Browse content similar to 13/07/2014. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Just two months to go until Scotland decides if it should stay | :00:37. | :00:42. | |
As the campaign heads for the final furlong, | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
what are the issues and arguments that will determine the result? | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
The SNP's deputy leader Nicola Sturgeon joins me live. | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
David Cameron's scheduled a major cabinet reshuffle on Tuesday. | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
Many of those tipped for promotion are women. | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
So have efforts to promote diversity in public life barely started or | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
And don't know whether to support Germany or | :01:03. | :01:11. | |
Later in the programme: political guide to the World Cup. | :01:12. | :01:20. | |
A dramatic week in Cardiff Bay ends a very eventual first half | :01:21. | :01:22. | |
It's World Cup final day and as usual the BBC's snagged the | :01:23. | :01:40. | |
Yes, eat your heart out, ITV, because for top football analysis | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
we've got Gary Lineker, Alan Hansen, and Alan Shearer. | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
And for top political analysis you may | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
as well tune in to them too because all we could come up with is Nick | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
David Cameron will reshuffle his cabinet on Tuesday. | :01:57. | :02:06. | |
The Sunday papers are full of stories telling us who'll be | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
in and who'll be out, though they don't really know. | :02:10. | :02:11. | |
The Mail on Sunday has one of the more eye-catching lines, | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
reporting that former defence secretary and right-winger Liam Fox | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
is in line for a return to the political front line. | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
But there's general agreement that women will do well and some | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
of the old men in suits guard will do badly. | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
Here's senior Tory backbencher David Davis speaking to this programme. | :02:31. | :02:39. | |
It's good to make parliament more representative. | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
But you've got to do it in a way that doesn't create | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
injustices, and you can't put people in a job who can't do the job. | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
And I've seen that too over the last 20 years, people being | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
accelerated too far too fast and they come to | :03:02. | :03:03. | |
a screeching halt where they have to catch up with themselves. | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
I am not going to give an example. Is this not a bit cynical? He is | :03:10. | :03:22. | |
going to promote these women into cabinet positions, but they will not | :03:23. | :03:30. | |
be able to do anything. I am sceptical of Cabinet reshuffle. It | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
is an un-written pact in that the media and the government have a | :03:37. | :03:43. | |
great interest in talking it up. The government says, haven't we | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
refreshed ourselves? Generally it doesn't refresh the government. | :03:48. | :03:51. | |
David Cameron wants to send out a new signal. You're going to see the | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
old guard getting a P 45 and you will see a lot of women come in and | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
a lot of younger men. We will find there will be a lot of resignations. | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
A lot of, dear Prime Minister, as I told you 18 months ago, I want to | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
move on. Because the Conservatives have this perception of not being | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
very good with women and not being good with black and ethnic minority | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
voters, they are going to want to do something about that. Why did he not | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
do it before? This reshuffle might be the triumph of the a list. A lot | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
of the women coming through the ranks have been from the a list | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
which was a half measure because they knew they could not bring all | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
of them in. You are going to see more women but that is a result of a | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
long-term strategy. David Cameron is not the world's most raging | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
feminist. He is doing this for practical reasons. He knows he has | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
an image problem for the party and he has to solve it. He was stung by | :05:02. | :05:11. | |
that picture of the all-male bench at Prime Minister's Questions | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
because visibly it gave you the problem that you have been talking | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
about. I do not think he has allowed it to be all-male since that | :05:20. | :05:24. | |
embarrassing image. I can understand the criticism made of this approach | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
if it was the case that all the women being promoted by talentless | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
but you have to be very harsh to look at them and say that they would | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
have much less to offer than the likes of Andrew Lansley. You can be | :05:40. | :05:52. | |
pro-feminist. The tests for David Cameron is that having raised | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
expectations he has to give them substantial jobs. They have to be | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
given departments to run or big portfolios to carry. If they are | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
given media campaign positions in the run-up to the election it looks | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
perfunctorily. He is under some trouble to perhaps suggest a female | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
commissioner to the European Union Commission. Jean-Claude Juncker has | :06:16. | :06:24. | |
made clear that if he proposes a woman candidate they will get a | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
better job. Saying they would like ten out of the 28 to be women. We | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
are going to get the name of the British candidate at the same time | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
as the reshuffle. The first face-to-face meeting, he will be | :06:44. | :06:49. | |
able to put a name. There are other names in the frame. People like | :06:50. | :06:56. | |
Archie Norman. That come from? His name is in the frame. There would be | :06:57. | :07:05. | |
great scepticism of giving it to Andrew Lansley. People would think | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
he was the man who mucked up the reform of the NHS. Who is it going | :07:09. | :07:17. | |
to be? Either a woman or a man. I would not be surprised if they go | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
for someone believe dynamic. Someone who would square the party. Would | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
that not mean a by-election? It might. She is a high profile | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
Eurosceptic. She is a very competent former banker. It would be the smart | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
choice. I have no idea but my favourite rumour is Michael Howard. | :07:41. | :07:42. | |
That had some legs for a while. The Mystic Megs of Fleet Street | :07:43. | :07:50. | |
predict with confidence that the PM is going to promote more women | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
in his cabinet reshuffle. The move can be seen as part | :07:56. | :07:56. | |
of a move across British public life to do more to make our institutions | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
less male and less white. But as the list | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
of schemes to encourage diversity grows ever-longer, have we abandoned | :08:03. | :08:04. | |
the idea of appointment by merit? Tunnelling. Hard hats, and all for | :08:05. | :08:20. | |
new trains. It does not get more macho than the Crossrail project. | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
When Crossrail looked at the construction industry they realise | :08:26. | :08:26. | |
that less than 20% was made up construction industry they realise | :08:27. | :08:37. | |
women and they asked, can we fix it? They are trying with a recruitment | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
drive that has brought in female engineers like this woman. She even | :08:40. | :08:46. | |
has a tunnel named after her. Having more female engineers and | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
construction brings a bigger range of opinions, a bigger range of | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
ideas, more diversity, into the industry, and makes it better as a | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
whole. It is the issue being grappled in another male dominated | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
workplace, the Cabinet. There is about to be a reach shuffle and the | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
rumour is David Cameron is going to promote a lot of female ministers. | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
It was a lack of promotion that annoyed Harriet Harman this week. | :09:13. | :09:18. | |
She claimed Gordon Brown did not make her Deputy Prime Minister | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
because she was a woman. It was strange that in a hard-fought highly | :09:23. | :09:25. | |
contested election to be deputy leader of the Labour Party, and | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
having won against men in the Cabinet, to succeed to be deputy | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
leader of the Labour Party I discovered that I was not to be | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
appointed as Deputy Prime Minister. For women in this country, no matter | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
how able they are, the matter how hard they might work, they are still | :09:43. | :09:49. | |
not equal. There are initiatives to make the world feel more equal. In | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
the City the EU wants a quarter for women in the boardroom but that goal | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
of making 40% of the top floor female. At the BBC the boss of the | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
TV division says no panel show should ever be all-male. In the ever | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
glamorous movie business the British film Institute announced their new | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
thematic system to get lottery funding projects improving diversity | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
on screen and off and helping social mobility. Employers like Crossrail | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
are not allowed to positively discriminate but under the quality | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
act of 2010 if two candidate for a job are just as good you are allowed | :10:32. | :10:36. | |
to base your decision on characteristics like race, sexuality | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
and gender. Some worry it has chipped away at the idea of hiring | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
on merit. A woman and three men going for a job, two of the men are | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
really good and the woman is not quite as good but she gets the job | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
anyway. That will create injustice, a feeling that she did not deserve | :10:57. | :11:04. | |
the job, resentment. It does not advance equality in society at all. | :11:05. | :11:14. | |
On this project they want to leave a concrete legacy of a more diverse | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
construction industry. The question is, what tools do you use when it | :11:19. | :11:19. | |
comes to the rest of society? I'm joined now by | :11:20. | :11:31. | |
Yasmin Alibhai-Brown, a columnist for the Independent, | :11:32. | :11:32. | |
and by Munira Mirza, the deputy mayor of London responsible | :11:33. | :11:35. | |
for education and culture. Cabinet wee shovel coming up punches | :11:36. | :11:47. | |
though. Should David Cameron be promoting women? He is going to do | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
it anyway. He should have a long time ago. It does not feel quite | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
right that a few months before the election it would do the party a lot | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
of good to be seen as a party properly reflective of the entire | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
population. He should promote women because they are women? I think he | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
should think about lots of different factors, whether the people he wants | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
promote have proven themselves in their current reefs, whether they | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
are good performers in the media, whether they represent different | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
parts of the party, but the main principle is to promote on basis of | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
merit. There are many talented women who fill that description. It should | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
be that merit is the important thing rather than what you were born with. | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
The thing about positive discrimination as it flies in the | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
face of that kind of principle. You are shaking your head. We have | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
always had positive discrimination. Men of a certain class have | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
appointed in their own image because they feel most comfortable with | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
that. We have had unspoken positive discrimination in this country and | :13:05. | :13:06. | |
every other country throughout history. We are asking as women, all | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
minorities, let us get into the same game. What do you say? You cannot | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
solve the racism or the sexism of the past by more racism and sexism. | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
It is not the past. There are complex reasons why a smaller number | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
of women will appear in certain industries. It has a lot to do with | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
childcare, education, expected. You cannot short cut that by setting a | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
target. That is not how you achieve equality. Things are changing and | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
more women are appearing in engineering and so on but it will | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
take time. My worry is that these kinds of measures are | :13:49. | :13:50. | |
counter-productive and undermine the perception that women can do it on | :13:51. | :13:52. | |
their own merit rather counter-productive and undermine the | :13:53. | :13:54. | |
perception that women can do it than because they need a helping hand. It | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
is not a helping hand. It is to say, we are as good as men and these | :14:00. | :14:10. | |
hidden barriers. Dot. Either they are not as good or they do not want | :14:11. | :14:12. | |
it, which is just how we persuade are not as good or they do not want | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
it, which ourselves that it is not happening, or there are barriers. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
How we judge meritocracy is at the heart of it. Are lots of industries | :14:22. | :14:29. | |
won there are not that many women, such as engineering. We need more | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
engineers generally. I think it is fine to try to encourage more women | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
to study that subject. By setting a target you put pressure on an | :14:43. | :14:50. | |
organisation. You tried to ignore the complex reasons why women do not | :14:51. | :15:11. | |
go into those sectors. I think an all-female short list achieved | :15:12. | :15:21. | |
miracle in Parliament. This is following up from having an | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
injection of women coming up because the system was changed and a large | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
percentage of women went into Parliament under the all-female | :15:29. | :15:35. | |
short list were brilliant, so why not? So if the Prime Minister is | :15:36. | :15:42. | |
mailed the Deputy Prime Minister has to be female and vice versa? Yes, | :15:43. | :15:50. | |
absolutely, 50-50. We need to reflect the population. If we want | :15:51. | :15:59. | |
to play this as a symbolic gesture, ideally we should have one of each. | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
Why should a man get the job if you have a great female prime minister | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
and a great female Deputy Prime Minister? I personally wouldn't mind | :16:12. | :16:18. | |
this. I hear the disgruntled man and I want to come -- them to come with | :16:19. | :16:28. | |
us. You're choosing people on the basis of traits they were born | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
with. Are there too many Indian doctors in the NHS? I would argue | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
not. Given that we tend to have male prime ministers rather than female | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
ones, and we don't see another female one coming down the pipe very | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
quickly... In the time before women short lists by the way. If you had a | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
male prime minister with a female Deputy Prime Minister, wouldn't that | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
give some balance? Why women? Why not working class person, which | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
group do you prioritise? I would go with you that we need something | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
fundamental to change. This idea that what we have now is a | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
reflection of a genuine meritocracy is highly questionable. I would | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
argue that when you look at the statistics things are changing. | :17:22. | :17:23. | |
argue that when you look at the statistics things There are more | :17:24. | :17:25. | |
women appearing in parts of public life, that is a long-term trend, but | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
if you are trying to appoint people on what they were born with... That | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
is not the only reason but it is an additional reason. She has to be | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
able to do the job, obviously. I am saying the policy of hazard to | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
discrimination explicitly state that you should choose somebody who is | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
female because they are female. At the moment there is already enough | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
suspicion about women who are successful to get to the senior | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
position and if you institutionalise it you reinforce that suspicion. | :18:04. | :18:05. | |
Harriet Harman is still complaining women are not being treated fairly. | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
I think the policy reinforces the prejudice that women are not getting | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
there because they are treated on the same basis. Although you may not | :18:17. | :18:23. | |
want to have the all-female short list forever, wasn't it the kind of | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
shock to the system that made a visible change in female | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
representation, which the Tory side hasn't got? Of course it will work | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
short-term but longer term it has a very degrading effect on the | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
principle of equality and the fact Harriet Harman is saying she wasn't | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
treated equally, whether it is true or not, the perception is still | :18:50. | :18:58. | |
there. A number of women find this position must be reserved for a | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
woman lying patronising, and speaking of patronising women, you | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
spoken your Independent column, she presses all of the buttons for white | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
people... Was that patronising and offensive? Probably. I wrote it | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
because I felt that at the time but the point is that I was a token when | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
I was appointed. The paper brought me in because I was a woman and I | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
was a muslin or whatever. You are not writing about yourself. I was | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
writing... It doesn't mean you don't criticise other women. We absolutely | :19:38. | :19:54. | |
have to be tough, Manira is tough and so am I. Do you want to take | :19:55. | :20:01. | |
back what you wrote? No. Do you really think positive discrimination | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
has gone too far? I think there is already a suspicion out there that | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
in certain sectors women are being promoted for the wrong reasons or | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
ethnic minorities are being promoted for the wrong reasons. That is a | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
shame and my worry is that by tying funding to your ethnicity or your | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
gender, by saying you will get a promotion if you check that box, but | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
you feel that resentment and prejudice and undermine the case for | :20:32. | :20:41. | |
inequality. I wanted to be treated equally, because I am capable of | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
doing that job. Only two months to go before Scotland takes its biggest | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
constitutional decision in 300 years - should it quit or stay with the | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
UK? For some in Scotland campaign has been going on forever. What has | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
been the impact on the campaign to date? | :21:06. | :21:12. | |
Alex Salmond says Scotland would remain part of the European Union | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
with sterling as its currency in a monetary union with the rest of the | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
UK, but he has also promised more public spending, increased child | :21:23. | :21:28. | |
care provision and free personal care for the elderly. The SNP claims | :21:29. | :21:35. | |
it would leave people better off by ?1000 though that partly depends on | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
the price of oil. With the Better Together arguing against | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
independence, it has naturally been attacking the SNP on all fronts. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
George Osborne says there will be no monetary union. President Barroso | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
told the BBC it would be extremely difficult for Scotland to join the | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
EU after a yes vote. His successor this week said he agreed. Unions | :22:04. | :22:16. | |
claim Scotland benefit by ?1400 by being part of the UK. A poll this | :22:17. | :22:24. | |
morning shows a significant lead of 57% for the no campaign, leaving the | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
SNP to claim it will go their way in the last ten weeks. Nicola Sturgeon, | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
the Deputy First Minister of Scotland, joins me now. You want an | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
independent Scotland to keep the pound, stay in NATO, stay in the | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
EU, Scotland already has all of that but you cannot guarantee it would | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
have any of it in an independent Scotland, why take the risk? All of | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
these things should be the case because they are in the best | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
interests of Scotland and the rest of the UK but we want the powers to | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
enable us to grow our economy faster, to be productive, and | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
overtime increased the prosperity of people living in Scotland. We also | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
want powers over our social security system so that we can create a | :23:20. | :23:25. | |
system that meets our needs, one that also has a safety net for the | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
most vulnerable people in our society. Independence is about | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
letting us decide our own priorities. You didn't answer my | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
question, you cannot guarantee you would be able to keep the pound | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
within a monetary union, stay in NATO and the EU, you cannot | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
guarantee you could produce any of these things, correct? I would argue | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
that we can because these things are also in the interest of the rest of | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
the UK. No country can be prevented from using the pound, I suggest we | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
use that within a formal monetary union. We have had the UK minister | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
quoted in the Guardian saying the position of the UK Government right | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
now is one based on campaign rhetoric and following a yes vote, | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
of course there would be a currency union. Who is that minister? The | :24:20. | :24:27. | |
Minister is unnamed, but nevertheless that story in the | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
Guardian was a solid one and not substantially denied. So you are | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
basing your monetary policy on one on named minister in one story? | :24:37. | :24:45. | |
Basing it on Common sense because monetary union would be in the best | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
interests for Scotland but also overwhelmingly in the interests of | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
the rest of the UK, given their trading relationship with Scotland | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
and the contribution Scotland's exports make. We are having a very | :25:00. | :25:07. | |
good debate and the UK Government and the no campaign, and this is not | :25:08. | :25:19. | |
a criticism, want to talk up in -- uncertainty to make people feel | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
scared, but after independence there will be constructed process of | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
negotiation. Let's stick with the monetary union because most | :25:29. | :25:31. | |
economists agree it would be very good for an independent Scotland to | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
have a monetary union but George Osborne, Ed Balls, Danny Alexander | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
are unequivocal, they say you won't get it. You claim they are bluffing | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
but again you cannot guarantee that so why the risk? I would say the | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
benefits of independence are substantial but I would also say to | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
George Osborne and his counterparts in the other parties that it would | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
be a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of half | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
a very brave Chancellor that says to businesses in the rest of the UK | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
that they have to incur unnecessary additional transaction costs of | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
half. What we are doing is making a case that is based on common sense | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
and voters in Scotland will listen to that case being put forward by | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
the other side as well, and they will come to a judgement of the | :26:25. | :26:33. | |
common-sense position. Let's look at EU membership because you haven't | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
been able to guarantee the monetary union. When President Barroso said | :26:37. | :26:46. | |
that a seamless transition to EU membership for an independent | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
Scotland was anything but certain, and one said it could even be | :26:50. | :26:55. | |
impossible, you dismissed him because he was standing down, but | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
been -- venue EU president says the same, do you dismissed him? What we | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
are doing... I should say at the outset of this, we have said | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
repeatedly to the UK Government, let's go jointly and ask for a | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
formal opinion on the EU commission. The EU commission have | :27:21. | :27:24. | |
said they will only do that at this stage if the UK Government ask for | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
it, they are point blank refusing to do that, you have to ask why? It is | :27:31. | :27:36. | |
in their interests to talk up uncertainty. Scotland is an integral | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
part of the European Union, we have been for 40 years, we comply with | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
the rules and regulations... Mr Juncker knows all of that but he | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
still says it will be anything but a seamless transition. He said you | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
could not join the European Union by sending a letter, that is not our | :28:00. | :28:10. | |
proposal. We set down a robust proposal and the timescale we think | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
is reasonable under these circumstances. There are many | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
nationals of other states living in Scotland right now, if we were to be | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
outside of the European Union for any period of time, something the | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
current treaty doesn't even provide for, they would lose their right to | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
stay here. The interests of Scotland and the interests of European Union | :28:37. | :28:39. | |
are in favour of a seamless transition. It comes down to common | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
sense and people in Scotland will make | :28:45. | :28:45. | |
sense and people in Scotland will their own judgement on who is | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
talking the common-sense. What about NATO, two years ago you told | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
Newsnight the SNP's position is that we wouldn't stay in NATO. We had a | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
democratic debate, we looked at whether it would be in the interests | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
of an independent Scotland, which forms a significant part of the | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
territory of the North Atlantic and the party changed its mind. It did | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
so in a thoroughly democratic way. That is the nature of democracy. | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
Would you accept the protection of the NATO nuclear umbrella? There is | :29:28. | :29:38. | |
no doubt the SNP's position is that we do not want nuclear weapons in | :29:39. | :29:47. | |
Scotland. That is not what I asked. The world rid themselves of nuclear | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
weapons. One of the interesting point is of the 28 member countries | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
of Natal 25 do not have nuclear weapons. An independent Scotland... | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
I asked if you would accept the nuclear umbrella. The key feature of | :30:00. | :30:11. | |
NATO's military dog train is now clear shrike. We would accept the | :30:12. | :30:18. | |
basis of which NATO is founded but we would argue two things. We want | :30:19. | :30:24. | |
Trident removed from Scotland rather than have a situation where might we | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
are spending ?100 billion over the next generation replacing Trident | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
and we would argue within the international community that the | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
world should move much more quickly to rid itself of nuclear weapons. | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
That is the principal position and won the SNP has held consistently | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
for many years. You would get rid of one of the key parts of the NATO | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
deterrent based in Scotland. You would kick that out. You would not | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
accept all of the club rules because you do not like the idea of nuclear. | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
Why would they like a member like you in? Because Scotland is a | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
significant part of the territory of the North Atlantic. You do not | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
subscribe to the rules. 25 of the member states of NATO are | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
non-nuclear members. You are saying you do not follow the doctrine. NATO | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
has said it wants to move away from reliance on nuclear weapons. An | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
independent Scotland would be entering the majority mainstream of | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
NATO as a country that did not have nuclear weapons. By leading by | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
example our moral authority and encouraging others to do likewise | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
would be increased. Money and oil, the finance minister has said that | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
an independent Scotland would increase public spending by 3% a | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
year. He would pay for that by borrowing. Your First Minister says | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
he is going to stash money in an oil fund. You're going to borrow and | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
save. How does that work? There are two points. Firstly in terms of the | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
outlook for finances and what is one of the central debates of this | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
referendum campaign, austerity that we know will continue if we stay as | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
part of the Westminster system versus prosperity. The economy can | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
afford a higher level of increase in public spending while we continue to | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
have deficit levels at a sustainable level. What is the point of | :32:29. | :32:34. | |
borrowing and saving at the same time? People who have a mortgage and | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
the savings account would not themselves what the wisdom of that | :32:40. | :32:45. | |
is. This is based on recommendations of our expert fiscal Commission that | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
as borrowing reduces to sustainable levels it makes sense to start | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
saving a proportion of our oil wealth. In Norway, which has many | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
similarities to Scotland, they have an oil fund worth ?500 billion. | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
Scotland is part of the Westminster system is sitting on a share of UK | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
debt. We can continue to allow our oil wealth, our vast oil wealth, to | :33:11. | :33:16. | |
be mismanaged or we can decide we are going to manage that resource | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
better in the years to come. Your figures do not add up unless you are | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
about oil prices and revenue and you have been consistently wrong in your | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
predictions. Last year you forecast that revenues would be the .7 | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
billion more than they actually work -- 3.7 billion. The cost of the | :33:39. | :33:46. | |
Scottish school system gone. There were particular reasons for that in | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
terms of interruption to production and bigger levels of investment. | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
Used ill have to find the money. Let me explain. They are based on robust | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
assumptions, firstly a production estimates that is in line with the | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
estimates of the oil and gas industry. Use of figures that are | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
based on production of 10 billion barrels of oil. Oil and gas has been | :34:08. | :34:15. | |
wrong as well. It is 24 billion left to be recovered. That is what is in | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
the UK Government's oil and gas strategy so production in line with | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
industry estimates and an oil price of $110 per barrel which is flat in | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
cash terms would be a real terms reduction. The Department of energy | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
is estimating $128 per barrel so our estimate compared to that is | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
cautious. These are robust estimates based on robust assumptions. Except | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
they have been wrong. Finally, we hear a lot from you and your fellow | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
nationalists, you want a Scandinavian style social democracy, | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
you know how to spend the money but you never tell us about social | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
democratic levels of taxation. Also should grizzlies have higher levels | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
of tax in Scotland does at the moment -- all social grizzlies. I | :35:09. | :35:14. | |
want a Scottish style of social democracy. Free education, free | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
medicines and balancing the books every single year. We want to get | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
more people into work in Scotland, raise the level of distribution in | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
the Labour market and make the economy more productive so we are | :35:31. | :35:33. | |
raising the overall tax revenue. Over the last 33 years we have | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
generated more taxpayer head of population than is the case and the | :35:40. | :35:47. | |
rest of the UK. Those last 33 years, some of those years oil prices would | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
have been high and in others they would have been law but we take | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
different decisions. A report showed that if we go as part of the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
Westminster system down the plate -- route of replacing Trident then the | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
cost will be as high as ?4 billion every year. Our share of that is the | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
hundred million pounds a year. Let us get access to our own resources | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
so we can make different and better decisions about how to spend the | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
resources we have. You are promising Scandinavian style social democratic | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
levels of public spending but you say you will not need a top rate of | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
tax of 56% which is what Scandinavia has, that all 25%, which is what | :36:31. | :36:39. | |
Scandinavia has and VAT of 15%. You are going to have the spending but | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
none of the taxes that make it possible in Scandinavia. For | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
mischievous reasons you are met -- misrepresenting what I am saying. | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
The Scottish economy can afford it and we want to generate more wealth | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
in our economy. We want to use the existing resources Scotland has. We | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
are the 14th richest country in the world in terms of what we produce. | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
We do not want to be wasting resources. We want to be spending | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
resources on the things that other priority for the people of Scotland. | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
These are the benefits and the opportunities really get if we take | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
the opportunity of voting yes and becoming independent. | :37:22. | :37:32. | |
Hello and on the Sunday Politics Wales: | :37:33. | :37:49. | |
We hear verdicts from all parties, including Labour, | :37:50. | :37:51. | |
We hear from Rosemary Butler, the Assembly's presiding officer, who is | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
And we take a whistle stop tour through a busy | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
Alun Davies was given a second chance by the First Minister when | :37:59. | :38:10. | |
he breached the Welsh Government's code of conduct for ministers. | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
Everyone seems to agree that Mr Davies had to go. | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
But is there a consensus on where his dismissal from the Cabinet | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
leaves him, the first minister and politics in the Assembly? | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
Campaign Assembly watchers have been enthralled this week by the | :38:23. | :38:39. | |
unfolding drama around the environment ministers sacking. | :38:40. | :38:47. | |
We saw an angry first Minister. I am not prepared to tolerate that kind | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
of behaviour. And an incandescent opposition. I find that answered | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
deeply offensive because your minister was trying to seek | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
information to cause political damage to individuals in this | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
chamber. Do you regret not sapping Alun Davies last week and says that | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
not speak volumes about a severe lapse in judgement on your part? A | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
week before he was sacked Alun Davies had been given a second | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
chance by the first Minister. He had broken ministerial rules when he | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
lobbied a body he was responsible for about a race track in his | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
constituency. The latest episode happened only hours after the | :39:32. | :39:34. | |
ministers job had been spared when the first minister asked -- find out | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
he had asked for private information on other AM is, he had to go. Alun | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
requested information about five opposition members including the | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
leader of the Conservatives in the assembly, Andrew R.T. Davies. I want | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
to make sure that people have confidence that it isn't a more | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
systematic attempt by Welsh Labour winning government to use their | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
ministerial offices to blacken the name of either politicians, | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
charities, businesses or individuals by using information in the wrong | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
way. So I think we do need an independent enquiry cheered by an | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
independent judge to look at all this. He also says the Blaenau Gwent | :40:18. | :40:29. | |
Assembly Member is not fit to be in Assembly Member at a former Labour | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
adviser, though agreeing the minister had to go, thinks Welsh | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
politics needs more people like Alun Davies. It was right that he had to | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
go. I think everybody wreck wises that but the reaction has been | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
disproportionate to his offence. For all his faults Alun Davies is an | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
entertaining politician. He is not afraid of debate and whilst he was | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
wrong on this occasion I don't think you can equate a political attack, | :41:02. | :41:08. | |
even a political personal attack, I don't think this is a smear and | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
don't think the information he was trying to was personal. But there | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
are plenty would disagree and believe this week 's events have had | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
a wide-ranging impact. I think it has certainly been damaging to the | :41:23. | :41:25. | |
first Minister. His judgement has been called into question. Having to | :41:26. | :41:33. | |
focus on personal characters in his cabinet rather than concentrating on | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
public services is an indictment for the first Minister. It is a bad | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
reflection on the Welsh Government but also to an extent the National | :41:44. | :41:49. | |
Assembly as an institution. All Assembly Members need to be aware of | :41:50. | :41:56. | |
the fact there is only 60 of us and the spotlight shines quite heavily | :41:57. | :42:03. | |
upon us as individuals and our actions don't only reflect us as | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
individuals, they reflect the national democratic institution and | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
ultimately Wales in general. It has not been a great week for the first | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
Minister. It does not been a great week for Welsh Labour. I think the | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
long-term damage will be minimal. I don't think people will be talking | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
about this in the next assembly election. The challenges will | :42:27. | :42:33. | |
continue for the Labour government but they are around public service | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
reform. It has fascinated those within this building but the sacking | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
had not led an impression on many of those enjoying the sun in Cardiff | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
Bay this week. I have been out of the news this week sorry. I am | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
Ashley from the USA. He made a decision last week and was given a | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
second chance but what he did this week was obviously not acceptable. | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
If they collectively decide he has done something wrong then goodbye. | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
But those who were watching this week 's first Minister 's questions | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
judge did to be one of the most fiery they had seen. You have now | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
accused me a second time and I won't stand for the third time. I have no | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
idea what he's talking about. It seemed to mark a new low in | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
relations between the first Minister and the leader of the opposition. | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
The latter insists it's not personal. I hope the first Minister | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
and I get on well on a personal level. We enjoy rugby and I still | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
they read before the assembly team. We do have a lot in common. | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
Politically we are different. He is laid a lever and I am the | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
Conservative leader. The chamber is the place to explore and exploit and | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
debate those differences and ultimately the electorate will form | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
an opinion. This is not about personality because I would like to | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
think we have got up pretty good relationship outside the chamber. | :44:12. | :44:17. | |
The first Minister might have a different idea but that is the way I | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
look at it. Not the best two days for Welsh Labour and the first Mr | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
Baird in a weeks time, Assembly Members will leave Cardiff Bay for | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
the summer. A welcome break for some after what has been a bruising end | :44:31. | :44:32. | |
to the political year. Mr Davies declined our request | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
for an interview, But I'm pleased to say the Plaid | :44:39. | :44:40. | |
Cymru AM Simon Thomas joins us from Aberystwyth, and in the studio are | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
Eluned Parrortt from the Liberal This has obviously been a very busy | :44:46. | :44:58. | |
week in the assembly. Is that the end of it or is there more to come? | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
It is the end of Alun Davies' ministerial career for now but there | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
are questions to be answered. It makes Carwyn Jones looks week and | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
gullible as a leader. He gave somebody a second chance will reward | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
him by breaking the ministerial code again. The second issue is looking | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
to the future, how can we clean things up? We need to look at how | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
the Minister the deal code is policed. -- ministerial cold. -- | :45:30. | :45:42. | |
ministerial cold. We have to move forward in a way that a clean style | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
of politics. The first Minister says in a democracy he should be the one | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
to decide who's in and out of this cabinet. Do you agree? Ultimately, | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
yes I do. That has to be a question about who produces a report on the | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
conduct of ministers, who polices that and how we can ensure it is | :46:04. | :46:12. | |
published. In going forward we have to have an independent view of | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
ministers conduct in office when it has been questioned. It is the first | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
Minister who has to decide the Democratic process and he appoints | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
the Cabinet so he should be able to sack his Cabinet but they also think | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
we need a public element to this so we understand the nature of the | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
breaches of the ministerial code. On this occasion we saw that being let | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
off from the ministerial code encouraged the Minister to break up | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
the next morning. Is this the end of the affair? It has got to be. Alun | :46:49. | :46:58. | |
Davies was a very good Minister and nobody has criticised how he | :46:59. | :47:01. | |
performed. Carolyn Jones was decisive. Once he knew it had been | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
probing the second time he sacked him immediately. There was no | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
hanging about and he dealt with it effectively. Should he have done it | :47:12. | :47:18. | |
a week earlier? That affects every member of the government. If an | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
issue comes up in your constituency of great importance, what can you do | :47:23. | :47:30. | |
in order to try and help it? Alun Davies did that. As a backbench | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
member, they would be no problem at all with what he did. Is your view | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
that this earlier breach about the race track in Blaenau Gwent really | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
wasn't that serious? The first Minister to did it as a technical | :47:47. | :48:00. | |
breach. -- treated it. We are responsible to our constituents. | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
What this boils down to is that the first Minister David second chance. | :48:07. | :48:13. | |
Is that such a bad thing? That first breach was a very serious matter. He | :48:14. | :48:26. | |
leaned upon the planning process to make them change their mind. They | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
withdrew an objection to a contentious planning application and | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
it looks like that was as a result of the Minister's intervention. If I | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
had written to national resources will and said to them please can you | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
withdraw your rejection to this planning application, national | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
resources Wales would not have written back to me. The minister | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
right back to me. They did not behave in a way of a constituency | :48:52. | :49:01. | |
Assembly Member. Natural Resources Wales say in lobbying for the | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
racetrack Alun Davies was acting as a constituency member so was the | :49:05. | :49:15. | |
first breach really that serious? I believe the first breach was quite | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
serious. If you read the report by Derek Jones it says that the | :49:22. | :49:29. | |
interference of Alun Davies could be perceived as having changed the | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
decision making of Natural Resources Wales. The policing of the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
ministerial code is clear. It is about the perception of those | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
breaches because we must think in public confidence that ministerial | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
decision making is then on the basis of the greater national interest | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
which is a separate thing to individual Assembly Members lobbying | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
for their own constituencies. When you are chosen to be in government | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
you have to whack in a different way and the code is there to police | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
that. I thought his first breach was sufficient to be sacked or at least | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
to have the responsibility for natural resources Wales removed from | :50:09. | :50:19. | |
him. We have heard the leader of the opposition who says he once assured | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
and says this is not part of a wider misuse of the system by the Labour | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
Party. What is your response to that? He is playing politics. I get | :50:28. | :50:39. | |
with loads of planning applications and Natural Resources Wales | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
generally put an objection in an then withdrew it. It is fairly | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
common. It happened in my constituency fairly recently. | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
Councillors would have to declare the money they had from cap. They | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
would have to declare everything. It is wrong and we need to look at the | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
system in the assembly so people do declare public money they are | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
getting. Let's look at the fallout of all of this. The allegation is | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
that he was trying to smear his opponents. I don't think he could. | :51:15. | :51:23. | |
He could not have used the information if he had received it. I | :51:24. | :51:32. | |
think he was probably looking for background information and | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
consequently he acted in a way that was probably not be sensible. I | :51:35. | :51:42. | |
don't think he was going to go out and use the information. That is | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
delusional. Even the first Minister has said the only reasonable | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
explanation searching for this kind of information would be to use it | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
for party political purposes. If in sacking Alun Davies the first | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
Minister believes he was playing politics and trying to launch a | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
smear campaign against his opponents, why would you accept it? | :52:04. | :52:11. | |
We had David Taylor saying that is a public interest at stake here in | :52:12. | :52:19. | |
that if Assembly Members are talking about farm subsidy payments in the | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
assembly they should declare whether they or their families receive | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
them. Should that be the case? Absolutely. I have no problem with | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
that information being published. The specific details of those farm | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
payments are a hold-up the moment as a result of a European court | :52:39. | :52:43. | |
judgement. Looking to find that information was in contempt of a | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
European court decision. It was in breach of the data protection act | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
may be as well. So there are two very serious legal breaches there. | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
Let's hope the system out at the top and make the information public as | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
it was prior to 2008. The first Minister says the system works and | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
the Minister was caught doing wrong and has lost his job. What is the | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
complaint? If the system worked, he would not have tried it the next day | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
having given a final warning the previous day. That shows to me the | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
system is being treated with contempt and we have to ask whether | :53:27. | :53:28. | |
there is a wider pattern of behaviour here by some ministers | :53:29. | :53:35. | |
were putting pressure on external organisations in terms of getting | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
the results they want. We have had one party for a long time governing | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
in Wales on the hole and I think there might have been an attitude to | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
government we need to get with all -- get rid of. Do you agree this | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
does damage the assembly as an institution? It does but Carwyn | :53:54. | :54:03. | |
Jones acted immediately. He could have sacked Alun Davies without any | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
reason that he actually made everything public. You can't be more | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
open than that. The way Carwyn Jones dealt with that is a good example to | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
other institutions in the UK on how to deal with it rather than Saxilby | :54:19. | :54:20. | |
and keep it quiet. -- sack somebody. Parliament and the Assembly both | :54:21. | :54:36. | |
have one week until summer. For Welsh politicians, | :54:37. | :54:38. | |
that often means commencing the summer circuit of Eisteddfods | :54:39. | :54:40. | |
and agricultural shows. If you hope to ambush your AM or MP | :54:41. | :54:42. | |
at the village fete and bend their ear about what's been | :54:43. | :54:45. | |
going on in Westminster and Cardiff Bay, here's our whistle stop tour | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
of the Welsh political year so far. It all seemed to be progressing | :54:49. | :54:54. | |
smoothly, Upgrading the railways in South | :54:55. | :54:56. | |
Wales was a done deal, we thought. Then earlier this year, | :54:57. | :55:03. | |
the mother of all rows between the Welsh and UK governments | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
came thundering towards us. Neither side can agree who will | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
pay for rail electrification. There?s the ongoing spat | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
about the state of public services, Cavid Cameron calls Offa's Dyke | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
the line between life and death. There wasn't quite | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
a civil war within Labour about it but perhaps the most awkward | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
accusation that Carwyn Jones has faced about the NHS came from his | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
own side, from Labour MP Ann Clwyd. Mr Jones says at least some | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
of them will get better He?s thrown a lot of | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
his political weight behind a plan He'll need friends | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
in all parties to get his way. In February, we were wondering | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
how many friends Andrew R.T. He sacked five members of the Tory | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
shadow cabinet who rebelled in a row about giving the Assembly | :56:04. | :56:09. | |
income tax powers. The dismissal of Alun Davies | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
from the Welsh Government Cabinet has ended | :56:13. | :56:19. | |
an eventful first half to 2014. A Cabinet reshuffle in Westminster | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
perhaps ahead And maybe some Welsh politicians | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
fancy a busman's holiday in Scotland to lend a hand in the nation?s | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
campaign for the independence So far in 2014, there's been no | :56:34. | :56:36. | |
shortage of fodder for journalists like our political editor | :56:37. | :56:46. | |
Nick Servini, who joins me now. It has been a busy week and Rosemary | :56:47. | :56:57. | |
Butler the assembly 's Presiding Officer is going to stand down as | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
well. She was made a Dame in the New Year 's Honours list. She has been | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
Presiding Officer since 2011. She has been the right from the start of | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
this devolution process in 1999. She has been a government minister, she | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
has been a big promoter of women in front line politics. She is also | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
pushed hard to have more Assembly Members as well. That is something | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
she talked about when we caught up with her this morning. It is a very | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
different organisation than the one established in 1999. We can manage | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
with the number of people coming through but in ten years time there | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
will be more legislation and 60 members to scrutinise properly to | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
make sure we have the best possible laws for the people of Wales and to | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
scrutinise the government, it's a big ask and I strongly believe as | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
Presiding Officer that we need at least 80 members. Let's assess the | :58:01. | :58:10. | |
Alun Davies affair. They all agreed he needed to go but the opposition | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
clearly feel there are more questions. It was a very unusual | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
event for a Cabinet minister to be sacked in the way he was. Alun | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
Davies was a relatively young minister and a man who can -- most | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
people considered in the future in politics in Wales. He was in the | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
process of carrying out changes to the way the farming industry is | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
funded. And he's gone. It doesn't look as if he coming back. I base | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
that on the interview we did with Carwyn Jones in the week. The first | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
some kind of road to Damascus moment to bring Alun Davies back into his | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
Cabinet. -- first Minister. Some people say it has been a feeding | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
frenzy in the last week and it has resembled Westminster more. I don't | :59:02. | :59:09. | |
think anybody should be surprised by the response from the opposition | :59:10. | :59:11. | |
parties. This is a minister who broke the rules by trying to dig out | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
information he should not have about the opposition party a semi-members | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
as two of the opposition party leaders. We picked up there on the | :59:22. | :59:32. | |
row over the state of the NHS and reform of local. Do things like the | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
Alun Davies story destabilise the government and make it more | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
difficult for Carwyn Jones to make reforms? He has lost Alun Davies and | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
a year ago he lost Leighton Andrews. Different circumstances but those | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
two ministers had an ability to shake things up and they were not | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
afraid to challenge the lobby of the portfolios they represented. That | :59:59. | :00:06. | |
was useful for Carwyn Jones. A common criticism is that the Welsh | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
Government is too cosy and the religion should with the unions and | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
civil servants is too cosy. He has lost two ministers and he will be | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
mindful of that in terms of a reshuffle that we will expect at | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
some stage after the summer recess. Thank you very much for joining us. | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
And that's all from me this week and until the autumn, | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
will keep a bit safer. That is all the time we have. | :00:34. | :00:48. | |
So, plenty happening in Parliament this coming week, including | :00:49. | :00:50. | |
a controversial bill to make so-called assisted dying legal and | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
Lord Carey has intervened in the assisted dying debate. Will it make | :00:54. | :01:13. | |
a difference? It will make a difference because we have | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
established in the House of Lords, I am not sure who they speak for and | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
why they should have a privileged position, but he was a big opponent | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
and has made a change of heart. The fact that the Daily Mail has printed | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
this shows this is a big intervention. The Bill being pushed | :01:37. | :01:48. | |
through, is it now on the agenda? I think it is. There are international | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
examples of assisted dying elsewhere. The state of Oregon | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
passed a Bill similar to this in the 1990s and things have not got out of | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
control. That has not been an expansion or abuse. It has settled | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
down and become part of the furniture. That makes it easier for | :02:08. | :02:16. | |
this Bill, to make the case for it. Religious people may still have a | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
principled objection but most other people have a practical objection, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
which is how to put in place safeguards to deal with unscrupulous | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
relatives or anyone else who wants to abuse this right? Once a | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
controversial issue is only being opposed for practical reasons it is | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
on its way to getting its way. What is the division, is it the Church | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
against everybody else? Is it a right and left division? What is | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
stopping it? It is a very difficult moral issue and there are people who | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
can have genuinely held Christian beliefs or non-Christian beliefs who | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
can be on both sides. I think that the Lord Carey intervention is | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
potentially a game changer not just because he is a former Archbishop of | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
Canterbury but because he was on the Evan Jellicoe side of the Church of | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
England. That is quite a big move. The response was to say, please | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
withdraw your bell and let us have a royal Commission. The Supreme Court | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
kicked the ball back to Parliament when they rejected the cases of | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
three people who had been taking the case and said, we could say that | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
banning the right to life is against the European Court of Human Rights, | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
but it is a moral issue and an issue for Parliament. Parliament needs to | :03:39. | :03:47. | |
decide. The data act that is going to be pushed through Parliament. In | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
record time. To comply with a European court judgement. Tom Watson | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
and David Davis, some dissent. Are you so prized with how united the | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
establishment, left, right and centre is? No. There is a great | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
quote saying this has been enacted under the something must be done act | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
and that captures it exactly. Even Cameron says he does not want to | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
look people in the eye and say that he did not do everything he could. | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
There is no end to the power of surveillance. It is all was about | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
drawing a distinction. I am always suspicious when politicians look | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
something up and said, we have all agreed. Are there at the centre is | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
right or is the political establishment right? I think the | :04:43. | :04:51. | |
establishment is right. I think it is stronger than other issues. We | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
are in a unique position where all three political parties have | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
relatively recent experience of government so they now that security | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
threats are not made up by unscrupulous people. The legislation | :05:05. | :05:11. | |
being proposed is not dramatic, it is to fill a gap that was created. I | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
do not see the political controversy. All three political | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
parties support it. David Davis and Liberty are against that, and always | :05:24. | :05:31. | |
are. Would you not have expected... The Lib Dems are in government, but | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
a bit more rebellion on the Labour backbenches? There is no political | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
controversy put outside parliament there's quite a lot of controversy | :05:43. | :05:48. | |
about this. My paper has taken an interest in this. It is interesting, | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
it does not feel, it is not a 1950s, three public school boys | :05:55. | :06:03. | |
setting, let us have this deal. The Liberal Democrats and Labour have | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
serious questions. There's going to be a sunset clause that will run out | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
in 2016. The Liberal Democrats, who asked pretty tough questions, have | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
said there are assurances. Ed Miliband did not go to public | :06:21. | :06:21. | |
school. For many English football fans, | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
tonight's World Cup final presents How do you pick | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
between two traditional foes Well, if you're | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
a political obsessive, like these three, you could always back the | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
nation according to how it votes. The website LabourList has produced | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
a political guide to the tournament. At the beginning of the tournament, | :06:38. | :06:52. | |
it was a fairly balanced playing field politically with 15 left wing | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
and 17 right-wing countries. England found themselves isolated in a group | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
with three left-wing countries. That was the least of their problems. | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
There was a clear domination of democratic regimes over | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
authoritarian with only six of oratory and countries making it | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
through to the finals and the only all authoritarian tie was dubbed the | :07:13. | :07:22. | |
worst match of the World Cup. By the second round 16 teams remained. The | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
left had a clear advantage with nine, seven from the right and | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
authoritarian countries all but wiped out. Two representatives | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
remained. Both were beaten by European democracies. By the | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
semi-finals, all was even Stephen. A right-wing Protestant Europe taking | :07:45. | :07:51. | |
on Catholics South America. With one victory apiece, Germany knocking out | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
Brazil and Argentina beating the Dutch, tonight's final repeats that | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
pattern. Who will win? Angela Merkel's Germany or Argentina? | :08:02. | :08:11. | |
We're joined now by Britain's only Labour adviser | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
Should we read political significance in to the fact that the | :08:14. | :08:27. | |
only time England has won the World Cup was under a Labour government? | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
Of course. The problem is we did not qualify for Euro 2008 when it was a | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Labour government. We have had some pretty shoddy results under a Labour | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
government. As someone under the left, are you backing Argentina? | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
Absolutely not. I do not think it has anything to do with politics. It | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
is a bit of fun. People should choose it is Don Hoop plays the best | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
football and the Germans have been fantastic. They were great in 2010 | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
as well. They started this model in 2008 and that is the sort of thing | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
people should be supporting. Who should a Eurosceptic support? I | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
would not say Argentina because that is the country that has tried to | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
seize British sovereign territory within my lifetime. You were not | :09:22. | :09:29. | |
around for the Blitz. Believe it or not, I was not. There is a strong | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
political case to support Germany. They are probably going to win the | :09:34. | :09:45. | |
World Cup with a clear of -- with players of Polish origin. That sort | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
of cultural change they have forced themselves to go through... You talk | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
about them being right wing, but in fact the way that the German league | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
is structured, and I am an expert, is based on ownership. It is very | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
different from the Premier League. It is about football as a usual | :10:09. | :10:17. | |
good. The ticket prices are lower. The fans are involved in running the | :10:18. | :10:25. | |
club. It is a model that all English football clubs should emulate. | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
Germany had a strong football team under centre right governments and | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
centre left governments and a coalition. A strong football team | :10:34. | :10:45. | |
and a strong economy. The Conservative MP who is the arch | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
Eurosceptic wanted to get us out of the European Union and was for a few | :10:50. | :10:51. | |
weeks ago when people were making jokes about Jean-Claude Juncker, he | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
was outraged and said you should not do that, so he could happily support | :10:59. | :11:04. | |
Germany. What was interesting about the authoritarian and democratic | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
regimes, what is great is that the World Cup is run by this open and | :11:10. | :11:21. | |
democratic organisation Fifa. It is similar to the EU in many regards. | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
Two countries led by women. Maybe gender is the thing. We did not win | :11:28. | :11:36. | |
under Margaret Thatcher. There's one big difference with the EU, you | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
cannot flog six Dom Acta gets to go to a European summit. Did you know | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
that Italy won two world cups under Mussolini? Can we draw any | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
conclusions between a political system and the performance of the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
football team? You can draw certain parallels between maybe national | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
cliches, so the Germans are efficient and effective, which might | :12:08. | :12:15. | |
reflect and the English are very polite so we let everyone score | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
first and go into the second round. We put ourselves at the back of the | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
queue. Is England going to qualify for the European? We are going to | :12:25. | :12:36. | |
win the European Championship. The first country Scotland have to play | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
is Germany. What could possibly go wrong? Who is going to win? Germany. | :12:40. | :12:52. | |
Germany. I am going to put a few bob on Argentina. Are you going to be | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
watching? Absolutely. Thank you. This is the last Sunday Politics | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
for the summer. But we'll be back in early autumn | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
and our first programme will be live from Scotland, | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
the weekend before the referendum The Daily Politics is back tomorrow | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
at noon and we'll bring you the last PMQs before the summer | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
on Wednesday morning from 11:30am. Remember, if it's Sunday, | :13:23. | :13:25. | |
it's the Sunday Politics, unless | :13:26. | :13:28. |