01/05/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland


01/05/2016

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Jeremy Corbyn struggles to get a grip on the turmoil inside his

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party after Ken Livingstone's comments on Hitler and Zionism.

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But will the Labour leader's latest anti-Semitism review draw

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Despite demands he should be booted out, Mr Livingstone insists he'll

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fight to stay in the party, and refuses to apologise for saying

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We'll discuss the implications for Labour and its leader.

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The row comes just days before Thursday's elections across the UK.

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We'll hear from Lib Dem leader Tim Farron and the Conservative's

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Four days to go until the voters go to the polls. What can the parties

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do at this late stage of the campaign to win you over?

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why he should be London now. -- mayor.

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And with me for the duration - Nick Watt, Janan Ganesh

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They'll all be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

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This time last week Jeremy Corbyn was in a pretty good place.

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He'd put in a decent performance at PMQs,

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the Tories were ripping themselves apart over the EU referendum

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and any Labour rows seemed small beer in comparison.

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But that was before the Guido Fawkes political blog uncovered

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anti-Semitic tweets from a novice Labour backbencher called Naz Shah -

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made before she was an MP - and Ken Livingstone called Hitler

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in her aid - perhaps not the most helpful of modern

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political interventions - leading to his suspension,

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along with Ms Shah's from the party and calls for him to be

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So what might have been no more than a little local difficulty has

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become the biggest crisis in Mr Corbyn's leadership.

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Here's Ellie with a reminder of how the story unfolded.

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I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset

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and hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that.

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Naz Shah was apologising for this - a Facebook post that suggested

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She'd shared it and other offensive comments two years ago.

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On Tuesday afternoon she resigned as Parliamentary Private Secretary

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to the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

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The next day a fellow shadow frontbencher was calling

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There has to be a suspension and an investigation when something

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like this occurs, because it is so serious and it does have such

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a knock on effect on people outside of parliament, in the real world.

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Moments later, the Prime Minister waded in.

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The fact that, frankly, we have a Labour Member

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of Parliament, with the Labour Whip, who made remarks about

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the transportation of people from Israel to America and talked

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about "a solution", and is still in receipt of the Labour whip

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After hours of speculation, Naz Shah, who was only elected

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last year, was suspended from the Labour Party

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But if the Labour leadership had hoped it would draw

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a line under the issue, they were sorely disappointed,

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because the next day, this happened...

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You didn't find that to be anti-Semitic?

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You have to remember, when Hitler won his election

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in 1932 his policy then was Jews should be moved to Israel.

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He was supporting Zionism, before he went mad and ended up

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You Nazi apologist, you Nazi apologisist.

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Rewriting history, rewriting history!

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Go back and check what Hitler did, go back and check what Hitler did.

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There was a book called Mein Kampf, you obviously haven't heard of it.

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Ken Livingstone was on the phone to another radio station

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when he got interrupted by the Labour MP John Mann.

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Watched by most of the country's media, they took it inside

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and continued their interesting difference of opinion

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You dare say, you dare say Hitler supported Zionism.

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I think you've lost it, Mr Livingstone.

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It's a deliberate, calculated attempt to cause problems,

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You certainly shouldn't be an Labour's National Executive.

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I've not said Hitler was a Zionist, what I said was his policy in '32

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was to deport Germany's Jews to Israel.

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John Mann was called to the Chief Whip's office for that

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and told he shouldn't have big rows on the telly.

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Other MPs voiced their opinion in Parliament instead.

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Anti-Semitism is wrong, full stop, end of story.

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I am sick and tired of people trying to explain it away -

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and yes - I'm talking to you, Ken Livingstone.

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Less than an hour later Ken Livingstone was suspended

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from the Labour Party, and chased by the media.

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Do you want to apologise for causing any offence?

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While Ken was indisposed, Jeremy Corbyn was trying not to let

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the issue occupy his local election campaigning, even if he had been

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forced to suspend one of his closest allies.

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It's not a crisis, there is no crisis.

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Where there is any racism in the party, it will be dealt with,

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I have been an anti-racist campaigner all my life.

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I suspect that much of this criticism, that you're saying

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about a crisis in the party, actually comes from those

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who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party at local level.

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But it has been a damaging week for Labour, whose leadership

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promised to get a grip on anti-Semitism.

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Ken Livingstone insisted he had nothing more to say.

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I've got to do the washing now, doing some work on the pond,

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Well, Ken Livingstone didn't stay quiet for long.

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In fact yesterday morning he appeared on the London radio

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After the broadcast, he had this to say to

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If people have been offended, I'm really sorry about that.

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But they're not offended because I said the truth,

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exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister of Israel said

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48 hours earlier, they've been offended by the scrutiny

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of embittered old Blairite MPs stirring up all these

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accusations of anti-Semitism, when I said on the programme 80

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Labour Party Jewish members have a letter in the Guardian

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today saying they've never experienced anti-Semitism.

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We've had a handful of people who have said things

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They have been suspended or expelled immediately by Jeremy.

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It is filled with people campaigning against racism and anti-Semitism.

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Speaking on BBC One earlier this morning,

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the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Mark Regev,

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said a line has been crossed in the anti-semitism row

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Of course people have the right to criticise the government of Israel -

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If you follow the very vigorous public debates

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we have in my country, you'll know that every

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government position is open to debate in the parliament,

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in the press, in a very, very robust civil society.

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It's not about criticising Israel, it's about demonising

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The comments we've heard over the last two or three weeks

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that were made public, it has nothing to do

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with criticising this or that particular Israeli policy -

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it's demonising and a vilification of my country, and its

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But Jeremy Corbyn's close ally Diane Abbott told Andrew Marr

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that Labour doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism.

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The reality is that there have been 12 for incidents in the period

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when Jeremy's leader, and some of those remarks predate

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200,000 people have joined the party.

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What is your message to him now, should he apologise properly?

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Have you ever known Ken apologise for anything?

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No, but this might be the time to start!

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Ken's remarks were extremely offensive.

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He was suspended within hours, there's going to be an investigation

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and the party will decide what happens to Ken.

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We did ask the Labour Party for an interview with someone

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from the Shadow Cabinet, but no one was available.

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We're joined now from Exeter by the former Labour culture

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Welcome to the programme. In your view how big a problem does Labour

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have with anti-Semitism? Well, in a week where the Conservatives are

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doing terrible damage to our education system, the National

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Health Service and are themselves apart on Europe, I would not want to

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be on your programme on Sunday talking about this. In a way I agree

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with Diane Abbott, I don't think we have a massive problem but the way

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we have mishandled this whole crisis, which has been going on for

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weeks, although Ken Livingstone has done his best to make it worse, the

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way we have handled the crisis has made it seem worse than it is. What

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do you make of Ken Livingstone's claim this is just basically a group

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of embittered old Blairite MPs trying to undermine the new order?

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I've seen you would include you in that.

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One of the first people to call for Ken Livingstone to leave the party

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was John Lassman, the head of Momentum, on the hard left. I think

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the popular left-wing commentator Owen Jones was also very quick to

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call for Ken Livingstone's resignation so to try to describe

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this as some Blairite... , it looks more like some left on left battle.

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I am increasingly of the view Ken Livingstone is a Conservative Party

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spy who has been planted in the Labour Party and has now emerged to

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do as much damage as he possibly can to the Labour Party. That is

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certainly the view of my loyal Labour Party members and activists

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and voters who came up to me asking what was going on. They were

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outraged by his comments and defeat comes back into the party, they

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won't vote for the party. Jeremy has finally gripped it this week with

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the inquiry but we have got to act quickly and decisively. Has Jeremy

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Corbyn let it drag on? There have been very sensible voices across the

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political spectrum in the Labour Party who, for several weeks if not

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months, have been raising concerns about this and calling for quite

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simple and sensible solutions to wait. I think if they had been

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listened to earlier, we could have nipped this problem in the bud. I

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hope it has now been gripped but it will be judged on what we do.

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Parties are judged on what they do, not what they say. The leadership

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have said all the right things, we now need to see action. What is the

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difference between Ken Livingstone's attitude to Israel and the Jews and

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Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to Israel and the Jews? I'm not quite sure I'm

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qualified to comment on either of their attitudes to Israel and the

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Jews. All I know is someone who has been a very strong friend of

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Palestine, a supporter of the two state solution, the Labour Party has

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a proud tradition of believing and supporting Israel as a state with

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the right to exist but I think there is a problem on parts of the left.

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They don't seem to recognise where criticism... Legitimate criticism

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crosses over to hatred for Israel and anti-Semitism. The Labour Party

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supports absolutely Israel's right to exist. We always have and I hope

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we always will. We also support a Palestinian state and if we allow

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ourselves to be diverted from that sensible position which is held by

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all progressives all over the world, that will be a very dangerous path

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all progressives all over the world, in my view. Are you clear in your

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mind that Ken Livingstone and Jeremy Corbyn support Israel's right to

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exist? I cannot speak for them, I can just speak for myself. I am not

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inside their brains and I think anybody who tried to get inside Ken

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Livingstone's brain would find that a very challenging process. So you

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are not sure your leaders support Israel's right to exist? The Labour

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Party and Jeremy Corbyn I am sure 100% support Israel's right to

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exist, but these are questions the leader can speak for on behalf of

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himself. The chance would be a nice thing but we are grateful to speak

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to you. In your view, I know there is due process to follow, should Ken

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Livingstone be rejected from the Labour Party? Countless Labour Party

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members and supporters came up to me on the streets of Exeter yesterday

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where we are fighting very important and tough local council elections on

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Thursday to say that if he came back, they wouldn't vote for us. If

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he was brought back, what would be the reaction amongst your

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colleagues? I think they would be dismayed. There is genuine anger

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about the damage this has done at a time when the Conservatives should

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be on the ropes. We should be 20% ahead in the opinion polls, we are

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behind, facing very difficult local elections. We are not being an

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effective opposition because the talk is all about turmoil in Labour.

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Labour people are furious about that, they want the leadership to

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get a grip, they want to be an effective opposition and they want

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to make sure we win the next election and the elections across

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the UK and in London. Thanks for joining us. Apologies for the

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quality of the sound. Nick Watt, how much is this being used by those

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opposed to Jeremy Corbyn to undermine his leadership? Yes,

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certainly the majority of the PLP don't support his leadership. A

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significant number of them would like to get him out, hope to do so

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after the European referendum. That had appeared to go away and now we

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have this crisis so maybe it will come back but I think those people

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who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn are not rubbing their hands and

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saying doesn't this make him look awful. They are, as most people in

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the Labour Party are, horrified by what this makes the Labour Party

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look like to the electorate as a whole and would like to deal with

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it. If you have two senior figures running after each other on

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stairways, whatever the cause, that looks dreadful for voters but then

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the issue you are talking about is supremely sensitive issue of

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anti-Semitism and the people I talk to who want to get rid of Jeremy

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Corbyn just hate what is going and feel that it is very dangerous and

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sensitive territory for the Labour Party. Where does it go from here?

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It depends whether the party decides this is just an embarrassment that

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can be got over. This is when Jeremy Corbyn's leadership stopped being

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funny, it is serious and it is not an accident or the mistake of

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judgment that meant he didn't get rid of Ken Livingstone immediately.

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They are very old allies, they go back a long way and you have to

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understand that this juncture of reality, the perception is so

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confused. I started my life on the Trotskyist left. I knew people, in

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fact I was in Hornsea when Jeremy Corbyn was on the council there.

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These people socialise with each other, marry each other, they never

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go outside of their very closed self referring political activist circle.

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So that picture that Jeremy Corbyn's first white painted of him standing

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over a photocopier eating baked beans, we all knew that person in

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the 1970s. These people live within their closed political frame of

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reference, that's why there was this horrendous misunderstanding of the

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significance of what Ken Livingstone had done and said. When they called

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John Mann in, they insisted the whip's office called him in to be

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disciplined as if there was some kind of moral equivalence between

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what Ken Livingstone had said and what John Mann had said in

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reprimanding him, that is another reflection of how out of touch they

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are. People will wonder why the Labour Party, which has a long

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historic track record of fighting racism, introduced legislation going

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way back to the 1960s on something like this, why does it now have to

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have an investigation into racism and a code of conduct on racism?

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Because they have at the very least turned a blind eye to this kind of

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behaviour, I would imagine for about 30 years now. I'm only surprised

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that other people are surprised by this incident. In the 1980s people

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like Ken Livingstone were giving views not just on Zionism but on the

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foreign policy issues that were strident to say the least. When

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Frank Dobson was installed rather than Ken Livingstone as London

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mayoral candidate, a huge part of the soft left took Ken's side, now

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we have this disproportionate punishment of John Mann versus Ken.

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For a pattern of my lifetime there is an indulgence towards this

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behaviour and the only surprised that it has taken this amount of

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time for it to manifest in a crystal clear crisis which I imagine makes

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the average swing voter look upon Labour as something unpalatable.

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Will it have an effect on Thursday's elections? Sadiq Khan is nervous it

:19:09.:19:15.

will have an effect on him as the candidate for London mayor. He

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nominated Jeremy Corbyn but has done a good job of distancing himself

:19:20.:19:24.

from him. And he was one of the first to criticise him. He did it

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immediately. He is nervous but it is probably too late to affect the

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campaign. OK. After their disastrous results

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in last year's General Election, the Liberal Democrats are hoping

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for some better luck this week. Their leader, Tim Farron,

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says the local elections are utterly critical for the party's "survival,

:19:42.:19:44.

revival and rebirth", as they go in defending just over

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300 seats in England. But has Mr Farron's leadership over

:19:47.:19:48.

the past year made any difference The last general election left

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the party in a sorry state, going from 57 MPs down

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to a measly eight. The result caused former leader

:19:58.:20:01.

Nick Clegg to resign the very next day, triggering

:20:02.:20:03.

a party leadership election. Two candidates went head-to-head -

:20:04.:20:07.

the then Party President Tim Farron and former Care Minister Norman

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Lamb. I am up for this, you are up

:20:12.:20:17.

for this, I am optimistic but it will take hard work

:20:18.:20:26.

and bloody mindedness. Over the last year, it's been

:20:27.:20:30.

an uphill struggle for Mr Farron, having to prove to the political

:20:31.:20:33.

classes that, even with eight MPs, his party is still a force

:20:34.:20:36.

to be reckoned with. Although the Lib Dems successfully

:20:37.:20:38.

used their hundred-odd peers to defeat the Government

:20:39.:20:41.

in the Lords over tax credits, trade union reform and child

:20:42.:20:51.

refugees, Lord Rennard's resignation

:20:52.:20:54.

from the party executive and the legal action

:20:55.:20:56.

over the election of MP And next week, Mr Farron

:20:57.:21:04.

will once again be put Both the big parties are polling

:21:05.:21:18.

badly, it couldn't be a better time for a Lib Dem could -- come back,

:21:19.:21:28.

could there? You have summed it up very nicely. The general election

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result last May was obviously devastating, and I am going to argue

:21:38.:21:40.

it was devastating for the country as it was for the Liberal Democrats.

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You think of these issues going on at the moment, the attack on junior

:21:46.:21:50.

doctors, the Balkanisation, even potential privatisation of our

:21:51.:21:54.

school system across the UK, the heartless approach to orphaned

:21:55.:21:58.

refugees in Europe, and yet we are talking about divisions within the

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Labour Party. They are indeed the most ineffective official opposition

:22:03.:22:05.

probably in British political history. What would come back look

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like? It would look like a 50% increase in our membership and

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gaining more council by-election seats and more votes in those

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by-elections than any other party, which incidentally is exactly what

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is happening. There is a real sense we are finding people on the

:22:27.:22:30.

doorsteps being very ready to listen to our message. We have got to fight

:22:31.:22:34.

for attention and to get onto the stage at all. The results last May

:22:35.:22:40.

but us in that position but I am an optimistic kind of person. We have

:22:41.:22:53.

an enormous challenge on our plate, we have a Tory government which is

:22:54.:22:55.

very arrogant, taking for granted the fact they are in office, being

:22:56.:22:58.

all the more arrogance because their official opposition is shambolic,

:22:59.:23:00.

and the desperate need for the good of Britain to be a Liberal Democrat

:23:01.:23:06.

revival. Given that you are doing so well in local government

:23:07.:23:09.

by-elections, you must hope to do much better on Thursday than the 331

:23:10.:23:14.

English councillors you currently have? I think I would be in

:23:15.:23:21.

dangerous territory if I start giving you figures but I am

:23:22.:23:24.

increasingly confident we will do much better than we did last May.

:23:25.:23:29.

The sense I am getting on the doorstep around the country is

:23:30.:23:33.

positive, people listening. Lots of people who are progressive,

:23:34.:23:37.

centre-left voters who feel utterly disappointed with the Labour Party

:23:38.:23:42.

as a movement at the moment. And many people switched off by the

:23:43.:23:46.

Conservatives, one example of that was a councillor in Yeovil who is a

:23:47.:23:50.

case worker for the Conservative MP there who defected to the Liberal

:23:51.:23:54.

Democrats, actually having to give up her job in the process because

:23:55.:23:58.

she realised that what the Tories were offering last May is not what

:23:59.:24:07.

they are delivering. We have started down the road of serious unfairness,

:24:08.:24:12.

taking money away from people with disability, people dependent on the

:24:13.:24:16.

NHS and care services, and behaving in an inhuman way towards the child

:24:17.:24:25.

refugees. Will you add to your tally of council seats? I hope so. I hope

:24:26.:24:32.

so and I couldn't tell you either way. You have been telling me how

:24:33.:24:38.

good you are doing in the local government by-elections, why

:24:39.:24:40.

wouldn't you do just as well on Thursday? I am telling you things

:24:41.:24:46.

that have happened, I'm not capable of telling you things that will

:24:47.:24:51.

happen. Let me come onto your key message. Your key message for the

:24:52.:24:57.

local elections is you are pledging to fight unnecessary cuts to

:24:58.:25:02.

university services, how credible is that when you spent five years in

:25:03.:25:07.

power with the Tories presiding over these cuts?

:25:08.:25:11.

We spent five years writing the economy and protecting front-line

:25:12.:25:17.

services from those cuts. What happened is over five years we help

:25:18.:25:20.

to get the country in a position where the books were all but

:25:21.:25:23.

balanced. We got to a crossroads where we make a decision as a

:25:24.:25:27.

country, do we carry on cutting or is this the time we say, we have

:25:28.:25:31.

stabilise the financial situation, now it is the time to go easy and to

:25:32.:25:36.

put money into front-line services? You will see at this point in time

:25:37.:25:39.

we have a Conservative government that has chosen to give away tax

:25:40.:25:47.

cuts to the wealthy at a time it is passing on cuts through local

:25:48.:25:51.

government to social services, to schools, highways and so on. We say

:25:52.:25:55.

politics is about choosing. At this point, having got the economy from

:25:56.:26:01.

the brink, this is the point of government, and if the Liberal

:26:02.:26:03.

Democrats are in government, we would be choosing not to give tax

:26:04.:26:08.

cuts to the wealthy but supporting public services such as those run by

:26:09.:26:12.

local authorities. When you were in power, in government, you close to

:26:13.:26:19.

350 libraries, closed 350 youth centres and around 600 sure start

:26:20.:26:24.

centres. Now you are posed as the anti-cuts party, no one will believe

:26:25.:26:30.

you? When we were in government we prevented the Conservatives making

:26:31.:26:34.

far greater cuts. One of the great sadness is for me, or an irony is it

:26:35.:26:40.

has taken the last 12 months of seeing what the Conservatives do

:26:41.:26:43.

without us to see what a difference we made. They managed to do that

:26:44.:26:51.

with you in power. And now you are trying to tell the voters who are

:26:52.:26:55.

against all these cuts, cuts you presided over in government. I am

:26:56.:27:02.

not Jeremy Corbyn, I won't come onto this programme and say you never

:27:03.:27:05.

need to make tough decisions in government. We were very clear over

:27:06.:27:08.

those five years we were acting in the national interest to balance

:27:09.:27:12.

those books. Whether you blame Labour or the

:27:13.:27:20.

banks, the mess was there. We responded responsibly. But one of

:27:21.:27:25.

the issues we should be talking more about this week but sadly Labour's

:27:26.:27:30.

internal divisions has taken it off the front pages is the junior

:27:31.:27:34.

doctors scandal. Remember, just over a year ago it was my colleague

:27:35.:27:37.

Norman Lamb who prevented that contract being written in the first

:27:38.:27:41.

place. It was only the Conservatives getting into power on their own

:27:42.:27:45.

without us which meant they pushed forward on that cart to our national

:27:46.:27:50.

health service. If forcing of schools to turn into academies,

:27:51.:27:54.

something we blocked. Further cuts to the police, we blocked, the

:27:55.:27:57.

Conservatives are now putting in place. We were the party that

:27:58.:28:01.

believed we should live within our means, in our ability to fund public

:28:02.:28:06.

services on the basis of how wealthy the country is. Over five tough

:28:07.:28:09.

years the Liberal Democrats helped balance the books and get us out of

:28:10.:28:15.

the financial crisis. We say you don't then make more cuts you don't

:28:16.:28:20.

need to. You didn't lose the books, Mr Farron. You left behind a deficit

:28:21.:28:28.

of about ?80 billion. Let me just finally ask you this, you have five

:28:29.:28:33.

members in Holyrood, five in the cabinet is amply, two in the London

:28:34.:28:42.

assembly. Of the seats up for grabs, three and 31 councillors. If you

:28:43.:28:45.

don't improve in at least a couple of these areas, does your leadership

:28:46.:28:51.

come under pressure, doesn't have consequences for you? -- 331

:28:52.:28:55.

councillors. You set out the case clearly at the beginning of this

:28:56.:28:58.

interview, in the last couple of months we have been coming back from

:28:59.:29:02.

a devastating result for us. I don't expect it to be an overnight

:29:03.:29:07.

success, but my sense is as I have been knocking on doors is you find a

:29:08.:29:11.

warming towards a Liberal Democrat message. A sense if you vote Liberal

:29:12.:29:16.

Democrat, makes a difference. That you have people working on the

:29:17.:29:20.

ground in your local community to get things done. So you will do

:29:21.:29:24.

better? I just want to know if you will do better or not? I am no more

:29:25.:29:29.

others since sales and new, but I'm optimistic about how we will do this

:29:30.:29:33.

week. It feels more positive than a year ago. With a shocking Tory

:29:34.:29:39.

government, arrogant as it is, and a Labour opposition so shambolic, this

:29:40.:29:43.

is a moment where the Liberal Democrats need to recover and I'm

:29:44.:29:47.

hopeful this week we will. Tim Farron, thank you for your time.

:29:48.:29:50.

Well that's the Liberal Democrats, what about the Conservatives?

:29:51.:29:52.

Their local election campaign has been relatively low key

:29:53.:29:54.

these last few weeks, with the small matter of an EU

:29:55.:29:57.

referendum campaign taking up most of their time.

:29:58.:29:59.

You could say with Labour in the spotlight the pressure

:30:00.:30:02.

is off the Conservatives in the English local elections.

:30:03.:30:04.

These set of seats were last up for grabs in 2012,

:30:05.:30:07.

when George Osborne's so-called 'omnishambles budget' had hit

:30:08.:30:09.

the headlines and the Tories slumped to winning only 884 seats,

:30:10.:30:13.

However, Ukip are targeting Conservative seats and significant

:30:14.:30:21.

losses to Mr Farage's party could be a sign the referendum campaign isn't

:30:22.:30:24.

What's more, there's been a lot of friendly fire

:30:25.:30:31.

in the last few months, with councillors across the country

:30:32.:30:34.

criticising government policy on a range of issues,

:30:35.:30:36.

including turning all schools into academies, more directly

:30:37.:30:37.

elected mayors and reductions in the grants from

:30:38.:30:39.

It is not just the EU that the Conservative Party

:30:40.:30:47.

And the Conservative's Local Government Minister Brandon Lewis

:30:48.:30:53.

joins me now from Chelmsford in Essex.

:30:54.:30:57.

Let me go straight to this business of forced academies in England. The

:30:58.:31:09.

Tory Cabinet member for Oxfordshire County Council says she will have to

:31:10.:31:14.

suck it up, but she thinks you have gone bonkers. Why have you gone

:31:15.:31:19.

bonkers? We haven't. I have to say, from my own experience, if I look at

:31:20.:31:23.

what I have seen in East Anglia and Great Yarmouth, the academies have

:31:24.:31:30.

reformed education. It is a good step forward, about making those

:31:31.:31:34.

schools autonomous, giving them independence. I understand

:31:35.:31:37.

councillors who have been involved in education want to continue to be

:31:38.:31:40.

involved in education. We have to do what is right for the pupils to get

:31:41.:31:44.

that improvement in educational standards. She is not against

:31:45.:31:48.

academies but against you forcing every schools to be academies.

:31:49.:31:52.

Plenty others share her concerns. Why don't you listen to your own

:31:53.:31:58.

people? We are listening to people. What we are saying is... You have to

:31:59.:32:04.

have a two way conversation. Academies have the ability to

:32:05.:32:09.

improve education. I have seen this first hand myself, with vast

:32:10.:32:12.

improvement in the offer of education for pupils. We have to put

:32:13.:32:15.

the pupils first. This is about making sure young people today are

:32:16.:32:19.

getting the best education, the best life chances to move forward and

:32:20.:32:26.

benefit from economics, growth and jobs for security. This is about

:32:27.:32:29.

making sure we do what is right for the pupils and to make sure they are

:32:30.:32:34.

getting the best education. We believe by putting schools in direct

:32:35.:32:37.

control of their destiny is the best way to give pupils the best

:32:38.:32:43.

opportunity. Whom are academies responsible accountable? I didn't

:32:44.:32:48.

hear that. Whom are academies accountable to? They have shown

:32:49.:32:55.

across the country having that independence, the knowledge of the

:32:56.:32:58.

teachers, the headteachers who run those schools and know what is best

:32:59.:33:02.

in that area... Who are they accountable to? It is important they

:33:03.:33:11.

have the opportunity... I asked, to whom are they accountable? Ofsted

:33:12.:33:15.

will judge schools and Ofsted goes in and looks at schools and gives a

:33:16.:33:19.

review of what the school's position is and if it needs to improve,

:33:20.:33:23.

Ofsted is very clear. It is transparent, there is no secret and

:33:24.:33:27.

is well covered in the press local and national when schools have a

:33:28.:33:35.

challenge. No local accountability? I have never seen the school that

:33:36.:33:41.

has had a bad Ofsted report be able to keep it secret. It is a public

:33:42.:33:45.

thing and therefore there is a clear responsibility for the people in

:33:46.:33:48.

that school to move things forward, improve things. And looking at what

:33:49.:33:53.

is right for the pupils. You don't want now to have parent governors,

:33:54.:33:57.

so even if you get a bad Ofsted report, how do the parents hold that

:33:58.:34:01.

school accountable if under the white paper you propose they

:34:02.:34:07.

shouldn't be parent governors? Actually there can be parent

:34:08.:34:10.

governors. What it says is there doesn't have to be. There can be

:34:11.:34:14.

parent governors. I have seen academies in my own constituency and

:34:15.:34:18.

elsewhere where parent governors are important. Key to this is making

:34:19.:34:21.

sure the school itself, with the headteachers and the teachers

:34:22.:34:27.

themselves, who know what is best to move education board, have the

:34:28.:34:30.

opportunity to do that. This is about looking what is right and best

:34:31.:34:34.

for pupils, to get the best possible education, the best start in life.

:34:35.:34:38.

Let's look at local government spending now. You have slashed

:34:39.:34:42.

grants to local government over the years. Paul Carter, Conservative

:34:43.:34:47.

leader of Kent Council, he says the tank is now an empty and we really

:34:48.:34:53.

are, to use another analogy, scraping the barrel. Councils, even

:34:54.:34:58.

Tory councillors are saying under your government they are now

:34:59.:35:05.

scraping the barrel. Local government accounts for about 25% of

:35:06.:35:08.

all public expenditure. We have never been shy about being clear it

:35:09.:35:12.

has to play its part in dealing with debt and deficit. Over this

:35:13.:35:15.

parliament we will see local government in a very strong

:35:16.:35:19.

position. What local government can do and what it is doing when you

:35:20.:35:24.

look Oxfordshire, the Midlands, the North, East Anglia sharks, is making

:35:25.:35:30.

sure they are efficient. -- East Anglia. It is under pound cheaper

:35:31.:35:37.

than Liberal Democrat equivalents, showing really good efficiencies to

:35:38.:35:41.

deliver good quality front line services. At the same time. Paul is

:35:42.:35:48.

an excellent leader, but Lemi -- let me be clear, local government

:35:49.:35:55.

surpluses has gone up from 13 to ?22 billion. That is a testament to the

:35:56.:35:59.

efficiencies local governments have shown. It shows there is capacity to

:36:00.:36:04.

go further and also bearing in mind the grant from central government is

:36:05.:36:08.

a small part of the finance for local government. It comes from as a

:36:09.:36:15.

tax, rates and new home tax. Why does he he now Xavi cuts would have

:36:16.:36:19.

a real impact, are having a real impact on people and communities? It

:36:20.:36:28.

is a Conservative saying this? We have to live within our means and

:36:29.:36:34.

make those difficult decisions. They deliver the best decisions to do

:36:35.:36:38.

that. We have seen those efficiencies. Councils are ?80 a

:36:39.:36:42.

that. We have seen those year cheaper than the Labour

:36:43.:36:46.

equivalent. Or local authorities, particularly the district councils,

:36:47.:36:49.

though smaller local councils, as Great Yarmouth is doing, should see

:36:50.:36:53.

how they can share chief executives to make sure the efficiencies can

:36:54.:37:00.

deliver good front line services, dozens of councils across the

:37:01.:37:05.

country from Oxfordshire through to Staffordshire, East Anglia and the

:37:06.:37:08.

Midlands are doing this. We can see more of that. There is more

:37:09.:37:11.

opportunity for that. It doesn't just a liver efficiencies by better

:37:12.:37:15.

front line services. When you have been making these funding cuts, why

:37:16.:37:20.

have they disproportionately fallen on Labour areas, which tend to be

:37:21.:37:25.

poorer, and not Tory areas which tend to be richer? Why have you hit

:37:26.:37:28.

the poorer parts of this country with your cuts? With the best of

:37:29.:37:34.

respect, I think the framing of that is slightly misleading. Let's get to

:37:35.:37:37.

the core of what's going on. One of the worst hit councils in the

:37:38.:37:41.

country has been my own in Great Yarmouth. The reason for that goes

:37:42.:37:45.

back historically, before they left power Labour cut the fund that hit

:37:46.:37:49.

councils with the poorest background. And those are the same

:37:50.:37:53.

authorities that have the highest spending power. They had more to

:37:54.:38:00.

spend per household than the equivalent Conservative verities.

:38:01.:38:05.

More needs. Labour led councils like Liverpool, even if they just

:38:06.:38:08.

collected the council tax, it would be ?500 per house better off

:38:09.:38:13.

roughly. We need to make sure these efficiencies are there. The average

:38:14.:38:19.

cup per household in the Tory area is calculated to be ?68 per person

:38:20.:38:24.

per household by the end of this parliament. The Labour councils per

:38:25.:38:30.

household is ?340. You are picking on the poorer parts this country. We

:38:31.:38:36.

also have to bear in mind the spending power in the first places

:38:37.:38:41.

much higher. Because they had more than they needed to spend on. That

:38:42.:38:45.

is why their spending power can be up to ?1500 more in some places than

:38:46.:38:49.

the equivalent smaller district area. They still do have higher

:38:50.:38:54.

spending power per household. And that is why extra money, an extra

:38:55.:38:58.

?300 million was put in for those transitional works, because as we

:38:59.:39:02.

get to the end of this parliament, the change we made to put more money

:39:03.:39:06.

in with a focus on social care, those authorities start to get more

:39:07.:39:10.

money coming through again. Thank you for joining us, Brandon Lewis.

:39:11.:39:13.

It's just gone 11.40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

:39:14.:39:15.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

:39:16.:39:21.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

:39:22.:39:24.

Coming up on the programme: Voters go to the polls on Thursday.

:39:25.:39:28.

Are their minds made up or is there anything the parties can

:39:29.:39:31.

Tax has been the dominant issue of this campaign.

:39:32.:39:37.

We'll be asking how the numbers add up and who gains and loses.

:39:38.:39:41.

"Down with compromise, down with hesitancy" -

:39:42.:39:44.

the call to workers to take part in the General Strike 90 years

:39:45.:39:48.

If the Scotland Act was an attempt to allay constitutional dissent

:39:49.:39:57.

by giving Holyrood increased powers, then the current election

:39:58.:39:59.

campaign has shown the flaws in that argument.

:40:00.:40:02.

The SNP looks on course to secure a convincing

:40:03.:40:04.

Bids by Labour and the Liberal Democrats to to use the new powers

:40:05.:40:10.

coming to the Scottish parliament could result in the parties

:40:11.:40:13.

being pushed into third and fifth place respectively.

:40:14.:40:16.

Meanwhile, the Greens, which also supports independence,

:40:17.:40:18.

Even the Conservatives, bidding to take second place,

:40:19.:40:23.

does so on the basis that it will strongly oppose

:40:24.:40:26.

So after 18 months, is the constitution still king?

:40:27.:40:32.

Professor John Curtice, is in our London studio.

:40:33.:40:42.

Is there any? It is still king, isn't it? Is there any sign that any

:40:43.:40:47.

thing else is altering this campaign? No, the truth is the big

:40:48.:40:53.

division in Scottish electoral politics is the constitutional

:40:54.:40:57.

question. Opinion polls are finding, including ones out this morning,

:40:58.:41:01.

that 85% of those who voted yes in the referendum back in September

:41:02.:41:07.

2014 are now backing the SNP and conversely only about 15% of those

:41:08.:41:13.

who voted no backing the SNP. Of course, it's always been true that

:41:14.:41:17.

the constitutional question has been one of the central question is, if

:41:18.:41:21.

we go back to 2011 when the SNP won and then, the truth is that there

:41:22.:41:24.

were plenty of people out there who on that occasion were voting for the

:41:25.:41:26.

SNP, even not necessarily wanting

:41:27.:41:44.

independence. They were saying we think SNP can provide the --

:41:45.:41:46.

Scotland with the best government. But the truth is, those days are

:41:47.:41:48.

over. The foundation of the SNP's lead in the opinion polls is pretty

:41:49.:41:51.

much every body who once independence, they are determined to

:41:52.:41:53.

repeat their vote independence by voting for the SNP. That makes it

:41:54.:41:57.

pretty much impossible for any other party to make progress. From the

:41:58.:42:01.

SNP's point of view, the support for independence might not be very good

:42:02.:42:05.

when it comes to a referendum but is terrific when it comes to an

:42:06.:42:08.

election exit leaves everyone fighting over the other half of the

:42:09.:42:13.

population. That's right. In this morning's opinion personal, it is

:42:14.:42:19.

much in line with other polls since the referendum. 45%, 47% doesn't win

:42:20.:42:27.

you a referendum but for a Parliamentary election, even under

:42:28.:42:31.

proportional representation, when your opponents are divided between

:42:32.:42:35.

two or three political parties, that puts you in a dominant position

:42:36.:42:39.

because the truth is, it has looked as though the SNP have been

:42:40.:42:42.

guaranteed at least 44% of the vote for the last 18 months and as we saw

:42:43.:42:47.

12 months ago, can conceivably get 50%. The referendum may not have

:42:48.:42:52.

been one of the referendum has provided the SNP with a very

:42:53.:42:58.

foundation which is difficult to overcome for others, because it has

:42:59.:43:00.

made the constitutional question something that is more popular than

:43:01.:43:04.

it was and something which is now reflected in the ballot box to a

:43:05.:43:08.

much greater extent than before. If the polls are correct, this election

:43:09.:43:12.

is about who comes second, isn't it? Do the Tories have a chance, do you

:43:13.:43:16.

think? They would love it, wouldn't they? They would love it and the

:43:17.:43:19.

Tories have a chance but if one looks across the piste, the truth is

:43:20.:43:26.

we had one or two that have said the Tories are close to Labour, may be

:43:27.:43:30.

very slightly ahead, whereas we've had others including the one this

:43:31.:43:35.

morning which has said they have a fair lead over the Conservatives.

:43:36.:43:39.

The odds are still in Labour's favour but the results are certainly

:43:40.:43:44.

less than 100%. To that extent at least, the Tories will go into the

:43:45.:43:49.

election on Thursday still somewhat hopeful, although not expected. The

:43:50.:43:50.

fact we're talking about this, it's hopeful, although not expected. The

:43:51.:43:58.

not a commentary on how successful Conservatives are at 17% or 18%, the

:43:59.:44:03.

high end of where they've been in the polls for the last 20 years or

:44:04.:44:07.

so in Scotland, it is how far Labour can sink, and during the course of

:44:08.:44:14.

this campaign, we've had two or three opinion polls which have

:44:15.:44:17.

produced record low shares for Labour. Maybe the one thing that

:44:18.:44:21.

will help Labour out and there are signs of this is morning, is that if

:44:22.:44:25.

indeed as a result of talking about the constitutional question, and

:44:26.:44:31.

when the Conservatives but... She puts off some of those no voters

:44:32.:44:36.

that the SNP do have, at that might possibly help the Labour Party to

:44:37.:44:38.

ensure that they say about possibly help the Labour Party to

:44:39.:44:45.

conservatives. The implication is that the voters out of their hands

:44:46.:44:50.

because you've described what he SNP does and what the Tories do, rather

:44:51.:44:54.

than what Labour does. The thing Labour have discovered in the

:44:55.:44:57.

selection is the strategy be pursued on the taxation and spending issue,

:44:58.:45:02.

while it was perfectly sensible, in truth has not evidently worked. But

:45:03.:45:05.

the Labour Party worked out is the people they lost to the SNP in the

:45:06.:45:08.

wake of a referendum was essentially they're more left-wing vote, people

:45:09.:45:14.

who had a belief in a more equal society which was part of the vision

:45:15.:45:18.

of independence which the SNP put forward. Labour said we will try and

:45:19.:45:24.

win these people back by outflanking the SNP on the left by saying we

:45:25.:45:28.

will put up taxes on the SNP will not. A couple problems. While people

:45:29.:45:32.

in Scotland would be willing to pay more, they are not necessarily keen

:45:33.:45:38.

on paying more than people south of the border. At the end of the day,

:45:39.:45:41.

people are going to vote for the SNP because of their views on his

:45:42.:45:45.

independence, even though a majority of SNP supporters say that they

:45:46.:45:49.

think the basic rate of income tax should go up. The taxation issue, as

:45:50.:45:53.

central as it has been to the debate, has not shifted voters

:45:54.:45:58.

because essentially, voters's views have been trimmed by their views on

:45:59.:46:02.

the constitutional question. Do you think there is any merit in the

:46:03.:46:07.

argument to some extent people like Dugdale have, which is look, OK,

:46:08.:46:12.

we've positioned ourselves. We might not convince people for whom the

:46:13.:46:16.

main thing is independence in this election, but we are playing a

:46:17.:46:21.

longer game here. We're trying to reinvent the party. Absolutely

:46:22.:46:24.

right. The Labour Party in Scotland does need to be reinvented but what

:46:25.:46:28.

I would say is the thing the Labour Party really needs to do north of

:46:29.:46:33.

the border is not simply to come up with eye-catching policies but to

:46:34.:46:36.

come up with a story of the kind of Scotland it wants to create and how

:46:37.:46:46.

it is going to get there. I am not sure, in truth, so far cosier

:46:47.:46:48.

Dugdale has demonstrated she has that bigger story. As we saw during

:46:49.:46:51.

opinion polling in the last week, people know what he SNP stand for

:46:52.:46:59.

and the SNP told Scotland a picture of what they want to create during

:47:00.:47:05.

the independence of action. If you ask people what the latest party

:47:06.:47:08.

stands for, many people will say no. Dugdale may have a plan to reform

:47:09.:47:12.

labour but the truth is, I am not sure she has shown enough of that

:47:13.:47:19.

plan might be. -- Labour. One would expect to want to tell that story

:47:20.:47:24.

from the rooftops in advance of the selection more than waiting

:47:25.:47:29.

afterwards. The slightly tentative nature of Labour's campaign is sewn

:47:30.:47:33.

up by the fact they didn't bothered to release them manifested until a

:47:34.:47:38.

week before late election day. To be so late in coming up with the

:47:39.:47:42.

principal election document, it did seem an extraordinary decision.

:47:43.:47:46.

principal election document, it did what way think many people would say

:47:47.:47:51.

was an uneventful campaign, one of the most controversial figures has

:47:52.:47:55.

been you! You wrote a paper, an article, saying that if you support

:47:56.:47:58.

independence, there might be certain areas where you would be better off

:47:59.:48:02.

voting for one of the other parties on the SNP, like the Greens or Rise,

:48:03.:48:08.

not the SNP itself and all hell broke loose. You got lots of

:48:09.:48:11.

brickbats. Do you think that as this case? If the opinion polls are

:48:12.:48:18.

correct and the SNP are going to get maybe over 50% of the vote, as a

:48:19.:48:25.

result of that, probably mop up virtually all of the 73 first past

:48:26.:48:29.

the post constituencies that are available to be won on Thursday, and

:48:30.:48:32.

if the polls are also right in saying that on the list vote, the

:48:33.:48:37.

SNP may not do as well, in those circumstances, the truth of the

:48:38.:48:42.

arithmetic is that the SNP may well end up only getting additional MSP

:48:43.:48:46.

is in one or two regions of Scotland.

:48:47.:48:57.

What you do about that in a sense is up to you. If you are a committed

:48:58.:49:01.

SNP supporter, the truth is you are going to vote for the SNP on both

:49:02.:49:04.

votes, come what may. If, however, the position is that what actually I

:49:05.:49:07.

would like to be able to do is maximise the number of MPs, MSP 's,

:49:08.:49:10.

who are in favour of independence, maybe you will want to take the

:49:11.:49:12.

wrist of voting for the Greens who maybe you will want to take the

:49:13.:49:16.

look as though in the opinion polls they are capable of taking them on,

:49:17.:49:19.

in the hope they will get more in the way of MSP. Now, that is not a

:49:20.:49:26.

strategy that doesn't come without risk because the truth is, maybe the

:49:27.:49:30.

SNP are not going to do as well as the opinion polls say. Maybe they

:49:31.:49:35.

will need additional MSP is to get past the winning post. The paper was

:49:36.:49:40.

trying to point type of the potential limitations of the

:49:41.:49:44.

electoral system, where voters can be faced with a tactical dilemma.

:49:45.:49:48.

What voters do about it, at the end of the day, is entirely up to them.

:49:49.:49:54.

This conversation has been on the assumption that the SNP are going to

:49:55.:50:00.

walk it. They will be worried, presumably on things like turnout,

:50:01.:50:05.

about complacency. Looking at the other side, it wouldn't take that

:50:06.:50:08.

much, would it, to stop the SNP having a

:50:09.:50:13.

All parties worry about turnout. They are particularly concerned

:50:14.:50:22.

about turnout. I think certainly, perhaps in one word, I would suggest

:50:23.:50:28.

that probably don't set your expectations too high. If the

:50:29.:50:34.

constitutional question is so central to the way people are going

:50:35.:50:39.

to vote, and if that is becoming more the case and some of those

:50:40.:50:45.

people who voted no may not vote for SMP at the end of the day, the SNP

:50:46.:50:49.

might not do much better than they did five is ago. Some of the opinion

:50:50.:50:53.

polls have been suggesting they would do dramatically better. It

:50:54.:50:59.

isn't in the bag for the SNP. It never is until all the votes are

:51:00.:51:03.

counted. They need to press their expectations and I would say to

:51:04.:51:06.

Nicola Sturgeon I know you wish to maintain the enthusiasm of your

:51:07.:51:10.

supporters and that's why you're talking about the referendum but at

:51:11.:51:15.

this stage of the campaign, you are trying to appeal to as wide a

:51:16.:51:19.

section of the electorate as possible, particularly to the

:51:20.:51:21.

undecided and they weren't necessarily share the enthusiasm and

:51:22.:51:26.

interest for the independence referendum the bulk of your

:51:27.:51:27.

supporters will have. Briefly, the referendum the bulk of your

:51:28.:51:31.

Liberal Democrats, this was always going to be difficult for them. The

:51:32.:51:35.

truth is, they're not defending very much. They did very bad five years

:51:36.:51:39.

ago. The opinion polls are saying they will hang on to what they've

:51:40.:51:47.

got. The Greens could well overtake the Liberal Democrats as the fourth

:51:48.:51:53.

party in Holyrood. Willie Rennie might find himself even further back

:51:54.:51:58.

if, indeed, Patrick Harvie has more MSPs than he does after Thursday.

:51:59.:52:00.

Thank you very much for that. Tax has been the dominant

:52:01.:52:03.

theme of this campaign, with pledges to keep it the same,

:52:04.:52:05.

raise it for top earners, Some extraordinary claims have been

:52:06.:52:07.

made about the effect it Stephen Hay, who is

:52:08.:52:12.

a senior tax partner for the accountancy firm RSM,

:52:13.:52:21.

joins me from our Edinburgh studio. Let's start with a controversy about

:52:22.:52:32.

the proposal by Labour to raise the top rate of tax by 50p. While they'd

:52:33.:52:39.

like to do that, they don't want to be because they have advice that you

:52:40.:52:48.

could end up losing tax revenue explain this for those of us that

:52:49.:52:51.

aren't glued to accountancy spread to -- spreadsheets. Some people say

:52:52.:53:02.

19,000 people in Scotland pay tax at 45%. That is people who earn over

:53:03.:53:09.

hundred ?50,000 a year. The idea of putting 5p on that tax rate to get

:53:10.:53:15.

an extra somewhere between ?120 million hundred and 30 million

:53:16.:53:25.

the taxpayer that pays 45%. ?150,000 the taxpayer that pays 45%. ?150,000

:53:26.:53:37.

- ?200,000, there's about 9,000 Scottish taxpayers who earn over

:53:38.:53:42.

?200,000. What we don't know is how much they earn, so it could

:53:43.:53:46.

significant. In general, the view seems to be if you put 5p on the

:53:47.:53:52.

highest rate of tax, some of those top 9,000 could leave the country,

:53:53.:53:59.

leave Scotland, to avoid that. You deal with clients who have got

:54:00.:54:04.

fairly substantial funds. In your dealings with people, do you think

:54:05.:54:11.

people would leave just because you'll be paying tax over those

:54:12.:54:22.

earnings. Those that earn between 150-200,000 will not. I would

:54:23.:54:32.

probably have said that if I was earning over ?200,000 a year, and I

:54:33.:54:38.

was faced with an extra 5p on the tax, if I was in a position where I

:54:39.:54:44.

was in a small or medium sized enterprise and I was able to take a

:54:45.:54:49.

dividend, I would take a dividend. A dividend tax individually is going

:54:50.:54:54.

to be less than 50p, around about 38p, so you'd expect a higher rate

:54:55.:55:03.

taxpayer with a 50% band take a dividend rather than pay 5p on

:55:04.:55:08.

earnings. There are 360,000 enterprises in Scotland and 300 of

:55:09.:55:13.

those enterprises have five or fewer employees, which makes them able to

:55:14.:55:21.

take a dividend. And I think the problem here is not about people

:55:22.:55:25.

taking flight. It's about the fact that if a dividend were to be taken

:55:26.:55:32.

instead of the 5p tax, dividend taxes are not devolved to Scotland.

:55:33.:55:37.

These savings taxes. They are preserved at Westminster which means

:55:38.:55:40.

the tax itself, if collected by individuals deciding to take a

:55:41.:55:44.

dividend rather than a salary, it would go to Westminster. So people

:55:45.:55:53.

would pay less tax, as they are paying a tax on dividend, not

:55:54.:55:56.

income, but that is hopeless because the money goes straight to George

:55:57.:56:00.

Osborne. That is the point here, isn't it? Yes, it is. What about

:56:01.:56:06.

putting a penny up on the basic rate which both the Lib Dems and Labour

:56:07.:56:12.

are proposing? Is that going to drive people away? I don't think it

:56:13.:56:17.

would drive people away. It is a very interesting point. The whole

:56:18.:56:22.

point about the 1p on the tax is in the current Parliament, there is no

:56:23.:56:30.

option if one raises or lowers tax rates. You have to raise it for the

:56:31.:56:34.

lower, higher, everyone would have to have an increase, everyone would

:56:35.:56:39.

have to have a decrease. That is the problem we face today. If the

:56:40.:56:43.

parties were in power, they would use the current powers available to

:56:44.:56:48.

them to do so. The Scottish National Party have said they feel they would

:56:49.:56:53.

not... There must be presumably at least in theory a limit to this.

:56:54.:56:58.

Perhaps put people's tax up by 1p, they're not going to leave the

:56:59.:57:02.

country or take their income as dividends, as you were at

:57:03.:57:11.

describing. The more you have a divergences between Scotland and the

:57:12.:57:15.

UK, if taxes here are higher, there is more incentive to do that. What

:57:16.:57:20.

we are missing is the fact about tax 's rates and bands. We haven't seen

:57:21.:57:25.

this at the moment because Scotland doesn't have the power to raise tax

:57:26.:57:31.

rates and bands as they like. From the 6th of April 2017, that is when

:57:32.:57:38.

the difference is going to be. You might see a 30% band coming into

:57:39.:57:42.

Scotland. You might see a third % band at a particular limit, a 40% at

:57:43.:57:49.

a front limit. We might see 45 bands. That's the point a lot of

:57:50.:57:53.

parties are beginning to make. It's not about the 1p on the basic rate.

:57:54.:57:58.

It is about when do you start paying tax at a higher rate? The issue here

:57:59.:58:08.

is 25% of the population pay tax at 30%. You'd get far more people

:58:09.:58:13.

paying far more tax than you would if you put 5p on the top end where

:58:14.:58:18.

perhaps only 18,000 people would pay it. I expect to see bands coming in,

:58:19.:58:23.

and that might make a difference. Can we make something clear and the

:58:24.:58:26.

bands - the Scottish government has one of is the other parties are

:58:27.:58:32.

saying that they will not do what George Osborne is going to do which

:58:33.:58:36.

is raise the threshold for the 40p band, up eventually to ?50,000. And

:58:37.:58:47.

they claim that various amounts of money resulting from that. It's not

:58:48.:58:50.

any extra money for the Scottish government, is it? They don't need

:58:51.:58:55.

to make savings the way George Osborne has to make savings. It's

:58:56.:58:59.

interesting. What George Osborne isn't doing is not a competition.

:59:00.:59:04.

Not for a taxpayer. A taxpayer lives in a country, whether that is

:59:05.:59:08.

Scotland or the UK. What is going to happen is that in Scotland we are

:59:09.:59:12.

going to have a tax system, like it or not, and that's tax system will

:59:13.:59:16.

determine how much we pay in taxes based on our ability to raise that

:59:17.:59:21.

money to spend. What is going to happen, going forward, is no matter

:59:22.:59:25.

what George Osborne does, we will be faced with a tax position in the

:59:26.:59:29.

Scottish government here and we will have to pay it. Our alternative is

:59:30.:59:36.

to try to avoid paying it or to leave Scotland altogether and go to

:59:37.:59:39.

England, and as we've said earlier, my view is that is not something one

:59:40.:59:44.

would do unless the tax was significantly different.

:59:45.:59:49.

Significantly greater. We might find those in the middle income brackets

:59:50.:59:52.

are paying more tax than they are today. And, again, I'm not too for

:59:53.:59:57.

those people would be the people who could leave Scotland. All right,

:59:58.:00:01.

thank you very much for joining us this morning.

:00:02.:00:02.

Exactly 90 years ago today thousands of people gathered on Glasgow Green

:00:03.:00:05.

in Glasgow for a Mayday rally, wondering what was going to happen

:00:06.:00:07.

next in the dispute between the miners and the Conservative

:00:08.:00:10.

What happened, of course, was the General Strike,

:00:11.:00:15.

It started in the coalfields. A dispute about wages and hours. At

:00:16.:00:29.

pits across the country, work stopped on May the 4th, 1926, the

:00:30.:00:35.

next day the battle began to tell the story of the strike. This was

:00:36.:00:42.

produced for the government on behalf of the employers. The trade

:00:43.:00:46.

unions paper highlighted what it saw as the success of the action. World

:00:47.:00:53.

War I ended eight years earlier. Arguably, it had laid down the roots

:00:54.:00:57.

of the general strike. It dramatically affects coal mining

:00:58.:01:02.

because Cole couldn't be sent abroad. People started to rely on

:01:03.:01:08.

other countries to supply them with coal. That undermined the miners.

:01:09.:01:15.

There was an investigation into the miners' conditions and the

:01:16.:01:21.

government suggested 13.5% of their salary would be. At and their hours

:01:22.:01:29.

would be lengthened. It was a battle for control, as owners of the

:01:30.:01:32.

pre-nationalisation coal industry reasserted themselves. 1926 can be

:01:33.:01:41.

seen, I think, as an attempt by the employers to regain control which

:01:42.:01:44.

they felt had been lost during the First World War and its aftermath.

:01:45.:01:50.

They'd lost control of their workplaces, lost control of the

:01:51.:01:53.

management of reduction, to some extent, with workers more confident,

:01:54.:01:58.

aiming a much greater share of effective daily practical control

:01:59.:02:04.

over how their work was organised. Engineers and shipbuilders in the

:02:05.:02:08.

West of Scotland were not called out until seven days later, the day the

:02:09.:02:13.

strike actually came to an end. It was called off very suddenly, to the

:02:14.:02:18.

great annoyance and anger of a lot of people in Glasgow, particularly

:02:19.:02:20.

those who had actually only been called out that they face the fact

:02:21.:02:24.

they were called out and the whole strike had been called off. I think

:02:25.:02:29.

the trade union Congress absolutely lost a of support. They lost 1.5

:02:30.:02:38.

million members partly as a result of how they had given up so quickly.

:02:39.:02:43.

The impact of the general strike was remarkable. Actually, far more

:02:44.:02:52.

workers came out on strike from a sense of shared class loyalty to the

:02:53.:02:56.

miners, groups of workers in a variety of money factoring

:02:57.:03:00.

industries, including in Glasgow, in Scotland, the textile industry,

:03:01.:03:04.

there were many women workers as well as male workers involved in the

:03:05.:03:09.

stoppage, so, actually, the scale of the stoppage surprise not only the

:03:10.:03:13.

30s, the government of the day, the Conservative government of the day,

:03:14.:03:17.

but surprise the TUC itself. People in the TUC got very, very cold feet

:03:18.:03:22.

very quickly and they were scared by allegations coming from the

:03:23.:03:25.

government that the TUC was attempting to subvert the rotation

:03:26.:03:30.

constitution, the British democratic system. These images come from an

:03:31.:03:36.

album of photographs recently acquired by an adult education

:03:37.:03:40.

Centre in London. They show miners in the Fife coalfield organising,

:03:41.:03:46.

marching, and protesting in May and through the summer of 1926, as they

:03:47.:03:50.

remained locked out of the pits. For six months, miners lived, struggled

:03:51.:03:58.

without income, without work. The level of poverty, the level of...

:03:59.:04:04.

Frankly, the level of class conflict that existed in 1926 was something

:04:05.:04:10.

quite striking in Scotland. Shared with other parts of the coalfields

:04:11.:04:16.

in South Wales, for example, and the north-east of England. But that was

:04:17.:04:21.

a special characteristic of the conflict in Scotland. Mr Speaker,

:04:22.:04:25.

this stinks. Has the government water down its new trade union Bill?

:04:26.:04:28.

This shows this government really is water down its new trade union Bill?

:04:29.:04:30.

at the rotten heart of the European water down its new trade union Bill?

:04:31.:04:33.

Union. The accusation is that David Cameron did it to win support in the

:04:34.:04:38.

European referendum. So, perhaps some of the issues raised in 1926

:04:39.:04:42.

European referendum. So, perhaps are still relevant today.

:04:43.:04:45.

I'm joined by two guests this morning, the Observer columnist

:04:46.:04:47.

Kevin McKenna and Magnus Gardham, who is the political

:04:48.:04:50.

I mean, look, during the lifetime of the next parliament, there will be

:04:51.:05:04.

enormous tax powers devolved to Scotland. This should have been a

:05:05.:05:08.

very exciting election campaign because of that. And it has been

:05:09.:05:15.

pretty dull, to be honest. I think the campaign two have been

:05:16.:05:21.

lacklustre. It has been interesting because of the tax debate we've had

:05:22.:05:25.

but perhaps what has been most interesting is the extent to which

:05:26.:05:29.

it has shown the constitutional question still dominate Scottish

:05:30.:05:30.

politics. Is that the problem, that compared

:05:31.:05:38.

to we went independence, messing around with tax rates just doesn't

:05:39.:05:43.

quite do it for people? I don't know if that is a problem. I think this

:05:44.:05:49.

is certainly what is happening. On paper, labour, the Liberal Democrats

:05:50.:05:54.

have a tax policy which you would think appealed to SNP voters more

:05:55.:05:59.

than the SNP's tax plan. Have SNP voters switched to Labour and the

:06:00.:06:04.

Lib Dems? No, they haven't. I think is pretty clear that the

:06:05.:06:09.

constitution is a big factor and also the figure of Nicola Sturgeon,

:06:10.:06:16.

whose appeal transcends the political dividing line. Judging by

:06:17.:06:20.

your column in the Observer this morning, you haven't managed to get

:06:21.:06:24.

yourself very excited either, have you? The participants in the

:06:25.:06:27.

selection of fighting against the recent history of last year's

:06:28.:06:34.

Westminster election and the referendum on independence six

:06:35.:06:40.

months, eight months prior to that. In both of those elections or polls,

:06:41.:06:44.

there was a sense of history being made and a sense that people were

:06:45.:06:50.

participating in the great, important days and they were lucky

:06:51.:06:53.

that they were around to participate in Fareham. That hasn't really

:06:54.:07:00.

happened here. It has been reduced, the main issue has been tax and

:07:01.:07:05.

whether it is 1p or whether or not, whether the SNP risk-sharing all

:07:06.:07:10.

their wares for the next few years because quite frankly, they don't

:07:11.:07:14.

need to. The only historical axe back to this election is that I

:07:15.:07:19.

cannot remember any time when the UK, when not only is the outcome

:07:20.:07:23.

seemingly assured but also an overall majority, perhaps the second

:07:24.:07:30.

of Tony Blair's wins in the UK, that is the only thing that comes close.

:07:31.:07:35.

So you think the excitement is gone because there is not that sense of

:07:36.:07:39.

will show that because you have 35% will show that because you have 35%

:07:40.:07:45.

-- had 85% turnout at the referendum. You had 71% at

:07:46.:07:50.

Westminster. I think we would be struggling to get around 60% at this

:07:51.:07:58.

one. It just doesn't carry the same romance and drama. It's not to say

:07:59.:08:00.

it is not important because the FS it is not important because the FS

:08:01.:08:04.

-- if the SNP do win this, it means they are set fair for government...

:08:05.:08:10.

What has happened? The idea of lots of people becoming involved in

:08:11.:08:14.

politics for the first time, you bought into the excitement of the

:08:15.:08:17.

referendum campaign, the idea of a new movement and the rest of it. Do

:08:18.:08:22.

you think that has dissipated largely? I am not sure it has

:08:23.:08:26.

dissipated. What it has is reinforced the hegemony of the SNP.

:08:27.:08:33.

We are seeing the prevailing narrative in the selection is still

:08:34.:08:38.

the constitutional issue that we had more than 18 months ago. That has

:08:39.:08:45.

led to a bedrock of 45% to 47% of the SNP vote. That would dominate

:08:46.:08:51.

home election. I happen to disagree with Nicola Sturgeon when she says

:08:52.:08:55.

we are looking for five successive polls of 50% or more. I think going

:08:56.:08:59.

into a second referendum, whether it be in three or five years' time,

:09:00.:09:06.

with 45%, 47% still sticking with pro-independence, that is still 15

:09:07.:09:11.

points better off than when the yes campaign went in to bat a year and a

:09:12.:09:16.

half before the referendum. OK. You think... I see what you mean. You

:09:17.:09:24.

think they could put on another 10%. They are guaranteed 45% or 47%, if

:09:25.:09:29.

the next five polls showed what Professor Curtis was saying, then

:09:30.:09:39.

they are aiming for another 5%, 6%. You had a theory, didn't you, about

:09:40.:09:43.

shy Labour voters. You've been putting it up. They are very, very,

:09:44.:09:49.

very shy indeed. Do you think they might still be there? The poll today

:09:50.:09:55.

in the Sunday Times suggests they might be starting to emerge and

:09:56.:09:58.

in the Sunday Times suggests they certainly, the point that Professor

:09:59.:10:03.

Curtis was making about a Tory victory over Labour depends more

:10:04.:10:07.

actually on how low Labour sinks than it does how well the Tories

:10:08.:10:12.

perform. The Tories themselves understand that which is why they

:10:13.:10:19.

have talked about overtaking Labour but they've not ever been and

:10:20.:10:24.

confident that they are going to be able to do it. Yeah, the polls are

:10:25.:10:33.

giving Labour a bit... This phenomenon was a new one, wasn't it?

:10:34.:10:39.

It was the idea... It's used to be with the Tories, that people didn't

:10:40.:10:43.

like to tell pollsters that actually they were going to vote

:10:44.:10:46.

Conservative. You find the same thing in Scotland with Labour. Yeah.

:10:47.:10:51.

Friends in the SNP and the Tories both told me that when they are

:10:52.:10:55.

knocking on doors, people will both told me that when they are

:10:56.:10:59.

volunteer a view on the SNP and they will say yes, we like them or no, we

:11:00.:11:03.

don't like the SNP but they weren't volunteering the fact that they were

:11:04.:11:07.

Labour. It raises a big question about whether the Labour vote is

:11:08.:11:10.

there, whether it is going to turn out and all of these things. It

:11:11.:11:15.

makes it very, very difficult to predict, actually, how Labour and

:11:16.:11:18.

the Conservatives are going to do on Thursday in relation to each other.

:11:19.:11:24.

I think I am right in saying, you would have liked to have seen the

:11:25.:11:28.

SNP being a bit more radical in its programme for the next few years but

:11:29.:11:34.

I presume they would say, first of all, we've got to worry about

:11:35.:11:41.

voters, a huge number of voters who might not like that radical

:11:42.:11:43.

programme and also we don't have to because we are going to win anyway.

:11:44.:11:48.

Yeah, that is what I would like the SNP to deliver more on, its

:11:49.:11:55.

narrative since 2007. I suspect that they would say, well, look, we are

:11:56.:11:59.

the dominant party, we want to first of all ensure that we are returned

:12:00.:12:05.

as a party of government and that we maintain our overall majority. To do

:12:06.:12:07.

that, we have to continue our appeal maintain our overall majority. To do

:12:08.:12:13.

to a wide spectrum of voters, including some who maybe don't want

:12:14.:12:17.

to vote for independence. How long do you think that can last? Do you

:12:18.:12:21.

think they does come a point where perhaps people say, in the Glasgow

:12:22.:12:28.

area, where many used to be Labour, who voted SNP because they thought

:12:29.:12:33.

in a way independence became a proxy about something more radical

:12:34.:12:36.

happening van has happened up until now, do you think at any point they

:12:37.:12:43.

get fed up and say, what the SNP is proposing isn't many more radical?

:12:44.:12:48.

By the end of the next session of Hollywood, the SNP, if they win,

:12:49.:12:52.

will have been in power for 13 years. One of the main criticisms of

:12:53.:12:58.

the Tony Blair government was, at the outset in 1997, that was seen as

:12:59.:13:04.

a three term government and many on the left, not radical left, said

:13:05.:13:08.

this is great, this is more than enough time, there is more than

:13:09.:13:13.

enough opportunity for us not just to have a soft left agenda but to

:13:14.:13:19.

reverse things like Margaret Thatcher's anti-trade union laws and

:13:20.:13:23.

impose stricter laws on the financial businesses. People on the

:13:24.:13:29.

left here, including those who voted for the SNP and voted yes, will say

:13:30.:13:35.

after 13 years, who will be looking for something a little bit more

:13:36.:13:39.

radical, a little bit more reforming that goes beyond little packages of

:13:40.:13:43.

many here for nurses or GPs or primary care. I will have to cut you

:13:44.:13:50.

off because we've completely run out of time. 20 both very much indeed.

:13:51.:13:53.

I'll be back at the same time next week.

:13:54.:13:58.

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