14/09/2014 Sunday Politics South East


14/09/2014

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics, coming to you live from Edinburgh.

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Terrorists who use the name Islamic State have carried out

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their threat to murder the British aid worker, David Haines.

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They released a video late last night, showing a masked man

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beheading Mr Haines, who was taken captive in Syria 18 months ago.

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The jihadist group have already beheaded two American journalists.

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Now it's threatening the life of a second British hostage.

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David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil.

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As we speak he's chairing a meeting of the Cabinet's COBRA

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President Obama said the US stood shoulder to shoulder

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Alex Salmond says Scotland "stands on the cusp of history" as

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he predicts a historic and substantial victory in

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As the latest polls show the two sides neck and neck,

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I'll ask Yes campaigner and socialist Tommy Sheridan about his

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And after last week's last-minute interventions from Gordon Brown

:01:37.:01:44.

David Cameron, Ed Miliband and big business, I'll ask

:01:45.:01:46.

In the Southeast: As the prdssures it's enough to win over waverers.

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In the Southeast: As the prdssures rise from desperate migrants trying

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step closer back to Parliament. Is it a lame-duck administration?

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Late last night, as most folk were preparing for bed, news broke that

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Islamic State extremists had carried out their threat to murder the

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The group released a video, similar to the ones in which two American

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journalists were decapitated, showing a masked man apparently

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beheading Mr Haines who was taken captive in Syria last year.

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The terrorist, who has a southern British accent,

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also threatened the life of a second hostage from the UK

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Mr Haines is the third Westerner to be killed

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His family have paid tribute to his humanitarian work; they say he

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David Cameron described the murder as an act of pure evil, and said

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his heart went out to Mr Haines family, who had shown extraordinary

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Mr Cameron went on to say, "We will do everything in our power

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to hunt down these murderers and ensure they face justice,

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Mr Haines was born in England and brought up in Scotland.

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Scottish First Minister Alex Salmond condemned the killing on the Marr

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Well, it's an act of unspeakable barbarism that we have seen.

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Obviously our condolences go to the family members of David Haynes who

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have borne this with such fortitude in recent months -- David

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Alex Salmond was also asked whether he supported military action

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Haines there is no reason to believe whatsoever that China or Russia or

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any country will see their will to deal with this barbarism. There is a

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will for effective, international, legal action but it must come in

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that fashion, and I would urge that to be a consideration to develop a

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collective response to what is a threat to humanity.

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Our security correspondent Gordon Corera joins me now

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Gordon, as we speak, the Cobra emergency meeting is meeting yet

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again. It meets a lot these days. I would suggest that the options

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facing this committee and Mr Cameron are pretty limited. That's right. I

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think they are extremely limited. They have been all along in these

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hostage situations. We know, for instance, that British government

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policy is not to pay ransom is to kidnappers. Other Europeans states

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are thought to have done so to get hostages released, and also not to

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make substantive policy concessions to the groups, so while there might

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be contact, there won't be a lot of options left. We know the US in the

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past has looked at rescue missions and in July on operation to free the

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hostages, landing at the oil facility in Syria but finding no one

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there. If you look at the options, they are not great. That is the

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difficult situation which Cobra will have been discussing the last hour.

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Does this make it more likely, because it might have the direction

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the government was going in any way, that we join with the Americans in

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perhaps the regional allies in air strikes against Islamic State, not

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just in Iraq, but also in Syria We heard from President Obama outlining

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his strategy against Islamic State last week when he talked about

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building a coalition, about authorising air strikes. And

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training troops. We are still waiting to hear what exact role the

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UK will play in that. We know it will play a role because it has been

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arming the fishmonger forces but the question is, will it actually

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conduct military strikes in Iraq -- arming the passion are there. We

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have not got a clear answer from government and that is something

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where they are ours to discuss what was around the table. It's possible

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we might learn some more today as a result of the Cobra meeting, but I

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think the government will be wanting to not be seen to suddenly rushed to

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a completely different policy as a result of one incident, however

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terrible it is. Whether it hardens their reserve -- resolved to play

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more active role in the coalition, that's possible, but we have to wait

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see to get the detail. -- wait and see. What the whole country would

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like to see would be British and American special forces going in and

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getting these guys. I think that would unite the nation. But that is

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very difficult, isn't it? It is As you saw with a rescue mission a few

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months ago, the problem is getting actionable intelligence on the

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ground at a particular moment. The theory is that the group of

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kidnappers are moving the hostages may be even every or few days, so

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you need intelligence and quickly and then you need to be able to get

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the team onto the ground into that time frame. That is clearly a

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possibility and something they will be looking at, but it certainly

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challenging, particularly when you have a group like this operating

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within its own state, effectively, and knowing that other people are

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looking very hard for it and doing everything they can to hide. Gordon,

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thank you very much. Clegg dropped everything and headed

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to Scotland when a poll last Sunday gave the YES vote its first ever

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lead in this prolonged referendum If their reaction looked

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like panic, that's because it was. Until last weekend,

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though the polls had been narrowing, the consensus was still that NO

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would carry the day. The new consensus is that

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it's too close to call. If we look back at the beginning of

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the year, public opinion in Scotland was fairly settled. The no campaign

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had a commanding lead across the opinion polls, excluding the

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undecided voters. At one point, at the end of last year, an average of

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63% backed the no campaign and only 37% supported a yes vote. As we move

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into 2014 and up to this week, you can see a clear trend emerging as

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the lead for the no campaign gets narrower and narrower and the

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average of the most recent polls has the contest hanging in the balance.

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There was a poll a week ago that put the Yes campaign in the lead for the

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first time, 51% against 49%, but that lead was not reflected in the

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other polls last week. For polls were published last night, one by

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Salvation, for the macro-2 campaign -- Better Together campaign, and

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there was another that gave a one percentage point different. ICM have

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the yes campaign back in the lead at 54% and the no campaign at 46%, but

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their sample size was 705 Scottish adults, smaller than usual. Another

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suggests that the contest remains on a knife edge with 49.4% against

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50.6%. When fed into the poll of polls the figures average out with

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yes at 49% and polls -- no at 5 %. But some people think 18% are

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undecided, and it is how they vote gets -- when they get to the polling

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booths that could make all the difference.

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campaigner and Respect Party MP George Galloway.

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Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Big business, big oil, big banks, the

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Tories, the Orange order, all against Scottish independence. You

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sure you are on right side? Yes because the interests of working

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people are in staying together. This is a troubled moment in a marriage,

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a very long marriage, in which some good things and bad things have been

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achieved together. And there is no doubt that the crockery is being

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thrown around the house of the minute. But I believe that the

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underlying interests of working people are on working on the

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relationship rather than divorce. I have been divorced. It's a very

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messy, acrimonious, bitter affair and it's particularly bad for the

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children will stop that's why I am here. You talk about working people,

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and particularly Scottish working people, they seem to have concluded

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that the social democracy they want to create cannot now be done in a UK

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context. Why should they not have a shot of going it alone? Because the

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opposite will happen. Separation will cause a race to the bottom in

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taxation. Alex Salmond has already announced he will cut the taxes on

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companies, corporation tax, down to 3% hello whatever it is in the rest

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of these islands. And business will only be attracted to come here,

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country of 5 million people on if there is low regulation, low public

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expenditure, low levels of taxation for them will stop you cannot have

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Scandinavian social democracy on Texan levels of taxation. The

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British government, as will be, the rest of the UK, they will race Alex

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Salmond to the bottom. If he cuts it by three, they will cut it by four.

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And so on. So whether some people cannot see it clearly yet or not,

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the interests of the working people on both sides of the border would be

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gravely damaged by separation. Let's take the interest of the working

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people. As you know, as well as anyone, the coalition is in

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fermenting both a series of cuts and reforms in welfare, and labour,

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Westminster Labour, has only limited plans to reverse any of that. Surely

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if you want to preserve the welfare state as it is, independence is the

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way to do it. For the reasons I just explain, I don't believe that. But

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Ed Miliband will be along in a minute. He will be along in May The

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polls indicate... They say he is only four or 5%, that is the

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average. Like the referendum, the next general election could be nip

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and tuck. I don't, myself, think that the time of David Cameron as

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Prime Minister is for much longer. I think there will be a Labour

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government in the spring and the Labour government in London and a

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stronger Scottish Parliament, super Devo Max, that is now on the table.

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That is the best arrangement of people in the country. But the

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people of Scotland surely cannot base a decision on independence on

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your feeling that Labour might win the next general election. It is my

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feeling. When the Tories were beaten on the bedroom tax last week in the

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house, it was written all over the faces of the government side not

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only that they were headed for defeat, but probably a massive fishy

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-- Fisher. I think the race to the bottom that I have proper size will

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mean that the welfare state will be a distant memory quite soon. The

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cuts and the run on the Scottish economy here in Edinburgh, the

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financial services industry, that will be gravely damage. The Ministry

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of Defence jobs in Scotland decimated, probably ended, more or

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less. It will be a time of cuts and austerity, maybe super austerity in

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an independent Scotland. You mentioned defence. What about

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nuclear weapons? The Tories and Labour will keep them. You are

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against them. Surely the only way to be rid of them in Scotland is by

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independence. But you are not rid of them by telling them down the river.

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The danger would be the same -- telling them down the river. The

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danger would be the same. Nuclear radiation does not respect Alex

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Salmond's national boundaries. They would be committed to immediately

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joining NATO, which is bristling with nuclear weapons and is what --

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involved in wars across the Atlantic. So anyone looking for a

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peace option will have to elect a government in Britain as a whole

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that will get rid of nuclear weapons and get out of military

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entanglements. We are in one again now. I have been up the whole night,

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till 5am, dealing with some of the consequences and implications of the

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grave international matter that you opened the show with. David Haines

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and the fate of the hostage still in their hands. There are many other

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hostages as well. And there are many people dying who are neither British

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nor American. I have, somehow, been drawn into this matter. And it

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showed me, again, that the world is interdependent. It is absolutely

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riven with division and hatred, and this is the worst possible time to

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be opting out of the world to set up a small mini-state on the promises

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of Alex Salmond of social democracy funded by Texan taxes. Let's, for

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the sake of the next question, assume that everything you have told

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us is true. Why is your side squandering a 20 point lead?

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I will have a great deal to say about that, whatever the result

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This is very much a Scottish Labour project, is that not a condemnation

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of Scottish Labour? It is potentially on its deathbed. The

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country breaking up, the principal responsibility will be on them. And

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the pitiful, absolutely pitiful job that has been made of defending a

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300-year-old relationship in this island by the Scottish Labour

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leadership is really terrible for me to behold, even though I'm no longer

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one of them. I don't know how they are going to get out of this

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deathbed. Do you agree that if this referendum is lost by your side it

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will be because traditional working-class Labour voters,

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particularly in the west of Scotland, have abundant Labour and

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decided to vote for independence? Without a doubt, the number of

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Labour voters intending to vote yes is disturbingly high. Even just

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months ago during the European Parliament elections, swathes of

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people who didn't vote SNP will be voting yes on Thursday. That is a

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grave squandering of a great legacy of Scottish Labour history, which

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history will decree as unforgivable. If Labour is to get

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out of its deathbed in Scotland it will have to become Labour again.

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Real Labour again. I am ready to help them with that. My goodness,

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they need help with it. I wonder if it isn't just a failure of Labour in

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Scotland. People all over Britain are increasingly fed up with the

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Westminster system, but it is only the Scots who currently have the

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chance to break free from it, so why shouldn't they? That is exactly

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right. They see a parliament of expenses cheats led by Lord snooty

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and the Bullingdon club elite, carrying through austerity for many

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but not for themselves and they are repulsed by it. They need change,

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but you can go backwards and call it change but it will be worse than the

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situation you have now. A lot of Scottish people don't buy that. It

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is a big gamble. If I were poised to put my family's life savings on the

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roulette table in Las Vegas, my wife would not be scaremongering if she

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pointed out the potential consequences if I'd lost. She would

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not be negative by telling me that is my children's money I am risking.

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If I jumped off this roof it would change my point of view, but it

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would be worse than the point of view I have now. There is another

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issue here because the Scots are being asked to gamble on the

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Westminster parties, which they are already suspicious of, of delivering

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home rule. Alistair Darling could not even tell me if Ed Balls had

:19:33.:19:38.

signed off on more income tax powers for Scotland, so that is a gamble

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for the Scots. I feel the British state has had such a shake out of

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all this that they would be beyond idiots, they would be insane now to

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risk all of this flaring up again because whatever happens, if we win

:19:56.:19:59.

on Thursday, it is going to be narrowly. It will be a severe

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fissure in Scotland. A great deal of unpleasantness that we are already

:20:06.:20:11.

aware of. That could turn but we're still. It would be dicing with

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death, playing with fire, to let Scottish people down after Thursday

:20:18.:20:23.

if we narrowly win. If you narrowly win, and if there are moves to this

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home rule Mr Brown has been talking about, England hasn't spoken yet on

:20:30.:20:33.

this. Whilst England would probably not want to stop -- stop Scotland

:20:34.:20:40.

getting this, they would say, what about us? It could delay the whole

:20:41.:20:49.

procedure. It is necessary, you are right. England should have home

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rule, and I screamed at Scottish Labour MPs going into the vote to

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introduce tuition fees in England. I told them this was a constitutional

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monstrosity, as well as a crime against young people in England It

:21:05.:21:11.

was risking everything. We are led by idiots. Our leaders are not James

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Bonds, they are Austin powers. We need to change the leadership, not

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rip up a 300-year-old marriage. Thank you.

:21:24.:21:29.

It's been one of the longest and hardest fought political campaigns

:21:30.:21:31.

in history, with Alex Salmond firing the starting gun on the referendum

:21:32.:21:35.

Adam's been stitching together the key moments of the campaign

:21:36.:21:46.

It is the other thing drawing people to the Scottish parliament, the new

:21:47.:21:52.

great tapestry of Scotland. It is the story of battles won and lost,

:21:53.:21:59.

Scottish moments, British moments, famous Scots, and not so famous

:22:00.:22:03.

Scots. There is even a panel dedicated to the rise of the SNP.

:22:04.:22:10.

Alex Salmond's majority in the elections in 2011 made the

:22:11.:22:14.

referendum inevitable. It became reality when he and David Cameron

:22:15.:22:19.

did a deal in Edinburgh one year later. The Scottish Government set

:22:20.:22:24.

out its plans for independence in this book, just a wish list to some,

:22:25.:22:30.

a sacred text to others. This White Paper is the most detailed

:22:31.:22:36.

improvements that any people have ever been offered in the world as a

:22:37.:22:41.

basis for becoming an independent country. The no campaign, called

:22:42.:22:47.

Better Together, united the Tories, Labour and the Lib Dems under the

:22:48.:22:52.

leadership of Alistair Darling. Then the Scottish people were bombarded

:22:53.:22:56.

with two years of photo opportunities and a lot of

:22:57.:23:00.

campaigning. For the no campaign, Jim Murphy went on tour but took a

:23:01.:23:05.

break when he was egged and his events were often hijacked by yes

:23:06.:23:10.

campaigners who were accused of being intimidating. In turn, they

:23:11.:23:16.

accused the no campaign of using scare tactics. Things heated up when

:23:17.:23:24.

the TV dinner -- during the TV debate. Fever pitch was reached one

:23:25.:23:29.

week ago when one poll suggested the yes campaign was in the lead for the

:23:30.:23:34.

first time. The three main Westminster leaders ditched PMQs to

:23:35.:23:39.

head north. I think people can feel it is like a general election, that

:23:40.:23:43.

you make a decision and five years later you can make another decision

:23:44.:23:47.

if you are fed up with the Tories, give them a kick... This is totally

:23:48.:23:56.

different. And Labour shelved not quite 100 MPs onto the train, Alex

:23:57.:24:00.

Salmond took a helicopter instead. This is about the formation of the

:24:01.:24:05.

NHS. A big theme of the yes campaign is that changes to the NHS in Linden

:24:06.:24:15.

-- in England would lead to privatisation in Scotland. Alex

:24:16.:24:21.

Salmond's plan to share the pound was trashed by big names. There were

:24:22.:24:28.

other big question is, what would happen to military hardware like

:24:29.:24:32.

Trident based on the Clyde? Would an independent Scotland be able to join

:24:33.:24:38.

the EU? And how much oil was left underneath the North Sea?

:24:39.:24:42.

This panel is about famous Scots, we have Annie Lennox, Stephen Hendry,

:24:43.:24:50.

Sean Connery. I cannot see Gordon Brown. These are big changes we are

:24:51.:24:54.

proposing to strengthen the Scottish parliament, but at the same time to

:24:55.:25:00.

stay as part of the UK. A regular on the campaign, he was front and

:25:01.:25:03.

centre when things got close, unveiling a timetable for more

:25:04.:25:07.

devolution. People wondered whether Ed Miliband was able to reach the

:25:08.:25:12.

parts of Scotland Labour leader should reach, and at Westminster

:25:13.:25:16.

some Tories pondered whether David Cameron could stay as prime minister

:25:17.:25:21.

if there was a yes vote. This tapestry is nonpartisan so it is a

:25:22.:25:26.

good place to get away from it all but it is crystallising voters'

:25:27.:25:32.

views. Look at what we have contributed to Great Britain, and I

:25:33.:25:41.

am British and I hope to be staying British. This is what people from

:25:42.:25:44.

Scotland have done, taken to the rest of the world in many cases and

:25:45.:25:47.

I think I am going to vote yes. I am so inspired by it. It has certainly

:25:48.:25:52.

inspired me to have a go at stitching. How long do you think it

:25:53.:25:57.

would take to do the whole thing? I would say to put aside maybe 30

:25:58.:26:02.

hours of stitching. Maybe by the time I am done, we will know more

:26:03.:26:06.

about how the fabric of the nation might be changing.

:26:07.:26:10.

And I've been joined by yes campaigner and convenor

:26:11.:26:13.

of Scotland's Solidarity socialist party, Tommy Sheridan.

:26:14.:26:15.

An economy dependent on oil, the Queen as head of state, membership

:26:16.:26:27.

of the world 's premier nuclear alliance of capitalist nations is

:26:28.:26:32.

that the socialist Scotland you are fighting for? No, that is the SNP's

:26:33.:26:42.

prospectus and they are entitled to put forward their vision, but it is

:26:43.:26:47.

not mine or that of the majority of Scotland. We will find out in two

:26:48.:26:53.

years. On Thursday we are not voting for a political party, we are voting

:26:54.:26:58.

for our freedom as a country. That is why people are going to vote yes

:26:59.:27:03.

on Thursday. A lot of people are voting for what you call freedom

:27:04.:27:08.

because they think it will be more Scotland. You have already got free

:27:09.:27:13.

prescriptions, no tuition fees, free care for the elderly. You might not

:27:14.:27:18.

in future have that if public spending is overdependent on the

:27:19.:27:23.

price of oil, over which you have no control. We don't have to worry

:27:24.:27:27.

about one single resource, we already have 20% of the fishing

:27:28.:27:34.

stock in Europe. We already have 25% of the wind, wave and solar power

:27:35.:27:44.

generation. We, as an independent country, have huge resources,

:27:45.:27:49.

natural resources but also people resources. We have five first-class

:27:50.:27:54.

universities, food and beverages industry which is the envy of the

:27:55.:27:58.

world. We have the ability to produce the resources on the

:27:59.:28:02.

revenues that won't just maintain the health service and education but

:28:03.:28:06.

it will develop health and education. I don't want to stand

:28:07.:28:10.

still, I want to redistribute wealth. But all of the projections

:28:11.:28:14.

of public spending for an independent Scotland show that to

:28:15.:28:21.

keep spending at the current level you need a strong price of oil and

:28:22.:28:26.

you are dependent on this commodity which goes up and down and sideways.

:28:27.:28:33.

That is a gamble. I have got to laugh because I have been told the

:28:34.:28:37.

most pessimistic is that in 40 years the oil is running out, panic

:28:38.:28:45.

stations! If you were told by the BBC you could only guarantee

:28:46.:28:48.

employment for the next 40 years you would be over the moon. I am talking

:28:49.:28:54.

about in the next five. You need 50% of your revenues to come from oil to

:28:55.:29:00.

continue spending and that is not a guarantee. Of course it is, the

:29:01.:29:04.

minimum survival of the oil is 0 years. Please get your viewers to go

:29:05.:29:15.

onto the Internet and look at the website called oilandgas.com. The

:29:16.:29:27.

West Coast has 100 years of oil to be extracted. It hasn't been done

:29:28.:29:32.

because in 1981 Michael Heseltine said we cannot extract the oil

:29:33.:29:38.

because we have Trident going up and down there. Let's get rid of Trident

:29:39.:29:47.

and extract the oil. You are a trot right, why have you failed to learn

:29:48.:29:53.

his famous dictum, socialism in one country is impossible. Revolutions

:29:54.:29:58.

and change are not just single event. What will happen here on

:29:59.:30:02.

Thursday is a democratic revolution. The people are fed up of being

:30:03.:30:08.

patronised and lied to by this mob in Westminster who have used and

:30:09.:30:13.

abused us for far too long. The smaller people now have a voice

:30:14.:30:18.

What about socialism in one country? Mr Trotsky warned you

:30:19.:30:27.

against that. The no campaign represents the past. The yes

:30:28.:30:31.

campaign represents the future. That is the truth of the matter. What we

:30:32.:30:36.

are going to do in an independent Scotland is tackle inequality and a

:30:37.:30:44.

scourge of low pay. If we vote no on Thursday, there will be more low pay

:30:45.:30:49.

on Friday, more poverty and food banks on Friday. I'm not going to be

:30:50.:30:53.

lectured by these big banks, you vote less -- yes and we will leave

:30:54.:31:02.

the country! The food banks will be the ones closing. If you got your

:31:03.:31:09.

way, for the type of Scotland you would like to see, state control of

:31:10.:31:13.

business, nationalisation of the Manx, the roads to Carlisle will be

:31:14.:31:17.

clogged with people Yes, hoping to come into Scotland,

:31:18.:31:27.

because in their hearts, the Scottish people know that England

:31:28.:31:34.

want to see the people having the bottle. The working class people in

:31:35.:31:38.

Liverpool, Newcastle, outside of London, they are saying good on the

:31:39.:31:42.

jocks that are taking on big business. When we are independent

:31:43.:31:46.

and investing in social housing the people of England will say, we can

:31:47.:31:50.

do that as well, and they will rediscover the radical tradition. In

:31:51.:31:55.

wanting to build socialism in one country, it really means you are

:31:56.:31:58.

fighting for the few, rather than the many. You are bailing out of the

:31:59.:32:02.

socialist Battle for Britain. You think it will be easier to make it

:32:03.:32:10.

work. Think globally, act locally and we will build socialism in

:32:11.:32:14.

Scotland but I wanted across the world. I won my brothers and sisters

:32:15.:32:17.

in England and Wales to be encouraged by what we do so they can

:32:18.:32:22.

reject the Westminster consensus as well -- I want. We had the three

:32:23.:32:26.

Stooges coming up to London, three millionaires united on one thing,

:32:27.:32:30.

austerity. Doesn't matter whether Ed Miliband wins the next election he

:32:31.:32:34.

said he would stick to the story spending cuts. Why vote for Ed

:32:35.:32:39.

Miliband? You wouldn't trust him to run a bath, not a country. Let's see

:32:40.:32:43.

if this is realistic, this great socialist vision. At the last

:32:44.:32:48.

Scottish election, the Socialist party got 8000 votes. The

:32:49.:32:50.

Conservatives got 30 times more votes. Where is the appetite in

:32:51.:32:57.

Scotland for your Marxist ideology question we might not win it. But do

:32:58.:33:01.

you know what, see in two years time. See when we have the Scottish

:33:02.:33:17.

general election. You won't -- you are saying you might win and you

:33:18.:33:19.

went to the Holyrood election and got 8000 Pope -- votes. The SNP won

:33:20.:33:26.

a democratic election and then won the 2011 election and you know why

:33:27.:33:30.

they won? Because they picked up the clothes that the Labour Party has

:33:31.:33:34.

thrown away. They picked up the close of social democracy and

:33:35.:33:39.

protecting the health service was -- service. There are people in the SNP

:33:40.:33:44.

who believe in public ownership and people in the SNP who believe in the

:33:45.:33:49.

NHS should be written into a constitution as never for sale

:33:50.:33:53.

people in the the SNP that think the Royal mail should return to public

:33:54.:33:57.

ownership. That is there in black and white. Do you agree with George

:33:58.:34:00.

Galloway that this is potentially a crisis for Scottish Labour? Scottish

:34:01.:34:06.

Labour is finished. They are absolutely finished. George is right

:34:07.:34:09.

in that. Scottish Labour is finished. The irony of ironies is,

:34:10.:34:14.

Labour in Scotland has more chance of recovery in an independent

:34:15.:34:16.

Scotland that they have in a no vote. Labour in Scotland in an

:34:17.:34:22.

independent country will have to rediscover the traditions of Keir

:34:23.:34:28.

Hardie, the ideas of Jimmy Maxon, because right now, they are to the

:34:29.:34:33.

right of the SNP as a political party. I understand the socialist

:34:34.:34:38.

vision, but it is where the appetite is. And you look at the independence

:34:39.:34:45.

people in Scotland. One of your colleagues, Brian Souter, a man who

:34:46.:34:51.

fought against the appeal -- repeal of homosexual rights in Scotland.

:34:52.:34:54.

Another of your allies would seem to be Rupert Murdoch, the man who

:34:55.:35:01.

engineered your downfall. You say he engineered your downfall, but I m

:35:02.:35:04.

still here and his newspaper has closed. Whether it Rupert Murdoch,

:35:05.:35:11.

Brian Souter, or any other millionaire supporting independence,

:35:12.:35:14.

I couldn't care less. This boat on Thursday is not about millionaires,

:35:15.:35:18.

it is about the millions. -- this vote. We will not be abused any

:35:19.:35:24.

young -- longer. Would you rather not have their support? I couldn't

:35:25.:35:29.

care about the support. You know who is supporting the union. It is the

:35:30.:35:34.

unions of the big businesses, the BNP, UKIP, they are the ones who

:35:35.:35:41.

support it. You are giving me a stray that has wandered into the

:35:42.:35:44.

campaign and are you seriously going to argue with me that the

:35:45.:35:49.

establishment isn't united to try and save the union? That is what

:35:50.:35:53.

they are trying to be. The BBC, you have been a disgrace in your

:35:54.:35:57.

coverage of the campaign. Not you personally. You don't have editorial

:35:58.:36:02.

control. The BBC coverage, generally, has been a disgrace and

:36:03.:36:07.

the people. Oil and gas, go and look at that, why is that not feature.

:36:08.:36:10.

Why is the idea of 100 years of oil not featured in the campaign.

:36:11.:36:14.

Because the BBC does not want to see it. Are you getting in your excuses

:36:15.:36:19.

if you lose? You better be kidding. Is this the face of somebody looking

:36:20.:36:24.

to lose. We are going to win, 6 /40. Absolutely. There is a momentum that

:36:25.:36:32.

you guys are not seeing on the working-class housing estates.

:36:33.:36:35.

Working class people are fed up being taken for granted fed up with

:36:36.:36:40.

the lives of people dragging us into tax cuts, bedroom tax for the poor.

:36:41.:36:47.

They will have power on Thursday, and they will use it and vote for

:36:48.:36:51.

freedom. Are you happy with the way the BBC has treated you today? So

:36:52.:36:56.

far, yes. I have still not been offered a Coffey, but that might

:36:57.:37:00.

happen. That is an obvious example of our bias. Tommy, we will speak to

:37:01.:37:03.

you later with George Galloway. This is the Sunday politics in the

:37:04.:37:31.

south`east. It has been a htgely stressful week for thousands of 10

:37:32.:37:45.

euros juicer 11 plus exam `` ten`year`old.

:37:46.:37:51.

I am joined by the Conservative MP for Folkestone and hide and a Labour

:37:52.:37:55.

candidate for Folkestone and the general election.

:37:56.:38:01.

It has been a summer when one of the worst kept political secrets was

:38:02.:38:09.

confirmed, Nigel Farage will stand for the general election. Hdre he is

:38:10.:38:17.

at his hustings in Ramsgate. Somebody once said I am Davhd

:38:18.:38:21.

Cameron's worst nightmare. That is not good enough. I want to be Ed

:38:22.:38:29.

Miliband's worst Maes Manor also `` worst nightmare. Will you join me in

:38:30.:38:35.

the army that will come to success next year? Thank you!

:38:36.:38:40.

A rather more surprising announcement was the defecthon of

:38:41.:38:46.

the Conservative MP for Clacton Douglas Carswell. You heard Nigel

:38:47.:38:55.

Farage: For an army of supporters. I was there, they went mad for him. He

:38:56.:38:59.

knows how to use the language of the people. Is there anything ndw or

:39:00.:39:03.

could ever up your sleeve to tackle the threat?

:39:04.:39:09.

We don't need anything new or clever, just to be true to our

:39:10.:39:13.

values and vision and to continue talking to people. We do th`t every

:39:14.:39:18.

day. I have a great privilege listening to what the residdnts want

:39:19.:39:21.

and it is very much in tune with what we are offering. We nedd to

:39:22.:39:28.

take every rival with some seriousness will stop he is a rival

:39:29.:39:31.

and it is not exactly a surprise as you said. But we have not sden a

:39:32.:39:38.

massive show of support for UKIP on the doorsteps so far.

:39:39.:39:43.

Along the coast they are a serious threat. The official opposition on

:39:44.:39:50.

Kent County Council. They h`ve these highly credible candidates. Do you

:39:51.:39:55.

have anything new or clever up your sleeve? Do you need to up your game?

:39:56.:40:03.

His selection has been a bit like a pantomime. It all seemed to be about

:40:04.:40:11.

Nigel Farage. Voters will now think, what does your party offer? Do I

:40:12.:40:18.

want UKIP representing me? Hs it all about creating a platform for them?

:40:19.:40:25.

I went to Clacton on the dax of the defection and spoke to elderly,

:40:26.:40:29.

traditional conservative voters They said, we will have two vote

:40:30.:40:33.

UKIP now. They don't have too. I will visit

:40:34.:40:39.

during the course of the calpaign. Lots of people think it will be

:40:40.:40:49.

between the Conservatives and UKIP and they would rather see the

:40:50.:40:53.

Conservatives win it. This hs largely about people who fedl left

:40:54.:41:00.

behind and angry. We need to prove that our policies improve the lives

:41:01.:41:06.

and create jobs. You both must agree will be an

:41:07.:41:12.

exciting general election. Perhaps we have UKIP to thank because people

:41:13.:41:21.

are engaged with politics again Too many people on the doorsteps so

:41:22.:41:26.

they are not interested. It was one of our challenges.

:41:27.:41:31.

A touchstone issue for UKIP is immigration. It has dominatdd our

:41:32.:41:37.

screens because of the incrdase of people arriving at the port of

:41:38.:41:46.

Calais using increasingly ddsperate measures to reach Britain. Ligrants

:41:47.:41:52.

attempting to illegally reach the UK have climbed fences and tridd to

:41:53.:41:56.

storm ferries en masse. One woman found a man tucked in the b`ck of

:41:57.:42:01.

her car, he climbed in when she left it at the port.

:42:02.:42:05.

In that little compound you think you are safe. It is not the case.

:42:06.:42:14.

What is the solution? The European Union must takd

:42:15.:42:17.

responsibility to process asylum claims. We are seeing too m`ny

:42:18.:42:26.

countries were waving them on to Calais.

:42:27.:42:34.

Town hall chiefs in Calais want the process moved to Dover.

:42:35.:42:43.

You can stop hundreds of migrants in one go. They have nothing to lose

:42:44.:42:46.

any more. What is the attraction of Britain?

:42:47.:42:54.

Many feel that they will have more opportunity of work because of

:42:55.:42:57.

family connections. They think that here, life hs good.

:42:58.:43:04.

Maybe it is a myth but it is a myth that into yours. This is not just

:43:05.:43:10.

about security but about a humanitarian crisis also. Tdnsions

:43:11.:43:18.

are running high with the town seen protests from refugees themselves

:43:19.:43:21.

and anti immigrant groups. Is it our problem? A British

:43:22.:43:27.

problem? It would be if we don't defdnd our

:43:28.:43:33.

borders. That is our first obligation and why we have `nother

:43:34.:43:39.

400 people working in the port of force. These people have tr`velled

:43:40.:43:42.

all the way through Italy and France, the authorities havd not

:43:43.:43:48.

dealt with them at any point in that journey, they wait for them to get

:43:49.:43:58.

to Calais and the crisis. The. We must be absolutely clear, otr first

:43:59.:44:02.

obligation is to protect our borders. We have the right to check

:44:03.:44:07.

papers and passports as thex come in. People without the right papers

:44:08.:44:12.

don't have the right to comd into the country. There is an assumption

:44:13.:44:19.

that people want to come because of our benefits. However you w`nt to

:44:20.:44:25.

portray it. Is this not just more about people wanting to comd to be

:44:26.:44:29.

contrary where they speak the language? Various things ard

:44:30.:44:36.

important. One, they are not all asylum seekers. Does that mdan none

:44:37.:44:50.

of them are? No, that is wh`t I was going to want to say. Some lay be

:44:51.:44:54.

economic migrants, others for other reasons. And the rate of benefits

:44:55.:45:02.

here is lower than in Francd. So the claims of a benefits attraction is

:45:03.:45:08.

fallacious, it does not hold water. Do they perceive it? A lot of them

:45:09.:45:15.

are trafficked and Arsenal story of what awaits them in Britain. They do

:45:16.:45:20.

not often find that and we lust think of them as exploitive as well.

:45:21.:45:26.

Not everybody is getting ovdr here, a lot of the struggle is in France,

:45:27.:45:31.

these people are disillusioned and desperate, running like crazy to get

:45:32.:45:37.

onto a boat. They are desperately exploited and in terrible

:45:38.:45:41.

conditions. We have to think of what rings them there, not just how to

:45:42.:45:45.

keep them out. At the very least should be sent

:45:46.:45:49.

officials out there? We do, to engage and explain why

:45:50.:45:54.

they cannot come into the country. We talked to the French authorities

:45:55.:45:59.

also and want them to do more. They have allowed the situation to build.

:46:00.:46:06.

It is not good enough for them to say to us, you not take these people

:46:07.:46:10.

off our hands. That is unre`sonable. And despite the concerns, this

:46:11.:46:17.

demonstrates we are increashngly effective at policing our own

:46:18.:46:20.

borders. And a guy got on the back of a car?

:46:21.:46:35.

And we have had people hiding the reels of aeroplanes, falling out as

:46:36.:46:37.

they come over. Do they need to create a new camp?

:46:38.:46:48.

Do we need to think about... We have some humanity. We c`nnot

:46:49.:46:52.

leave people on the streets. That is not an option. The question is how

:46:53.:46:57.

do you create opportunities for people to live the lives thdy want.

:46:58.:47:03.

If these people did not want to leave and did not feel so ddsperate,

:47:04.:47:08.

there would not be this crisis. I am sure you feel you have done

:47:09.:47:12.

this already but we are going to engage our brains in a moment.

:47:13.:47:16.

First, the breakfast progralme will, live from Calais tomorrow. Now, the

:47:17.:47:28.

grey matter. If you were at school before the 70s you probably had to

:47:29.:47:32.

answer mathematical questions in your 11 plus. This week, 14,000

:47:33.:47:43.

students set a new exam, supposedly a better taste of innate abhlity.

:47:44.:47:54.

I felt quite dizzy. Quite ill. The nerves were getting to me, H think.

:47:55.:48:02.

Your time start now. I felt like it was just me hn the

:48:03.:48:10.

room. I was anxious and scared. My heart was beating really quhckly.

:48:11.:48:20.

Wednesday was a stressful d`y for image and columns. She said the new,

:48:21.:48:45.

so`called tutor proof 11th plus Despite that, many parents still

:48:46.:48:49.

play for tutoring. It is unfair to put them in without

:48:50.:48:55.

any level of coaching. She needed support and guidance to enable her

:48:56.:49:00.

to make the best of it passhng. Because I had tutoring, I think I

:49:01.:49:07.

felt more confident. It's hdlped me do the test.

:49:08.:49:12.

Competition for a place at ` grammar school is fierce. Many are

:49:13.:49:17.

oversubscribed, particularlx in West Kent. It puts more pressure on

:49:18.:49:24.

parents and pupils. But can any exam really be tutor proof?

:49:25.:49:30.

I don't think the new test hs any less coachable than the previous

:49:31.:49:37.

one. Except for the on cert`inty. `` uncertainty. The consequencd is that

:49:38.:49:44.

the amount of coaching has, perversely, gone up. The attempts to

:49:45.:49:50.

produce a less coachable test, I have seen that it has produced an

:49:51.:49:58.

increase in the demand for coaching. First introduced in 1944, the test

:49:59.:50:03.

promised better social mobility through education. Today, Kdnt has

:50:04.:50:09.

more grammar schools than anywhere else in the country and the system

:50:10.:50:18.

is more popular than ever. 03,7 0 children took the test, vying for

:50:19.:50:23.

fewer than 4800 places. 25% will succeed. Despite the new stxle test

:50:24.:50:30.

that is mounting pressure on the system with so`called test tourism,

:50:31.:50:36.

children from neighbouring counties spilling into Kent grammar schools.

:50:37.:50:40.

And an increasing number of schools opting for their own entry dxams.

:50:41.:50:47.

Can it survive? I suspect wd will see greater fragmentation. Ht has

:50:48.:50:54.

already started. There is a feeling in certain quarters that cotntywide

:50:55.:50:59.

test, be that in Kent, Lincolnshire, wherever therd is a

:51:00.:51:03.

proliferation of grammar schools, are probably not the way forward.

:51:04.:51:10.

Back at home and for imaging, the long wait for results. But for

:51:11.:51:16.

children like her, sitting the test in the future, will it really be

:51:17.:51:22.

fairer and less stressful? Earlier I spoke to the man hn charge

:51:23.:51:30.

of education in Kent. A fair test, but fair on whom?

:51:31.:51:35.

In the sense of, if we achidve what we want to, a better test. H saw

:51:36.:51:43.

your clip and the references to being tutor proof. We never use that

:51:44.:51:49.

term. We want proper assesslent of whether a child taking the test is

:51:50.:51:55.

suitable for grammar educathon. So you want the very brightest

:51:56.:51:59.

children. You would agree whth critics of the previous test that

:52:00.:52:03.

there were children got a place who were not really grammar school

:52:04.:52:06.

material? Our concern was that the test had

:52:07.:52:11.

gotten stale and predictabld. We are trying to introduce some eldment of

:52:12.:52:21.

this predictable, but we have also changed and brought closer to the

:52:22.:52:24.

school curriculum. You have an English element, mathematics, and we

:52:25.:52:29.

seek that overall, now in the years to come, there is constant

:52:30.:52:34.

refreshing of the question bank So that it is more a test of all

:52:35.:52:44.

ability. I don't see much about making it

:52:45.:52:50.

feared for children from disadvantaged families. `` fairer.

:52:51.:53:03.

The schools minister has cold and grammar schools to do more `bout it.

:53:04.:53:08.

But this is not designed for that. We think it should be a consequence.

:53:09.:53:15.

If it is to be a better test of raw ability ultimately you can pick out

:53:16.:53:19.

the truth from whatever background, that would include increasing

:53:20.:53:22.

representation of children on free school meals. Already, lookhng at

:53:23.:53:29.

the last three years, there has been a doubling of children from free

:53:30.:53:32.

school meals backgrounds taking the test.

:53:33.:53:36.

Surely this is the wrong molent to change it then, particularlx looking

:53:37.:53:41.

at the Bucks model, campaigners released figures suggesting a

:53:42.:53:45.

similarly revamped model was altered in more children from private school

:53:46.:53:49.

getting a place and fewer from state schools. If that happens here you

:53:50.:53:54.

can possibly argue this is lore fair, it might have been better to

:53:55.:54:01.

wait and make changes natur`lly It is still far from a satisfactory

:54:02.:54:04.

level. But are you worried about what is

:54:05.:54:07.

happening in Bucks? We want to move in the direction of

:54:08.:54:12.

a level playing you. If you have that, a coral reef should bd that

:54:13.:54:18.

grammar schools deliver gre`ter academic education. `` coral lary.

:54:19.:54:36.

Do you want the schools to `ctually let your test bed in first? It could

:54:37.:54:41.

not be good for students to sit multiple tests.

:54:42.:54:44.

It puts extra pressure on students and families. We hope that this

:54:45.:54:54.

test, so far taken across the county, at the moment, as mtch as

:54:55.:55:03.

possible we want to hold onto existing test in the interest of

:55:04.:55:07.

children and families, to mhnimise pressure on them.

:55:08.:55:16.

Is the best way to minimise stress mode selection at all? Do wd really

:55:17.:55:21.

need to put 40,000 children through this every year?

:55:22.:55:25.

Look at the results this sulmer We did that of the national avdrage.

:55:26.:55:30.

What we have in Kent works. That does not answer whether this is

:55:31.:55:35.

good for children. Surely that should be the measure with dvery

:55:36.:55:38.

education policy? But different schools cater for

:55:39.:55:44.

children with different needs. Some thrive academically, others need a

:55:45.:55:47.

broader curriculum than the academy schools. Some are doing really well

:55:48.:55:53.

at getting excellent academhc results, sending pupils onto the top

:55:54.:55:59.

universities, as well as providing vocational skills also. Pardnts and

:56:00.:56:06.

children have a choice. Overall the test is our standard is going up

:56:07.:56:10.

across the board? And they `re. Parents are the problem, ard they?

:56:11.:56:17.

Parents who force children hnto hours of extra coaching, endless

:56:18.:56:24.

practice. This is try to stop them being an incentive for that.

:56:25.:56:29.

And I understand why. But e`rlier we saw a record amount of tutor...

:56:30.:56:40.

That was an anecdote. But the unknown makes parents put more

:56:41.:56:49.

pressure on their children. You went to a grammar school.

:56:50.:56:54.

And they would not recommend it and do not wanted for my childrdn. I was

:56:55.:57:01.

expelled... Does that speak volumes for you or

:57:02.:57:05.

the school? We can get into that another time!

:57:06.:57:12.

Does labour disapprove of grammar schools then? Would Labour get rid

:57:13.:57:20.

of the existing grammar schools I don't know the answer to that

:57:21.:57:27.

But you are critical. I would argue for comprehensive schools. Children

:57:28.:57:33.

who eat and play together, learn together, build a society that is at

:57:34.:57:38.

ease with each other, in a way that segregation at 11 does not.

:57:39.:57:43.

Disadvantaged children are not the object of her. Grammar schools these

:57:44.:57:48.

days are stuffed full of middle`class children according to

:57:49.:57:52.

the schools minister. We usdd to be the agents of social change. Where

:57:53.:57:56.

poor children went for a grdat education. Don't we really need to

:57:57.:58:01.

look at that issue? When the whole country had ` grammar

:58:02.:58:05.

school system there were more children at the top univershties who

:58:06.:58:10.

went to state schools. So h`ve we lost something? The system was very

:58:11.:58:14.

good at taking the brightest children, whatever their social

:58:15.:58:19.

background, and equipping them with tools to reach their potenthal. What

:58:20.:58:24.

we have changed though is that the non`grammar option is now excellent

:58:25.:58:28.

whereas in old days it was not the case.

:58:29.:58:33.

But you cannot keep that elhtism. 4% of children in a few select schools

:58:34.:58:39.

whilst privately educated pdople run the country, it has to change.

:58:40.:58:52.

Here is a roundup, with 60 seconds. Drama in Eastbourne when thd Pearl

:58:53.:58:59.

was ravaged by fire. The Prhme Minister visited.

:59:00.:59:03.

The Fire Service did an amazing job. They saved two thirds of thd pier.

:59:04.:59:14.

The East Kent hospitals trust was put into special measures and said

:59:15.:59:19.

it would work to improve. Mddway Council has signed off 5000 homes to

:59:20.:59:23.

the dismay of environmental protesters. But they are happier

:59:24.:59:27.

there will be no runway in the Thames estuary. What Boris Johnson

:59:28.:59:33.

remains buoyant. It took years to build the Channel

:59:34.:59:37.

tunnel so this thing will t`ke a while.

:59:38.:59:43.

And a UKIP representative is in trouble for using a racist term she

:59:44.:59:50.

issued an apology, and the party leader visited the family concerned

:59:51.:59:55.

to apologise. I will be taking some action.

:59:56.:00:01.

Another runway looking likely now? We need to see what is said and what

:00:02.:00:07.

the environmental and actors. We need more runways. Could be both,

:00:08.:00:11.

could be either. Thank you both very much indeed

:00:12.:00:13.

London was 150 years ago, otherwise we would have a dirty River Thames.

:00:14.:00:18.

Andrew, back to you. Can

:00:19.:00:23.

the No campaign still pull it off? And even if they do is the whole

:00:24.:00:28.

of the UK now on the brink I'm joined now by John McTernan

:00:29.:00:32.

former adviser to Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, Alex Bell,

:00:33.:00:49.

former Head of Policy for the SNP and Lindsay McIntosh, the

:00:50.:00:52.

Times Scottish Political Editor And I'm delighted that Tommy

:00:53.:00:54.

and George have stayed too. No fighting has broken out either.

:00:55.:01:00.

Where No fighting has broken out either.

:01:01.:01:09.

have three full days to go No fighting has broken out either.

:01:10.:01:09.

polling day. What is the state of play? I think the poll of polls is

:01:10.:01:17.

accurate. 49 and 51%. What is vital is to bring the undecided voters in,

:01:18.:01:21.

and they properly have about 500,000. I think there are a lot of

:01:22.:01:26.

undecided people. I think they know which way they are leaning, but they

:01:27.:01:30.

haven't jumped. The hope of the no campaign is that they will go for

:01:31.:01:37.

the status quo on Thursday. How do you assess the state of the campaign

:01:38.:01:43.

now? The crucial thing is the big swing. The swing has come towards

:01:44.:01:47.

yes, so will the momentum carry it over the line? I will think it does,

:01:48.:01:54.

because it is an antiestablishment swell, and its people responding to

:01:55.:01:58.

standard Western as the politicians and saying that they want a new way

:01:59.:02:02.

-- Westminster politicians. I think that yes will sneak it. A referendum

:02:03.:02:08.

can be more important than a general election, and the Yes campaign have

:02:09.:02:14.

had the momentum. This was the week the momentum stopped. We started the

:02:15.:02:17.

week looking as though yes were going into the lead and then it

:02:18.:02:20.

stopped and most of the recent polls show a distinct lead for the no

:02:21.:02:24.

campaign. A distinct lead? It is one or two points. It is six in one

:02:25.:02:29.

poll, two in another, aiding another. The poll of polls is a good

:02:30.:02:34.

way of measuring, and is it statistically Nick -- nip and tuck?

:02:35.:02:39.

It is the week the momentum stopped. About a fifth of the electorate

:02:40.:02:43.

That will be a quarter of the turnout have voted already, by

:02:44.:02:47.

postal vote, and they are running very strongly towards no, so there

:02:48.:02:52.

is a whole bank of votes there. The postal votes are skewed to the over

:02:53.:02:56.

60s, and that is the demographic that the Yes campaign have had the

:02:57.:03:02.

biggest trouble with. Absolutely, the Yes campaign faced a challenge

:03:03.:03:07.

amongst the 16 and 18-year-olds and always based challenge with the

:03:08.:03:12.

older voters. Trust me, I was the decision the day the civil servants

:03:13.:03:17.

made it possible for the 16 to 18-year-olds to vote, and we said

:03:18.:03:19.

there was a victory for the no campaign in that alone. The young

:03:20.:03:25.

tend to be conservative by nature. I think again that to say that the

:03:26.:03:29.

momentum has stopped when you had a 20 point lead, this is a referendum

:03:30.:03:37.

whether people will speak and they will be heard. Except for the one

:03:38.:03:41.

poll which needs a huge health warning because of the size of the

:03:42.:03:46.

sample, the momentum is unquestionably all the way through

:03:47.:03:49.

August is going in the direction of yes. It hasn't quite continue to get

:03:50.:03:56.

to the 55/45 four yes that Alex Salmond thinks will be the result. I

:03:57.:04:00.

would agree with John. This was the momentum stalled. We saw the three

:04:01.:04:06.

leaders coming up, and that kept Alex Salmond off the front pages on

:04:07.:04:11.

the television and we had a raft of economic warnings which, although

:04:12.:04:14.

they were dismissed as scaremongering, they will have had a

:04:15.:04:17.

lot of traction with voters. What does the no campaign have to do in

:04:18.:04:24.

the final three days? It has to focus on the undecided,

:04:25.:04:29.

relentlessly. It has to do stick to the question of risk and keep

:04:30.:04:32.

pushing back on Alex Salmond to say it doesn't matter if the banks

:04:33.:04:35.

leave, it will all be all right on the night. The huge question amongst

:04:36.:04:40.

the undecided voters is about the economy. It is about jobs and

:04:41.:04:45.

currency, about business. That risk is what will crystallise in the

:04:46.:04:48.

ballot box on Thursday and that has to be the focus. What does the Yes

:04:49.:04:53.

campaign have to do? It has to drive home that the swing to the Yes

:04:54.:04:57.

campaign is motivated by people who want a different politics. They have

:04:58.:05:01.

decided amongst themselves that they want to change Scotland. The

:05:02.:05:03.

unfortunate thing is, even though the no campaign has had the chance

:05:04.:05:09.

to put up after proposals, they have failed. The Scottish people want

:05:10.:05:12.

their powers were a purpose and they say that only the Yes campaign can

:05:13.:05:17.

deliver that. There will be two days of relentless campaigning from

:05:18.:05:20.

today, Monday and Tuesday, then the media, the newspapers, including

:05:21.:05:23.

your own, will come out with the final poll, the ones that will be

:05:24.:05:29.

the closest to the day that the Scots actually go and vote. I think

:05:30.:05:34.

we will see more polling this week, but what is interesting is the

:05:35.:05:36.

extent to which the pollsters are picking up what is going on in the

:05:37.:05:40.

street. We know we have a huge number of voters who have never

:05:41.:05:43.

voted before and are not engage with politics, so what will they do? The

:05:44.:05:49.

third candidate in the election if I can would in this way, are the

:05:50.:05:53.

polls. They might have a lot of questions to answer on Friday

:05:54.:05:57.

morning. We were talking earlier with George and Tommy about the

:05:58.:05:59.

Labour Party's consequences in all of this. Gordon Brown, of course,

:06:00.:06:05.

has had a bit of a second coming as a result of this referendum. I just

:06:06.:06:09.

want to play a clip of Gordon Brown during the campaign and get a

:06:10.:06:13.

reaction. And I say this to Alex Salmond himself. Up until today I am

:06:14.:06:22.

outside front line politics. If he continues to peddle this deception,

:06:23.:06:25.

that the Scottish Parliament under his leadership, and he cannot do

:06:26.:06:29.

anything to improve the health service until he has a separate

:06:30.:06:37.

state, then I will want to join Joe Hanlon want in and securing the

:06:38.:06:40.

return of a Labour government as quickly as possible -- Johann

:06:41.:06:48.

Lamont. That was seen by some people as Gordon Brown implying he might

:06:49.:06:51.

stand for the Scottish Parliament. Whether it is yes or no, is Gordon

:06:52.:06:54.

Brown the saviour of Scottish Labour? I did a double black the

:06:55.:07:01.

other night -- double act with him the other night, and I must say he

:07:02.:07:05.

was a big beast all over again. He crossed the stage Meli dealt with

:07:06.:07:11.

the audience brilliantly. He has a certain presence, Gordon Brown, but

:07:12.:07:14.

he would really have to reinvent himself quite considerably. He is

:07:15.:07:20.

capable of doing, but the man who was the biographer of Jimmy Maxton,

:07:21.:07:25.

who pulled together the original red paper on Scotland, he would have to

:07:26.:07:29.

be that Gordon Brown rather than the Gordon Brown of some more melancholy

:07:30.:07:33.

events later. Tommy, you have both been critical of the state of the

:07:34.:07:36.

Scottish Labour Party. Rather than looking to Gordon Brown, which might

:07:37.:07:40.

be an interim solution, doesn't Scottish Labour have to find a new

:07:41.:07:44.

generation of people to reignite it? What George and I are agreed on and

:07:45.:07:48.

you have to remember this question of independence see us disagreeing

:07:49.:07:53.

passionately, and in most other things we find ourselves in

:07:54.:07:57.

agreement, one thing is clear, Scottish Labour is finished. They

:07:58.:08:00.

have lost the heart and soul of Scotland. The fact that we are

:08:01.:08:07.

discussing with four days to go an independence referendum that is neck

:08:08.:08:12.

and neck, Labour have failed miserably, absolutely miserably

:08:13.:08:14.

because they have given up everything they stood for. The SNP

:08:15.:08:19.

has picked it up. They have just taken on the bank -- mantle of a

:08:20.:08:22.

left of centre party and are picking up support. Gordon and the rest in

:08:23.:08:27.

my opinion, they represent the past. The yes vote on the Yes campaign

:08:28.:08:30.

represents the future. What do you say to that? There is nothing

:08:31.:08:36.

socialist about an SNP that wants to cut business tax by 3% in the pan.

:08:37.:08:41.

There is nothing socialist about an SNP destroying further education so

:08:42.:08:43.

they can give middle-class people free education. The Labour Party is

:08:44.:08:49.

alive and kicking. You can see if it is Gordon Brown, or Jim Murphy with

:08:50.:08:55.

the 100 days tour. But I hesitate to use this word, but they are kind of

:08:56.:08:59.

privatised from the Scottish Labour Party. They have rode their own

:09:00.:09:04.

fallow. Jim Murphy was on the stump because official Scottish Labour did

:09:05.:09:07.

not want him leading their campaign. Gordon Brown was, I think, kept off

:09:08.:09:12.

the stage until it became so critical that he had to be brought

:09:13.:09:18.

back. I agree with John, the SNP talks left but acts right. That is

:09:19.:09:25.

before they get state powers. That is what is exciting about the

:09:26.:09:28.

referendum, it's not about the SNP, it's about the people deciding. What

:09:29.:09:32.

we have heard so far in the referendum campaign is that there is

:09:33.:09:35.

a desperate yearning in the electorate for real politics,

:09:36.:09:38.

purposeful politics and for the people to be represented. It is

:09:39.:09:41.

probably to the eternal shame of labour that they gave up that role

:09:42.:09:46.

and other people are now taking it upon themselves. How would you

:09:47.:09:49.

assess the state of the Labour Party? The problem is that it was

:09:50.:09:54.

demolished by the SNP in 2011 and what they should have done since

:09:55.:09:57.

then and in other circumstances is take a real look within themselves

:09:58.:10:01.

and brought forward new talent and policies and watch out what they

:10:02.:10:04.

stood for. They've been unable to do that because they are locked in a

:10:05.:10:11.

constitutional row. It is the plan of the Nationalists to fight the

:10:12.:10:15.

first Scottish general election as an independent nation as a

:10:16.:10:17.

nationalist party with its own programme. You don't all go your own

:10:18.:10:22.

way. Why don't you do that? You have more on your main reason to be, so

:10:23.:10:26.

why not go, left, right and centre question you are presuming you don't

:10:27.:10:32.

go the one-way. I do not see the function of the SNP after the yes

:10:33.:10:35.

vote. I think it is clear that there is an SNP under Nicola Sturgeon an

:10:36.:10:40.

SNP which attracts votes from the left and that is the one for me

:10:41.:10:43.

Whether that is called the SNP or something else, I don't know. I

:10:44.:10:46.

think the assumption that we are going into a mirror of old politics

:10:47.:10:51.

in a new world is just fundamentally flawed. That is interesting. Let's

:10:52.:10:59.

just bring in the English dimensional. In many ways, England

:11:00.:11:02.

has not spoken in this referendum campaign. Whether it is yes or no,

:11:03.:11:07.

it will, and to give you a flavour of what some in England might be

:11:08.:11:11.

thinking was saying, here is a clip from John Redwood. We are fed up

:11:12.:11:16.

with this lopsided devolution, this unfair devolution. Scotland gets

:11:17.:11:20.

first-class Devolution, Wales gets second-class devolution and England

:11:21.:11:23.

gets nothing. If Wales wants the same as us, they should have it and

:11:24.:11:27.

then there would be commonality so we could discuss and decide in our

:11:28.:11:31.

own countries, in our own assemblies in Parliament, all those things that

:11:32.:11:38.

are devolved. George, it was clear that if Scotland voted yes for

:11:39.:11:41.

independence it has huge implications for England than the

:11:42.:11:45.

UK, but it's also clear particularly after Gordon Brown's intervention,

:11:46.:11:49.

even if it is no, it has huge applications. You are, I suggest,

:11:50.:11:53.

agreeing with John Redwood that there should be an English boys It

:11:54.:11:58.

would be a step too far for me to agree with him -- English voice I

:11:59.:12:03.

appreciate I might have gone out on a limb. He is the voice of Mars the

:12:04.:12:10.

Balkan from Mars. My own constituents in Bradford are asking,

:12:11.:12:14.

what about us? All these things being done, all the extra mile is

:12:15.:12:18.

being travel to Scotland, what about us? Labour would be well advised to

:12:19.:12:23.

adjust quickly on this so that the John Redwood types do not steal the

:12:24.:12:29.

show. England has yes to use -- yet to speak. It's interesting when you

:12:30.:12:33.

hear a Labour backbencher in Scotland talk about a command paper.

:12:34.:12:40.

He is not in government. Gordon Brown is going round Scotland

:12:41.:12:43.

promising things and he has absolutely no chance of delivering

:12:44.:12:47.

them. The MPs in England will say, hey, what are you talking about We

:12:48.:12:51.

have never been discussed with that? We have not agreed with that. The

:12:52.:12:56.

only way people in Scotland will get the powers they deserve is by voting

:12:57.:13:00.

yes. Crystal ball time, Tommy, you think it is 60/40. I will stick with

:13:01.:13:05.

it, because we have an unprecedented election. 97% of Scotland is

:13:06.:13:10.

registered to vote. The working class will vote in numbers never

:13:11.:13:16.

voted before. George? 55/45 for our side. And if there is a rogue poll,

:13:17.:13:23.

the tek Levesley polled -- technically flawed poll, which

:13:24.:13:27.

should not be published because it is so flawed, then we would be

:13:28.:13:30.

stretching towards what I am predicting already. I think in the

:13:31.:13:33.

last few days we will reach that. Come on. If the no campaign can get

:13:34.:13:38.

the silent majority out, they will edge it. You think they will win,

:13:39.:13:45.

but how much? They cannot give up in a second, a moment or a mile. It is

:13:46.:13:51.

that close. It will be won by the passionate view. I will go for a

:13:52.:13:58.

narrow yes victory. I'm the George, 53 or 54% in favour of Joe -- no. --

:13:59.:14:05.

I am with George. I will leave you to argue about that later. Thank you

:14:06.:14:08.

for being with us on the special Sunday politics from Edinburgh.

:14:09.:14:11.

That's all from us today in Scotland.

:14:12.:14:12.

Don't forget the Daily Politics will have continuing coverage

:14:13.:14:15.

of the referendum campaign all this week on BBC2 at midday.

:14:16.:14:17.

On Thursday night Huw Edwards will be in Glasgow and I will be

:14:18.:14:21.

in London to bring you live coverage of the results on BBC1 from 10. 0 pm

:14:22.:14:24.

on a historic night for Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

:14:25.:14:28.

And I'll be back next Sunday when we're live from the Labour

:14:29.:14:31.

Unless, of course, the referendum result is so tumultuous even the

:14:32.:14:38.

Remember if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.

:14:39.:14:44.

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