Browse content similar to 12/01/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the | :00:37. | :00:46. | |
coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance | :00:47. | :00:50. | |
the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
European Court of Human Rights. He joins me. | :01:04. | :01:08. | |
Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how | :01:09. | :01:09. | |
will they get a In the South: Are we spending enough | :01:10. | :01:19. | |
on flood defences to stop a repetition of scenes like these, and | :01:20. | :01:21. | |
will council`tax payers be serious. Have cuts left to the | :01:22. | :01:22. | |
service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio | :01:23. | :01:38. | |
of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick | :01:43. | :01:50. | |
Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories, | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will | :02:05. | :02:06. | |
not make any additional contributions from their taxes if | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy | :02:15. | :02:22. | |
people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two | :02:52. | :02:58. | |
years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the | :03:08. | :03:13. | |
polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There | :03:23. | :03:27. | |
was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party, | :03:52. | :03:54. | |
but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I | :04:04. | :04:08. | |
cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about | :04:09. | :04:16. | |
principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the | :04:59. | :05:03. | |
Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who | :05:37. | :05:41. | |
are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing, | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift, | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters, | :06:21. | :06:27. | |
soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
with the Conservatives, you have a problem. | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers | :06:53. | :06:53. | |
taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are | :06:54. | :07:11. | |
protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are | :07:12. | :07:20. | |
tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government, | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's | :07:46. | :07:49. | |
financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a | :07:54. | :08:00. | |
change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer | :08:01. | :08:06. | |
without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically, | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a | :08:37. | :08:40. | |
job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ | :09:42. | :09:47. | |
offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him. | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him, | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights, | :10:43. | :10:44. | |
and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on | :10:57. | :10:59. | |
what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological | :11:05. | :11:13. | |
driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection? | :11:24. | :11:35. | |
Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If | :11:36. | :11:43. | |
you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human | :11:49. | :11:51. | |
rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is | :12:29. | :12:37. | |
clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency - | :12:45. | :12:52. | |
recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will | :12:53. | :12:54. | |
publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform, | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our | :13:36. | :13:42. | |
decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not, | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that | :13:51. | :13:53. | |
deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point, | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But | :14:10. | :14:15. | |
how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The | :14:23. | :14:29. | |
decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney | :14:35. | :14:35. | |
General says. I would be asking Strasberg a | :14:36. | :15:01. | |
different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale | :15:12. | :15:16. | |
reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country. | :15:20. | :15:27. | |
Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95 | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you | :16:01. | :16:06. | |
couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced | :16:12. | :16:23. | |
my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European | :16:46. | :16:51. | |
Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the | :16:52. | :17:00. | |
right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made | :17:25. | :17:30. | |
a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not | :17:52. | :17:59. | |
acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will | :18:16. | :18:23. | |
be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but | :18:35. | :18:37. | |
the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison | :18:38. | :18:45. | |
of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few | :19:13. | :19:18. | |
years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again. | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer. | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0 | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every | :19:57. | :20:07. | |
private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across | :20:43. | :20:46. | |
government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures, | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation. | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept | :21:40. | :21:50. | |
their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I | :21:56. | :21:58. | |
and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of | :21:59. | :22:10. | |
VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments | :22:17. | :22:23. | |
include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have | :22:40. | :22:51. | |
said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay, | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people | :23:11. | :23:16. | |
for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to | :23:17. | :23:28. | |
be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you | :23:34. | :23:39. | |
put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change. | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more | :23:50. | :23:52. | |
appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again | :24:03. | :24:09. | |
and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail | :24:15. | :24:23. | |
despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another | :24:51. | :24:57. | |
34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail? | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail | :25:09. | :25:14. | |
sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare | :25:38. | :25:44. | |
cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these | :25:50. | :25:58. | |
cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today, | :26:04. | :26:11. | |
after people have left school or college, the live for a time with | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by | :26:31. | :26:32. | |
definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a | :26:33. | :26:41. | |
case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the | :26:42. | :26:46. | |
cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last | :26:52. | :26:59. | |
government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to | :27:06. | :27:08. | |
distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them? | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for | :27:35. | :27:36. | |
Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general | :27:41. | :27:42. | |
election. Although 16% more house-builds were | :27:43. | :27:44. | |
started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for | :27:49. | :27:55. | |
National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should | :27:56. | :27:58. | |
expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would | :28:06. | :28:12. | |
massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east | :28:57. | :29:11. | |
of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister | :29:12. | :29:13. | |
Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry, | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new | :29:35. | :29:42. | |
homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes, | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are | :30:55. | :31:03. | |
going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is | :31:09. | :31:16. | |
enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will | :31:57. | :32:02. | |
they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases, | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the | :32:16. | :32:22. | |
compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you | :32:35. | :32:40. | |
compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
one report that has come back in recent years that shows that | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and | :33:31. | :33:33. | |
sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
there is another problem before that. That is around transparency | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
about land options. There is agricultural land that | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is. | :33:47. | :33:53. | |
Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the | :33:54. | :33:59. | |
south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most | :34:00. | :34:04. | |
reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national | :34:47. | :34:53. | |
interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot | :34:54. | :35:00. | |
mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
built, and in areas like Oxford, Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served, | :35:15. | :35:36. | |
will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government, | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you | :36:39. | :36:43. | |
the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got | :36:57. | :37:05. | |
there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
ahead with our political panel and Jacob | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My name's Peter Henley. On today's show | :37:28. | :37:32. | |
it's been water, water everywhere this week. But why do so many places | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
keep on flooding? Is the Environment Agency getting the funds it needs | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
for flood prevention, and are councils being properly compensated | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
for clearing up the aftermath? More on that in a moment. First, let's | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
meet our two guests of the day. Rowenna Davis is Labour's 2015 | :37:49. | :37:50. | |
parliamentary candidate for Southampton Itchen. Chris Chope is | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
the Conservative MP for Christchurch. You were campaigning | :37:55. | :38:05. | |
on rail fares this week, Rowenna Davis, saying it costs ?5,000 a | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
season ticket, do you say the increase is unreasonable? The price | :38:14. | :38:19. | |
is already too high for people in Southampton and the South East. | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
?5,200 to go to London for an annual ticket. What it means to many people | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
we spoke to is they cannot afford to continue working in the capital or | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
not looking for jobs there in the first place, which is bad for the | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
economy because people cannot take the work that is there and it is bad | :38:39. | :38:42. | |
for individual suffering already with the high cost of living. The | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
coalition have realised this is a problem because they capped | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
increases? They capped some of them so they would not go up as much as | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
otherwise would have been. It is holding the economy back, huge fare | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
rises? Who else will pay? We need to invest in the railway. People look | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
at the improvements between Southampton and London, they are | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
amazing, compared to when I went to Parkway station. It is an enormous | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
station with massive investment and likewise the rolling stock. The | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
question is, who will pay for it? The people he use the railways were | :39:23. | :39:31. | |
smacked the people who are not? 1990, when Chris Chope was transport | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
Minister, John Prescott grumbled in the House of Commons that the cost | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
of a standard return ticket from London to Brighton had gone from 565 | :39:40. | :39:48. | |
up to ?16 20 in 1990, compared to the first in 1978. ?16 20 in 1990. | :39:49. | :39:58. | |
It must be about ?30 now. But, for 20p more, you can get the off`peak | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
return which is ?16 40. Flexible fares? If we talk about the problem | :40:05. | :40:09. | |
of people not being able to work, those off`peak tickets are not | :40:10. | :40:14. | |
available to those working. We were told that privatisation would bring | :40:15. | :40:19. | |
prices down and they never have. And we still have companies making | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
millions and expecting to make more profits this year if you look at the | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
South West trains report. That is unacceptable when people are | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
suffering and the economy is suffering. Why should commuters pay | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
for this only? We all want good railways. Likewise, why should we | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
pay for the roads? Why should it just be rail users who are | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
privileged. You may be forgiven this week to feel it has been chucking it | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
down for 40 days and 40 nights already. It has seemed like an | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
endless cycle of high winds, high tides and rising floodwaters. And as | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
our Oxford political reporter Helen Catt now reports, there's hardly a | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
place in our region that has escaped a soaking. | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
It started with high winds and waves battering our stretch of the coast. | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
In Dorset, this home Park was evacuated for the second time in a | :41:20. | :41:24. | |
fortnight and the residents' plight was mentioned in the House of | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
Commons by a Bournemouth MP. Given the changing weather patterns, what | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
more could be done in the long term towards improved river and sea | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
defences? As my honourable friend knows in Bournemouth and Dorset we | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
had 290 homes flooded. I agree with him that the worst `` the work of | :41:45. | :41:51. | |
the emergency services and Environment Agency has been | :41:52. | :41:54. | |
excellent. Local authorities have had good plans and put them into | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
place competently, but not every local authority does as well and | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
lessons will be learned. In Christchurch, it was a similar | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
story. The properties may become impossible to live in. People might | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
be thrown out of their homes. Many of the residents are elderly. It | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
might fall to the local council to house these people, maybe at | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
considerable cost. Inland, the rain kept falling and the water kept | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
rising, and even getting to the shops was a major effort. The | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
majority of houses on this stretch of the River Thames are adapted to | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
cope with something like these conditions, they are raised on | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
stilts. For those that are not, this is a disaster. Just getting in and | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
out. The currents are pulling along the road and getting dangerous you | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
feel that you will get swept over. In Purley near Reading there was | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
anger as residents used paddle power to get around. Promised work on | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
flood defences which they say could have saved houses has not been done. | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
It is precarious, but it seems to be levelling out. We have been worried. | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
How about getting to school? This is the first day trying to get them | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
out. We did not have the boat before. As the week closed, concern | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
was on the River Thames South of Oxford, where two people died. Seven | :43:22. | :43:29. | |
days of alerts, warnings and severe warnings have left councils, the | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
Environment Agency and home owners contemplating the cost of that | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
water. Joining me now is a member of the | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
Loddon Valley Residents' Association. Long Valley is working. | :43:41. | :43:50. | |
How has it been? It has been terrible, but we were fortunate `` | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
Lord and Valley. It is not as bad as 2007, but it has been hairy for | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
people over the Christmas period with people woken up at 5:30am, with | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
a warning saying water was coming there day and spending Christmas Day | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
worrying about whether the house would remain dry. The report from | :44:14. | :44:21. | |
2007 when we had a lot of flooding, it said warnings were important, | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
have they been better? In principle, warnings are fantastic because it | :44:28. | :44:29. | |
allows people to protect their property. Not once the warnings have | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
happened and the floodwaters have abated, you have people who have | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
their lives decimated, trying to put it back together. So having the | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
upfront stuff is fantastic, it is what happens afterwards that is the | :44:48. | :44:53. | |
problem, having things in place which might prevent flooding in | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
future, maintenance, those things. We heard about people getting | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
together to get diggers to clear culverts. Is it self`help that is | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
important in this situation, with help from the experts, or are there | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
people who cannot do things? It is a mix. We have a group in Swallowfield | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
who are fantastic in doing self`help. It is not always the | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
case, and not always safe to do that. Often, it is expertise. | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
Self`help might be putting up a barrier, but where does the water go | :45:29. | :45:35. | |
if you do? You could cause problems downstream. And it is so | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
unpredictable. The experts look at it and you do not know if your | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
individual house you may have bought recently is liable or not, do you | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
think we need more information? Or do you just accept the rain will | :45:51. | :45:55. | |
fall where it falls? We need to have the flood assets, more preparation, | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
ditches, culverts, they have to be cleared. You have to make sure the | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
river is maintained. You do not want points along the river occurring and | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
spilling out the water. The key is preparation. What is your feeling | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
about Environment Agency cuts? The cuts are worrying. I have had phone | :46:18. | :46:24. | |
calls and conversations with residents who are worried. Going | :46:25. | :46:27. | |
back to the river and the idea it has to be maintained to make sure it | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
does not choke up and cause flooding, will the cuts impact | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
that? Think of cuts with local authorities, who have to maintain | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
flood assets, the being prepared type of thing which we are worrying | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
about going. If you think further afield, you have hard engineering. | :46:45. | :46:53. | |
Morpeth. The big capital investments. You will maintain that | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
after the Environment Agency cuts? Thanks very much. Although heavy | :46:58. | :47:06. | |
floods seem to be almost an annual event now, they are hardly something | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
that anyone can budget for. So who exactly pays for the clear up? | :47:10. | :47:12. | |
Here's Helen again. Local authorities often pick up the | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
bill for dealing with this kind of unexpected event. There is a | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
government programme to provide compensation that says that once a | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
local authority has spent 0.2% of its annual budget on eligible | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
mopping up arrangements, it will be reimbursed from central government. | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
The government even has a table for how much authorities have dispensed | :47:36. | :47:41. | |
before they trigger the grant, so in Bournemouth, if the council spends | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
just over 400,000, it can claim of the extra and in West Berkshire it | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
is the same. In Wiltshire, with the flooding around Salisbury, it is | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
just over 1 million. Oxfordshire County Council, it is almost 1.5 | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
million. It is not all good news, the government only hands over 85% | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
of what they say is eligible, so councils might have to dip into | :48:06. | :48:14. | |
reserves kept for a rainy day. And thanks to all South Today | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
viewers who provided those amazing photos. Joining us from our Oxford | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
studio is Rodney Rose, who's the deputy leader of Oxfordshire County | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
Council. Facing quite a clear`up bill from the looks of it. Are you | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
going to have to pay for it out of that rainy`day money you have saved? | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
We certainly are, the formula is totally unfair to big county council | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
's like us. It will not give you enough money? It will not give us | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
any money, it did not in 2007, anyway. We have to get above the 1.5 | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
million which is extra spend on the emergency before we can claim. Do | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
you feel it is a lottery because of the size of the authority, when | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
others get help? The bigger problem is it is based on the revenue budget | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
of the local authority. We have so many extra miles of river and road, | :49:02. | :49:08. | |
but also we have bills such as 34 million for school transport, adult | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
services and the children's budget, which create a cut`off point for | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
this scheme. So you feel it is unfair in that some get help and you | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
will not, but what would be a better way of doing it? I think it's | :49:22. | :49:31. | |
somehow relates back to the number of people employed in the highways | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
and local fire service, which in Oxfordshire is county council run, | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
it should not relate to other budgets we are involved in. And | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
places, such as Oxfordshire, which is more susceptible with the Thames | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
Valley, to having these problems where other authorities might not | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
have these issues? We have a longer length of the River Thames. We have | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
3000 miles of roads which have problems with flooding and that adds | :49:59. | :50:04. | |
to the cost. Coastal communities, Christchurch, Chris Chope, facing | :50:05. | :50:07. | |
more problems with the high tides this time. Do you think there should | :50:08. | :50:14. | |
be a better way of ensuring central government supports individual | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
authorities? Nobody has found a better way than the formula. Which | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
Rodney Rose says does not work. It might not work for him because he | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
does not benefit, but it is an insurance policy with the government | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
saying the national taxpayer will intervene if your losses are more | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
than a particular percentage of the budget. If I have an insurance | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
policy, I know what I will get for the premium. It is not quite the | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
same, but there is no certainty. He knows that his outgoings will not be | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
sufficient to qualify for the formula money, which shows that the | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
costs in Oxfordshire as a percentage of the budget will be below the | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
threshold. That seems, to me, a perfectly reasonable way of having a | :51:06. | :51:12. | |
policy sharing expense sharing between national taxpayers and local | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
taxpayers. That is what the formula was designed to achieve. Do you | :51:16. | :51:24. | |
think it is working? Know, and it does not deal with preventative work | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
the local authorities have to do `` no. It is about clearing up the mess | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
and national government has an incentive to get involved if a local | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
region is effective because press attention is there and they need to | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
be seen to be doing something. But more dangerously, they are removing | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
the preventative work and we know about the cuts to the Environment | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
Agency and job cuts, and that is doing damage to particular areas. If | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
I take Southhampton, it would be fantastic if we could develop the | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
west side of the river itching, which is honourable to flooding, but | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
we cannot do it because the money for flood defences has not been put | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
in place and as a result the investment and insurance costs are | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
too high for businesses and local people lose out on jobs and homes. | :52:13. | :52:17. | |
Are there things you would like to do in Oxfordshire that you do not | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
get money for? More important is stopping gridlock in the city, when | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
roots in our blocked due to flooding, which leaves me trying to | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
find 120 million, one scheme in mind, and I do not know with deficit | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
reduction where the money is coming from. For the tax payer, it makes | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
economic sense to put this investment in, because there are not | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
the costs of the community has to bear? Yes I would not like to think | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
of the economic cost to Oxford city in the past days. That is something | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
we have to face and we have to raise that money, and at the moment, and I | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
certainly support deficit reduction, but we have to keep those aspects of | :53:04. | :53:13. | |
public spending going. And you can see more on how the floods have hit | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
the South in tomorrow night's Inside Out on BBC One at 7:30pm, including | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
Jon Cuthill making milk deliveries in a kayak to cut off households. | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
The Prime Minister began the New Year with a trip to the South Coast. | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
He came to promote the Help To Buy scheme, but his visit included a | :53:29. | :53:31. | |
photocall that some felt had rather backfired. | :53:32. | :53:33. | |
Sharon was the 30`year`old single mother chosen for David Cameron to | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
visit. Just before Christmas she exchanged contracts on a ?135,000 | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
two`bedroom flat in Southhampton. We are not helping people to buy homes | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
they cannot afford, we help people who do not have wealthy parents that | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
cannot get a big deposit together, and we are helping them to realise | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
their dreams, which is good for them and the economy. I would not have | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
been able to afford childcare and to save at the same time, so it has | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
helps me to get onto the ladder. Sharon's two`year`old was on hand as | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
David Cameron had a tour, standard publicity stuff, even the pose with | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
a cup of tea. But press coverage and online comments made huge play of | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
personal details picked up from Sharon's Twitter account, that she | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
had bought a BMW convertible and was sales director of the estate agency | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
that sold the flat. It became a witchhunt. People were | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
saying this is an estate agent, why does she deserve... She has a flash | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
car, why do she have help from the scheme? I do not want to continue | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
the victimisation of her and it really was, I think she has recently | :54:52. | :54:55. | |
divorced and has gone through a lot and seems to work hard, and she was | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
not deserving of that criticism because she was picking up on the | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
policy available to her, she was not breaking rules. There might be a | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
deeper question about the nature of the policy and who it is open to, | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
but that is the government's responsibility. Do you think she | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
should get help with her mortgage? I am saying nobody should blame her | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
for applying for a benefit open to her. She did not break any rules. | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
What I have concerns about is the policy itself, and why it is open to | :55:32. | :55:36. | |
those people. We know it is open to buying houses up to ?600,000 in | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
value, a huge amount. In Southhampton we have a waiting list | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
of 14,004 council homes and it will never be open to those people to | :55:47. | :55:55. | |
apply this scheme. It does nothing to solve the problem of a shortage | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
of houses. If you want to tackle this, look at supply. Why does | :55:59. | :56:05. | |
taxpayers' money goes to help people with decent incomes, rather than | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
those suffering without appropriate housing? I would like to see a | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
system that gets the housing market moving, which means reducing the tax | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
on transactions. That is why I think it is better to invest in reducing | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
stamp duty on all house purchases and sales in the lower range. Less | :56:28. | :56:35. | |
than 600,000, presumably? That would help everybody and get the market | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
moving. The trouble with this policy is that it picks a few winners and a | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
lot of other people do not benefit. I have argued that levels of stamp | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
duty are too high on relatively modest house purchase transactions | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
and reducing that would be a better thing. Do you agree we need to get | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
the market moving, not just those at the bottom, but to get confidence? | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
This policy artificially inflate house prices and gives us another | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
bubble when prices rose by 11% in Southhampton already, and it does | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
not deal with supply. People build more houses. Prices are rising | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
massively already. It only helps a small proportion of people. Do you | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
think we will have a housing bubble? I hope we do not. There is a | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
danger but I think the Chancellor is watching that. Now our regular | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
round`up of the political week in the South in 60 seconds. | :57:37. | :57:52. | |
Diving in the deep end. Portsmouth MP's political opponents thought she | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
was in hot water after signing up for a reality TV programme splash. | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
She said she gave the ?10,000 fee to charity. I work hard for Portsmouth, | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
like me or loathe me. Too much water was the excuse of Gatwick for | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
cancelling flights on Christmas Eve, telling MPs that flooding led | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
to power cuts and police were called to call order. The chief constable | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
of the Thames Valley said they were not fiddling crime figures. We need | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
the public to trust the police to tell the truth. Criminal lawyers in | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
Oxford protested about plans to cut legal aid, with fees potentially | :58:32. | :58:38. | |
being cut by 30%. The unions at Bournemouth University are insulted | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
by a 19% increase in the Vice Chancellor's salary when staff who | :58:44. | :58:50. | |
are teachers were offered a 1% rise. A variation on who is getting an | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
increase in salary and most people are not. Lawyers getting less money, | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
the legal aid budget, does that concern you? It is a serious | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
concern. There are so many people who do not have access to justice | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
because they feel they cannot afford it. The system must be based on the | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
righteousness of your case and not power and I am worried that is no | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
longer going to be happening. But when money is tight, surely saving | :59:20. | :59:23. | |
money given to lawyers has to be a good thing? You have to make a | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
distinction between legal aid lawyers who work for little money | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
and lawyers who work in other sectors. To cut those who are giving | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
up time for legal aid cases is criminal. You are a barrister. Have | :59:37. | :59:44. | |
people always complained about the money available on legal aid? A cut | :59:45. | :59:52. | |
of 30% seems huge. There is an issue about the quality of the advocacy. | :59:53. | :59:59. | |
We have two encourage good quality advocates to litigate on behalf of | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
the people. If we cut it too much, we might end up with inferior | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
quality advocates which will have a knock`on effect in taking longer in | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
court and be counter`productive, so I am sympathetic with the case. It | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
is fantastic, he disagrees with the Conservative party on so much! | :00:19. | :00:19. | |
That's the Sunday will not be revoked. And I wouldn't | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew. | :00:26. | :00:35. | |
Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the | :00:41. | :00:49. | |
tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead. | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset. | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed | :01:01. | :01:06. | |
this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with | :01:11. | :01:18. | |
a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what | :01:19. | :01:28. | |
Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to | :01:33. | :01:34. | |
do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force | :01:35. | :01:41. | |
-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
without having the support of the public of the member states. This is | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
organisation that does some coordination and that has trade | :02:10. | :02:12. | |
agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state. | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to | :02:28. | :02:35. | |
come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world. | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent. | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But | :03:19. | :03:27. | |
there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming | :03:43. | :03:50. | |
here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock! | :04:06. | :04:15. | |
Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market, | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes | :05:16. | :05:27. | |
mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as | :05:37. | :05:45. | |
an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work, | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in | :07:15. | :07:22. | |
coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not, | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way, | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject. | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way. | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are | :08:15. | :08:21. | |
all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick | :08:40. | :08:49. | |
question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper | :08:52. | :08:56. | |
meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles. | :09:08. | :09:12. | |
I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ | :09:13. | :09:22. | |
's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime | :09:29. | :09:31. | |
ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
now. What is clear is that he is | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency, | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband | :10:11. | :10:18. | |
trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers | :10:24. | :10:25. | |
questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions. | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of | :11:11. | :11:17. | |
Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch | :11:38. | :11:43. | |
and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust, | :11:52. | :11:59. | |
the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising | :12:11. | :12:11. | |
industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info | :12:48. | :12:50. | |
structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I | :13:22. | :13:27. | |
aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics. | :13:33. | :13:38. |