01/05/2016 Sunday Politics Wales

Jeremy Corbyn struggles to get a grip on the turmoil inside his

party after Ken Livingstone's comments on Hitler and Zionism.

But will the Labour leader's latest anti-semitism review draw

Despite demands he should be booted out, Mr Livingstone insists he'll

fight to stay in the party, and refuses to apologise for saying

We'll discuss the implications for Labour and its leader.

The row comes just days before Thursday's elections across the UK.

Later in the programme. leader Tim Farron and

Who will get in, and who will be kicked out?

Just a few days before the polls open,

what kind of Assembly are we going to get on Thursday?

The Conservative candidate Zac Goldsmith will be here to set out

why he should be London now. -- mayor.

And with me for the duration - Nick Watt, Janan Ganesh

They'll all be tweeting using the hashtag #bbcsp.

This time last week Jeremy Corbyn was in a pretty good place.

He'd put in a decent performance at PMQs,

the Tories were ripping themselves apart over the EU referendum

and any Labour rows seemed small beer in comparison.

But that was before the Guido Fawkes political blog uncovered

anti-Semitic tweets from a novice Labour backbencher called Naz Shah -

made before she was an MP - and Ken Livingstone called Hitler

in her aid - perhaps not the most helpful of modern

political interventions - leading to his suspension,

along with Ms Shah's from the party and calls for him to be

So what might have been no more than a little local difficulty has

become the biggest crisis in Mr Corbyn's leadership.

Here's Ellie with a reminder of how the story unfolded.

I accept and understand that the words are used caused upset

and hurt to the Jewish community, and I deeply regret that.

Naz Shah was apologising for this - a Facebook post that suggested

She'd shared it and other offensive comments two years ago.

On Tuesday afternoon she resigned as Parliamentary Private Secretary

to the Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell.

The next day a fellow shadow frontbencher was calling

There has to be a suspension and an investigation when something

like this occurs, because it is so serious and it does have such

a knock on effect on people outside of parliament, in the real world.

Moments later, the Prime Minister waded in.

The fact that, frankly, we have a Labour Member

of Parliament, with the Labour Whip, who made remarks about

the transportation of people from Israel to America and talked

about "a solution", and is still in receipt of the Labour whip

After hours of speculation, Naz Shah, who was only elected

last year, was suspended from the Labour Party

But if the Labour leadership had hoped it would draw

a line under the issue, they were sorely disappointed,

because the next day, this happened...

You didn't find that to be anti-Semitic?

You have to remember, when Hitler won his election

in 1932 his policy then was Jews should be moved to Israel.

He was supporting Zionism, before he went mad and ended up

You Nazi apologist, you Nazi apologisist.

Rewriting history, rewriting history!

Go back and check what Hitler did, go back and check what Hitler did.

There was a book called Mein Kampf, you obviously haven't heard of it.

Ken Livingstone was on the phone to another radio station

when he got interrupted by the Labour MP John Mann.

Watched by most of the country's media, they took it inside

and continued their interesting difference of opinion

You dare say, you dare say Hitler supported Zionism.

I think you've lost it, Mr Livingstone.

It's a deliberate, calculated attempt to cause problems,

You certainly shouldn't be an Labour's National Executive.

I've not said Hitler was a Zionist, what I said was his policy in '32

was to deport Germany's Jews to Israel.

John Mann was called to the Chief Whip's office for that

and told he shouldn't have big rows on the telly.

Other MPs voiced their opinion in Parliament instead.

Anti-Semitism is wrong, full stop, end of story.

I am sick and tired of people trying to explain it away -

and yes - I'm talking to you, Ken Livingstone.

Less than an hour later Ken Livingstone was suspended

from the Labour Party, and chased by the media.

Do you want to apologise for causing any offence?

While Ken was indisposed, Jeremy Corbyn was trying not to let

the issue occupy his local election campaigning, even if he had been

forced to suspend one of his closest allies.

It's not a crisis, there is no crisis.

Where there is any racism in the party, it will be dealt with,

I have been an anti-racist campaigner all my life.

I suspect that much of this criticism, that you're saying

about a crisis in the party, actually comes from those

who are nervous of the strength of the Labour Party at local level.

But it has been a damaging week for Labour, whose leadership

promised to get a grip on anti-Semitism.

Ken Livingstone insisted he had nothing more to say.

I've got to do the washing now, doing some work on the pond,

Well, Ken Livingstone didn't stay quiet for long.

In fact yesterday morning he appeared on the London radio

After the broadcast, he had this to say to

If people have been offended, I'm really sorry about that.

But they're not offended because I said the truth,

exactly the same thing as the Prime Minister of Israel said

48 hours earlier, they've been offended by the scrutiny

of embittered old Blairite MPs stirring up all these

accusations of anti-Semitism, when I said on the programme 80

Labour Party Jewish members have a letter in the Guardian

today saying they've never experienced anti-Semitism.

We've had a handful of people who have said things

They have been suspended or expelled immediately by Jeremy.

It is filled with people campaigning against racism and anti-Semitism.

Speaking on BBC One earlier this morning,

the new Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Mark Regev,

said a line has been crossed in the anti-semitism row

Of course people have the right to criticise the government of Israel -

If you follow the very vigorous public debates

we have in my country, you'll know that every

government position is open to debate in the parliament,

in the press, in a very, very robust civil society.

It's not about criticising Israel, it's about demonising

The comments we've heard over the last two or three weeks

that were made public, it has nothing to do

with criticising this or that particular Israeli policy -

it's demonising and a vilification of my country, and its

But Jeremy Corbyn's close ally Diane Abbott told Andrew Marr

that Labour doesn't have a problem with anti-semitism.

The reality is that there have been 12 for incidents in the period

when Jeremy's leader, and some of those remarks predate

200,000 people have joined the party.

What is your message to him now, should he apologise properly?

Have you ever known Ken apologise for anything?

No, but this might be the time to start!

Ken's remarks were extremely offensive.

He was suspended within hours, there's going to be an investigation

and the party will decide what happens to Ken.

We did ask the Labour Party for an interview with someone

from the Shadow Cabinet, but no one was available.

We're joined now from Exeter by the former Labour culture

Welcome to the programme. In your view how big a problem does Labour

have with anti-Semitism? Well, in a week where the Conservatives are

doing terrible damage to our education system, the National

Health Service and are themselves apart on Europe, I would not want to

be on your programme on Sunday talking about this. In a way I agree

with Diane Abbott, I don't think we have a massive problem but the way

we have mishandled this whole crisis, which has been going on for

weeks, although Ken Livingstone has done his best to make it worse, the

way we have handled the crisis has made it seem worse than it is. What

do you make of Ken Livingstone's claim this is just basically a group

of embittered old Blairite MPs trying to undermine the new order?

I've seen you would include you in that.

One of the first people to call for Ken Livingstone to leave the party

was John Lassman, the head of Momentum, on the hard left. I think

the popular left-wing commentator Owen Jones was also very quick to

call for Ken Livingstone's resignation so to try to describe

this as some Blairite... , it looks more like some left on left battle.

I am increasingly of the view Ken Livingstone is a Conservative Party

spy who has been planted in the Labour Party and has now emerged to

do as much damage as he possibly can to the Labour Party. That is

certainly the view of my loyal Labour Party members and activists

and voters who came up to me asking what was going on. They were

outraged by his comments and defeat comes back into the party, they

won't vote for the party. Jeremy has finally gripped it this week with

the inquiry but we have got to act quickly and decisively. Has Jeremy

Corbyn let it drag on? There have been very sensible voices across the

political spectrum in the Labour Party who, for several weeks if not

months, have been raising concerns about this and calling for quite

simple and sensible solutions to wait. I think if they had been

listened to earlier, we could have nipped this problem in the bud. I

hope it has now been gripped but it will be judged on what we do.

Parties are judged on what they do, not what they say. The leadership

have said all the right things, we now need to see action. What is the

difference between Ken Livingstone's attitude to Israel and the Jews and

Jeremy Corbyn's attitude to Israel and the Jews? I'm not quite sure I'm

qualified to comment on either of their attitudes to Israel and the

Jews. All I know is someone who has been a very strong friend of

Palestine, a supporter of the two state solution, the Labour Party has

a proud tradition of believing and supporting Israel as a state with

the right to exist but I think there is a problem on parts of the left.

They don't seem to recognise where criticism... Legitimate criticism

crosses over to hatred for Israel and anti-Semitism. The Labour Party

supports absolutely Israel's right to exist. We always have and I hope

we always will. We also support a Palestinian state and if we allow

ourselves to be diverted from that sensible position which is held by

all progressives all over the world, that will be a very dangerous path

in my view. Are you clear in your mind that Ken Livingstone and Jeremy

Corbyn support Israel's right to exist? I cannot speak for them, I

can just speak for myself. I am not inside their brains and I think

anybody who tried to get inside Ken Livingstone's brain would find that

a very challenging process. So you are not sure your leaders support

Israel's right to exist? The Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn I am sure

100% support Israel's right to exist, but these are questions the

leader can speak for on behalf of himself. The chance would be a nice

thing but we are grateful to speak to you. In your view, I know there

is due process to follow, should Ken Livingstone be rejected from the

Labour Party? Countless Labour Party members and supporters came up to me

on the streets of Exeter yesterday where we are fighting very important

and tough local council elections on Thursday to say that if he came

back, they wouldn't vote for us. If he was brought back, what would be

the reaction amongst your colleagues? I think they would be

dismayed. There is genuine anger about the damage this has done at a

time when the Conservatives should be on the ropes. We should be 20%

ahead in the opinion polls, we are behind, facing very difficult local

elections. We are not being an effective opposition because the

talk is all about turmoil in Labour. Labour people are furious about

that, they want the leadership to get a grip, they want to be an

effective opposition and they want to make sure we win the next

election and the elections across the UK and in London. Thanks for

joining us. Apologies for the quality of the sound. Nick Watt, how

much is this being used by those opposed to Jeremy Corbyn to

undermine his leadership? Yes, certainly the majority of the PLP

don't support his leadership. A significant number of them would

like to get him out, hope to do so after the European referendum. That

had appeared to go away and now we have this crisis so maybe it will

come back but I think those people who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn

are not rubbing their hands and saying doesn't this make him look

awful. They are, as most people in the Labour Party are, horrified by

what this makes the Labour Party look like to the electorate as a

whole and would like to deal with it. If you have two senior figures

running after each other on stairways, whatever the cause, that

looks dreadful for voters but then the issue you are talking about is

supremely sensitive issue of anti-Semitism and the people I talk

to who want to get rid of Jeremy Corbyn just hate what is going and

feel that it is very dangerous and sensitive territory for the Labour

Party. Where does it go from here? It depends whether the party decides

this is just an embarrassment that can be got over. This is when Jeremy

Corbyn's leadership stopped being funny, it is serious and it is not

an accident or the mistake of judgment that meant he didn't get

rid of Ken Livingstone immediately. They are very old allies, they go

back a long way and you have to understand that this juncture of

reality, the perception is so confused. I started my life on the

Trotskyist left. I knew people, in fact I was in Hornsea when Jeremy

Corbyn was on the council there. These people socialise with each

other, marry each other, they never go outside of their very closed self

referring political activist circle. So that picture that Jeremy Corbyn's

first white painted of him standing over a photocopier eating baked

beans, we all knew that person in the 1970s. These people live within

their closed political frame of reference, that's why there was this

horrendous misunderstanding of the significance of what Ken Livingstone

had done and said. When they called John Mann in, they insisted the

whip's office called him in to be disciplined as if there was some

kind of moral equivalence between what Ken Livingstone had said and

what John Mann had said in reprimanding him, that is another

reflection of how out of touch they are. People will wonder why the

Labour Party, which has a long historic track record of fighting

racism, introduced legislation going way back to the 1960s on something

like this, why does it now have to have an investigation into racism

and a code of conduct on racism? Because they have at the very least

turned a blind eye to this kind of behaviour, I would imagine for about

30 years now. I'm only surprised that other people are surprised by

this incident. In the 1980s people like Ken Livingstone were giving

views not just on Zionism but on the foreign policy issues that were

strident to say the least. When Frank Dobson was installed rather

than Ken Livingstone as London mayoral candidate, a huge part of

the soft left took Ken's side, now we have this disproportionate

punishment of John Mann versus Ken. For a pattern of my lifetime there

is an indulgence towards this behaviour and the only surprised

that it has taken this amount of time for it to manifest in a crystal

clear crisis which I imagine makes the average swing voter look upon

Labour as something unpalatable. Will it have an effect on Thursday's

elections? Sadiq Khan is nervous it will have an effect on him as the

candidate for London mayor. He nominated Jeremy Corbyn but has done

a good job of distancing himself from him. And he was one of the

first to criticise him. He did it immediately. He is nervous but it is

probably too late to affect the campaign. OK.

After their disastrous results in last year's General Election,

the Liberal Democrats are hoping for some better luck this week.

Their leader, Tim Farron, says the local elections are utterly

critical for the party's "survival, revival and rebirth",

as they go in defending just over 300 seats in England.

But has Mr Farron's leadership over the past year made any difference

The last general election left the party in a sorry state,

going from 57 MPs down to a measly eight.

The result caused former leader Nick Clegg to resign the very

next day, triggering a party leadership election.

Two candidates went head-to-head - the then Party President Tim Farron

and former Care Minister Norman Lamb.

I am up for this, you are up for this, I am optimistic

but it will take hard work and bloody mindedness.

Over the last year, it's been an uphill struggle for Mr Farron,

having to prove to the political classes that, even with eight MPs,

his party is still a force to be reckoned with.

Although the Lib Dems successfully used their hundred-odd peers

to defeat the Government in the Lords over tax credits, trade

union reform and child refugees,

Lord Rennard's resignation from the party executive

and the legal action over the election of MP

Alistair Carmichael only made the journey more challenging.

And next week, Mr Farron will once again be put

Both the big parties are polling badly, it couldn't be a better time

for a Lib Dem could -- come back, could there? You have summed it up

very nicely. The general election result last May was obviously

devastating, and I am going to argue it was devastating for the country

as it was for the Liberal Democrats. You think of these issues going on

at the moment, the attack on junior doctors, the Balkanisation, even

potential privatisation of our school system across the UK, the

heartless approach to orphaned refugees in Europe, and yet we are

talking about divisions within the Labour Party. They are indeed the

most ineffective official opposition probably in British political

history. What would come back look like? It would look like a 50%

increase in our membership and gaining more council by-election

seats and more votes in those by-elections than any other party,

which incidentally is exactly what is happening. There is a real sense

we are finding people on the doorsteps being very ready to listen

to our message. We have got to fight for attention and to get onto the

stage at all. The results last May but us in that position but I am an

optimistic kind of person. We have an enormous challenge on our plate,

we have a Tory government which is very arrogant, taking for granted

the fact they are in office, being all the more arrogance because their

official opposition is shambolic, and the desperate need for the good

of Britain to be a Liberal Democrat revival. Given that you are doing so

well in local government by-elections, you must hope to do

much better on Thursday than the 331 English councillors you currently

have? I think I would be in dangerous territory if I start

giving you figures but I am increasingly confident we will do

much better than we did last May. The sense I am getting on the

doorstep around the country is positive, people listening. Lots of

people who are progressive, centre-left voters who feel utterly

disappointed with the Labour Party as a movement at the moment. And

many people switched off by the Conservatives, one example of that

was a councillor in Yeovil who is a case worker for the Conservative MP

there who defected to the Liberal Democrats, actually having to give

up her job in the process because she realised that what the Tories

were offering last May is not what they are delivering. We have started

down the road of serious unfairness, taking money away from people with

disability, people dependent on the NHS and care services, and behaving

in an inhuman way towards the child refugees. Will you add to your tally

of council seats? I hope so. I hope so and I couldn't tell you either

way. You have been telling me how good you are doing in the local

government by-elections, why wouldn't you do just as well on

Thursday? I am telling you things that have happened, I'm not capable

of telling you things that will happen. Let me come onto your key

message. Your key message for the local elections is you are pledging

to fight unnecessary cuts to university services, how credible is

that when you spent five years in power with the Tories presiding over

these cuts? We spent five years writing the

economy and protecting front-line services from those cuts. What

happened is over five years we help to get the country in a position

where the books were all but balanced. We got to a crossroads

where we make a decision as a country, do we carry on cutting or

is this the time we say, we have stabilise the financial situation,

now it is the time to go easy and to put money into front-line services?

You will see at this point in time we have a Conservative government

that has chosen to give away tax cuts to the wealthy at a time it is

passing on cuts through local government to social services, to

schools, highways and so on. We say politics is about choosing. At this

point, having got the economy from the brink, this is the point of

government, and if the Liberal Democrats are in government, we

would be choosing not to give tax cuts to the wealthy but supporting

public services such as those run by local authorities. When you were in

power, in government, you close to 350 libraries, closed 350 youth

centres and around 600 sure start centres. Now you are posed as the

anti-cuts party, no one will believe you? When we were in government we

prevented the Conservatives making far greater cuts. One of the great

sadness is for me, or an irony is it has taken the last 12 months of

seeing what the Conservatives do without us to see what a difference

we made. They managed to do that with you in power. And now you are

trying to tell the voters who are against all these cuts, cuts you

presided over in government. I am not Jeremy Corbyn, I won't come onto

this programme and say you never need to make tough decisions in

government. We were very clear over those five years we were acting in

the national interest to balance those books.

Whether you blame Labour or the banks, the mess was there. We

responded responsibly. But one of the issues we should be talking more

about this week but sadly Labour's internal divisions has taken it off

the front pages is the junior doctors scandal. Remember, just over

a year ago it was my colleague Norman Lamb who prevented that

contract being written in the first place. It was only the Conservatives

getting into power on their own without us which meant they pushed

forward on that cart to our national health service. If forcing of

schools to turn into academies, something we blocked. Further cuts

to the police, we blocked, the Conservatives are now putting in

place. We were the party that believed we should live within our

means, in our ability to fund public services on the basis of how wealthy

the country is. Over five tough years the Liberal Democrats helped

balance the books and get us out of the financial crisis. We say you

don't then make more cuts you don't need to. You didn't lose the books,

Mr Farron. You left behind a deficit of about ?80 billion. Let me just

finally ask you this, you have five members in Holyrood, five in the

cabinet is amply, two in the London assembly. Of the seats up for grabs,

three and 31 councillors. If you don't improve in at least a couple

of these areas, does your leadership come under pressure, doesn't have

consequences for you? -- 331 councillors. You set out the case

clearly at the beginning of this interview, in the last couple of

months we have been coming back from a devastating result for us. I don't

expect it to be an overnight success, but my sense is as I have

been knocking on doors is you find a warming towards a Liberal Democrat

message. A sense if you vote Liberal Democrat, makes a difference. That

you have people working on the ground in your local community to

get things done. So you will do better? I just want to know if you

will do better or not? I am no more others since sales and new, but I'm

optimistic about how we will do this week. It feels more positive than a

year ago. With a shocking Tory government, arrogant as it is, and a

Labour opposition so shambolic, this is a moment where the Liberal

Democrats need to recover and I'm hopeful this week we will. Tim

Farron, thank you for your time. Well that's the Liberal Democrats,

what about the Conservatives? Their local election campaign has

been relatively low key these last few weeks,

with the small matter of an EU referendum campaign taking

up most of their time. You could say with Labour

in the spotlight the pressure is off the Conservatives

in the English local elections. These set of seats were last

up for grabs in 2012, when George Osborne's so-called

'omnishambles budget' had hit the headlines and the Tories slumped

to winning only 884 seats, However, Ukip are targeting

Conservative seats and significant losses to Mr Farage's party could be

a sign the referendum campaign isn't What's more, there's been

a lot of friendly fire in the last few months,

with councillors across the country criticising government policy

on a range of issues, including turning all schools

into academies, more directly elected mayors and reductions

in the grants from It is not just the EU

that the Conservative Party And the Conservative's Local

Government Minister Brandon Lewis joins me now from Chelmsford in

Essex. Let me go straight to this business

of forced academies in England. The Tory Cabinet member for Oxfordshire

County Council says she will have to suck it up, but she thinks you have

gone bonkers. Why have you gone bonkers? We haven't. I have to say,

from my own experience, if I look at what I have seen in East Anglia and

Great Yarmouth, the academies have reformed education. It is a good

step forward, about making those schools autonomous, giving them

independence. I understand councillors who have been involved

in education want to continue to be involved in education. We have to do

what is right for the pupils to get that improvement in educational

standards. She is not against academies but against you forcing

every schools to be academies. Plenty others share her concerns.

Why don't you listen to your own people? We are listening to people.

What we are saying is... You have to have a two way conversation.

Academies have the ability to improve education. I have seen this

first hand myself, with vast improvement in the offer of

education for pupils. We have to put the pupils first. This is about

making sure young people today are getting the best education, the best

life chances to move forward and benefit from economics, growth and

jobs for security. This is about making sure we do what is right for

the pupils and to make sure they are getting the best education. We

believe by putting schools in direct control of their destiny is the best

way to give pupils the best opportunity. Whom are academies

responsible accountable? I didn't hear that. Whom are academies

accountable to? They have shown across the country having that

independence, the knowledge of the teachers, the headteachers who run

those schools and know what is best in that area... Who are they

accountable to? It is important they have the opportunity... I asked, to

whom are they accountable? Ofsted will judge schools and Ofsted goes

in and looks at schools and gives a review of what the school's position

is and if it needs to improve, Ofsted is very clear. It is

transparent, there is no secret and is well covered in the press local

and national when schools have a challenge. No local accountability?

I have never seen the school that has had a bad Ofsted report be able

to keep it secret. It is a public thing and therefore there is a clear

responsibility for the people in that school to move things forward,

improve things. And looking at what is right for the pupils. You don't

want now to have parent governors, so even if you get a bad Ofsted

report, how do the parents hold that school accountable if under the

white paper you propose they shouldn't be parent governors?

Actually there can be parent governors. What it says is there

doesn't have to be. There can be parent governors. I have seen

academies in my own constituency and elsewhere where parent governors are

important. Key to this is making sure the school itself, with the

headteachers and the teachers themselves, who know what is best to

move education board, have the opportunity to do that. This is

about looking what is right and best for pupils, to get the best possible

education, the best start in life. Let's look at local government

spending now. You have slashed grants to local government over the

years. Paul Carter, Conservative leader of Kent Council, he says the

tank is now an empty and we really are, to use another analogy,

scraping the barrel. Councils, even Tory councillors are saying under

your government they are now scraping the barrel. Local

government accounts for about 25% of all public expenditure. We have

never been shy about being clear it has to play its part in dealing with

debt and deficit. Over this parliament we will see local

government in a very strong position. What local government can

do and what it is doing when you look Oxfordshire, the Midlands, the

North, East Anglia sharks, is making sure they are efficient. -- East

Anglia. It is under pound cheaper than Liberal Democrat equivalents,

showing really good efficiencies to deliver good quality front line

services. At the same time. Paul is an excellent leader, but Lemi -- let

me be clear, local government surpluses has gone up from 13 to ?22

billion. That is a testament to the efficiencies local governments have

shown. It shows there is capacity to go further and also bearing in mind

the grant from central government is a small part of the finance for

local government. It comes from as a tax, rates and new home tax. Why

does he he now Xavi cuts would have a real impact, are having a real

impact on people and communities? It is a Conservative saying this? We

have to live within our means and make those difficult decisions. They

deliver the best decisions to do that. We have seen those

efficiencies. Councils are ?80 a year cheaper than the Labour

equivalent. Or local authorities, particularly the district councils,

though smaller local councils, as Great Yarmouth is doing, should see

how they can share chief executives to make sure the efficiencies can

deliver good front line services, dozens of councils across the

country from Oxfordshire through to Staffordshire, East Anglia and the

Midlands are doing this. We can see more of that. There is more

opportunity for that. It doesn't just a liver efficiencies by better

front line services. When you have been making these funding cuts, why

have they disproportionately fallen on Labour areas, which tend to be

poorer, and not Tory areas which tend to be richer? Why have you hit

the poorer parts of this country with your cuts? With the best of

respect, I think the framing of that is slightly misleading. Let's get to

the core of what's going on. One of the worst hit councils in the

country has been my own in Great Yarmouth. The reason for that goes

back historically, before they left power Labour cut the fund that hit

councils with the poorest background. And those are the same

authorities that have the highest spending power. They had more to

spend per household than the equivalent Conservative verities.

More needs. Labour led councils like Liverpool, even if they just

collected the council tax, it would be ?500 per house better off

roughly. We need to make sure these efficiencies are there. The average

cup per household in the Tory area is calculated to be ?68 per person

per household by the end of this parliament. The Labour councils per

household is ?340. You are picking on the poorer parts this country. We

also have to bear in mind the spending power in the first places

much higher. Because they had more than they needed to spend on. That

is why their spending power can be up to ?1500 more in some places than

the equivalent smaller district area. They still do have higher

spending power per household. And that is why extra money, an extra

?300 million was put in for those transitional works, because as we

get to the end of this parliament, the change we made to put more money

in with a focus on social care, those authorities start to get more

money coming through again. Thank you for joining us, Brandon Lewis.

It's just gone 11.40am, you're watching the Sunday Politics.

We say goodbye to viewers in Scotland who leave us now

Coming up here in 20 minutes, the Week Ahead.

Hello, and welcome to the Sunday Politics Wales.

By this time next week it'll all be over, or will it?

The election will certainly be done and dusted, but what kind

We'll find out what my panel think in a moment.

Meanwhile there's plenty more to be done to win votes before Thursday.

Cemlyn Davies now on the parts of the campaign other

Who do Welsh voters want to be, or not to be

That's the question we have answered later this week.

Carwyn Jones isn't ready to leave the stage yet, and striking his

best Shakespearean pose at Swansea University the Labour

leader explained why he deserves an encore.

We don't make wild uncosted promises that we know we can't deliver on.

We will put more resources into the NHS, education standards

will continue to rise, and the performance of our economy,

which has been really good over the last few years,

The Welsh Conservatives have their own blueprint,

their leader believes the party can build enough support to blow

We are working to be in government after Mayfest, and be in a position

to implement our key investing in NHS, delivering excellence

in education and quality jobs with decent take-home pay.

If you want real change share in Wales, and to secure that

change, you have to vote Welsh Conservatives.

As we approach the final furlong Plaid Cymru said only two

parties are in the running to win this election.

And, despite the long faces, Plaid remain confident they can

But we'll never be satisfied in coming second.

We are in this race for one reason, and one reason only.

To win and to be the next government of Wales.

Bold words, but then what else should we expect

Yes, Adam Price is that man, writes Plaid MEP Jonathan Edwards

But away from Welsh mythology Nigel Farage was back

The Ukip leader was actually in Caerphilly where he was keen

There's a statue of Tommy Cooper as well, I want to see that.

Ukip are hoping to win their first Assembly seats on Thursday,

and Mr Farage is determined to help his party achieve that aim.

I've come back again and again to Wales, repeatedly,

I'm here today and back again next week.

The Lib Dems are hoping to avoid another puncture

And the party's UK leader has been busy trying to ensure

they still have enough AMs for a five-a-side team

The Liberal Democrats definitely need to recover for

I think the Liberal Democrats have seen an increase in our performance,

it looks like it will carry on to Polling Day.

It could be a very good result for us.

The final score will soon be clear, but with a few days to go the teams

Plenty to chew over there as we move into the final

Valerie Livingston knows all about what makes a good

campaign, Roger Scully knows more than is decent about polling,

and Helen Reynolds, who spends much of her time laughing

Thank you for joining me. Helen, rather than laughing at political

tweets, I guess there is a serious point to be made as well. We've been

predicting for years that this will be the social media election. To

what extent is that true? It is as true as it was last time. I don't

think anything has really changed. It's pretty much like they are

taking their leaflets and sticking them at an line thinking that's

going to work. Everyone is saying they've had a wonderful reception on

the doorstep so it has the blanket effect of nothing less. At the end

of the election debate it seemed that everyone thought to their

leader was the winner. It seems like not a great deal of engagement or

listening. Roger, it is it a problem that this

election has suffered because at the same time there have been some

really big important issues on a UK level from steel, to the EU, to the

Panama papers and the anti-Semitism row, is that overshadowing what is

happening in Wales? Undoubtedly, to a large extent for many voters this

is the default election that has been most overshadowed by UK level

political issues since 2003 when the Iraq war dominated the headlines. It

has created challenges and difficulties all over the parties,

but most of it for the Labour Party and the Conservative Party who are

rather battling against significant bad news stories coming from the

party at UK level. Valerie, you used to work for the

SNP in Scotland is know a thing or two about election campaigns, how do

you try to overcome that as a political party, the fact that maybe

one not getting as much attention as you would like?

You need to focus on your ground more. It's vital that on the day of

the election you get your supporters out.

You have to do a lot of work before the election to identify their

supporters and make sure they turn up to vote for you.

How do you go about doing that? Knocking on doors or more

sophisticated? It is a combination of the two. You

need an army of activists knocking on doors, gathering information. You

can also use computers to analyse that information and work out where

best to deploy your resources. You're saying that Twitter is a

little bit bland, how should they be going about making sure that they

get their messages and support out not just on Twitter but on other

social media as well? The key is to remember that it is

social media not political media. Think about how people interact and

adopt the voice and behaviour. People talk about things they are

interested in, they don't necessarily want to talk about you

was a politician. It's about being fairly clever and targeted. Key word

searches on the things people are talking about, join in those

conversations. Don't just wait for people to find it and be interested.

How much has this campaign changed because of perceptions, to what

extent have the polls shifted during the course of this Welsh election?

We haven't seen huge shifts but we have seen a movement down for the

Conservatives, and a bit of movement up for Plaid Cymru and in the most

recent polls some signs of movement upwards for the Liberal Democrats as

well. Two or three months ago it looks as if the Conservatives were

strong favourites for second place, the most recent pale has Plaid Cymru

second on both fronts albeit not so far ahead of the Conservatives that

coming second could be guaranteed. I guess the campaign, to an extent,

has not gone very well for the Conservatives. But again format

matters beyond their control. Maybe, has it worked in Labour Party macro

favour the steel situation is awful for the people involved but from

Carwyn Jones's point of view he has been able to portray himself as a

statesman. Obviously the big issue is people's

jobs and livelihoods but there is a political dimension to that. Carwyn

Jones has played, I think most people think, that rather well. Last

week, Ken Livingstone and so on have not been particularly helping the

Labour Party, for the party in Wales they must be very much hoping that

the emphasis on this as a Welsh election will mean matters going on

in London do not have too much impact in terms of votes or

supporter turnout. What do you think about the other

parties, Plaid Cymru and Ukip in particular, Plaid Cymru seemed to be

going more towards the centre ground, not being such an

independent socialist party as being the competent party that want to go

into government? I think what Plaid Cymru were trying to get across in

their manifesto was their competence. They had a fulsome

credible plan. Leanne Wood is a very likeable politician at the front and

centre of the campaign in a bid to gain support from all sectors of the

Welsh electorate. What about Ukip then? The initial

fights and backstabbing seem to have, down to you think somebody has

had a word they are or is it the initial interest in the election has

gone into proper campaigning? I think now that we have all the

candidates in place it has died down. Ukip seems to whether that

storm quite well, it didn't seem to have a hugely negative impact on how

they were polling. It is interesting that we see Nigel Farage here but we

haven't really seen any of the other UK leaders making prominent

appearances in Wales. He is a huge asset to Ukip.

Let's take a quick break now and bring you a world exclusive.

Graphics on election night have come a long way

On Thursday evening and into Friday I'll be crunching

the figures on BBC One and S4C and bringing you the analysis

Let's take a look at your first chance to see this year's BBC Wales

election graphics located, where else, but in

Hello, welcome to BBC Wales's election virtual reality studio

The authorities have kindly allowed us to use the space.

We'll be looking at what the key data is telling us ahead

First of all, we see how things looked after the 2011 election.

I open up the floor to reveal our Virtual Chamber.

Now, clearly, as we know, Labour the largest party,

They didn't cross that winning line here.

The Conservatives are the second largest party, the main

Plaid Cymru are in yellow here rather than the traditional green.

They are 11, and the smallest party in the last Assembly, the Liberal

Just get rid of the members here, because as we know, we haven't

Let's have a look at how the parties faired over the last

We look back to the first elections in 1999,

Basically Labour have cemented their position.

There is always this interesting fight between Plaid Cymru

and the Conservatives over who can make it into second place.

And then the Liberal Democrats have always been in fourth position,

This is the latest opinion poll showing the constituencies

here from Cardiff University and ITV Wales.

Yes, Labour is still the largest party with 33% of the vote,

but much lower than they have been before the last election.

The battle for second place between Plaid Cymru

and the Conservatives is still going on, but this time,

apparently, Plaid Cymru have overtaken the Conservatives.

The new kids on the block, Ukip, got 15% of the vote ahead

of the Liberal Democrats who down to 8%.

This is just an opinion poll, so we don't know.

What would that mean in terms of seats?

Well, my new toy, this is a coalition builder

that shows you that yes, Labour would be the largest

party with 28, but still shy of a majority.

13 for Plaid Cymru, ten for the Conservatives,

the new group in the Assembly, Ukip, on seven and the Lib

That's what the Chamber would look like.

But what would the Government looked like?

Let's take them over here and show you what the Labour Party might

try to do, which is form a government on its own.

But they are short of that overall majority so they might bring

in the two Liberal Democrats, according to this opinion poll.

They are still short of that overall majority.

So they might go back to what they did in 2007 and bring

in Plaid Cymru that gives them plenty of Assembly members

to get their programme of government through.

But how difficult would it be for them to work together?

The other scenario, of course, is that one of these

parties work together, but if you look at the political

policy differences and ideological differences between these parties,

that is hell of a job to form any sort of official coalition.

I can hear the politicians shouting at the screen, why are

We haven't even counted to the votes yet!

Absolutely, that is just based on one opinion poll.

We have to wait until after Thursday to know exactly

There we are. We love our little election ties. I have two apologise

to Roger for saying it was just an opinion poll! Apologies there.

Before we go on to talk about what might happen after Thursday we want

to talk a bit more about social media. That issue of everyone

sending out the same brand messages. We have one example here from

Labour. But all the parties are guilty of this. What's wrong with

that? There's nothing wrong with it if it

comes with personality and insight, for those people who are undecided

they want to vote for a person, a human being. If it feels like a

sound bite or a party line, then it's like tumbleweed. You can see

from these kind of tweets they get limited engagement. If they are

shaded or liked, you can have a look at those and see that these are

people who are already allowed to the party.

We have another example of something a little bit different. Here we are

in North Wales launching our health manifesto. Only the Conservatives

are committed to... Why is it so special having Andrew

RT Davies on social media not on the television?

This is a little insight into who he is. You can see his body language.

On Twitter you can only post a 22nd clip, most people don't have time to

watch a whole election debate they just want a little taste. This is

like looking through the door because it is a long rectangle

shape, but it's still good. I'd rather see him and read his

words. Is that important to see a bit of the person to see what a

Twitter looks like rather than just the words?

Yes, politicians have a bit of a job gaining trust with the public, they

want to see that it is you saying it in your own voice. They want to see

your body language and relate to you as a person as well as someone who

represents ideals. The last one we've got is a bit

different. This is the former Green party leader in Wales.

Is this what you're looking for? I like this. It's showing a bit of

personality. You either like her or you don't. It's creating an emotion,

some form of response whether good or bad. That is the main point was

not give a little bit of yourself. That treat is a good example because

she engages with people. They don't just expect to see press releases.

Barry, you've worked with political parties is it difficult to get them

to understand the importance of political social media? Some

politicians use it as a told to engage but others see it as a tool

for broadcast that is where it goes wrong. If you're not listening

that's where it begins to get a bit tedious. Looking ahead to after

Thursday, your latest polls there, we know that during the campaign all

the parties have said we want to go for a majority to varying degrees,

but what you think is the most likely scenario is macro and putting

you on the spot their! Well, what happens after the election depends

on two things, the numbers, they can impose their own logic. And then

secondly, which parties will be able to work with each other

realistically. It looks likely that we will have no party very close to

a majority. Labour's almost certainly going to be the biggest

party but it will depend how far short of a majority they are. In the

current Assembly Labour have exactly half the seats, they have

essentially been able to have either the Liberal Democrats or Plaid Cymru

as potential partners to push them into a majority. They have been able

to play the Liberal Democrats and Plaid Cymru off against each other.

It looks like the possible configuration is much more limited

in the next Assembly. Are you assuming that any government

is going to have, the Labour Party, leading it. They are not going to be

any situation where labour is down to 24 or 25 seats, that's not the

cards? Even if Labour are down to 24 it

doesn't look at the moment as if there is a politically feasible

alternative coalition that could reach a majority. You'd need to

seize say the Conservatives and Ukip performing at the abhorrent or

beyond the upper end of expectations to get anywhere close to 30 or 31

seats that they would need. -- performing at the upper end or

beyond. At the moment those parties don't look as if they are in the

same sort of place. Valerie, we know that one of the

successes of the SNP in 2007 as the minority government was to look

competent in government. That helped them in normally, is that potential

prize enough to draw in maybe Plaid Cymru and the Tories to work

together should the maths add up? I think it's very unlikely this time

round that the Conservatives would go into a coalition with Plaid

Cymru. Particularly given the currently do ship of both parties.

They might prefer to really push Labour and make it difficult for

Labour to get their programme for government through without

significant concessions to the opposition parties.

I assume that both leaders will still be there for the duration of

the next Assembly? Leadership elections do seem likely

over the next year or so but politically, for Plaid Cymru, any

leader of Plaid Cymru to say I will eat my party into a coalition with

our archenemies, the Conservatives, seems to be very unlikely.

So minority Labour for the next five years do you think something

different? Expect and mix, really, isn't it?

I can't imagine there is going to be a huge amount of change.

In terms of how we've seen things changing over the course of this

election, did you think that Labour is more comfortable than it has been

in the past carrying on as a minority government or are they

depending on the numbers, seeking some form of support, they don't

have that many members from the Liberal Democrats to draw on for

support? Well, they may be in a situation,

whether they are comfortable with it is the only feasible option. It

looks as if the range of possible governments after the election may

well be limited to simply Labour minority or Labour Plaid Cymru

coalition. To have a coalition you need to sides wishing to enter a

partnership. It could well be that Labour are, in a sense, condemned to

government. They are the largest party, and they may be in a

situation where there is no possibility for them to form a

majority coalition which could make life difficult for them.

In terms of Ukip, if we are expecting them to be in the

Assembly, how does that change things?

It will be fascinating for Assembly watchers. How long does it last?

There are huge issues with discipline within Ukip and we are

expecting a leadership election. No matter how many are elected on

Thursday I don't think they will be Ukip Assembly members by the end.

Certainly a big week ahead for Welsh politics.

Don't forget about our special programmes after the polls close

on Thursday, with minute by minute coverage of the results

That's from 10.30 on Thursday evening.

in the Mayoral election on the screen now.

And further information is available on the BBC London website.

What will Labour's anti-Semitism row mean for the party's election

Is Jeremy Corbyn facing a possible challenge to his leadership?

And what are the Leave and Remain teams plotting for the

Elections to the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly,

English local areas, and London now. Labour is fighting in all of these

areas. How do we judge Mr Corbyn's party performance? I think you need

a symbolic victory in London. In many ways it will matter less than

doing well in English local council elections. Councils are your

campaigning base for a general election in four years' time. It is

a much more sexy office, the London mayor. It's the Khan wins I think it

gets him out of trouble, gets Joe Clee Corbyn out of some trouble,

deservedly or not. The result I'm beginning to think might end up

being historic is in Scotland. If the Conservatives finished second, I

think it establishes two things. One, the idea that a left-wing

Labour Party can recover some of the ground lost to the SNP, a very

popular idea in the leadership contest last summer, will suffer.

And more significant is if the Tories finished second, it will

confirm Ruth Davidson as the most interesting, maybe the most talented

politician of the Next Generation and there will be a lot of pressure

from the London branch of the Tory to tempt her down. To take away the

only winner the Tories might have had in two generations question what

yes. She could be a potentially compelling UK wide figure. At the

end of the day, if Jeremy Corbyn holds on to London, which the polls

tell us he will, then he is OK. I think the Tories must be praying

that he will be OK. He is the gift that goes on giving. Is it in the

Tory interest the Tories not to hold on to London? I think it is in Tory

interests that Jeremy Corbyn survives as leader, no one else

could be as good further Tories except maybe the Shadow Chancellor.

The people who are not paying terribly close attention to the

detail of this row, even though they must be aware of the vague issues,

there is a conclusion beginning to surface that the Labour Party is

being done by crazy people. If they choose the Shadow Chancellor, who is

a much harder character, would be a much more muscular version of Jeremy

Corbyn and probably less incompetent looking, more impressive as a

personality, that means that the hold of the hard left of Labour will

be embedded for a political generation, another three or four

years. That would be a different problem for the Tories, because they

wouldn't just be able to make him look Ludogrets. How has it come

about? This is the first electoral test for the government. A year on

from the last election and usually we judge them by how is the

government faring? How is it beginning to lose about? And yet the

yardsticks all seem to be about Labour, not the Tories. They have

been about Labour for the last 72 hours, since they got into this

crisis over the row on anti-Semitism. Before that the only

thing we were talking about is the referendum. The reason we are not

focusing so much on the Conservatives on how they are doing

is David Cameron hasn't taken any interest in these elections on

Thursday. He is absolutely focused on the EU referendum. For him it is

a matter of life or death, whatever he says. He loses the referendum on

the 23rd of June and that is the end of his premiership and the of George

Osborne and the right life of the party will be in the descendants.

But Thursday, what is about Thursday is still London election is the

least significant election. When you want to know how is Labour going to

do in the general election you need to look at Scotland and the English

locals and Wales. But London will be symbolically the most significant

election, because if as we assume Sadiq Khan wins, as Janan was

saying, that will take the I've got a victory my back pocket box and

Jeremy Corbyn will for the moment soldier one. You mentioned how these

elections, as important as they are, have been overshadowed by the EU

referendum on the 23rd of June. The Leave and Remain campaign have been

putting out commercials, let's take a look.

At the end of the war, Britain created the NHS.

It protects us throughout our lives - but it's in danger.

Remaining in Europe will create an extra 790,000 UK jobs by the time

There we go. The first one to Leave and second Remain. The poll suggests

they are winning the argument on the economy. But private polling

suggests the NHS and immigration do well for Leave. What's going on

here? They've looked at private polling and concluded on the economy

Remain has a lead which is more or less insurmountable. On immigration

Leave have an insurmountable lead. Rather than engage in a futile

attempt to win back credibility on economy or immigration is better to

spend everyday folks think the debate on your home territory. That

is why I think if on the ballot in seven weeks' time the average voter

sees the question as, what is the best way controlling immigration?

Leave Will win. If the question is how do you preserve economic

stability then Remain will win. By this time next week when the

Thursday election results will have been analysed and so on, the EU

referendum campaign starts proper. All the way until June 23. Does the

Remain side not have a problem, it seems to have fired a lot of its

ammunition already? It does, with that 200 page Treasury report. We

have around two of the Treasury report. Ten years ago it was looking

at the long-term consequences of an exit from the European Union. There

is another report to go. That is the immediate consequences, which will

basically say there will be a mighty recession and the pound would go

through the floor. But remember, we have two phases of the campaign. We

have about two and a half or three weeks after the local elections. Up

until that point government can put out any election document it wants,

it can get civil servants to write in favour of the European Union. 28

days, from the end of May until the 23rd of June it means ministers can

say what they like but they cannot use government machinery and

government publications. You will watch a great blast from the

government side in the three weeks after the local elections.

The remaining side have made claims about what the jobs will be, but

this doesn't surprise me at all. I find the British the most resilient

people against being threatened amongst any in the world. During the

election campaign, every time Nicola Sturgeon said we are going to lock

David Cameron out of Downing Street, I heard a chorus from British people

saying oh yeah. Last night was the famous White House correspondents

dinner, it is a time for comedy, comedy acts even from the

politicians. The president began by talking about his visit here. Let's

listen. Even some foreign leaders,

they've been looking ahead, Last week Prince George showed up

to our meeting in his bathrobe. Although, while in

England I did have lunch with Her Majesty The Queen,

took in a performance of Shakespeare, hit the Links

with David Cameron. Just in case anybody is still

debating whether I'm black or not... The president there showing he has

great comedic timing as well. He can be a stand-up man when he steps down

from the White House. You have been to the Westminster dinner, it is not

quite on the same scale. It is not. The most important thing this year

is George Osborne, the year before it was Ed Miliband, their speech is

on the record but not filmed. George Osborne delivered what was generally

perceived as a very good joke because he told jokes at his own

expense. This quite funny one about now I am on the 52-macro diet, I had

to eat my words after the Budget. You are now off to Newsnight so we

whipped together to get you a farewell present and there it is.

But you only get that if you win a competition! That is how kind we are

to you. Enjoy it because you won't get anything like that on Newsnight.

The Daily Politics will be back on Tuesday at midday on BBC Two,

and I'll be back here on BBC One next Sunday at 11

We will have all of these local election results.

Remember - if it's Sunday, it's the Sunday Politics.