23/11/2015 Victoria Derbyshire

Hello. It's Monday, it's 9.15, I'm Joanna Gosling in for

Victoria Derbyshire - welcome to the programme.

Are British military air strikes against so-called Islamic State

Susan Nattrass Bennett and I say that we need to invest in efforts in

diplomacy. We know that the war in Afghanistan failed. Let's not go

there again. Isil are a threat to our society and we cannot rely on

other countries to protect that interest. Emily Thornberry. I am a

pragmatist and I want to hear what David Cameron has to say because we

need to have a plan. We cannot bomb a country from 30,000ft into a

Western-style democracy. Our history in the Middle East shows that. I am

Alex Salmond. I am not convinced that adding to the many countries

already bombing Syria can help bring about the peace which we need to

tackle terrorism. In the last few minutes,

David Cameron has been speaking from Paris, where he is meeting the

French president Francois Hollande. I firmly support the action which is

that Holland has taken and it is my firm conviction that Britain should

do so, too. Brussels is still in a state

of lockdown, with fear Schools, the metro system

and all public buildings remain Residents tell us how

they are coping. Plus, we talk to people who have had

cancer not just once I just tried to keep dying and keep

myself busy all the time. They were only four or five when it happened.

But I always use the words. I used the words cancer, tumour. It is

talking to the people around you and saying, yes, would you like to come

into the surgery because we have a terminal diagnosis...?

We are on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

Throughout the morning we'll keep you up to

date with the latest breaking news and developing stories.

We'll be live in Paris and Brussels, which remains in lockdown

Plus we'll tell you about Nola, one of the last remaining white rhinos

It means there are now only three white rhinos left in the world.

Do get in touch with us to share your views

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First though - it looks increasingly likely that

Britain will take military action against so-called Islamic State

David Cameron is in Paris this morning meeting

the French President Hollande to discuss the next step in what is now

The PM has said he will seek parliamentary approval this week

for Britain to launch airstrikes against IS in Syria.

The use of chemical weapons by the Assad regime is unacceptable

and the world cannot stand by in the face of that.

And when we have the unique capabilities

to help avert a massacre, then I believe the United States

That means that a terrorist attack is highly likely.

But there is no intelligence to suggest that an attack is imminent.

In the past few minutes, the Prime Minister has been speaking

in Paris about his plan for taking on IS in Syria.

Standing alongside the French President, Francois Hollande,

he said that Britain and France would step up their cooperation

on counter-terrorism, including greater intelligence-sharing.

We face a shared threat and we must share information and intelligence

to better protect ourselves from these brutal terrorists. The UK and

France or already doing this but today we have agreed to step up our

efforts even further and work even more closely with our European

neighbours. In particular we must do more to tackle the threat of

returning foreign fighters. This requires a para-European effort. We

need a stronger external European order to protect our security more

effectively with systematic security checks and greater sharing of data

among the member states. We must without further day finally agree

the rules which will enable us to share up as in Jenin records. It is

frankly ridiculous that we can get more information from countries

outside the EU than we can from each other. And we must do more to crack

down on the trade in illegal firearms to stop them getting into

the hands of terrorists who are determined to wreak such misery.

Really keen to get a sense from you this morning if you'd

support military action against so-called Islamic State in Syria.

Andrew Bridgen, a Conservative MP who voted

against military intervention in 2013 but now supports it.

Labour MP Emily Thornberry says she is still undecided.

Natalie Bennett - she's not an MP, but she leads

the Green Party, who are against military intervention.

And joining us from Dublin is Alex Salmond MP, the former leader

of the SNP, who is now their foreign affairs spokesperson.

Last week the party said it was "prepared to listen" to the case for

Thank you all for joining us. Andrew Bridgen, you voted against this in

2013 and now you are supporting it? I did not vote against it, I voted

against strikes on Assad. He was a despicable regime but he was not the

worst protagonist in the theatre. And he was never a threat to UK

interests. When we have tried regime change across the Middle East, it

has had fairly disastrous results. Emily, your party leader is against

air strikes but you could be persuaded? I think that we have had

such confusion in relation to this. I think you're right, if we had

agreed with Cameron at the time, we would have been bombing Assad. Now

it seems the proposal is to bomb the other side, perhaps in support of

Assad. And so it is not a question of not being decided yet. I want to

be open-minded but I want to see a complete plan. I do not think that

sound bites about, we have got to stand up for British interests, we

have got to start bombing, is enough. We need to have a complete

plan. Even if we were to take out Isis, what would happen in relation

to the vacuum? What would feel it? Can we even defeat Isis just with

bombing from 30,000ft? Do we need ground troops? If so, who will they

be? What is the result of this going to be? Are we going to allow the

Iranians in, the Russians, to take over part of Syria? What will

happen? Does this mean you are minded one way or another? No, it is

not fair to say there are lots of MPs who are undecided. There are MPs

who are trying to keep an open mind but who are saying to Cameron, you

need to persuade us by showing us a complete plan. Everyone agrees that

in principle we should try to get rid of Isis. The question is, how do

you do it? To say simply you must support bombings or not is not a

complete answer. We have so many experiences in the Middle East which

show it is not enough to bomb and go. If it is a clear threat to UK

interests. Our intelligence services have already thwarted seven plots

this year, one in the last four weeks. If you get rid of Isis, where

do the Sunnis go next? The Americans have already been bombing. They have

had 8000 strikes on 16,000 targets. And over that period the number of

Isis fighters has been estimated at 20,000. It has not been reduced. We

have actually seen the number of foreign fighters owing to join Isis

estimated at 30,000 where it was 15,000. This is a tactic which the

Americans have been operating for some time and it has failed. We need

to look to how we can find a final peaceful settlement in Syria which

does not involve Assad, which gets rid of this hideous organisation

Isis. But we need to think what comes next in Syria. That means

focusing on diplomacy, the International Syria Support Group,

which involves different countries. They have had two meetings. It is a

start. And yet Britain, we are cutting back on our diplomatic

effort at a time when we should be investing in diplomacy as the only

way forward. Alex Salmond, what is the answer for you? I agree with

much of what has been said. I will listen to what the Prime Minister

has got to say but we are not convinced that adding to the bombing

campaign is the answer. There is no shortage of people bombing Syria at

the present moment. Everybody and their auntie is humming somebody in

Syria. What there is a shortage of is a coherent policy to bring about

peace in Syria in a rapid timescale. We have just heard from

the Prime Minister in Paris. Not a word did he say about taking the

real fight to Isis, countering their propaganda. This is a death cult,

and it should be that Western values have more of an influence in the

propaganda. There has been not a word about intercepting their

websites like the activist groups ANONYMOUS has been doing. Not even a

word about intercepting the sources of finance, without which Daesh

could not function. All of this Cameron's obsession about bombing is

not a strategy, it is a replacement for a strategy about how to take the

real battle to Daesh. I think we will have a statement from the Prime

Minister in response to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee report. I

think that does need to be comprehensive, it needs to be more

than just sending a couple of Tornados. I would like to see France

invoke an five of the Nato charter. We do need troops on the ground as

part of a coordinated response. On a strikes, Howard Britain joining them

actually change anything? We have got special forces or so who could

be sporting for targets. On the ground? We have got special forces

on the ground. At strikes alone will never be enough. The second-largest

force in Nato is in fact the Turkish, they are Muslim troops and

they are in theatre. That could be a solution. Would you back British

forces on the ground beyond special forces? Probably not at this stage

but we need to see where it goes the Russians going to bring in troops on

the ground? And if they do so, will it be in partnership with the West?

And what will the price before that? At the moment we are not supposed to

be trading with Russia. Russia is supposed to be a pariah state. Is

that going to be part of the deal? Also, of course our priority has to

be protecting our own citizens. So why at this time is the Government

thinking about cutting back on the police? Bernard Hogan-Howe has said

the Met will not be safer. What worries me is that our Prime

Minister seems to think that bombing is the solution. And absolutely it

is not. It has to be part of a much wider strategy. And we do not have

any answers to any of the questions we are answering. Andrew is an

honest man and he has outlined that bombing campaign on its own is never

enough. You have to have troops on the ground. He is right to say that

two years ago of course, David Cameron wanted to bomb the other

side in Syria. It gives a clue as to the difficulties when he says, use

Turkish troops. When Turkey entered this theatre, they said they were

going to bomb Daesh but spent most of their time bombing the Kurds, who

are our allies. This gives an insight into the some of the

difficulties which Andrew has put his finger on but which the Prime

Minister clearly has not thought through. So, what would your

instinct be, then, Alex Salmond? Is it to be a good ally, as David

Cameron puts it, and support these air strikes?

We think the right thing is to bring forward an urgent plan for a

ceasefire for non-Daesh forces in Syria. Ringing about peace is the

way to tackle both the refugee and the terrorism crisis which is

afflicting Europe and elsewhere at the present moment.

I think Alex Salmond is right in terms of Turkey is a real issue

there. The Kurds have been some of the most effective fighters on the

ground against IS, and they have weaned trying to attack them. And I

think Emily is right about the issue of police cuts, but there is also

the issue of cuts to the Foreign Office and the diplomatic corps.

It's spending is already down 30%. In the current Autumn Statement,

we're looking at being forced to cut another 25-40%. These are the people

who should be working with other diplomatic corps, and yet we are

cutting back the investment are just the point when we should be

investing and supporting that work. And one element we haven't raised

is, where does IS get its money? What are we doing about the banks

and the individuals who are funding this organisation? What are we

doing, what is happening in relation to Saudi Arabia and their

relationship, or the relationship of some individuals there with IS. The

answer that David Cameron gave to that very question, both to Jeremy

Corbyn and myself, was to say that we are on subcommittee which is

looking into it. So why is there so much urgency from David Cameron to

join a bombing campaign which everybody knows will make no

difference, and so little urgency in interrupting the financial flows

which actually could cripple this terrorist organisation. Bombing is

so much more dramatic. He can go on television and be a Great War

leader, and talks about Churchill and so on, but if we want to be

effective, sometimes being effective is not as glamorous, but can work

better stop we are bombing IS in Iraq now. That got through the House

of Commons. If they are a threat to our country, it is logical we would

go and attack them wherever they are, whether in Iraq, Syria or

elsewhere. That makes military sense. I am not an enthusiast for

bombing campaigns. , but nonetheless, the situation in Iraq

is that ground is conceded by Daesh that will then be occupied by the

Iraqi government or the Peshmerga Kurdish forces. You know who will

fill the vacuum. In Syria, you don't know who will fill that vacuum. And

that as indicated earlier is a real difficulty without a reliable ground

ally. David Cameron has said that he will be putting forward the case

were defeating IS. He has not said he is going to be outlining the

wider issues on what happens in Syria. I think the Prime Minister

will have to address some of those issues, and he will certainly be

questioned on it in the chamber. This week we have got the economic

situation to be dealt with. Next week, I think it will come. You

think there will be a vote next week? I think there will. So you

will all have to decide. You will say yes? Yes. I need to hear a

proper plan, I don't want to hear just about air strikes, it needs to

be part of a wider plan, we haven't heard the answers to legitimate

plans. The Green party will be a no, Caroline Lucas, the Green MP. We are

now entering the 15th year of the war on terror, it is 12 years since

George W Bush declared it won. The tactics have failed, and we need to

take a new approach. Alex Salmond, will you be yes or no?

As of now we are not convinced unless we hear something sensible

and coherent, we will say no. And should Labour MPs have a free vote?

I don't want to saddle of a broken record, but we need to have an

understanding of what the Prime Minister is asking us to sign up to

before we are in a position to say yes or no. But what is wrong with

asking if Labour MPs will have a free vote or not? Hilary Benn has

been quite clear that we want to have a coherent plan. What is

happening in Vienna is important, but there needs to be a plan for the

future of Syria. The bombing campaign in itself is not enough.

David Cameron will have to -- Jeremy Corbyn will have to offer his MPs a

free vote, he is so far from what the public are thinking on terms of

this. It is very sad to ascend into petty party politics on a matter of

world security. We need to be able to have a proper discussion and to

be able to consider these matters calmly and clearly, and not be

sniping at each other. Your leader said that he objected to police

shooting a terrorist dead. No, he didn't. This is so much more than

party bickering between Labour and Tory. For six months, I have been

international affairs spokesperson for the SNP. I have heard both sides

trying to convince people to support their campaign, and they have been

too busy occupied trying to divide the Labour Party, than trying to

produce a coherent plan for peace in Syria. It has to come to an end,

Andrew. And when you come to questions of war and peace, it

should always be a matter of voting on conscience.

You are asking your local MP to make a critical decision affecting lives.

That should always be a free vote. Emily, your final thought? The

Labour Party stopped the bombing of Assad last time. If we hadn't

stopped it, presumably buys this would be even struck the -- Isis

would be even stronger. The popular view one Jeremy Corbyn on the Swan,

a poll indicates that 17% of voters trust him to keep them and their

family safe. Would you be prepared to back him with a No vote on this

when it appears public opinion is against that position? I am going to

make a decision on the basis of what I think is right for the country,

and Jeremy will be doing the same. It is a rich of Alex Salmond accused

the Conservatives of divisive politics. Normally in the hazard

Commons, the SNP will take a slight against Scotland and disagree on

everything. We are talking about serious issues today. Try to rise to

the occasion. You did really well two years ago when you voted with

your principle. Try to find yourself in a principle to rise to this. When

IS have an attack in Edinburgh, will that stir you into action? That is

the sort of remark that belittles this. I have tried outline, as have

others on this panel, real ways where we could do something useful

in Syria to bring about peace, real ways to tackle Daesh as a terrorist

death cult, and all you have done in the last few minutes both to the

Labour Party and the SNP is ridiculous jibes which have nothing

to do with the serious issues that we are going to have to face as

members of parliament over the next two weeks. And this highlights the

fact that we have a concern over people's trust in politics, and

Andrew, you are not helping. That is where we are. Thank you all for

sharing your views. Stephen has e-mailed to say, bombing is not

enough without boots on the ground. We need foot action and bombs

together. Do stay in touch with your thoughts on the discussion and the

wider issues there. Three woman who have been diagnosed

with cancer several times - in the case of one, ten times -

have been talking to Victoria The white rhino faces imminent

extinction as one of only four First it's

the main news this morning. David Cameron has been holding

talks in Paris with The Prime Minister says he will seek

parliamentary approval this week for Britain to join US-led air

strikes against Islamic State I firmly support the action

President Hollande has taken to strike Isil in Syria, and it is my

firm conviction that Britain should do so too.

More raids across Brussels where police arrested 16 people overnight

thought to have links to the Paris gun and bombing attacks.

The key suspect, Salah Abdeslam, wasn't among those detained.

Schools, universities and the metro system in

the Belgian capital are still closed as the Belgian capital remains on

two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet of maritime patrol

aircraft are some of the measures David Cameron is to

announce in the Government's defence and security review later today.

The Budget is increasing by ?12 billion.

Let's turn to the sport now with Jessica,

including the latest news ahead of the Davis Cup final in Belgium.

The British team will travel to Belgium this morning after delaying

their flight by 24 hours, because as you just mentioned, Brussels is on

high alert and on security lockdown. The competition itself is in Ghent,

about 35 miles away, and there have been assurances by the organisers

and the world governing body the ITF that the competition will go ahead

safely as planned on Friday. Our tennis correspondent Russell Fuller

will have more on that later in the morning.

We will have a fantastic interview with boxer Anthony Crolla. Just 11

months ago he was in hospital with a fractured skull. This weekend he

became WBA lightweight champion. We will be hearing from him and his

remarkable journey to success. And a couple of football lines.

Leicester City fans will have a spring in their step this morning.

They are top of the Premier League, and Jamie Vardy scoring in ten

consecutive Premier League games is a record. It equals rude van

Nistelrooy's record. We will have more on that at ten o'clock.

Jessica, thank you. Next we meet the people who've had

cancer not just once, but three, Cancer charities have told this

programme there needs to be more support so those who do face

a second cancer can be diagnosed If you've had cancer once,

there's only a 5% chance of you getting a different kind

of cancer in the future. But when it does happen,

how do people deal with what can be Emma Hannigan is currently being

treated for cancer for the tenth time -

she's had cancer in her breasts, Isobel Bradley has been diagnosed

with cancer four times - the first time it was cervical cancer and then

she had a tumour of her appendix. And Nicola Jeffrey-Sykes has been

diagnosed with cancer twice - each time it spread

from breast to lymph nodes, colon, They've been telling

their stories to Victoria. Can I start by asking you first

of all, when you are first treated for cancer,

did you worry about it coming back Certainly for me, I didn't think

it was going to come back. I had also had preventative to

surgery before I was diagnosed because I

carried I carried the BRCA1 gene. So I had preventative surgery

thinking I would never get cancer, so I definitely felt that when I had

had it once, I had ticked that box I didn't think it was

going to come back. I had the surgery,

I had the radiotherapy, and then I You just try and forget about it

and keep going. I was quite confident that it wasn't

going to come back, especially as they had found it had

travelled to nearly all of the lymph nodes and I had had to have a second

operation quite quickly afterwards. I then found out that it

had travelled to the bowel. All that was treated quite quickly,

so I thought, yes, See you all pretty much thinking,

yes, I can crack Emma, you are still only 43

and you have been diagnosed with I suppose it has become part

of my life. I always want to stress I am not

here to frighten people by saying I have had it ten times

and that is to scare people. The way I have always looked

at it if I have had it ten times I am having chemotherapy

at the moment. I am being treated currently but I

feel good. Yes, and over the ten years

of cancer treatment, in fact, not only have you raised your two

teenage children, but you also have Some people find God

when they are sick. I found writing

and I've written ten books to date. I hope it is not going to be

a book for every cancer diagnosis I have definitely found solace

in that. It has been good for spleen

venting and it is amazing. My body is going through cancer

but my mind actually isn't. Isobel,

the third time you were diagnosed At that point you had planned

this huge three-month holiday to wonderful places and you decided

to continue with that rather than I went for the biopsy the day

before I was due to travel to Thailand and Australia and I was

just so determined to still go on the holiday, that I said to the

gynaecologist, "Whatever you tell me, whatever the results, I am still

going on my holiday because I am going to be poorly again,

I am going to need this holiday I think it was the right thing to do

and ten days after, into the holiday, I got the call from

the gynaecologist with the results of the biopsy to say, "I am afraid

to say you have squamous cell carcinoma," which was the cancer I

had the first time 12 years earlier. It is vaginal cancer that

I got six years ago. My partner at the time said

we need to fly back home. I am going to need this holiday

and it is going to ruin everybody's Christmas and New Year

so I am going to keep going." I put it in a box and I carried

on on holiday for three months. You have cancer now but you

are not having treatment now. Why?

I am not. I have stage two cancer

in the tissues. Because I am not going for tests or

anything and I am not having any treatment, I am just carrying

on with my life because I have to. But why are you not

having treatment? They said there is

nothing they can do. I have had all the radiotherapy I

can have. I can't have any more surgery

so they just said carry on. It is a matter of time as and

when these cells develop. So I am just enjoying my life,

living it to the full, literally. I keep myself busy and I think

that is how I have coped with it. Just keep yourself busy, make sure

you have something in the diary to Whatever it is,

even if it is just a coffee with I think, Nicola,

you had almost got to the five years since having cancer milestone when

you got the news that you had it. It was four years, 11 months

and one week, so it was literally So much so they were ready to

take me off the oral drugs. I had had chemo, I had had

radiotherapy, I had had surgery and they were ready to say you can come

back on an annual checkup instead Your breast surgeon says it is

not painful but for me it was. So I asked them again

and again to please retest and eventually they admitted that yes

they had found three more cells. At that point, do you think

I can't deal with this? Or are you thinking I have no

choice but to deal with this? Yes, it was I have no choice

but to deal with this. I run some small businesses

and it was just unfortunate that the type of cancer -

I have two trigger factors, hormone and HCC - and unfortunately it had

run into other parts of the body. As well as having it back

in the breast it had gone Despite what has happened to all

of you and what is continuing to happen, there is a vibe of

positivity coming from each of you. We didn't ask for it

so you have just got to get on with I would like to say that many

people have said to me, "You are there is no right or wrong way to

deal with a cancer diagnosis. If you do feel it is the worst thing

that has ever happened, you know, You need to either go to

a therapist or I really do think it is important to

talk. Absolutely. And not to be frightened to say

the C word. People can ask you how you are

and about the cancer. I talk about it

and I tell everybody. I have a colostomy

but I am not ashamed of it. I didn't ask for it.

None of us asked for it. In the ten years

since I have been diagnosed, the advancement in treatment has

been absolutely astonishing. It used to be a full body wash out,

no matter what cancer you had. It is designed for each person.

The surgery has improved as well. They can chop out little bits

and you can still function and carry Can I ask all

of you how you told family and friends when you were diagnosed for

the second time or the third time? Cancer first came into our lives

when I was diagnosed with the BRCA1 gene, which was made famous by

Angelina Jolie. So we talked about

openly from the beginning. They were only four and five

when that happened. I always used the words.

I used the word cancer, tumour. With small children it is

the same as telling them you have Talk about it and say those words,

because they are I made a decision

from the very beginning that cancer I can't choose whether or not I get

it but I can damn well decide how I am going to deal with

the diagnosis in my own head. In terms of adults in your family,

how did they react? Of course they were very worried

for me. I actually think personally that is

the worst part of being diagnosed, particularly multiple times,

it is the knock-on effect. There is huge guilt involved

with a cancer diagnosis because you know that you are going

to upset other people. For me, I have felt a lot

of the control can be taken away with the treatment and surgeries

and whatnot that you have to have. So, I suppose I gained back

the control in my own head It is not something I put on,

actually. I have always been

a glass half full kind of person. I kind of vowed that it

wasn't going to change me. I suppose seeing that

my writing career has developed, We still have the same home

life that anyone else has. Yes, my teenagers hate me most of

the time. My daughter has coped because

of my chronic asthma with having to dial 999 at six years old because I

had stopped breathing. She has grown up with

chronic asthma and cancer. She was nine when I got diagnosed

with cancer the first time. But you are right, Emma,

it is that telling of the immediate It is telling your partner, telling

the person who looks after you, and saying, well, yes, would you like to

come into the surgery because we have

a terminal diagnosis for you? So come in, bring your partner etc,

and we will start to plan from here. You think, gosh, what can I do

to make it better for them? What have you got to put in place

so quickly? But if you start to panic like that,

then I have found that there is a chance that it goes through

the body that much quicker. If you take a breath,

take a step back, and say, how can we deal with one

at a time etc with no consequences? And involve the partner in

as much of your treatment as possible and as you say, discuss it,

discuss what is happening, but also the after-effects, why you feel so

chronically tired, why you feel sick after the drugs, why you can't

get up those stairs, and say And just keep active.

Absolutely. How did those close to you

handle your repeated diagnoses? The third time I was away

on holiday for three months so I I had planned exactly what

I was going to say. And how did they react?

Just really sad. But I was positive about it.

It wasn't going to stop me. I just tried to keep going

and keep myself busy all the time. If there are people watching now who

are being diagnosed for a second time or more,

what would you say to them, Emma? The treatments have advanced

so incredibly. Secondly, this is pot and kettle

here, try not to Google things. It is always

the worst case scenario. Every cancer is different

with every single person. You may have the same name of cancer

as somebody else but it doesn't necessarily mean that your prognosis

or your body is going to deal with So talk to your medical team

because they are the only ones who know the answers to your questions

about your medical diagnosis. But I would certainly urge people

to speak or write things down. You can still survive.

Look at us. We are still here living normal

lives, doing our normal thing. I would say that they do err

on the side of caution to maybe set But say no.

This isn't going to beat me. I am going to fight this.

I want to be here. I love life

and I want to do the best that I can for other people who are suffering

but also their family and friends I think if you go with that positive

attitude, it makes such a difference, it

really does, when you say, right, God has put me on this earth

not to take me away yet. And Victoria is back presenting the

programme tomorrow. You have been getting in touch. This

one says, my mother had various kinds of cancer. Over the years. But

she lived to 78 years old. You have also been getting in touch about

possible action against Islamic State in Syria. This one says, why

is there any delay? IS have to be destroyed ASAP. Mark e-mails to

say, I think we should eradicate IS but for the future we should event

these groups earlier from becoming strong. Prevention is better than

cure. This one says, Islamic State claimed responsibility for the

attacks in Paris saying it was retaliation for French strikes in

Syria. Surely if the UK joins in, we will become a target for a similar

attack in the UK. It will make us less safe and more likely that IS

will attack the UK in retaliation. This one says, we cannot stand on

the sideline. We are all in this war together, even the Russians. It

affects us all. This one says, would it not be better to get Iraq cleaned

out of Isis so at least they would have nowhere to run and create a

safe haven? A decade since laws allowed 24-hour

drinking - how much has it shaped Let's get the latest weather update

with Louise. A really hard frost in places this

morning. We had our first snow across the tops of the higher ground

through the Pennines and up into Scotland as well. But some beautiful

sunshine to go with it. But it was bitterly cold. The wind was the key

feature. It gave as some blue sky but I was on the side of a touchline

on Saturday afternoon and it was freezing. I also understand that one

of the ski resorts in Cumbria was open this weekend because they had

enough snow. You cannot believe it, really. But I am pleased to say that

we are starting to see a change. We have had all faces of autumn,

really, this November. Over the next few days, although temperatures will

yo-yo a little, it will be on average about normal for this type

of the year. Today, after that cold start, we will see a good deal of

try weather across England and Wales. But change already into the

far north-west. Because it is a south-westerly, temperatures will be

on the up by the end of the day. Some of it could be quite heavy for

a time in Northern Ireland and western Scotland. Further south,

weakling onto some hazy sunshine but it will be a cold afternoon. -- we

cling on. Moving through the night tonight, not too much in the way of

frost as the cloud, wind and rain sinks southwards. Further south, the

cloud and rain will linger first thing in the morning. Then we are

into a blustery day of sunny spells and scattered showers. Most of the

showers tomorrow will be more frequent across the far north and

west. But certainly milder. Double digits back down in the south. High

pressure very much dominating through the middle of the week out

in the Atlantic. The winds swinging round in a clockwise to erections

giving us this north-westerly flow on Wednesday. -- in a clockwise

direction. Temperatures hovering at around 6-8. By the end of the week

we are dragging in this milder air. So, after that frosty start,

gradually turning milder. But the winds will certainly play a part.

Hello, it's Monday, it's ten o'clock.

Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us.

As David Cameron says he wants Britain to join forces with France,

is UK military action against so-called Islamic State

I firmly support the action that President Hollande has taken to

strike Isis in Syria, and I firmly believe that Britain should, too. It

is 15 years since we started the war on terror, and 12 years since George

W Bush declared it won. We need a new approach.

We'll ask how likely our involvement is and whether IS can be defeated

Brussels is still in lockdown as a series of anti-terror raids

I am Christian Fraser live in Brussels at the main station this

morning. The metro system and schools remained closed, and people

are being urged to stay away from the city centre.

And it's ten years since 24 hour drinking laws were introduced.

We want to know what you think about 24-hour drinking? Terrible! Ed

Snowden, who on earth can include 24 hours a day. -- it is not, who on

earth can drink 24 hours a day? David Cameron has been discussing

plans to tackle Islamic extremism with French president

Francois Hollande in Paris. The Prime Minister says it is

his "firm conviction" that the UK should join international air

strikes against Islamic State militants in Syria and he would make

his case to MPs this week. 16 people were arrested in Brussels

overnight as Belgian police carried out raids to find those connected to

the Paris gun and bombing attacks. But the key suspect, Salah Abdeslam,

wasn't found. The city remains on lockdown with

schools, universities Plans for two rapid reaction strike

brigades and a new fleet of maritime patrol aircraft -

are some of the key measures expected in the Government's defence

and security review - which will be Overall the defence equipment budget

is increasing by ?12 billion. The IPCC is urging police

commissioners to take reports of grooming more seriously. 14-year-old

Breck Bednar was killed by a man he met online. It is said that major

reforms are needed to prevent a major disaster such as the bowler

crisis. -- Ebola crisis. One of the last four white rhinos in

the world has had to be put down following a bacterial infection.

Nola was 41. Let's catch up with all the sport

now with Jessica, and there've been security fears surrounding the

Davis Cup final in Belgium. Yes, it is Joanna -

the Great Britain team did delay their departure for 24 hours,

but they're on their way to Ghent this morning, for the final

against Belgium on Friday. The venue is only 35 miles

from Brussels, which is still on high alert,

due to fears of a terrorist attack. Our tennis correspondent

Russell Fuller has the latest. The British team will practice for

the first town this afternoon on the clay-court which was laid over the

weekend at Flanders Expo arena. All indications are that this tie will

go ahead, the final will begin on Friday. On the ITF are gearing up

for it, and the chief executive of the tennis Federation in Belgium has

told the BBC that they have not had any indication from the Government

or security forces that they cannot proceed. Security has been

heightened dramatically since the attacks on Paris. It is very

unsettling for many people who are making travel plans to get to Ghent,

some via Brussels. They will be under tight security as they go from

the venue to their hotel, but as things stand, the final will be

played over three days in Ghent from Friday until Sunday.

Leicester City were bottom of the table in April,

but thanks largely to this man, Jamie Vardy, they're now top.

A goal in their 3-0 win at Newcastle meant Vardy equalled

the record of scoring in ten consecutive Premier League games.

And Harry Kane's two goals helped Tottenham thump West Ham 4-1 -

that equals the club record of 12 league games unbeaten.

Now, you may remember seeing the boxer Anthony Crolla on this

programme a few months ago. 11 months ago boxer Anthony Crolla

was in a hospital bed suffering from injuries that could have ended

his career, after trying to stop At the weekend,

he became WBA lightweight champion. With the minimum of fuss, Anthony

Crolla became a world champion. But the reaction gives away just how

much it has taken him to get to this point. Less than a year ago, he was

left with a fractured skull and broken ankle after tackling two

burglars at a neighbour's house. Last Christmas I was sat on that

couch their with my leg in plaster. I was skin and bones because I had

lost so much weight through the medication and stuff like that. It

was still up in the air whether I would fight again, and this

Christmas I am going to have a belt under the Christmas tree, and a lot

to look forward to next year. Victory over Dali is Peres makes him

a star, but this star is driven by quiet steel. I made a promise in

that hospital bed that I will come back stronger than I have ever done,

and I have done that. I came so close to losing it all, and there

would be a huge void in my life. I wanted make sure I take advantage, I

have been given a second chance. Next year there may be a at Old

Trafford, home of his beloved Manchester United, but it will also

bring security to his family,. My end coming into boxing was to win a

world title, and the other aim financially was to get my hours paid

for. But now I have a family of Mayan, you want to support them, and

if I can set my kids up for when they are, that is the next step.

Before that, Anthony Crolla deserves a rest. It has been a long fight.

What an inspirational tale. That is all the sport for now. I will have

the headlines at 10:30am. Thank you, Jess.

Thank you for joining us this morning.

Welcome to the programme if you've just joined us,

we're on BBC Two and the BBC News Channel until 11 this morning.

Throughout the next hour we will bring you the latest rating news and

developing stories. Your contributions to this

programme and your expertise Lots of you getting in touch about

Victoria's interview with the cancer survivors.

Texts will be charged at the standard network rate.

And of course you can watch the programme online wherever you

are - via the bbc news app or our website bbc.co.uk/victoria,

and you can also subscribe to all our features on the news app,

by going to add topics and searching 'Victoria Derbyshire'.

Brussels is still in a state of lockdown with fear

Schools, the metro system and all public buildings remain

Police have arrested 16 people in a series of raids aimed

at targeting militants linked to the Paris attacks which killed 130

The key suspect in the bombings and shootings - Salah Abdeslam -

Our correspondent Christian Fraser is in the Belgian capital.

What's the latest? A lot of police action last night

around the Grande Lace. -- Grande Place. They raided 22 places around

Brussels, 16 arrests, one man was shot in a car that was driven at

police in the Molenbeek area, and they tell us the raids will

continue. The threat level remains at four in Brussels. Behind us here

is the central station. Trains are still running this morning, some

leading the lots -- leaving for Luxembourg and Amsterdam. We have a

mournful tune outside the station here from a violinist, and this

armoured personnel carrier parked in the square and a visible presence of

security inside the station. Just up the road, lots of bosses. My

impression is because it is a better day, people are getting on with it.

Some companies said, don't come into work, but most people are going

about their lives as normal. Even though the main suspect in the Paris

attacks is still at large, Salah Abdeslam has not been found. Despite

those raids around Brussels, police say they are still hunting for him.

So the raids will continue. We have heard from his brother Mohammed who

was arrested by police the first weekend of the investigation, but

was released after it seemed that he was here throughout. He has been

talking about his brother, what sort of person he was, and trying to sell

the story that at Salah Abdeslam had a change of heart at the last

minute. TRANSLATION: It is more than my

hope, it is my belief. Salah is a clever man. I think at the last

moment he decided to move back. I think he decided not to do the thing

he wanted to do. I have to remind you that today, we don't know all

the elements of the investigation. We do not know whether he killed

people or not. We do not know if he was there on the actual location of

the attack. You told him to surrender, and yet as of now, he

hasn't done so. What would you like to say to him? I would like to tell

him that we are not afraid, and that is why we are talking to the press.

We wanted to surrender. What has he got to lose? Why would he

surrender? First, he might bring us the answers we are waiting for. For

his family and also the victims' families and all others looking to

us at the moment. We would rather see him in jail than in a cemetery.

The brother of the missing gunmen Salah Abdeslam. He lives about 200

metres from the town hall with his family, and he has worked for the

local municipality for ten years. Let's speak to the adviser to the

mayor. You know Mohammed well. Are you convinced? I hope that what he

is saying is the truth. I don't want to give my opinion, it is

difficult. We really hope that he respects is conscious and what he is

saying is the reality. We heard from the interior minister over the

weekend who was under enormous pressure. He wants to know more

about the people who live in your district, even if, he says, that

means the local authority bangs on every door and demands to know who

lives there. He doesn't think you have a grid of it. It is a difficult

question because it is not possible in the facts to go and knock on each

door and know who is living there. When someone arrives in the minister

palatine and moves in -- in the municipality and moves in, it is an

illusion to think that somebody can go and knock on their doctor and ask

them if there is someone here who shouldn't be here. So we have to be

realistic and not say things that are demagogic. Salah Abdeslam has a

network of supporters and people who could look after him in Mullen Beek.

The brothers run a bar, which you close down two weeks ago. So where

could he be hiding? The problem with Molenbeek is in a poor area,

everybody knows each other, so people are taking in the fear of

what is going to be. They know the brothers, they have been with them

at school, so I think the only a to go on is to have confidence, links

with the population, that people know where to go, where to speak and

be secure when they are going to say something. Are you buying this

impression that Muhammad is trying to sell that his brother is an

intelligent person? You shut down the bar because they were drug

dealing. You told me a story of them kicking in the door of the housing

minister. It doesn't sound like a family that was respectful of the

local community. It is difficult, because some people who know the

family say that they don't understand that the brothers have

become as far on the things they have done. But you and the mayor

don't believe that, do you? I hope in each family there can be

different kinds of people, but I don't want to accuse someone without

knowing what effectively was happening. There are something like

5000 people who have gone to Syria to train and fight, and it is

estimated we don't know about half of them. We also know that some of

the suicide bombers from the Stade de France came across with others,

so it is perfectly possible in a transient community like Molenbeek

that there are people hiding there who you just don't know about? There

are in fact from Molenbeek 30 people who went to Syria. In one small

community? In 95,000 people. We know that some of them died there. And

about six or seven came back. That is the 30 know about. The state

security were told that. It is not a matter of the municipality. It is

the state security who told us that. So the problem of this place is that

people were staying there in this area, people quite poor, people who

don't speak our language. There are many people living there, coming

year after year, and we have made a quite close community. They are

afraid of what is going to happen. I think if you don't know the language

of the country where you are, how can you go and say things, where are

you going to? And it is that thing that we have to put with the

community, not to discriminate everybody, not but everybody in the

same, how do you say. The same basket. Thank you very much indeed.

That does explain, Joanna, why there is a problem gathering intelligence

in the Mullen Beek area, and in several other district around

Brussels. -- the Molenbeek area. The terror threat level stays at four,

but on the back of the terror level raids we have seen, the Prime

Minister will review whether that needs to stay in place later today.

David Cameron says Britain and France will step up co-operation,

including greater intelligence sharing. We face a shared threat and

we must share information and intelligence better to protect

ourselves from these brutal terrorists. We are already doing

this but today we have agreed to step up our efforts even further and

work more closely with our European neighbours. We must do more to

tackle the threat of returning foreign fighters. This requires a

cross European effort. We need a stronger external European border to

perfect security more effectively with systematic security checks

greater sharing of data are amongst members take. We must without

further delay finally agreed rules which will enable us to share

passenger name records. It is frankly ridiculous that we can get

more information from countries outside the EU that we can from each

other. And we must do more to crack down on the trade in illegal

firearms to stop them getting into the hands of terrorists who are

determined to wreak such misery. David Cameron has been meeting the

French president, Francois Hollande, in Paris to disucss the fight

against the Islamic State group. Our Really it was a fleeting visit from

the Prime Minister this morning just to show the unity that he wants to

present to the world along with Francois Hollande following those

attacks last week. But also to come up with a plan to deal with it. It

is really a 2 pronged approach. The first, on counter-terrorism

measures. Greater data-sharing, greater combating of the arms trade

in Europe. He said it was frankly ridiculous that information could

not be shared that easily with European allies as easily as it

could be shared with non-European allies. But also greater

coordination on Syria and Iraq. President Hollande has deployed an

aircraft carrier to continue with air strikes inside Syria and the

British Prime Minister has given him the use of a British base in the

Mediterranean. We know the UK has not sanctioned yet British strikes

on Syria, but it is something which David Cameron wants to do and

Francois Hollande will be hoping that he does just that.

It's ten years since changes to alcohol

licencing made 24 hour drinking a reality, or at least a possibility.

Plans for two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet

of maritime patrol aircraft - are some of the key measures

at short notice and an extra ?12 billion of funding for equipment are

expected to be announced by David Cameron later today.

It is part of the government's review of defence and spending.

But with an increased terror threat fear, is it enough?

Defence and diplomatic correspondent Jonathan Marcus joins me now.

The context is that at the last Strategic Defence Review, a number

of risks were taken, if you like. Dominated by the economic climate, a

number of cuts had to be made. We lost maritime patrol aircraft, we

lost the carriers and the jump jets. Those are now being fulfilled. We

are going to have nine of the American maritime patrol aircraft.

We are going to be buying the F-35ss for the carriers at a

slightly faster rate. Remember, we have already decided to have two

carriers operational. There will be about ?12 billion more spent on

equipment. We have already heard about improvements for the special

forces, improvements for cyber defence, more drones and so on. So,

all of the sexy things we are hearing about. What we do not know

so much about is the less sexy areas like logistics, the ability to

maintain and sustain these new things in the field. Is this about

filling in caps which emerged after the last spending review in the cuts

or is it a change of strategy? I think it is a recognition that we

are now looking at new threats which have emerged. So-called Islamic

State are much more bullish -- Islamist state, a much more bullish

and difficult Russia. But I think overall, apart from those of two

challenges, there is clearly a need to have much more fixable forces,

which is where the 2 strike brigades come in. Forces which can be moved

to trouble spots quickly. So, within, let's be honest, relatively

limited means, money is still tight, we are trying to reconfigure

the Armed Forces to give that more flexible capability. Of course it

comes at a price. Lieutenant General Sir Simon Mayall

was an adviser at the Ministry of Defence until this year,

and Jimmy Carroll is a recently retired officer who was commended

for bravery whilst seeing active Do you trust the politicians to get

it right when it comes to military spending priorities? Yes, I think as

we have seen in the last review that cuts had to be made. The Government

had to cope with a massive deficit in the budget. However it has had an

effect on the troops now. Although we have got this uplift moving

forward, it is not until 2023 that we will see a lot of those effects.

I think we need to actually discuss the troops on the ground and where

the incentive is for them and to keep the talent coming in. Without

the talent we will not be able to react capably to what is facing us.

I think that is the key part here, really keeping the morale amongst

the troops as well and reinforcing the standards that they have. You

have relatively recently left - how would you describe the morale? I

left two years ago now. Those who are still in, morale is probably

waning a little bit. Since the drawdown in Afghanistan, a lot of

people have gone and done the job that they were training to do and

now they are looking at what is next. But limited resources are

there. And actually it is the added benefits really which they hold

onto. We can have all the kit and equipment we want but unless you are

actually rewarding the troops on the ground, that is where the lack of

capability will lie. What is your perspective on this? Yes, I would

say credit where it is due. The last defence review was a major blow. We

thought we were going to take some cuts to army manpower. They were

worse than we expected. I think that had a significant effect on

recruiting and retention and I utterly echoed Jimmy's point. We

have seen what happens dare I say with the Iraqi army, where you put a

lot of money and investment into it, but actually equipment and

training does not make for a cohesive force. The backbone of the

services is the quality of young men and women who join, and critically,

those who stay. We have definitely addressed the number of capability

gaps which were left. I think we all agree the 2010 review was done in a

huge rush. The background was an appalling financial situation. I

think we have been mugged a bit by reality in terms of some of the

risks we took on that. I think the Prime Minister and the Government

have faced up to that. I do think we have a current fight, which we are

very aware of. We have a threat from areas where Russia has been very

resurgent and very aggressive. I don't think we should ever forget

that while we look at the situation in the Middle east. We clearly have

a major threat rising from Islamic extremism in the round. We need to

address that as well as make sure that the Iranians and the Russians

are not able to take advantage of that. But also every generation has

to hold the Armed Forces in trust for the next generation. And I do

think that although the headlines will be about excellent, fantastic

investment, and I applaud the Government for that, actually making

sure that we have the right quality men and women in the Armed Forces,

who wants to join and then want to stay because they Ken Sio really

productive, long-term career on behalf of the nation. And I really

hope we see the Government acknowledging the real importance of

the manpower within the Armed Forces. It must not be looked on as

overheads. Equipment is not capability unless it is manned with

the correctly trained men and women. I think 42,000 members of the Armed

Forces have gone over five years and that is ground which is not going to

be made up, is it? Not quickly. We have tried to mitigate some of that

with reserves. I commend that, I think the reserve army does a

fantastic job but inherently they are not as flexible as Wood Hill is.

I have always argued for a long-time, for me, for a military

our size, with our responsibilities and wealth and leadership role in

the UN and Nato and relationships around the world, there was

something totemic about 100,000, which I think played to people

feeling that they were part of an organisation which was well

grounded. Clearly numbers alone are not enough. Money alone is not

enough. You can waste money. But I think this human dimension is

extremely important. Jimmy has won two gallantry medals in

Afghanistan, he has been so close to the quality of people that we have

attracted and we must keep them. This is a good start, I want to be

clear. I applaud the Government for what they have done. Let's continue

to build. We can have this capability uplift and investment in

equipment and technology, but from the last review, where we are

lacking is this deficit in manpower. You do not create soldiers, sailors

and airmen overnight. Therefore you have got to train up these people.

The other thing is that last week, the Government spoke about extra

funds going to the special forces. I think this is very important. You

can buy more kit and equipment for the special forces and they will

happily take it on, but you cannot just buy extra special forces

soldiers. We have really depleted the pool where we take those

soldiers from. When we are a much larger family of 85,000-100,000, we

were still finding it hard to fill the special forces. And so if we

want to keep the quality of the soldier and to be leading the way in

special forces soldier in which Tanya holds itself in, we need to

keep that talent pool which and swell it. And so the reduction in

manpower which we have been hit with is really affecting that.

Afghanistan has had its drawdown on those who wanted to go towards

special forces because a lot of regular soldiers were getting far

more active service than they ever saw before. And it is addressing

that again going forward. You can always look at the now but you have

got to look to the future and plan. There are no quick fix solutions,

especially to manpower. You cannot buy an off-the-shelf product. It is

keeping those soldiers and sailors and airmen in and incentivised

because we want them to stay in for the long game because they will be

the leaders going forward. Thanks for joining us today -

still to come before 11. Has 24-hour drinking made us more

likely to abuse alcohol? And one of only four white rhinos in the world

has died. We will ask if anything can be done to save the species.

An update on the main news this morning.

Francois Hollande have held talks together in Paris to discuss

tackling Islamic State militants following the attacks in the French

capital. The Prime Minister has offered France the use of a British

airbase in Cyprus for air strikes against the group in Syria. He'll

make his case for British military action to MPs later this week.

I firmly support the action resident Hoiland has taken to strike Isil in

Syria, and it is my firm conviction that Britain should do so, too.

overnight as Belgian police carried out raids to find those connected to

the Paris attacks. But the key suspect - Salah Abdeslam - wasn't

found. The highest level of terror alert remains in place with schools,

universities and the metro system all closed.

Plans for two rapid reaction strike brigades and a new fleet

of maritime patrol aircraft are some of the key measures

expected in the Government's defence and security review which will be

Overall the defence equipment budget is increasing by ?12 billion.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission is urging police chiefs

to tackle reports of grooming more effectively.

The recommendation follows the murder of 14-year-old Breck Bednar,

who was befriended online through a gaming website by his killer.

One of only four northern white rhinos left in the world has died

Nola was 41, and had to be put down after she

Let's get the sport now with Jessica, and the Davis Cup final in

Belgium still scheduled to start

The final will go ahead as planned on Friday. The GB team travelled to

get this morning, and there will be increased security surrounding

players and spectators. Harry Kane scored twice for Tottenham in their

4-1 win over West Ham as they extended their unbeaten run to 12

games, equalling the club record. But Mike Aberdeen

missed the chance to move up to second in the Scottish Premiership.

They took an early lead at Hamilton, but then let in a lake -- a late

equaliser. And Rory McIlroy said he couldn't wait for next year after

finishing the season as Europe's number one golfer and securing the

race to divide title for the third time in five years. That is all your

sports headlines this morning. Thank you, Jess. See you later.

It looks increasingly likely that Britain will take military action

against so-called Islamic State in Syria before Christmas.

The PM says he will be setting out his plans to Parliament this week

Earlier on the programme four politicians gave us their

I want to be open-minded, but I want to see a complete plan, and I don't

think that sound bites about standing up for British interests is

good enough. We need a complete plan. Even if we were to take out

eyes is, what would happen in the vacuum? What would fill it? We are

bombing IS in Iraq now, that got through the House of Commons. If

they are a threat to our country, it surely it is logical we would attack

them wherever they are, Iraq, Syria or elsewhere? It makes military

sense. What we need to do is look towards how we find a final peaceful

settlement in Syria that doesn't involve Assad, that gets rid of ices

and this hideous organisation. But we need to think about what comes

next in Syria, and that means focusing on diplomacy.

We think the right thing is to have a plan for peace in Syria. Building

on what was done in Vienna last weekend, and bringing forward and

urgent plan for a ceasefire beyond non-Daesh forces in Syria. We also

think the right thing to do is to realise that bringing about peace in

Syria is the way to tackle both the refugee and terror crisis which is

afflicting Europe and elsewhere at the moment.

Norman Smith is in Westminster, and asked Frank Gardner for some

analysis. What are you expecting in terms of a potential vote? I think

if David Cameron went for a vote today, he would rob a blue win it.

As it is, he wants to make absolutely sure he wins it. -- he

would probably win it. There was a report out opposing military action

on Thursday, there will probably written statement at oral statement.

Downing Street say they will then leave the issue, in their words, to

percolate in a few days. They will see where opinion is, and if they

think they can win, they will go for a vote. And then we could be

involved in military action within days, because just from where I am

sitting, it seems the mood in Parliament now is massively

different to what it was back in 2013 when MPs voted against bombing

Assad. That vote was almost more cock up and confusion than anything,

which is why Mr Cameron lost it. But many MPs are much more aware of the

outrages in Tunisia, and of course Paris. And the bombing of the Sinai

plane. The Vienna peace process and the putative new Syrian government

in 18 months, and last but by minnow means least there is a UN

resolution. It doesn't specifically authorise force, but it is still

there. When you put that package together, I think a lot of MPs will

grasp that and say, that is good enough. So I fully expect Mr Cameron

will win this boat. Talking to MPs earlier, they are

concerned about the potential ramifications in Syria terms of

Bashar al-Assad and potentially the power vacuum. All these issues that

you expect David Cameron to address before the vote, or is he likely to

try to keep it tightly focused on IS? There were half a dozen

questions raised around the legality of any action, the military

effectiveness, the diplomatic aces for any action. Post-conflict

planning, humanitarian assistance, whole load of questions set out

which Mr Cameron will address. Having spoken to be blue around him,

it seems to me he has pretty much got answers to all of the bar one,

and the one which I don't think he has an answer to is the issue of

ground troops, because there is a view expressed in the Foreign

Affairs Committee report that bombing from the air is not going to

be enough, there needs to be ground troops. Pretty much every nation

says, not us. So that leaves the question, who is? And Mr Fallon this

morning was floating the idea that there might be some deal done

between resident Assad's troops and the Free Syrian Army. Given that

they have been trying to blow each other up for years, that is

extremely unlikely, so you are then left casting around saying, who is

going to do it? Will other Muslim nations offer their troops? May be

Jordan Whelan. It is hard to see who will be the ground troops that will

actually get on the ground and get rid of IS. And I'm not sure they yet

have an answer for that. Frank, air strikes without ground

troops. How effective would that be?

Exactly as Norman says, if you only have air strikes, all you do is

contain it. Very few big wars have been won by air strikes alone. The

Israelis made this mistake in 2006 thinking they could go into Lebanon

from the air and bomb Hezbollah back into their bunkers, and they had to

go in on the ground in the end. Western countries don't want to

commit ground forces at all, and the countries of the region don't want

them either to do it. As Norman says, it is not that easy to put

together a force on the ground, because it is like a patchwork quilt

of lots of different interests. There is a fair degree of wishful

thinking in Whitehall that there is going to be a future Syrian

government with Russian connivance that will quite possibly even invite

in a Western Force or a US international force, possibly eight

UN force that will eventually tackle ices on the ground. But that is

still quite some way off, and exactly as Norman says, the idea

that the Free Syrian Army who have been fighting an absolute battle of

survival against the barrel bombs of Bashar al-Assad's forces, that they

will somehow say, let's forget all of that and be friends, that is not

going to happen. They will not do a deal with him. It has to be the

Kurds, but they will only want to go into the areas they operated. In

Iraq, and don't forget that so-called Islamic State struggles

that border, it will need Sunni soldiers under an Iraqi flag to

retake areas like muscle. It is no good sending in the effective but

unpopular Shia militias, you cannot send them into Sunni areas, you have

a sectarian problem there. So the problem is that helped create IS's

military victories last year, they are still there. The Syrian civil

war and the difficulties in Iraq. So if we do get this vote, and I think

we will, and Britain will join France and the US and other

countries in carrying out strikes on Syria, that is not go to be the end

of IS, and in fact they won't be any noticeable change at all. It will

make it a little more difficult here in Britain, but IS are already our

enemy. We were already a target. I want to put you an e-mail saying

Islamic State claimed responsibility for the attacks in Paris saying it

was retaliation for air strikes. Surely if the UK joins, we will

become a target for a Syrian attack, so won't Ming Syria make us less

safe? In the short term, I think it will, but you can't hide from this.

IS in initially said, our beef is not with you in the West, just let

us get on and conquer the territory we want in the Middle East, leave us

alone to rampage across the least, and so they rampaged across northern

Iraq, they are slaves to people and tortured them, they cut heads off,

they advanced towards Kurdistan, so America and others said, we can't

let this happen. So they intervened with air strikes to push them back,

and IS responded by beheading journalists and Western aid

workers, so war was essentially declared. Any vote that is held in

Parliament over whether or not Britain should join military action

is comparing apples and pears. The last time that vote was held two

years ago, September 2013, it was over a completely different

question, should we start a war with President Assad's forces to punish

them for their mass gas attack? And the intelligence case made to

Parliament was so weak that MPs said, you have to be kidding, we are

not go to do this. And they lost the vote. This is very different.

Britain is already at war with so-called Islamic State, and it has

vowed the destruction of Western interests and governments which it

sees as Apple states in the region. -- apostates in the region. Even a

ground attack alone won't deal with it. The phenomena will still be

there. You have to go to the root causes as to why so many people are

joining this hideous death cult. Lots of questions being asked by

those who will be involved in the debate if and when it happens in

Parliament. Are you very much of the view that it is most likely that

Britain will be involved in air strikes in Syria before Christmas? I

am, yes. I think it is very likely. I think the one thing that is

holding back a lot of MPs is the shadow of Iraq. We all know, it was

probably one of the most profound moments in most of our lives, but it

still hangs heavily on many MPs, and there is still this instinctive fear

that we risk repeating what happened in Iraq. And I guess you see that

most notably I would suggest in the approach of President Obama at the

moment who has been so wary of any American commitment of ground troops

or anything like that. And that is absolutely because of Iraq. And that

is the case in Westminster, too, particularly on the Labour side. So

many Labour MPs were seared by that experience that that probably still

does hold them back at the moment. In broad terms, I can't see that Mr

Cameron is really in danger of losing this vote, because, as I say,

things have changed so fundamentally since the last vote. The only other

thing which I do know, talking to Mr Fulham this morning, he was warning

that this is going to be a long campaign, so we are not talking

about dropping bombs for a few weeks and disappearing. So already the

ground is being prepared really quite a lengthy commitment, which

again may give people pause for concern. But the Prime Minister's

argument has always been that this is a generational struggle. We have

to be prepared for a really open track to do and prolonged campaign

against IS. There is not going to be a quick solution to this.

Norman, that Hugh. It is ten years

since changes to alcohol licensing made 24-hour drinking a reality,

or at least a possibility. Only a small number

of venues have ever applied for full round-the-clock drinking,

but the policy has been It never did bring a continental

cafe culture to British streets. Many claim it brought extra pressure

on the emergency services later Even some

of the government ministers involved But a decade on,

how much has it shaped our relationship with alcohol?

Dan Johnson reports. It is Saturday night

and absolutely freezing. It must be the coldest night

of the year. I think it is fair to say this city

has something of a hard drinking reputation and this is Botchergate

right at the heart of it. It is a good way

of socialising with your friends. It adds to

the craic that you have got. If you didn't have a drink,

you wouldn't have the same sort Olly, me and you,

we have never met each other sober. When it was 11 o'clock finish,

everybody was drinking heavily to get as much as they could

into them before they went home. You can drink what you want

and go home when you want. We all came out of the club,

2 o'clock, it was an absolute Was it safe?

I don't know. Now, since we've had 24 hour

drinking laws, it's different. People are venturing to taxis,

they go home at one, maybe at two, So I seriously think

that it's better. Choices are good,

however for people that are vulnerable, too much choice and not

enough support, they fall through. Sometimes if they are walking

around without shoes on, We give them bottles of water

if they are dehydrated. We clean people up

if they have been sick. Kathy is offering help and support.

She is a volunteer street pastor. They have been patrolling

Botchergate on Saturday evenings You must see some sights?

We do. We just try to do what we can

for them. It saddens me that we can't have

a civilised attitude towards it. The British attitude historically

has probably been drink as much as you can

in the shortest possible time. They wanted us to have a European

attitude of a long, civilised That is not how we roll in Britain,

is it? You don't see that?

No, we don't. It has been a good change to

the industry and a bad, because it has taken custom from pubs

and given it more to supermarkets But apart from that,

it doesn't really bother me. As long as people behave themselves

and enjoy their night out with no Has it made

your job easier or harder? It has made our job harder

because our shifts are longer. The hard drinking culture

here goes back a long way. In fact, a century ago,

to try and control the amount that people here were drinking, the

Government took the unprecedented step of taking over every brewery

and every pub in the area. The Howard Arms was one of the pubs

that came under the ownership of the Carlisle state management scheme,

effectively run by the Home Office. We have always had a good reputation

for drinking because we are We are hard workers

and good drinkers. Lloyd George became Prime Minister

and he famously said our enemies are the Germans and alcohol -

and alcohol is causing more damage than the Germans, which was in

the middle of the First World War. So, there was

a definite belief that something had to be done and the Government were

the only people to do it. The Government thought if it could

control drinking, it could improve productivity at the vast munitions

factory on the edge of the city. All

the managers became civil servants. So they had no incentive

whatsoever to sell anything. They were encouraged to put

on food in the belief that if you ate while you were drinking,

you didn't get as drunk. And there was strict control

of drinking hours. They even banned buying rounds

and watered down the beer. Incredibly, state control here

lasted through both World Wars What do you think of

the state-owned pubs in Carlisle? They are very good

but I don't drink there. I just drink at home.

The beer is as good as anywhere. I wouldn't buy any other beer

but I'd like to if I wanted to. I abhor it because we are being

controlled here, in spite of 2000 years of time just as the wall that

stretches across there was coming We didn't know any other way

of living. We didn't know any other way

of drinking. The Government regulated

when we drank. And there were a lot

of people happy about that. Alan is one of the regulars who has

fond memories of state management. They loved the beer.

It was absolutely fantastic. Is there a case for it coming back?

I wish it would. And he is not the only one

calling for tighter regulation. In all seriousness,

it is spiralling out of control. People are getting diseases,

injuries, What do you think that should be?

More control over drinking hours? How can I say it?

We were civilised. Civilised.

You think it is not now? Back out on Botchergate, a lot has

changed since the Government gave up When the laws were relaxed in 2005,

there was evidence that problems only got worse,

but there are now suggestions our relationship with alcohol has

been maturing more recently. Statistics say that fewer people

are binge-drinking than before. I don't know

if we have particularly seen it in Carlisle although we do see

a lot fewer people than we used to. In the five and a bit years

that we have been doing this. If you look at Botchergate tonight

at this time, you can see across the street - five and a half years ago

you couldn't at this time of night. I think people are having

a different attitude towards how much they drink, where they drink

and when they drink. I was involved in the past in

the licensing trade, and I can't say I think in the past it was probably

worse because people got more and more drunk knowing they had

a time limit. Personally I don't

think it is any worse. Too much drink.

A couple of pints is fine. They don't know what

planet they are on. They are only having fun,

aren't they? Well, it is fun now,

but later on there will be We want to know what you think

about 24 hour drinking, when the Government brought that in.

Was it a good idea? Love it.

Terrible, absolutely terrible. It's not!

It is. Who

on earth can drink 24 hours a day? A northern white rhino thought to

be one of just four left on Earth has

died at a zoo in California. Nola, who was 41, had to be put down at

the San Diego Zoo Safari Park after developing a bacterial infection.

She was described as as an "iconic animal", whose gentle disposition

and love of having her back scratched, had endeared her to

staff. There are now only three left in the

world. Lots of you have been getting in touch with us about this. This

one says, this is just devastating. Man should hang its head in shame

that this has been allowed to happen.

Let's talk now to Richard Vigne, chief executive officer at the Ol

Pejeta Conservancy, a wildlife reserve in northern Kenya.

This is where the remaining three northern white rhinos are. You met

her, didn't you? I did, I happened to be in San Diego last week and she

looked reasonably healthy then but obviously things have taken a turn

for the worse. How much of a blow is it to the future of northern white

rhinos, that one of only four has now died? This species has been on

the brink of extinction for an awfully long period of time. If you

get to a situation where there is only four animals left, chances of

recovering that species are pretty small. It is as a result of demand

for their horn and poaching of the species. It is something which

affects all rhinos across the planet. The loss of Nola is not

great and we are down to three, but to be frank it does not really

change dramatically the chances of recovering the species. Is there any

hope? You have got the three where you are - is there anything that can

be done in terms of breeding? The answer is yes,. But the only way to

do it now probably is through scientifically assisted reproductive

methods. I will not go into the details of that but we are essential

talking in vitro fertilisation, exactly as happens in humans and

cattle and horses. The problem is, it has never been done in rhinos.

The protocols would have to be developed first. That comes at a

huge cost. And it will not work unless we can keep the remaining two

females alive because they are the single remaining repository of

northern white rhino eggs left in the world. If they die, those eggs

will be lost and then we are going to be looking at... Potentially

there are other methods of doing it but those animals - huge amounts of

expense and science which is right at the cutting edge and is yet to be

fully developed. Just explain what those methods potentially could be?

In San Diego they have stored cell lines of northern white rhinos, I

think about 12-14 different individuals that they have in frozen

storage in a place they call their frozen zoo. What they would do is

create themselves from those cell lines which then, theoretically, you

can take stem cells and sperm cells and combine to create embryos for

implantation into surrogate southern white females. So, it is a real long

shot because the creation of those stem cells and the subsequent

creation of sperm cells and excels I don't think has ever been done. I am

not a scientist. But certainly it is science which is a long way from

happening and as I said would cost a huge amount of money to make

happen. I think there are southern white rhinos left. What is the

difference between the northern and southern? To look at them you would

not see much difference. There are a few morphological difference. They

tend to be slightly more hairy on the fringe of the ear. More

importantly they are adapted to living in different habitats. The

northern white rhino traditionally existed across north and central

Africa. Those areas offer different environmental challenges to rhinos.

So, the loss of the genetics which made up the northern white rhino

would preclude us from ever introducing rhinos back into those

areas in the future. Really that is the importance of it. Thank you very

much for talking to us. And we can bring you some of your comments on

those three amazing women who Victoria spoke to earlier about

their multiple cancer diagnoses. This one says, I had cancer three

times... And this one says, five years ago I was treated for breast

cancer. I am getting near to the end of my five years on tamoxifen. Then

I was diagnosed with lymphoma. Chemotherapy was hard but I have

been in remission for three years and I feel fine. There is lots of

hope out there for many people who a few years ago would not have been

treated. This one says, I am 32 and fighting bowel cancer for the second

time. My family has supported me endlessly. I am very positive and

will beat this and I encourage everybody to be positive. Another

tweet - watching three incredibly brave women - inspiring. Thank you

for your company today. Victoria is back tomorrow. I will see you soon.