15/01/2017 Sunday Politics South West


15/01/2017

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It's Sunday morning, and this is the Sunday Politics.

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Is the Prime Minister prepared to end Britain's membership

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of the EU's single market and its customs union?

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We preview Theresa May's big speech, as she seeks to unite the country

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Is the press a force for good or a beast that needs taming?

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As the Government ponders its decision, we speak to one

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of those leading the campaign for greater regulation.

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Just what kind of President will Donald Trump be?

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In the South West... well, joins us live.

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Humane response to a so-called humanitarian crisis -

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could local communities hold the key to our health services woes?

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And to help me make sense of all that, three of the finest

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hacks we could persuade to work on a Sunday - Steve Richards,

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They'll be tweeting throughout the programme, and you can join

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So, Theresa May is preparing for her big Brexit speech on Tuesday,

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in which she will urge people to give up on "insults"

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and "division" and unite to build, quote, a "global Britain".

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Some of the Sunday papers report that the Prime Minister will go

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The Sunday Telegraph splashes with the headline: "May's big

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gamble on a clean Brexit", saying the Prime Minister

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will announce she's prepared to take Britain out of membership

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of the single market and customs union.

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The Sunday Times has a similar write-up -

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they call it a "clean and hard Brexit".

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The Brexit Secretary David Davis has also written a piece in the paper

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hinting that a transitional deal could be on the cards.

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And the Sunday Express says: "May's Brexit Battle Plan",

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explaining that the Prime Minister will get tough with Brussels

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and call for an end to free movement.

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Well, let's get some more reaction on this.

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I'm joined now from Cumbria by the leader

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of the Liberal Democrats, Tim Farron.

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Mr Farron, welcome back to the programme. The Prime Minister says

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most people now just want to get on with it and make a success of it.

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But you still want to stop it, don't you? Well, I certainly take the view

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that heading for a hard Brexit, essentially that means being outside

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the Single Market and the customs union, is not something that was on

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the ballot paper last June. For Theresa May to adopt what is

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basically the large all Farage vision of Britain's relationship

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with Europe is not what was voted for last June. It is right for us to

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stand up and say that a hard Brexit is not the democratic choice of the

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British people, and that we should be fighting for the people to be the

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ones who have the Seat the end of this process, not have it forced

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upon them by Theresa May and David Davis. When it comes though dual

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position that we should remain in the membership of the Single Market

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and the customs union, it looks like you are losing the argument, doesn't

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it? My sense is that if you believe in being in the Single Market and

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the customs union are good things, I think many people on the leave site

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believe that, Stephen Phillips, the Conservative MP until the autumn who

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resigned, who voted for Leave but believe we should be in the Single

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Market, I think those people believe that it is wrong for us to enter the

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negotiations having given up on the most important part of it. If you

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really are going to fight Britain's corner, then you should go in there

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fighting the membership of the Single Market, not give up and

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whitefly, as Theresa May has done before we even start. -- and wave

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the white flag. Will you vote against regret Article 50 in the

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Commons? We made it clear that we want the British people to have the

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final Seat -- vote against triggering. Will you vote against

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Article 50. Will you encourage the House of Lords to vote against out

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Article 50? I don't think they will get a chance to vote. They will have

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a chance to win the deuce amendments. One amendment we will

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introduce is that there should be a referendum in the terms of the deal.

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It is not right that Parliament on Government, and especially not civil

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servants in Brussels and Whitehall, they should stitch-up the final

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deal. That would be wrong. It is right that the British people have

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the final say. I understand that as your position. You made it clear

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Britain to remain a member of the Single Market on the customs union.

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You accept, I assume, that that would mean remaining under the

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jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, continuing free movement

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of people, and the free-trade deals remained in Brussels' competence. So

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it seems to me that if you believe that being in the Single Market is a

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good thing, then you should go and argue for that. Whilst I believe

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that we're not going to get a better deal than the one we currently have,

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nevertheless it is up to the Government to go and argue for the

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best deal possible for us outside. You accept your position would mean

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that? It would mean certainly being in the Single Market and the customs

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union. It's no surprise to you I'm sure that the Lib Dems believe the

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package we have got now inside the EU is going to be of the Nutley

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better than anything we get from the outside, I accept the direction of

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travel -- is going to be the Nutley better. At the moment, what the

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Government are doing is assuming that all the things you say Drew,

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and there is no way possible for us arguing for a deal that allows in

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the Single Market without some of those other things. If they really

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believed in the best for Britain, you would go and argue for the best

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for Britain. Let's be clear, if we remain under the jurisdiction of the

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ECJ, which is the court that governs membership of the Single Market,

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continued free movement of people, the Europeans have made clear, is

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what goes with the Single Market. And free-trade deals remaining under

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Brussels' competence. If we accepted all of that is the price of

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membership of the Single Market, in what conceivable way with that

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amount to leaving the European Union? Well, for example, I do

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believe that being a member of the Single Market is worth fighting for.

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I personally believe that freedom of movement is a good thing. British

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people benefit from freedom of movement. We will hugely be hit as

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individuals and families and businesses. Mike I understand, but

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your writing of leaving... There the butt is that if you do except that

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freedom of movement has to change, I don't, but if you do, and if you are

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Theresa May, and the problem is to go and fight for the best deal,

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don't take it from Brussels that you can't be in the Single Market

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without those other things as well, you don't go and argue the case. It

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depresses me that Theresa May is beginning this process is waving the

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white flag, just as this morning Jeremy Corbyn was waving the white

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flag when it comes to it. We need a Government that will fight Britain's

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corner and an opposition that will fight the Government to make sure

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that it fights. Just explain to our viewers how we could remain members,

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members of the Single Market, and not be subject to the jurisdiction

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of the European court? So, first of all we spent over the last many,

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many years, the likes of Nigel Farage and others, will have argued,

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you heard them on this very programme, that Britain should

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aspire to be like Norway and Switzerland for example, countries

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that are not in the European Union but aren't the Single Market. It is

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very clear to me that if you want the best deal for Britain -- but are

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in the Single Market. You go and argue for the best deal. What is the

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answer to my question, you haven't answered it

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the question is, how does the Prime Minister go and fight for the best

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deal for Britain. If we think that being in the Single Market is the

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right thing, not Baxter -- not access to it but membership of it,

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you don't wave the white flag before you enter the negotiating room. I'm

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afraid we have run out of time. Thank you, Tim Farron.

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The leaks on this speech on Tuesday we have seen, it is interesting that

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Downing Street has not attempted to dampen them down this morning, in

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the various papers, do they tell us something new? Do they tell us more

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of the Goverment's aims in the Brexit negotiations? I think it's

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only a confirmation of something which has been in the mating really

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for the six months that she's been in the job. The logic of everything

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that she's said since last July, the keenness on re-gaining control of

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migration, the desire to do international trade deals, the fact

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that she is appointed trade Secretary, the logic of all of that

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is that we are out of the Single Market, quite probably out of the

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customs union, what will happen this week is a restatement of a fairly

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clear position anyway. I think Tim Farron is right about one thing, I

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don't think she will go into the speech planning to absolutely

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definitively say, we are leaving those things. Because even if there

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is a 1% chance of a miracle deal, where you stay in the Single Market,

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somehow get exempted from free movement, it is prudent to keep

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hopes on that option as a Prime Minister. -- to keep open that

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option. She is being advised both by the diplomatic corps and her

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personal advisers, don't concede on membership of the Single Market yet.

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We know it's not going to happen, but let them Europeans knock us back

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on that,... That is probably the right strategy for all of the

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reasons that Jarlan outlined there. What we learned a bit today is the

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possibility of some kind of transition or arrangements, which

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David Davies has been talking about in a comment piece for one of the

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Sunday papers. My sense from Brexiteers aborting MPs is that they

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are very happy with 90% of the rhetoric -- Brexit sporting MPs. The

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rhetoric has not been dampened down by MPs, apart from this transitional

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arrangement, which they feel and two France, on the one front will

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encourage the very dilatory EU to spend longer than ever negotiating a

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deal, and on the other hand will also be exactly what our civil

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service looks for in stringing things out. What wasn't explained

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this morning is what David Davies means by transitional is not that

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you negotiate what you can in two years and then spend another five

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years on the matter is that a lot of the soul. He thinks everything has

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to be done in the two years, -- of the matter are hard to solve. But it

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would include transitional arrangements over the five years.

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What we are seeing in the build-up is the danger of making these kind

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of speeches. In a way, I kind of admired her not feeding the media

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machine over the autumn and the end of last year cars, as Janan has

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pointed out in his columns, she has actually said quite a lot from it,

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you would extrapolate quite a lot. We won't be members of the Single

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Market? She said that in the party conference speech, we are out of

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European court. Her red line is the end of free movement, so we are out

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of the Single Market. Why has she sent Liam Fox to negotiate all of

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these other deals, not that he will succeed necessarily, but that is the

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intention? We are still in the customs union. You can extrapolate

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what she will say perhaps more cautiously in the headlines on

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Tuesday. But the grammar of a big speech raises expectations, gets the

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markets worked up. So she is doing it because people have said that she

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doesn't know what she's on about. But maybe she should have resisted

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it. Very well, and she hasn't. The speech is on Tuesday morning.

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Now, the public consultation on press regulation closed this

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week, and soon ministers will have to decide whether to

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enact a controversial piece of legislation.

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Section 40 of the Crime and Courts Act, if implemented,

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could see newspapers forced to pay legal costs in libel and privacy

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If they don't sign up to an officially approved regulator.

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The newspapers say it's an affront to a free press,

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while pro-privacy campaigners say it's the only way to ensure

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a scandal like phone-hacking can't happen again.

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Ellie Price has been reading all about it.

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It was the biggest news about the news for decades,

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a scandal that involved household names, but not just celebrities.

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They've even hacked the phone of a murdered schoolgirl.

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It led to the closure of the News Of The World,

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a year-long public inquiry headed up by the judge Lord Justice Leveson,

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and in the end, a new press watchdog set up by Royal Charter,

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which could impose, among other things, million-pound fines.

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If this system is implemented, the country should have confidence

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that the terrible suffering of innocent victims

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like the Dowlers, the McCanns and Christopher Jefferies should

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To get this new plan rolling, the Government also passed

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the Crime and Courts Act, Section 40 of which would force

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publications who didn't sign up to the new regulator to pay legal

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costs in libel and privacy cases, even if they won.

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It's waiting for sign-off from the Culture Secretary.

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We've got about 50 publications that have signed up...

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This is Impress, the press regulator that's got the backing

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of the Royal Charter, so its members are protected

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from the penalties that would be imposed by Section 40.

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It's funded by the Formula One tycoon Max Mosley's

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I think the danger if we don't get Section 40 is that

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you have an incomplete Leveson project.

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I think it's very, very likely that within the next five or ten years

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there will be a scandal, there'll be a crisis in press

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standards, everyone will be saying to the Government,

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"Why on Earth didn't you sort things out when you had the chance?"

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Isn't Section 40 essentially just a big stick to beat

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We hear a lot about the stick part, but there's also a big juicy carrot

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for publishers and their journalists who are members of an

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They get huge new protections from libel threats,

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from privacy actions, which actually means they've got

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a lot more opportunity to run investigative stories.

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Impress has a big image problem - not a single national

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Instead, many of them are members of Ipso,

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the independent regulator set up and funded by the industry that

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doesn't seek the recognition of the Royal Charter.

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The male cells around 22,000 each day...

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There are regional titles too, who, like the Birmingham Mail,

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won't sign up to Impress, even if they say the costs

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are associated with Section 40 could put them out of business.

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Impress has an umbilical cord that goes directly back to Government

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through the recognition setup that it has.

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Now, we broke free of the shackles of the regulated press

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when the stamp duty was revealed 150 years ago.

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If we go back to this level of oversight, then I think

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we turn the clock back, 150 years of press freedom.

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The responses from the public have been coming thick and fast

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since the Government launched its consultation

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In fact, by the time it closed on Tuesday,

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And for that reason alone, it could take months before

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a decision on what happens next is taken.

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The Government will also be minded to listen to its own MPs,

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One described it to me as Draconian and hugely damaging.

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So, will the current Culture Secretary's thinking be

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I don't think the Government will repeal section 40.

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What I'm arguing for is not to implement it, but it will remain

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on the statute book and if it then became apparent that Ipso simply

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was failing to work, was not delivering effective

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regulation and the press were behaving in a way

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which was wholly unacceptable, as they were ten years ago,

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then there might be an argument at that time to think well in that

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case we are going to have to take further measures,

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The future of section 40 might not be so black and white.

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I'm told a compromise could be met whereby the punitive parts

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about legal costs are dropped, but the incentives

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to join a recognised regulator are beefed up.

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But it could yet be some time until the issue of press freedom

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I'm joined now by Max Mosley - he won a legal case against the News

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Of The World after it revealed details about his private life,

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and he now campaigns for more press regulation.

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Are welcome to the programme. Let me ask you this, how can it be right

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that you, who many folk think have a clear vendetta against the British

:17:41.:17:44.

press, can bankroll a government approved regulator of the press? If

:17:45.:17:49.

we hadn't done it, nobody would, section 40 would never have come

:17:50.:17:53.

into force because there would never have been a regulator. It is

:17:54.:17:57.

absolutely wrong that a family trust should have to finance something

:17:58.:18:02.

like this. It should be financed by the press or the Government. If we

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hadn't done it there would be no possibility of regulation. But it

:18:08.:18:08.

means we end up with a regulator financed by you, as I say

:18:09.:18:36.

many people think you have a clear vendetta against the press. Where

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does the money come from? From a family trust, it is family money.

:18:39.:18:41.

You have to understand that somebody had to do this. I understand that.

:18:42.:18:43.

People like to know where the money comes from, I think you said it came

:18:44.:18:46.

from Brixton Steyn at one stage. Ages ago my father had a trust there

:18:47.:18:50.

but now all my money is in the UK. We are clear about that, but this is

:18:51.:18:53.

money that was put together by your father. Yes, my father inherited it

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from his father and his father. The whole of Manchester once belonged to

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the family, that's why there is a Mosley Street. That is irrelevant

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because as we have given the money, I have no control. If you do the

:19:09.:19:11.

most elementary checks into the contract between my family trust,

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the trust but finances Impress, it is impossible for me to exert any

:19:23.:19:26.

influence. It is just the same as if it had come from the National

:19:27.:19:32.

lottery. People will find it ironic that the money has come from

:19:33.:19:37.

historically Britain's best-known fascist. No, it has come from my

:19:38.:19:46.

family, the Mosley family. This is complete drivel because we have no

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control. Where the money comes from doesn't matter, if it had come from

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the national lottery it would be exactly the same. Impress was

:19:56.:20:00.

completely independent. But it wouldn't exist without your money,

:20:01.:20:05.

wouldn't it? But that doesn't give you influence. It might exist

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because it was founded before I was ever in contact with them. Isn't it

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curious then that so many leading light show your hostile views of the

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press? I don't think it is because I don't know a single member of the

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Impress board. The chairman I have met months. The only person I know

:20:26.:20:30.

is Jonathan Hayward who you had on just now. In one recent months he

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tweeted 50 attacks on the Daily Mail, including some calling for an

:20:38.:20:43.

advertising boycott of the paper. He also liked a Twitter post calling me

:20:44.:20:49.

Daily Mail and neofascist rag. Are these fitting for what is meant to

:20:50.:20:54.

be impartial regulator? The person you should ask about that is the

:20:55.:20:58.

press regulatory panel and they are completely independent, they

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reviewed the whole thing. You have probably produced something very

:21:03.:21:07.

selective, I have no idea but I am certain that these people are

:21:08.:21:09.

absolutely trustworthy and independent. It is not just Mr

:21:10.:21:14.

Hayward, we have a tonne of things he has tweeted calling for boycotts,

:21:15.:21:19.

remember this is the man that would be the regulator of these papers.

:21:20.:21:25.

He's the chief executive, that is a separate thing. The administration,

:21:26.:21:31.

the regulator. Many leading light show your vendetta of the press. I

:21:32.:21:40.

do not have a vendetta. Let's take another one. This person is on the

:21:41.:21:56.

code committee. Have a look at this. As someone with these views fit to

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be involved in the regulation of the press? You said I have a vendetta

:22:03.:22:06.

against the press, I do not, I didn't say that and it is completely

:22:07.:22:11.

wrong to say I have a vendetta. What do you think of that? I don't agree,

:22:12.:22:17.

I wouldn't ban the Daily Mail, I think it's a dreadful paper but I

:22:18.:22:28.

wouldn't ban it. Another Impress code committee said I hate the Daily

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Mail, I couldn't agree more, others have called for a boycott. Other

:22:37.:22:40.

people can say what they want and many people may think they are right

:22:41.:22:45.

but surely these views make them unfit to be partial regulators? I

:22:46.:22:51.

have no influence over Impress therefore I cannot say anything

:22:52.:22:54.

about it. You should ask them, not me. All I have done is make it

:22:55.:23:01.

possible for Impress to exist and that was the right thing to do. I'm

:23:02.:23:06.

asking you if people with these kind of views are fit to be regulators of

:23:07.:23:12.

the press. You would have to ask about all of their views, these are

:23:13.:23:17.

some of their views. A lot of people have a downer on the Daily Mail and

:23:18.:23:24.

the Sun, it doesn't necessarily make them party pre-. Why would

:23:25.:23:28.

newspapers sign up to a regulator run by what they think is run by

:23:29.:23:34.

enemies out to ruin them. If they don't like it they should start

:23:35.:23:38.

their own section 40 regulator. They could make it so recognised, if only

:23:39.:23:45.

they would make it independent of the big newspaper barons but they

:23:46.:23:54.

won't -- they could make Ipso recognised. Is the Daily Mail

:23:55.:24:04.

fascist? It certainly was in the 1930s. Me and my father are

:24:05.:24:08.

relevant, this whole section 40 issue is about access to justice.

:24:09.:24:13.

The press don't want ordinary people who cannot afford to bring an action

:24:14.:24:17.

against the press, don't want them to have access to justice. I can

:24:18.:24:21.

understand that but I don't sympathise. What would happen to the

:24:22.:24:27.

boss of Ofcom, which regulates broadcasters, if it described

:24:28.:24:34.

Channel 4 News is a Marxist scum? If the press don't want to sign up to

:24:35.:24:43.

Impress they can create their own regulator. If you were to listen we

:24:44.:24:52.

would get a lot further. The press should make their own Levenson

:24:53.:24:57.

compliant regulator, then they would have no complaints at all. Even

:24:58.:25:02.

papers like the Guardian, the Independent, the Financial Times,

:25:03.:25:07.

they show your hostility to tabloid journalism. They have refused to be

:25:08.:25:14.

regulated by Impress. I will say it again, the press could start their

:25:15.:25:17.

own regulator, they do not have to sign... Yes, but Levenson compliant

:25:18.:25:23.

one giving access to justice so people who cannot afford an

:25:24.:25:27.

expensive legal action have a proper arbitration service. The Guardian,

:25:28.:25:31.

the Independent, the Financial Times, they don't want to do that

:25:32.:25:35.

either. That would suggest there is something fatally flawed about your

:25:36.:25:40.

approach. Even these kind of papers, the Guardian, Impress is hardly

:25:41.:25:52.

independent, the head of... Andrew, I am sorry, you are like a dog with

:25:53.:26:01.

a bone. The press could start their own regulator, then people like the

:26:02.:26:05.

Financial Times, the Guardian and so one could decide whether they wanted

:26:06.:26:09.

to join or not but what is absolutely vital is that we should

:26:10.:26:12.

have a proper arbitration service so that people who cannot afford an

:26:13.:26:16.

expensive action have somewhere to go. This business of section 40

:26:17.:26:21.

which you want to be triggered which would mean papers that didn't sign

:26:22.:26:26.

up to Impress could be sued in any case and they would have to pay

:26:27.:26:29.

potentially massive legal costs, even if they win. Yes. This is what

:26:30.:26:38.

the number of papers have said about this, if section 40 was triggered,

:26:39.:26:43.

the Guardian wouldn't even think of investigation. The Sunday Times said

:26:44.:26:50.

it would not have even started to expose Lance Armstrong. The Times

:26:51.:26:53.

journalist said he couldn't have done the Rotherham child abuse

:26:54.:26:58.

scandal. What they all come it is a full reading of section 40 because

:26:59.:27:02.

that cost shifting will only apply if, and I quote, it is just and

:27:03.:27:09.

equitable in all the circumstances. I cannot conceive of any High Court

:27:10.:27:13.

judge, for example the Lance Armstrong case or the child abuse,

:27:14.:27:18.

saying it is just as equitable in all circumstances the newspaper

:27:19.:27:23.

should pay these costs. Even the editor of index on censorship, which

:27:24.:27:29.

is hardly the Sun, said this would be oppressive and they couldn't do

:27:30.:27:33.

what they do, they would risk being sued by warlords. No because if

:27:34.:27:39.

something unfortunate, some really bad person sues them, what would

:27:40.:27:44.

happen is the judge would say it is just inequitable normal

:27:45.:27:47.

circumstances that person should pay. Section 40 is for the person

:27:48.:27:51.

that comes along and says to a big newspaper, can we go to arbitration

:27:52.:27:55.

because I cannot afford to go to court. The big newspaper says no.

:27:56.:28:00.

That leaves less than 1% of the population with any remedy if the

:28:01.:28:05.

newspapers traduce them. It cannot be right. From the Guardian to the

:28:06.:28:11.

Sun, and including Index On Censorship, all of these media

:28:12.:28:17.

outlets think you are proposing a charter for conmen, warlords, crime

:28:18.:28:20.

bosses, dodgy politicians, celebrities with a grievance against

:28:21.:28:24.

the press. I will give you the final word to address that. It is pure

:28:25.:28:33.

guff and the reason is they want to go on marking their own homework.

:28:34.:28:37.

The press don't want anyone to make sure life is fair. All I want is

:28:38.:28:42.

somebody who has got no money to be able to sue in just the way that I

:28:43.:28:46.

can. All right, thanks for being with us.

:28:47.:28:50.

The doctors' union, the British Medical Association,

:28:51.:28:52.

has said the Government is scapegoating GPs in England

:28:53.:28:54.

The Government has said GP surgeries must try harder to stay

:28:55.:28:58.

open from 8am to 8pm, or they could lose out on funding.

:28:59.:29:01.

The pressure on A services in recent weeks has been intense.

:29:02.:29:04.

It emerged this week that 65 of the 152 Health Trusts in England

:29:05.:29:07.

had issued an operational pressure alert in the first

:29:08.:29:09.

At either level three, meaning major pressures,

:29:10.:29:15.

or level four, indicating an inability to deliver

:29:16.:29:18.

On Monday, Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt told the Commons

:29:19.:29:23.

that the number of people using A had increased by 9 million

:29:24.:29:26.

But that 30% of those visits were unnecessary.

:29:27.:29:34.

He said that the situation at a number of Trusts

:29:35.:29:36.

On Tuesday, the Royal College of Physicians wrote

:29:37.:29:41.

to the Prime Minister saying the health service was being

:29:42.:29:44.

paralysed by spiralling demand, and urging greater investment.

:29:45.:29:49.

On Wednesday, the Chief Executive of NHS England, Simon Stevens,

:29:50.:29:53.

told a Select Committee that NHS funding will be highly constrained.

:29:54.:29:58.

And from 2018, real-terms spending per person would fall.

:29:59.:30:02.

The Prime Minister described the Red Cross's claim that A

:30:03.:30:06.

was facing a "humanitarian crisis" as "irresponsible and overblown".

:30:07.:30:10.

And the National Audit Office issued a report that found almost half,

:30:11.:30:14.

46%, of GP surgeries closed at some point during core hours.

:30:15.:30:20.

Yesterday, Mrs May signalled her support for doctors' surgeries

:30:21.:30:24.

opening from 8am to 8pm every day of the week, in order to divert

:30:25.:30:28.

To discuss this, I'm joined now by the Conservative

:30:29.:30:35.

MP Maria Caulfield - she was an NHS nurse in a former

:30:36.:30:38.

life - and Clare Gerada, a former chair of the Royal College

:30:39.:30:40.

Welcome to you both. So, Maria Caulfield, what the Government is

:30:41.:30:51.

saying, Downing Street in effect is saying that GPs do not work hard

:30:52.:30:55.

enough and that's the reason why A was under such pressure? No, I don't

:30:56.:30:59.

think that is the message, I think that is the message that the media

:31:00.:31:02.

have taken up. That is not the expression that we want to give. I

:31:03.:31:07.

still work as a nurse, I know how hard doctors work in hospitals and

:31:08.:31:11.

GP practices. When the rose 30% of people turning up at A for neither

:31:12.:31:16.

an accident or an emergency, we do need to look at alternative. Where

:31:17.:31:21.

is the GPs' operability in this? We know from patients that if they

:31:22.:31:25.

cannot get access to GPs, they will do one of three things. They will

:31:26.:31:29.

wait two or three weeks until they can get an appointment, they will

:31:30.:31:32.

forget about the problem altogether, which is not good, we want patients

:31:33.:31:36.

to be getting investigations at early stages, or they will go to

:31:37.:31:45.

A And that is a problem. I'm not quite sure what the role that GPs

:31:46.:31:48.

play in this. What is your response in that? I think about 70% of

:31:49.:31:51.

patients that I see should not be seen by me but should still be seen

:31:52.:31:54.

by hospital consultants. If we look at it from GPs' eyes and not from

:31:55.:31:58.

hospital's eyes, because that is what it is, we might get somewhere.

:31:59.:32:02.

Tomorrow morning, every practice in England will have about 1.5 GPs

:32:03.:32:07.

shot, that's not even counting if there is traffic problems, sickness

:32:08.:32:12.

or whatever. -- GPs shot. We cannot work any harder, I cannot

:32:13.:32:15.

physically, emotionally work any harder. We are open 12 hours a day,

:32:16.:32:23.

most of us, I run practices open 365 days per year 24 hours a day. I

:32:24.:32:27.

don't understand this. It is one thing attacking me as a GP from

:32:28.:32:31.

working hard enough, but it is another thing saying that GPs as a

:32:32.:32:35.

profession and doing what they should be doing. Let me in National

:32:36.:32:40.

Audit Office has coming up with these figures showing that almost

:32:41.:32:47.

half of doctors' practices are not open during core hours at some part

:32:48.:32:51.

of the week. That's where the implication comes, that they are not

:32:52.:32:55.

working hard enough. What do you say to that? I don't recognise this. I'm

:32:56.:32:59.

not being defensive, I'm just don't recognise it. There are practices

:33:00.:33:03.

working palliative care services, practices have to close home visits

:33:04.:33:07.

if they are single-handed, some of us are working in care homes during

:33:08.:33:10.

the day. They may shot for an hour in the middle of the data will sort

:33:11.:33:17.

out some of the prescriptions and admin -- they may shot. My practice

:33:18.:33:19.

runs a number of practices across London. If we shut during our

:33:20.:33:22.

contractual hours we would have NHS England coming down on us like a

:33:23.:33:27.

tonne of bricks. Maria Caulfield, I'm struggling to understand, given

:33:28.:33:32.

the problems the NHS faces, particularly in our hospitals, what

:33:33.:33:34.

this has got to do with the solution? Obviously there are GP

:33:35.:33:39.

practices that are working, you know, over and above the hours. But

:33:40.:33:43.

there are some GP practices, we know from National Audit Office, there

:33:44.:33:49.

are particular black sports -- blackspots in the country that only

:33:50.:33:52.

offer services for three hours a week. That's causing problems if

:33:53.:33:56.

they cannot get to see a GP they will go and use A Nobody is

:33:57.:34:01.

saying that this measure would solve problems at A, it would address

:34:02.:34:04.

one small part of its top blog we shouldn't be starting this, as I

:34:05.:34:09.

keep saying, please to this from solving the problems at A We

:34:10.:34:12.

should be starting it from solving the problems of the patients in

:34:13.:34:16.

their totality, the best place they should go, not from A This really

:34:17.:34:22.

upsets me, as a GP I am there to be a proxy A doctor. I am a GP, a

:34:23.:34:27.

highly skilled doctor, looking after patients from cradle to grave across

:34:28.:34:31.

the physical, psychological and social, I am not an A doctor. I

:34:32.:34:37.

don't disagree with that, nobody is saying that GPs are not working hard

:34:38.:34:41.

enough. You just did, actually, about some of them. In some

:34:42.:34:45.

practices, what we need to see, it's not just GPs in GP surgeries, it is

:34:46.:34:50.

advanced nurse practitioners, pharmacists. It doesn't necessarily

:34:51.:34:54.

need to be all on the GPs. I think advanced nurse practitioners are in

:34:55.:35:00.

short supply. Position associate or go to hospital, -- physician

:35:01.:35:03.

associates. We have very few trainees, junior doctors in general

:35:04.:35:07.

practice, unlike hospitals, which tend to have some slack with the

:35:08.:35:10.

junior doctor community and workforce. This isn't an argument,

:35:11.:35:15.

this is about saying, let's stop looking at the National health

:35:16.:35:18.

system as a National hospital system. GPs tomorrow will see about

:35:19.:35:25.

1.3 million patients. That is a lot of thoughtful. A lot of activity

:35:26.:35:29.

with no resources. If you wanted the GPs to behave better, in your terms,

:35:30.:35:34.

when you allocated more money to GPs, part of the reforms, because

:35:35.:35:38.

that's where it went, shouldn't you have targeted it more closely to

:35:39.:35:42.

where they want to operate? That is exactly what the Prime Minister is

:35:43.:35:46.

saying, extra funding is being made available by GPs to extend hours and

:35:47.:35:50.

services. If certain GP practices cannot do that, the money will

:35:51.:35:53.

follow the patient to where they move onto. We have no doctors to do

:35:54.:35:57.

it. I was on a coach last week, the coach driver stopped in the service

:35:58.:36:00.

station for an hour, they were stopping for a rest. We cannot do

:36:01.:36:05.

it. Even if you gave us millions more money, and thankfully NHS is

:36:06.:36:12.

recognising that we need a solution through the five-day week, we

:36:13.:36:14.

haven't got the doctors to deliver this. It would take a while to get

:36:15.:36:18.

them? That's my point, that's why we need to be using all how care

:36:19.:36:21.

professional. Even if you got this right, would it make a difference to

:36:22.:36:24.

what many regard as the crisis in our hospitals? I think it would. If

:36:25.:36:29.

you look at patients, they just want to go to a service that will address

:36:30.:36:33.

the problems. In Scotland for example, pharmacists have their own

:36:34.:36:37.

patient list. Patients go and see the pharmacists first. There are

:36:38.:36:40.

lots of conditions, for example if you want anticoagulants, you don't

:36:41.:36:46.

necessarily need to see a doctor, a pharmacist can manage that and free

:36:47.:36:51.

up the doctor in other ways. The Prime Minister has said that if

:36:52.:36:54.

things do not change she is threatening to reduce funding to

:36:55.:36:57.

doctors who do not comply. Can you both agree, that is probably an

:36:58.:37:00.

empty threat, that's not going to happen? I hope it's an empty threat.

:37:01.:37:05.

We're trying our best. People like me in my profession, the seniors in

:37:06.:37:09.

our profession, are really trying to pull up morale and get people into

:37:10.:37:13.

general practice, which is a wonderful profession, absolutely

:37:14.:37:17.

wonderful place to be. But slapping us off and telling us that we are

:37:18.:37:21.

lazy really doesn't help. I really don't think anybody is doing that.

:37:22.:37:25.

We have run out of time, but I'm certain that we will be back to the

:37:26.:37:28.

subject before this winter is out. It's just gone 11:35am,

:37:29.:37:31.

you're watching the Sunday Politics. We say goodbye to viewers

:37:32.:37:33.

in Scotland, who leave us now Hello, I'm Lucie Fisher.

:37:34.:37:35.

minutes: The Week Ahead. Coming up on the Sunday Politics

:37:36.:37:49.

here in the South West.... How do you solve

:37:50.:37:51.

a problem like the NHS? And is the Labour Party

:37:52.:37:54.

here still out in the cold? And for the next 20 minutes,

:37:55.:38:02.

I'm joined by Exeter's Labour MP Ben Bradshaw and Ukip's Steph McWilliam

:38:03.:38:05.

who sits on Cornwall Council. Most people start New Year

:38:06.:38:12.

on a health kick, but those working in the health service have started

:38:13.:38:16.

2017 by kicking off The Red Cross has described it

:38:17.:38:20.

as facing a "humanitarian crisis". Here, hospitals have been on a high

:38:21.:38:27.

state of alert and the debate about how to solve problems

:38:28.:38:30.

in the health and social Here's Tamsin Melville

:38:31.:38:32.

on how some communities in the South West are coming up

:38:33.:38:36.

with their own answers. And this week,

:38:37.:38:43.

on the Health Secretary. Any message for those

:38:44.:38:49.

waiting on trolleys today? And what is he personally doing

:38:50.:38:55.

to address the chronic long-term I'm afraid this is

:38:56.:38:58.

totally unacceptable. But while the political debate rages

:38:59.:39:03.

over how best to solve what the government says is pressure

:39:04.:39:08.

on the NHS but not a crisis, out in communities, work continues

:39:09.:39:11.

to come up with solutions. 30 years ago, villagers along

:39:12.:39:14.

the west bank of the River Exe responded to a plea from the local

:39:15.:39:17.

GP practice to help vulnerable and isolated patients and that's

:39:18.:39:24.

when the model of community And West Bank has now grown

:39:25.:39:26.

to offer health and care projects across Devon,

:39:27.:39:31.

involving more than 600 volunteers giving more than 25,000

:39:32.:39:34.

unpaid hours a year. There is a sense of satisfaction

:39:35.:39:39.

from helping people. Took me the Restaurant

:39:40.:39:50.

55, for lunch... He was put in touch

:39:51.:39:52.

with West Bank by an NHS worker. After falling after he tried

:39:53.:40:01.

to take his washing upstairs. His helper now does that for him,

:40:02.:40:03.

as well as opening his mail It gives you the confidence that

:40:04.:40:07.

you know that there is someone there who can help you any time

:40:08.:40:11.

you want it. What do you think would be happening

:40:12.:40:13.

if they weren't around to help you? Would you still be

:40:14.:40:17.

able to live here? With difficulty.

:40:18.:40:19.

With difficulty. They are not things

:40:20.:40:22.

that the statutory sector have to provide, they are things that

:40:23.:40:24.

make a difference to people. Things like moving a bed to enable

:40:25.:40:28.

a hospital bed to be delivered or picking up shopping if somebody

:40:29.:40:31.

has gone to hospital. It's very much about enhancing

:40:32.:40:34.

what is already there. But some services aren't always

:40:35.:40:37.

there and up on Dartmoor is a community finding

:40:38.:40:40.

its own answers. Julia started an enterprise

:40:41.:40:45.

after noticing elderly friends in Northeast Dartmoor struggling

:40:46.:40:47.

to access home care There is a response that is required

:40:48.:40:51.

to the crisis in social care and communities can make

:40:52.:40:56.

a difference by organising themselves to help

:40:57.:40:59.

address the issues. She has been playing matchmaker

:41:00.:41:03.

within the community, introducing people like Mavis

:41:04.:41:09.

to self-employed carers like Simone. It's local work and it gives people

:41:10.:41:18.

a bit of independence at home for as long as possible and it's

:41:19.:41:21.

a lovely place to work! It's absolutely essential because

:41:22.:41:23.

I'm not the only person at all. I know a lot of people just hanging

:41:24.:41:26.

by a thread to stay at home. And of course, people

:41:27.:41:30.

getting stuck in hospital. I had one friend who was in hospital

:41:31.:41:33.

for a fortnight entirely because they couldn't get any care

:41:34.:41:37.

for her at home. Thanks to local fundraising,

:41:38.:41:42.

Netcare is soon set to become a not-for-profit regulated social

:41:43.:41:45.

care agency in its own right. And, it's hoped the community model

:41:46.:41:50.

could soon be copied Meanwhile, the government

:41:51.:41:53.

is rejecting demands to relieve the NHS pressure through extra cash

:41:54.:41:57.

will social care saying that health With us now to discuss this

:41:58.:42:02.

alongside our studio guests is Professor Sue Richards

:42:03.:42:14.

from the health think tank The Centre for Health and the Public

:42:15.:42:17.

Interest. You are completely independent

:42:18.:42:19.

of the government, What do you make of what

:42:20.:42:23.

the Red Cross has saved about there

:42:24.:42:30.

being a humanitarian crisis Well, I think there really

:42:31.:42:43.

is a crisis, whether you add that adjective to it or not

:42:44.:42:47.

is a question of choice. If you think there isn't a crisis,

:42:48.:42:49.

you should get out more. Because both in hospitals and also

:42:50.:42:53.

quietly, in people's homes, it is quite clear that there is not

:42:54.:42:56.

enough care available And should we be relying

:42:57.:42:58.

on voluntary organisations and not-for-profit organisations,

:42:59.:43:02.

to prop up the NHS? Well, we already rely on volunteers

:43:03.:43:03.

massively while family members to carry out social care

:43:04.:43:09.

for their elderly and That is a huge part of the system

:43:10.:43:11.

which nobody ever thinks about and we tend not to think

:43:12.:43:16.

of them is called volunteers, but Is your solution more spending?

:43:17.:43:19.

There has to be more spending. I am absolutely not

:43:20.:43:24.

against community volunteering and what I heard about the two

:43:25.:43:28.

examples in Devon, that But they are not substitutes

:43:29.:43:32.

for people having a right to treatment and to care,

:43:33.:43:38.

the transport, to all those facilities which enabled

:43:39.:43:42.

them to live dignified They have paid in over their working

:43:43.:43:45.

lives and they deserve You were Health Secretary

:43:46.:43:52.

under Tony Blair. Spending did get out

:43:53.:44:02.

of control then as well, No, I don't think it

:44:03.:44:04.

got out of control. By the time Labour left office,

:44:05.:44:12.

we were spending at the EU average on health which I think

:44:13.:44:15.

is a good thing. You did actually say to Parliament,

:44:16.:44:18.

18 months ago, I remember very well, The time that we were in government

:44:19.:44:22.

and the finances got out of control. That was a speech in

:44:23.:44:27.

the Commons that you made. No, I don't know where you have got

:44:28.:44:31.

the quote from, I was talking about the BMA and the strikes,

:44:32.:44:35.

about the scars on my back. We got health spending back up

:44:36.:44:38.

to where it should be in this It has now slipped back,

:44:39.:44:41.

we are now spending a third less than Germany is on social care

:44:42.:44:45.

and what Sue said is right. These voluntary organisations

:44:46.:44:48.

are great, they are not going to address the crisis

:44:49.:44:51.

that we have got in accident and emergency and across the health

:44:52.:44:54.

and social care system. Theresa May has said that the last

:44:55.:44:56.

thing the NHS needs is a check She says there isn't the money,

:44:57.:45:00.

where is it coming from? I don't care whether it's

:45:01.:45:04.

from Labour or the Conservatives. There is a widespread consensus,

:45:05.:45:06.

it seems only Theresa May who is in denial about the state

:45:07.:45:09.

of the crisis in the NHS. We need an injection of short-term

:45:10.:45:12.

emergency cash now to address the real problems in A

:45:13.:45:14.

E and hospitals. But that also need to have an honest

:45:15.:45:17.

conversation across the country about a sustainable,

:45:18.:45:20.

long-term funding solution There is an all-party offer out

:45:21.:45:22.

there to the Prime Minister, come and join all-party talks

:45:23.:45:28.

to get this sorted. You are at the beginning

:45:29.:45:30.

of Parliament, this is the best opportunity that we might happen

:45:31.:45:33.

to grasp this nettle -- that we might have to grasp this

:45:34.:45:35.

metal. -- metal. Because if we don't, the situation

:45:36.:45:49.

is not going to go away. With an ageing population,

:45:50.:45:52.

ever-increasing treatments and so on, we do need

:45:53.:45:54.

to address this now. Steph, Ukip's solution

:45:55.:45:56.

was that we leave EU and therefore as the bus was advertising,

:45:57.:45:58.

we would be able Is that going to happen?

:45:59.:46:01.

Was that realistic? Well, apart from what was on the bus

:46:02.:46:05.

was nothing to do with us, but the amount of extra spend

:46:06.:46:09.

that is available to choose to spend on the NHS or whatever else,

:46:10.:46:12.

and the sea there is a financial benefit to being out of the EU,

:46:13.:46:18.

however, the issue that nobody seems to be talking about,

:46:19.:46:32.

everybody recognises that social care funding is having

:46:33.:46:34.

a big impact on the NHS. We have been talking about that,

:46:35.:46:36.

but I do know how you can save the message on the bus

:46:37.:46:39.

was nothing to do with you? That was the Vote Leave campaigners

:46:40.:46:42.

who deliberately excluded Ukip So you weren't really saying

:46:43.:46:44.

that there would be more money We took that to mean,

:46:45.:46:48.

as I think most people did, that there would be spare money,

:46:49.:46:52.

extra money that There will be extra money

:46:53.:46:54.

and our policy for years has been that spending on health should be

:46:55.:47:00.

a percentage of GDP because if you have an increasing population,

:47:01.:47:03.

then your GDP goes up and then you need to spend more

:47:04.:47:06.

because you have got When you add into that

:47:07.:47:08.

the demographics, the increase in the elderly population

:47:09.:47:18.

and the new treatment is coming on board, new equipment,

:47:19.:47:21.

new drugs, all extra money, I mean, I agree with Ben

:47:22.:47:23.

that we have to come up More spending, we all agree more

:47:24.:47:27.

spending, it's where that Well, obviously, for us,

:47:28.:47:32.

saving from the EU contribution would be a significant factor

:47:33.:47:36.

and foreign aid, Sue Richards, thank you very

:47:37.:47:37.

much for joining us. And we'll be continuing to look

:47:38.:47:41.

at the problems the health service in a series of special reports

:47:42.:47:44.

across BBC South West all next week. On Friday came the surprise

:47:45.:47:46.

resignation of MP Tristam Hunt. Earlier in the week party leader

:47:47.:47:50.

Jeremy Corbyn staged I caught up with him in London

:47:51.:47:52.

and asked him what his strategy was to win back hearts and minds

:47:53.:47:56.

in the South West. Well, when the boundary

:47:57.:47:59.

changes have finally been decided upon and agreed,

:48:00.:48:01.

we will obviously be selecting We have had a big increase

:48:02.:48:03.

in membership across Somerset, Devon and Cornwall and will be

:48:04.:48:06.

selecting our candidates You're been talking a lot about pay

:48:07.:48:09.

inequality this week. Redruth, Camborne, St Ives, even,

:48:10.:48:13.

have some of the lowest wages in the whole country and some

:48:14.:48:16.

of the highest house prices These are people that really should

:48:17.:48:18.

be voting for you and yet, when we talk to them,

:48:19.:48:31.

they are moving back Why do you think that

:48:32.:48:33.

you are having a problem? There is a massive housing issue

:48:34.:48:40.

and a massive poverty issue. You can be poor and living

:48:41.:48:43.

in a beautiful place. You can live in a chocolate box

:48:44.:48:45.

like village and still be poor, still not happy bus service,

:48:46.:48:48.

still not have a job and still not be able to get to a job in a nearby

:48:49.:48:51.

town unless you can afford And so we need policies that do

:48:52.:48:55.

provide housing in those areas and do limit the amount of second

:48:56.:48:59.

homes that are empty It can't be right that an area

:49:00.:49:01.

with so much potential and so much Listen, I was born in

:49:02.:49:11.

Chippenham, I consider myself So Corbyn considers himself

:49:12.:49:18.

a son of the South West, but is the region taking him

:49:19.:49:24.

and his party to heart? In a moment we'll be

:49:25.:49:26.

asking its sole Labour MP, In truth, the Labour Party has never

:49:27.:49:29.

done well in a largely rural region. In more urban areas,

:49:30.:49:34.

only nutritional stronghold The party extended its majority

:49:35.:49:38.

on the City Council in last year's elections and retained the region's

:49:39.:49:50.

only Labour MP. But down the A38 in Plymouth,

:49:51.:49:52.

the Tories took control. It is not going to be easy

:49:53.:49:54.

because what they have is multiparty competition,

:49:55.:49:59.

a historic weakness in the rural areas, in particular, a problem

:50:00.:50:01.

of translating their undoubted increase in membership

:50:02.:50:06.

into activists and into votes. And of course, the problem

:50:07.:50:12.

that the other parties I'm on the move, too,

:50:13.:50:16.

to Bideford in North Devon where the Labour Party are hoping

:50:17.:50:22.

to take two county council David Brenton is the lone Labour

:50:23.:50:31.

member on Torridge Counil And chair He is not under Jeremy Corbyn's

:50:32.:50:36.

spell, that he is confident they can weave some magic

:50:37.:50:40.

in the council elections. We have been written off before

:50:41.:50:43.

and we are back again because Labour has always represented

:50:44.:50:46.

the grassroots people. So I have every confidence

:50:47.:50:50.

that we will come back again. It's to do with policies and that's

:50:51.:50:53.

what people vote on, policies. But many people are still confused

:50:54.:51:03.

over what those policies are and Jeremy Corbyn's attempted

:51:04.:51:06.

reboot this week seems So what would it take for people

:51:07.:51:16.

here to vote Labour? To see seriously good policies

:51:17.:51:22.

to make this community even better I would only listen if I could see

:51:23.:51:25.

some grounding in what I call economic competence for the country

:51:26.:51:30.

and also something It's a middle of the road situation,

:51:31.:51:32.

just waiting to see, Amid all the uncertainty,

:51:33.:51:38.

one thing is clear. Corbyn knows where

:51:39.:51:45.

the South West is. He campaigned here, albeit

:51:46.:51:48.

for the party leadership. But realistically,

:51:49.:51:51.

are we even on Labour's radar? Why would a party put

:51:52.:51:55.

an enormous amount of effort in to increase its standing

:51:56.:52:00.

from third or fourth place to second place when there are many other

:52:01.:52:06.

seats where they will be concentrating their resources,

:52:07.:52:09.

where they are in second place Ben, much mention their view

:52:10.:52:13.

being our Labour MP. -- lots of mention of you being our

:52:14.:52:25.

solar Labour MP. Why are you the sole person down

:52:26.:52:30.

here representing Labour? Well, we have had a bad

:52:31.:52:34.

couple of elections In Exeter, we have managed to buck

:52:35.:52:36.

that trend through a combination of a good reputation,

:52:37.:52:41.

not just about me, but a very good local Labour council

:52:42.:52:43.

who delivers for people. We are moderate, we are

:52:44.:52:45.

middle-of-the-road, we are We haven't forgotten

:52:46.:52:47.

the lessons in Exeter I'm confident that if we can put

:52:48.:52:50.

those lessons into practice for these all-important county

:52:51.:52:54.

council elections across all the counties of the South West

:52:55.:52:56.

in every part with all these new members that Jeremy has

:52:57.:52:59.

attracted, we can translate that new membership into council

:53:00.:53:01.

seats in May. Steph, could you pick up some

:53:02.:53:03.

of Labour's votes down here as Ukip? Because during the referendum

:53:04.:53:06.

campaign, I think there was a plumber who rang in to say

:53:07.:53:11.

that his pay had dropped from ?14 an hour to ?9

:53:12.:53:14.

and our since the borders have Now, crucially, the point he made

:53:15.:53:18.

was that these people They know their stuff,

:53:19.:53:22.

there are decent, pleasant But who is going to pay him ?14

:53:23.:53:26.

an hour when they can get He has lost his house, he is

:53:27.:53:30.

struggling to support his family... The immigration debate and I --

:53:31.:53:35.

it's not for me to decide what Labour's concern should be,

:53:36.:53:44.

but I think until they sort out the immigration issue,

:53:45.:53:47.

we should do very well. Tristram Hunt resigned this

:53:48.:53:49.

week to go to the V He had been quite outspoken

:53:50.:53:52.

in the past about not following Jeremy Corbyn and not

:53:53.:53:55.

believing he would be Do you think there was any more

:53:56.:53:57.

we can read into him leaving? I think he was offered

:53:58.:54:01.

his dream job! Given that, who wouldn't

:54:02.:54:03.

have taken it? I'm very sorry to see him go,

:54:04.:54:05.

he's a great loss to the party. We can't afford to lose people

:54:06.:54:08.

of his intelligence and calibre. And I worry that there are very

:54:09.:54:11.

talented Labour politicians in the generation below me,

:54:12.:54:13.

particularly those with children, who must be agonising about what to

:54:14.:54:16.

do in the current circumstances. But I would say, stay and fight

:54:17.:54:21.

because we need a strong opposition. This country has never needed

:54:22.:54:24.

a strong opposition more and we need good people to stay if we are ever

:54:25.:54:27.

going to get back A strong opposition is one thing

:54:28.:54:30.

but what you mean by the generation Is that because you don't really see

:54:31.:54:37.

that you are going to be getting No, but these are people

:54:38.:54:41.

who are very talented, many of them left but careers to get

:54:42.:54:46.

into politics and offer They have young

:54:47.:54:49.

families to support... But if you thought you were

:54:50.:55:00.

going to get into power, it would be worse than continuing

:55:01.:55:03.

to pursue this avenue of career? They look at our current standing

:55:04.:55:06.

in the opinion polls, huge gaps. They look at the fact that we had

:55:07.:55:08.

the worst ever local election results for any opposition party

:55:09.:55:12.

for more than 30 years last year and think,

:55:13.:55:14.

what am I going to do? What I would say is that things

:55:15.:55:16.

change very quickly in politics. So I would appeal to colleagues

:55:17.:55:19.

to stay and fight, help us rebuild the party to be unelectable

:55:20.:55:27.

electoral force again so that we can -- -- help -- and help us rebuild

:55:28.:55:50.

the party to be an electable force again so that we can deliver for the

:55:51.:55:52.

people in this country who need a people in this country who need a

:55:53.:55:54.

Labour government. Steph, down here, people

:55:55.:55:56.

are turning to the Lib Dems It is interesting, isn't it?

:55:57.:55:59.

I have to hand it to them. Although politically,

:56:00.:56:02.

we are miles apart, they worked very hard,

:56:03.:56:04.

they are incredible We knew that we were going to lose

:56:05.:56:05.

some support after the referendum because for a lot of people,

:56:06.:56:10.

they only got involved in politics But membership is increasing again

:56:11.:56:17.

now so you will see is coming back to give them more of a fight

:56:18.:56:22.

and they have had in the last year. On this issue of Tristram Hunt's

:56:23.:56:26.

resignation, Your former leader, Nigel Farage, tweeted

:56:27.:56:28.

that his resignation will be followed by many

:56:29.:56:29.

others, Labour is doomed. Is that something that

:56:30.:56:32.

you would go along with? Well, certainly, Paul Nuttall is out

:56:33.:56:34.

for the Labour vote in the North of England particularly in working

:56:35.:56:41.

class areas right across the country,

:56:42.:56:43.

because at the moment, If you are well off in the main,

:56:44.:56:45.

the better of people who want to see lower taxes and reduced public

:56:46.:56:51.

services are looking If your main concern

:56:52.:56:53.

is the environment, If you want to fight against

:56:54.:56:55.

the results of the referendum, If you want the power embedded

:56:56.:57:00.

back with the people, People don't know what

:57:01.:57:04.

the call philosophy Do you think Corbyn

:57:05.:57:13.

is appealing to the mainstream? Your strong support

:57:14.:57:20.

at the grassroots, but that We need to broaden our appeal

:57:21.:57:21.

but the idea that this is terminal for the Labour Party

:57:22.:57:26.

is for the birds. You need a progressive

:57:27.:57:28.

centre-left party in this country for social justice,

:57:29.:57:30.

for social progress, for a fair economy that works for people

:57:31.:57:32.

and for an internationalist outlook. They are all Labour principles

:57:33.:57:34.

which I am proud of and will Do you think you can make

:57:35.:57:37.

a comeback down here, We need to win two seats in Plymouth

:57:38.:57:41.

and we need to win Redruth, Without those three seats,

:57:42.:57:45.

we can't form a government, Now our regular round-up

:57:46.:57:52.

of the political week in 60 seconds. Plans to upgrade the A303 were

:57:53.:57:56.

backed by the government this week. This involves the development

:57:57.:57:59.

of the 1.8 mile tunnel past Stonehenge which will protect

:58:00.:58:01.

the world Heritage site from traffic, reduce local

:58:02.:58:03.

congestion and speed up journeys Concerns raised in Parliament over

:58:04.:58:05.

the reopening of a Cornish quarry in an Area of Outstanding Natural

:58:06.:58:10.

Beauty. They are concerned about the impact

:58:11.:58:12.

on the Manacles marine conservation zone, the impact on tourism

:58:13.:58:15.

and future investment and the impact One quarter of ?1 billion

:58:16.:58:18.

for Leonardo helicopters in Yeovil but the union says it

:58:19.:58:23.

won't safeguard its future. Cornwall councillors

:58:24.:58:25.

travelled to Westminster 50% of our farms are already

:58:26.:58:27.

diversifies into tourism so the European funding has been

:58:28.:58:33.

critical to allow for And West Somerset is one of six

:58:34.:58:36.

areas to get cash to pay We have a bit of time left

:58:37.:58:43.

at the end of the programme. Reports that Russia's

:58:44.:58:53.

intelligent agencies hold compromising material

:58:54.:58:57.

about him, which she denies. Ben, you have been

:58:58.:59:04.

tweeting about this. You think Theresa May

:59:05.:59:05.

should break her silence becoming all too true. You have a

:59:06.:59:23.

British intelligence agent hiding for fear of his life. The Americans

:59:24.:59:29.

are talking about it, the French and the German government are talking,

:59:30.:59:34.

our government is silent. Not acceptable. Should Theresa May be

:59:35.:59:39.

speaking out? I don't know, to be honest. I don't know where there is

:59:40.:59:43.

anything to substantiate these rumours, these allegations. Even

:59:44.:59:51.

Trump as accepted that the Russian tax the Democrats. They have

:59:52.:59:55.

something, but unfortunately, the trust in politics is now so low that

:59:56.:00:00.

I question everything and other people do as well. Isn't this why

:00:01.:00:06.

Donald Trump has been elected? Because people are just

:00:07.:00:09.

anti-politics and anti-politicians and antiestablishment? Does it worry

:00:10.:00:13.

you that your former leader has such close ties with Donald Trump?

:00:14.:00:18.

Doesn't worry me. What should be worrying the government is that if

:00:19.:00:22.

they are not going to ask him to be a link for some aspects of our

:00:23.:00:26.

relationship with the United States, what is Donald Trump going to be

:00:27.:00:30.

saying to Nigel Farage about what is going on over here? It will be

:00:31.:00:35.

one-way traffic. I will stop you there.

:00:36.:00:35.

That's the Sunday Politics in the South West.

:00:36.:00:37.

Now, if anyone thought Donald Trump would tone things down

:00:38.:00:48.

after the American election campaign, they may have

:00:49.:00:50.

The period where he has been President-elect will make them think

:00:51.:01:03.

again. The inauguration is coming up on Friday.

:01:04.:01:04.

Never has the forthcoming inauguration of a president been

:01:05.:01:06.

In a moment, we'll talk to a man who knows Mr Trump

:01:07.:01:10.

But first, let's have a look at the press conference

:01:11.:01:14.

Mr Trump gave on Wednesday, in which he took the opportunity

:01:15.:01:16.

to rubbish reports that Russia has obtained compromising information

:01:17.:01:18.

You are attacking our news organisation.

:01:19.:01:34.

Can you give us a chance, you are attacking our news

:01:35.:01:39.

organisation, can you give us a chance to ask a question, sir?

:01:40.:01:42.

As far as Buzzfeed, which is a failing pile of garbage,

:01:43.:01:48.

writing it, I think they're going to suffer the consequences.

:01:49.:01:52.

Does anyone really believe that story?

:01:53.:01:55.

I'm also very much of a germaphobe, by the way.

:01:56.:01:58.

If Putin likes Donald Trump, guess what, folks, that's called

:01:59.:02:00.

The only ones that care about my tax returns are the reporters, OK?

:02:01.:02:08.

Do you not think the American public is concerned?

:02:09.:02:10.

The Wiggo, Donald Trump at his first last conference. The Can will he

:02:11.:02:24.

change as President? Because he hasn't changed in the run-up to

:02:25.:02:28.

being inaugurated? I don't think he will commit he doesn't see any point

:02:29.:02:31.

in changing. Why would he change from the personality that just one,

:02:32.:02:36.

as he just said, I just one. All of the bleeding-heart liberals can wail

:02:37.:02:39.

and brush their teeth and say how ghastly that all this, Hillary

:02:40.:02:44.

should have won and so on, but he has got an incredible mandate.

:02:45.:02:47.

Remember, Trump has the House committee has the Senate, he will

:02:48.:02:51.

have the Supreme Court. He has incredible power right now. He

:02:52.:02:54.

doesn't have to listen to anybody. I spoke to him a couple of weeks ago

:02:55.:02:58.

specifically about Twitter, I asked him what the impact was of Twitter.

:02:59.:03:02.

He said, I have 60 million people following me on Twitter. I was able

:03:03.:03:08.

to bypass mainstream media, bypass all modern political convention and

:03:09.:03:11.

talk directly to potential voters. Secondly, I can turn on the TV in

:03:12.:03:16.

the morning, I can see a rival getting all of the airtime, and I

:03:17.:03:20.

can fire off a tweet, for free, as a marketing man he loves that, and,

:03:21.:03:24.

boom, I'm on the news agenda again. He was able to use that

:03:25.:03:28.

magnificently. Twitter to him didn't cost him a dollar. He is going to

:03:29.:03:35.

carry on tweeting in the last six weeks, he was not sleeping. Trump

:03:36.:03:43.

has never had an alcoholic drink a cigarette or a drug. He is a fit by

:03:44.:03:48.

the 70, he has incredible energy and he is incredibly competitive. At his

:03:49.:03:52.

heart, he is a businessman. If you look at him as a political

:03:53.:03:56.

ideologue, you completely missed the point of trouble. Don't take what he

:03:57.:04:00.

says literally, look upon it as a negotiating point that he started

:04:01.:04:03.

from, and try to do business with him as a business person would, and

:04:04.:04:08.

you may be presently surprised so pleasantly surprised. He treats the

:04:09.:04:13.

press and the media entirely differently to any other politician

:04:14.:04:16.

or main politician in that normally the politicians try to get the media

:04:17.:04:22.

off a particular subject, or they try to conciliate with the media. He

:04:23.:04:27.

just comes and punches the media in the nose when he doesn't like them.

:04:28.:04:33.

This could catch on, you know! You are absolutely right, for a start,

:04:34.:04:36.

nobody could accuse him of letting that victory go to his head. You

:04:37.:04:43.

know, he won't say, I will now be this lofty president. He's exactly

:04:44.:04:47.

the same as he was before. What is fascinating is his Laois and ship

:04:48.:04:50.

with the media. I haven't met, and I'm sure you haven't, met a party

:04:51.:04:54.

leader who is obsessed with the media. But they pretend not to be.

:04:55.:05:01.

You know, they state, oh, somebody told me about a column, I didn't

:05:02.:05:07.

read it. He is utterly transparent in his obsession with the media, he

:05:08.:05:12.

doesn't pretend. How that plays out, who knows? It's a completely

:05:13.:05:14.

different dynamic than anyone has seen by. Like he is the issue, he

:05:15.:05:20.

has appointed an unusual Cabinet, that you could criticise in many

:05:21.:05:24.

ways. Nearly all of them are independent people in their own

:05:25.:05:27.

right. A lot of them are wealthy, too. They have their own views. They

:05:28.:05:31.

might not like what he tweaked at 3am, and he does have to deal with

:05:32.:05:37.

his Cabinet now. Mad dog matters, now the Defence Secretary, he might

:05:38.:05:41.

not like what's said about China at three in morning - general matters.

:05:42.:05:46.

This is what gets very conjugated. We cannot imagine here in our

:05:47.:05:49.

political system any kind of appointments like this. Using the

:05:50.:05:52.

wouldn't have a line-up of billionaires of the kind of

:05:53.:05:56.

background that he has chosen -- you simply wouldn't have. But that won't

:05:57.:05:59.

stop him saying and reading what he thinks. Maybe it will cause him some

:06:00.:06:03.

internal issues when the following day he has the square rigged with

:06:04.:06:06.

whatever they think. But he's going to press ahead. Are we any clearer

:06:07.:06:15.

in terms of policy. I know policy hasn't featured hugely in this

:06:16.:06:19.

campaign of 2016. Do we have any really clear idea what Mr Trump is

:06:20.:06:25.

hoping to achieve? He has had some consistent theme going back over 25

:06:26.:06:29.

years. One is a deep scepticism about international trade and the

:06:30.:06:32.

kind of deals that America has been doing over that period. It has been

:06:33.:06:36.

so consistent that is has been hard to spin as something that you say

:06:37.:06:40.

during the course of a campaign of something to get elected.

:06:41.:06:43.

Ultimately, Piers is correct, he won't change. When he won the

:06:44.:06:46.

election committee gave a relatively magnanimous beach. I thought his ego

:06:47.:06:50.

had been sated and he had got what he wanted. He will end up governing

:06:51.:06:54.

as is likely eccentric New York liberal and everything will be fine.

:06:55.:06:58.

In the recent weeks it has come to my attention that that might not be

:06:59.:07:00.

entirely true! LAUGHTER

:07:01.:07:06.

It is a real test of the American system, the Texan bouncers, the

:07:07.:07:08.

foreign policy establishment which is about to have the orthodoxies

:07:09.:07:13.

disrupted -- the checks and balances. I think he has completely

:07:14.:07:18.

ripped up the American political system. Washington as we know it is

:07:19.:07:22.

dead. From his garage do things his way, he doesn't care, frankly, what

:07:23.:07:27.

any of us thinks -- Trump is going to do things his way. If he can

:07:28.:07:31.

deliver for the people who voted for him who fault this disenfranchised,

:07:32.:07:40.

-- who voted for him who felt this disenfranchised. They voted

:07:41.:07:43.

accordingly. They want to see jobs and the economy in good shape, they

:07:44.:07:47.

want to feel secure. They want to feel that immigration has been

:07:48.:07:52.

tightened. If Trump can deliver on those main theme for the rust belt

:07:53.:07:55.

communities of America, I'm telling you, he will go down as a very

:07:56.:08:00.

successful president. All of the offensive rhetoric and the

:08:01.:08:02.

argy-bargy with CNN and whatever it may be will be completely

:08:03.:08:06.

irrelevant. Let me finish with a parochial question. Is it fair to

:08:07.:08:13.

say quite well disposed to this country? And that he would like,

:08:14.:08:15.

that he's up for a speedy free-trade, bilateral free-trade

:08:16.:08:21.

you'll? Think we have to be sensible as the country. Come Friday, he is

:08:22.:08:25.

the president of the United States, the most powerful man and well. He

:08:26.:08:29.

said to me that he feels half British, his mum was born and raised

:08:30.:08:33.

in Scotland until the age of 18, he loves British, his mother used to

:08:34.:08:37.

love watching the Queen, he feels very, you know, I would roll out the

:08:38.:08:41.

red carpet for Trump, let him eat Her Majesty. The crucial point for

:08:42.:08:47.

us as a country is coming -- let him me to Her Majesty. If we can do a

:08:48.:08:52.

speedy deal within an 18 month period, it really sends a message

:08:53.:08:55.

that well but we are back in the game, that is a hugely beneficial

:08:56.:08:58.

thing for this country. Well, a man whose advisers were indicating that

:08:59.:09:03.

maybe he should learn a few things from Donald Trump was Jeremy Corbyn.

:09:04.:09:09.

Yes, MBE. Mr Corbyn appeared on the Andrew Marr Show this morning. --

:09:10.:09:11.

yes, indeed. If you don't win Copeland,

:09:12.:09:15.

and if you don't win Stoke-on-Trent Central,

:09:16.:09:17.

you're toast, aren't you? Our party is going to fight very

:09:18.:09:18.

hard in those elections, as we are in the local elections,

:09:19.:09:23.

to put those policies out there. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:24.:09:26.

the Government on the NHS. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:27.:09:28.

them on the chaos of Brexit. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:29.:09:31.

them on the housing shortage. It's an opportunity to challenge

:09:32.:09:33.

them on zero-hours contracts. Is there ever a moment that you look

:09:34.:09:36.

in the mirror and think, you know what, I've done my best,

:09:37.:09:40.

but this might not be for me? I look in the mirror

:09:41.:09:44.

every day and I think, let's go out there and try

:09:45.:09:46.

and create a society where there are opportunities for all,

:09:47.:09:49.

where there aren't these terrible levels of poverty, where

:09:50.:09:51.

there isn't homelessness, where there are houses for all,

:09:52.:09:53.

and where young people aren't frightened of going to university

:09:54.:09:56.

because of the debts they are going to end up

:09:57.:09:58.

with at the end of their course. Mr Corbyn earlier this morning.

:09:59.:10:06.

Steve, would it be fair to say that the mainstream of the Labour Party

:10:07.:10:09.

has now come to the conclusion that they just have to let Mr Corbyn get

:10:10.:10:13.

on with it, that they are not going to try and influence what he does.

:10:14.:10:18.

They will continue to try and have their own views, but it's his show,

:10:19.:10:22.

it's up to him, if it's a mess, he has to live with it and we'll have

:10:23.:10:26.

clean hands? For now, yes. I think they made a mistake when he was

:10:27.:10:29.

first elected to start in some cases tweeting within seconds that it was

:10:30.:10:33.

going to be a disaster, this was Labour MPs. They made a complete

:10:34.:10:37.

mess of that attempted coup in the summer, which strengthened his

:10:38.:10:43.

position. And he did, it gave Corbyn the space with total legitimacy to

:10:44.:10:46.

say that part of the problem is, we're having this public Civil War.

:10:47.:10:52.

In keeping quiet, that disappeared as part of the explanation for why

:10:53.:10:56.

Labour and low in the polls. I think they are partly doing that. But they

:10:57.:11:02.

are also struggling, the so-called mainstream Labour MPs, to decide

:11:03.:11:06.

what the distinctive agenda is. It's one of the many differences with the

:11:07.:11:10.

80s, where you had a group of people sure of what they believed in, they

:11:11.:11:14.

left to form the SDP. What's happening now is that they are

:11:15.:11:18.

leaving politics altogether. That is a crisis of social Democrats all

:11:19.:11:22.

across Europe, including the French Socialists, as we will find out

:11:23.:11:26.

later in the spring. Let Corbyn because then, that's the strategy.

:11:27.:11:33.

There is a weary and sometimes literal resignation from the

:11:34.:11:35.

moderates in the Labour Party. If you talk to them, they are no longer

:11:36.:11:38.

angry, they have always run out of steam to be angry about what's going

:11:39.:11:41.

on. They are just sort of tired and feel that they've just got to see

:11:42.:11:44.

this through now. I think the by-elections will be interesting.

:11:45.:11:48.

When Andrew Marr said, you're toast, and you? I thought, he's never

:11:49.:11:53.

posed! That was right. A quick thought from view? One thing Corbyn

:11:54.:11:57.

has in common with Trump is immunity to bad news. I think he can lose

:11:58.:12:07.

Copeland and lose Stoke, and as long as it is not a sequence of

:12:08.:12:09.

resignations and by-elections afterwards, with maybe a dozen or 20

:12:10.:12:12.

Labour MPs going, he can still enjoy what. It may be more trouble if

:12:13.:12:14.

Labour loses the United trade union elections. We are in a period of

:12:15.:12:20.

incredible unpredictability generally in global politics. If you

:12:21.:12:24.

look at the way the next year plays out, if for example brags it was a

:12:25.:12:28.

disaster and it starts to unravel very quickly, Theresa May is

:12:29.:12:31.

attached to that, clearly label would have a great opportunity

:12:32.:12:35.

potentially disease that higher ground, and when Eddie the Tories --

:12:36.:12:38.

Labour would have an opportunity. Is Corbyn the right guy? We interviewed

:12:39.:12:43.

him, what struck me was that he talked about being from, a laughable

:12:44.:12:48.

comparison, but when it is really laughable is this - Hillary Clinton,

:12:49.:12:53.

what were the things she stood for, nobody really knew? What does Trump

:12:54.:12:57.

stand for? Everybody knew. Corbyn has the work-out four or five

:12:58.:13:01.

messages and bang, bang, bang. He could still be in business. Thank

:13:02.:13:03.

you for being with us. I'll be back at the same

:13:04.:13:05.

time next weekend. Remember - if it's Sunday,

:13:06.:13:08.

it's the Sunday Politics.

:13:09.:13:10.

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