19/01/2014 Sunday Politics South

Morning, folks. Welcome to the Sunday Politics. Nick Clegg says

Chris Rennard must apologise. "What for?", say his friends. We'll ask

senior Lib Dem minister Danny Alexander whose side he's on.

What about the voters? What do they make of the Lib Dems? We hear the

views of a Sunday Politics focus group.

In the South: Should we be looking to the 1950s for a solution to our

house`building crisis? Building a whole new town could be a

better answer than piecemeal developments.

Portsmouth MP Penny Mordaunt's plunge from the highboard from who

else but the Minister for Portsmouth.

And with me, as always, the best and the brightest political panel in the

business: and in London, Boris Johnson has pledged to recruit more

volunteers. Nick Watt, Helen Lewis and Janan Ganesh, who'll be tweeting

throughout the programme. First this morning, Nick Clegg is

considering a fresh investigation into the behaviour of the party s

former chief executive, Lord Rennard. Last week, a lawyer

appointed by the party decided that no action could be taken against

him, but that women who had accused the Lib Dem peer of inappropriate

behaviour "were broadly credible". More than 100 party activists are

demanding an apology. Chris Rennard say he's nothing to apologise for

and the party whip must be returned to him. Helen, this is not going

away. It is turning into a crisis for the Lib Dems? They have only got

seven female MPs. There is no female Cabinet Minister. There is a

reasonable chance that after the next election there might in no

female Liberal Democrat MPs at all. A scandal like this will not

encourage women into the party. Have they made a complete mess of it You

feel for Nick Clegg, because he launched an utterly rigorous

process. He called in a QC. The QC looked at it and decided that the

evidence did not meet the burden of proof in a criminal trial. But

clearly he felt that the evidence from these women was very credible

and serious. He said it was broadly credible. Clearly it was serious.

Rennard is being advised by Lord Carlisle, fellow Liberal Democrat

peer, who is giving purely legal advice. He is saying it has not

reached that edge-mac, so do not apologise. This is a political

issue, so the agony continues. Nick Clegg was hoping to keep the party

whip withdrawn. But they did not launch an enquiry, the Webster

enquired it was not an enquiry, it was a legal opinion. You're right,

it was an internal opinion. The Lib Dems distinguished themselves from

the other two parties not with policy, but with ethics. They

presented themselves as being cleaner, and in possession of more

Robert Jay than Labour and the Conservatives. That will be harder

to do now. -- more probity. There are a Lib Dem peers that are more

relaxed about taking him back and letting him pick up the party whip.

That is the problem. There is a generational issue. The older Lib

Dems in the House of Lords, the kind of thing, he did not do anything

that wrong. The younger activists and those outside the House of

Lords, they think it is a pollen. Yes, there is definitely a sort of

what you are complaining about sort of thing. That is symptomatic of a

cultural difference. The report last year found that they tried to manage

the allegations. They did not do what any company would do if there

was an allegation of sexual harassment. If there had not in the

by-election in Eastleigh, this story may not have got the attention it

did. Channel four news are the one that really drove this. Without

their reporting, this might not have come out. It is not going to go

away, because the issue of whether he gets the party whip back will

come week. -- will come up this week.

So it's not been a great week for the Liberal Democrats and none of

this will help public perceptions of a party already struggling in the

polls. In a moment, I'll be talking to the second most senior Liberal

Democrat in the land, Danny Alexander. First, Adam Fleming went

to Glasgow to find out what voters there made of the party.

Let's put the Lib Dems under the microscope in Glasgow. We have

recruited some Glaswegians who have voted for them, and some who have

not. Hello, John. Let's get started. I will be watching them through the

one-way mirror, along with the former Liberal Democrat MP John

Barrett. Let's get to the heart of the matter straightaway. If the Lib

Dems were a biscuit, what would they be? Tunnock's Teacake. Hard on the

outside but soft in the middle. They give in. There is no strength of

character there. They just give in to whoever. Ouch. Rich Tea. A bit

bland and boring. Melts and crumbles under any sort of heat and pressure.

Morrison's own brand of biscuit not top of the range like Marks

Spencer or Sainsbury's or Waitrose. A custard cream, sandwiched between

David Cameron and the Tories. I think they were concerned that they

had one exterior, but something else was really inside. They did not find

it too definitive, too clear, too concise, too tasty, too appealing.

Which means? It is a worry. If that is their gut reaction, literally,

let's find out what is behind it. The context of them being stuck

between a rock and a hard place for them as a party, I feel slightly

sorry for them. I think people who voted for them will think they are

victims as well, being sold down the river by going to the coalition I

think the ones, particularly student fees, that was an important one to a

lot of people. People felt cheated. I agree. Just going back on that, so

publicly and openly, it makes you think, well, what do they stand for?

It is trust. Harsh. But our group is feeling quite upbeat about the state

of the economy. What have the Lib Dems contributed to that? I am not

quite sure. It is George Osborne, a Conservative, who is the Chancellor,

so it is mostly down to him. The Liberal Democrats are mostly on

their coat tails, if you know what I mean. Have the Lib Dems done

anything, anyone? I think the Liberal Democrats were responsible

for increasing the tax allowance, ?10,000 for next year. I think they

have played a major role in that. Yes. I am glad somebody noticed

that. We will have helped everyone who is receiving a salary, and it is

interesting that nobody has mentioned that. Now, let's talk

about personalities. Everyone knows him, but what about say, this guy?

Alexander. Danny, they got it straightaway. I actually quite like

him. I think he talks very clearly and it is easy to understand what he

says. Fellow redhead Charles Kennedy is popular as well. He is very

charismatic and it is through him that I voted Liberal the last few

times. But who is this? I recognise him but I cannot tell you his name.

That is the party's leader in Scotland, Willie Rennie, and the

party's role in the upcoming referendum on independence draws a

blank as well. It does not feel like they have featured, it is SNP and

Labour and Conservative. They are last in a four horse race. We have

been talking about the biggest issue in Scottish politics, independence

and the referendum and the Lib Dems are nowhere. They are not mentioned

and they seem to think it is all about Labour and the SNP. The Lib

Dems are part of the Better Together campaign and we are being drowned

out among that. Looking to the future, what messages do voters have

for the Lib Dems? Get a backbone. Do not go back on your policies or your

word. Be strong and decisive. If you will pardon the expression, man up.

DIY, do it yourself. Do not award bankers and other people for

failure. Stand up. Be your own person, party. If that focus group

represented the whole country, what would the result for the Lib Dems be

at 2015 in the election? If they get the message across between now and

then, the result could be OK. If they do not get the message across,

the result could be disaster. Maybe they would do a lot better on their

own. I do not think you are seeing the true Lib Dems because they are

in the coalition. They maybe deserve another chance. Crucially for the

Lib Dems, that means there is some hope, but there is also plenty of

anger, some disappoint, and a bit of bafflement as well.

And watching that with me, senior Liberal Democrat and Chief Secretary

to the Treasury Danny Alexander Welcome to the programme. One of the

things that comes through from the focus group is that if there is any

credit around for the economic recovery, it is the Tories that are

getting it, and you are not? What can you do about that? The first

thing to say is that the economy would not be recovering if it was

not for the Liberal Democrats. If it was not for our decision right

beginning in 2010 to form a strong, stable coalition government that to

deal with the problems, we would still be in the mess that Labour

left us with. Why are you not getting the credit? That was one

focus group. It was interesting to hear opinions. We have to work very

hard to get across the message that the economy would not be recovering

without the Liberal Democrats. People would not be seeing the

largest income tax cuts for a generation without the Liberal

Democrats. The ?10,000 threshold that one of the people referred to

is coming into peoples pay packets this year. Lots of people recognise

that. There was the one person in the focus groups. This is your

measure of success, raising the people at which people pay income

tax. But most of the voters do not even give you credit for that. The

role that we haven't British politics as a party, is that we are

the only party that can be trusted to deliver a fair society and a

strong economy. People know they cannot trust the Labour Party. We

saw it again from Ed Miliband this morning. You cannot trust the Labour

Party with the nation's finances. It may well be your policy, the income

tax threshold, but it is the Tories that are getting the credit? I do

not think that is true. I have spent lots of time meeting photos and lots

of people recognise that if it was not for the Liberal Democrats,

people would not be seeing those tax cuts. We are helping disadvantaged

children in schools. It is right that we have to work very hard

between now and polling day to do several things, to make sure that we

secure the recovery, there can be no complacency. The economic recovery

is in its early stages and we need to make sure it is sustainable. We

need to make sure the benefits of the recovery are shared out people

who have made sacrifices, people on low pay, people who have seen their

savings are eroded. The Tories have now hijacked another Lib Dem

policy, another big hike in the minimum wage. You spoke about the

need to make sure that people on low pay benefit from the recovery, a big

hike in the minimum wage. Did the Chancellor consulting on this? We

have been talking about it for some time. Vince Cable asked the low pay

commission for advice on this. Why did Vince Cable not make this

announcement, why was it the Chancellor? Let me say a few other

things about this. If we are going to secure the recovery, this year we

have to make sure that businesses start investing. We have got to get

Roddick typically rising. An increase in the minimum wage is

something that needs to follow that. We will not do it unless the low pay

commission adviser as it is important for the economy at this

stage. Did you know the Chancellor was coming out with that statement?

I did not know he was going to say something on that particular day. We

have worked together on it in the tragedy to see what the economic

impact would be, and to emphasise that it is the commission, which has

credibility with business, trade unions and government. It must not

be a politically motivated increase. So you did not know, and Vince

Cable, and it is properly a matter for him as the Business Secretary,

he did not make the announcement? I don't think that's right. I don t

clear every word I say with him I don't expect him to do the same to

me. The Lib Dems have told us before it was the Treasury that was

blocking this from happening. We were going to ask the low pay

commission to advise us on bringing the minimum wage back up. During the

financial crisis, wages have been lower-than-expected but it's also

right, we shouldn't act in a hasty way, we should listen to what the

commission has to say, and if they don't recommend an increase we have

to make sure economic conditions are there to get it right. Not only are

the Tories getting credit for that, our Scottish voters group showed

that people have still not forgiven you for ratting on tuition fees and

that was a broken promise that didn't even apply to the people in

Scotland, where there are no tuition fees! Nick Clegg has been very clear

about the issues that that brought up. If you look at our manifesto,

the University of London said we delivered about 70% of our policies

in the manifesto. They haven't forgiven you for the big one. The

big promise we made was to cut income tax the millions of people.

That is a policy which is putting money back into the pockets of

working people. It is only possible because we are delivering our

economic plan in government with the Conservatives. Now we have to make

sure, through tax cuts, through looking at issues like the minimum

wage and other groups who have made sacrifices, make sure that benefit

is shared. I am not going to agree to anything which undermines the

confidence of businesses to invest in this country over the next 1

months. Speaking of Scotland, the Lib Dems, why do they now look

largely irrelevant in the battle for the union? Not one of our focus

group even knew who your Scottish leader is. I don't accept that. I

have spent a lot of time with Alistair Carmichael and others, we

are all making the case every day. If Scotland votes to be independent,

it will be in a much worse financial position within the European Union.

Scotland will be contributing to the rebate for the UK, rather than

benefiting from it. It has been a disaster for your Scottish based to

have joined a coalition with the Tories. It may have been the right

thing to do, you say it is in the national interest, but Scottish Lib

Dems did not expect to be in a coalition with the Tories. By the

way I think it is also in the national interests and the interests

of the people for Scotland, cutting the income tax of Scottish people,

stabilising the economy. We are now seeing good growth. But you are in

meltdown. I don't accept that. We will see what happens in the 20 5

election. I think we have a record to be proud of, we have played a

very important role in clearing up the mess Labour made in the

economy, of making sure the Coalition government tackles the

problems in this country, but does so in a fair way. I think the

biggest risks to the economic recovery over the next few years is

either a majority Labour government or a majority Conservative

government. Labour you cannot trust with the finances, the Tories want

us to play chicken with the European Union which would truly be a

disaster to investment in this country. You announced this week

that if Scotland votes to leave the UK, it would be the British Treasury

that would guarantee all British government debt. There wouldn't be a

negotiation, but the backstop would be that even if they didn't take

anything, we would still guarantee the debt. What was happening in the

markets that you needed to calm them down? We were getting quite a few

questions from the people we rely on to lend us money. We are still

borrowing billions of pounds every month as a country. Those people

were asking us to clarify this point. It was becoming a serious

concern? It wasn't reflected in the guilty yields. I follow the bond

market quite carefully and there was no sign this was having an impact.

That's why the right thing to do was to clarify this point now, rather

than the concerns being reflected in what you imply, and I think it is a

bad idea for Scotland to vote for separation but it would be wrong to

allow for the fact that question is on the table to cost taxpayers in

the UK more money and higher interest payments simply because

Alex Salmond has put that question on the table. That's why I think it

was the right thing to do. There were a lot of calls from the focus

group that you need to be different. Nick Clegg has embarked on this

aggressive differentiation. Where you can be different is the

bankers' bonuses. What conceivable reason could there be for anybody at

RBS getting a bonus twice in their salary? We have not been approached

by RBS in terms of those votes. I would be sceptical about an approach

from RBS if it can. It shows what we have presided over as a party in

government, massive reductions. . I'm not asking you about that, I'm

asking what conceivable case there can be for a bank that has failed to

sell its branches even though ordered by the Government, still has

38 billion of toxic debt on its balance sheet, I ask again what

possible reason should they get twice salary as a bonus? Your right

to say RBS is in a very different position to other banks, it is

mostly owned by the state. RBS hasn't put a case to us but they

might do so I would like to look at what they would say, but I would be

sceptical as to whether a case could be made given some of the things you

said, but also the fact that it is a bank that has benefited from the

taxpayer standing behind it. Now RBS has to focus more on domestic

retail. Let me turn to Chris Rennard, ten women have accused him

of sexual harassment. He denies every case. Who do you believe? We

have been through a process on this as a party. A report has been issued

on this. I agree with Alistair Webster on this, he has made clear

that while he cannot prove what happened to a criminal standard

that there is clear there has been considerable distress and harm

caused. I agree with him about that and that's why it is necessary for

Chris Rennard to apologise as he has been asked to do. If he refuses to

apologise, should he be denied the Lib Dem whip in the Lords? I don't

think he should be readmitted to the Liberal Democrat group in the House

of Lords until such time as the disciplinary process, including the

apology, has been done properly We are very democratic party, it is a

matter for our group in the House of Lords in due course to make that

judgement. Party HQ has had a lot of complaints from party members about

the fact no apology has been made. The appropriate committee would need

to look at that and decide what action needs to be taken because

these are very serious matters. We as a party have learned a lot, taken

a long, hard look at ourselves, to change the way we work. The apology

does need to be made. We are told that Lord Newby, the Chief Whip of

the Liberal Democrats in the House of Lords, we are told he has shaken

hands with Chris Rennard and welcomed him back. That decision has

not been taken yet. I think Lord Newby would share my view on this.

Have you shaken his hand and welcomed him back? No, I haven't.

Does Nick Clegg have the power to deny Chris Rennard as the whip? I am

making it clear that a lack of apology is totally unacceptable and

therefore we have to take steps if that is not forthcoming. His view

and my view is that Lord Rennard should not be readmitted to the

House of Lords if that is not forthcoming. In our party, our group

in the House of Lords has two in the end take a view for itself. And they

can override Nick Clegg's view? I hope that when they look at this...

Do they have the power to override Nick Clegg? They have the power to

decide who should be the whip. The failure to follow up the simple

human demand for an apology for the stress that has been caused is

totally unacceptable. Your party is totally down lighted on this --

divided on this. Here is what Lord Carlile had to say. A total

nonsense, hyperbole. It is a ridiculous statement to make and we

have seen Alistair Webster, the QC who did this investigation, comment

on that himself this morning. He has followed the process the party laid

down in its rules, which sets the standard for the investigation which

asked him to report on the evidence he has found, but he also has a duty

of confidentiality and responsibility under the data

protection legislation as well. Here is what your activists have said in

a letter to the Guardian. This shows there are strong opinions, but why

should Chris Rennard apologise for something he denies, unproven

allegations, on an unpublished report that Chris Rennard has not

been allowed to read? He should apologise because he wants to

continue to be a member of the Liberal Democrats and this is the

recommendation that has been made by the internal disciplinary process.

Webster himself said this was not an inquiry, it is an opinion. If Chris

Rennard apologises on this basis, he opens himself to civil lawsuits He

says he is not going to do it. As a Liberal Democrat you join the party

because you believe in its values, you abide by its rules. One of those

rules is that we have a process if there are disciplinary allegations.

The committee of the party supported Webster's recommendations, one of

which was that an apology should be made because he clearly found

distress had been caused. Will there now be a proper inquiry? I don't

think any of these legalistic things, I don't think he can have it

both ways. Will there be a proper inquiry? Alistair Webster did do a

proper inquiry. There was a proper report into what happened at the

time and we have learned a lot from this is a party, and the most

important thing now is that Chris Rennard apologises. You have made

that clear. What kind of biscuits are you? Are you a Tunnocks? Soft on

the inside? It is good of you to be advertising a Scottish product. We

just wondered if you weren't tough enough to take on Ed Balls. Thank

you. More than tough enough is the answer to that.

Generally governments are a bit rubbish at IT projects. They tend to

run way over budget and never quite achieve what they promised. So the

revelations of a former spy that the US and British security agencies

were in fact astonishingly efficient at eavesdropping on the digital

communications of their citizens came as a bit shock. But just how

worried should we be about their clandestine activity?

In his latest revelation, former US by Edward Snowden has claimed that

America's National Security Agency operates a secret database called

Dishfire. It collect 200 million mobile phone messages every day from

around the world, accessed, he says, why British and American spies. This

week, the president has outlined a series of surveillance reforms,

including Ning to the storage of the phone call information of millions

of Americans, and no Morse -- and no more spying on allies like Angela

Merkel. Critics say that the British intelligence agencies have refused

to acknowledge even the need for a debate on the issue. The Foreign

Secretary William six says that we have a very strong system of checks

and balances. -- William Hague. ?? new line Nick Pickles is director of

the pressure group Big Brother Watch. The Labour MP Hazel Blears in

on Parliament's Intelligence And Security Committee. They're here to

go head to head. Welcome to both of you. Hazel

Blears, let me come to you first. President Obama has made some major

changes as a result of what we have learned that the NSA in America was

up to. But British politicians seem to, they are not up for this kind of

thing, they are hoping it will go away? It is not going away and that

is why my committee, the Intelligence And Security Committee,

has decided to launch an enquiry into whether the legal framework is

up-to-date. We have had massive technological change. We have had a

call for evidence. Some of the sessions will be open so that people

can see what the evidence is. Obviously some of the information

will have to be classified, but on the committee, there is a real

commitment to say, there is a big debate going on, let's see if the

system is as Rob asked as we can make it. The big question is

oversight and the call for evidence that the committee has issued is not

mention oversight. It is ten years since the Foreign Affairs Committee

said that the committee should be a fully elected committee chosen by

Parliament and not the Prime Minister. It has changed, actually.

The Prime Minister nominates people and the house gets to him -- gets to

approve. In America, they have a separation of power, the president

does not nominate Kennedy. Basically, Hazel Blears, you're an

establishment lackey? I do not think so. Most of the people on the

committee have some experience of intelligence and these issues. In

this country, we have robust scrutiny, compared to some of her

European neighbours. We have Parliamentary scrutiny, the

interception commissioners, and ministers have to sign the warrants.

But there may be room for improvement, which is why we are

having the enquiry. Do not forget, President Obama said that the agency

should not have the ability to collect data, he wanted to put more

safeguards in. That is essential for the work of the agencies. If you

cannot see the data, you cannot take the connections and see the

patterns. Some people never talk about the threat from terrorism, it

is all about travesty. There are several thousand people in this

country, as we are talking, who are actively planning to do a country

harm. When this debate started in the US, the NSA head stood up and

said there are 54 plots that have been detected by this capability

that has detected and that in bulk. Now the head of the NSA has admitted

that the number is actually zero. It is not the intelligence committee in

the US that did the work to reduce that number, it was a Judiciary

Committee. The fact that we have two different bodies doing this in this

country, it means that you do not get the correct view. How can people

have confidence in a body when if you go around Europe, for example,

or the world, we are not at the end not requiring judges to not sign

warrants? I do not accept that the committee failed on that range of

issues. You look at the reports on 7/7. Two reports by the committee

get to the heart of it. If you look at that terrorist attack on our

country, people will say, why did you not have them on the radar? The

agencies are between a rock and a hard race. They have got to be

subject to oversight, but beanie capability. Did you know about

Dishfire? We go to GCHQ on a regular basis and I know about the

capabilities that we have got. Some of the names of these programmes, we

would not necessarily know. But did you know that GCHQ had the

capability to use Dishfire, or to get Dishfire material from the NSA?

I knew and my committee knew that we had the capability to collect data,

and these days, people do not write letters, they do not use landline

telephones, they use the Internet and text in, so it is important that

the agencies are able to keep up with that take the logical change.

What should happen? The proper legal framework should include, if a

company is cooperating, as Google and Facebook do, it should be

illegal for GCHQ to hack into them. In the US, Lundberg estimate that

this has driven a 35mm and hole in the US economy because people do not

trust but there are systems are secure. We need to know that GCHQ

are not trying to use a different door into the system, whether by

hacking or foreign intelligence. We need judicial oversight with judges

and not politicians signing off. The final 30 seconds to you. As a result

of the changes in the Justice and Security act, the committee is

accountable to Parliament and not the Prime Minister. Those changes

are taking place, and I am up for the debate if we need more change or

not. But I want British agencies to have more power to protect the

people in this country. Thank you to both of you. It's coming up to

11:40. You're watching the Sunday Politics. Coming up in just over 20

minutes, we'll get the verdict of the Minister for Portsmouth on that

dive from the Portsmouth MP. Ouch! Welcome to Sunday Politics South, my

name is Peter Henley. On today's show: It worked after the

Second World War, could it work today?

Is the solution to the housing crisis not building 100 homes here

and there, but building whole new towns?

More on that shortly. First, let's meet the two politicians who will be

here for the next 20 minutes. Keith House, the Liberal Democrat leader

of Eastleigh Borough Council, and Royston Smith, former leader of

Southampton City Council and the Conservative candidate for

Southampton Itchen. This week, the Prime Minister, in

front of the Liaison Committee, was singing the benefits of shale gas

extraction, fracking. You tried to get it banned on council land. Why?

Yes, we did. We took the view that if we are really serious about

moving to a non`carbon economy and promoting renewables, we had to

forsake shale gas. That is not saying shale gas is any worse than

oil and gas drilled from under the sea. But it is about priorities, and

we want renewables to be given a much higher priority. What do you

think? Is the Prime Minister right on this? He says that opponents of

shale gas are irrational, religiously opposed to it. I guess

that includes you. Well, I don't know about whether people are

irrational or religiously opposed, but if we look back where we were

five years ago with renewables, and we look forward about where we might

like to be in five years' time, what we do know is we will not get rid of

dependence on fossilised fuels. So, fracking and shale gas, if it is

going to bring the cost of energy down and give local authorities

extra money, if it gives people the right through the planning process

to say they want it or they do not, I have no problem with it. It is a

choice we will all have to make. There is no evidence that it is

going to bring the cost of energy down. The reality is it is more

likely to be that it pushes back the time when we actually take

renewables seriously. Royston? It is going to create 74,000 jobs, and the

economy is crying out for more jobs, so I think, you know, from that

point of view alone, we need to be able to use everything at our

disposal, and shale gas is part of that. You could have those with

renewables, too. A discussion to be had, certainly.

The Government announced this week that Michael Fallon is to be the new

Minister for Portsmouth, the first time a city has had its own minister

since Michael Heseltine pronounced himself the Minister for Merseyside

back in the early '80s. Mr Fallon is also a minister shared between two

other departments. I spoke to him earlier and started by asking him

how long he expected to be in the job.

Well, I have been appointed to do it, there is no time limit. This is

not a temporary thing. There is a job of work to be done in ensuring

Portsmouth comes through the challenge of the shipyard closure

and that we are able to build and more broadly balance the civil

marine and maritime sector. That is not going to happen overnight, but

I'm determined to play my part to help. So, in terms of your success,

how should we judge what you do? What will be a good indication?

Well, I would hope the development of a more broadly based local

economy that builds on the strengths of maritime and marine and the

skills that are there in the shipyard but leads to more

private`sector job creation, particularly amongst small and

medium`sized enterprises. One of the groups bidding to get into the yard

says that they could build the new offshore patrol group vessel cheaper

in Portsmouth than Glasgow. Would that offer be considered? Well,

there have been a number of proposals put to my department over

the last few months which have come to us, and we have looked to see

whether they are commercially credible or not. We are very

restricted as a Government as to how we can assist shipbuilding. There

are very strict European Union rules about that. Obviously, we look at

every single one... This is an MOD decision. A new offshore patrol

vessel, the one that is currently up in Glasgow, if it could be built

cheaper by a company other than BAE in Portsmouth, that is fair

competition, isn't it? Well, it could well be. As I have said, we

have had a number of expressions of interest in reutilising the yard. Of

course, we will continue to look at that. We also... So it will be used

for Navy warship building, still? Well, you know, that does not look

at the moment likely because BAE have taken their decision. But as I

said, we will look at any of these particular expressions of interest,

but we also have to focus on the bigger picture of how we develop a

wider civil as well as naval maritime and marine sector that can

support lots of smaller and medium`sized businesses rather than

simply the yard itself. OK, so along with Vince Cable and Philip Hammond,

and the local MPs, you have been fully across the developments at

Portsmouth. Why weren't you made the minister back in October? Well, we

have been tracking the situation with BAE in Portsmouth for many

months now. My officials and other ministers, including Vince Cable,

have been very much aware of the situation in Portsmouth. We have

visited, I was there last year... So why didn't you take up the job back

in October rather than waiting until now? Well, I was only offered the

job on Thursday night, so it is a matter for the Prime Minister to

decide how these things are done. But let's be clear... So is this an

admission of failure, that the two MPs haven't been doing enough up

until now? No, certainly not. It is an awareness that now is the time,

given the city deal has been signed, given a series of Government funding

streams have been made available to Portsmouth, not least through the

Regional Growth Fund that I have been involved in, now is the time as

the closure approaches for us to seize the challenge and make sure

this is properly coordinated, that Portsmouth has a champion across

Whitehall and the other Government departments, and that everybody

works together to make sure we make the most of this opportunity after

what has been quite a difficult time. OK, we wish you luck. Minister

for Portsmouth, will there be ministers for other places or is

this a one`off, do you think? I think there is a unique challenge

here for Portsmouth. It has a long, proud history. Great strengths and

great skills. We need to go through that know and through the other side

and make sure we have a more broadly based local economy. I do not think

that necessarily means you'll have a minister for every other city. This

is a recognition that Portsmouth faces a unique challenge and there

is a job to be done to coordinate everybody's efforts to make sure we

come through it. OK, Michael Fallon, thank you very much. Thank you.

We could have a minister for Eastleigh, I suppose. The Minister

for Southampton. To use Vince Cable phrase, could this suck the life out

of the area? No, he gave a good explanation of the circumstances in

Portsmouth. It is good Vince Cable has freed up a minister to give

extra help to a city with specific issues. Vince Cable is behind this.

He said, I am in the Minister for Portsmouth, we do not need specific

ministers is commission might `` ministers! Now, there is specific

issues here, and if that means extra people can tackle this, that is good

for Portsmouth as a whole. This is an admission that this is not just a

commercial issue. But this is the Government closely involved with

commissioning of warships and they have responsibility in it. Well, I

think so. Obviously so. This is not a political decision about what has

happened shipbuilding in Portsmouth. That is a commercial decision taken

commercially as you would expect. To take extra resources politically

into an area will be have had this issue with shipbuilding and to make

sure we do something quickly to bring it back and protect jobs in

Portsmouth, that is not a bad thing. That is a positive thing. Is there a

chance here that it might work out very well and it will be seen that

the Minister for Portsmouth has brought all this about? He has been

given the opposite of a poisoned chalice, whatever that is. This

Government stands for localism. We do more things from the top ten,

that is a good thing and very much welcome. I had UKIP saying this is a

political scam, spin, covering it all up. It is almost a no`win

situation. If the governments did not do anything, everyone would be

banging the drum saying whether as a Government when mini demos? Now they

have put in a minister to oversee this and we should see it as a

positive. It's that time of year again when

councils are setting their budgets. Oxfordshire County Council says it

has to save ?93 million over the next four years and last year held a

series of public consultations to hear where people thought those

savings should and shouldn't be made. So what has been the end

result? Our Oxfordshire political reporter Helen Catt has been finding

out. An estimated 800,000 trees grow

along the public highways here in Oxfordshire. The County Council is

responsible for many of them and has to keep them safe but not

necessarily looking pretty. That is an expense it thinks it could easily

print. One of the proposals is not cutting back the vegetation so much.

We have to make sure we have the safety displays and signs clearly

visible, but do we need to cut the grass is often? It might mean it is

a bit untidy, but if we then say we can carry on doing other services, I

think people will understand. You might think some of the things the

council does not have to do unsurprising. It is not have to

provide street lighting. It has to give us a way of cycling day`to`day

rubbish, but not any litter through DIY. For other services, like

libraries, it has to provide a service, but what level of service

that is is up to the council. But around ?2.5 million is set to be cut

from non`statutory services a bit closer to home, like welfare

advice, homeless hostels and subsidies for Meals on Wheels. When

it comes to Meals on Wheels, are they are the different ways now?

When we provided the services earlier, there was not home

delivery. Can home deliveries be better utilised to provide services?

It is not a question of simply saying we are stopping this and will

not do it, we will be working with people to actually see if we can

provide services in a different way and at a better cost value. In

October, an idea to close 37 children's centres to save ?5

million was leaked, causing uproar. It is not made it into budget plans.

One of the big issues that came out early on when the budget was

formalised was about children's centres. A lot of work around that

showed that actually, we do not need to provide it as a statutory

service. We looked at it and investigated and we see we have to

make challenging savings, about ?3 million overall, but we are still

providing services above what we need to provide. When the proposals

were announced, you sort of undertook to save that no

children's centres would close. Is that a principle you're going to

base this review on? I knew going into it thinking, we will not shut a

single children's centre? I was very clear in saying that it did not

envisage any children's centres closing. When you work through the

review, we will have to see what comes out at the end. I do not

envisage any closures, but we have to understand all, see where we can

save money and provide good services for residents. Subsidised transport

is being reviewed to save another ?3 million and grants to village halls

and two arts centres are being stopped. But will it be enough to

cope with pressures from bad weather, elderly people and ever

decreasing money to Government? How can you be sure you will not balance

the budget this year and come June, you're going to get another

bombshell? We give you the budget every year and have to work within

the parameters that come forward. For instance, George Osborne has

just announced it will be an additional ?25 billion of savings in

the next Parliament. That will impact on local Government. We have

to work smarter and leaner. Whatever is thrown at us, we have got to rise

to the challenge. There might very well be another statement in June.

If there is, it will be disappointing but we will have to

work to those figures. There are concerns amongst some that if those

figures keep going down, councils might start struggle to deliver even

the statutory duties. At those public meetings in

Oxfordshire, a lot of people said, let's increase council tax by more

than the limit. Let's put it up by 4%, 10%, let's keep up services. Why

not fight to keep the services? Groups of people who feel

disproportionately affected will see that. I understand that. Councils,

all they need to do, if they want to protect services by putting council

to some and not look for savings and efficiencies, is to propose a higher

council tax and put it to the public. It is happening in Brighton.

Only one council the country is doing it. Precisely. We will see how

that works out. If they want to do that, they can. No`one has chosen to

do that yet apart from the Greens in Brighton. Surely that should be a

push back against this cut. 43% cut. Local Government has had higher

levels of cuts and other parts of the public sector, mainly to protect

health and education, which have been seen as national priorities.

The answer is not referendums on higher council tags, the answer is

for local Government always look for more deficiencies, new ways of doing

things. In Eastleigh, this year will be the 11th year of real cut in

counsel to. We have not cut services however. As long as I have known

you, you have been saying we are the most efficient, the best in the

area. How long can you carry on doing that? I would not put it like

that. We have managed to keep council tax down in real terms for

11 years. We will be doing that into the future and continue to find new

and different ways of doing things. Being more commercial, occupying

small offices, using volunteers for discretionary activities, and doing

what the public wants, not necessarily what statutory duty is.

That is summed up by the idea of the trees. You can have it safe under

the statute, but not pretty. I read except in a second`class service in

order to meet the things which have to be done? We should not need to

have a second`class service. We should be more innovative and share

more with other local authorities. Eastleigh and Southampton have been

doing that for some time. Southampton and feed doing that

legal services. There are ways of doing things more efficiently while

providing a service to the public. It is about the public. They are

employers. We will stand before them and ask them for our jobs again in

May. We need to protect them. Sharing services with other

authorities could mean and does mean and has meant in the past that

council tax levels have been kept warm. OK. `` kept lower.

According to the charity Shelter, we need to be building a quarter of a

million new homes every year for the foreseeable future. But where to put

them in a region where the existing infrastructure in our towns and

cities is already creaking? Maybe building a whole new town is the

answer. And as our Berkshire political reporter Patrick O'Hagan

reports, it's an answer we found a while back.

My, this is a grand way to start the day. New terms are not that new and

idea. They sprang up after the war and were sold by the Government as a

better way of life out in the countryside, away from all the crime

and overcrowding of big cities like London. There are now 22 of them

around the country, including places like Basingstoke and Bracknell. To

begin with, the Prime Minister sounded like he was all in favour of

building more. It seems to me that our post`war predecessors had the

right idea. Embodied in the visionary plan from Patrick

Abercrombie in 1944. His plan and append the Southeast economic

success by proposing well`planned and well located new terms which

would in time become new engines of economic growth. But his enthusiasm

seems to have waned over the last 18 months and now it is the Deputy

Prime Minister Nick Clegg who is suggesting new towns or garden

cities in Buckinghamshire or Oxfordshire.

Joining me now is Tony Virgo, who is a councillor on Bracknell Forest

Council. He things it is not a bad idea, the new town. Why? I do. I

have been on a planning committee for a long time and I think many

off. We need to increase it. I know from experience the pressure on some

communities on some of the extra development we have to put in. It is

enormous in terms of roads and infrastructure and skills. I think

as well as doing that and releasing that pressure, we could have a look

at two new settlements or maybe three small settlements. So in

Berkshire, whereabouts? I think we should be very open`minded about

this. The most important thing is infrastructure. We have to look at

transport and the next generation and will the jobs are. The ball

travel to the. That infrastructure is... Not too far away from the M4?

That is really busy and it will be full unless we build extra lanes.

There are other suggestions and drips. `` and drips. I have to look

for the field, like Worcestershire. We need a consensus to make this...

We must bring the Mac `` we must not look at this as a negativity. There

is a positive spin in some places in terms of design. But even some

locals are not happy and never have been. You will eat always get people

saying, why here? Someone has to be overruled. Of course. Someone has to

make a decision. We are a country that is fearful change something.

Sometimes we do that change, the accepted. That has to be done in a

managed way. It is important to state that if we did do new towns,

we are talking about sustainable drainage and energy, something we

should be proud of in this country and not having to join it with

existing stuff which basically needs renewing as well. Thanks joining us.

Now our regular round`up of the political week in the South in 60

seconds. The traditional image of a military

wife puts off potential employers, according to a Wiltshire support

group who are highlighting the strengths of military partners.

Hospital A doctors, however, are in such demand that the wage bill

has leapt. Temporary extra staff in Portsmouth costing half a million

pounds, ten times that of previous years.

Floods and storms have brought big repair bills for county councils. In

Dorset, more than 1000 pothles have been reported since January the 1st.

Residents of this town in Sussex are worried they will be swamped with

new houses because they are one of the few places in the county that

has not flooded this year. A new housing project was the

destination for Local Government Secretary Eric Pickles in

Portsmouth. And he backed local MP Penny Mordaunt taking part in the TV

programme Splash! She is a woman of considerable talent and I don't know

about you... Besides, I would obviously make a very big splash

myself! I do not think I would have the courage to jump off one of those

boards. Good idea, but I here? I do not

know. I had to abseil down a building once, and Elisa kit all my

clothes on. That is as much as I would do. Did you get sponsored to

keep your clothes on? I do not think I have been sponsored to take my

clothes 40 Vermont. `` or keep my clothes on. She's giving a fee to

charity. It is in her spare time, as I understand, so good on her effort

is for charity. It would be interesting for Eric Pickles to do

the same thing. In her spare time, but you're the candidate next

summer. An MP is closely scrutinised. You cannot say you want

to do this in your spare time. It will will say you should do your

job. They will, but it is a good cause. Everyone knows we do have

spare time, however little that is. But if it is in her spare time, it

is a good cause, she's not doing any harm. Good luck to her. What is the

most ridiculous thing you might do in such a situation? You would not

get me in the jungle. Heating and set. Sorry, not up for that. People

pay for MPs to be at Westminster. You're expected to do your job and

for all the expenses and the rest of it. She must have put in time

training. MPs get a really hard time. For those of us are not MPs

and close to the system, across the political spectrum, they put in

ridiculous numbers of hours. Getting any spare time at all isn't

triumph. If Penny is doing this, I will not knock for that. She says it

is from our Navy training as well, and learning to dive would be

useful. What could you do , the abseil we have mentioned? Would you

be up for that? I have done sponsored walks and clients and

things for charities in the past, but that was when I was not as busy.

Climbing a mountain takes a week or so. You can do that as an MP. Both

of you, thank you very much. That's the Sunday Politics in the

South, thanks to my guests Keith House and Royston Smith. As we

said, the candidate for Southampton Itchen. You can keep up`to`date

houses being built by the mayor. Andrew, back to you. Welcome back.

Now she made quite a splash last night. I am talking, of course, of

the Portsmouth North MP, Penny Mordaunt. If you missed her first

appearance in ITV's celebrity diving competition show, here she is in

action. APPLAUSE

Here is a lady who is more used to campaigning for votes than diving

for them. She created far too much rotation. Hard work has gone into

the start of this dive to try and control it. That looked painful Now

the Portsmouth North MP got voted off the show last night but what

about the verdict that really matters? The newly appointed

Minister for Portsmouth, Michael Fallon, is here. Welcome to the

programme. I would give her ten out of ten for bravery. I was cheering

her on. She was doing this for a local charity, raising money for the

local swimming pool. She was a good sport. As Minister for Portsmouth,

can we expect to see you in your swimming trunks for the next

series? I do not think I have the spare time at the moment. But there

is a big challenge in Portsmouth. Penny Mordaunt and the other local

MPs there have been remorseless in asking ministers to help the city.

They are losing jobs. There is a goblin Trinity -- there is a big

opportunity to create jobs. Should she have been on a celebrity

television show of their role these problems in Portsmouth? This was in

her spare time and it is raising money for a good cause. I do not

think we should eat two sniffy about it. Did I not see you dressed up on

Thursday night, doing your programme? This is my job. This is

not her job. It was in her spare time, she was raising money for a

local charity. Your Minister for Portsmouth. Are we going to have a

minister for every town? Are we going to have a minister for

Chipping Sodbury? Chipping Sodbury does not have the issues that

Portsmouth have -- that Portsmouth has. There are jobs at risk in

shipbuilding. The government puts in a lot of money through the regional

growth fund, some ?20 million. There are range of government funding

streams going into Portsmouth. My job is to make sure that is properly

coordinated. I need to make sure that Portsmouth seizes this

opportunity to develop a more broadly -based marine and maritime

economy. To make sure a marginal seat stays Tory at the next

election? There are marginal seats everywhere. There is a Liberal

Democrat marginal the -- seat. Vince Cable and I have been working

together for the issues that Portsmouth is facing. We work on

these things together. But I have the very specific job of making sure

that the effort on the ground is coordinated. So Vince Cable is not

the Minister for Portsmouth? I have been there recently, so has Vince

Cable. So there are two ministers for Portsmouth? Just a minute. I am

making sure that the effort is properly coordinated on the ground.

I am determined to turn this challenging time into a proper

opportunity. Should we be to Paul faced about this? No, good honour.

How much money would be have to pay you to get into a swimming costume?

Bid is not enough money in the BBC covers. Good on her. It took seven

years to get a leg there's an MP. She should be a minister. It is a

pity she has the spare time to do this. She is very talented. It is

interesting about the Minister for Portsmouth, up in the north-east

they must be sad that they do not have any marginal seats. Nick Brown

as David Cameron last July, can we have a minister for the north-east,

and the Prime Minister is said no? Does this mean that Portsmouth is

more deprived economic late than the north-east? No, it means it is a

marginal seat. The Labour Leader Ed Miliband was on

the Andrew Marr programme this morning and he outlined plans under

a Labour government for an annual competition audit. Here is what he

had to say. The next Labour government will have an annual

competition at it, not just done by the regulatory body. Alongside them

will be the citizens advice bureau, setting the agenda for the future,

setting the agenda for how we can ensure that competition will benefit

consumers and businesses. I want to see Labour going into the next

election as the party of competition, the party of the

consumer, the party of hard-pressed working families who are struggling.

They need somebody to deal with those issues and that is what the

next Labour government will do. I thought you were meant to be the

party of competition? We are the party of competition. This is the

party that has given us some of these problems. We have an annual

competition review in the energy sector. We have already tackling

banking. What is interesting about his proposal is it is the smaller

ones who are less sure about this, the smaller banks who think that

this could inhibit the growth. It is the smaller energy companies who

think that through interfering with the market, through his price

freeze, that he will hinder competition. We spoke about this

before. It is a clever pitch that Ed Miliband is making. Under the guise

of token markets and claiming to be the party of competition, he is

creating the reason for state intervention? -- broken markets

Exactly, and it is state intervention that does not work

There is a proud tradition in government of smashing open cartels.

Teddy Roosevelt did it nearly a century ago. The problem is, in

those situations it was clear and obvious that the consumers were

suffering. I am not sure it is entirely obvious in this country. In

the banking sector we have free current accounts in the high street.

That is not true in all Western countries. In the energy sector our

bills are not outlandish they high. It is when we take taxes into

account the become unaffordable He has to make the case that consumers

are suffering as a result of these monopolies. Ed Miliband would say it

is not about state intervention but about making markets work. The piece

that was written by his intellectual Duryea about the significance and

the importance of Teddy Roosevelt. He was the Republican president in

the yearly -- in the early years of the last century. He wanted markets

to work. There is an interesting debate on Twitter this morning. Tim

Montgomerie is saying, why are we, the Conservative Party, not seen as

the party of Teddy Roosevelt? We are seen as the party of business.

There are smaller energy companies competing against the big six. In

banking, we have seen smaller companies coming. It was the Labour

government that created the big six energy companies. I think Teddy

Roosevelt also invaded Cuba and the Philippines. That could give us a

clue as to Ed Miliband's foreign policy. Nigel Farage has promised to

purge the party of its more extreme candidates ahead of the European

Council elections in May. But that may not be going so well. Listen to

this. The latest in this process is these homosexual laws. And Thomas I

shall manage. I believe that the Prime Minister, who was warned that

disasters would follow a three went in this direction, he has persisted,

and I believe that this is largely a repercussion from this godlessness

that he has persisted in. The instructions I have got from now on,

or is just not to answer in, and not to give interviews such as this one.

So you are ignoring them? I am not ignoring them. But you are talking

to me? You are the last one I shall be speaking to. I think it is too

late. Who would have thought it It is not global warming that is

causing the floods, it is gay marriage? That explains it. Last

year David Cameron offered a coded retraction of his statement that

UKIP is full of fruit cakes. I think he will be tempted to retract the

retraction. It is a warning to lots of Tories who think that their best

interests are served by flirting with lace -- with UKIP. Nigel Farage

is a very plausible guy, but several layers down, there are people who

are very different. Nigel Farage is saying that he's going to clear the

party out of what Mr Cameron called the fruitcakes. If he is true to his

word, Mr Sylvester's days in the party should they numbered. If Nigel

Farage falls under the bus, what is left of place -- what is left of

UKIP? People say that they like UKIP because unlike other politicians,

they speak their mind. But as it turns into more of a proper

organisation, people speaking their mind will be less acceptable. The

European elections are always a protest vote. People are not happy

with the elite. You will get people saying utterly ridiculous things

like that man in Henley-on-Thames. But this is a chance to vote against

the entire political establishment. I am not sure that comments like

that will make much of a difference. There are lots of arguments about

climate change. That was certainly a new one! They are the only big

protest party at the moment. Protest party is obviously hoovered up lots

of votes. We have got to be clear in European message that we are the

only party that can reform Europe and give people a proper choice the

first referendum in over 40 years. Mr Sylvester used to be a

conservative. You're probably glad to see the back of him? David

Cameron is right, there are probably a few fruitcakes around there. I

think that mainstream conservatives will understand that this is the

only party that can secure European reform and give people the choice

they have been arguing for. Whatever happens in the European elections,

it is a protest vote. We have almost run out of time. We will see this

week of Chris Rennard gets the party whip act. There is a battle brewing

between Danny Alexander and the common side of the Liberal Democrats

and the House of Lords. If he turns up on Monday and asks to be let in,

I they going to make a big scene at the gate of Parliament? And the

issue will stay in the papers? Yes, they are clearly nervous that Lord

Rennard might be tempted to mount a legal bid. That is all for today.

Thanks to all my guests. The Daily Politics is back on Monday at midday

on BBC Two. And I will be here again next week. Remember if it is Sunday,

it is the Sunday Politics.