | |
high end of where they've been in the polls for the last 20 years or | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
so in Scotland, it is how far Labour can sink, and during the course of | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
this campaign, we've had two or three opinion polls which have | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
produced record low shares for Labour. Maybe the one thing that | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
will help Labour out and there are signs of this is morning, is that if | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
indeed as a result of talking about the constitutional question, and | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
when the Conservatives but... She puts off some of those no voters | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
that the SNP do have, at that might possibly help the Labour Party to | :44:37. | :44:38. | |
ensure that they say about possibly help the Labour Party to | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
conservatives. The implication is that the voters out of their hands | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
because you've described what he SNP does and what the Tories do, rather | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
than what Labour does. The thing Labour have discovered in the | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
selection is the strategy be pursued on the taxation and spending issue, | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
while it was perfectly sensible, in truth has not evidently worked. But | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
the Labour Party worked out is the people they lost to the SNP in the | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
wake of a referendum was essentially they're more left-wing vote, people | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
who had a belief in a more equal society which was part of the vision | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
of independence which the SNP put forward. Labour said we will try and | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
win these people back by outflanking the SNP on the left by saying we | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
will put up taxes on the SNP will not. A couple problems. While people | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
in Scotland would be willing to pay more, they are not necessarily keen | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
on paying more than people south of the border. At the end of the day, | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
people are going to vote for the SNP because of their views on his | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
independence, even though a majority of SNP supporters say that they | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
think the basic rate of income tax should go up. The taxation issue, as | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
central as it has been to the debate, has not shifted voters | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
because essentially, voters's views have been trimmed by their views on | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
the constitutional question. Do you think there is any merit in the | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
argument to some extent people like Dugdale have, which is look, OK, | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
we've positioned ourselves. We might not convince people for whom the | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
main thing is independence in this election, but we are playing a | :46:17. | :46:21. | |
longer game here. We're trying to reinvent the party. Absolutely | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
right. The Labour Party in Scotland does need to be reinvented but what | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
I would say is the thing the Labour Party really needs to do north of | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
the border is not simply to come up with eye-catching policies but to | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
come up with a story of the kind of Scotland it wants to create and how | :46:37. | :46:46. | |
it is going to get there. I am not sure, in truth, so far cosier | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
Dugdale has demonstrated she has that bigger story. As we saw during | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
opinion polling in the last week, people know what he SNP stand for | :46:52. | :46:59. | |
and the SNP told Scotland a picture of what they want to create during | :47:00. | :47:05. | |
the independence of action. If you ask people what the latest party | :47:06. | :47:08. | |
stands for, many people will say no. Dugdale may have a plan to reform | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
labour but the truth is, I am not sure she has shown enough of that | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
plan might be. -- Labour. One would expect to want to tell that story | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
from the rooftops in advance of the selection more than waiting | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
afterwards. The slightly tentative nature of Labour's campaign is sewn | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
up by the fact they didn't bothered to release them manifested until a | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
week before late election day. To be so late in coming up with the | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
principal election document, it did seem an extraordinary decision. | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
principal election document, it did what way think many people would say | :47:47. | :47:51. | |
was an uneventful campaign, one of the most controversial figures has | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
been you! You wrote a paper, an article, saying that if you support | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
independence, there might be certain areas where you would be better off | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
voting for one of the other parties on the SNP, like the Greens or Rise, | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
not the SNP itself and all hell broke loose. You got lots of | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
brickbats. Do you think that as this case? If the opinion polls are | :48:12. | :48:18. | |
correct and the SNP are going to get maybe over 50% of the vote, as a | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
result of that, probably mop up virtually all of the 73 first past | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
the post constituencies that are available to be won on Thursday, and | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
if the polls are also right in saying that on the list vote, the | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
SNP may not do as well, in those circumstances, the truth of the | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
arithmetic is that the SNP may well end up only getting additional MSP | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
is in one or two regions of Scotland. | :48:47. | :48:57. | |
What you do about that in a sense is up to you. If you are a committed | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
SNP supporter, the truth is you are going to vote for the SNP on both | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
votes, come what may. If, however, the position is that what actually I | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
would like to be able to do is maximise the number of MPs, MSP 's, | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
who are in favour of independence, maybe you will want to take the | :49:11. | :49:12. | |
wrist of voting for the Greens who maybe you will want to take the | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
look as though in the opinion polls they are capable of taking them on, | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
in the hope they will get more in the way of MSP. Now, that is not a | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
strategy that doesn't come without risk because the truth is, maybe the | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
SNP are not going to do as well as the opinion polls say. Maybe they | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
will need additional MSP is to get past the winning post. The paper was | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
trying to point type of the potential limitations of the | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
electoral system, where voters can be faced with a tactical dilemma. | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
What voters do about it, at the end of the day, is entirely up to them. | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
This conversation has been on the assumption that the SNP are going to | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
walk it. They will be worried, presumably on things like turnout, | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
about complacency. Looking at the other side, it wouldn't take that | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
much, would it, to stop the SNP having a | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
All parties worry about turnout. They are particularly concerned | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
about turnout. I think certainly, perhaps in one word, I would suggest | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
that probably don't set your expectations too high. If the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
constitutional question is so central to the way people are going | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
to vote, and if that is becoming more the case and some of those | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
people who voted no may not vote for SMP at the end of the day, the SNP | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
might not do much better than they did five is ago. Some of the opinion | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
polls have been suggesting they would do dramatically better. It | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
isn't in the bag for the SNP. It never is until all the votes are | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
counted. They need to press their expectations and I would say to | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
Nicola Sturgeon I know you wish to maintain the enthusiasm of your | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
supporters and that's why you're talking about the referendum but at | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
this stage of the campaign, you are trying to appeal to as wide a | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
section of the electorate as possible, particularly to the | :51:20. | :51:21. | |
undecided and they weren't necessarily share the enthusiasm and | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
interest for the independence referendum the bulk of your | :51:27. | :51:27. | |
supporters will have. Briefly, the referendum the bulk of your | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
Liberal Democrats, this was always going to be difficult for them. The | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
truth is, they're not defending very much. They did very bad five years | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
ago. The opinion polls are saying they will hang on to what they've | :51:40. | :51:47. | |
got. The Greens could well overtake the Liberal Democrats as the fourth | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
party in Holyrood. Willie Rennie might find himself even further back | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
if, indeed, Patrick Harvie has more MSPs than he does after Thursday. | :51:59. | :52:00. | |
Thank you very much for that. Tax has been the dominant | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
theme of this campaign, with pledges to keep it the same, | :52:04. | :52:05. | |
raise it for top earners, Some extraordinary claims have been | :52:06. | :52:07. | |
made about the effect it Stephen Hay, who is | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
a senior tax partner for the accountancy firm RSM, | :52:13. | :52:21. | |
joins me from our Edinburgh studio. Let's start with a controversy about | :52:22. | :52:32. | |
the proposal by Labour to raise the top rate of tax by 50p. While they'd | :52:33. | :52:39. | |
like to do that, they don't want to be because they have advice that you | :52:40. | :52:48. | |
could end up losing tax revenue explain this for those of us that | :52:49. | :52:51. | |
aren't glued to accountancy spread to -- spreadsheets. Some people say | :52:52. | :53:02. | |
19,000 people in Scotland pay tax at 45%. That is people who earn over | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
hundred ?50,000 a year. The idea of putting 5p on that tax rate to get | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
an extra somewhere between ?120 million hundred and 30 million | :53:16. | :53:25. | |
the taxpayer that pays 45%. ?150,000 the taxpayer that pays 45%. ?150,000 | :53:26. | :53:37. | |
- ?200,000, there's about 9,000 Scottish taxpayers who earn over | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
?200,000. What we don't know is how much they earn, so it could | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
significant. In general, the view seems to be if you put 5p on the | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
highest rate of tax, some of those top 9,000 could leave the country, | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
leave Scotland, to avoid that. You deal with clients who have got | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
fairly substantial funds. In your dealings with people, do you think | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
people would leave just because you'll be paying tax over those | :54:12. | :54:22. | |
earnings. Those that earn between 150-200,000 will not. I would | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
probably have said that if I was earning over ?200,000 a year, and I | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
was faced with an extra 5p on the tax, if I was in a position where I | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
was in a small or medium sized enterprise and I was able to take a | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
dividend, I would take a dividend. A dividend tax individually is going | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
to be less than 50p, around about 38p, so you'd expect a higher rate | :54:55. | :55:03. | |
taxpayer with a 50% band take a dividend rather than pay 5p on | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
earnings. There are 360,000 enterprises in Scotland and 300 of | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
those enterprises have five or fewer employees, which makes them able to | :55:14. | :55:21. | |
take a dividend. And I think the problem here is not about people | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
taking flight. It's about the fact that if a dividend were to be taken | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
instead of the 5p tax, dividend taxes are not devolved to Scotland. | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
These savings taxes. They are preserved at Westminster which means | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
the tax itself, if collected by individuals deciding to take a | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
dividend rather than a salary, it would go to Westminster. So people | :55:45. | :55:53. | |
would pay less tax, as they are paying a tax on dividend, not | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
income, but that is hopeless because the money goes straight to George | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
Osborne. That is the point here, isn't it? Yes, it is. What about | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
putting a penny up on the basic rate which both the Lib Dems and Labour | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
are proposing? Is that going to drive people away? I don't think it | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
would drive people away. It is a very interesting point. The whole | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
point about the 1p on the tax is in the current Parliament, there is no | :56:23. | :56:30. | |
option if one raises or lowers tax rates. You have to raise it for the | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
lower, higher, everyone would have to have an increase, everyone would | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
have to have a decrease. That is the problem we face today. If the | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
parties were in power, they would use the current powers available to | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
them to do so. The Scottish National Party have said they feel they would | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
not... There must be presumably at least in theory a limit to this. | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
Perhaps put people's tax up by 1p, they're not going to leave the | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
country or take their income as dividends, as you were at | :57:03. | :57:11. | |
describing. The more you have a divergences between Scotland and the | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
UK, if taxes here are higher, there is more incentive to do that. What | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
we are missing is the fact about tax 's rates and bands. We haven't seen | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
this at the moment because Scotland doesn't have the power to raise tax | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
rates and bands as they like. From the 6th of April 2017, that is when | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
the difference is going to be. You might see a 30% band coming into | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
Scotland. You might see a third % band at a particular limit, a 40% at | :57:43. | :57:49. | |
a front limit. We might see 45 bands. That's the point a lot of | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
parties are beginning to make. It's not about the 1p on the basic rate. | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
It is about when do you start paying tax at a higher rate? The issue here | :57:59. | :58:08. | |
is 25% of the population pay tax at 30%. You'd get far more people | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
paying far more tax than you would if you put 5p on the top end where | :58:14. | :58:18. | |
perhaps only 18,000 people would pay it. I expect to see bands coming in, | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
and that might make a difference. Can we make something clear and the | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
bands - the Scottish government has one of is the other parties are | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
saying that they will not do what George Osborne is going to do which | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
is raise the threshold for the 40p band, up eventually to ?50,000. And | :58:37. | :58:47. | |
they claim that various amounts of money resulting from that. It's not | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
any extra money for the Scottish government, is it? They don't need | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
to make savings the way George Osborne has to make savings. It's | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
interesting. What George Osborne isn't doing is not a competition. | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
Not for a taxpayer. A taxpayer lives in a country, whether that is | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
Scotland or the UK. What is going to happen is that in Scotland we are | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
going to have a tax system, like it or not, and that's tax system will | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
determine how much we pay in taxes based on our ability to raise that | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
money to spend. What is going to happen, going forward, is no matter | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
what George Osborne does, we will be faced with a tax position in the | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
Scottish government here and we will have to pay it. Our alternative is | :59:30. | :59:36. | |
to try to avoid paying it or to leave Scotland altogether and go to | :59:37. | :59:39. | |
England, and as we've said earlier, my view is that is not something one | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
would do unless the tax was significantly different. | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
Significantly greater. We might find those in the middle income brackets | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
are paying more tax than they are today. And, again, I'm not too for | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
those people would be the people who could leave Scotland. All right, | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
thank you very much for joining us this morning. | :00:02. | :00:02. | |
Exactly 90 years ago today thousands of people gathered on Glasgow Green | :00:03. | :00:05. | |
in Glasgow for a Mayday rally, wondering what was going to happen | :00:06. | :00:07. | |
next in the dispute between the miners and the Conservative | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
What happened, of course, was the General Strike, | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
It started in the coalfields. A dispute about wages and hours. At | :00:16. | :00:29. | |
pits across the country, work stopped on May the 4th, 1926, the | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
next day the battle began to tell the story of the strike. This was | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
produced for the government on behalf of the employers. The trade | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
unions paper highlighted what it saw as the success of the action. World | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
War I ended eight years earlier. Arguably, it had laid down the roots | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
of the general strike. It dramatically affects coal mining | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
because Cole couldn't be sent abroad. People started to rely on | :01:03. | :01:08. | |
other countries to supply them with coal. That undermined the miners. | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
There was an investigation into the miners' conditions and the | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
government suggested 13.5% of their salary would be. At and their hours | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
would be lengthened. It was a battle for control, as owners of the | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
pre-nationalisation coal industry reasserted themselves. 1926 can be | :01:33. | :01:41. | |
seen, I think, as an attempt by the employers to regain control which | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
they felt had been lost during the First World War and its aftermath. | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
They'd lost control of their workplaces, lost control of the | :01:51. | :01:53. | |
management of reduction, to some extent, with workers more confident, | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
aiming a much greater share of effective daily practical control | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
over how their work was organised. Engineers and shipbuilders in the | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
West of Scotland were not called out until seven days later, the day the | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
strike actually came to an end. It was called off very suddenly, to the | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
great annoyance and anger of a lot of people in Glasgow, particularly | :02:19. | :02:20. | |
those who had actually only been called out that they face the fact | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
they were called out and the whole strike had been called off. I think | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
the trade union Congress absolutely lost a of support. They lost 1.5 | :02:30. | :02:38. | |
million members partly as a result of how they had given up so quickly. | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
The impact of the general strike was remarkable. Actually, far more | :02:44. | :02:52. | |
workers came out on strike from a sense of shared class loyalty to the | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
miners, groups of workers in a variety of money factoring | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
industries, including in Glasgow, in Scotland, the textile industry, | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
there were many women workers as well as male workers involved in the | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
stoppage, so, actually, the scale of the stoppage surprise not only the | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
30s, the government of the day, the Conservative government of the day, | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
but surprise the TUC itself. People in the TUC got very, very cold feet | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
very quickly and they were scared by allegations coming from the | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
government that the TUC was attempting to subvert the rotation | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
constitution, the British democratic system. These images come from an | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
album of photographs recently acquired by an adult education | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Centre in London. They show miners in the Fife coalfield organising, | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
marching, and protesting in May and through the summer of 1926, as they | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
remained locked out of the pits. For six months, miners lived, struggled | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
without income, without work. The level of poverty, the level of... | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
Frankly, the level of class conflict that existed in 1926 was something | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
quite striking in Scotland. Shared with other parts of the coalfields | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
in South Wales, for example, and the north-east of England. But that was | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
a special characteristic of the conflict in Scotland. Mr Speaker, | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
this stinks. Has the government water down its new trade union Bill? | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
This shows this government really is water down its new trade union Bill? | :04:29. | :04:30. | |
at the rotten heart of the European water down its new trade union Bill? | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
Union. The accusation is that David Cameron did it to win support in the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
European referendum. So, perhaps some of the issues raised in 1926 | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
European referendum. So, perhaps are still relevant today. | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
I'm joined by two guests this morning, the Observer columnist | :04:46. | :04:47. | |
Kevin McKenna and Magnus Gardham, who is the political | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
I mean, look, during the lifetime of the next parliament, there will be | :04:51. | :05:04. | |
enormous tax powers devolved to Scotland. This should have been a | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
very exciting election campaign because of that. And it has been | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
pretty dull, to be honest. I think the campaign two have been | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
lacklustre. It has been interesting because of the tax debate we've had | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
but perhaps what has been most interesting is the extent to which | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
it has shown the constitutional question still dominate Scottish | :05:30. | :05:30. | |
politics. Is that the problem, that compared | :05:31. | :05:38. | |
to we went independence, messing around with tax rates just doesn't | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
quite do it for people? I don't know if that is a problem. I think this | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
is certainly what is happening. On paper, labour, the Liberal Democrats | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
have a tax policy which you would think appealed to SNP voters more | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
than the SNP's tax plan. Have SNP voters switched to Labour and the | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
Lib Dems? No, they haven't. I think is pretty clear that the | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
constitution is a big factor and also the figure of Nicola Sturgeon, | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
whose appeal transcends the political dividing line. Judging by | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
your column in the Observer this morning, you haven't managed to get | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
yourself very excited either, have you? The participants in the | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
selection of fighting against the recent history of last year's | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
Westminster election and the referendum on independence six | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
months, eight months prior to that. In both of those elections or polls, | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
there was a sense of history being made and a sense that people were | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
participating in the great, important days and they were lucky | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
that they were around to participate in Fareham. That hasn't really | :06:54. | :07:00. | |
happened here. It has been reduced, the main issue has been tax and | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
whether it is 1p or whether or not, whether the SNP risk-sharing all | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
their wares for the next few years because quite frankly, they don't | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
need to. The only historical axe back to this election is that I | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
cannot remember any time when the UK, when not only is the outcome | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
seemingly assured but also an overall majority, perhaps the second | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
of Tony Blair's wins in the UK, that is the only thing that comes close. | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
So you think the excitement is gone because there is not that sense of | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
will show that because you have 35% will show that because you have 35% | :07:40. | :07:45. | |
-- had 85% turnout at the referendum. You had 71% at | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Westminster. I think we would be struggling to get around 60% at this | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
one. It just doesn't carry the same romance and drama. It's not to say | :07:59. | :08:00. | |
it is not important because the FS it is not important because the FS | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
-- if the SNP do win this, it means they are set fair for government... | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
What has happened? The idea of lots of people becoming involved in | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
politics for the first time, you bought into the excitement of the | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
referendum campaign, the idea of a new movement and the rest of it. Do | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
you think that has dissipated largely? I am not sure it has | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
dissipated. What it has is reinforced the hegemony of the SNP. | :08:27. | :08:33. | |
We are seeing the prevailing narrative in the selection is still | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
the constitutional issue that we had more than 18 months ago. That has | :08:39. | :08:45. | |
led to a bedrock of 45% to 47% of the SNP vote. That would dominate | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
home election. I happen to disagree with Nicola Sturgeon when she says | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
we are looking for five successive polls of 50% or more. I think going | :08:56. | :08:59. | |
into a second referendum, whether it be in three or five years' time, | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
with 45%, 47% still sticking with pro-independence, that is still 15 | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
points better off than when the yes campaign went in to bat a year and a | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
half before the referendum. OK. You think... I see what you mean. You | :09:17. | :09:24. | |
think they could put on another 10%. They are guaranteed 45% or 47%, if | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
the next five polls showed what Professor Curtis was saying, then | :09:30. | :09:39. | |
they are aiming for another 5%, 6%. You had a theory, didn't you, about | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
shy Labour voters. You've been putting it up. They are very, very, | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
very shy indeed. Do you think they might still be there? The poll today | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
in the Sunday Times suggests they might be starting to emerge and | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
in the Sunday Times suggests they certainly, the point that Professor | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
Curtis was making about a Tory victory over Labour depends more | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
actually on how low Labour sinks than it does how well the Tories | :10:08. | :10:12. | |
perform. The Tories themselves understand that which is why they | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
have talked about overtaking Labour but they've not ever been and | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
confident that they are going to be able to do it. Yeah, the polls are | :10:25. | :10:33. | |
giving Labour a bit... This phenomenon was a new one, wasn't it? | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
It was the idea... It's used to be with the Tories, that people didn't | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
like to tell pollsters that actually they were going to vote | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
Conservative. You find the same thing in Scotland with Labour. Yeah. | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
Friends in the SNP and the Tories both told me that when they are | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
knocking on doors, people will both told me that when they are | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
volunteer a view on the SNP and they will say yes, we like them or no, we | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
don't like the SNP but they weren't volunteering the fact that they were | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
Labour. It raises a big question about whether the Labour vote is | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
there, whether it is going to turn out and all of these things. It | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
makes it very, very difficult to predict, actually, how Labour and | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
the Conservatives are going to do on Thursday in relation to each other. | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
I think I am right in saying, you would have liked to have seen the | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
SNP being a bit more radical in its programme for the next few years but | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
I presume they would say, first of all, we've got to worry about | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
voters, a huge number of voters who might not like that radical | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
programme and also we don't have to because we are going to win anyway. | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
Yeah, that is what I would like the SNP to deliver more on, its | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
narrative since 2007. I suspect that they would say, well, look, we are | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the dominant party, we want to first of all ensure that we are returned | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
as a party of government and that we maintain our overall majority. To do | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
that, we have to continue our appeal maintain our overall majority. To do | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
to a wide spectrum of voters, including some who maybe don't want | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
to vote for independence. How long do you think that can last? Do you | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
think they does come a point where perhaps people say, in the Glasgow | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
area, where many used to be Labour, who voted SNP because they thought | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
in a way independence became a proxy about something more radical | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
happening van has happened up until now, do you think at any point they | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
get fed up and say, what the SNP is proposing isn't many more radical? | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
By the end of the next session of Hollywood, the SNP, if they win, | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
will have been in power for 13 years. One of the main criticisms of | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
the Tony Blair government was, at the outset in 1997, that was seen as | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
a three term government and many on the left, not radical left, said | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
this is great, this is more than enough time, there is more than | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
enough opportunity for us not just to have a soft left agenda but to | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
reverse things like Margaret Thatcher's anti-trade union laws and | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
impose stricter laws on the financial businesses. People on the | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
left here, including those who voted for the SNP and voted yes, will say | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
after 13 years, who will be looking for something a little bit more | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
radical, a little bit more reforming that goes beyond little packages of | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
many here for nurses or GPs or primary care. I will have to cut you | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
off because we've completely run out of time. 20 both very much indeed. | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
I'll be back at the same time next week. | :13:54. | :13:58. |