Browse content similar to 10/07/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
Jeremy Corbyn will be challenged for the Labour Party leadership | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
by his former shadow cabinet colleague, Angela Eagle. | :00:42. | :00:45. | |
So what makes her so sure she can win? | :00:46. | :00:47. | |
She's the favoured candidate of Tory MPs, but will Theresa May win over | :00:48. | :00:54. | |
the party's grassroots to become the next Prime Minister? | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
And if she makes it to Number 10, what will her premiership be like? | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
We'll hear from May-supporter, Chris Grayling. | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
And after two tumultuous weeks following the referendum result, | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
a leading Remain campaign insider gives us her candid account | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland, I'll be talking to former | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
Also on the programme, coming to terms with Brexonomics. | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
Golden opportunity or economic meltdown? | :01:21. | :01:39. | |
And with me - Janan Ganesh, Helen Lewis and Isabel Oakeshott to | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
help guide us through the political maelstrom - they'll be tweeting | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
throughout the programme using the hashtag #bbcsp. | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
The battle to take over from David Cameron as Conservative Party | :01:53. | :01:55. | |
leader and Prime Minister has rapidly moved into its final phase | :01:56. | :01:57. | |
- a vote of Conservative Party members who must choose | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
between the Home Secretary and remain supporter Theresa May, | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
and the business minister and Leave campaigner Andrea Leadsom. | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
Speaking at the launch of her campaign, Theresa May said | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
she wanted to unite the Conservative Party - and the country. | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
If ever there was a time for a Prime Minister who is ready | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
and able to do the job from day one, this is it. | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
We have immediate work to do, to restore political stability | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
To bring together the party and the country. | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
And to negotiate a sensible and orderly departure | :02:29. | :02:30. | |
But more than that, we have a mission to make Britain | :02:31. | :02:37. | |
a country that works, not for the privileged and not | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
for the few, but for every one of our citizens. | :02:41. | :02:47. | |
I've been joined by the leader of the commons, Chris Grayling, | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
who was one of four cabinet ministers to campaign to leave | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
the EU but who is now supporting Theresa May - | :02:53. | :02:55. | |
Why are you supporting Mrs May as a Leaver? The key thing is having a | :02:56. | :03:09. | |
person who is right for the job. David Cameron chose to step aside, I | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
regret that. We need someone to step into his shoes in whom I have | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
confidence that they will deliver Brexit. I have known Theresa for a | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
long time. She is a determined politician. Having got a mandate | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
from the public to deliver Brexit, she will do that. What assurances | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
have you sought from her? I have sought assurances that she means | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
Brexit is Brexit. The country has spoken. The country has given us a | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
clear direction to follow. The next Prime Minister has to follow that | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
Matt and I am confident that Theresa May is committed to that. But Brexit | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
can mean one of several things. They're of a. So what do you say to | :03:51. | :03:58. | |
Tory twos, who were on your side, that she will water down the Brexit | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
terms? That is not right. It is not just me, we have a range of Tory | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
Leavers who are backing her, because we think she has the weight and | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
experience to deliver. But I am not sure what assurances you have got | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
that she will deliver as you would want her to. For example, can you | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
guarantee to our viewers that she will not settle for a British | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
version of Norway's relationship with the EU, or Switzerland's | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
relationship? We have said all along that we want a UK solution. It is | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
not about trying to replicate someone else. We have a clear | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
mandate to end the principle of unfettered free movement in the UK | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
from elsewhere in the European Union. We saw Lily 200,000 people | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
arrive in the UK last year. The British public want that to change. | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
Theresa May palmist "Control of free movement. That needn't be the same | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
as the end of free movement. What does she mean? That is what we | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
campaigned on for four and a half months, taking back control. What I | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
find unacceptable is that we cannot control the flow of people into the | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
country. There will be times when we need to recruit particular skills | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
and we need to allow people to move within businesses. We need to have a | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
managed system. It is all about control. It is about our government | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
being able to decide when, how and where the number of people who can | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
come and live and work in the UK. But for some EU citizens, would | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
there still be an automatic right to compare? It will depend on what our | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
rules are. The whole point is that it is about control. At the moment, | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
we cannot set limits on the number of people who live and work here. | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
The clear mandate from the British public, something that Theresa | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
recognised and said so in her opening speech last week we have to | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
take back control of our migration. But we don't know what that means. | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
It means our parliament being able to set limits on the number of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
people who can live and work here. What sort of limits? That will be | :06:13. | :06:18. | |
decided depending on whether we have skills needs, housing shortages and | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
circumstances. None of us think we will erect barricades at Dover and | :06:23. | :06:25. | |
nobody can ever live and work in the UK. But it is fundamental that | :06:26. | :06:32. | |
ultimate control should reside with our government. Why do you trust has | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
me on free movement when after six years at the Home Office, she | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
couldn't even get non-EU debt migration below 100,000, which was | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
the promise, never mind overall net migration? First of all, we spent | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
five of those six years in coalition with the Liberal Democrats. She was | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
not stopped from doing anything. We have just passed our first | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
conservative only immigration act that will allow us to close the bank | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
accounts and taking away the driving licences of people who overstate. | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
One of the problems is people who come here legitimately for a short | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
time, but never go. But she was so far out. Net migration was three | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
times the target she agreed to six years ago. Why would you trust her | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
to get it right when so far, she's got it wrong? If you look at the | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
flow of migrants from inside the European Union, she had no ability | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
to control that. But she has not controlled those from outside. We | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
have just passed our first Conservative only immigration act. | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
There have been limits to what we could do in coalition. As Theresa | :07:39. | :07:44. | |
May herself said the other day, it is difficult because people are | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
constantly looking for new ways around our system. I believe the | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
acts we past two months ago will make a difference. Were our borders | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
safer under Mrs May than they were in 2010? Our borders are safe in | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
terms of counterterrorism. What has she done to make us safer? A huge | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
amount has been done to protect our borders. In Calais, we now have a | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
much better system of border control. We have been able to resist | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
enormous pressure from people who want to come in illegally. What has | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
she done to make British borders safer? She'd traduced new measures | :08:21. | :08:28. | |
on the immigration front -- introduced new measures. She | :08:29. | :08:30. | |
negotiated international agreements so that Abu Qatada was ported to | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
Jordan. In my view, she has done a huge amount to improve the security | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
services. As Home Secretary, she is responsible for MI5. They have done | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
a fantastic job protecting us. Will she rule out a second referendum? | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
There is no question of a second referendum. One of her supporters, | :08:53. | :08:57. | |
Dominic Grieve, says people can change their minds. We are all clear | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
that there is not going to be a second referendum. We can't just say | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
to the British public, we don't like what you said, so we are going to | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
ask again. Those of us who campaigned for Leave would not serve | :09:09. | :09:14. | |
in a government that chucked away the first result and decided to have | :09:15. | :09:22. | |
another go. Speaking of the campaign, do you regard the promises | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
vote leaves made during the referendum as sacrosanct? I said to | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
you that a campaign group can only make recommendations. But you made a | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
number of promises. You promised explicitly that the status of EU | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
citizens already here would not change. Mrs May is not promising | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
that. I cannot conceive of a situation where we want to end the | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
rights of EU citizens who are here to not remain. There are always | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
individual circumstances... But she is talking about them being a | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
bargaining chip. You said during the campaign, there will be no change | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
for EU citizens already lawfully resident in the UK. Mrs May is not | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
saying that. For those who have been more than five years in the UK, that | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
is legally the case. But we want to make sure we can protect our own | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
citizens in other EU countries. It is right that a UK Government should | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
have its own system. But during the campaign, you never said there will | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
be no change to EU citizens here, provided the EU looks after our | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
citizens over there. That was never a condition. Now are you saying it | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
is? I don't think there will be any change on either side. Everyone will | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
take a grown-up approach might it would be too damaging to do | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
otherwise. But we must look after the interests of our own citizens. | :10:46. | :10:52. | |
So why doesn't she say that? She says she doesn't want to agree | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
anything until she sees how they treat our citizens. Are you | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
comfortable with the line she has taken? The only people who support | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
her on this are the BNP. She has said what I have said. I am | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
expecting all it is except those who have committed criminal offences to | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
be able to stay -- all EU citizens. That is right and proper, but we | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
must make sure we can look after the rights of new cases and is. Has Mrs | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
May guaranteed to you that we will be out of the EU by the next general | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
election? She has said we will trigger article 50 around the end of | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
this year. There is then a two-year time frame and the next general | :11:36. | :11:39. | |
election is 2020. So I can't see any circumstance in which we would not | :11:40. | :11:46. | |
leave by then. Gone by 2020. Chris Grayling, thank you. | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
After a protracted campaign of resignations, a massive vote | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
of no confidence from his MPs, and an attempt by his deputy | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
to negotiate some sort of compromise deal with the unions, | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
it's now clear the Jeremy Corbyn will face a leadership challenge. | :11:58. | :12:05. | |
Some suspected it might fizzle out, but Angela Eagle has finally | :12:06. | :12:11. | |
announced she will go for the top job after all, saying she wants to | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
explain her vision for the country. It comes after Labour's deputy | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
leader Tom Watson called off a debate over Jeremy Corbyn's future, | :12:24. | :12:25. | |
saying there was no realistic prospect of reaching a compromise | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
because of this to Corbyn's refusal to stand down. That provoked an | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
angry response from Unite leader Len McCluskey, who said Tom Watson's | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
actions today can only look like an act of sabotage, fraught with peril | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
for the future of the Labour Party. So what happens now? Angela Eagle | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
needs to get the backing of 20% of MPs and MEPs. The magic and Amber is | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
currently 51. There is also the prospect of another senior Labour | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
figure like Owen Smith throwing his hat into the ring. The big question | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
remains over whether Jeremy Corbyn automatically gets onto the ballot, | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
or whether he needs to get 51 nominations himself, a difficult | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
task, given that the Labour leader lost the vote of no-confidence among | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
his MPs by 172 votes to 40. But if he does get on the ballot paper, it | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
is Angela Eagle who has the difficult job. Over a quarter of a | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
million people voted for Mr Corbyn in the last Labour leadership | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
election. Nearly 60% of the vote. Since the EU referendum, nearly | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
130,000 people have joined the Labour Party. But it is unclear how | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
many of them want to help or hinder Jeremy Corbyn's leadership. | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
Jeremy Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr programme | :13:42. | :13:42. | |
a little earlier on BBC One - and was in no mood | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Why time-limit a leadership when I've been elected | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
by a very large number of members and supporters | :13:50. | :13:51. | |
an election somewhere results in a different leader, | :13:52. | :13:59. | |
But I would be irresponsible if I walked away | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
from a mandate that I was given and a responsibility I was given. | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
I ask colleagues to respect that as well. | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
Why are you challenging Jeremy Corbyn for the Labour leadership? I | :14:10. | :14:22. | |
think it's clear that he has lost the confidence of MPs in the | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
parliamentary party. Tom Watson, Howard deputy leader, who has his | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
own mandate Rosie Winterton, the Chief Whip, John Quire, the chair of | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
the Parliamentary Labour Party and a friend of Jeremy's, have been going | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
to try to say to him that he needs the confidence of the Parliamentary | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
party to continue. He's not listening. You can't leave behind an | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
office door. Maybe he is not listening because he has a huge | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
mandate from the party membership. As Labour leader, he has won every | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
by-election and he has won the London mayoral election, the largest | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
party in the local governor elections. Why wouldn't he carry on? | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
We lost seats in the local government elections when we have a | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
Conservative government. We should be doing better. Polling shows that | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
we are 7% behind the Conservatives, even after all the tumult they have | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
been through and more importantly, we lost the EU referendum. | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
That was not his fault. No, but he wasn't connecting with Labour voters | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
and he did not put the argument across, and so I think we need a | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
strengthened Labour Party and an opposition which can unite so we can | :15:37. | :15:43. | |
heal the country. Unfortunately I don't think Jeremy Corbyn can do | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
that job. Other than Trident, what are the major policy differences? | :15:47. | :15:55. | |
I'm on the left, any party IDs will be anti-austerity, what has happened | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
in our heartlands, they have been hit by six years of Conservative | :16:01. | :16:05. | |
cuts -- any party I lead. That is Jeremy Corbyn, that is his position, | :16:06. | :16:14. | |
as well, what are the differences? I want to be a strong united | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
opposition to get into government. Jeremy was asked in that interview | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
three times whether he thought he could win a general election and he | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
did not say yes. For our supporters and for the people we came into | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
politics to represent, we need a Labour Party that can position | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
itself as a strong united opposition and win a general election. In your | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
view that is having a leader as a winner, but what are the major | :16:40. | :16:45. | |
policy differences? I don't think Jeremy has managed to get across a | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
strategy for winning. I'm on the left and my politics came out of | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
what happened when I was growing up when my parents, they were prevented | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
from fulfilling their opportunities because we had Labour governments I | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
was able to fulfil mind, and I want a Labour Party that can deliver | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
that. Jeremy does not talk about that. We will move on. He is the | :17:12. | :17:18. | |
incumbent leader, should he not be on the ballot against you as a | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
right? The Labour Party rules and the way it is done, and Jeremy | :17:21. | :17:38. | |
Chardy know this, Tony Benn challenged Neil Kinnock in 1988 -- | :17:39. | :17:48. | |
Jeremy should know this. It is not clear he had to do this. Neil | :17:49. | :17:51. | |
Kinnock can't remember if he had to do this, or whether he did it to | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
show the strength. Putting aside the roles, most people watching this | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
programme, not just Jeremy Corbyn fans, they will find it strange that | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
the man who won the leadership fairly and decisively, now | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
challenged by you, is not automatically allowed to defend his | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
title? That is not clear from the Labour Party rules, the National | :18:15. | :18:16. | |
executive committee will make a decision on that. Anyone who aspires | :18:17. | :18:22. | |
to lead the Parliamentary party who can't get 51 members, 20% of the | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
Parliamentary party, to back them, they are not going to be able to do | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
the job properly and we are in challenging times, the Brexit vote, | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
a government which has gone missing in action. We need a strong lead | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
from the Labour Party if we are going to protect our communities who | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
are going to be the hardest hit. Nothing of that lead is coming from | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
Jeremy at the moment. You are the self-styled party of fairness, don't | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
you think it will offend against natural justice against most | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
people's idea of fairness if the incumbent who is challenged by you | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
is not allowed to fight you in an election? Work that seem incredible? | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
Forget the rules, just offends against fairness. I don't know what | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
the outcome is going to be of the decision-making process. I'm ready | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
to fight a leadership challenge and have debates about the future of our | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
party with anyone, Jeremy or anyone else who seeks to stand. Len | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
McCluskey, the most important person in the Labour Party, perhaps. Not | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
say that. I have a lot of respect him, but that is a big perhaps. He | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
says keeping Jeremy Corbyn of the ballot would cause lasting division | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
in the party. It would. This is not about the Labour Party being split, | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
this is about it being an effective and united opposition to make our | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
democracy work so we can challenge is Conservative government which has | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
done such damage with the Brexit vote. I want to say that if you | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
think we should have a strong and effective Labour Party and a strong | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
democracy, challenging the Conservatives, join the Labour Party | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
now. Do it today, you can do it online. 130,000 new members have | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
joined Labour since the referendum. Who are they? The Labour Party | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
nationally knows who they are. Have they been vetted? I have no idea at | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
what the Labour Party office are doing about the new members. But it | :20:35. | :20:40. | |
is important that people who think that we need a strong opposition, | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
jaundiced battle now, joined the Labour Party, make us stronger -- | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
join this battle now. The 130,000 people who have joined already, they | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
should be allowed to vote? That is a matter for the National if sect of | :20:58. | :20:59. | |
committee to decide, they were in the past. -- National executive | :21:00. | :21:05. | |
committee. There is no point in them joining if they can't. We opened up | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
the ?3 membership which was a feature the last campaign. 150,000 | :21:12. | :21:19. | |
people are going to be picking the next Conservative Prime Minister, we | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
have had nearly that number joining in the last week. Jeremy Corbyn | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
would say he won by over 235,000 voting for him. You expect to be the | :21:29. | :21:33. | |
only challenger? I have no idea. What about Owen Smith? We have | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
spoken, but not recently, I've got no idea, I'm concentrating on | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
launching my campaign which I will be doing tomorrow. It would be | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
absurd for you and Owen Smith or someone else from the middle of the | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
party, the moderate left, to split the anti-Corbyn vote? We have got to | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
get on with doing our planning and see what happens in the future. I'm | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
concentrating on getting my campaign up and running, launching it | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
tomorrow, and joining a battle to have a stronger and united Labour | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
Party which can give hope back to our country. You voted for the Iraq | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
war. Do you regret that? I do, and if I had known what I know now, I | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
would not have supported it. The important thing from the Chilcot | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Report is that we learn the lessons of that so those mistakes can never | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
be made again in the future. John Prescott this morning, he also voted | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
for it, he says he now regards the war as illegal. Chilcot has not said | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
that. I'm asking you. It is important that we learn the lessons. | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
Do you think it was illegal? The evidence at the time and the | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
Attorney General's opinion at the time was not to that effect and it | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
is no good trying to second-guess what happened subsequently. We need | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
to learn the lessons and we need to make sure that if anything like that | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
happens in the future we have more robust ways of testing these | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
assertions, but I also think we have a country divided at the moment. You | :23:13. | :23:17. | |
have said that. Very uncertain about the future. You have said that. We | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
have got to address those problems. I understand that. But forgive me, | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
we have not got much time, they will be a motion before Parliament next | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
week holding Tony Blair for contempt of Parliament because of Iraq, how | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
will you vote? I have not seen the motion yet. We have got to make | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
certain that we don't spend our time in Parliament exacting revenge and I | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
think Tony Blair has been put rightly through the mill about the | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
decisions he took, the Chilcot Report did that, and I think we | :23:52. | :23:56. | |
should... We would be far better at learning the lessons and making | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
certain that we don't fall into the same mistakes if God forbid they | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
should be a future occasion where these decisions are made. -- there. | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
Final question, you talk about uniting Labour and the country, | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
taking on the Tories, but if you lose and Jeremy Corbyn wins or the | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
reverse, isn't there a clear indication that your party could be | :24:21. | :24:23. | |
heading for a serious schism? Either way. We need to heal the party under | :24:24. | :24:30. | |
effective leadership, so we can have a chance of winning the general | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
election which might come much sooner than we all think. And that | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
is my main aim with launching this leadership campaign. If he wins, you | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
will accept the result? You have to accept the result of any... You | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
would go back into the Shadow Cabinet? You have to accept the | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
result of any democratic process but I'm focused on winning this and I'm | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
not going to speculate about what happens afterwards. Angela Eagle, | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
busy summer head, thank you. It's clear the battle inside Labour | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
is about to get nasty - in the last hour, the MP | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
who initiated the vote of no confidence in Jeremy Corbyn, | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
Margaret Hodge, had this to say I'm beginning to think he's | :25:14. | :25:15. | |
actually a devious man, who is more concerned | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
with destroying the Labour Party than he is with creating a force | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
that can win an election in such difficult times and which | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
will unite the party. There we are. We have heard from | :25:27. | :25:40. | |
Chris Grayling and Angela Eagle and Jeremy Corbyn this morning. Helen, | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
whatever the outcome, it looks like this ends badly for Labour. It is | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
very interesting. In the new statesman we did an issue about | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
whether Labour should split, and we said, no, but are now talking to | :25:58. | :26:04. | |
Labour MPs who are openly talking about this, people who are tribally | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
Labour and are not metropolitan, they are saying this cannot be sewn | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
back together. The big question, if Jeremy Corbyn gets on the ballot and | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
gets 50 MPs, I think he will win, but if he doesn't get on, that | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
becomes a case of his faction splitting off, so the battle is... | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
Everyone is imagining a split, but it is who gets left with custody of | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
the party. Control of the Labour brand, which is powerful. The union | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
funding is on a downward slope, already, the trade union is going to | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
reduce that further, Labour have had very little success with big donors | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
under Jeremy Corbyn. There is a fundamental force at work. The | :26:47. | :26:52. | |
party's grassroots once a different Labour Parliamentary party and the | :26:53. | :26:54. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party would like a different grassroots. One or | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
the other has to go its own way. You can't reconcile them. The texture of | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
the grassroots has changed in the past year, since the party was | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
opened up by Ed Miliband to new members. It might be changing in the | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
other direction even as we speak 130,000 new members since June, the | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
equivalent of the size of the Tory party, it is possible the bulk of | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
those people are people that might be, since the referendum campaign, | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
might want a party that is moderate. We don't know that. Angela Eagle is | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
taking a punt on the idea that those are relatively centrist voters, but | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
what I'd take from her and Owen Smith, is not a massive amount of | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
enthusiasm for running for this big ship, they don't radiate glee at the | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
prospect of becoming leader, so I wonder if the idea is to have an | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
interim leader who is moderate and then before 2020 and onto someone | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
who they think can win a general election. It is a big part on her | :27:54. | :28:01. | |
part. She sounded so miserable. -- punt. She sounded very depressed | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
about the idea of launching aided ship contest and that is because | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
there is no resolution to this. -- launching a leadership contest. If | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
she wins it is a pyrrhic victory, but if she loses, it won't be | :28:17. | :28:22. | |
resolved, and it feels like it will not be resolved until the next | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
general election, when the public and determine what kind of Labour | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
MPs they both like to fight for that election. It could be a bloodbath. | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
Last year it was quite lively, and this year, there might be a lot of | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
screaming at the Labour Party conference. It would be worth the | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
price of admission to both party conferences this autumn. | :28:46. | :28:53. | |
The referendum result came as a shock to many, not least those | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
Lucy Thomas was deputy director of Britain Stronger In. | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
In an exclusive for the Sunday Politics, she talks to fellow | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
campaign insiders about how the referendum was lost. | :29:03. | :29:04. | |
We are absolutely clear now that there is no way | :29:05. | :29:06. | |
Right up until the end, we thought Remain could win. | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
I'm Lucy Thomas, and I was deputy director of that campaign, | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
and one of those that was there from the beginning. | :29:18. | :29:19. | |
This is the story of what we did and why, | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
but why, in the end, it wasn't enough. | :29:22. | :29:24. | |
So let's go back to where it started. | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
We launched Britain Stronger In Europe on a cold October morning | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
Cue the usual jokes about our organisation. | :29:31. | :29:39. | |
We set out to persuade people that Britain was stronger, | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
safer and better off in Europe than we would be out on our own, | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
and that leaving was a leap in the dark, a risk | :29:48. | :29:49. | |
As a nation of Eurosceptics, we always knew it would be tough, | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
but I'm not sure we were prepared for what the early research showed. | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
When we presented that and we discussed it | :30:00. | :30:01. | |
with you and the team, I think everybody sort | :30:02. | :30:03. | |
God, this is going to be harder than we thought. | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
So we built a campaign based on numbers. | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
It's the economy, stupid, and it had been proven to work | :30:12. | :30:13. | |
in the Scottish referendum and the general election. | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
One of the reasons why some of the specific warnings | :30:18. | :30:26. | |
would have bounced off people was because it sounded | :30:27. | :30:28. | |
like scaremongering, because it wasn't evidence. | :30:29. | :30:30. | |
It was just saying, if we vote to leave, | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
it will cost this many jobs or this much growth | :30:34. | :30:35. | |
And people said they were crying out to hear from the experts. | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
to economists, scientists to defence chiefs, they all spoke | :30:43. | :30:46. | |
for themselves, and the weight of expert opinion was overwhelming. | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
if the UK was to leave the European Union. | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
Material slowdown in growth, notable increase in inflation. | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
In a sense, we were the victims of our own success in the early | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
part of the campaign, because we landed our economic | :31:06. | :31:07. | |
We pushed the Leave campaign from Norway to Canada to Albania, | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
and then finally pushed them entirely off the single market. | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
Of course, what it meant was that that was the moment | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
Nigel Farage's approach to this referendum, and to make it | :31:22. | :31:24. | |
Imagine what will happen to public services... | :31:25. | :31:31. | |
When I first saw their PPB, the one with all the arrows | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
implying that millions of people from all sorts of countries | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
including Turkey and possibly other countries that aren't in the EU | :31:39. | :31:41. | |
are going to come and move to Britain, and I showed | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
that to focus groups, it was very powerful, | :31:45. | :31:47. | |
because it captured the anxiety and fear and emotion | :31:48. | :31:51. | |
people have at the prospect of being overwhelmed | :31:52. | :31:54. | |
and these are all terms I would hear in the focus groups. | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
and the literature that was used off the back of it was very powerful. | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
I also knew, of course, that it was purposefully choosing | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
So we always knew that immigration was a problem, | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
around this table, that lots of the discussions were heard. | :32:16. | :32:26. | |
Some wondered, was there more we could do to get EU leaders | :32:27. | :32:28. | |
to show more flexibility on free movement, maybe? | :32:29. | :32:30. | |
But to others, that meant fighting the rest of the campaign | :32:31. | :32:33. | |
on immigration, when we needed for it to be back on the economy. | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
If you could solve the problem of free movement, it would have been | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
If you can't solve the problem of immigration, moving | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
on to immigration might make things worse, not better. | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
But given what we did know, it made sense to stick to the economy. | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
But it became clear that for some people, | :32:56. | :32:57. | |
that economic risk didn't mean anything. | :32:58. | :32:59. | |
I spoke to one man in my constituency who was out one day, | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
He was voting to leave because of all those concerns | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
"I understand your concerns about that. | :33:09. | :33:16. | |
What do you think about the argument that leaving would be | :33:17. | :33:18. | |
he said, "What do I care about the economy? | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
There are lots of people in Britain who do feel passed over, | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
They don't see what the future could hold for them or their children, | :33:29. | :33:32. | |
This referendum was a chance to attach that anger to the EU. | :33:33. | :33:39. | |
Shouldn't Labour have been able to reach out to those voters? | :33:40. | :33:46. | |
The brutal truth is that the leader of the Labour Party did not | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
campaign with authenticity, passion, conviction | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
He said he was for Remain, but it was on quite a narrow basis, | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
in terms of what the broader argument could be. | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
Polling took place during the campaign that showed half | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
that our official position was for Remain. | :34:15. | :34:20. | |
So I think more could have been done, yes. | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
And whether it was true or not, the Leave campaign was determined | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
The power of the 350 million a week can't be overstated. | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
In focus groups, it is quite unusual for floating voters who aren't | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
interested in politics to have internalised a campaign fact | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
or number so that it comes out spontaneously, and it did. | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
When we would say, have you noticed that some people are saying that | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
isn't actually true, people would say, "Vaguely, | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
but it's still a very big number, isn't it?" | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
In the final debate, just days before the vote, | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
the Leave campaign came armed with their catch-all phrase | :35:03. | :35:04. | |
Taking back control of our country and our system. | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
We can take back control over our laws. | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
We can take back control over our taxes. | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
We can take back control over our borders, | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
They were being presented with a simple solution, which was, | :35:20. | :35:29. | |
if you think this is a problem and migration is putting pressures | :35:30. | :35:32. | |
on our public services and jobs, we can take back control. | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
The way I would put it was that we had a complex truth | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
up against a simple lie, and we see what happened. | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
And what happened will be talked about for decades. | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
Though we built the biggest ever cross-party, cross-sector campaign | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
with over 40,000 volunteers, we didn't win the day. | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
This was a campaign where experts were dismissed | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
and conventional wisdom thrown out of the window. | :35:59. | :36:00. | |
Many doubt if campaigns will ever be the same again. | :36:01. | :36:10. | |
And Matthew Elliott from Vote Leave will be looking at how their | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
campaign won the referendum on the Daily Politics. Isabel, having | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
looked at that and seen what they are now saying, I now find myself | :36:21. | :36:25. | |
surprised that Remain lost by only four percentage points. Right. The | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
bottom line is that their big argument on the economy, they went | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
grossly over the top at the beginning. They tried to create what | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
pollsters call a settled view, which then becomes difficult to dislodge. | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
But in doing so, they went so far over the top that their claims | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
became unbelievable, and simply adding more experts to its got no | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
response from the electorate. Secondly, and more importantly, they | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
had no answer on the immigration question. I think the majority of | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
people who voted Leave, whether or not they would admit it, well, in | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
their heart of hearts, voting so because of immigration, and Remain | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
had no answer on that. You didn't have to be a rocket scientist or | :37:09. | :37:11. | |
even a psephologists work-out that immigration was going to be the big | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
issue. We have spoken about it on this programme months before the | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
campaign began, and yet even by the end of the campaign, they still had | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
no answer to the immigration issue. That is the legacy of years of | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
British politics, when no one will make a positive case for | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
immigration, or a case for the trade-off, where you say we accept | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
immigration, or a case for the immigration because of the economic | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
benefits. The economic argument failed because people didn't feel | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
that all these years of prosperity in the City of London had any | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
translation to the real economy. So when we said it would be terrible | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
for the City of London, people thought, what has that got to do | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
with me? Was there anything Remain could have done to have won? I think | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
a different renegotiation in January could have done to have won? I think | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
or February by the Prime Minister Cold War which secured some tangible | :38:02. | :38:08. | |
concession on -- by the Prime Minister, some negotiation which | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
achieved a concession on immigration would have done it. People didn't | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
feel they were getting that, and therefore, it was very interesting. | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
It wasn't the internal dynamics of the campaign that was at fault. The | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
reason they didn't have a answer was because Cameron didn't come back | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
with something solid. So it was Angela Merkel what lost it? Yes, and | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
I am sure she is now bitterly regretting not giving Cameron | :38:35. | :38:36. | |
something. The other thing is that I know that when the Britain Stronger | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
In Europe campaign had their early meetings before the campaign | :38:43. | :38:45. | |
officially began, they had a discussion about identifying five | :38:46. | :38:48. | |
positive things about being in the EU that we can sell to voters, and | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
they couldn't come up with any. That was again part of the problem. They | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
failed to put a positive case, it was just Project Fear. It was also | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
David Cameron what lost it, because for years, to get selected in the | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
Tory party, you had to be Eurosceptic. He then had a career | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
saying it would not be a problem if we leave, and then pivoted to say | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
the sky would fall in. A lot of voters concluded, that is typical of | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
the political elite. Making it up as you go along. | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
It's just gone 11.35, you're watching the Sunday Politics. | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now | :39:23. | :39:29. | |
Good morning and welcome to Sunday Politics Scotland. | :39:30. | :39:31. | |
Coming up in the programme, after another packed week | :39:32. | :39:33. | |
in politics, we'll be trying to make sense of the latest political | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
Chilcot finally delivered his damning report, leading some critics | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
to call for Tony Blair's legal action. | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
I'll be speaking to one of them shortly. | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
Also, after criticising the SNP's economic plans | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
during the referendum, a former permanent secretary | :39:54. | :39:55. | |
to the Treasury now says the case for Scottish Independence | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
And, after two of the three people running the inquiry | :39:59. | :40:06. | |
into child abuse quit, citing Government interference, | :40:07. | :40:08. | |
how can the education secretary John Swinney restore confidence? | :40:09. | :40:18. | |
Anyone expecting an establishment whitewash was in for a surprise | :40:19. | :40:20. | |
when Sir John Chilcot finally delivered his 2.6 | :40:21. | :40:22. | |
Flawed intelligence combined with a legal case for going to war | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
with Iraq that was far from satisfactory and little or no | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
plan for what happened after the invasion. | :40:31. | :40:32. | |
Despite all this, in a marathon and at times emotional press | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
conference, Tony Blair expressed regret but insisted that he'd made | :40:37. | :40:38. | |
With me now is the former Labour MP Tom Harris who himself voted | :40:39. | :40:43. | |
And? I've think if these same circumstances presented themselves. | :40:44. | :41:00. | |
Everywhere presented with the same intelligence we were in 2003 I would | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
have voted in exactly the same way. If you knew then what you know now? | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
If we knew then the intelligence was flawed there would never have been a | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
vote. We would not have asked to go to war if we knew it did not exist. | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
There is the issue of whether governments was undermined in the UK | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
with what happened in Iraq. Would you accept the Chilcot report | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
findings that Cabinet governance was undermined and that, Chilcott does | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
not quite say this, but Tony Blair was out of control. I think what | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
Chilcott and some of the commentators miss is that Tony Blair | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
was in the position that he was Prime Minister and had to make | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
was in the position that he was decisions. Sometimes politicians | :41:54. | :41:54. | |
have to make decisions that are neither easy or popular. Tony Blair | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
rose to that occasion. He built his reputation on the line. He did not | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
keep his cabinet on board? That is not true, there were only two | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
resignations. I mean he did not inform them at all times what she | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
was doing. If used it to any of the Cabinet at the time they will not | :42:19. | :42:19. | |
tell you they felt excluded. It Cabinet at the time they will not | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
a remarkably unified cabinet at the time that that decision and took us | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
into war. The other side is what happened in Iraq. On balance a good | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
thing on a bad thing? Obviously getting rid of Saddam was a good | :42:36. | :42:40. | |
thing. Anyone who needs fascism will celebrate we got rid of him but the | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
aftermath has been truly appalling. Written has today it's clear share | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
of responsibility on that but America has today the larger sheet | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
of responsibility. What happened in the aftermath of Iraq was very | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
similar to what happened in the aftermath of the Afghanistan war | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
back when the Soviets left. When the Americans supported resistance | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
against the Soviets but when the Soviets left so did the Americans | :43:07. | :43:11. | |
and America has the look to its long-term interests and the like | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
that it is going to make interventions then I hope that | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
intervention is still a part of western democracy agenda, they have | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
got to see through the commitments which they did not do in Afghanistan | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
or Iraq. You were leading the Brexit campaign in Scotland. You got 30%. | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
Were you expecting more on less? I was hoping for 40% but I was happy | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
with 38. None of the opinions polls showed we got anywhere near that. | :43:46. | :43:51. | |
The First Minister says there is a case for a second independence | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
referendum given the results, would you accept that? Firstly I don't. | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
When the 2014 referendum happened the Scottish Government White Paper | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
made the explicit threat or promise that if you vote now you could end | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
up being taken out of the EU against our will. Scott is understood that | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
threat and understood what it meant and they still voted no. I do not | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
think what we have got is any kind of change of circumstance at all. If | :44:22. | :44:24. | |
think what we have got is any kind there is another independence | :44:25. | :44:26. | |
referendum it will be specifically those by the Scottish National party | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
and the Scottish Government as the result of the referendum. Even the | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
SMP who claim it is a point of runcible are not claiming it a point | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
of sensible. They claim it depends on how the balls are looking. -- | :44:44. | :44:51. | |
SNP. You must accept some responsibility given the role you | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
played in the referendum. I am all for politicians taking | :44:58. | :44:59. | |
responsibility but I still think independence would be a very bad | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
idea. Even more so once the UK is out of the EU. Thank you for joining | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
us. Joining me now from | :45:08. | :45:09. | |
Inverness is the former We have heard from yourself and | :45:10. | :45:18. | |
David Davies this morning this idea of tabling a motion about Tony Blair | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
in the houses of parliament. The consequences of that is that he | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
could in theory be called to the bar of the House but would not | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
necessarily have to turn up, is that right? He could be summoned before | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
the buyer of the House. That would be likely. He could refuse to come | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
but people have refused to come before House of Commons select | :45:43. | :45:44. | |
committees and that has turned out very badly for them. Refusing to go | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
before the ban of the House would be even worse. The sort of penalties | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
could be being banned from public office ever again. It is not an | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
incarceration as many people would like but it is a strong form of | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
Parliamentary accountability. Just from what you have said their many | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
people would think OK, fine, but this is all largely symbolic. | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
Symbolism can be important in terms of parliament's role. This does not | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
be judge legal action from the authorities or several from the | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
service families. This is all about what Parliament doesn't fit leaves | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
that was misled over a huge issue or systematically misled over a | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
lead-off kind. We have had the inquiry, the trial if you like, know | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
what we are doing is moving to the verdict. Any parliament worth its | :46:44. | :46:47. | |
salt would accept responsibility to make that judgment. Do you see any | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
other avenues or are you involved in any other avenues of legal action | :46:52. | :46:57. | |
against Tony Blair? I support legal action. I think it is a primer fussy | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
case that this is a crime of aggression. The difficulty is the | :47:03. | :47:04. | |
criminal international court is about to get Robin and saw the | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
crimes of aggression but has not got it yet. The domestic courts in | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
England and Wales have been unwilling to take international | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
crimes like kinds of aggression into domestic law. That makes the | :47:18. | :47:23. | |
criminal proceedings very difficult. Perhaps not possible but very | :47:24. | :47:24. | |
criminal proceedings very difficult. difficult. A civil action has been | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
considered by the service families. That would have to come from those | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
who were directly affected, had the loss of a loved one for example. I | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
support all of these initiatives as they can be made at the not under my | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
control or influence. What is under my influences as a member of | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
Parliament I have a right to bring a motion to enforce Parliamentary | :47:52. | :47:52. | |
Parliament I have a right to bring a accountability and that is what I | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
intend to do. You had previously suggested the Scottish Parliament | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
could prosecute Tony Blair. Do you accept that as matters stand that | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
will not be possible? What I suggested, I saw the report in the | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
Herald, at least the daily Herald does not always bother to consult | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
the person they are writing about. What I pointed out was the English | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
and Welsh High Court decided without a specific entry instrument they | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
Wilmot not hear an international crying like a crime of aggression. | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
The Scottish courts have made no such ruling. It may be the Court of | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
Session would come to the same conclusion. There is a possibility | :48:32. | :48:35. | |
in Scotland but I am not a member of the Scottish Parliament, I am a | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
member of the Westminster Parliament. It parliament can | :48:41. | :48:41. | |
enforce accountability and it should. We also have the support of | :48:42. | :48:47. | |
members of Parliament across six political parties which makes it a | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
cross-party move, not a party political move. A movement of | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
cross-party accountability certainly has a very good chance of being | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
recalled in the House of Commons over the next few weeks and I hope | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
it has a chance of being passed. Jim Sillars has suggested the Scottish | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
Parliament could bring in a law which would allow Mr Blair to be | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
prosecuted. Does that seem to you to be a runner? There is a precedent. | :49:14. | :49:23. | |
The Westminster Parliament brought in a specific instrument to allow | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
prosecution of people for Nathalie offences concerning the Holocaust | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
and other matters some years ago. There is a precedent for doing that. | :49:32. | :49:41. | |
Nazi -- offences. It is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. It is not | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
clear if the Scottish courts would be amenable to that. What is clear | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
is the opportunity to enforce Parliamentary accountability. We | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
have had the trial if you like it is now time to pass the verdict. What | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
do you think Mr Blair himself should do in light of the inquiry? I think | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
if he spoke at last Wednesday he should have made a full and frank | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
apology. I thought, looking as I did at the keep the other day, his | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
performance was delusional. He clearly has not come to terms with | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
the extent of the indictment that has been laid out in such detail by | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
John Chilcot. What we have the forerunners and the key thing is | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
revealed in the Chilcot report are the secret memos, Private memos | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
being sent to the American President George W Bush. All you have to do to | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
establish the case of misleading Parliament over the course of a year | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
is to juxtapose the private memos against the public statements to | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
Parliament and people. They then lies the heart of the case for | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
Parliament and people. They then contempt of Parliament. I noted that | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
the faltering voice and the awareness of the consequences. The | :50:55. | :51:00. | |
consequences are horrific. Then there was the declaration that I | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
would do the same thing again. I doubt if that satisfied anyone. | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
Certainly not those who have lost loved ones in Iraq. In another | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
enormous issue, many enormous issues at the moment but Brexit. Nicholas | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
MacPherson who was one of your sparring partners during the | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
referendum campaign. His article suggesting there was a good chance | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
for Scottish independence but that Scotland would have to commit to | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
setting up its own currency. What do you make of that? I notice in John | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
Harris was my interview he has been deserted by John Prescott. Tom has | :51:38. | :51:45. | |
been deserted by Sir Nicholas MacPherson as fun as the | :51:46. | :51:47. | |
advisability of cottage independence is concerned but Tom is still there | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
on the rock by himself. On war and anti-Scottish independence. I think | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
Sir Nicholas MacPherson's article was remarkable and I suppose he | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
might argue he is no longer acting under the orders of George Osborne. | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
Yet able to act as an independent political commentator. In terms of | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
the currency issue itself that is correct. You would devise your | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
currency policy that best suits the new circumstances and I am sure that | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
is exactly what Nicola Sturgeon will do. What in your view would be the | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
best currency policy every they'd is going to be another independence | :52:28. | :52:29. | |
referendum campaign? I support what going to be another independence | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
Nicola has said in this matter. She is reviewing that matter and will | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
bring forward proposals. I have made a public statement saying that is | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
the best way to approach things and I would approach it in the same way | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
we did before the white paper. That is consulting the best experts. | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
Perhaps Sir Nicholas might be among them, who knows? That would be | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
changed circumstances. Then bring forward that committee of experts | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
with the correct currency of Scotland under the new circumstances | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
we face and put that forward as part of the overall prospectus for | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
Scottish independence. The remarkable contrast in preparation | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
that went into the referendum on Scottish independence as to what we | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
would do if we won. As opposed to the zero preparation in the EU | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
referendum is marked and telling. What he will say is you cannot go | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
again with the idea of keeping the pound in an independent Scotland but | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
particularly if Scotland were to be in the European Union and the rest | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
of Britain was not. Would you accept that? If you remember the second | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
debate, the BBC debate, let's call it the big debate with Alistair | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
Darling during the referendum campaign. I laid out in that beat a | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
range of currency options that Scotland could follow. These are | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
still the range of currency options. What Nicola Sturgeon would do, I am | :53:54. | :53:59. | |
sure, is pick the best of these with the greatest experts she can muster, | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
with or without Sir Nicholas MacPherson, and then present the | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
best policy of that range of options to take Scotland forward. Certainly, | :54:07. | :54:13. | |
absolutely, I think we can all conclude over the past two weeks, | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
the remarkable two weeks, the cluster gin has been the only | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
politician has risen to the challenge of leadership. | :54:22. | :54:30. | |
Is the game to get a commitment from the EU that should Britain leave, | :54:31. | :54:42. | |
Scotland, could stay in? Is that the logic of having a referendum within | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
two years? The logic of the talks and discussions that Nicola has been | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
pursuing with the EU institutions and individual European politicians, | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
and although we haven't had a statement from the institutions as | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
yet, nor would you expect one as yet, it would have indications from | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
the leadership of the political parties in the EU Parliament very | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
favourable indeed to Scotland position, and I think these have | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
been significant. If you don't get a commitment, it doesn't matter | :55:13. | :55:15. | |
whether or not you have a referendum within two years, we could wait for | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
the eventual agreement with Britain. If you'll allow me, I'll follow the | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
leadership of Nicola Sturgeon as opposed to the hypothesis of Gordon | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
Brewer. All right! We will have to leave it there. | :55:30. | :55:30. | |
Since voters opted for Brexit, the pound along with consumer | :55:31. | :55:32. | |
and business confidence has been falling. | :55:33. | :55:34. | |
This week also saw several UK commercial property funds move | :55:35. | :55:36. | |
to stem the rush of investors trying to get their money out. | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
Meanwhile the cost of imports and commodities traded in dollars | :55:40. | :55:41. | |
That's bad news for lovers of petrol, coffee and chocolate. | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
But what does all this actually mean for the bigger economic picture? | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
After all, for the time being, the UK is still a full member | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
of the EU and some Brexiteers claim the declining value of the pound | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
will help exports, thus mitigating any other difficulties. | :55:57. | :55:58. | |
Well, shortly before we came on air, in an attempt to get | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
to grips with Brexonomics, I spoke to the economist | :56:02. | :56:03. | |
First of all, let's look at what's happened in the media at aftermath | :56:04. | :56:15. | |
of Brexit. It was supposed to be Apocalypse now. And it seems to be | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
may be Apocalypse sometime in the future but we are not quite sure | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
when. Yes. There is a certain amount of land. We are only going to get | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
hard economic statistics, the earliest probably in September, and | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
what we have is a huge period of uncertainty. The indicator that | :56:39. | :56:48. | |
looks bad is the currency. So, the Stirling dollar rate has gone down | :56:49. | :56:54. | |
by around 12%. So that will make an impact over the next few months. It | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
is somewhat of a double-edged sword. It is not so good for people all | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
going away to the continent, but quite good for exporters but it'll | :57:07. | :57:10. | |
take some time for the benefits of the currency to feed through. It is | :57:11. | :57:15. | |
also ambiguous because while the pound against the dollar is down to | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
a 30 year low, the pound against a basket of currency of our trading | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
partners is down a little bit. That's true. A lot of the goods that | :57:28. | :57:34. | |
we buy Ardagh nominated in dollars. So, you know, we will feel the | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
effect on petrol quite soon, probably quite a lot on food prices, | :57:40. | :57:48. | |
coffee. The overall impact on trade may not be as great as that might be | :57:49. | :57:57. | |
implied by the pound dollar rate, but we will start to see the effects | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
feed through over the next few months. And those could include | :58:05. | :58:10. | |
things like higher petrol prices because oil is to nominated in | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
dollars, and so on. Sure. I mean, on the sorts of devaluation against the | :58:15. | :58:23. | |
dollar that we have seen so far, the Bank of England's rough guess I | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
would estimate around 3% increase in prices. That is a rate of inflation | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
that is within the Bank of England's target, but not like one we have | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
seen for a long time because inflation has been quite slow for | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
the last few years. It also has indications for living standards, | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
doesn't it? We were just getting into a situation where, finally, | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
since after the financial crash, real earnings were starting to go | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
up, people were getting more in their pay packets and they were | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
losing three inflation. It could stop that happening. What we will | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
see is a bit of an impact for the new living wage. That will help | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
people at the bottom somewhat. And people whose incomes are protected | :59:14. | :59:14. | |
against inflation, who have got people whose incomes are protected | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
something linked to inflation, they will be all right. But those people | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
will maybe just above the national living wage, who had started to see | :59:26. | :59:32. | |
some increase in the earnings, I suspect, especially if the economy | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
slows down, that movement will be put into reverse. What we are | :59:38. | :59:43. | |
sometimes tending to forget a little bit in this debate about the | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
economic effect is that nothing has actually happened. We are still in | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
the European Union. If you are a factory somewhere in Britain where | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
your products go to Europe, nothing has changed. The real economic | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
impact will presumably come when we actually leave. Well, I do think | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
that actually uncertainty is building up. And that can have real | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
economic effects. You do hear there may be apocryphal stories of | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
investment being delayed, and that will take some time to feed through | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
to the economic statistics but it is around decisions that are being laid | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
now which arise because of the uncertainty, because no one really | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
knows what the outcome of these negotiations, whether they be with | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
the EU or the broader trade negotiations, where these are going | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
to go. And that makes the UK's somewhat less of an attractive | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
investment destination. Perhaps the most concerning thing that happened | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
this week, rather than what has happened to the currency or markets, | :00:50. | :00:57. | |
is that survey that was done of the German Chambers of Commerce, where | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
German companies were saying either we will rethink investment in | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Britain or we will make no decision on investment in Britain. I think | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
that's true. And I think one of the most important things and one of the | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
benefits of EU has been technology transfer, so, you've got a lot of | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
companies that work across the EU, manufacturing partly in Britain but | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
partly in Germany, partly in France, and I think the companies that do | :01:24. | :01:31. | |
that kind of work, it seems, are thinking very carefully because they | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
don't know what is going to happen in relation to trade barriers or | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
whatever, as far as the UK is concerned, so they are, I think, | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
holding back for the moment. Different but related subject, a | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
possible second independence referendum because of Brexit. What | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
did you make of Nicola MacPherson's comments that this was a great | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
chance for the SNP to get independence, but they would have to | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
rethink the issue of currency and go for an independent currency? Well, I | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
saw his article in the financial Times, and he argues the Treasury | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
won't accept the trade union because they are being burned by that kind | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
of arrangement in the past. That means effectively Scotland would | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
have to go for its own currency. Well, I mean... That seems to me to | :02:24. | :02:34. | |
be a logical argument. Where it might lead, not quite clear. Quite a | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
lot of unknown is around it, but, certainly, a possible argument | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
towards independence. All right, we will have to leave it there. Thank | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
you very much indeed. The Education Secretary | :02:47. | :02:47. | |
and Deputy First Minister has promised that he'll consider | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
revising the remit of the government's | :02:50. | :02:51. | |
inquiry into child abuse. John Swinney gave the commitment | :02:52. | :02:54. | |
after meeting survivors' He'd been hoping to reassure them | :02:55. | :02:56. | |
after two controversial resignations from the panel | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
conducting the inquiry. Campaigners hope Mr Swinney | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
will take this opportunity to widen the scope of the investigation, | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
to include abuse out-with residential settings and to allow | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
the award of recompense Did something bad happened here? | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
When you were in care? Sometimes, a soap can help you | :03:15. | :03:37. | |
understand something more than the bare facts in a news bulletin. There | :03:38. | :03:44. | |
are always talking about historical abuse cases. Historical... You said | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
historical. It's not historical. abuse cases. Historical... You said | :03:50. | :04:00. | |
never ends. The writers and cast of River City heard first hand of abuse | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
as they rehearsed Patrick's story. Drama of a different kind at the | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
historic abuse inquiry. The chair Drama of a different kind at the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
and another panel member resigned, Drama of a different kind at the | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
leaving just one in post. So, the education Secretary met survivors | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
and support groups on Thursday, seeking to reassure them that the | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
inquiry will be free from government interference. Afterwards, a welcome | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
for John Swinney's commitment to look again at the inquiry's raiment. | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
What we ask is to ensure the children of tomorrow are safe in | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
this country, so you need to look at where the abuses in disease-mac | :04:38. | :04:48. | |
occurred. If it is in guides, scouts, look at every institution, | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
not just care homes. The process of evidence gathering is under way, and | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
that is in no way in Pete by the events we have had to deal with in | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
the course of the last couple of weeks. What I want to do is take | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
time to isn't carefully to the survivors, which I have done today, | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
and I will do so over the summer, reflect on the issues they've raised | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
with me and take the necessary steps to appoint a new personal to lead | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
the inquiry and also to consider the issues that have been raised. | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
Survivors say they want the inquiry to tell the truth about what | :05:19. | :05:21. | |
happened to them and to give them justice. If John Swinney looks at | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
the remote and includes free dress, the same as they had an island, it | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
means the two can run parallel. Some can speak about their performance, | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
speak about the abuse they suffered. The panel of the inquiry would then | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
have the power to include free dress for that individual. So, it could | :05:45. | :05:49. | |
run parallel alongside, so it isn't a case of going forward, waiting for | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
my gears, then going to court, then to try to get the justice. Redress | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
means more than just giving survivors cash as compensation. As | :06:03. | :06:03. | |
means more than just giving part of that whole concept of | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
re-dress, that is about working to ensure that insofar as it is | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
possible, we will restore people to the place they would have been in | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
their lives if the abuse didn't take place. Sometimes insuring that you | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
have appropriate medical services to refer people onto. In my experience, | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
working with victims of abuse, it is often these unseen support services | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
that are really important. We have already had a report into historic | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
abuse in the Roman Catholic Church in Scotland. Can that experience | :06:39. | :06:42. | |
teach us anything about what success looks like for inquiry, or what we | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
should be looking for? Any inquiry, you can't judge the success of it at | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
the end of it. It will be in the years to come, the inquiry will make | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
their recommendations, the ways in which we should handle allegations, | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
the ways in which we should try to engage with and help survivors, so | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
you need to make those recommendations at the end of the | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
inquiry and then revisit them. And there needs to be processed that in | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
three or five years when you look at those recommendations and look at | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
them, you say they were put into practice. Or not. And if not, what | :07:20. | :07:27. | |
is the recourse than. The sad truth is that no inquiry can guarantee | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
that abuse will not happen again. None of us know what the next abuser | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
will look like. You can't tell. It is what human beings are capable of. | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
Human beings are capable of doing that to children and that will | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
always be the case as long as there are human beings in the world. | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
It's time to look back at the events of the past week and see what's | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
and the political commentator Hamish Macdonell. | :07:52. | :08:05. | |
Let's start with Labour. Could not make it up. You couldn't, no. Angela | :08:06. | :08:13. | |
Ingle and Jeremy Corbyn talking about their respective it's for | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
leadership. Jeremy Corbyn looking to get on the ballot paper again but | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
Angela Eagle is saying it is time for him to step back and she should | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
take the leadership. She didn't look particularly happy to be putting | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
herself forward for the leadership on Monday. It is a depressing | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
situation in labour all around. And a possible split. It's difficult to | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
see anything but a split. The basic point seems to be here that the | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
Parliamentary Labour Party believes one thing, and the vast majority of | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
the membership seems to believe another. The two are separate. | :08:53. | :08:54. | |
However this goes, if the vote goes another. The two are separate. | :08:55. | :09:02. | |
away in which one side doesn't like, it's difficult to see the party | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
coming out of this in any form as a unified party. And also it is very | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
difficult politically. If you have proportional representation, you can | :09:13. | :09:14. | |
have these sorts of things but in a first past the post system, | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
have these sorts of things but in a ever one ends up being the Labour | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
Party... Is going to have the advantage. History tells us if you | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
have any kind of breakaway party, it takes a long time for that party to | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
get anywhere in terms of representational politics. The SDP | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
suffered. They had a large number of people supporting them but they | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
could make the breakthrough which is what the first past the persistent | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
does. It we trenches two big parties, some if the big party | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
splits, it's going to be difficult for both parts of that party to | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
fight on and try to become an opposition. And to stop that | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
happening, Lynsey, one side has to give on something. There isn't much | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
sign of either side being prepared to. There doesn't. And this morning | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
both Jeremy Corbyn and Angela Eagle were talking about saying to each | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
other, it is time to take a step back to unify the party, to bring it | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
together and to prevent the split from happening. But it really looks | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
like it is too late for that now. This is gone too far, and it is very | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
difficult to see the two sides reconciling, no matter what happens, | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
if Jeremy Corbyn does get on the ballot paper and he wins, there is | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
going to be resentment among the Parliamentary group, they are not | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
going to accept that. We should point out they could even be a legal | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
battle over whether or not Jeremy Corbyn gets to be on the ballot. | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
That's right. It's not clear. Neil Kinnock was saying that when this | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
happened to him, he had to get the signatures to get on the ballot | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
paper and German Corbyn was saying he expects, as the incumbent leader, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
to automatically get on the ballot paper, said there is going to be a | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
row over that. Len McCluskey warned that if he doesn't get on the ballot | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
paper, you're going to be facing a split anyway because of the huge | :10:59. | :11:01. | |
revolt from Jeremy Corbyn's supporters. It is the point Andrew | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
Neil was putting too Angela Eagle, isn't it? It is ridiculous to have | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
someone who was elected by 60% of the membership not allow to stand | :11:14. | :11:15. | |
again after less than a year. That is the big weakness of the | :11:16. | :11:31. | |
Jeremy Corbyn position. If Angela Eagle is seen to be a stalking horse | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
and she stands to force an election and then somebody comes through on | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
the left is acceptable to both sides but is not Jeremy Corbyn, that is a | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
possible way of uniting the party but even that it is difficult to see | :11:45. | :11:46. | |
how it might work. That would but even that it is difficult to see | :11:47. | :11:48. | |
reasonably require Jeremy Corbyn Wai but even that it is difficult to see | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
Phyo OK the game is up but perhaps I could be in the Shadow Cabinet. | :11:54. | :12:02. | |
Someone close someone close good say he could stand on so long as he is | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
given his way. It is difficult to see how he could possibly back down | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
now. Tories, leadership contest, that one is getting nasty by the | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
minute as well? Indeed it is. Andrea led some in trouble over some | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
comments she has been making. She denies they were made in the way the | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
Times newspaper has said they have reported them. It is not a great | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
start for Andrea led some but I wonder if it is because this is how | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
the will be decided by the Tory membership it is not going to | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
matter. It will not be the rest of us who get to decide, it is those | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
Tory members and perhaps they like Andrea led some. I am not say the | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
decision not to have children is not important to some people but it is | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
quite extraordinary that this Tory leadership contest has turned into a | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
debate about someone having not having children rather than the fact | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
they will have to negotiate an exit when they come into office. I think | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
what it showed is the inexperience of Andrea Leadsom. When the comments | :13:09. | :13:17. | |
came out she should have had a measured response to them rather | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
than flying off the handle and accusing the times of this, that and | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
the next thing. It shows a gulf of experience between Theresa May and | :13:26. | :13:33. | |
Andrea Leadsom. My feeling is with all the people we have had over the | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
past couple of weeks that those Tory members will want safety and | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
security and stability. For that reason they will want probably to | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
vote for Theresa May go the way things are at the moment who knows. | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
We will hold you to that! I'll be back at the | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
same time next week. | :13:53. | :13:57. |