26/06/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland

Here we are on Westminster Green. The Shadow Foreign Secretary has

been sacked. The Shadow Cabinet is resigning at the rate of one an hour

this morning. Is it all over for Mr Corbyn? Not at all. Jeremy isn't

going anywhere. He was elected nine months ago. The biggest mandate of

any political leader in our country and he isn't going anywhere. What

does he do if half the Cabinet will walk out on him today? He will

replace them. What is so disappointing in this is that we

have no government at the moment. Those promises that were made in the

referendum have been reneges upon almost on an hourly basis. The

country is in a difficult position now is the time for the opposition

to hold together. Hilary Benn says Mr Corbyn is not the leader and you

cannot win an election with him. I think they should calm down and

listen to their members. Who trust polls any more? I have seen polls

saying we are on the path for victory. Calm down and

And the confidence of the Parliamentary Labour Party? People

who are softer or party members. I am saying to all members of the

Shadow Cabinet, respect the wishes of the members. In that way, we can

hold together and win the next election. This is all about one of

the basic principles of our party, solidarity. The membership may not

be representative of the wider Labour family in terms of labour

voters. Labour voters on Thursday did not listen to Jeremy Corbyn or

the wider membership? That is true. We argued in the campaign that we

should campaign for remain and reform. We lost by a close margin.

Hilary Benn was the leader in the Shadow Cabinet of that campaign. We

did everything to support it but we lost. We have to respect that. It

does not mean that those people who voted to leave the European Union

will translate that Broad against Labour in the future. Every

electoral test Jeremy Corbyn has faced he has one. Apart from the

referendum. That was on pole at -- one issue, it was not party

political. Jeremy was told he has to deliver two things, Labour voters

and young people. Seven out of ten Labour voters voted for Remain. He

delivered. Take London out of that and remember the fact that young

people did not vote mate in large numbers and it can hardly be a

success. If he's going to fight back, how does he do it today. I

have heard to Michael Moore Shadow ministers resigning before we came

on air. How does he do it? He puts forward the policy programme that we

need to negotiate a better deal with Europe on. He shows leadership in

that way, which is doing, and he mobilises the membership to go to

the Labour supporters to back that programme. We have got to listen to

the Labour supporters that did not Broad for the remain campaign and

listen to their views. Lots of that is about communities being left

behind, the issue he has been highlighting for the last decade.

Does anyone like to Jeremy Corbyn for a lead on this no? 24 hours ago,

maybe more, he was saying we should trigger Article 50 immediately, but

within 12 hours, he was saying, maybe we should not do that? What we

want to know is what the deal will be with Europe. What Jeremy will be

doing with the rest of the Labour Party, the rank and file in

particular, is shaping that the land campaigning around it. We will be

hoping that in the absence of government leadership we will be

able to get the best deal we can. Our relationship with the European

leaders, and social and democratic parties, has been enhanced by

Jeremy's leadership. We think we can negotiate a better deal than this

government. What would you say to any shadow ministers watching who

are thinking of following in the foot steps of Hilary Benn, resigning

and triggering a leadership crisis? I know how disappointed people are

at the loss of the European referendum but now is the time that

we hold together. There is no government in place. We've got to

provide that leadership. Listen to your party members who voted in

overwhelming numbers for Jeremy nine months ago. Solidarity is key. Some

people have been telling us that you have been on leadership movers. No.

I will never stand for leadership of the Labour Party. If Jeremy stands

for another leadership election I will cheer his campaign. I think the

party members will like him again. It is unnecessary. The next few

months are key for the Labour Party. We can lead the country but we need

to hold together. If Jeremy Corbyn was to fall on his sword tomorrow...

He is not. You would not stand? He is not. And any circumstances would

you stand as leader of the Labour Party? Jeremy is not falling on his

sword. He is not going anywhere, and if you did, I would not be standing.

Let's be clear, he is not going anywhere. Over the last 48 hours, on

-- over 200,000 people have signed a petition to support Jeremy Corbyn.

His new style of caring, compassionate, honest politics, I

think it has a grip in the country. As a result, we have one on every

electoral test on it comes to a party campaign and we will do it at

the next general election -- the next general election. Why has part

of your shadow team been going around Labour MPs canvassing support

for John McDonnell to be leader? She has not. I am told she has. She has

not, but if she has, let me make this clear, she has not spoken to me

about this. I am not standing as leader of the Labour Party. She is

part of my team, as a loyal supporter of Jeremy, and has been

until now. If she's phoning around, I think that is wrong. I think it is

disinformation. I do not want to blame the media for this. Some in

the party have tried to divide and rule all the time. It is never going

to happen. Jeremy and I have been close friends for 30 years, the best

political allies. I will always have his back. If he has to stand for

another leadership election, I will be his campaign manager. If he does

not stand again, there are no circumstances in which you would

stand for leader of the Labour Party? Norway. He is going nowhere.

You have said that, I am not arguing. I am not standing and he is

not going. He was elected with an overwhelming mandate. So your

colleague, if she's doing it, she should stop? She is not. She would

not do it without asking me. She is wasting her time? She would not do

it without asking me, it is a myth. Propaganda against us. I wonder

where that would come from? John McDonnell, thank you for being with

us. Thank you to Andrew Marr. This is now the Sunday Politics, coming

live from Westminster. The sun is now coming out, and what a week,

what a date has been in politics, from the moment the referendum

result was confirmed, events have leapt forward at an alarming speed.

Ellie Price has been watching it unfolds. The British people have

spoken and the answer is we are out. It is a victory for ordinary people,

decent people, it is a victory against the big merchant banks,

against big businesses and against big politics. I will do everything I

can as Prime Minister to steady the ship over the coming weeks and

months. But I do not think it would be right for me to try and be the

captain that steers our country to its next destination. We are well

prepared for this. Her Majesty's Treasury and the Bank of England

have engaged extensive contingency planning and the Chancellor and I

have remained in close contact, including through the night at this

point. I am fully aware of how this series and dramatic this moment is

politically. There is no way of predicting all the political

consequences of this event. Especially for the UK. It is a

significant and material change in circumstances, and it is therefore a

statement of the obvious that the option of a second referendum must

be on the table. It is on the table. It was the morning that changed

everything. But the day belonged to the Leave campaign, even if not

everyone agreed. Shame on you, Boris, you are a parasite. The man

who could well be next try minister made a victory speech with a

conciliatory tone. To those who may be anxious, at home or abroad, this

does not mean that the United Kingdom would be in anyway less

united. Nor does it mean it would be any less European. I want to speak

to the millions of people, directly to the millions of people, who did

not thought for this outcome. Especially young people. You may

feel that this decision in some way involves pulling up a drawbridge, or

any kind of isolationism, because I think the very opposite. Whoever

becomes the new Conservative leader will have to find a way of dealing

with the opposites in their own party. The morning after the night

before, Tory MPs insisted they were already looking forward. I am not

really interested in the sense that the deep Windsor in the real world.

I am not interested in the party. For the first time since the 1970s I

have seen people speak in a way that I had not seen in the last 40 years,

Colin, get these immigrants out, calling me a traitor. I have never

seen such unpleasantness unleashed. We have got to heal. That is where

we have got to do the work, the restoration we have to do. Is this

the moment the Conservatives stop banging on about Europe? I suppose

it might be. Do you fancy yourself as leader? I am not going to make

any decision about that until we have rested over the weekend, we

have had a chance to speak to colleagues. I would not rule

anything out. Only of my colleagues thought there was a chance of

reaching over from that Leave side to the other side of the party in

what would be a healing process. I hope you have a woman in the final

two. It is important in 21st century Britain. Whether it is near one of

my brilliant female colleagues, that will be for the party to decide.

Plenty of talk about the future of the Tory leadership at Westminster.

They will be a meeting on Monday of the influential backbench 1922

Committee to discuss that. It will not be the only meeting of MPs. The

Parliamentary Labour Party will be having a catch up with Jeremy

Corbyn. That can often be acrimonious and Mandy could

be the most acrimonious yet. Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn watched on when

David Cameron resigned, but his leadership was called into question

by some of his own MPs. He should not escape the result, they say and

there may be a motion of no-confidence. If we have the

prospect of an early general election, these are serious times,

and we have to make sure that we have leadership that can a chance of

reaching beyond our corner. It is not clear that are currently the

ship can even mobilise our core support, looking at the results we

have had so far. Yesterday Jeremy Corbyn sought to confront is

critics, announcing a review of the party's immigration policy and

answering questions about his leadership. If there is a leadership

contest, William and again? Yes, I am here, thank you.

APPLAUSE I ran a campaign which travelled the

length and breadth of this country. I pointed out there were

difficulties with the European Union, that is obvious, but I also

pointed out that we would achieve better social protections, better

levels of employment, investment, in my view, if we remained part of the

European Union. It was not enough. This morning that Shadow Foreign

Secretary, Hilary Benn, was sacked by Jeremy Corbyn, after plans

emerged to coordinate front bench resignations. After that the Shadow

Health Secretary, Heidi Alexander, resigned. It is understood up to

have the Shadow Cabinet could follow. The ripple effect of the

referendum result is still being felt. Westminster may look the same

on the outside, but politics here has changed forever. Our panel of

the best and the brightest are here to help this page as the events of

the last few days. I think the got the referendum along -- wrong.

Isabel Oakeshott, Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis. Let's start with

Labour, the breaking story this morning. Hilary Benn fired, Shadow

Cabinet ministers resigning. John McDonnell telling me that Jeremy

Corbyn will fight on and that he is never going to be a candidate for

the Labour leadership. Reaction. It is fair to say there is scepticism

among Labour MPs about the words of John McDonnell. This has been

brewing since the referendum result came in. Labour MPs feel the Jeremy

Corbyn's heart was not in the campaign. They feel they are in tune

with Labour activists, not necessarily Labour voters. They are

very pro -- EU. They want to act before the national executive

committee may change the rules. There is a possibility that if there

is another leadership election it will not be automatic that Jeremy

Corbyn to get on the ballot. The Kubot came there. If Jeremy Corbyn

is going to fight on but is facing the resignation of up to 50% of his

Shadow Cabinet today, we do not know, some have gone, how does he

fight on? With great difficulty. By Monday you could end up in a

scenario where Jeremy Corbyn cannot populate his Shadow Cabinet and the

second year shadow ministerial positions. If you cannot deliver the

numbers to form a viable opposition it becomes difficult for him to

remain. During my lifetime the two great political parties have taken

it in turn to meltdown. Labour did it in the 1980s, the Tories did it

in early 2000. It is unprecedented to have both melting down at the

same time. The implications for government are obvious. John Kerry

is visiting soon. It is a measure of how noticed across the world our

disorder in public life is at the moment. The referendum has been a

massive international story, not just a European one. John McDonnell

says there are plenty of other Labour MPs ready to join the Shadow

Cabinet and Jeremy Corbyn has the support of the membership. Clearly

Jeremy Corbyn thinks he can brazen it out. The big question is what is

Tom Watson going to do, his deputy? He is a big figure within the party.

He is trying to make his way back from Glastonbury. It looks like his

mobile phone is about to run out of juice. Here's a couple of hours to

wait until he can get the train back. Total pandemonium. On any

other day, this meltdown in the Labour Party would be the biggest

Tory, but to a lot of people today, it feels like a sideshow to the key

question is, what happens after Brexit and two will be the next

Prime Minister? Who will be the next Prime Minister?

I think he would be a fool to make a prediction. It is hard to see

someone being able to come from relative obscurity as David Cameron

did, in order to join the front rank of politicians. The question really

is if everyone gets behind someone like Theresa May, because she is

seen as the only viable big beast who could take on Boris. Norris was

the face of the winning side. There will be a stop Boris candidates, I'm

sure, among MPs. Is that Theresa May? I'm flattered you're still

interested in my opinion, having got the prediction on the referendum so

horribly wrong. I don't see how a country which has just voted to

leave the European Union can have a Prime Minister who believes it is a

bad idea because the Prime Minister has to negotiate the terms of exit.

I would say the Prime Minister, chancel and Foreign Secretary all

have to be committed believers now. They have all got to be on the same

page. That is almost certainly right, isn't it? Yes, I always

thought Boris would be a shoo-in particularly with the accelerated

timetable the Prime Minister has given this leadership contest. I am

having a moment of doubt as to whether Boris is a shoo-in. It is

strange that in the last 24 hours he doesn't seem to have been on

manoeuvres like so many of his colleagues. He has been flat-footed,

we haven't seen much of him, and already we have seen quite strong

signs of a backlash against Boris. I wouldn't say he is a shoo-in. But if

it comes down to the final two, and goes to the country, he wins, does

he not? All of the polling suggests he is wildly popular with the

members, however that breaks down in an interesting way. He's incredibly

popular when you want to say who do you have a beer with? During a

national crisis, he scores less well and people might feel this is a time

of national crisis but he's very hard to beat among the membership.

We thought we would get a rest after the referendum, that is never going

to happen. You may currently be

unfamiliar with Article 50 You won't be alone, with half

the civil service scrabbling to read It is actually an amendment to the

Treaty of Maastricht. But given it's the key that

unlocks our membership of the European Union,

chances are we will all become very familiar with it over

the next months and years. The UK will be the first country

to trigger Article 50, and it has been left deliberately

vague so that each member state can decide how

and when it wants to leave. As soon as it is invoked,

it opens a two-year window However, David Cameron has

effectively paused the process until the Conservative leadership

contest is over. Once Article 50 is invoked,

the terms of negotiations will be set by our 27 counterparts

in the European Commission. What will be the substance

of the talks? Our budget contributions will be

discussed, as will transition arrangements for expats

and cross-border companies. It is also likely to cover how EU

financial programmes in the UK are phased out,

and whether there should be transitional arrangements and rights

conferred by the EU, But a new trade deal would have

to be arranged separately, could take significantly longer,

and will require ratification from each of the 27

national parliaments. Once a British exit deal has been

hammered out, it will be put to the European Council

and will need support from a qualified majority,

at least 20 of the 27 members, If a deal is reached,

it will then be subject to a vote If a deal cannot be reached,

the two-year period can be extended, but only through a unanimous vote

of the council. There we are, much more of that to

come in the weeks ahead. Earlier I spoke to the former

Labour Prime Minister, Tony Blair. I began by asking him if he accepted

Thursday's result that we are now out of the European Union

for the forseeable future. I accept the result was to get out

of Europe, that is clear. What do we do now? What I also think is that we

have got to be very careful now to take our time and work out what the

consequences are of exit and what our new relationship with Europe

will be. Here is where I think it is important we don't rush this

process, there is no need to rush it. I think in the next two or three

months, the present by Minister has got an important role to play in

shaping how that negotiating framework will proceed, and I think

it is important for the country to see what are the actual

consequences. What's the reality of leaving, and what possible options

are there for new relationships. The leaders of Europe, including

President Jean-Claude Juncker, have said there is no point waiting, just

apply for Article 15 out, start the process, let's get on with it. What

do you say to that? I understand their frustration and dismay at the

result in Britain but it is not in the interests of Europe or Britain

to rush this. We are dealing with vast consequences, and we have got

to take it very carefully. I have worked very closely with Angela

Merkel, I know her very well. She is a very sensible person. I mean, she

has those good German qualities of practical common sense and realism,

and she will want to do this, I think, in a way that gets the best

for Europe and indeed for Britain because people want to retain that

relationship with Britain. I don't know how much room for manoeuvre

these people that have led the Leave campaign have. But I think they also

have a big responsibility to help our country get itself through what

have a big responsibility to help is going to be an agonising and

highly complicated process of defining a new relationship with

Europe. The odd thing about this referendum, when you think about it,

it's like saying to someone, right, you are going to swap your house.

You know where you live but you will swap it for another house. And right

now, we can give you two people, you cannot see that the house but we can

give you two people who tell you what they think. One says this house

will be fantastic, great for you, and the other says this house is

structurally on sound, you will hate it. We have taken the decision to

swap homes, if you like, without having seen what the other thing

looks like. Over this period of time, we will see what it looks

like. We will then get right into the detail because the detail

matters. For example financial services, if we don't have the EU

passport for our financial services, what does that mean for the City of

London? You could get thousands of jobs going so how do you preserve

it? What does the car industry do? We have hundreds of thousands of

jobs dependent on it. I think the detail will really matter and we

need to take our time over this so that the country also carries on

being engaged in a debate about what this really means. But what would

you advise Boris Johnson and Michael Gove to go for in terms of the

overall relationship? The details will take a long while, I understand

that, but broadly what kind of relationship would you advise them

to have going forward? I think one that preserves as much as we can of

our access to the market in Europe because that is essential, I mean

half of our trade is with Europe, but secondly which allows us at

least some decisions that will be made that have a direct bearing on

Britain. One of the things that so curious about this whole process is

that we are an independent country, we are an independent country now. I

say to people, I think the ten years I had as by Minister, I cannot think

of a single decision that Europe said to me I had to make or I

couldn't make other than those to do with Europe specifically. We will

now be in this new relationship with Europe, we have got to work out what

is in our interests. We have got to understand something as well, I

think it is very important about where the country is today. I think

it is deeply divided. The Leave camp won, but 48% voted Remain. I think

there was a lot of dismay and anger among that 48%. I think a lot of

young people particularly feel their future has been changed in a way

they profoundly disagree with. And so, if there is a desire in the

Leave camp to try to bring the country back together, if there is a

maturity there in the politics of Leave, we have also got to show a

majority for the politics of Remain and work out how we do this best for

the country but that argues for a negotiating process which allows the

country at every stage to see, this is the reality. It is no longer

about claims and counterclaims. Do you rule out another referendum? As

I'm looking at it here, I can't see how we would do that. You will have

a reality to test yourself against. For example, in the last few days

there has been this vast crash in the financial markets, something

like $3 trillion has been wiped out financial markets globally, the

pound has obviously fallen dramatically, but maybe studies

itself in the days to come. The British people and the Europeans

need to see that reality. Maybe as we get into it, there are companies

that say, we are perfectly happy, we can live with the new arrangement,

others say, we can't. If we finally see the structure, what is in the

new house, we see the house we will now move into outside the EU, should

that go for a referendum? As I say, I cannot see how you would go

through the mechanics of another referendum now, but on the other

hand there will be a lot of people in the country that say, let's have

a look at this. Parliament will want to look at it. Remember, the one

thing, again what was strange and unsatisfactory about the referendum

campaign is the devil really is in the detail with this. I was trying

to say to people, if you are deciding whether to join the

European Union, that is one kind of debate, but when you are deciding

whether to leave after four decades of membership, with intricate

relationships, we need to see that. We need to see for example who will

win that battle in French politics between those who say the border

should go back to Dover now or the border will stay in Calais. All of

these things I think are low us now to be, now we are going to see the

new home, now we will look at it and test it, we will be going round it,

we will be seeing what it really means. And so in a sense, what I'm

saying is we have a divided country but I think there is the possibility

of bringing people back together if we are sensible about it and don't

let our dismay on either side of this argument get the better of our

judgment. Why did Remain lose? I don't think that is very hard to

work out. You could buy the wake of this type of referendum anywhere in

Europe at the moment and you would have the potential for the result to

be the same. One of the things I think is important for us as we go

into this European negotiation, it is Europe can take one of two views.

They can say, get out as fast as possible. The other thing they could

do and maybe they should do when they reflect about it, if we

approach this negotiation sensibly, is to think the British had their

referendum but actually we have the same strains of opinion and the same

anxieties in our own countries, let's think about how we deal with

those and let's not look upon the Brits as outliers. They were always

difficult in Europe, now we have got rid of the difficult people. No,

every country is anxious about the effect of globalisation on jobs and

so on. I think it is not hard to see why Leave won. Personally I think it

is a very serious mistake for us but there it is. It's not hard to see

how they win. You still haven't told me why they won. Because when you

take a dissatisfaction with the status quo politically and anxiety

about flat-lining incomes, worries about immigration particularly, and

immigration has always been... Let's be very clear, you and I go back 30,

40 years. Immigration has always been an issue. Where you mobilise

opinion around it, particularly when the British media are prepared to

take your platform and run with it, a referendum in those circumstances

is going to be a tough thing. But immigration has never been bigger

and a lot of the British people felt not so much about the numbers coming

in, as it is very well for these politicians to let the people in but

they are not building the schools and hospitals. They are not building

the public services that we need if these numbers are to go and they

felt the British political elite on the left and right were not

listening to them and they may have been right.

I thought my last election campaign on immigration. I know what a strong

issue it is. But the answer to the problems and the pressures from

Eastern Europe in particular, because I think the Eastern European

is make a good contribution to this country. You did not build the

houses for them coming in, neither did the last Labour government, and

this government has not built enough? That was the reaction. I

would suggest it is also why the Labour Party could not mobilise its

vote for a massive turnout for movie Mac. -- Remain. You were the man

that made the Labour Party love the EU. That is true. We invested

massively in these communities, in education and health care care

particularly. What not in housing? Housing is a real issue. We have to

take it seriously. The right way to deal with it is to have a housing

policy for the population as a whole. The other thing about

immigration, it all gets lumped together. I think a lot of people's

anxieties about immigration were not centred around those from Europe of

those from outside Europe, however, I do except there were communities,

and when people see their communities changing around them as

a result of an influx of people, you have got to deal with that. Yes, I

agree, but the answer is not to get out of Europe. Would your side

perhaps have won if Labour had not fought such a half hearted campaign?

I have made my comments on the campaign. What is important for us

is to make sure that our own people understand why we were so passionate

about staying in Europe. None of the problems that our voters face,

problems and pressures on housing, jobs, health care, education, they

will might be resolved by leaving Europe. One of the things that will

also happen over the months to come is that as this reality, I keep

seeing, now you can test this by reality, as that sinks in, there

will be lots of Labour voters that realised this was not a smart move

that the country has made. This morning, after the sacking of Hilary

Benn, a prominent supporter of movie Mike -- Remain in the Shadow

Cabinet, there seems to be amounting to inside the Parliamentary Labour

Party against Jeremy Corbyn. Should there be at two? I was coming on

this programme to talk about Europe. -- a coup. I understand why you have

to ask me. I know nothing more than I have read in the newspapers and

seen on in years. This is for the Parliamentary party. It is not

helpful for me to intervene, so I am not going to.

The former Prime Minister Tony Blair, speaking to me

But not about Labour's mounting troubles today. They have just got

more serious. Another Labour MP, Ivan Lewis, who is running for M --

for me than Manchester, has called on Jeremy Corbyn to step down. --

for mayor. Now Jo Coburn is here

with us this morning. She's high up on the rooftops,

casting her eye over events Events are so fast moving

politically, the next Prime Minister in the Conservative Party

leadership, and what happens to the UK after Brexit. Let's get some

reaction from a former cabinet minister.

With me now is the former Cabinet Minister Francis Maude,

who was a Europe minister under Margaret Thatcher and negotiated

You never made it clear before the referendum what side you were wrong.

Can you tell us no? I am not going to see which way I voted until May

direct my memoirs many years from now. You surprised by the result? I

thought it would be a narrow victory for Remain but there was lots of

anxiety around. My concern is that this is not a binary thing. The

referendum result? The referendum clearly was, and it has to be, all

or nothing, yes or no. The reality is, for quite some time, we have

been a 65% per participant in the European Union. We are not part of

the currency, or the Schengen agreement. At the end of this

process, we should not be a nonparticipant. Boris Johnson said

yesterday we are European nation. We will continue to be. The result of

this cannot be pulling up the drawbridge into some sort of

isolation. That is the language you're using, but the fact is the UK

has voted to leave the European Union. Negotiations will start. They

should not be rushed. They should not be rushed? No, Tony Blair was

right when he said it is neither in Britain's or in the EU's interest

for it to be rushed. There is a debate in the EU. People are talking

about what happened in Britain on Thursday, but that is not a

completely unique British phenomenon. But no one else has left

the EU. There is anxiety about the direction of the EU in other

countries, for example, the Netherlands. When I was doing

European stuff 24 years ago, that was the most deeply pro-EU country

that there was. That debate within the EU that someone spotted, Donald

Tusk has spotted it, Angela Merkel has spotted it, that carrying on and

assuming that this rigid doctrine, one size fits all, that approach,

assuming that is the only way you can go, if that continues to be the

case, there is a severe danger that the EU will spring apart. You think

this could trigger a series of events that could be the beginning

of the end for the EU? Unlettered reacts in a grown-up, sensible way.

Why would it do that? I have heard European leaders saying that

actually we have to see Great Britain, the United Kingdom, heard

by leaving the EU, or what signal does it send to the one else? The

signal it would send is it as an organisation which is willing to

self harm in order to protect the very narrow, rigid approach to how

countries collaborate and work together. Britain is the fifth

biggest economy in the world, the biggest trading partner with our

partners in the EU. To do something which damaged our economy

deliberately would actually damage the European Union as well. Talking

of harm... Europe would pretty soon start sneezing if we caught the

cold. What about the Conservative Party? Lots of people were shocked

when David Cameron resigned on Friday morning? Where you? I was

disappointed. He has been an excellent Prime Minister and has led

some excellent reforms. I sat round the Shadow Cabinet table with him

for ten years and I am full of admiration for the leadership they

give the party. It has to be his decision. I understand his view that

the negotiations about the new arrangements of Britain's

relationship with Europe has to be undertaken by someone who has been

in the campaign. Like Boris Johnson? I have worked closely with Boris,

Michael Gove, I am full of admiration for him. There are some

very serious candidates. They would give the right leadership in the

country and the party. Is Boris Johnson unstoppable? I have no idea,

I am not in the House of Commons, so I do not know. In terms of advice,

let's imagine Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are part of the

negotiating team once there is a leadership contest. What would you

say to them? The starting point, so far as economic relationship with

our current partners in the European Union is concerned, the starting

point should be that others need to show why we should not be able to

trade on the same kind of bases that we do at the moment. Bielik Norway,

or Switzerland? Nothing has to be quite so one size fits all as you're

suggesting. There is no single model. Britain is the fifth biggest

economy in the world. It is a different kind of relationship. It

has always had a different kind of relationship within the European

Union. This will be another different relationship in the

future, unique and distinctive. When people start saying, of course,

Britain cannot be part of the single financial market, the answer is, why

not? You need to show why. Everyone has been saying that Europe as well

as Britain benefits from being in the single financial market. Why

would you want to commit an act of self harm to deny that? You sound as

though it will be smooth and straightforward, Britain will get

what it once in terms of the benefits of being in the EU, despite

having left, and none of the things that the goal voted on, freedom of

movement for example? Freedom of movement is coming under criticism,

absolute freedom of movement, as it is framed at the moment, it has been

coming under criticism from many parts of the political spectrum,

both in Britain and across the EU. What was part of their original deal

was freedom of movement of labour, people moving to where they had

jobs. That is different from what we have seen at the moment, which is

what is cause such concern, not just in Britain but in other parts of the

European Union. I'll do surprise but the reaction of European Union, --

European Union leaders, foreign ministers, who are saying that this

is not an amicable divorce, telling Britain to get on with it? It

depends on who you talk to. Donald Tusk has not been speaking in that

kind of language. Angela Merkel has not been speaking in that kind of

language. It depends on who you listen to. There is no sense for

European neighbours to be acting in a way that deliberately harms

Britain because, by harming Britain, they harm themselves. If you inflict

deliberate damage and your nearest neighbour, your biggest trading

partner, that has a blowback effect on them as well. When tempers cool,

I understand they are irritated by all of this, but when it comes down,

and people start to think about what is in their collective

self-interest, then I think you start to get a more rational, more

sensible approach, which does not need to be full of hostility and

anger. Have you been approached to be part of the negotiating team? I

have not. Would you say yes? You have had experience and you're

familiar with negotiating within the EU. I am not pitching for that. I

have left the front line in politics and I am happily engaged in a new

phase of my life. But it really matters that we get this right and I

would be happy to advise whoever is the new government, if they wanted

to hear advice. Should the key negotiating team be full of people

who campaigned to leave? I think it needs to be pretty broad. This was

not a massive vote. It was decisive and clear, there is no room for

argument, but it was not a massive vote to leave. I think the new

government and Prime Minister will need to take his or her role as

leader of the nation as seriously as the role as leader of the party.

Francis Maude, thank you very much. Back to you, Andrew. I have the

words of Ivan Lewis, the Labour MP who is running for the mayor of

Manchester. It is clear Jeremy Corbyn cannot lead us back to

government and there is a real risk we will suffer worse election result

than in 2015. Ivan Lewis, MP. No more shadow ministers have resigned

so far. Maybe some of them having second thoughts after they watched

interview with John McDonnell. I am joined now by one of the

Conservative's leading Leave campaigner, Liam Fox. What is your

road map for getting out of the EU? We need to have the establishment of

the unit in Whitehall, which I would like to see Derek Rae answerable to

Number 10 rather than the Foreign Office of the Treasury, to begin

discussions with our European partners ahead of what would be a

trigger for Article 50. Presumably when we have a new Prime Minister in

place. You go along with the existing prime ministers's

timetable, that Article 50 begins the formal Brexit process? You do

not want a trigger that before the autumn? No. It makes sense to decide

our position in the UK. We have to put mechanics in place, increase the

size of the Foreign Office, established a trade department. We

will want to see as members of Parliament tomorrow what work has

been done in preparation for a Brexit. This idea that no

contingency planning was done is preposterous. That would have been

responsible. We will want to see what work has been done and we will

have to get such a unit under way so that there is no vacuum being

created. I have heard some people in the Leave campaign saying it could

be later than the autumn that we begin the formal process. The end of

the year, the beginning of the new Year. That would be difficult. You

would be looking to get an exit from the European Union at the beginning

of the year. The financial year of the European Union is at the start

of the calendar year. That would bring added complications. You want

to get it tidied up. We want to see a process that means we can leave

the European Union on the 1st of January 2019. That seems like a

reasonable timetable. European leaders, particularly those in

Brussels, the president of the commission and so on, they do not

want to wait. They want to start the discussion is now. They may not want

to agree to your ideal formal discussions therefore we present the

Lisbon Treaty button. -- informal talks. Article 50 only gets

triggered when there is a letter or a clearer definition. It is only

Britain that can trigger it? Yes. What the European bureaucrats on,

the ones that are on elected and not answer book to anyone, their

attitude is different to the Chancellor of Germany, who herself

is facing real action next year. You will see an increasing split between

the on elected bureaucrats with no one to answer two and politicians

with real economies to manage. You are confident we can get meaningful,

informal discussions to sketch out some principles, not necessarily

details, this side of triggering Article 50?

Yes and we need to begin soon because there will be a willingness

from our elected parliament to be in those discussions. The brothel --

Brussels bureaucracy regard as impertinent to wanted to have leave

the European Union, but we have got to do it quickly because we have got

to show we have some momentum in this. Otherwise, if we create a

vacuum it is a recipe for instability. Who should head up our

negotiations? That is up to the Prime Minister but I think there

needs to be a mixture of people who understand the views of trade

experts... But who should lead, Michael Gove? He is an excellent

suggestion, we also have Peter Lilley, who was involved in one of

the most recent trade rounds, but we need to get it under way and

Parliament needs to see what preparatory work needs to be done.

Since we voted to leave, Nigel Farage has said it was a mistake to

promise more money for the NHS. Dan Hannan, Tory MP, has said the leave

campaign never promised a radical decline in immigration. So

continuing with the Department of honesty, can we now agree that there

is an extra 350 million quid a week to spend on other public services?

An extra 10 billion per year, but of course that is only available once

we have actually left the European Union, which will be 2019, and those

decisions have to be taken by the Government of the day. That will be

very different from the one we have now. It is a long time in the future

but what the Leave campaign, and what people didn't grasp was that it

wasn't an election, they were reluctant to give future governments

greater choice over the actions they could pursue if they wanted. So I

will log that the 350 is more like 160. Will the Tory department

whittle down the leadership hopefuls to a short list of two by the time

the Parliament across the road goes off to the summary says on July the

21st? It is a decision that will be taken by the 1922 committee. I think

we should have a timetable similar to the one we had in 2005, not least

because our party membership will be involved in the decision. What was

that timetable? We didn't have the MPs' ballot until after the party

conference so people could see a range of candidates they might have.

So you would like a beauty parade at the Tory party conference in the

first week of October that includes all of the Tory candidates? That is

what we did last time, that was the system that produced David Cameron's

election. Then the party... Know, first the House of Commons would

have to reduce five or six candidates down to two, then the

party and the country would have to decide who is right so the Prime

Minister may be there until November. Potentially, under that

timetable. I don't think that has huge drawbacks because we need to

get that period of the pre-talks under way, then you have the new

Prime Minister and can trigger article 50. Is it realistic to have

a lame duck government from the end of June until the beginning of

November? My view is that having that period does not make a huge

difference to the process, but it might make a better choice for

leadership and a better process for the party. And if it is a beauty

parade at the party conference, William Fox be part of that beauty

parade? I don't know, I haven't decided yet. I am thinking about it,

I will make a decision once I have spoken to my colleagues in

Parliament this week. And if you're hat is not in the ring, do you have

a favourite you would support? I might have and you will be among the

first million to know, Andrew! Thank you for that, Liam Fox.

Well, Friday was a pretty dramatic day.

But Thursday was also a pretty dramatic night.

Adam Fleming once again behind the scenes at

It is referendum night, so call in someone who has done it all before.

How does this compared to presenting it in 1975? I cannot remember

anything about 1975 except my hair was brown and not white. What were

you doing in 1975? Were you born? I was a twinkle in my father's eye. We

are going to have to do things the old-fashioned way, wait for the

results to come in one by one. Early to declare Sunderland went Leave's

away by more than they had expected. Newcastle opted for remain by not --

but not by a lot. It felt very close. Look, both on 50%. Do we know

what is happening at this point? No, and I have just responded to a tweet

sent by a colleague. And still we start to see results from the south

east, because the Remain come out predicating a win on a good showing

in London, Surrey, East Sussex, Hampshire, that sort of area. Until

I see some results elsewhere, no, not yet. In between, politicians did

radio interviews in strange places. Come round here, and there is Amber

Rudd, a member of Parliament, in the kitchen. I am waiting to do an

interview, it is living the dream. I will have an Americano with a dash

of milk. Labour areas, lots of them voted out, but according to Labour

that was actually a good thing. What do you think when you see that? It

is what I was expecting. I have been saying all the way along it will be

touch and go, really close. This has demonstrated exactly where the

country is, fairly Eurosceptical but pragmatic and wants to remain

within. Whichever way it goes, I think there will be a few percentage

points either way and Jeremy will be a reflection of how the country

feels and that is what you want in a leader. The percentages were not

going Remain's away, as proved by the miserable faces up their party.

Brexit campaigners like Jacob Rees-Mogg started to think about

dreams of their own. I'm opening a fete on Saturday

and that will be a great celebration Actually, I promised

to take my four-year-old to the toy shop because it was his birthday

yesterday and he can He may get a slightly better present

if there is a Brexit. Finally, just before 5:00am,

David Dimbleby declared The decision taken in 1975 by this

country to join the Common Market has been reversed by this referendum

to leave the EU. The action moved from the studio

to Westminster and they denouement I love this country and I feel

honoured to have The Prime Minister going,

Britain's destiny changed, David Cameron's early morning

announcement of his resignation on Friday fired the starting gun

on the first Conservative leadership To stand for the party leadership,

candidates only need to be If more than two candidates stand,

a ballot of MPs whittles that down via first past the post,

until they are left Those two are then put to the full

membership of the party, said to be about 150,000 strong,

who decide the winner David Cameron has said he wants

a successor in place by the Conservative Party conference

in Birmingham, which starts But it will be the backbench 1922

Committee which decides They will meet tomorrow to set

the process in train. I'm joined now by the Deputy

Chairman of the Conservative Party Is it not inconceivable, given that

the country has voted to leave the EU, that it can be anything but a

Brexit leader to take over? That may be the case but it will be up to the

members and Parliamentary party to decide. My point is that, given the

way the country has voted, given the Conservative Party voted even more

that way to leave, that you need to have a leader that embodies... Was

there for the fight on that side. It may be that the party membership

decides for those reasons to vote for a Brexit leader, but it may be

that they vote for someone over all who they think will best serve the

country and party, it is just unknown. Will they be likely to

trust somebody that said vote to remain to head up the divorce

negotiations to leave? I don't think that will come into the equation

because the country has voted to leave, I don't believe in the second

referendum. I believe our party has moved forward now so people want to

consider a range of things. Who are the main candidate in your view? Who

knows, because no one has put themselves forward yet. Clearly

Boris will be one of them, maybe Stephen Crabb, who knows. What about

Theresa May? We haven't heard from her. I'm sure we will hear from

people over the next week. Including Theresa May? She seems to be missing

in action. We will see. Are George Osborne's leadership hopes now in

toast? We will see. The country has made its decision. You are reluctant

remainer, is that fair? Yes, because with the terrorism I believe it is

better to be in an alliance of democracy. I think as a party we

have faced three existential challenges. One is in terms of how

people perceive us and whether we are seen as a passionate

Conservative Party, second way in terms of our infrastructure. If we

are honest or infrastructure is dying in the country and our

membership is ageing, and thirdly it will be best at restoring party

unity. I want someone who will deal with those serious issues that

really threaten our existence as a party. They are even more relevant

because the Labour Party will get its act together and get rid of

Jeremy Corbyn. The European issue has destroyed the careers of the

last three Conservative prime ministers. Margaret Thatcher, John

Major, now David Cameron. Is there any chance now the country has taken

the decision to leave that it doesn't become the toxic issue it

has been for your party? I think we should follow perhaps the 11th

commandment for every conservatism, pessimism is a luxury know one

should allow themselves. Obviously the renegotiations will be difficult

but we need to move on and discuss other issues that are facing the

country. Finally, what do you make of what Liam Fox has told this

programme, that rather than MPs rushing to create the short list of

two names that then goes to the wider Conservative Party and the

country, to do that by July the 21st with summer hustings and a

combination of the Tory conference if I can put it that way, that in

fact it should all be on hold until the Tory conference and that you

should have hustings there, then whittle it down to two, and have a

new leader by the beginning of November. My own feeling is that it

will be up to 1922 and the membership to decide. I would prefer

that we don't go on forever choosing a leader. I think we need a new

leader for the stability of the country, but we need someone who

will put compassionate conservatism at the forefront.

Your fellow MPs have to get a short list of two by July the 21st? Am not

telling them, but we should have a leadership contest sooner rather

than later, because the country needs stability. I will take that as

a yes. Robert Halfon, thank you very much.

It's not just Her Majesty's Government

feeling the after-shocks of

Plates also appear to be shifting for Her Majesty's

Opposition, with Jeremy Corbyn sacking Hilary Benn

from his Shadow Cabinet last night and facing a vote of no confidence

at tomorrow's meeting of the

The secret ballot will not have any formal status,

but backers hope it will embolden others to speak out,

and build an unstoppable momentum against their leader.

So far, MPs, including Stephen Kinnock, Frank Field,

Caroline Flint and Tristram Hunt, have already said they

However, in order to depose a sitting Labour leader,

a challenger will have to put themselves forward,

and receive the support of 20% of the party's MPs.

There are currently 229 Labour MPs, so 46 would have to back

the leadership challenge by writing to general secretary Iain McNicol

If a nominee secures that level of support,

a contest will be held at the party's autumn conference,

taking place in Liverpool at the end of September.

If any further MP wanted to enter the race, they would also need

Voting takes place on a one member, one vote basis by Labour members,

affiliates and registered supporters.

If more than two candidates stand, voters will rank their preferences.

If no candidates get above 50% on first preference,

the last placed candidate is eliminated and their vote

is transferred until one gets above the threshold.

We are now hearing that another Shadow Cabinet minister has

resigned, Gloria del Piero. One of the younger intake of Labour

politicians from the North, ought to be in tune with what Labour needs to

do in the North. With me now is the Shadow Defence

Secretary Emily Thornberry. Are you going to resign? No, and I

can tell you why. I think that at a time like this, when the Tory party

is pulling themselves apart, when nobody has any idea with the country

ought to go next, the challenge for the Labour Party is to show some

leadership. And to be a centre of composure, to think about where we

are going, and I think we should be thinking about the nation first.

What is happening in your Shadow Cabinet? Why is this happening? I do

not really understand it. We had a Shadow Cabinet meeting on Friday and

there were lots of opportunities than for people to express what they

thought. I made it clear that the defence of UI have been working on

for the last 56 months would need to be redrafted. I would need to think

again about it. In light of what is happening? Yes, it has a big impact

on defence. It was disappointing for me but the important thing is we

remain unified as a party and focus on what is important. The important

thing is what are we going to do now. The pound is falling, look at

what is happening to share prices. We need to be calm, and we need to

show a bit of foresight and leadership. Focus. Now, or fall

times now, people think it is a good idea to go for a leadership

challenge? It is extraordinary. It seems that lots of your colleagues

in the Shadow Cabinet and even more in the parliamentary party, they

seem to be angry that there was not enough leadership during the

referendum campaign from Jeremy Corbyn, and they do not think that

Hilary Benn is a leader and they do not think he can take you to victory

in 2020. That is all coming from Hilary Benn given that he ran the

campaign. I'll so think that if Jeremy had been allowed, David

Cameron, if he had stepped aside and let Jeremy take a leadership role in

this campaign, I think we would have done better. In what way did David

Cameron stop Jeremy Corbyn? David Cameron made it all about him, about

his brilliant deal, getting onto the media all the time, always being

blue on blue. When I spoke to David Cameron during the referendum

campaign, he was complaining he was having to do all the heavy lifting.

He was not just complaining about the lack of support from the Labour

Party, but from the Tories as well. Where did he stop Jeremy Corbyn

making his mark? Jeremy made 30 speeches up and down the country.

There was very little space us to get inserted into that debate.

People criticise Jeremy for saying that he was only in favour of the

European Union, 7.5 out of ten. I think that was truthful and real,

and it reflected the views of lots of people in the country. Lots of

people will have voted to remain. Those on the fence would have

questioned whether they were in favour. Jeremy's voice was more

truthful. Does that mean he is a better leader than David Cameron? I

suspect it does. When did Jeremy Corbyn complain he was not been

allowed to do more? We were always complaining. I went to Birmingham

with half of the women from the Shadow Cabinet. We spoke to women in

workplaces and so on. What was the coverage we got? There was a little

clip, a film of us going into summer, and the voice-over being,

nobody knows what Labour says on the referendum. Nonsense. You can

complain you did not get the media coverage you wanted. That is true. I

do not remember Mr Corbyn rushing to accept one-on-one interviews. There

were plenty of offers. In the end, I think he did one on Sky News in the

evening. If he was champing at the bit to get it across, why did they

not agree to do more interviews and programmes like this? The truth is

that Jeremy had a straightforward response to the referendum. I think

he should have been given an opportunity to get that out more. If

he had been able to, that would have rung true with the country. I'll so

think the Jeremy was also elected less than a year ago and 60% of the

membership voted in his favour. Now is not the time for us to go for a

leadership challenge, this is nonsense. We have you here, arguing

your case, effectively as always. It is not true of all Labour people. I

think that Mr Watson has been to Glastonbury. I am not quite sure

what the silent disco is. There he is, the deputy leader of the Labour

Party. Would you rather be there with him or here with me? I would

always rather be with you. I knew you would say that. What would use

it to your colleagues in the Parliamentary Labour Party to face

this motion of no confidence that could be placed before the PLP

tomorrow night? I am told there could be a majority forehead. I do

not think there will be a motion of no confidence tomorrow night. They

could vote the next day? Or the week afterwards, depending on how you

interpret it. Could you lose? I think members of Parliament need to

look at what the country is calling out for. The country is calling out

for the Labour Party to step up and show an alternative. We must do that

in a unified way. There is not the time for internal fighting. It is

quite marketable we have a Prime Minister who has just resigned,

there will not be a new Prime Minister at least until the

beginning of October, if Liam Fox gets his way, it may not be until

November. And the Labour Party is in the middle of its own turmoil as

well. I have covered situations where one party has been in turmoil

and the other one has taken advantage, but you are now both in

turmoil. It is unprecedented? I agree, and the future is in hands.

It is up to us, what we decide to do in the next few days. I will urge my

colleagues to take a responsible view of this and think of the

country first. The country needs us to be there. You're right, the

Tories went into this, the two parts of the Tories, the Brexiteers went

in not knowing what would happen if we got the Leave vote, and the

government went in with no plan B. There is no plan at the moment, and

our country needs a party to step up and do that role. That is what we

should be doing. What do you say to those Labour supporters, not

members, but supporters and voters, in the heartlands of the North and

the Midlands, who did not follow your party's advise? They voted in

substantial numbers to leave. They do not think that this Labour Party

represents them. What do you say to them? One thing that came out

clearly from this Brexit vote, is that half the country feels that the

system does not help them. They are getting a raw deal, and whether that

is because they cannot get their kids housing, or because they are

having problems with their jobs and their terms and conditions, weather

data not get access to public services, all these things are

wrapped up in the vote. The tragedy is that we have answers to that

nationally, and if we have a decent government prepared to address those

issues, perhaps people would have a slightly different view. Now we have

to reach out and speak to them. We must not do what happened after the

Scottish referendum, when the Labour Party turned in on itself. We have

running out of time. Can you give me a one sentence inkling of how your

defence review might change? There is a question of how we defend

borders now. If the GDP goes, we're 2% of GDP being spent on defence.

What happens if GDP goes through the floor? Will have cuts? I also think

that the EU and Nato two sides of the same coin. International

relationships will change. A whole range of things will be affected.

Thank you very much, Emily Thornberry.

Now, as one union was broken with the vote on Thursday,

the fate of another came into sharp focus.

In Scotland, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon of the

SNP said the option of a second referendum

on independence was now very much back on the table after Scotland

voted by a significant margin in favour of

remaining within the EU, only for votes elsewhere

in Britain to swing the

Here she is speaking earlier on the Andrew

At this stage I am not prepared to accept that certain things are

inevitable. I have a job to do to protect Scotland and negotiate the

best way forward. I look on at what is happening at Westminster with a

sense of utter despair and a half of people across England and other

parts of the UK, as the vacuum of leadership in the Tories and Labour

develops. There is no vacuum of leadership in Scotland. As First

Minister I will do everything I possibly can to prevent Scotland

been taken out of the European Union, because the consequences of

allowing us to be so will be devastating.

Well, Scotland's not the only part of the

UK where there are calls for constitutional change

In Northern Ireland Sinn Fein have suggested that British

withdrawal from the EU has strengthened the case for

I'm joined now from Londonderry by the Deputy First Minister

of Northern Ireland, Martin

Welcome to the programme, Martin McGuinness. Thank you. First of all,

what makes you say that the 56% vote to remain as overwhelming? It is a

very clear vote by a majority of people in the North, which are made

up of unionists, nationalists and Republicans, who wished to remain in

Europe. I think that cannot be ignored, either by the British

government, the Irish government, or the powers that be at the European

Union. What we do need in the immediate future is an all Ireland

solution to the problem. That requires the attention of the

Taoiseach in particular. I was very disturbed over the last couple of

days, when the Taoiseach focused on how sympathetic the Irish government

would be to British government that was negotiating its way out of

Europe over the course of the two years. Rather he should have been

focusing on how the democratically expressed wishes of the majority of

people in the north, to remain in Europe, could be catered for. I

Foreign Minister on Friday and I Foreign Minister on Friday and I

have requested an urgent meeting with the Taoiseach on this matter.

Right, but to get back to this idea that there is an overwhelming

desire, following that vote to remain in Northern Ireland, to

remain in the EU, why would that translate to an overwhelming, to use

your word, to have a referendum on Irish unification? The border poll

was part of the Good Friday Agreement. It is something I think

you'd be conducted in a very civilised and cordial fashion, just

as the debate on Scottish independence was conducted in

Scotland. There is not an overwhelming desire, stated just

from the vote last Thursday, from what you're calling for? I did not

say that there was. What I did say was that I do believe that that

exercise is one that should be undertaken at some stage in the

future. The immediate focus, the immediate focus needs to be on how

we continue our relationship with the European Union? That is where my

focus is. That is where my focus is on that is why I think discussions

with the Taoiseach are urgent and require immediate attention, as the

discussions with the powers that be at the European Union are. When you

consider the position of Scotland, which is also overwhelmingly voted

to remain in Europe, there is a massive responsibility no given that

we have these two massive centres of population that want to remain in

Europe. The powers that be within the European Union need to take

account of the democratically expressed wishes of the people of

Scotland and Northern Ireland. That is to do with the relationship with

the European Union. Enda Kenny, the Irish Taoiseach, seemed some

distance from welcoming your demand for a border poll. He said, we have

more serious issues to deal with in the medium term and that is where

our focus lies. My focus lies on how we can continue

to maintain our relationship with the European Union. So you are not

against holding this border poll? No, we do believe there should be

one in the future. In the immediate future the focus needs to be on the

whole issue of how we can maintain our relationship with Europe, which

has been so beneficial over the course of the last number of

decades. Whenever you consider the dangers for us in terms of the

dangers to our ability to develop our economy, the dangers to the

prospect of border controls, which I think would represent a very serious

undermining of the Good Friday Agreement, the whole issue of

foreign direct investment which is now threatened by the decision to

pull out of Europe, particularly from Northern America. But you

cannot do that, can you, unless there was some sort of referendum on

Irish reunification. You cannot do that from within the UK, since the

UK has voted as a whole to leave. I'm saying there needs to be special

arrangements which take account of the democratically expressed wishes

of the people of Northern Ireland and the people of Scotland, who

wished to remain and maintain our contacts and ability to work with

very senior officials and governmental authorities within

Europe. So I think that from my perspective, although you are

focused on the issue of the border poll, the immediate task has to be

how the democratically expressed wishes of the people here in the

north of Ireland can be catered for in the context of these huge debates

which will consume over the course of the next number of months. Of

course we are very disturbed that the British Prime Minister has

clearly indicated that there will be no engagement with Europe on the

whole issue of article 50 until there is a new British Prime

Minister. Martin McGuinness, thank you. It is a

We now have Gloria De Piero's resignation letter, and a letter

from Margaret Hodge. We need to believe Jeremy

Corbyn should consider his position. When he did engage she was

half-hearted, and in the end of Labour Party members and voters

didn't know where the leader really stored. That is the latest from

there. We have reassembled just for a few minutes before we go to the

nations and regions our dream team panel. So we have a lame duck

government, the dysfunctional opposition, and we voted to leave

the EU. Anything else happening in politics today? It doesn't look like

these resignations are petering out. It is only about an hour since the

last one! I think Gloria De Piero is very significant because she was a

close ally of Tom Watson, it looks like it is picking up steam now. She

is one of those Labour MPs from the north. She had been in the media but

is one of those Labour MPs from the seemed to be firmly rooted in the

north, away from the Metropolitan chattering classes so that is

significant. Not from a privileged background. She is going, there is a

rumour Charlie Faulkner is also going, and he was always the bridge

between the moderates and the Corbyn supporters. You ask if anything else

is going on in politics at the moment, there is the potential

unravelling of the UK itself. In the moment, there is the potential

vacuum of leadership which has emerged since Friday morning, David

Cameron going, Jeremy Corbyn being weak in his position, the closest

thing I have seen in leadership is Nicola Sturgeon north of the border.

You may or disagree with her position but she has a plan. The

markets will be opening at 7am tomorrow here in London. The

sterling, the FTSE could take a knock. Doesn't the Prime Minister

now have to give a clear idea of where Britain goes now? Of the

beginning of the informal talks, the process. Even though he is on his

way out, isn't his duty to steady the ship? The biggest question is

where on earth is the Chancellor in all of this. He is responsible in

overseeing what will happen in the next few days in terms of the

economy. We have that dignified and next few days in terms of the

reassuring statement from Mark Carney, the governor of the Bank of

England on Friday morning. Since then, where is George Osborne. He is

nowhere to be seen, I find it extraordinary. It is no good to say,

I don't think, that he's busy talking behind the seems to the

people that matter. He should be showing some leadership. Maybe he's

sharing the same safe house is Theresa May, maybe they are holed up

together working out how to stop Boris Johnson as being the next

leader of the Tory party. Over the coming weeks there will be the

so-called ABBs, Anyone But Boris. They didn't keep out Jeremy Corbyn

so they may have a fight on their hands.

It's just gone 11.30, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland.

Drama hardly begins to describe the events of the past

It's yes to Brexit but nobody seems to know what happens next.

Scotland, along with Northern Ireland and London,

voted to remain, the rest of the UK voted to leave.

I've been speaking to the First Minister Nicola Sturgeon

And no switching, folks, I think you'll want to hear

what she has to say about Scotland possibly stopping Brexit.

David Cameron says Scotland should be involved in the Brexit

negotiations but will his successor be so accommodating?

I'll be asking the Scottish Secretary David Mundell.

Jeremy Corbyn loses Hilary Benn and half of his Shadow Cabinet

are said to be threatening to resign if he doesn't stand down.

I'll be asking the Shadow Scottish Secretary, well, is he still

Otto von Bismarck once famously remarked that man cannot control

the current of events, merely float with them and steer.

Well, as things stand, it looks like David Cameron has

proved this ancient adage wrong by creating the current,

steering the country onto the rocks then jumping ship,

leaving others to work out how and where this country heads next.

Only one thing looks certain now, for England and Wales that future

European influences are etched into Edinburgh 's Mac architecture. From

the Dutch ecclesiastical style of the Tron Kirk, the Italian

renaissance of George Herriot's school. The Spanish coast modernism

of the Scottish Parliament. In the spirit of the old Alliance Edinburgh

has long maintained strong links with Europe. Little wonder it was

Scotland's most remain city. Victoria is no voters were told

staying in the union was the only Victoria is no voters were told

way to remain in Europe and many also believe they had more in common

with the North of England and the Northern Isles but last week all

that changed. The total number of votes cast in favour of leave was 80

2000. England and Wales defied the pollsters and voted to leave while

Scotland voted to remain. Let June 23 go down in our history as our

Independence Day. The nation had a rude awakening on Friday morning but

as the refined implications of Brexit have become clear there is a

palpable sense of anger among many Scots. They are asking the southern

neighbours, what on earth have you done? I think there are going to be

very many people who looked not just that the result of the referendum

but at the tone of the European referendum debate and don't want to

be dragged either out of Europe against our will or dragged along

with this right wing tendency which is gaining momentum. The idea that

we were going to be happy being governed by Boris Johnson I think

will double the great many people in Scotland. The SNP election manifesto

was clear, if Scotland was taken outside the EU against its well

Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum on

independence. The First Minister hinted on Friday there may be other

options. I want to make it absolutely clear today that I intend

to take all possible steps and explore all options to get affect to

how people in Scotland voted. In other words, to secure our

continuing place in the EU and in the single market in particular.

Options short of Independence will have been discussed at yesterday's

Scottish Cabinet meeting. It is not clear what they might be. The UK

could follow the example of the kingdom of Denmark. While Denmark

itself remains part of the EU agreement voted to exit. And the

islands which are also part of the Danish realm are not part of the EU

either. Could something like this be possible here? The fact that the

leather precedent for art of a member state leaving means it is

possible. We also have the conversed, comic the unification of

Germany where part of an existing state now was admitted in the

unification process. Though, they'd is a certain amount of flexibility

and differentiate relationships we can point to other nothing that

exactly fits in the model we have right now. For supporters of

independence the way forward is clear. He pulled this morning

suggests support has soared to 59% up many of the main challenges

remain and they are additional ones, too. It is likely to become

independent but it is not certain because there are many obstacles in

the way of Scottish independence. The questions about public finances,

Scottish oil, that has not been resolved. The question of the pound

and what would be used if we were in out of the European Union. Another

point is the border, this would become the border of the European

Union, a very hard order between become the border of the European

England and Scotland and the whole point about independence in Europe

last time round is that in both countries within the European Union

you do not have to worry about the border. F1 stitching the union seems

complicated during the independence referendum, Grexit has just taken it

complicated during the independence to a whole new level.

Shortly before we came on air, I spoke to the First

If you do not mind, let's cut to the chase on this. People have heard you

say over the last few days and on the Andrew Marr rogue RAM, you do

not want to be in the position you find yourself in. Let's take this

idea that you have been floating that somehow or other Scotland could

stay in the European Union while Britain leaves. I'm interested just

what are you actually thinking about that? Can I just be very clean about

my position? Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay in the EU and

my job as First Minister is to death a way to effect the way Scotland

voted and avoid the damaging consequences of being taken out

against our will. I can not sit here and tell you definitely what is

possible and what is not, we had an unchartered territory and that has

never happened before in terms of the country trying to extricate

itself in the European Union nations within the member state wanting to

stay in. My job is to exhaust every possibility. At this with the

starting point not being independence but how do we protect

Scotland's position? If it transpires as we go through this

process that being independent as the on the way we can protect our

position, that is a debate, the on the way we can protect our

discussion and decision and the people of Scotland have a right to

have the option of taking. What are you exploring? One can easily

example Scotland being part of the Erasmus student programme with

England not being but Scotland being part of the single market if written

is not? What I will do all along is the open, upfront and honest with

the people of Scotland, with you the media, I am not going to say here

today two days after a situation I did not choose being thrust upon us

and say definitively what all these options are. What are you going to

explore? I want to keep Scotland in the European Union, in the position

we are just now and look at all options to try to achieve that. I am

not pretending that will be easy or straightforward. There are massive

complexity is along the way. It may be the only way we can protect our

position is to become an independent country and if we are at the

position of looking at that to another independence referendum that

is not simply a rerun of the last one. We are in completely different

circumstances. It would be a situation where we were looking at

the possibility of independence not to leave anywhere but to enable us

to stay. If we think back to 2014, I passionately believed independence

what's right for Scotland but many people saw it as a step into the

unknown versus the security and stability of the UK. That is not the

case any more. The UK we voted to stay in 2014 simply does not exist.

What we do now is the consequences of the UK extricating itself from

you will be damaging, socially, culturally, economically. My job is

to try to navigate a path through this for Scotland which protects our

interests as well as we possibly can and to do that by unifying people in

Scotland are as much as possible. We can talk a bit more about the

independence referendum any minute but I want to come back to this

idea. You seem to be saying your ambition and what you are trying to

explore is the possibility of Scotland remaining a member of the

European Union even though Britain has voted to get out? Hordern, if I

was sitting here as First Minister in the face of the vote that was

taken on Thursday in Scotland I should not be First Minister. Do say

it is OK we are dragged about Europe against our will. In fact it is not

usual to see a politician or a leader say. I am not sitting here

with all the answers about what might be possible or don't not be

possible. We had an completely unchartered territory. The two

certainties we have, firstly as First Minister I have an absolute

duty to seek to give effect to what people in Scotland voted for on

Thursday and secondly the UK as was, the UK Scotland voted to stay in in

2014 does not exist any more. I understand that but what you are

arguing for and what your ambitions are, I can understand why you are

say death given the vote here. It is not just that this might be

difficult given the government of the United Kingdom but what you are

suggesting would probably need treaty changes to the European

Union? The European Union is already going into unchartered territory

were found thinkable things ahead of it because of the UK wide vote on

Thursday. What I am trying to do is achieve some stability for Scotland

and give effect to what we voted for. Over the days, weeks and months

to come I am going to discuss these options with the European Union 's,

other member states and seek to find a way forward. It may well be beyond

the baby can protect position in the European Union as if we chose to

become independent. If that is the we are in your will be complexity is

that as a country we have do think our way through and make a decision

on the back of that. I am not prepared as First Minister to simply

sit back and shrug our shoulders and say Scotland has put up with all the

pain that comes the decision the UK took. To be clear, what you are

going to explore and your ambition immediately is to look to see if

going to explore and your ambition there is a way Scotland can stay

part of the UK, stay part of the single market and keep free movement

of Labour? Yes? I am going to explore all options. In these

moments of crisis you have two hold onto some principle. The principle I

hold onto as I try to navigate the country through a very difficult

situation that was not about choosing lawmaking is this one. What

is in our best interests and how do we give effect to what Scotland

voted for? Just a few days after this result I am not going to sit

here and say that is of the table or that is on the table. My ambition is

for Scotland to stay within the European Union. With the single

market and free movement of Labour? Absolutely, Scotland voted to

maintain the situation we have just now. You want to do that without

Scotland leaving the UK? Let's look at all options. I am realistic and

not naive in this. It may well be that the only way of doing that we

be to become independent and if that is the case then, as a country, we

have to decide if that will be the best option. The Olive precedent

people can think of is dreamland. Are you thinking of being a reverse

Greenland? It is uncharted territory and I keep hearing people saying the

rules of what happens now is this and this would not be allowed but

this process has never been done before. They are no rules, no

precedent. What would happen from here on in is they would be a

process of negotiation. My job as First Minister of Scotland, a

country that has voted to stay in is to try and get the outcome for

Scotland that is best. That is what I will try to do. What is happening

at Westminster, the complete vacuum of leadership, it is shameful. I am

determined Scotland will be led with purpose. In your initial reaction on

Friday you use language about what you would do which would to some

extent depend on the messages you were getting back from the European

Union. What was that link to say? Are you looking for a message from

the European Union saying we do not want Scotland to leave? Of course we

have to have that discussion with the European Union. That will take

time to do. The judgments I make and put forward to Scotland which are in

my judgment the best way forward well, to some extent, flow from what

the reaction in Europe is. It comes back to this. I did not choose this

situation. It is an horrendous situation for the UK to be in but

people in the England had the right to vote the way they did. But I have

got to protect this country and I would not be the First Minister of

Scotland if I just shrugged my shoulders and said it does not

matter how we voted, we are going to go through this situation of an

dragged out of Europe against our will.

Rarely are at the moment, this has to be, or this has to be, we are in

uncharted territory and I do think, and I said this on Friday, looking

at this at any angle, they would have to be in a position to have

that referendum within that time still, that is essential. Should

Scotland vote for independence still, that is essential. Should

within the timescale, do you know Verheijen government giving any

legal advice as to what the position of Scotland would be? Would we then

just be part of Brexit and reapply to the European Union? Would we not

bleed? In terms of what applies within Article 50, what you have is

what Article 50 says to you. What happens in terms of how that will be

given effect to as a matter of negotiation. My position in the

circumstances would be that Scotland is not believe the EU, we stay. This

circumstances would be that Scotland is your completely changed set of

circumstances. What we are potentially looking at independence

to do is to stay, not to beef up but to stay. But you have not had any

messages from the European Union itself? Telling you that would be

possible? These are discussions and questions that we have to take

forward. But if we voted in a referendum for independence whether

or not they would stay in the EU have to reapply, you would have to

tell us that you don't know at the moment? Frommy common-sense

perspective, why on earth would it be in the interest of the European

Union to say to part of a member state that democratically had

decided that it wanted to stay and wanted to be independent in order to

stay to say that it had to leave in order to come back in? Because we

are talking about European treaties, not common-sense! Yes, you look at

the world today at Westminster in particular and you do not see a lot

of sense, I would accept that. But one challenge I have is to bring

common-sense to a situation that is otherwise in turmoil. If you are

going to have indyref 2, as it has been called, is it the case that the

polls still were trumping Brexit, will you hold back from having it?

This is what I judged in the best interests to be for Scotland. If I

judge for Scotland it is the best interests to be for Scotland. If I

interests by staying in the European Union and that that can only be

delivered by an independence referendum, I have a job to convince

delivered by an independence people. Would you hold a referendum

even the polls show that you would not win it? If I believed it to be

in the interests of Scotland, I would try and persuade people.

Coming back to the politics of this, you cannot afford to lose another

one. Gordon, I cannot afford... That is looking at it from my now hope

little interest as leader of the SNP. I do not want to sound Syed

Kamall yes or pie is here and I hope that is not do this by what I killed

you, but I will not make judgments over the period ahead as to what is

right for me as leader of the SNP or as a party. I am First Minister of

Scotland and I must make judgments about what is in the best interests

of Scotland. If I reach a point over the next few months that says the

only way I believe we can protect Scotland's economic, social

interests is to become independent, then I have a duty to say that to

the people of Scotland and try and bring Scotland together behind that.

That is perhaps the responsibility of leadership here. Scotland at the

moment needs to have an honest conversation every step of the way.

This is a situation not of our conversation every step of the way.

choosing, every simply stand back and allow that to happen, the

economic consequences, the social, cultural, the one sequences for our

place in the world, they will beget is taking. I have a duty to find a

different path forward, and I will try to do that. There's not another

big constitutional as you do will have to face the fact that... I have

a document your written by the House of Lords and other important legal

people with wigs and of Lords and other important legal

they are saying that Scotland would have to agree, the Scottish

Parliament must agree, to carpets of European legislation. There is an

issue here. People won't understand that you say you want to have

another independence referendum but the Scottish Parliament was to try

to legally block Britain leaving the European Union, there is a

democratic issue there, we are part of the UK, there has been a

democratic vote. But this is not about the Scottish Parliament trying

to put England, it is about taking a decision as to the best interests of

Scotland. I recognise absolutely love the complexities that have been

thrown up by thirsty's vote, but I did not create these and I have to

deal with the reality that we are in. They issued you speak of is

whether they would have to be a legislative motion for the

legislation that extricate the UK from the European Union. From a

logical perspective I find it hard to believe that would not be that

requirement, I suspect UK Government would take a very different view on

that and they will have to see where that discussion up. We have had

nowhere near as as big and controversial issues as this one but

we have had discussions in recent pass over the trade union poll and

legislation over weeping the Human Rights Act and similar things. Would

you consider asking the Scottish Parliament not to back such emotion?

Of course. Did you say, of course? Yes, the Scottish Parliament was to

judge this on the basis of what is right for Scotland, the option of

saying we will not vote for something that is against Scotland's

interest, of course that must be on the table. Even regarding that block

of Britain leaving Europe? Do not get me wrong, I care about the rest

of the duty, eye care about England, that is why I am upset with this

decision that has been taken. But my job as First Minister and the job of

the Scottish Parliament is to judge these things in the interests of the

people of Scotland. But can you imagine the fury of people in

Britain if you stop them leaving Europe? I can, but I have to match

that with the people of Scotland was Matt anger at being taken out of

Europe against their will. I have to navigate the best way forward. I am

not pretending any of these options are easy. I will try to do it to the

best of my ability to the interests of the people that I am elected to

serve uppermost in my mind. Thank you very much indeed, First

Minister, Nicola Sturgeon. That was Nicola Sturgeon speaking to

me earlier. Listening to that and with me now

is the Scottish Secretary, Let us begin with this idea of a

second independence referendum, as I understand it, it would be within

the gift of the British government to see whether that referendum could

happen. Do you think your government would or should block it?

There are two issues around a future would or should block it?

independence referendum, one is whether it could happen. Really it

could, but there are process issues. The Big Issue is whether it should

happen. I do not believe it should, the people of Scotland, the 2

million who voted to remain in the UK in September 2014 are very clear