25/09/2016 Sunday Politics Scotland

Welcome to Liverpool where the Labour Party has decided

who its next leader should be - he's the same one they had before.

So is it onwards and upwards for Jeremy Corbyn's Labour?

Morning folks and welcome to the Sunday Politics.

I am therefore, conference, delighted to declare Jeremy Corbyn

elected as leader of the Labour Party.

Jeremy Corbyn says he wants to "wipe the slate clean".

But can Labour MPs serve under a man they said they had no confidence in?

We look at where the next battles are likely to be fought and speak

to one peer who's quitting the party in protest.

Jeremy has no leadership qualities, whatsoever.

His little group like him and they think he is the Messiah

but he will never become the leader -

He's been "getting down" at party conferences for more than 50 years -

we'll ask John Prescott if he's optimistic about the next 50 years.

David Cameron felt "let down" by Theresa May

because of her lukewarm support for Remain during the

Was she a secret brexiteer or just manoeuvring for the top job?

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland -

I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she REALLY thinks of Jeremy Corbyn?

And, all parties agree it's unfair - but what will replace Council Tax?

And we tried to oust them from the programme -

but they're back by popular demand - so with me - the best

and the brightest political panel in the business Steve Richards,

Rachel Shabi and Tom Newton-Dunn, who'll be tweeting

David Cameron became intensely frustrated

at Theresa May's unwillingness to declare her intentions

That's according to a new book by Mr Cameron's former spin doctor.

The book by Craig Oliver is called Unleashing Demons:

The Inside Story Of Brexit, and is being serialised in Mail

The book talks about Mrs May's "submarine strategy

Mr Oliver also writes that, "Her sphinx-like approach

At one point a leading Remain campaigner asks: "Are we sure May's

Oliver also makes claims around Boris Johnson's

He claims Mr Johnson texted Mr Cameron after

saying Brexit would be "crushed like a toad beneath the harrow".

And claims the new Foreign Secretary had a last-minute wobble over

backing a vote to Leave the EU, sending a text which read

There we go. We know the feeling! This is a Prime Minister of which we

know very little. What does this tell us about her? What it tells us

is that Craig Oliver David Cameron don't like her very much, that's the

only thing we can be 100% sure of, quite frankly. We knew she was a

submarine throughout the campaign and I remember discussing it during

the campaign on your programme. What we are debating is the motive, why

does she stay hidden? Speaking to Downing Street people this morning,

they are furious. They say Craig Oliver would be better writing

fiction than fact. They are disputing a lot of what Craig Oliver

says but of course he was there. It comes down to what you think of

Theresa May. Why was she so quiet? Why would she not come up behind

Cameron? Was it a political thing because she wanted to be a PM or did

she not believe what he was saying? What we know is she was always a

reluctant Remainer and some people thought she was a secret Brexiteer.

What with don't know is she was playing the part of a submarine. Was

she quietly plotting for the leadership? That is the bit that is

unclear. Yes, I mean, I think to a certain extent a lot of these things

we did already know, you are right. But we didn't know the extent to

which... I mean, this is a party which claims to love Britain and yet

seems to make decisions on the basis of pure political gain. And once we

see the machinations of that and the insights to that that seem to be

exposed today in this book, the fact Theresa May was asked 13 times, the

fact Boris Johnson... 13 times to? To step up and support Cameron. I

missed that, 13 times she was asked? In fact, Boris Johnson less than a

minute before making decisions sent a text to David Cameron saying he

would come out in favour of Remain, shows how arbitrary, random and

politically driven these decisions were. I think we should be asking

them these questions every day. It is unforgivable they took the

country to such a massive and catastrophic decision on the basis

of such naked political gain. That has never happened in politics

before! Perish the thought! I thought that because Mrs May played

the part of reluctant Remainer she would annoy both sides, that the

Leave campaign would be angry with her because she didn't jump to them

and Remain side would be angry because she did nothing effective

during the campaign and that would count her out from getting the

leadership. How did I get that wrong? It certainly didn't have that

effect. I think we can roughly work out what happened. A senior official

at the Home Office who worked with Theresa May for a long time told me

earlier this year, long before the referendum, and when people had

declared, that he was 100% sure she would back Remain. He was a great

admirer of hers and he said that was her view and that she would do that.

So I think she was a Remainer. But as you say, she had doubts. She made

Corbyn look evangelical on the issue. There is nothing

contradictory about being in the end for Remain but harbouring leadership

ambitions. They did try to get her to do more, I know they did. But the

Remain campaign was also ambiguous about the issue of immigration and

the group Dunne the degree to which they wanted to go with it, they

wanted to go on the economy. I don't think they pressed her the heart of

the dominant force in the campaign because they wanted it to be more

about the economy than immigration. So reluctant Remainer, low profile

for all kinds of reasons, one of which was the Remain campaign didn't

want immigration to overwhelm the economy. It did in the end. They

calculated that wrong. The Remain campaign got that wrong, not Theresa

May. Have we known less about any Prime Minister in modern times than

Theresa May? It's funny because we think we know her. I've interviewed

her, you have interviewed her, we have seen her around the scene for

20 years but we don't know precisely... We will get a load more

about this at Tory conference. Is that coming up? Have got to go there

too? One day we will leave Liverpool. People will see that as

an opportunity to explain a bit more about her. River Lea, because we

need to move on. We'll have a habit of overestimated and overanalysing

Theresa May -- briefly. She could be a simple straightforward person who

likes to tell the truth, ever thought about that? Never. It is

tough to get to the top with people knowing who you are. Why would we

want to leave Liverpool? Look over there, it is lovely. It was the

result everyone expected. After almost three months

of campaigning Labour have the same leader they had before -

so can the slate really be wiped clean - as Jeremy Corbyn has urged -

or will splits and divisions Adam Fleming has been watching

events here in Liverpool unfolding. But it's been about our Labour

family facing the future. He was the head of the family last

week and he'll be the head So Labour has elected its new leader

and is the old leader, So Labour has elected its new leader

and it's the old leader, Jeremy Corbyn, winning this contest

and winning by a slightly larger In his second victory speech in just

over a year Jeremy Corbyn said Labour would fight the Government's

plans to extend grammar I'm calling on Labour Party members

all over the country to join us in a national campaign for inclusive

education for all next Saturday. The Tories' plans for grammar school

segregation of our children expose their divisive and damaging

agenda for our country. But the big message

to his party was this. We have much more in common

than that which divides us. As far as I'm concerned let's wipe

that slate clean from today and get on with the work we've got to do

as a party together. Jezza escaped the cameras to go

and celebrate with his allies. Where is the Jeremy

Corbyn victory party There will be a number of victory

parties, but the most important thing now is just

bringing people together. So what Jeremy will be doing

is going around all the different individual party receptions,

the different regions and giving the same unity message,

and he will be drinking, or having cups of tea,

with everybody, all sides. As luck would have it we found

a persistent Corbyn critic who had just been invited

in for a friendly chat. I'm actually just going

to see Jeremy Corbyn now. Oh, are you?

Have a one-to-one chat? He asked me to see me

so I'm going to see him. Can we come with you?

Alas, I don't think he'll allow it. And we did, staking out

their meeting at the leader's hotel. She didn't sound

entirely convinced. It was fine.

What happened? He wanted to talk to me because I'm

the chair of the women's PLP. It's the right thing to do that

Jeremy wanted to see people like me who have our own mandates

within the PLP. I think that's

the right thing to do. It's whether you listen and then

change your actions that matters. Others were less polite on Twitter,

posting pictures of their chopped He is hostile to America,

he is hostile to business and he's And I'm the reverse on all those

issues as well. This is a position,

as Leader of The Opposition, where effectively you are in

position to become the next You cannot become the Prime Minister

of this country unless you appeal to the great population,

and in particular middle England. And I think Jeremy has no

leadership qualities whatsoever. Back at conference,

they were setting up for a meeting Corbyn fans and Corbyn sceptics

are deadlocked over reforms to the party, especially

plans to revive elections The criticism doesn't matter

here at the festival running alongside conference,

organised by the pro-Corbyn They are just over the moon

that they have managed to get their hero elected,

not just once but twice. And we're joined now

by the former Shadow Health Welcome back to the Sunday Politics.

Tell me, what will go down in history as the most botched coup of

2016? Will it be the uprising against President Erdogan in Turkey,

or your efforts to unseat Mr Corbyn in the UK?

You've started from completely the wrong premise, Andrew, to be honest.

As much as you might read in the papers about a finely orchestrated

plot and coo, what I know is I resigned at the end of June because

I had concerns about Jeremy's capacity to lead the Labour Party. I

was worried that in a very complicated situation that we find

ourselves in after the results of the referendum he didn't have the

capacity to develop the answers that the party needs. So there was a

concerted effort to get rid of him. I resigned at the end of June. A

number of my colleagues shared the sense of despair and there was

clearly a vote of no-confidence in the Parliamentary Labour Party. At

the point at which that happened and that the point at which Jeremy said

he wasn't going to resign, they had to be a leadership contest. Why did

there have to be? What was the point of it? You have left him stronger

than ever. What we have done this is have a

really important debate about the future of the Labour Party. It was

important for members of parliament who with Jeremy day in and day out

and who have had growing concerns over the last year to say we've got

to change as a party. The next 12 months need to be better than the

last 12 months. We need to appeal to the country. We need Jeremy to

understand that if we are going to be a credible and effective

opposition, and a government in waiting, then he actually needs to

get his act together. So does he understand that now? I hope so but

only time will tell. It may all be for nothing. You'll have to ask him

the next time he comes on your show. You were the ones who sparked this

process. Do you now have any doubt that he will lead Labour into the

2020 election? Well, a week is a long time in politics, Andrew. Who

knows when the next General Election will be? I said 2020, that is when

it is scheduled to be but there could be a surprise but Labour would

have to vote for that in the Commons. Let's assume it is 2020 and

it is the full term. Are you in any doubt that Mr Corbyn will lead your

party into that election? Watch Jeremy has got to do is prove he can

unite the party and that he can craft a message that appeals to the

country. I don't think anyone wants to continue the leadership contest

of this summer. But what people like me are determined to do is to

continue fighting for a Labour Party that speaks to and for the whole of

the country, and one which is capable of winning the next General

Election. So you do have some doubts? That is not what I said. We

need to focus our efforts... I know what you said about your focus but

it is a simple question, do you have doubts that he can win the next

General Election? Jeremy needs to prove that he is a competent and

capable Leader of the Opposition. You have said that, of course,

everybody who is Leader of the Opposition must prove they are

competent. It would seem from your inability to give a straight answer

that you do have doubts that he will win, indeed you even seem to have

doubts that he will lead your party into the next election. I have been

honest and it would be quite strange for me having been so explicit over

the summer to come onto your programme and say that overnight the

concerns that I had expressed had evaporated. Clearly Jeremy is to be

congratulated on winning for a second time and he won a clear

victory. But because people have voted for him in the numbers that

they have doesn't mean that somebody like me automatically changes my

mind. There are a number of things that he could do to move the party

forward. Give me the most important one. I think he needs to commit

unequivocally to a majority of the Shadow Cabinet being elected by the

Parliamentary Labour Party. MPs need a new top team to coalesce around.

Jeremy has talked about extending an olive branches. Is talked about

wiping the slate clean. The time for words is over. -- he has talked. The

time for that is over. He needs to say one thing that would show his

willingness to compromise. A minority of the Shadow Cabinet

should be elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party? --

majority. That is the first one. There are other ideas about how the

cabinet should be selected. Do you believe he will do that? He's been

playing for time in the NEC. What would be useful is in the 24 hours

following his election is for him to show that he has learned from the

last 12 months and an elected Shadow Cabinet would be one way of doing

that. I also think... Can I just ask, why would he do that? His

support, his constituency, if I could put it that way, is the

membership in the country. Particularly the new members, who

gave him 85% of their votes. He knows the PLP cannot stand him. So

why would he hand the power to choose his Shadow Cabinet to that

part of the Labour Party which likes him least?

I think you are characterising the Parliamentary Labour Party

incorrectly, Andrew. Jeremy needs to build a team in Parliament in order

to fulfil the basic functions of a parliamentary opposition. The basic

duties parliamentary opposition cannot be carried out if you don't

have a team. Clearly people were concerned about the direction of

travel over the past year. We've been concerned about dreadful

results in local elections, we've been concerned about the inability

to go out and really make the case strongly for us staying in the EU.

If Jeremy wants to be a strong and effective opposition, she needs --

he needs to be Parliament... All of us need to behave with maturity and

humility going forward. I think there's some options here that he

could be exploring. All right. If he doesn't follow your advice and if he

sticks with the leader largely appointing the Shadow Cabinet, many

would say if it was good enough for Ed Miliband to do that it should be

good enough for Jeremy Corbyn to do that, if he continues along that

route, should centrist MPs like yourself serve in that Shadow

Cabinet? I won't be serving in that Shadow Cabinet. I have been explicit

in my view this summer, as I've already said to you, they haven't

changed overnight simply because Jeremy Paris been elected. Can you

just explain, given... I'm not sure what else he has to do. He's won two

leadership elections by massive majorities, the second one even

bigger than the first. He is clearly the choice of the party in the

country. Why would you not join his Shadow Cabinet? Because as I said in

the last couple of months, and I'm sorry to say this, but my

experiences during that time were that it was dysfunctional and I

think behaviours do have to change in order for the Parliamentary

Labour Party and the Shadow Cabinet to be a really effective opposition.

I think I can best serve the Labour Party and my constituents from the

backbenches. If we know how this works... If I were to return to the

front bench, in a couple of weeks' time you would be saying to me,

Heidi Alexander, you said all of those things over the summer, have

you now changed your mind? I don't think that's good for anyone. Would

you advise like-minded MPs to do the same, not to join Mr Corbyn's Shadow

Cabinet? I think every member of Parliament will ultimately take

their own decisions. Would you advise them or just leave them to

their own devices? I think if Jeremy commits to having the majority of

the Shadow Cabinet elected by the Parliamentary Labour Party, then for

some people that might be the right thing to do for them. You backed

Owen Smith in this election campaign. If there were a general

fear among MPs like yourself that Labour is drifting to father left to

be electable for the country as a whole, why if that was the case did

Owen Smith not attack a single domestic policy of Jeremy Corbyn's?

I think what Owen did throughout the campaign was actually moved beyond

the slogans. That's the problem we've had in the last year. Jeremy

Thompson about investing ?500 billion in a capital investment

programme but has absolutely no idea where that's coming from. -- Jeremy

Thompson bout that. -- Jeremy talks about that. Owen

Smith is honest and says we would have to borrow. That's what Jeremy

Corbyn says! Actually, it's quite different to what Jeremy Corbyn and'

John McDonald have been saying. If the fear was drifting to the left

and making the party unelectable... It was mainly about, we're just as

left wing as Mr Corbyn but we are more unelectable! You didn't have

any major policy differences with the leader! I think we did,

actually. We spoke about the EU referendum and our commitment and

our belief that the British people should have a say on the final

Brexit deal, either in a second referendum or at the general

election. There were differences around areas of defence policy as

well. Domestic policy was my original question. I understand the

difference on defence. It's clear that the party membership has

changed. Revolution may be too strong a word, but there is a clear

difference between the new members who have come in and those who were

party members at the election last year and in May of 2015. What would

be wrong for these new members to say we would like Labour MPs who

more reflect our values, our positions, our policy is that we

want to see implemented. What would be wrong with that? I think the

Labour Party is quite divided at the moment and we should be honest about

that. This is a searing revelation you're giving me this morning (!)

Parties change, your party has been reinvigorated with a lot of young,

new people coming in. What would be wrong with them saying actually, I

would like to have an MP represent me who is more in tune with what

I've signed up for? I'm not sure it's really about that, to be

honest. My own experience in my constituency, someone who is a

hard-working member of Parliament, I've spoken to a lot of those new

members who value the work that I do in my constituency but some of whom

have taken the decision clearly to vote for Jeremy still. We should

remember that since Jeremy Maclin lost the election, 80,000 people

joined between then and the freeze date of the 12th of January, so

there are 80,000 people who had by and large joint because of Jeremy

Vine who had not yet had the opportunity to vote for him. I

understand that. Are you in trouble yourself? I hope I'm not but I know

there are people who are agitating against it. What do you think when

you see Diane Abbott doing that job? I think Diane Abbott has one of the

biggest and most responsible jobs in Parliament. I think that she needs a

team around her to actually do that job effectively. The only way she

will get that team is if Jeremy agrees, I think, to Shadow Cabinet

elections. That is a point that has come through loud and clear. Heidi

Alexander, thank you. So, Labour MPs who prompted this

leadership contest have lost the argument and failed to persuade

Labour Party members and supporters But can centrist Labour MPs use

the party machinery to take The National Executive Committee

is the Labour Party's ruling body. Win control of the NEC and you win

control of the beating Since Jeremy Corbyn

first became leader, there has been a fine balance

on the NEC between his loyalists In anticipation of his re-election,

the deputy leader Tom Watson has recently been squaring up

to Mr Corbyn in the latest The committee has 33 members

representing local parties, unions, Going into the party's conference,

the NEC looks to have tipped slightly in the leader's favour,

with 18 Corbyn-leaning members Although one or two of these

could tilt either way The pro-Corbyn block has been

boosted by two new members. Rhea Wolfson and Claudia Webbe,

who will replace two However, the NEC recently agreed

a rule change that could allow Scottish Labour

leader Kezia Dugdale and Welsh First Minister Carwyn

Jones, both hostile to Mr Corbyn, Tom Watson is also leading the move

to restore elections to the Shadow Cabinet,

a plan overwhelmingly The Shadow Cabinet currently picks

three of its own to sit on the NEC, currently two of the three,

Jon Trickett and Rebecca The other, Jonathan Ashworth,

is a Corbyn sceptic. If Labour MPs were allowed to elect

people to the Shadow Cabinet it could result in more centrists

on the NEC. Meanwhile, Mr Corbyn is promoting

the idea of giving ordinary party members and trade unions more

say on the committee. Control of the NEC could allow

Jeremy Corbyn and his allies to change the rules for future

leadership elections, which would make it almost

impossible for MPs and MEPs to stop another left-wing candidate making

a future bid for the leadership. And the move perhaps most feared

by MPs, a mandatory reselection We're joined now by Rhea Wolfson -

a Jeremy Corbyn supporter who was recently elected to the NEC

and takes up her seat at the end of the week -

and by Luke Akehurst who supported Owen Smith

in the leadership election. It is very finely balanced. The

figures I would have would be 16 members that clearly support Corbyn

and maybe 17 that don't. Do you agree with that? Yes, I think it is

very finely balanced. With the recent elections, with Jeremy Corbyn

supporters winning all those seeds, if not tipping the balance. What

about this decision to appoint Scottish and Welsh representatives

to the NEC? I understand as it stands at the moment that they would

be appointed by the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Labour parties.

In other words, appointed by Labour sceptics. Will that switch the

balance more against Mr Corbyn? On its own merits it's a good thing

because it is an obvious gap that there hasn't been Scottish and Welsh

representation, but if you look at the front is in those two countries,

it probably wouldn't be hugely helpful to him. What would you think

of that? I agree it probably would change the balance of power. I'm

really disappointed with how this has come about and I think it's

incredibly important to have elected Scottish and Welsh representative.

So you think that if we do have Scottish and Welsh representatives,

they should be elected by the membership in Scotland and Wales?

Absolutely. It's not an interim think is not as if we're moving

towards having better representation, it's actually taking

an incredibly important issue of the table. During the Commons review,

the moderate wing of the party actually put forward proposals that

would have guaranteed members on the NEC LX did buy one member one vote

from each nation and region of the UK and we didn't manage to get that

through and in fact the left of the party opposed it at the time. Or is

it going to happen, the Scottish and Welsh wraps being appointed? I

understand there may be attempt to overturn it this week on the

conference floor. I think that's probably one of the more interesting

things that will happen this week, it will probably go to a vote on

conference floor. I'm probably reasonably confident at least on the

side of the constituency delegates that moderates did well in those.

Three members of the Shadow Cabinet get to go on to the NEC and that

could change the balance of power as well. Are you in favour of elections

for the Shadow Cabinet, and if so, by whom? In principle... Again, I

don't want to take this conversation out of context and don't think you

can. This is all about political Moon over in again. My concern is

this is to undermine Corbyn. I'm not a fan of people saying they won't

serve unless elected. I am accountable to members. How would

you like to see the Shadow Cabinet chosen, then? I would be willing to

listen to the practicalities about the accommodation of having it

entirely elected by members. All elected?

But not by the PLP? That could be compromise. There was one third, one

third, one third. I would consider that, an electoral college. The PLP

could choose the Shadow Cabinet, as has been suggested. Will Corbyn

agree to that? It depends if Jeremy is serious about what he says about

party unity and olive branches. I want to at least see functional

unity where the Labour Party gets on with its job of holding the Tories

to account and attacking the weak government. In order to do that you

need people to come back who resigned this summer. There will not

come back unless they have an independent mandate from the PLP. A

few might but to get everyone re-engaged there has got to be some

kind of concession who were unhappy with Jeremy Bosman leadership, it is

political reality. Mr Corbyn has won two leadership elections in a row.

If MPs who were disillusioned with him continue to snap, in the words

of Len McCluskey, the Unite leader, do they risk the selection and

should they? I don't like talking about the selection process is like

that, it makes it seem like people are trying to seize power. That's a

decision for local parties. The conversation we should be having,

and why this conversation has come about because of mandatory

deselection, it's because people are unhappy, there is a rift between the

PLP and party members and that must be resolved, and it can be in other

ways apart from mandatory deselection. I think those other

ways should be the priority. Aren't we in a process where the

Parliamentary Labour Party now has to change to reflect the membership

of the new Labour Party? At the moment there is a disconnect between

the kind of people who have signed up to join Labour and the sort of

people who represent Labour in the PLP. Is it not inevitable that some

of these will be changed in the months and years ahead? Or the other

way it could happen is that the composition of the membership could

change to reflect Labour voters more. At the moment we have a

membership that his weight to the left even of the people who already

vote Labour. Demographically it is dominated by graduates and well off

people from the south of England so it doesn't represent the Labour

heartlands. So are you going to start a centrist Momentum? There was

an initial amount of work on recruitment, one of the mistakes in

the leadership election was not have a lot in the phase that you could

reach out to the country and persuade loads of people to come

back. The moderate wing of the party will not win until we learn how to

recruit a mass membership in the same way Jeremy Corbyn has done.

It's going to be an interesting time at the NEC. It will be interesting!

It's just gone 11.37am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

Coming up on Sunday Politics Scotland:

I'll be asking Kezia Dugdale what she really thinks

And, all parties agree it's unfair

but what's going to replace Council Tax?

Kezia Dugdale let it be known, long before yesterday's result,

that she didn't think Jeremy Corbyn stood much chance of winning

In an interview with Victoria Derbyshire yesterday,

Then later that same day, when BBC Scotland's Nick Eardly

Well, I'll be speaking to the leader of Scottish Labour shortly,

First though, joining me now from the Labour Conference

in Liverpool, is our Westminster Correspondent David Porter.

David, is this settled? What is the mood like there? In one sense, yes,

it settle things but in another sense, it settles nothing at all.

Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected as Labour leader with a slightly

increased share of the vote, from 59% last year to almost 62% this

year. But what it does not settle is the fact that as far as he is

concerned, with most of his MPs, he is in effect in a loveless marriage.

They did not like him before the vote and they do not like him now.

They do not think he is the right person to leave the party. The

leadership question has been settled that does change anything. We will

probably, as far as Jeremy Corbyn in the vast majority of his MPs are

concerned, we're going to be in for a period of trench warfare. Jeremy

Corbyn has said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He wants to talk to

MPs. Many MPs say they would only in effect look at him differently if he

was to meet them halfway and perhaps grant elections to be shadow cat in

it, so that members of the PLP would have some say in who was in Jeremy

Corbyn's top team. It would be for leaders to decide how he dished out

those portfolios. But the feeling here in Liverpool is that yes, there

has been some clarity, but not nearly enough clarity that many in

the party few they need to move forward. Is there any sense of

humility among the people on the Owen Smith signed, which includes

most MPs, who, after all, have lost heavily and have lost even more

heavily than they lost last year, is there any sense among them off,

well, let's give Jeremy Corbyn a chance to see what he can do? I

think there is a sense of feeling that we are where we are and many

MPs are now saying Jeremy Corbyn has been re-elected, as you say, with an

increased majority, Owen Smith and been re-elected, as you say, with an

his supporters thought they could do better, they were comprehensively

beaten and Owen Smith and his supporters will have to make the

most of it and make the best of it as they see fit. You do get the

impression there are perhaps two conferences here in Liverpool. One,

starting in the conference behind me, with motions and resolutions,

which will be debated on the conference for. And then a second,

separate conference, on the fringe. Meetings taking place with people

putting ideas forward as to how they can get Labour into a better

position. Jeremy Corbyn has a big personal mandate from the vast

majority of Labour membership, but you look at opinion polls and there

is no sign that he is cutting through. It has been an interesting

48 hours in Liverpool. My colleague has been looking at what has been

going on here in Liverpool. Jeremy Corbyn is elected leader of

the Labour Party. Years back. This time, with a bigger mandate. Despite

claims he did not lead Labour to power, there was not much doubt in

Liverpool yesterday that Jeremy Corbyn would beat Alan Smith. A

thumbs up from him from 60% of those who voted. The light for his

supporters, the light applause from those who backed his opponent. Many

may have seen this as a foregone conclusion but how the Labour Party

reunites is less clear. Starting with other leaders across the UK.

Kezia Dugdale, who said last month, Jeremy Corbyn could not win a

general election. She backed his challenger. The only person that can

unite the UK Labour Party in my view is Alan Smith. Six weeks can be a

long time in politics. -- the only person in my view is Owen Smith. I

believe a united Labour Party can win a general election. Led by

Jeremy Corbyn? Course. We will unite to do that. Mr Corbyn's supporters

are confident he can win. We will move on for the benefit of the party

and the people we represent. That is key. We have to get back on the

and the people we represent. That is front foot and get organised and

take on the Tories at Westminster. And the SNP and the Tories in

Scotland. Can Jeremy Corbyn win the next election? Yes. In Scotland?

Yes. Not everyone here is back to being best friends. The main issues

and personalities have caused such a device of summer and are still

there. How does the party move on? One suggestion is that there is key

players who left the Labour front bench comeback. Some are only

prepared to do that if there are elections to be. For now, Mr

Gordon's supporters are not convinced. Leaving aside whether or

not there should be election to the Shadow Cabinet, people who say I

cannot come back unless there is an election, I don't understand that.

They would say that the Dean elected they have a mandate. A mandate to do

what? Demanded by Jeremy? No! We do it as a team. We do it in an

atmosphere of trust. If Jeremy wants you to be in the Shadow Cabinet,

frankly, you should say yes. Even as Labour tries to come together, key

differences remain. Who, in the party, is prepared to kiss and make

up? Kezia Dugdale now joins me from the

Labour Party conference Good morning, Kezia Dugdale. Do you

have confidence in Jeremy Corbyn? I am delighted and I congratulated

Jeremy Corbyn yesterday on his victory. The job now for the Labour

Party is to unite behind him. I believe he can unite the Labour

Party. He has to want to do that and equally, my colleagues, Labour MPs

spinster, need to want that too. It is easy to say those words but it is

time for unity. Making it happen is what happens next. I am committed to

do that because I want a Labour Government. I get up every morning

fighting for that. At what the Tories are doing to our country. The

chaos that Brexit has caused, attacks on the welfare system, the

chaos that Brexit has caused, Social Security... All right... We

have to have a United Labour Party to defeat the Labour Government.

When you were asked by Victoria Derbyshire after the announcement of

the results yesterday, after seeing Jeremy Corbyn's chances were slim,

you then said you did stand by it because it was written down? It is

clear what comments I have made. But when you listen to Jeremy Corbyn

yesterday, he said he wants to wipe the slate clean. He has a mandate

from the party. We saw light yesterday. He has convinced the

Labour Party can lead it. Now, his job is to convince the country can

lead it. I want to help him do that. I am committed to doing that. To

working with Jeremy Corbyn to achieve that end. As I say to you,

it is what I have wanted my whole entire life. I want to be part of

helping Jeremy Corbyn do that. I want to help him unite the party.

That is what we must focus on now. But an hour later, after saying

that, you said that Jeremy Corbyn could lead Labour to victory in a

general election. It can't be true simultaneously that there is a slim

to nonexistent chance of Jeremy Corbyn winning with Labour, which

you say you stick by, and of course, he can lead Labour to victory in a

general election? Can you explain? I have been absolutely consistent,

Gordon. Let me say it again. I believe Jeremy Corbyn can unite the

Labour Party. He has to want to do it. The reality of making it happen

is the job of us all to do next. He have to want to unite the party and

equally, my Labour MP colleagues must want it to. That is what we're

focused on. We want to unite the party and I want to play my role in

doing that. I want a United Labour Party, committed to taking on and

Government. For all those reasons I outlined to you, the chaos of

Brexits... I'm sorry... I'm sorry, you say you being clear and

consistent. In which logical universe is saying that Jeremy

Corbyn's chances of winning a general election are slim to

nonexistent and I stick by that comment and then saying, of course,

Jeremy Corbyn can win a general election? In which logical universe

are those statements clear and consistent? Let me put it this way,

divided parties do not win elections. That is why Trinity is so

important. The only way the leader of a Labour Party can lead us into a

general election is to unite the party. -- satisfying unity is so

important. I am committed to that. That is what I will focus on. I saw

Jeremy Corbyn last night and this morning. And I will concentrate on

unifying the party. The only person that wants to drag us to the past is

you, Gordon. When you wrote your comment that Jeremy Corbyn... We

have been found this so many times! You have not answered the question.

Will you not wrong? I have been absolutely clear. We had an election

leadership contest. That is concluded. Jeremy Corbyn has a

mandate... He had a mandate before! His duty is to unite the Labour

Party and I believe he can do that but he must want to do it. I will

work with him to that end. Labour MPs have to do likewise. The job of

unifying the party continues because only a United party can win an

election. I believe the Labour Party can win a general election as a

United fighting forced to take on the Tories. That is what I will

spend every aspiring to do. I will work with Jeremy Corbyn to do it.

You see, the problem here is that you say you want to rebuild trust

with voters. And that you want politicians who are open and honest.

Yet you are trying to claim that to flatly contradictory views that you

have expressed within the last 24 hours on Jeremy Corbyn, are somehow

not contradictory and somehow that in some weird psychological work of

meeting even raised the issue? You have been flatly contradicting

yourself! I do not accept that for second, Gordon.

And I wanted everybody wants is even with a united and unified Labour

Party. I'm going to play my role in achieving that end. By going to work

Jeremy Corbyn to do that. In graduate with Labour MPs do that. I

go to work with our whole movement to achieve that is up we get the

Tories out of office. The target young people into work. That is how

we create opportunities for young people. Those values and

opportunities the drive everybody are the ones that we will put the

foreign and exudates. There's a try and reconcile your contradictory

statements. What you could argue is that something has changed. Gordon,

you need some new questions. I'm sure this is boring for your voters

of Europe viewers. What is James? Only a few weeks ago there is no

leadership contest. He won the contest yesterday. He has a mandate

from the leadership. He needs to convince the country that he can

win. I want to help them do that was only United Labour Party can do

that. That is why it is so important. The duty is on everybody.

That is what we're going to focus on. Do you think it was wise for you

with the benefit of hindsight to take such a strong position during

the campaign saying that Corbyn could not leave Labour to victory

and backing Owen Smith when you are leader of the Scottish Labour Party?

Would it not have been wiser for you to stand above the fray and say it

is not appropriate for me to take position one way or another. I don't

accept that. I have a vote in this leadership contest. I chose to

exercise it and they chose to speak out. I did so once during that

leadership contest. Throughout my entire political life, I have always

stood up for and said what I believe to be right. I think people expect

that from people who put themselves into public positions and C delete

political parties. I express my view once. That is now over and I'm

utterly committed to uniting the party. Only United parties can win

elections. Do you think Jeremy Corbyn camp the free of challenge

until his next general election? I can't believe you are the one posing

a question about another challenge to his leadership. I am saying to

you the he has a mandate that should be respected. The way that we

respect that mandate is by uniting as a party and getting behind. The

responsibility to unite is Jeremy Corbyn and on his parliamentary

colleagues. I want to win the general election. Every single

person at this conference was to win that election because we see the

destruction and chaos of the Tories do to work in community every day. I

want them out of office. The way to achieve that is to get the Tories

out of Government and win an election. The answer to my last

question was no then? Gordon cost I don't know what you don't

understand. I am talking about a United Labour Party. What I want

more than anything is to get the Tories out. Creates amazing

more than anything is to get the opportunities for young people.

Labour governments transform the country and make them more equal and

fair. Whether that is lifting hundreds of thousands of children

out of poverty, helping pensioners. Delivering things I became in a

sack. The Tories are hell-bent on destroying the Human Rights Act.

Only if we are in power can arguments. I am clearly too

dim-witted to understand your clarity, Kezia Dugdale. Could you

providers with a sentence to help us understand? I want any Corbyn's

mandate to bees respected and I want a united party. I'm committed to

creating a United Labour Party. Should the members of the Shadow

Cabinet who left in protest against Corbyn's leadership, and do you

supported, now rejoin? That Iraq who you support it. I think there is a

case for some subtle form of Shadow Cabinet elections. I think that

would be a great signal that Jeremy consent of those MPs. Equally, I

think they need to have a solidarity to the mandate the Jeremy Corbyn's

have just received. Everybody has a responsibility to make this work. I

want to make this work. I've said this countless times on this

programme. Only United parties can win elections. The way to get the

Tories out of office is to stand up to a more equal country and be

united. You think members who resigned from the Shadow Cabinet

should rejoin it even if Jeremy Corbyn doesn't concede Shadow

Cabinet connections? -- elections. I think the something for people to

discuss on its own merits. The focus needs to be on the Labour Party. I

would like to see people who have stepped away to come back, but they

have to believe that Jeremy Corbyn equally have two unite the party.

They said at the beginning of this interview, it is easy to say unity,

but it is hard to couldn't practice. I am committed to doing my bit of

making up work. I saw him last night and I met him again this morning. I

will work closely with him as I always have done to make it work. I

think that is what your viewers expect. The United Labour Party

committed to taking on an defeating that Tories. You think Iain Murray

should rejoin the Shadow Cabinet? I think that he has said that he would

be delighted to rejoin if there were elections to rejoin. Do you think

you should rejoin? Is absolutely a matter for Ian Murray. Yes, but

neither of the -- as leader of the Scottish Labour Party surely you

have a view? Would you like to see him backing Mr Cabinet? Well, he is

already back in my Shadow Cabinet. He plays an excellent role might

seem highlighting the issues that affect Scots from Westminster from

my Cabinet. With designs to do with the next UK Shadow Cabinet, but he

my Cabinet. With designs to do with is up to him. Given your backing for

elections to the Shadow Cabinet, to Jeremy Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet,

there aren't any elections to your own Shadow Cabinet. Presumably you

will be introducing them forthwith? This is a historical? Than anything.

will be introducing them forthwith? There has been a history of having

elections are the Shadow Cabinet. That is what the debate is about

now. Should there be a return to the? There is no such history of

doing and the Scottish arm to the Mac parliament. I've not heard

anybody calling for that. If you look at my Shadow Cabinet, there is

a great deal of strength from all aspects of the party. Holding the

SNP to account. We are doing that with considerably success. Before

you do the highlighting... We are leading the charge to stop the SNP

closing many hospital services that they are promising to keep open just

before the election. Why you seriously arguing that you would

demand that Jeremy Corbyn introduces elections for his team, but you

think it is a bad thing for view? I using that you are against elections

to your own team? I did not make the collection on your programme. -- I

did not make that demand on your programme. I did not demand Shadow

Cabinet elections. I made it very clear what the domains of those

conferences. Are you against elections to your own team? It is

not a proposal that anybody is asking for Ford. I've got a very

strong, gender balanced Cabinet. I've got a great continuing the

highlighting the difference between the richest and poorest kids in our

schools. Together we are the one party in Scotland who have a very

schools. Together we are the one clear pan to stop the SNP and the

Tory's cuts. It is only the Labour Party who says that there should be

no cuts to public services in Scotland. Jeremy Corbyn Exley spoke

about the manifesto committee said it was a radical and progressive

manifesto in the best traditions of Labour's history. That message is

one that we are going to take Labour's history. That message is

through the next five years of the Parliament under my leadership.

Other any circumstances where you would vote for another independence

referendum? Know. I've said many times to you that the position of

this artist Labour Party manifesto was to oppose a second independence

referendum in our lifetime. Ian Murray said over the weekend that he

is not sure about what the UK Labour's party's position is in an

electoral alliance with the SNP. To quote what Ian Murray said, Jeremy

seems to be all over the place on it. Is he right to be concerned? Or

seems to be all over the place on are you any more clear? Jeremy

Corbyn have been very clear that in order to be a Labour Government that

has to be a comeback for Labour in Scotland. Jeremy is utterly

committed to that. He is working so frequently with me and campaigning

with me. Jeremy Corbyn understands that we need Labour MPs in Scotland

to deliver that across the whole of the United Kingdom. He accept the

reality about. What I would say to you wouldn't is that we have a very

significant by-election result in Trowbridge where we took a --

Coatbridge that took a seat of the SNP. It is very easy for people to

say that we do not win in the heartlands any more. That is a big

message of opposing posterity and investing in public services. That

is a message that Jeremy Corbyn and I are absolutely united in working

together for. You're going to see more of that in the weeks and months

ahead. Why is it that Ian Murray, despite this magnificent result in

Coatbridge... You have got so many questions about Ian Murray, why

don't you get him on the programme? I just wonder whether you are clear

that Jeremy Corbyn is not going to have any form of alliance with the

SNP? I have been absolutely explicit to you that I have spoken to Jeremy

Corbyn about this and that he understands the way to deliver a

Corbyn about this and that he Labour Government across the UK

means standing up for public services and talking about how we

used the powers of our incredibly Scottish powerful Scottish

Parliament. I believe it will continue to do that. Jeremy and I

are very omitted to that anti-austerities message. We have

the powers to say to the SNP coming you have the power to not make the

cuts, why don't use? I thought Nicola Sturgeon came into power to

stop these cuts. But she is just doing what the Tories are doing. She

takes Tories cuts, doubles and passes them on. That is why social

care, they care that our elderly get is at the state it is in. That is

why the gaps between the richest and poorest kids in our schools are

stubborn as it is. That is our NHS service are in disrepair. This

reimagines. This truly matters. I wish we had spoken about it. I wish

we had spoken about it through the summer, but you had a leadership

campaign. Could you give me an example of a policy where you want

to have a different policy in Scotland than the UK Labour Party?

Gordon, this is fundamentally about having the ability to have a

different policy position. One notably is the one we had a party

conference last October around Trident. This is one part of our

autonomy proposals which makes it very clear from the beginning that

the policies we develop in Scotland from a party membership from a team

and Scottish Government and Scottish councils. It is made in Scotland for

the purpose of standing up the people in Scotland. That is going to

be very clear because of these autonomy proposals. I have to say

that the details of these autonomy proposals have been long-standing

for the last 12 months. Either very closely with Jeremy Corbyn for them.

Some of the detail, we have been waiting for five years to get it in.

I'm going to be very excited to see those go to the conference.

Apologies to you and to the delay we have on the line.

All the Scottish parties agree the current system

Where they disagree is in what to do about it.

Suggestions range from total abolition and replacement,

to tweaking and the re-banding of properties.

Ten months after the all-party Commission on Local Tax Reform

Is there any sign that it will, any time soon?

Our homes. Whether we are renters or mortgage donors, they are usually

our biggest financial outlay. Alongside the bricks and mortar,

there is also the associated costs. Insurance coming utilities of

there is also the associated costs. course, and council tax. This week,

Holyrood debated the tax which provided a swollen under Government

income, but could leave a big hole in our wallets. The Government has

plans to make those in the top four bands pay more. This estate agent

says the tax is grossly outdated, but change can be unsettling. Any

change to the property market, the residential property market that is

always there pot of gold. Any change brings a lot of fear. Actually, it

always has an effect on the market. The market always forces. The market

still has a fragility post 2007. It has not come out of it yet.

On Thursday, an amendment was backed which said it undermined local

accountability. When it came to the final decision, the Government won

by one vote. The Government narrowly avoided defeat because although

Kezia Dugdale said she cast a vote, that vote was not registered. But

this is the first step down the road for the Government. MSPs must still

agree to changes in the amounts paid in the four highest council tax

bands. The question is, will they force the Government to change

direction? The extra money garnered from those rises in band e-H, is

designed to tackle the attainment gap in schools. Parties say

education is a priority but said that local authorities are being cut

out. COSLA says the decision to use income raised from council tax to

pay for a national policy break the link between local taxation and

local services. The Government says the educational attainment gap is

the most important issue facing the country. We're talking about the

education of our children. We could not be thinking of anything better.

Another thing I am surprised about, political opponents. They complain

about this hundred million pounds going straight to the education of

children, I would've thought that was something the Green Party, the

Lib Dems, the Labour Party would have been completely in favour of.

Opposition parties by to the SNP promised for years to council tax.

They have their own ideas about what should happen. The Conservative

support higher charges. For some bands. Labour want properties worth

?190,000 to pay a flat rate. Plus a percentage of the property value.

Those were the morbid attract a higher rate. The Lib Dems are

interested in the idea of a land tax. People who improve properties

would not be penalised. But perhaps it is the Green Party which has

stuck its neck out the furthest. In the long term, they want to replace

council tax with a tax on the value of the property, reassessed and

you're late, with the rate set by local councils. In the short term,

they insist that property values must be updated. We need a

re-evaluation of council taxes. There seems to be universal

agreement we cannot go on using property values of 1991. If you bear

for quarter of a century, some people will be facing higher bills.

But we do not separate based on that. We phase it in over five or

ten years. We allow deferrals. So, people with large bills, living in a

large property, can defer that until they sell or until they die, in some

cases. MSPs will soon vote on Government proposals. Politicians

should be aware when thinking of local funding. It has been the

undoing of some political titans. It's time to look back at the events

of the past week and see what's Joing me now from Liverpool

are the former Labour MP for West Dunbartonshire, Gemma Doyle

and The Herald's Westminster First of all, I apologise in

retrospect for Kezia Dugdale, there was a bad delay. I want to apologise

in advance. Can you give us a sense of what you think is going on? The

mantra coming out is let's unite, let's wipe the slate clean. Do you

believe the MPs who fought so bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all

summer are really prepared to do bitterly against Jeremy Corbyn all

that? In one word, no. But it does not look as if the other side are

prepared to do that either. You're right, the word coming out is unity.

prepared to do that either. You're I would say both sides are about as

united as warring football teams. They might be in the same family

that their daggers drawn. Within a couple of hours of winning, Jeremy

that their daggers drawn. Within a Corbyn moved against a Scottish

member on Labour's ruling body and Labour MPs on the other side of the

argument are suggesting to each other that if they going to Jeremy

Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet without waiting and without forcing him to

agree to Shadow Cabinet elections, that then they won't get votes from

their colleagues in those elections in the future. The word "Scab" is

being used. Pickets being crossed. Gemma Doyle, remind us, were you

supporting Owen Smith or Jeremy Corbyn? I was a supporter of Owen

Smith. I think it looks as though he won the vote in Scotland, small

consolation. He did really well in Scotland. But Jeremy Corbyn's

mandate has been increased. That is presumably not such a good thing

from your point of view? Indeed. But what needs to happen now is we need

to see what Jeremy will do with his mandate. Elections to Shadow Cabinet

is important. One criticism of Jeremy has been there is a lot of

talk and not much action. If he wants to unite the party, I think

that is one way he could reach out to members of the PLP and to show

members across the party he really is serious. Why should he concede

these elections because the only reason people of her persuasion are

asking for them is because you know the Parliamentary Labour Party is

hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like demanding that just after winning a

hostile to Jeremy Corbyn. It is like huge mandate, Jeremy Corbyn should

agree to something which will limit his effectiveness. Why on earth

should you want to do that? Because he still has a fundamental problem,

which is that he does not have the support of the majority of the PLP.

And they have been vocal in their criticism. That will not disappear

overnight. He has to do something practical. It is not ideal. To be

electing the Shadow Cabinet meeting. But he needs to do something

concrete and practical to show he is serious about uniting the party.

That is why he needs to do it. By kicking it into the long grass,

further down the road, to have another meeting of the NEC in a few

weeks or whatever that if he is talking about now, I think that is a

mistake because MPs will return to Parliament and this issue will

mistake because MPs will return to unresolved. I'm curious what you

make of this. Gemma Doyle says, a decision must be made. But actually,

what's behind this new demand is this not just a variation of what

the complaints about Jeremy Corbyn where about all along? There are two

completely different views on the Labour Party. One, that the Labour

Party should be responsive to its members. There talk on the Jeremy

Corbyn said of members electing shadow can. And the idea that MPs

have some autonomy because they are responsible to their electorates.

Usually, they muddle along but they have now come into absolute

contradiction. They have and in doing so, what we're getting is

flexing of muscles. What we will probably find out in the next couple

of weeks is how strong both sides are. You're absolutely right. Jeremy

Corbyn has strengthened his power but he still problems. One of the

reasons he is moving on the ruling body as he is trying to strengthen

his power there. Gemma is correct. He does need MPs in order to get

things done in the House of Commons. They have a certain amount of power.

In the middle, what is raising its head, as always, is personal

ambition. Some Labour MPs are considering going back into Jeremy

Corbyn's Shadow Cabinet. Some of them, it has to be said, because of

personal ambition. But I don't want to suggest that is the only reason.

Lots of people behind the scenes are also suggesting the need to do so

for the sake of the party. For the sake of the future of the party. And

even just an argument among the moderates as to whether supporting

Jeremy, let his side of the argument when, or prevent his side of the

argument winning. And that is still an ongoing debate. Gemma Doyle,

argument winning. And that is still have said you want to see elections

to the shadow can. If these do not happen, and there have been

indications there might be some halfway house, so there could be

some compromise, I mean, can you see Labour over the next year or two

realistically coming together after all the bitterness we have seen over

the summer? I think the honest answer is nobody knows whether that

will happen or not. There are real deep divisions now in the Labour

Party about how the party should operate, what it should do in

Parliament, there are people in the Labour Party now who are, sorry,

losing my earpiece, who are not bothered about winning the next

election. That is a fundamental problem for a party in Parliament.

So, sorry... We can hear you. Go on. That's fine. I think the question

was, is the party going to That's fine. I think the question

over the next year. It remains to be seen as the honest answer. But as I

say, Jeremy will have to offer some practical solutions as to how he

will work in Parliament because at the moment, he can't really function

with the front bench that he has. He has people doing more than one job.

He has a Shadow Secretary of State for Scotland who is not Scottish,

you know, he has ministers who are failing to put down amendments to

bills, so, it is not working at the moment. He needs practical

solutions. Because one of the extraordinary things, Kate, about

this, is that actually there has been very little talk about policy,

has there? Owen Smith's campaign, in terms of the former political

positions, was much the same as terms of the former political

Jeremy Corbyn's. What people must be met be used by this. -- a lot of

people must be amused by this. No, I don't think that's true. I think

Jeremy Corbyn has realised that before he attempted to change party

policy he first had to strengthen his position within the party. And

that proved incredibly difficult. He spent a year attempting to do that

and ultimately failed, when 50 members of his Shadow Cabinet walked

out on him. But he has hinted at the policies he wants to change. He

wants to change the party position on nuclear weapons and on Trident.

Sorry to interrupt but we are out of time. Again, apologies for the

delays in the line. That is all from.