12/01/2014 Sunday Politics South


12/01/2014

Andrew Neil and Peter Henley with the latest political news, interviews and debate.


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Good morning, welcome. 2014 is barely under way, and the

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coalition is fighting over cuts. Nick Legg says Tory plans to balance

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the books would hit the poorest hardest. He will not say what he

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will cut. That is the top story. Chris Grayling called for a

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completely new deal with Europe as he battles will rings from the

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European Court of Human Rights. He joins me.

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Labour promises to shift house-building up a gear, but how

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will they get a In the South: Are we spending enough

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on flood defences to stop a repetition of scenes like these, and

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will council`tax payers be serious. Have cuts left to the

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service being overstretched? With me for the duration, a top trio

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of political pundits, Helen Lewis, Jan and Ganesh and Nick Watt. They

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will be tweeting faster than France or long scoots through Paris. Nick

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Clegg sticks to his New Year resolution to sock it to the Tories,

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the is how he described Tory plans for another 12 billion of cuts on

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welfare after the next election You cannot say, as the Conservatives

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are, that we are all in it together and then say that the welfare will

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not make any additional contributions from their taxes if

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there is a Conservative government after 2015 in the ongoing effort to

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balance the books. We are not even going to ask that very wealthy

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people who have retired who have benefits, paid for by the

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hard-pressed taxpayers, will make a sacrifice. The Conservatives appear

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to be saying only the working age pork will be asked to make

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additional sacrifices to fill the remaining buckle in the public

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finances. Nick Legg eating up on the Tories

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a, happens almost every day. I understand it is called aggressive

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differentiation. Will it work for them? It has not for the past two

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years. This began around the time of the AV referendum campaign, that is

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what poisoned the relations between the parties. They have been trying

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to differentiation since then, they are still at barely 10% in the

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polls, Nick Clegg's personal ratings are horrendous, so I doubt they will

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do much before the next election. It is interesting it has been combined

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with aggressive flirtation with Ed Balls and the Labour Party. There

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was always going to be some sort of rapprochement between them and the

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Labour Party, it is in the Labour Party's interests, and it is intent

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macro's interests, not to be defined as somebody who can only do deals

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with the centre-right. A colleague of yours, Helen, told me there was

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more talk behind closed doors in the Labour Party high command, they have

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to think about winning the election in terms of being the largest party,

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but not necessarily an overall majority. There is a feeling it was

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foolish before the last election not to have any thought about what a

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coalition might be, but the language has changed. Ed Miliband had said, I

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cannot deal with this man, but now, I have to be prismatic, it is about

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principles. Even Ed Balls. Nick Clegg had specifically said that Ed

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Balls was the man in politics that he hated. He said that was just a

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joke. Of course, it is about principles, not people! When Ed

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Balls said those nice things about Nick Clegg, he said, I understood

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the need to get a credible deficit reduction programme, although he

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said Nick Clegg went too far. The thing about Nick Clegg, he feels

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liberated, he bears the wounds from the early days of the coalition and

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maybe those winds will haunt him all the way to the general election But

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he feels liberated, he says, we will be the restraining influence on both

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the Conservatives, who cannot insure that the recovery is fair, and the

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Labour Party, that do not have economic red ability. He feels

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relaxed, and that is why he is attacking the Tories and appearing

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pretty relaxed. He could also be falling into a trap. The Tories

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think what they suggesting on welfare cuts is possible. The more

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he attacks it, the more Tories will say, if you gave us an overall

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majority, he is the one it. He keeps taking these ostensibly on popular

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positions and it only makes sense when you talk to them behind the

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scenes, they are going after a tiny slice of the electorate, 20%, who

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are open to the idea of voting Lib Dem, and their views are a bit more

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left liberal than the bulk of the public. There is a perverse logic in

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them aggressively targeting that section of voters. In the end, ten

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macro's problem, if you do not like what this coalition has been doing,

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you will not vote for somebody who was part of it, you will vote for

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the Labour Party. The Tories are too nasty, Labour are to spendthrift,

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Lib Dem, a quarter of their vote has gone to Labour, and that is what

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could hand the largest party to Labour. That small number of voters,

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soft Tory voters, the problem for the Liberal Democrats is, if you

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fight, as they did, three general elections to the left of the Labour

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Party, and at the end of the third, you find yourself in Colour Vision

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with the Conservatives, you have a problem.

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Chris Grayling is a busy man, he has had to deal with aid riot at HM

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Prison Oakwood, barristers on strike and unhappy probation officers

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taking industrial action. Prison works. It ensures that we are

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protected from murderers, muggers and rapists. It makes many who are

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tempted to commit crime think twice. Traditional Tory policy on criminal

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justice and prisons has been tough talking and tough dealing. Not only

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have they tended to think what they are offering is right, but have had

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the feeling, you thinking what they thinking. But nearly two decades

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after Michael Howard's message, his party, in Colour Vision government,

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is finding prison has to work like everything else within today's

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financial realities. The Justice Secretary for two years after the

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election had previous in this field. Ken Clarke. Early on, he signalled a

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change of direction. Just binding up more and more people for longer

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without actively seeking to change them is, in my opinion, what you

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would expect of Victorian England. The key to keeping people out of

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prison now, it seems, is giving them in a job, on release. Ironically,

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Ken Clarke was released from his job 15 months ago and replaced by Chris

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Grayling. But here, within HM Prison Liverpool, Timpson has been working

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since 2009 with chosen offenders to offer training and the chance of a

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job. Before you ask, they do not teach them keep cutting in a

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category B prison. The Academy is deliberately meant to look like a

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company store, not a prison. It helps. You forget where you are at

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times, it feels weird, going back to a wing at the end of the day. It is

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different. A different atmosphere. That is why people like it. Timpson

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have six academies in prisons, training prisoners inside, and

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outside they offer jobs to ex-offenders, who make up 8% of

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their staff. It has been hard work persuading some governors that such

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cooperation can work. I have seen a dramatic change positively, working

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with prisoners, particularly in the last five years. They understand now

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what business's expectation is. Timpson do not just employ

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offenders, but as one ex-prisoner released in February and now

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managing his own store says, the point is many others will not employ

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offenders at all. From what I have experienced, on one hand, you have

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somebody with a criminal conviction, on the other, somebody who does not

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have one, so it is a case of favouring those who have a clean

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record. Anybody with a criminal conviction is passed to one side and

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overlooked. That, amongst myriad other changes to prison and how we

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deal with prisoners, is on the desk of the man at the top. Ever since

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Chris Grayling became Secretary of State for Justice, he has wanted to

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signal a change of direction of policy, and he is in a hurry to make

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radical reforms across the board, from size and types of prisons to

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probation services, reoffending rates, legal aid services, and there

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has been opposition to that from groups who do not agree with him.

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But what might actually shackle him is none of that. It is the fact that

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he is in government with a party that does not always agree with him,

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he has to abide by the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights,

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and in those famous words, there is no money left. We would like to go

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further and faster. I would like him too, but we are where we are. If the

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Liberal Democrats want to be wiped out at the next election based on

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what they believe, that is fair enough. We accept there has to be

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savings, but there are areas where we feel that there is ideological

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driven policy-making going on, and privatising may not save any money

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at all, and so does not make any sense. The question is, we'll all of

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that means some of Chris Grayling's reforms need closer inspection?

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Chris Grayling joins me now. Welcome. We have a lot to cover If

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you get your way, your own personal way, will be next Tory manifesto

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promise to withdraw from the European Convention of human

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rights? It will contain a promise for radical changes. We have to

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curtail the role of the European court here, replace our human rights

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act from the late 1990s, make our Supreme Court our Supreme Court

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they can be no question of decisions over riding it elsewhere, and we

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have to have a situation where our laws contain a balance of rights and

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responsibilities. People talk about knowing their rights, but they do

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not accept they have responsible it is. This is what you said last

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September, I want to see our Supreme Court being supreme again... That is

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clear, but let's be honest, the Supreme Court cannot be supreme as

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long as its decisions can be referred to the European Court in

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Strasbourg. There is clearly an issue, that was raised recency -

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recently. We have been working on a detailed reform plan, we will

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publish that in the not too distant future. What we will set out is a

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direction of travel for a new Conservative government that will

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mean wholesale change in this area. You already tried to reform the

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European Court, who had this declaration in 2012, do you accept

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that the reform is off the table? There is still a process of reform,

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but it is not going fast enough and not delivering the kind of change we

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need. That is why we will bring forward a package that for the

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different from that and will set a different direction of travel. We

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are clear across the coalition, we have a different view from our

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colleagues. You cannot be half pregnant on this, either our

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decisions from our Supreme Court are subject to the European Cup or not,

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in which case, we are not part of the European court. I hope you will

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see from our proposals we have come up with a sensible strategy that

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deals with this issue once and for all. Can we be part of the

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Strasbourg court and yet our Supreme Court be supreme? That is by point,

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we have to curtail the role of the court in the UK. I am clear that is

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what we will seek to do. It is what we will do for this country. But

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how? I am not going to announce the package of policies today, but we

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will go into the next election with a clear strategy that will curtail

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the role of the European Court of Human Rights in the UK. The

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decisions have to be taken in Parliament in this country. Are you

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sure that you have got your own side on this? Look at what the Attorney

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General says. I would be asking Strasberg a

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different question to that. If the best in class, he is saying is

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enough is enough, actually somebody in Strasberg should be asking if

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this has gone the way it should have done. I would love to see wholesale

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reform in the court tomorrow, I m not sure it is going to happen which

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is why we are going to the election with a clear plan for this country.

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Would you want that to be a red line in any coalition agreement? My

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mission is to win the next election with a majority. But you have to say

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where your red lines would be. We have been very clear it is an area

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where we don't agree as parties but in my view the public in this

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country are overwhelmingly behind the Conservative party. 95

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Conservative MPs have written to the Prime Minister, demanding he gives

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the House of Commons the authority to veto any aspect of European Union

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law. Are you one of the people who wanted to sign that letter but you

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couldn't because you are minister? I haven't been asked to sign the

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letter. We need a red card system for European law. I'm not convinced

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my colleagues... I don't think it is realistic to have a situation where

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one parliament can veto laws across the European Union. I understand the

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concerns of my colleagues, but when we set out to renegotiate our

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membership, we have got to deliver renegotiation and deliver a system

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which is viable, and I'm not convinced we can have a situation

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where one Parliament can prevent laws across the whole European

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Union. So you wouldn't have signed this letter? I'm not sure it is the

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right approach. I support the system I just talked about. Iain Duncan

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Smith has suggested EU migrants coming to work in this country

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should have to wait for two years before they qualify for welfare

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benefits, do you agree? Yes, I think there should be an assumption that

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before you can move from one country to another, before you can start to

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take back from that country's social welfare system, you should have made

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a contribution to it. I spent two and a half years working in Brussels

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trying to get the European Commission to accept the need for

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change. There is a groundswell of opinion out there which is behind

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Iain Duncan Smith in what he is saying. I think we should push for a

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clear system that says people should be able to move from one country to

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get a job, but to move to another country to live off the state is not

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acceptable. You are planning a new 2000 capacity mega prison and other

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smaller presence which will be run by private firms. After what has

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happened with G4S, why would you do that? No decision has been made

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about whether it will be public or private. What do you think it will

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be? I'm not sure yet. There is no clear correlation over public and

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private prisons and whether there are problems or otherwise. Oakwood

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is in its early stages, it has had teething problems at the start, but

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the rate of disturbance there is only typical for an average prison

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of its category. If you take an example of Parc prison in Wales a

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big private run prison, run by G4S, when it was first launched under the

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last government it had teething problems of the same kind as Oakwood

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and is now regarded as one of the best performing prisons. Why would

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you give it to a private company then? We have only just got planning

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permission for the so we will not be thinking about this for another few

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years. Some of the companies who run prisons are under investigation with

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dreadful track records. In the case of G4S, what we have experienced is

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acceptable and they have not been able to go ahead with a number of

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contracts they might have otherwise got. They are having to prove to the

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Government they are fit to win contracts from the Government again.

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They are having to pay compensation to the Government and the taxpayer.

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What has happened is unacceptable. So why would you give them a 20 0

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capacity mega prison? Or anyone like them? It cannot be said that every

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private company is bad. In addition to problems at Oakwood, you are

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quite unique now in your position that you have managed to get the

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barristers out on strike the first time since history began. What

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happens if the bar refuses to do work at your new rates of legal aid

:20:23.:20:27.

and the courts grind to a halt? I don't believe that will happen. When

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the barristers came out on strike, three quarters of Crown Courts were

:20:33.:20:37.

operating normally, 95% of magistrates courts were operating

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normally. We are having to take difficult decisions across

:20:43.:20:46.

government, I have no desire to cut back lately but we are spending over

:20:47.:20:50.

?2 billion on legal aid at the moment at a time when budgets are

:20:51.:20:55.

becoming tougher. You issued misleading figures about criminal

:20:56.:21:02.

barristers, you said that 25% of them earn over ?100,000 per year but

:21:03.:21:08.

that is their turnover, including VAT. 33% of that money goes on their

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expenses, they have to pay for their own pensions and insurance. People

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are not getting wealthy out of doing this work. I don't publish figures,

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our statisticians do, with caveats in place explaining the situation.

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Where you have high-cost cases, where we have taken the most

:21:31.:21:35.

difficult decisions, we have tried hard in taking difficult decisions

:21:36.:21:39.

to focus the impact higher up the income scale. But do you accept

:21:40.:21:50.

their take-home pay is not 100, 00? I accept they have to take out other

:21:51.:21:55.

costs, although some things like travelling to the court, you and I

:21:56.:21:58.

and everyone else has to pay for travelling to work. That is net of

:21:59.:22:10.

VAT. We have had a variety of figures published, some are and some

:22:11.:22:16.

are not. Let's be clear, the gross figures for fees from legal payments

:22:17.:22:23.

include 20% VAT. On a week when even a cabinet minister can be fitted up

:22:24.:22:29.

by the police, don't we all need well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:30.:22:35.

chance that as a result well-financed legal aid? There is no

:22:36.:22:39.

changes people will end up in court unable to defend themselves. We have

:22:40.:22:51.

said in exceptional circumstances, if you haven't got any money to pay,

:22:52.:22:56.

we will support you, but there is no question of anyone ended up in

:22:57.:23:00.

court, facing a criminal charge where they haven't got a lawyer to

:23:01.:23:06.

defend them. Let's look at how so many dangerous criminals have

:23:07.:23:10.

managed to avoid jail. Here are the figures for 2012. Half the people

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for sexual assault found guilty not jailed. I thought you were meant to

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be tough on crime? Those figures predate my time, but since 2010 the

:23:29.:23:33.

number of those people going to jail has been increasing steadily. If you

:23:34.:23:39.

put the figures for 2010 on there, you would see a significant change.

:23:40.:23:43.

We will never be in a position where everybody who commits violence will

:23:44.:23:49.

end up in jail. The courts will often decided to his more

:23:50.:23:52.

appropriate to give a community sentence, but the trend is towards

:23:53.:23:57.

longer sentences and more people going to jail. That maybe but it is

:23:58.:24:02.

even quite hard to get sent to jail if you do these things a lot, again

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and again. In 2012 one criminal avoided being sent to jail despite

:24:10.:24:14.

having more than 300 offences to his name. 36,000 avoided going to jail

:24:15.:24:23.

despite 15 previous offences. That is why we are taking steps to

:24:24.:24:27.

toughen up the system. Last autumn we scrapped repeat cautions. You

:24:28.:24:34.

could find people getting dozens. As of last autumn, we have scrapped

:24:35.:24:39.

repeat cautions. If you commit the same offence twice within a two year

:24:40.:24:44.

period you will go to court. You still might end up not going to

:24:45.:24:50.

jail. More and more people are going to jail. I cannot just magic another

:24:51.:24:57.

34,000 prison places. You haven t got room to put bad people in jail?

:24:58.:25:03.

The courts will take the decisions, and it is for them to take the

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decisions and not me, that two men in a bar fight do not merit a jail

:25:09.:25:14.

sentence. These figures contain a huge amount of offences from the

:25:15.:25:20.

most minor of offences to the most despicable. Something is wrong if

:25:21.:25:24.

you can commit 300 offences and still not end up in jail. That's

:25:25.:25:29.

right, and we are taking steps so this cannot happen any more. Nick

:25:30.:25:37.

Clegg said this morning you are going to make 12 billion of welfare

:25:38.:25:44.

cuts on the back of this, he is right, isn't he? People on the

:25:45.:25:49.

lowest incomes are often not paying tax at all, the rich... But these

:25:50.:25:58.

cuts will fall disproportionately on average earners, correct? Let's look

:25:59.:26:03.

at the proposal to limit housing benefit for under 25s. Until today,

:26:04.:26:11.

after people have left school or college, the live for a time with

:26:12.:26:16.

their parents. For some, that is not possible and we will have to take

:26:17.:26:20.

that into account, but we have said there is a strong case for saying

:26:21.:26:24.

you will not get housing benefit until you are some years down the

:26:25.:26:30.

road and have properly established yourselves in work. And by

:26:31.:26:32.

definition these people are on lower than average salaries. Give me a

:26:33.:26:41.

case in which those on the higher tax band will contribute to the

:26:42.:26:46.

cuts. We have already put in place tax changes so that the highest tax

:26:47.:26:51.

rate is already higher than it was in every year of the last

:26:52.:26:59.

government. The amount of tax.. There is no more expected of the

:27:00.:27:05.

rich. We will clearly look at future policy and work out how best to

:27:06.:27:08.

distribute the tax burden in this country and it is not for me to

:27:09.:27:13.

second-guess George Osborne's future plans, but we need to look at for

:27:14.:27:19.

example housing benefit for the under 25s. Is it right for those who

:27:20.:27:26.

are not working for the state to provide accommodation for them?

:27:27.:27:31.

Thank you for being with us. All three major parties at

:27:32.:27:34.

Westminster agree there's an urgent need to build more homes for

:27:35.:27:36.

Britain's growing population. But how they get built, and where, looks

:27:37.:27:40.

set to become a major battle ground in the run-up to the next general

:27:41.:27:42.

election. Although 16% more house-builds were

:27:43.:27:44.

started in 2012/13 than the previous year, the number actually completed

:27:45.:27:48.

fell by 8% - the lowest level in peacetime since 1920. The Office for

:27:49.:27:55.

National Statistics estimates that between now and 2021 we should

:27:56.:27:58.

expect 220,000 new households to be created every year. At his party's

:27:59.:28:05.

conference last autumn, Ed Miliband promised a Labour government would

:28:06.:28:12.

massively increase house-building. I will have a clear aim but by the end

:28:13.:28:17.

of the parliament, Britain will be building 200,000 homes per year

:28:18.:28:22.

more than at any time for a generation. That is how we make

:28:23.:28:26.

Britain better than this. The Labour leader also says he'd give urban

:28:27.:28:29.

councils a "right to grow" so rural neighbours can't block expansion and

:28:30.:28:32.

force developers with unused land to use it or lose it. The Government

:28:33.:28:37.

has been pursuing its own ideas including loan guarantees for

:28:38.:28:40.

developers and a new homes bonus to boost new house-building. But David

:28:41.:28:44.

Cameron could have trouble keeping his supporters on side - this week

:28:45.:28:47.

the senior backbencher Nadhim Zahawi criticised planning reforms for

:28:48.:28:49.

causing "physical harm" to the countryside. Nick Clegg meanwhile

:28:50.:28:56.

prefers a radical solution - brand new garden cities in the south east

:28:57.:29:11.

of England. In a speech tomorrow, Labour's shadow housing minister

:29:12.:29:13.

Emma Reynolds will give more details of how Labour would boost

:29:14.:29:16.

house-building, and she joins me now. It is not the politicians to

:29:17.:29:21.

blame, it is the lack of house-builders? We want a vibrant

:29:22.:29:26.

building industry, and at the moment that industry is dominated by big

:29:27.:29:31.

house-builders. I want to see a more diverse and competitive industry,

:29:32.:29:34.

where self build plays a greater role. In France over 60% of new

:29:35.:29:42.

homes are built by self builders, but small builders build more homes

:29:43.:29:48.

as well. 25 years ago they were building two thirds of new homes,

:29:49.:29:52.

now they are not building even a third of new homes. That's because

:29:53.:29:56.

land policies have been so restrictive that it is only the big

:29:57.:29:59.

companies who can afford to buy the land, so little land is being

:30:00.:30:04.

released for house building. I agree, there are some fundamental

:30:05.:30:08.

structural problems with the land market and that is why we have said

:30:09.:30:12.

there doesn't just need to be tinkering around the edges, there

:30:13.:30:16.

needs to be real reforms to make sure that small builders and self

:30:17.:30:21.

build and custom-built have access to land. They are saying they have

:30:22.:30:26.

problems with access to land and finance. At the end of the day it

:30:27.:30:32.

will not be self, small builders who reach your target, it will be big

:30:33.:30:38.

builders. I think it is pretty shameful that in Western Europe the

:30:39.:30:42.

new houses built in the UK are smaller than our neighbours. But

:30:43.:30:50.

isn't not the land problem? France is 2.8 times bigger in land mass and

:30:51.:30:54.

we are and that is not a problem for them. There is a perception we are

:30:55.:31:03.

going to build on the countryside, but not even 10% is on the

:31:04.:31:08.

countryside. There is enough for us to have our golf courses. There is

:31:09.:31:16.

enough other land for us to build on that is not golf courses. The

:31:17.:31:21.

planning minister has said he wants to build our National Parks, I am

:31:22.:31:25.

not suggesting that. The single biggest land border is the public

:31:26.:31:31.

sector. It is not. There are great opportunities for releasing public

:31:32.:31:35.

land, that is why I have been asking the government, they say they are

:31:36.:31:40.

going to release and of public land for tens of thousands of new homes

:31:41.:31:44.

to be built, but they say they are not monitoring how many houses are

:31:45.:31:49.

being built on the site. When your leader says to landowners, housing

:31:50.:31:56.

development owners, either use the land or lose it, in what way will

:31:57.:32:02.

they lose it? Will you confiscated? This is about strengthening the hand

:32:03.:32:07.

of local authorities, and they say to us that in some cases,

:32:08.:32:11.

house-builders are sitting on land. In those cases, we would give the

:32:12.:32:15.

power to local authorities to escalate fees. This would be the

:32:16.:32:22.

compulsory purchase orders, a matter of last resort, and you would hope

:32:23.:32:26.

that by strengthening the hand of local authorities, you could get the

:32:27.:32:34.

house-builders to start building the homes that people want. Would you

:32:35.:32:40.

compulsory purchase it? We would give the local authority as a last

:32:41.:32:45.

resort, after escalating the fees, the possibility and flexible it is

:32:46.:32:49.

to use the compulsory purchase orders to sell the land on to a

:32:50.:32:52.

house builder who wants to build houses that we need. Can you name

:32:53.:32:57.

one report that has come back in recent years that shows that

:32:58.:33:00.

hoarding of land by house-builders is a major problem? The IMF, the

:33:01.:33:05.

Conservative mayor of London and the Local Government Association are

:33:06.:33:08.

telling us that there is a problem with land hoarding. Therefore, we

:33:09.:33:12.

have said, where there is land with planning permission, and if plots

:33:13.:33:17.

are being sat on... Boris Johnson says there are 180,000 plots in

:33:18.:33:23.

London being sat on. We need to make sure the house-builders are building

:33:24.:33:30.

the homes that young families need. They get planning permission and

:33:31.:33:33.

sell it on to the developer. There is a whole degree of complicity but

:33:34.:33:37.

there is another problem before that. That is around transparency

:33:38.:33:42.

about land options. There is agricultural land that

:33:43.:33:46.

house-builders have land options on, and we do not know where that is.

:33:47.:33:53.

Where there is a need for housing, and the biggest demand is in the

:33:54.:33:59.

south-east of England, that is where many local authorities are most

:34:00.:34:04.

reluctant to do it, will you in central government take powers to

:34:05.:34:07.

force these authorities to give it? We have talked about the right to

:34:08.:34:15.

grow, we were in Stevenage recently. What we have said is we

:34:16.:34:22.

want to strengthen the hand of local authorities like Stevenage so they

:34:23.:34:25.

are not blocked every step of the way. They need 16,000 new homes but

:34:26.:34:31.

they do not have the land supply. What about the authorities that do

:34:32.:34:35.

not want to do it? They should be forced to sit down and agree with

:34:36.:34:39.

the neighbouring authority. In Stevenage, it is estimated at

:34:40.:34:43.

?500,000 has been spent on legal fees because North Hertfordshire is

:34:44.:34:46.

blocking Stevenage every step of the way. Michael Lyons says the national

:34:47.:34:53.

interest will have to take President over local interest. Voice cannot

:34:54.:35:00.

mean a veto. The local community in Stevenage is crying out for new

:35:01.:35:05.

homes. Do you agree? There has to be land available for new homes to be

:35:06.:35:09.

built, and in areas like Oxford, Luton and Stevenage... Do you agree

:35:10.:35:14.

with Michael Lyons? The national interest does have to be served,

:35:15.:35:36.

will put the five new towns? We have asked him to look at how we can

:35:37.:35:42.

incentivise local authorities to come forward with sites for new

:35:43.:35:47.

towns. You cannot tell us where they are going to be? I cannot. We will

:35:48.:35:52.

have to wait for him. When you look at the historic figures overall, not

:35:53.:35:58.

at the moment, Private Housing building is only just beginning to

:35:59.:36:01.

recover, but it has been pretty steady for a while. The big

:36:02.:36:04.

difference between house-building now and in the past, since Mrs

:36:05.:36:09.

Thatcher came to power a and including the Tony Blair government,

:36:10.:36:12.

we did not build council houses. Almost none. Will the next Labour

:36:13.:36:17.

government embark on a major council has programme? We inherited housing

:36:18.:36:24.

stock back in 1997... This is important. Will the next Labour

:36:25.:36:30.

government embark on a major council has programme? We have called on

:36:31.:36:34.

this government to bring forward investment in social housing. We

:36:35.:36:38.

want to see an investment programme in social housing, I cannot give you

:36:39.:36:43.

the figures now. We are 18 months away from the election. Will the

:36:44.:36:48.

next Labour government embark on a major council house Northern

:36:49.:36:53.

programme? I want to see a council house building programme, because

:36:54.:36:56.

there is a big shortage of council homes. That is a guess? Yes. We got

:36:57.:37:05.

there in the end. -- that is a yes? We will be talking to Patrick homes

:37:06.:37:12.

in the West Midlands in a moment. You are watching the Sunday

:37:13.:37:15.

Politics. Coming up in just over 20 minutes, I will look at the week

:37:16.:37:20.

ahead with our political panel and Jacob

:37:21.:37:27.

Welcome to Sunday Politics South. My name's Peter Henley. On today's show

:37:28.:37:32.

it's been water, water everywhere this week. But why do so many places

:37:33.:37:37.

keep on flooding? Is the Environment Agency getting the funds it needs

:37:38.:37:40.

for flood prevention, and are councils being properly compensated

:37:41.:37:44.

for clearing up the aftermath? More on that in a moment. First, let's

:37:45.:37:48.

meet our two guests of the day. Rowenna Davis is Labour's 2015

:37:49.:37:50.

parliamentary candidate for Southampton Itchen. Chris Chope is

:37:51.:37:54.

the Conservative MP for Christchurch. You were campaigning

:37:55.:38:05.

on rail fares this week, Rowenna Davis, saying it costs ?5,000 a

:38:06.:38:13.

season ticket, do you say the increase is unreasonable? The price

:38:14.:38:19.

is already too high for people in Southampton and the South East.

:38:20.:38:25.

?5,200 to go to London for an annual ticket. What it means to many people

:38:26.:38:31.

we spoke to is they cannot afford to continue working in the capital or

:38:32.:38:35.

not looking for jobs there in the first place, which is bad for the

:38:36.:38:38.

economy because people cannot take the work that is there and it is bad

:38:39.:38:42.

for individual suffering already with the high cost of living. The

:38:43.:38:48.

coalition have realised this is a problem because they capped

:38:49.:38:52.

increases? They capped some of them so they would not go up as much as

:38:53.:38:57.

otherwise would have been. It is holding the economy back, huge fare

:38:58.:39:03.

rises? Who else will pay? We need to invest in the railway. People look

:39:04.:39:08.

at the improvements between Southampton and London, they are

:39:09.:39:14.

amazing, compared to when I went to Parkway station. It is an enormous

:39:15.:39:18.

station with massive investment and likewise the rolling stock. The

:39:19.:39:22.

question is, who will pay for it? The people he use the railways were

:39:23.:39:31.

smacked the people who are not? 1990, when Chris Chope was transport

:39:32.:39:36.

Minister, John Prescott grumbled in the House of Commons that the cost

:39:37.:39:39.

of a standard return ticket from London to Brighton had gone from 565

:39:40.:39:48.

up to ?16 20 in 1990, compared to the first in 1978. ?16 20 in 1990.

:39:49.:39:58.

It must be about ?30 now. But, for 20p more, you can get the off`peak

:39:59.:40:04.

return which is ?16 40. Flexible fares? If we talk about the problem

:40:05.:40:09.

of people not being able to work, those off`peak tickets are not

:40:10.:40:14.

available to those working. We were told that privatisation would bring

:40:15.:40:19.

prices down and they never have. And we still have companies making

:40:20.:40:23.

millions and expecting to make more profits this year if you look at the

:40:24.:40:28.

South West trains report. That is unacceptable when people are

:40:29.:40:31.

suffering and the economy is suffering. Why should commuters pay

:40:32.:40:36.

for this only? We all want good railways. Likewise, why should we

:40:37.:40:44.

pay for the roads? Why should it just be rail users who are

:40:45.:40:50.

privileged. You may be forgiven this week to feel it has been chucking it

:40:51.:40:54.

down for 40 days and 40 nights already. It has seemed like an

:40:55.:40:59.

endless cycle of high winds, high tides and rising floodwaters. And as

:41:00.:41:02.

our Oxford political reporter Helen Catt now reports, there's hardly a

:41:03.:41:06.

place in our region that has escaped a soaking.

:41:07.:41:12.

It started with high winds and waves battering our stretch of the coast.

:41:13.:41:19.

In Dorset, this home Park was evacuated for the second time in a

:41:20.:41:24.

fortnight and the residents' plight was mentioned in the House of

:41:25.:41:29.

Commons by a Bournemouth MP. Given the changing weather patterns, what

:41:30.:41:33.

more could be done in the long term towards improved river and sea

:41:34.:41:40.

defences? As my honourable friend knows in Bournemouth and Dorset we

:41:41.:41:44.

had 290 homes flooded. I agree with him that the worst `` the work of

:41:45.:41:51.

the emergency services and Environment Agency has been

:41:52.:41:54.

excellent. Local authorities have had good plans and put them into

:41:55.:41:59.

place competently, but not every local authority does as well and

:42:00.:42:03.

lessons will be learned. In Christchurch, it was a similar

:42:04.:42:08.

story. The properties may become impossible to live in. People might

:42:09.:42:12.

be thrown out of their homes. Many of the residents are elderly. It

:42:13.:42:17.

might fall to the local council to house these people, maybe at

:42:18.:42:22.

considerable cost. Inland, the rain kept falling and the water kept

:42:23.:42:27.

rising, and even getting to the shops was a major effort. The

:42:28.:42:32.

majority of houses on this stretch of the River Thames are adapted to

:42:33.:42:36.

cope with something like these conditions, they are raised on

:42:37.:42:40.

stilts. For those that are not, this is a disaster. Just getting in and

:42:41.:42:46.

out. The currents are pulling along the road and getting dangerous you

:42:47.:42:51.

feel that you will get swept over. In Purley near Reading there was

:42:52.:42:56.

anger as residents used paddle power to get around. Promised work on

:42:57.:43:00.

flood defences which they say could have saved houses has not been done.

:43:01.:43:06.

It is precarious, but it seems to be levelling out. We have been worried.

:43:07.:43:12.

How about getting to school? This is the first day trying to get them

:43:13.:43:17.

out. We did not have the boat before. As the week closed, concern

:43:18.:43:21.

was on the River Thames South of Oxford, where two people died. Seven

:43:22.:43:29.

days of alerts, warnings and severe warnings have left councils, the

:43:30.:43:33.

Environment Agency and home owners contemplating the cost of that

:43:34.:43:36.

water. Joining me now is a member of the

:43:37.:43:40.

Loddon Valley Residents' Association. Long Valley is working.

:43:41.:43:50.

How has it been? It has been terrible, but we were fortunate ``

:43:51.:43:58.

Lord and Valley. It is not as bad as 2007, but it has been hairy for

:43:59.:44:02.

people over the Christmas period with people woken up at 5:30am, with

:44:03.:44:09.

a warning saying water was coming there day and spending Christmas Day

:44:10.:44:13.

worrying about whether the house would remain dry. The report from

:44:14.:44:21.

2007 when we had a lot of flooding, it said warnings were important,

:44:22.:44:27.

have they been better? In principle, warnings are fantastic because it

:44:28.:44:29.

allows people to protect their property. Not once the warnings have

:44:30.:44:35.

happened and the floodwaters have abated, you have people who have

:44:36.:44:40.

their lives decimated, trying to put it back together. So having the

:44:41.:44:47.

upfront stuff is fantastic, it is what happens afterwards that is the

:44:48.:44:53.

problem, having things in place which might prevent flooding in

:44:54.:44:57.

future, maintenance, those things. We heard about people getting

:44:58.:45:00.

together to get diggers to clear culverts. Is it self`help that is

:45:01.:45:06.

important in this situation, with help from the experts, or are there

:45:07.:45:12.

people who cannot do things? It is a mix. We have a group in Swallowfield

:45:13.:45:17.

who are fantastic in doing self`help. It is not always the

:45:18.:45:23.

case, and not always safe to do that. Often, it is expertise.

:45:24.:45:28.

Self`help might be putting up a barrier, but where does the water go

:45:29.:45:35.

if you do? You could cause problems downstream. And it is so

:45:36.:45:40.

unpredictable. The experts look at it and you do not know if your

:45:41.:45:45.

individual house you may have bought recently is liable or not, do you

:45:46.:45:50.

think we need more information? Or do you just accept the rain will

:45:51.:45:55.

fall where it falls? We need to have the flood assets, more preparation,

:45:56.:45:59.

ditches, culverts, they have to be cleared. You have to make sure the

:46:00.:46:06.

river is maintained. You do not want points along the river occurring and

:46:07.:46:10.

spilling out the water. The key is preparation. What is your feeling

:46:11.:46:17.

about Environment Agency cuts? The cuts are worrying. I have had phone

:46:18.:46:24.

calls and conversations with residents who are worried. Going

:46:25.:46:27.

back to the river and the idea it has to be maintained to make sure it

:46:28.:46:31.

does not choke up and cause flooding, will the cuts impact

:46:32.:46:36.

that? Think of cuts with local authorities, who have to maintain

:46:37.:46:40.

flood assets, the being prepared type of thing which we are worrying

:46:41.:46:44.

about going. If you think further afield, you have hard engineering.

:46:45.:46:53.

Morpeth. The big capital investments. You will maintain that

:46:54.:46:57.

after the Environment Agency cuts? Thanks very much. Although heavy

:46:58.:47:06.

floods seem to be almost an annual event now, they are hardly something

:47:07.:47:09.

that anyone can budget for. So who exactly pays for the clear up?

:47:10.:47:12.

Here's Helen again. Local authorities often pick up the

:47:13.:47:17.

bill for dealing with this kind of unexpected event. There is a

:47:18.:47:21.

government programme to provide compensation that says that once a

:47:22.:47:27.

local authority has spent 0.2% of its annual budget on eligible

:47:28.:47:30.

mopping up arrangements, it will be reimbursed from central government.

:47:31.:47:35.

The government even has a table for how much authorities have dispensed

:47:36.:47:41.

before they trigger the grant, so in Bournemouth, if the council spends

:47:42.:47:45.

just over 400,000, it can claim of the extra and in West Berkshire it

:47:46.:47:50.

is the same. In Wiltshire, with the flooding around Salisbury, it is

:47:51.:47:55.

just over 1 million. Oxfordshire County Council, it is almost 1.5

:47:56.:48:00.

million. It is not all good news, the government only hands over 85%

:48:01.:48:05.

of what they say is eligible, so councils might have to dip into

:48:06.:48:14.

reserves kept for a rainy day. And thanks to all South Today

:48:15.:48:17.

viewers who provided those amazing photos. Joining us from our Oxford

:48:18.:48:20.

studio is Rodney Rose, who's the deputy leader of Oxfordshire County

:48:21.:48:23.

Council. Facing quite a clear`up bill from the looks of it. Are you

:48:24.:48:27.

going to have to pay for it out of that rainy`day money you have saved?

:48:28.:48:30.

We certainly are, the formula is totally unfair to big county council

:48:31.:48:34.

's like us. It will not give you enough money? It will not give us

:48:35.:48:40.

any money, it did not in 2007, anyway. We have to get above the 1.5

:48:41.:48:46.

million which is extra spend on the emergency before we can claim. Do

:48:47.:48:51.

you feel it is a lottery because of the size of the authority, when

:48:52.:48:56.

others get help? The bigger problem is it is based on the revenue budget

:48:57.:49:01.

of the local authority. We have so many extra miles of river and road,

:49:02.:49:08.

but also we have bills such as 34 million for school transport, adult

:49:09.:49:12.

services and the children's budget, which create a cut`off point for

:49:13.:49:18.

this scheme. So you feel it is unfair in that some get help and you

:49:19.:49:21.

will not, but what would be a better way of doing it? I think it's

:49:22.:49:31.

somehow relates back to the number of people employed in the highways

:49:32.:49:37.

and local fire service, which in Oxfordshire is county council run,

:49:38.:49:40.

it should not relate to other budgets we are involved in. And

:49:41.:49:46.

places, such as Oxfordshire, which is more susceptible with the Thames

:49:47.:49:50.

Valley, to having these problems where other authorities might not

:49:51.:49:54.

have these issues? We have a longer length of the River Thames. We have

:49:55.:49:58.

3000 miles of roads which have problems with flooding and that adds

:49:59.:50:04.

to the cost. Coastal communities, Christchurch, Chris Chope, facing

:50:05.:50:07.

more problems with the high tides this time. Do you think there should

:50:08.:50:14.

be a better way of ensuring central government supports individual

:50:15.:50:18.

authorities? Nobody has found a better way than the formula. Which

:50:19.:50:23.

Rodney Rose says does not work. It might not work for him because he

:50:24.:50:28.

does not benefit, but it is an insurance policy with the government

:50:29.:50:32.

saying the national taxpayer will intervene if your losses are more

:50:33.:50:36.

than a particular percentage of the budget. If I have an insurance

:50:37.:50:42.

policy, I know what I will get for the premium. It is not quite the

:50:43.:50:47.

same, but there is no certainty. He knows that his outgoings will not be

:50:48.:50:53.

sufficient to qualify for the formula money, which shows that the

:50:54.:50:59.

costs in Oxfordshire as a percentage of the budget will be below the

:51:00.:51:05.

threshold. That seems, to me, a perfectly reasonable way of having a

:51:06.:51:12.

policy sharing expense sharing between national taxpayers and local

:51:13.:51:15.

taxpayers. That is what the formula was designed to achieve. Do you

:51:16.:51:24.

think it is working? Know, and it does not deal with preventative work

:51:25.:51:28.

the local authorities have to do `` no. It is about clearing up the mess

:51:29.:51:32.

and national government has an incentive to get involved if a local

:51:33.:51:36.

region is effective because press attention is there and they need to

:51:37.:51:41.

be seen to be doing something. But more dangerously, they are removing

:51:42.:51:45.

the preventative work and we know about the cuts to the Environment

:51:46.:51:49.

Agency and job cuts, and that is doing damage to particular areas. If

:51:50.:51:55.

I take Southhampton, it would be fantastic if we could develop the

:51:56.:51:59.

west side of the river itching, which is honourable to flooding, but

:52:00.:52:04.

we cannot do it because the money for flood defences has not been put

:52:05.:52:09.

in place and as a result the investment and insurance costs are

:52:10.:52:12.

too high for businesses and local people lose out on jobs and homes.

:52:13.:52:17.

Are there things you would like to do in Oxfordshire that you do not

:52:18.:52:21.

get money for? More important is stopping gridlock in the city, when

:52:22.:52:28.

roots in our blocked due to flooding, which leaves me trying to

:52:29.:52:33.

find 120 million, one scheme in mind, and I do not know with deficit

:52:34.:52:37.

reduction where the money is coming from. For the tax payer, it makes

:52:38.:52:43.

economic sense to put this investment in, because there are not

:52:44.:52:47.

the costs of the community has to bear? Yes I would not like to think

:52:48.:52:53.

of the economic cost to Oxford city in the past days. That is something

:52:54.:52:57.

we have to face and we have to raise that money, and at the moment, and I

:52:58.:53:03.

certainly support deficit reduction, but we have to keep those aspects of

:53:04.:53:13.

public spending going. And you can see more on how the floods have hit

:53:14.:53:17.

the South in tomorrow night's Inside Out on BBC One at 7:30pm, including

:53:18.:53:20.

Jon Cuthill making milk deliveries in a kayak to cut off households.

:53:21.:53:24.

The Prime Minister began the New Year with a trip to the South Coast.

:53:25.:53:28.

He came to promote the Help To Buy scheme, but his visit included a

:53:29.:53:31.

photocall that some felt had rather backfired.

:53:32.:53:33.

Sharon was the 30`year`old single mother chosen for David Cameron to

:53:34.:53:38.

visit. Just before Christmas she exchanged contracts on a ?135,000

:53:39.:53:44.

two`bedroom flat in Southhampton. We are not helping people to buy homes

:53:45.:53:48.

they cannot afford, we help people who do not have wealthy parents that

:53:49.:53:53.

cannot get a big deposit together, and we are helping them to realise

:53:54.:53:57.

their dreams, which is good for them and the economy. I would not have

:53:58.:54:02.

been able to afford childcare and to save at the same time, so it has

:54:03.:54:09.

helps me to get onto the ladder. Sharon's two`year`old was on hand as

:54:10.:54:14.

David Cameron had a tour, standard publicity stuff, even the pose with

:54:15.:54:20.

a cup of tea. But press coverage and online comments made huge play of

:54:21.:54:24.

personal details picked up from Sharon's Twitter account, that she

:54:25.:54:29.

had bought a BMW convertible and was sales director of the estate agency

:54:30.:54:33.

that sold the flat. It became a witchhunt. People were

:54:34.:54:40.

saying this is an estate agent, why does she deserve... She has a flash

:54:41.:54:44.

car, why do she have help from the scheme? I do not want to continue

:54:45.:54:51.

the victimisation of her and it really was, I think she has recently

:54:52.:54:55.

divorced and has gone through a lot and seems to work hard, and she was

:54:56.:54:59.

not deserving of that criticism because she was picking up on the

:55:00.:55:05.

policy available to her, she was not breaking rules. There might be a

:55:06.:55:09.

deeper question about the nature of the policy and who it is open to,

:55:10.:55:15.

but that is the government's responsibility. Do you think she

:55:16.:55:21.

should get help with her mortgage? I am saying nobody should blame her

:55:22.:55:25.

for applying for a benefit open to her. She did not break any rules.

:55:26.:55:31.

What I have concerns about is the policy itself, and why it is open to

:55:32.:55:36.

those people. We know it is open to buying houses up to ?600,000 in

:55:37.:55:42.

value, a huge amount. In Southhampton we have a waiting list

:55:43.:55:46.

of 14,004 council homes and it will never be open to those people to

:55:47.:55:55.

apply this scheme. It does nothing to solve the problem of a shortage

:55:56.:55:58.

of houses. If you want to tackle this, look at supply. Why does

:55:59.:56:05.

taxpayers' money goes to help people with decent incomes, rather than

:56:06.:56:11.

those suffering without appropriate housing? I would like to see a

:56:12.:56:15.

system that gets the housing market moving, which means reducing the tax

:56:16.:56:21.

on transactions. That is why I think it is better to invest in reducing

:56:22.:56:27.

stamp duty on all house purchases and sales in the lower range. Less

:56:28.:56:35.

than 600,000, presumably? That would help everybody and get the market

:56:36.:56:40.

moving. The trouble with this policy is that it picks a few winners and a

:56:41.:56:45.

lot of other people do not benefit. I have argued that levels of stamp

:56:46.:56:51.

duty are too high on relatively modest house purchase transactions

:56:52.:56:54.

and reducing that would be a better thing. Do you agree we need to get

:56:55.:56:59.

the market moving, not just those at the bottom, but to get confidence?

:57:00.:57:06.

This policy artificially inflate house prices and gives us another

:57:07.:57:12.

bubble when prices rose by 11% in Southhampton already, and it does

:57:13.:57:18.

not deal with supply. People build more houses. Prices are rising

:57:19.:57:22.

massively already. It only helps a small proportion of people. Do you

:57:23.:57:27.

think we will have a housing bubble? I hope we do not. There is a

:57:28.:57:33.

danger but I think the Chancellor is watching that. Now our regular

:57:34.:57:36.

round`up of the political week in the South in 60 seconds.

:57:37.:57:52.

Diving in the deep end. Portsmouth MP's political opponents thought she

:57:53.:57:58.

was in hot water after signing up for a reality TV programme splash.

:57:59.:58:01.

She said she gave the ?10,000 fee to charity. I work hard for Portsmouth,

:58:02.:58:09.

like me or loathe me. Too much water was the excuse of Gatwick for

:58:10.:58:12.

cancelling flights on Christmas Eve, telling MPs that flooding led

:58:13.:58:17.

to power cuts and police were called to call order. The chief constable

:58:18.:58:21.

of the Thames Valley said they were not fiddling crime figures. We need

:58:22.:58:26.

the public to trust the police to tell the truth. Criminal lawyers in

:58:27.:58:31.

Oxford protested about plans to cut legal aid, with fees potentially

:58:32.:58:38.

being cut by 30%. The unions at Bournemouth University are insulted

:58:39.:58:43.

by a 19% increase in the Vice Chancellor's salary when staff who

:58:44.:58:50.

are teachers were offered a 1% rise. A variation on who is getting an

:58:51.:58:55.

increase in salary and most people are not. Lawyers getting less money,

:58:56.:58:59.

the legal aid budget, does that concern you? It is a serious

:59:00.:59:05.

concern. There are so many people who do not have access to justice

:59:06.:59:09.

because they feel they cannot afford it. The system must be based on the

:59:10.:59:15.

righteousness of your case and not power and I am worried that is no

:59:16.:59:19.

longer going to be happening. But when money is tight, surely saving

:59:20.:59:23.

money given to lawyers has to be a good thing? You have to make a

:59:24.:59:28.

distinction between legal aid lawyers who work for little money

:59:29.:59:32.

and lawyers who work in other sectors. To cut those who are giving

:59:33.:59:36.

up time for legal aid cases is criminal. You are a barrister. Have

:59:37.:59:44.

people always complained about the money available on legal aid? A cut

:59:45.:59:52.

of 30% seems huge. There is an issue about the quality of the advocacy.

:59:53.:59:59.

We have two encourage good quality advocates to litigate on behalf of

:00:00.:00:03.

the people. If we cut it too much, we might end up with inferior

:00:04.:00:07.

quality advocates which will have a knock`on effect in taking longer in

:00:08.:00:12.

court and be counter`productive, so I am sympathetic with the case. It

:00:13.:00:18.

is fantastic, he disagrees with the Conservative party on so much!

:00:19.:00:19.

That's the Sunday will not be revoked. And I wouldn't

:00:20.:00:25.

want it to go. Thank you, back to Andrew.

:00:26.:00:35.

Can David Cameron get his way on EU migration? Will he ever be able to

:00:36.:00:40.

satisfy his backbenchers on Europe? Is Ed Miliband trying to change the

:00:41.:00:49.

tone of PMQ 's? More questions for the week ahead.

:00:50.:00:54.

We are joined by Jacob Rees Mogg from his constituency in Somerset.

:00:55.:01:00.

Welcome to the programme. You one of the 95 Tory backbenchers who signed

:01:01.:01:06.

this letter? Suddenly. Laws should be made by our democratically

:01:07.:01:10.

elected representatives, not from Brussels. How could Europe work with

:01:11.:01:18.

a pick and mix in which each national parliament can decide what

:01:19.:01:28.

Brussels can be in charge of? The European Union is a supernatural

:01:29.:01:32.

body that is there for the cooperation amongst member states to

:01:33.:01:34.

do things that they jointly want to do. It ought not be there to force

:01:35.:01:41.

-- to enforce uniform rules on countries that do not want to

:01:42.:01:44.

participate. It is the vision of Europe that people joined when we

:01:45.:01:50.

signed up to it and came in in 973. It has accreted powers to itself

:01:51.:01:55.

without having the support of the public of the member states. This is

:01:56.:02:00.

just a way of preparing the ground for you to get out of Europe

:02:01.:02:05.

altogether, isn't it? I do not big so. There is a role for an

:02:06.:02:09.

organisation that does some coordination and that has trade

:02:10.:02:12.

agreements within it, I do not think there is a role for a federal state.

:02:13.:02:19.

Europe seems to be dominating the. I remember your leader telling you not

:02:20.:02:23.

to bang on about Europe, your backbench colleagues seem to have

:02:24.:02:27.

ignored that. Would you like to restrict the flow of EU migrants to

:02:28.:02:35.

come to work in this country? Yes. I think we should have control of our

:02:36.:02:39.

own borders, so we can decide who we want to admit for the whole world.

:02:40.:02:44.

What we have at the moment is a restrictive control of people coming

:02:45.:02:49.

from anywhere other than the EU There is a big decrease in the

:02:50.:02:52.

number of New Zealanders who came in the last quarter for which figures

:02:53.:02:57.

are available, but a huge increase in people coming from the continent.

:02:58.:03:02.

Does it really make sense to stop our second cousins coming so that we

:03:03.:03:05.

can allow people freely to come from the continent? I do not think so, we

:03:06.:03:11.

need to have domestic control of our borders in the interests of the

:03:12.:03:15.

United Kingdom. There are still lots more people coming from the rest of

:03:16.:03:18.

the world than from the European Union. That has been changing. But

:03:19.:03:27.

there are still more. A lot more. The permanent residence coming from

:03:28.:03:30.

the European Union are extremely high. In the period when the Labour

:03:31.:03:37.

Party was in charge, we had to put 5 million people coming here, of whom

:03:38.:03:42.

about 1 billion were from Poland. -- we had 2.5 million people coming

:03:43.:03:50.

here. We have no control over them. Like the clock behind you, you are

:03:51.:03:54.

behind the times on these figures. I have stopped the clock for your

:03:55.:03:58.

benefit, because it was going to chime otherwise! I thought that

:03:59.:04:05.

might be distracting! Only a Tory backbencher could stop a clock!

:04:06.:04:15.

Helen, when you at this up, it is preparing to get out, is it not We

:04:16.:04:20.

have had this one bill about a referendum that seems to have tied

:04:21.:04:24.

us up in knots for months on end. If Parliament could scrutinise every

:04:25.:04:31.

piece of EU legislation, we would never get anything else done. It

:04:32.:04:35.

would be incredible. Even Chris Grayling said earlier that you can

:04:36.:04:40.

not have a national veto on anything that the EU proposes. I am surprised

:04:41.:04:46.

that Jacob Rees Mogg is talking about dismantling one of Margaret

:04:47.:04:50.

Thatcher's most important legacies, the creation of the single market,

:04:51.:04:56.

and the person sent there to dream it up under Margaret Thatcher said

:04:57.:04:59.

the only way you can run this sensibly is by not having national

:05:00.:05:03.

vetoes, because if you have that, guess what will happen? The French

:05:04.:05:07.

will impose lots of protectionist measures. It was Margaret

:05:08.:05:12.

Thatcher's idea that national parliaments should never veto. How

:05:13.:05:15.

could you fly in the face of the lady? Even the great lady makes

:05:16.:05:27.

mistakes. Excuse me, Jacob Rees Mogg says even Margaret Thatcher makes

:05:28.:05:30.

mistakes! No wonder the clock has stopped! Even be near divine

:05:31.:05:36.

Margaret made a mistake! But on the single market, it has been used as

:05:37.:05:45.

an excuse for massive origination of domestic affairs. We should be

:05:46.:05:48.

interested in free trade in Europe and allowing people to export and

:05:49.:05:52.

import freely, not to have uniform regulations, as per the single

:05:53.:05:57.

market, because what that allows is thought unelected bureaucrats to

:05:58.:06:02.

determine the regular vision. We want the British people to decide

:06:03.:06:06.

the rules for themselves. If this makes the single market not work,

:06:07.:06:10.

that is not the problem, because we can still have free trade, which is

:06:11.:06:16.

more important. If David Cameron is watching this, I am sure he is, it

:06:17.:06:22.

will be nice for you to come on and give us an interview, he must be

:06:23.:06:27.

worried. He is beginning to think, I am losing control. It is a clever

:06:28.:06:32.

letter, the tone is ingratiating and pleasant, every time, you have stood

:06:33.:06:39.

up to Brussels, you have achieved something, but the content is

:06:40.:06:42.

dramatic. If you want Parliament to have a veto, you want to leave the

:06:43.:06:47.

EU, because the definition is accepting the primacy of European

:06:48.:06:52.

law. The MPs should be clear about that. It is almost a year since the

:06:53.:06:56.

Europe speech in which David Cameron committed to the referendum. The

:06:57.:07:01.

political objective was to put that issue to bed until the next

:07:02.:07:06.

election. It has failed. David Cameron is going to have to pull off

:07:07.:07:11.

a major miracle in any renegotiations to satisfy all of

:07:12.:07:14.

this. Yes, it makes me think how much luckier he has been in

:07:15.:07:22.

coalition with the Liberal Democrats, because there is a bit of

:07:23.:07:24.

the Tory party that is irreconcilable to what he wants to

:07:25.:07:29.

do. The Conservative MPs are making these demands just as David Cameron

:07:30.:07:33.

is seeing the debate goes his way in Europe. Angela Merkel has looked

:07:34.:07:38.

over the cliff and said, do I want the UK out? No, they are a

:07:39.:07:43.

counterbalance to France. France one the UK to leave, but they do not,

:07:44.:07:48.

because they do not want to lose the only realistic military power Tom

:07:49.:07:54.

other than themselves. Just when the debate is going David Cameron's way,

:07:55.:07:59.

Jacob Rees Mogg would take us out. Let me move on to another subject.

:08:00.:08:05.

That is nonsense. The debate is not beginning to go David Cameron's way.

:08:06.:08:10.

We are having before us on Monday a bill about European citizenship and

:08:11.:08:14.

spending British taxpayers money so that Europe can go and say we are

:08:15.:08:21.

all EU citizens, but we signed up to being a part of a multinational

:08:22.:08:26.

organisation. The spin that it is going the way of the leader of a

:08:27.:08:29.

political party is one that has been used before, it was said of John

:08:30.:08:34.

Major, it was untrue then and it is now. It is, for the continuing

:08:35.:08:39.

deeper integration of the European Union. I want to ask a quick

:08:40.:08:49.

question. Chris Grayling said to us that the Tories would devise a way

:08:50.:08:51.

in which the British Supreme Court would be supreme in the proper

:08:52.:08:56.

meaning of that, but we could still be within the European Court of

:08:57.:08:59.

Human Rights. Can that circle be squared? I have no idea, the Lord

:09:00.:09:07.

Chancellor is an able man, and I am sure he is good at squaring circles.

:09:08.:09:12.

I am not worried about whether we remain in the convention or not PMQ

:09:13.:09:22.

's, we saw a bit about this week, Paul Gorgons had died, so the house

:09:23.:09:28.

was more subdued, but he wants a more subdued and serious prime

:09:29.:09:31.

ministers questions. Let's remind ourselves what it was like until

:09:32.:09:37.

now. What is clear is that he is

:09:38.:09:40.

floundering around and he has no answer to the Labour Party's energy

:09:41.:09:45.

price freeze. The difference is John Major is a good man, the Right

:09:46.:09:49.

Honourable gentleman is acting like a conman. Across the medical

:09:50.:09:55.

profession, they say there is a crisis in accident and emergency,

:09:56.:10:00.

and we have a Prime Minister saying, crisis, what crisis? How out of

:10:01.:10:05.

touch can hate the? You do not need it to be Christmas to know when you

:10:06.:10:10.

are sitting next to a turkey. It is not a bad line. Is Ed Miliband

:10:11.:10:18.

trying to change the tone of prime ministers questions? Is he right to

:10:19.:10:23.

do so? The important point is this was a special prime ministers

:10:24.:10:25.

questions, because everybody was really sad and by the death of Paul

:10:26.:10:32.

Goggins and in the country, the legacy of the floods. That was the

:10:33.:10:37.

first question that Ed Miliband asked about, so that cast a pall

:10:38.:10:41.

over proceedings. When it suits him, Ed Miliband would like to take a

:10:42.:10:46.

more statesman-like stance, but will it last? That is how David Cameron

:10:47.:10:50.

started. His first prime ministers questions, he said to Tony Blair, I

:10:51.:10:54.

would like to support you on education, and he did in a vote

:10:55.:11:01.

which meant Tony Blair could see off a naughty operation from Gordon

:11:02.:11:04.

Brown. But it did not last, they are parties with different visions.

:11:05.:11:10.

Jacob Rees Mogg, would you like to see it more subdued? I like a bit of

:11:11.:11:17.

Punch and Judy. You need to have fierce debate and people putting

:11:18.:11:21.

their views passionately, it is excellent. I am not good at it, I

:11:22.:11:26.

sit there quite quietly, but it is great fun, very exciting, and it is

:11:27.:11:30.

the most watched bit of the House of Commons each week. If it got as dull

:11:31.:11:37.

as ditchwater, nobody would pay attention. Three cheers for Punch

:11:38.:11:43.

and Judy. Ed Miliband is going to make a major speech on the economy

:11:44.:11:47.

this week. You can now define the general approach. We had it from

:11:48.:11:51.

Emma Reynolds, we have seen it over energy prices, this market is bust,

:11:52.:11:59.

the market is not working properly, and that will therefore justify

:12:00.:12:03.

substantial government intervention. Intervention which does not

:12:04.:12:10.

necessarily cost money. It is the deletion and reorganising

:12:11.:12:11.

industries. It constitutes an answer to the question which has been

:12:12.:12:15.

hounding him, what is the point of the Labour Party when there is no

:12:16.:12:18.

money left? He says, you do not spend a huge amount fiscally, but

:12:19.:12:23.

you arrange markets to achieve socially just outcomes without

:12:24.:12:27.

expenditure. It is quite serious stance. I am not sure it will

:12:28.:12:32.

survive the rigours of an election campaign, but it is an answer. Is

:12:33.:12:38.

that an approach, to use broken markets, to justify substantial

:12:39.:12:42.

state intervention? Yes, and the other big plank is infrastructure

:12:43.:12:47.

spending. The Lib Dems would not be against capital investment for info

:12:48.:12:50.

structure will stop Emma Reynolds talking about house-building, the

:12:51.:12:55.

idea of pumping money into the economy through infrastructure is

:12:56.:13:00.

something that the Labour Party will look at. Jacob Rees Mogg, you once

:13:01.:13:04.

thought Somerset should have its own time zone, and today, you have

:13:05.:13:10.

delivered on that promise! Live on the Sunday Politics! I try to

:13:11.:13:18.

deliver on my promises! That is all for today, the Daily

:13:19.:13:21.

Politics is on BBC Two every day this week, just before lunch. I

:13:22.:13:27.

aren't back next Sunday here on BBC One at 11am. -- I am back. If it is

:13:28.:13:32.

Sunday, it is the Sunday Politics.

:13:33.:13:38.

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