02/12/2015 Victoria Derbyshire


02/12/2015

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Hello, it's Wednesday, it's 9.15, I'm Victoria Derbyshire,

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MPs will vote today MPs will vote today on whether Britain should

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join air strikes against so-called Islamic State fighters in Syria.

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We talk to two mothers who have both lost their sons fighting in Syria.

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My son Kosta died in Syria helping the Kurdish people in their defence

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against Isis. I believe close air support can be very helpful and I

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think Britain should extend their air support into Syria. I lost my

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son last September in Syria, when the Americans went there and bombed.

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I don't believe in the Government going to Syria to bomb. I believe it

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will be the innocent that will be the victims. We will hear both

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mothers soon. Some MPs are still undecided

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on how to vote and one key issue is whether air strikes will inevitably

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lead to Briish troops being sent Now we are absolutely clear that

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British forces will not be committed That would be unhelpful

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and inappropriate. Throughout the programme we want to

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hear from you - how do you want Facebook founder Mark Zuckerberg

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announces he'll give most of his multi-billion dollar fortune

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to charity - inspired Hello, welcome to the programme,

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we're on BBC 2 and the BBC News Today do let us know how you want

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your MP to vote in today's crucial vote on extending

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air strikes in Syria, and why you Texts are charged

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at the standard network rate. If you're happy to be called

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on facetime or via webcam to mark your text or e-mail "call me"

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and we'll try and get you on air Voting on

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whether your country should bomb targets in another is just about one

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of the most significant decisions Today British MPs will do just that,

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and by the weekend RAF jets could be firing

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precision missiles on IS targets not The debate in the Commons begins

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at 11.30 this morning, it will last for around 10 hours and inevitably

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much of our programme this morning We thought we'd begin

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though away from the politics - if that's possible -

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with two mothers who have both lost Vasiliki Scurfield's son Kosta died

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after three months on the front line fighting against Isis, because he

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thought the UK should do more. Khadijah Kamara's 19-year-old son

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Ibrahim went to Syria to fight for IS and was killed it's thought

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by a US drone in Aleppo. Vasiliki, why did your son want to

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go and fight in Syria? My son wasn't interested in civil war in Syria, he

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was particularly concerned about the role of Isis in the oppression and

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murder and enslavement of vast amounts of people. He was very

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frustrated when he found out that the British Government was not going

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to help and he was a critical thinker and a doer and he was a good

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soldier, he EXELed at what he -- excelled at what he did. He went out

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there to do really what he thought was right and support the Kurdish

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people in their defence of their own territory. What was your reaction to

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that? Fear, terror, horror, all the things any mother would feel. You

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don't want your son to be at risk. You don't want any of your children

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to be at risk and there are other ways of helping. I wished he would

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have done some of those. Khadijah, why did your son want to fight in

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Syria for a Jihadist group, it is said. I can only explain what he

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told me, that he wanted to go and help as children and women and the

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vulnerable people are suffering. But like I told him, I said, look, you

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don't even know which kind of war is going on and you're still doing your

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education. You don't have any money. I said how are you going to help. I

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said there are a lot of different ways to help. You can make donations

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and they're training aid workers to bring donations to people. You going

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there, I don't think that is a good idea. We talked about that. I

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remember the first time I was in the car, I was driving, but it wasn't

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obvious that he will really make a move and go. You didn't really think

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he would do it. And more over, his passport was expired, so I didn't

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renew it, so just to make sure he will not go, because... I never know

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where things might lead to. But then... You thought that would be

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enough Yes, because it wasn't obvious when he said he wanted to

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go. It wasn't obvious. But he started changing. He started going

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out more. Coming late and things like that. For you, there was no

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clear indication that he was becoming radicalised. No, yes. Could

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you have stopped Kosta from going there? No, I couldn't. I believe his

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friends in the military and people like that tried to stop him. But if

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someone's determined to go, they will go. At the end of the day we

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bring our children up really to hopefully be people who will stand

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by their principles and people of integrity and if that is what my son

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did in the end. Khadijah, your son rang you when he got to Syria. Yes

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he rang me on 2nd January, February sorry. He said mom, around 11.45 and

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said to me mum, I'm in Syria and then I hang up. He called again, mum

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did you hang up on me. I said yes, don't ever call me again. Because

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you were so angry. I was... I don't know, it was a mixed up feeling.

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Anger. I felt let down. Disappointment. And everything and

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all the stigma that goes with that that your son has gone to Syria and

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all that. So I was angry. All the time that he was there I was angry.

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Until around May. I befriended him again on Facebook. I didn't want to

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hear Syria. I didn't want anything that would remind me of that. That

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is the emotional part of it. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't

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want to hear it at all. Because I cannot figure it out. And I was not

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just angry with my son living - eleaving, I was angry at the fact

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that he was able to take a 15 years old passport that wasn't his and

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travel with it and they let him go like that. I was angry for

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everything. And up to this day, I haven't got any answer and nobody

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has had the guts to take responsibility, that yes, this

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happened was not supposed to happen. It was wrong. That anger is in me up

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to now. But the anger of my son went since the day I heard about his

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death. Each day I pray for him that God forgive him and have mercy on

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him. But the anger... For him not being helped from himself is in me

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for letting him travel with a 15 years old passport. That was a big

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blunder. You have both lost a son. There are many differences in both

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cases, what would you say to anybody who's, any young man, British young

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man, who might be considering going to Syria whether to fight against

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IS, or for Jihadi groups like them? Don't go. That simple. Why? I can't

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speak for people wanting to join IS, in my opinion it is a bad

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organisation, so people shouldn't want to, in terms of supporting the

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Kurds, the Kurds have made good progress, their area is liberated

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and they're assisting in the liberation of other areas and things

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have moved on. I don't think it is as vital they have support and I

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wouldn't want other mums to be in our position. I will say you just

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are growing up. A lot of things have happened before you were born.

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History and so you don't know much. I will say think and don't follow

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your own desire, think about your loved ones, think about your parents

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before you make the devastation that you will leave them in and your

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siblings and just packing your bag one day and you leave like that, I

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think say about that and I will say... I will ask the question,

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if... If they're really thinking about going, have they talked to

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themselves, which good will it bring? And I want them to ask my son

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that went and others that have gone and look at the situation today in

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Syria was them going there worth it? Have they solved the problem? Have

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they saved the people? Are they not suffering now more than ever before?

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I want them to ask themselves that question. Even if you're going to

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help and you want to help, you have to say will the help, will the help

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cause more harm than good? Look at our situation, it is something we

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are going to live with for the rest of our lives. My son made that

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decision. He was young. I know he was just a human being. I am a human

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being, I have made mistakes as well. I don't blame him for that for the

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rest of his life, I ask dpod to forgive -- God to forgive. But

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listening to a total stranger and not listening to his mum, who looked

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after him and listen to my advice. He just left without even saying

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goodbye. Without even telling me. So think about that. Are you that

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courageous to put your parent through that. Do you not love your

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family enough for you to save them from that agony and from the stigma

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of you going to such a place. No one is saying don't help, there are

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other ways to help. There are a lot of other waifs to contribute and

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whether you are helping people or not, there should be no way that you

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should cause harm to the innocent. I don't care. Can I ask you both how

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you want the House of Commons to vote after this debate today? Close

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air support has been supportive of the Kurdish people in liberating in

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areas where they were oppressed by a none Syria army. It would help the

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Kurds and the democratic force free up areas and cut the supply lines to

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Raqqa and so fewer people would have to die in Raqqa. I think we should

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do that. Britain are going to be responsible as far as they can be

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whether we go in or not. The people of Raqqa will be bombed by the

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Russians and by Assad and whoever, at least the British have, I have

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strong faith they will try to minimise civilian casualties and we

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also need to do that in conskrungs with looking -- conjunction at

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looking at Turkey's role in bombing Kurdish people. You want a yes. Yes.

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All the experts say is looking likely. What about you? For me, it

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is definitely a no. Going to war has never been the solution. It will not

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be the solution and will never be the solution. War is a lose, lose

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situation. It is never bring good news. War is bad. And you know I am

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confused that they're sitting voting to go and bomb, I ask myself, it is

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like saying we are going to holiday, we are going four holiday, these are

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people they are going to bomb. The 80% of the people that suffer in war

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are the innocent civilians. And so the bomb cannot pick and choose. For

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me, it is a total no and for me, I don't care which government Isis,

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suicide bomber, whatever they call themselves, they all as equally

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guilty of having innocent blood on their hands. So I don't care, as

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long as the innocent have to pay for crime that they didn't commit I am

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not in for it. I'm not supporting any group. Thank you both very much.

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Do let us know how you wantior MP to vote and I will read your comments.

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Coming up: Does labelling the calories, fat and sugar in packaged

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foods go any way to tackling childhood obesity or are we still as

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Now the main news. MPs will vote on whether to ors air strikes in Syria.

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The Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said the UK was already involved

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in the fight against IS, whether we liked it or not.

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The question is whether we will take the fight to them or wait here in

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London until they bring the fight to us as they did to our French

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colleagues in Paris. The Prime Minister is expected to

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win a majority but Labour is demanding

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an apology after he described some MPs who oppose action as "

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a bunch of terrorist sympathisers". A senior Scotland Yard officer says

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firearms police might have to "walk over casualties" to deal with

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the threat in the event She was speaking after

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a training exercise to test the way armed officers would deal with

:15:43.:15:48.

an incident in a shopping centre. governing body, Lord Coe, will give

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evidence to MPs investigating the sport's doping scandal this

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afternoon. He'll be questioned over the IAAF's response to allegations

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made by the Sunday Times in August. Now the sport. In cricket, the good

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news continues for England and Wales. 2015 saw a return to form and

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the year's been capped off by three players being named in the Test team

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of year. One man who didn't return to form in 2015 is Tiger Woods, he

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won 14 golf majors, but they seem a distant memory. He slipped to 4

:16:44.:16:47.

hundred in the world and he said there is no time table for a return

:16:48.:16:53.

to golf after surgery on his back. He said he spends most of his time

:16:54.:16:58.

playing video games. So he could be facing the end of one of sport's

:16:59.:17:01.

greatest ever players. This almost brought a tear to my eye, here is a

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moment that a snooker player missed a final ball to seal a first maximum

:17:10.:17:18.

break and ?44,000. All of that and the League Cup goals coming up after

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10. Thank you for your e-mails. George

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says simply, do not bomb. This viewer says, I hope my MP in Bedford

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boats for the air strikes. Dorothy says, I want the SNP to vote for air

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strikes. France has asked Britain, how can any MP with a conscience

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vote no? Dawn says, no bombs, absolutely not. The vote is

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pointless. Cameron should offer a free vote and everyone should be

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voting on the same footing. The bombers will be killing innocent

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civilians, and Isil will have justification to attack the UK.

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Thank you buoyed those, keep them coming in. You can tweak, e-mail,

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text and the usual. his wife say they will give away 99%

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of their shares in the company to good causes, as they announce the

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birth of their daughter. They say they want to make the world

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a better place for their daughter to grow up in.

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Mr Zuckerberg made the announcement in an open letter to his daughter

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With me now is entrepreneur and philanthropist Marcelle Speller.

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She's put a lot of her wealth and time into charitable use

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since the selling of her very successful website Holiday Rentals

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and now runs a new organisation called Local Giving.com.

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Hello. Hello. It is not just charities, it is private investments

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and other nonprofit organisations, what do you think about their move?

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It is brilliant. It is a great example to other people who have got

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a lot of money who can start doing philanthropy and charity. Also

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investments. You cannot spend ?30 billion overnight. You have to think

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about your strategy about how you are going to do it. He has already

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done a lot of thinking because he has mentioned the areas he is

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interested in. If you make investments in companies that are

:20:44.:20:51.

also forwarding your ambition, he will not be investing in tobacco or

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arms, he will be investing in other entrepreneurs and his money will be

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growing. That is fine, it is a great bit of news. He has been inspired by

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the birth of his daughter, what inspired you? How much was it if you

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do not mind me asking? It is hard to say, about 20 million. That depends

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on the share price. Shares can go down as well as up. For me it was my

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mother. I made this money quite late in my life. My mother was Dutch and

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mother. I made this money quite late war and she spent the rest of her

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life looking after people in her own way. That is why I think this is

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wonderful he is doing this for his daughter. I went on a course after I

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made my money and it was a group of about 15 people who wanted to be

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strategic in their giving. The first night we got together and they said,

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why are you doing this? 99% set my parents, my mother, my father. The

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fact he is doing it for his child means he is educating the next

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generation. That is where I got my philanthropy from. I think it is

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great that this little baby is inspiring them to do the same. I do

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not know you, we have never met before. When you wake up in the

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morning do you amazing because of what you have done? Do you feel

:22:24.:22:31.

morally superior to anyone else? I have had fun. I have had more fun

:22:32.:22:36.

giving away money then making it. Trying to make it is not so much fun

:22:37.:22:41.

because you do not know if you will be making it, looking back I also

:22:42.:22:47.

thought, can I pay my mortgage? I have had such fun giving. I have

:22:48.:22:55.

also used technology to harness my money. I set up local giving for

:22:56.:23:00.

small, local charities, giving them the power big charities tab to fund

:23:01.:23:09.

raise online, to get direct debits, and keep going. They are dependent

:23:10.:23:13.

on grants and grounds are disappearing. I am using technology

:23:14.:23:18.

to help other philanthropists give to charity and doing it in a very

:23:19.:23:23.

cost-effective way. It is great that I have put together my knowledge and

:23:24.:23:29.

my business experience and my money to do something that is a wonderful

:23:30.:23:33.

legacy. It will go on for a long time and it makes me feel great.

:23:34.:23:37.

Thank you very much for coming on the programme. Four men had been

:23:38.:23:46.

arrested in Luton on suspicion of committing offences under the

:23:47.:23:49.

terrorism act. The arrests were carried out in a joint operation.

:23:50.:23:58.

The men, all in their 30s, were arrested on suspicion of being

:23:59.:24:01.

involved in the commission, preparation and instigation of acts

:24:02.:24:05.

of terrorism and they are in custody at the moment in London. In Luton

:24:06.:24:10.

seven searches are being conducted at seven separate addresses and

:24:11.:24:14.

mumble of vehicles are also being searched. It is part of an ongoing,

:24:15.:24:21.

proactive investigation concerning individuals in the Luton area and is

:24:22.:24:25.

not connected to the recent attacks in Paris. Four men arrested in Luton

:24:26.:24:30.

this morning on suspicion of committing offences under the

:24:31.:24:32.

Throughout the programme we're asking how do you want

:24:33.:24:38.

We'll be hearing your thoughts on the whether Britain should

:24:39.:24:45.

There are still many MPs who remain unconvinced of the need

:24:46.:24:52.

for air strikes and one of their key concerns is whether

:24:53.:24:55.

British military boots may, in the end, be needed on the ground.

:24:56.:24:57.

Here's the former head of the armed forces:

:24:58.:25:06.

The Foreign Secretary said it will not happen. Ultimately Colonel

:25:07.:25:13.

Dannat is right, we can degrade Isil by air attacks and we can reduce

:25:14.:25:19.

their ability to carry out plots and attacks against the West and that

:25:20.:25:23.

has to be our first priority, to keep Britain safe, but in the long

:25:24.:25:28.

run we want to see the organisation destroyed and for that to happen

:25:29.:25:32.

there will need to be a ground assault on Raqqa. We are absolutely

:25:33.:25:36.

clear that British forces will not be committed to ground combat in

:25:37.:25:41.

Syria. That would be unhelpful and inappropriate. What we need to do is

:25:42.:25:47.

pursued two tracks. A military track against Isil know to keep Britain

:25:48.:25:52.

safe and to degrade the organisation, and a political tract

:25:53.:25:55.

in the Vienna talks to end the Syrian Civil War, bring the

:25:56.:26:00.

opposition forces that are fighting Assad alongside the Syrian army, so

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that once Assad has gone, the Syrians, working together, can

:26:08.:26:12.

reclaim their territory from occupation by Isil and can destroy

:26:13.:26:15.

this evil organisation once and for all. David Cameron said that after

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bomb it up to 70,000 moderate Syrian fighters would be available to fight

:26:25.:26:26.

against ideas on the ground. There was no detail

:26:27.:26:30.

on who the fighters are, where they're fighting,

:26:31.:26:32.

and what sort of relationships these so-called moderate groups have

:26:33.:26:34.

to IS, or even al-Qaeda. Here's some background on how IS

:26:35.:26:37.

might be tackled on the ground, The Syrian situation is more

:26:38.:27:28.

complicated, but there are some ground troops and other troops that

:27:29.:27:32.

are able to take action against Isil.

:27:33.:27:49.

The suggestion that there are 70,000 non-Islamist, moderate ground forces

:27:50.:27:59.

I have to say is a revelation to me and I suspect most other members in

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this house. The Prime Minister has talked about 70,000 Free Syrian Army

:28:05.:28:08.

troops. How many of those are on the front line in Syria as opposed to

:28:09.:28:12.

Syrian regime forces? We saw a map there

:28:13.:28:34.

in Adam's film and it's worth having As you can see it's

:28:35.:28:38.

an incredibly confusing picture - the beige colour shows areas

:28:39.:28:48.

controlled by Islamic State. Then at the top

:28:49.:28:55.

in pink are the Kurdish controlled groups - they're not included in

:28:56.:29:00.

David Cameron's 70,000 figure To the west the pale blue areas are

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still controlled by the regime of Bashar al Assad,

:29:05.:29:20.

and to the north and south of those You fought with Kurdish fighters in

:29:21.:29:42.

Iraq and Syria against I S. We have got a doctor who specialises in War

:29:43.:29:47.

studies. In Manchester, Simon Turner was an RAF pilot and flew over the

:29:48.:29:52.

no-fly zone is in Iraq in 1991 and also conducted armed missions.

:29:53.:29:59.

How credible is this 70 thousand figure. The map is correct, the

:30:00.:30:07.

Green Zones on the map have 70,000 men who have picked up weapons

:30:08.:30:13.

against Assad and are not radical. But this is not an army, these are

:30:14.:30:21.

70,000 armed men. They don't operate under one command and may not be

:30:22.:30:25.

willing to move across Syria to where Isis is and they may not have

:30:26.:30:32.

the ideological motivation to fight Isis in the way they fight Assad.

:30:33.:30:37.

And they're fighting against president Assad at the moment. What

:30:38.:30:43.

would be the motivation for them to change and fight Isis? Well, I would

:30:44.:30:49.

say that it would depend on the location in which they would be

:30:50.:30:54.

fighting. In some places they have fought some of the moderate groups

:30:55.:30:59.

have fought with troops of Assad against Isis. It depends on

:31:00.:31:06.

geography and the vested interested on the ground and we have to admit

:31:07.:31:16.

most of groups have a priority to fight Assad and not Islamic State.

:31:17.:31:24.

You went to fight there, is it your view after any air strikes, a decent

:31:25.:31:31.

ground force is essential to defeat Isis? Absolutely. Air strikes only

:31:32.:31:38.

go so far. We have hit individual targets, but it does p take ground.

:31:39.:31:46.

So we need people on the ground and a YPG, a Syria significant force in

:31:47.:31:50.

Syria are not included in the figures and it is crazy. Why? Well,

:31:51.:31:58.

for a start, they have had the most success against Islamic State and

:31:59.:32:03.

have taken most of land and they believe in is secular values and

:32:04.:32:07.

democracy and freedom. They're the people we want to ally ourselves

:32:08.:32:11.

with in the region and not including them in the figures is a poor thing

:32:12.:32:18.

to do. Simon Turner, what is your view about how much RAF bombing

:32:19.:32:23.

missions can cut off the head of the Isis snake as David Cameron put it?

:32:24.:32:30.

Well obviously they can only do things, they're only as good as the

:32:31.:32:34.

intelligence they're provided with. So frankly if on the ground we have

:32:35.:32:40.

disparate forces and the intelligence is unreliable then the

:32:41.:32:44.

targeting process will be unreliable. If we can get reliable

:32:45.:32:50.

intelligence, they can target effectively. So how do you get that

:32:51.:32:56.

intelligence? That is being supplied by ground forces who are potentially

:32:57.:33:01.

disparate and communication will be difficult, and also the fact that we

:33:02.:33:07.

have airborne assets which are gathering value, otherwise we

:33:08.:33:09.

wouldn't be able to make the strikes that have been made. There are

:33:10.:33:14.

numerous assets out there in the air that will gather intelligence and it

:33:15.:33:19.

can be analysed real time and effectively. Is it inevitable that

:33:20.:33:24.

innocent... Don't go away, we are still talking ing to you. It is OK

:33:25.:33:32.

we are turning the lights on. Is it inevitable that innocent people will

:33:33.:33:39.

be killed, irrespective of how the good the intelligence is. All we can

:33:40.:33:46.

hope nor is an increasing military effort against Isis will decrease

:33:47.:33:50.

the numbers killed than if we did nothing. I can't imagine that Isis

:33:51.:33:58.

would not be using human as fields. Is there a way around that? There

:33:59.:34:05.

is, working on a policy that unifies the 70,000 fighters and creates a

:34:06.:34:11.

political process and the YPG works under a civil local administration

:34:12.:34:16.

that manages the troops. If something similar is done on the

:34:17.:34:19.

other side, that would be important. We need to protect the 70,000 from

:34:20.:34:27.

the more radical groups on the ground that share logistic and

:34:28.:34:31.

sometimes share trenches with them. We will talk about the political

:34:32.:34:38.

sides later. But for I now thank you. Nor Norman Smith is at

:34:39.:34:52.

Westminster. I wonder how much difference cushion is still around

:34:53.:34:58.

the 70,000. I suspect it is Achilles heel in David Cameron's argument.

:34:59.:35:03.

There is scepticism about who the forces are and whether they would

:35:04.:35:07.

work together and would be interested in fighting Isis rather

:35:08.:35:13.

than president Assad. Major, major doubts about that. You get the sense

:35:14.:35:19.

actually that in the past 24 hours actually the opponents of air

:35:20.:35:24.

strikes have just got a bit more sort of oomph behind them on the

:35:25.:35:28.

argument and David Cameron's comments last night when at a

:35:29.:35:35.

private meeting he dubbed opponents as terrorist sympathisers that has

:35:36.:35:38.

backfired. The last element, and this is relevant on the Labour side,

:35:39.:35:45.

there has been a onslaught on social media against prowar Labour MPs. One

:35:46.:35:52.

Mike Gapes who is in hospital and seriously ill has received a torrent

:35:53.:36:00.

of abuse. Another had a mob outside her pressure. Jeremy Corbyn's people

:36:01.:36:03.

have said they think people should be respectful, but there are calls

:36:04.:36:07.

for the party to expel these individuals from the Labour Party.

:36:08.:36:11.

But let me mull some of that over with the shadow Defence Secretary

:36:12.:36:15.

Maria Eagle. First the 70,000 figure. That is a problem for people

:36:16.:36:19.

like you who believe we should take military action? I think the Prime

:36:20.:36:25.

Minister has to convince the House today in rather better style than he

:36:26.:36:29.

has so far about what he asserted on that. That is one of reasons why

:36:30.:36:35.

colleagues on all sides of the House have come to the condition collusion

:36:36.:36:41.

-- conclusion they cannot support the proposals. He has a chance today

:36:42.:36:46.

to get his arguments lined up and convince people. It is

:36:47.:36:52.

understandable why people are uneasy, the fear is at the end of

:36:53.:36:56.

the day it could be British and western troops who have to go there.

:36:57.:37:01.

I think these are some of the fears that those who say he has not made

:37:02.:37:07.

the case have. Well he has the evidence and it is up to him to

:37:08.:37:10.

convince people. He has a chance to do that. Let's talk about the Labour

:37:11.:37:16.

side. You will be arguing for action. But I feeling is you're in

:37:17.:37:22.

the minority in the Labour Party. Well, I approach this as all MPs do

:37:23.:37:27.

with calm consideration and serious thought about what this will mean

:37:28.:37:32.

for the country. We have an obligation to defend our citizens

:37:33.:37:38.

and our way of life. The UN have asked those who are capable to take

:37:39.:37:45.

all necessary measures to deal with Daesh and Isis. And I am convinced

:37:46.:37:51.

that the threat from Isil to our people, both here and abroad is

:37:52.:37:55.

rising, is significant and is directed from there. So I believe we

:37:56.:37:59.

have an obligation to deal with that. Now, colleagues in the Labour

:38:00.:38:04.

Party and across parties will come to a different view, but I say this,

:38:05.:38:11.

this decision is not taken likely by any members of Parliament, one of

:38:12.:38:16.

the most serious votes you can cast whether to put our armed services in

:38:17.:38:21.

harm's way and nobody takes that decision likely -- lightly. It is

:38:22.:38:28.

best taken in an atmosphere of calm consideration and mutual respect for

:38:29.:38:33.

different positions and the way in which the Prime Minister demeaned

:38:34.:38:37.

his office by saying what he said has not helped in that respect.

:38:38.:38:44.

Thank you. It will be a passionate debate. David Cameron may be on

:38:45.:38:49.

course to win it, but he still has a lot of difficult and searching

:38:50.:38:53.

questions to answer. Thank you. Back with you, I know you're off to the

:38:54.:38:56.

lobby now to talk to MPs. Calories, energy, salt,

:38:57.:39:01.

fat and sugar. Knowing whether food is good or bad

:39:02.:39:03.

for you should, you'd think, be fairly straightforward, but

:39:04.:39:06.

obesity is soaring and all this week The way

:39:07.:39:08.

our packaged food is labelled is a real battleground between health

:39:09.:39:12.

campaigners and food manufacturers. Two years ago,

:39:13.:39:15.

the government did a deal with industry to put colour coded

:39:16.:39:18.

warnings on the front of packs. That voluntary agreement comes

:39:19.:39:22.

into force in full this Christmas, but some manufacturers have been

:39:23.:39:24.

using it for a while. So has it made any difference so far

:39:25.:39:26.

or are we still as confused as ever? One medical condition will soon cost

:39:27.:39:30.

us more than smoking, The country's most senior doctor has

:39:31.:39:40.

warned that overweight is fast becoming the norm in British

:39:41.:39:56.

society. So the question - for government,

:39:57.:40:05.

for doctors, for the food industry, and for us -

:40:06.:40:08.

how do we start to tackle what many think is the biggest threat to

:40:09.:40:11.

public health of the 21st century? It takes an average

:40:12.:40:18.

of 15 seconds for us to decide what Position, price,

:40:19.:40:21.

even smell are important, but research shows it's often packaging

:40:22.:40:28.

that is the crucial factor. At a flat in South London,

:40:29.:40:39.

my four-year-old daughter is here, along with other children

:40:40.:40:41.

and their parents, who've all agreed to

:40:42.:40:46.

speak to us today. Anything with Frozen she will try

:40:47.:40:49.

and go for, bright colours she likes to go for, anything with, like,

:40:50.:40:52.

characters on it. It's about making a choice quickly

:40:53.:40:58.

in the supermarket, so particularly when I've got children with me,

:40:59.:41:01.

I need to do it really quickly, because my opportunity for choosing

:41:02.:41:04.

is such a small window. Eating well can be a confusing

:41:05.:41:08.

business - from next year, all foods will have to carry nutritional

:41:09.:41:12.

information on the back of the pack. In this country,

:41:13.:41:15.

most do that already, but the real Two years ago, the Government did

:41:16.:41:18.

a deal with the food industry to This panel shows the amount of fat,

:41:19.:41:25.

sugar and salt as a percent of the recommended daily amount

:41:26.:41:32.

for an adult. It is coloured green, amber and red,

:41:33.:41:35.

so has become known I much prefer

:41:36.:41:38.

when I see the colours, because at a glance I will see how much

:41:39.:41:42.

sugar or fat is in it, I don't mind if it's got sugar or fat in, I just

:41:43.:41:47.

need to know so that I can compare I think it is easier to understand,

:41:48.:41:51.

because obviously red looks like danger and so on, but I don't

:41:52.:41:55.

really follow that, to be honest. Once again,

:41:56.:41:58.

it's all in moderation... As long as it's in moderation,

:41:59.:42:00.

it's not too bad. But to force companies to use

:42:01.:42:04.

the traffic-light system would mean changing EU law in Brussels,

:42:05.:42:07.

so this front-of-pack stuff is The big four supermarkets have now

:42:08.:42:12.

all signed up for their own-label products,

:42:13.:42:18.

but Iceland doesn't use the system, M doesn't use it for all of

:42:19.:42:22.

its food range, and you'll struggle to find those warning colours on

:42:23.:42:25.

many of the largest branded goods. So has that traffic-light

:42:26.:42:28.

system really worked? Well, here on the table are

:42:29.:42:32.

some well-known brands. This group over here all use

:42:33.:42:36.

the traffic-light system in full. That includes Coke, Pepsi,

:42:37.:42:38.

Dolmio and other well-known This middle group just don't use

:42:39.:42:41.

the system whatsoever, brands like Cadbury, many Mars

:42:42.:42:47.

products, and Heinz as well. Then you have this third group over

:42:48.:42:51.

here, and it is Now, they do put all the data,

:42:52.:42:54.

all the numbers on the front of the pack, but they don't use

:42:55.:42:59.

the colour coding, so you can end up in a situation where you have

:43:00.:43:03.

competing products, here two This one here shows up amber

:43:04.:43:05.

and red for fat and sugar, this one here doesn't whatsoever,

:43:06.:43:12.

even though the ingredients are We asked some of those firms

:43:13.:43:16.

why they refused to sign up. Mars said it does use it

:43:17.:43:20.

on products sold only in the UK. Cadbury says it complies with

:43:21.:43:23.

European legislative requirements. Heinz said using it on foods like

:43:24.:43:27.

sauces, where the serving size is And McVities said it does not

:43:28.:43:30.

believe colour coding based on 100 grams, or seven digestive

:43:31.:43:38.

biscuits, is helpful. Isn't part of the problem that

:43:39.:43:42.

many of your members just refuse Well, the traffic-light labelling

:43:43.:43:45.

system itself isn't universally acknowledged as the best way

:43:46.:43:51.

of doing it. 90% of our members have front

:43:52.:43:53.

and back labelling that covers that information, but some of them choose

:43:54.:43:57.

to do it in different ways. And one of the reasons they

:43:58.:44:00.

might do it in different ways is they are producing products here

:44:01.:44:03.

that are to be sold in Europe. The trouble is,

:44:04.:44:06.

there are so many different views amongst shoppers and consumers

:44:07.:44:08.

about what they actually want. All this can get even more complex

:44:09.:44:11.

when it comes to foods which are sold with

:44:12.:44:15.

an implicit health benefit. The market for cereal bars is now

:44:16.:44:19.

worth around ?500 million a year and growing fast as we all have

:44:20.:44:24.

less time for breakfast. These are often sold next to muesli

:44:25.:44:27.

and cornflakes in the cereal aisle, but campaigners say the level

:44:28.:44:35.

of sugars in some of these products means they should be treated in the

:44:36.:44:37.

same way as sweets or chocolate. Is it possible to compare

:44:38.:44:40.

these to confectionery? It's interesting you say that,

:44:41.:44:42.

because they are more When we look at the school-food

:44:43.:44:49.

standards that have been implemented over the last year or so in schools,

:44:50.:44:52.

it actually categorises all these products as confectionery, so if say

:44:53.:44:55.

cereal bars are confectionery, they are not allowed to be supplied

:44:56.:44:58.

in schools to children at all. So that kind of already gives you

:44:59.:45:03.

an indication, actually, these product are not as healthy

:45:04.:45:05.

as you might think they are. But take this whole table

:45:06.:45:08.

of cereal bars. Some of the others do have

:45:09.:45:15.

numbers on the front, but none of If we take a product like this, if

:45:16.:45:23.

you were to colour code that, where If we were to colour code it for

:45:24.:45:27.

sugars, it would be red, and the reason for that, the colour coding

:45:28.:45:37.

system works on 100 grams, and then if we turn it around, for it to get

:45:38.:45:40.

a colour code of red, it would have to be over 22.5 grams of sugar, and

:45:41.:45:44.

this has 28, so definitely a red. It's by far, I believe,

:45:45.:45:50.

one of the best systems around the world - if it is

:45:51.:45:54.

implemented consistently across all What we would like to see is for all

:45:55.:45:57.

of them to have front-of-pack colour-coded labelling,

:45:58.:46:05.

and therefore allow the consumer to make an informed choice at a glance

:46:06.:46:09.

very quickly when they are shopping, Again, we asked the makers

:46:10.:46:15.

of these products for a response. Kellogg's made the point

:46:16.:46:18.

its snack bars are much smaller than 100 grams in size

:46:19.:46:21.

and said all its food is clearly The makers of Go Ahead said

:46:22.:46:24.

a similar thing - offering clear information per biscuit is

:46:25.:46:31.

the best way to give customers The makers of Nature Valley referred

:46:32.:46:33.

us to the industry trade body, which said shoppers need to read

:46:34.:46:38.

the label to understand how these Confusion still reigns, though,

:46:39.:46:43.

with different systems, different Next year,

:46:44.:46:47.

we understand the industry trade body will make a fresh push to get

:46:48.:46:53.

its members to sign up with Whether those members agree this

:46:54.:46:56.

time around remains to be seen. You can watch all of all our series

:46:57.:47:06.

on Sugar films by our reporter and later we'll be talking to

:47:07.:47:09.

Public Health England who are tasked with protecting and improving

:47:10.:47:14.

the nation's health and wellbeing. It has been a mild start to

:47:15.:47:42.

December. It will be much brighter in the afternoon in the South East,

:47:43.:47:46.

but that rain will linger in north east England and Wales. Back in the

:47:47.:47:52.

south east there is a fair bit of sunshine around. It is quite mild at

:47:53.:48:01.

12, 13 or 14. Further north temperatures will fall this

:48:02.:48:03.

afternoon and they will fall even further overnight. Meanwhile, this

:48:04.:48:10.

band of rain keeps things soggy over northern England and Wales, but it

:48:11.:48:19.

keeps things milder in the South. -5 is possible in the Scottish glens

:48:20.:48:26.

tonight. It will be cold, but there will be sunshine. This area of rain

:48:27.:48:30.

will not give up and it potentially could bring problems. The south and

:48:31.:48:38.

East is dry, and there will be further spells of wet and windy

:48:39.:48:40.

weather to come into the weekend. As MPs prepared to vote on air

:48:41.:48:53.

strikes in Syria, a mother whose son died in the conflict tells us why

:48:54.:49:00.

there is so much at stake. A suicide bomber, whatever they call

:49:01.:49:06.

themselves, they are all as equally guilty of having innocent blood on

:49:07.:49:14.

their hands. We want you to tell us what you want your MP to do in

:49:15.:49:18.

that, and spoke tonight. A judge has ruled that a 50-year-old woman has

:49:19.:49:26.

ruled that a woman can refuse to receive dialysis treatment because

:49:27.:49:28.

she is worried about growing old. MPs will vote later on whether to

:49:29.:49:31.

authorise UK air strikes against The Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond

:49:32.:49:37.

said the UK was already involved in the fight against IS,

:49:38.:49:41.

whether we liked it or not. The question now is whether we are

:49:42.:49:47.

going to take the fight to them in their HQ or whether we are going to

:49:48.:49:51.

wait here in London until they bring the fight to us, as they did to our

:49:52.:49:54.

French colleagues in Paris. The Prime Minister is expected to

:49:55.:49:58.

win a majority in favour But Labour is demanding

:49:59.:50:00.

an apology after he described some MPs who oppose action as "a bunch

:50:01.:50:03.

of terrorist sympathisers". Four men in their 30s have been

:50:04.:50:23.

arrested in Luton on suspicion of preparing to terror attack. It is an

:50:24.:50:27.

ongoing investigation and is not linked to the Paris terror attacks.

:50:28.:50:34.

A judge has ruled that a woman is right to have refused the dialysis

:50:35.:50:39.

treatment she needs to receive. She felt she wanted to die and had lost

:50:40.:50:43.

her sparkle and did not want to get old. More on that after 10:30am this

:50:44.:50:46.

morning. governing body, Lord Coe, will give

:50:47.:50:48.

evidence to MPs investigating the sport's doping scandal this

:50:49.:50:52.

afternoon. He'll be questioned over the IAAF's response to allegations

:50:53.:50:55.

made by the Sunday Times in August. his wife say they will give away 99%

:50:56.:50:58.

of their shares in the company to good causes, as they announce the

:50:59.:51:03.

birth of their daughter. They say they want to make the world

:51:04.:51:07.

a better place for their daughter to Now it is time for the sport. It may

:51:08.:51:21.

feel as though England's cricket team has had a mixed season, but

:51:22.:51:25.

Alastair Cook has been named as the captain of the ICC team of the year.

:51:26.:51:33.

He is the current leading test run scorer in 2015 and he skippered

:51:34.:51:38.

England to victory in the Ashes. The site includes Stuart Broad and Joe

:51:39.:51:42.

Root. Joe Root is the sole Englishman in the side, but as the

:51:43.:51:53.

12th man. All 3pm rare league sides in action last night emerged

:51:54.:51:55.

unscathed against championship opposition. Manchester City beat

:51:56.:52:07.

Hull 4-1. Every beat Middlesborough 2-0. The young Spaniard scored this

:52:08.:52:20.

goal. The turbulent times of the former number one golfer Tiger Woods

:52:21.:52:26.

have been documented, but now he says he has nothing to look forward

:52:27.:52:32.

to as he recovers from surgery. He has had two back operations in the

:52:33.:52:36.

last 18 months to reduce trapped nerve. There is no timetable for

:52:37.:52:42.

this. That has been the hardest mindset adjustment. Where is the

:52:43.:52:49.

light at the end of the panel? I do not know. I have had to reset the

:52:50.:52:52.

clock each and every day and I have said, this is a new day, let's take

:52:53.:52:58.

it for what it is. I listen to my surgeon and my physios and I take it

:52:59.:53:04.

day by day. Imagine you are set for the ultimate grandstand moment in

:53:05.:53:09.

snooker, a 147 break, and you are standing over the final black. For

:53:10.:53:19.

the maximum and ?44,000. Oh, no! Would you believe it? The ?44,000

:53:20.:53:31.

bonus which have been silver lining as he lost the game eventually. He

:53:32.:53:37.

also said he was not aware of the cash prize. So close, but so far.

:53:38.:53:46.

He did it again too quickly. Can we see it again? I thought it was too

:53:47.:53:51.

fast. Usually when you are on the final

:53:52.:54:05.

black after 147 you are in your group. I am reading so many e-mails

:54:06.:54:25.

about the boat in Syria. Polly says, I want our government to target and

:54:26.:54:30.

destroy IS by every means we have, short of putting our troops at

:54:31.:54:36.

risk. Tony on twitter, regrettably there is no alternative if we want

:54:37.:54:41.

to protect our long-term security. John says, I do not think the case

:54:42.:54:45.

has been made and I have asked my MP to vote against. KR on Twitter, do

:54:46.:54:52.

not bomb Syria, or innocence will be killed. Think of your children, Mr

:54:53.:54:59.

Cameron, and then push the button. Kim says, I want my MP to vote a

:55:00.:55:06.

definite no. It will create more problems, including more refugees.

:55:07.:55:11.

Innocence will be killed and it will not read the work of terrorists. In

:55:12.:55:15.

fact, it may even inspire more people to become one. As a Syrian

:55:16.:55:20.

woman said earlier, dealing with the Assad regime first is at the heart

:55:21.:55:25.

of it all, not for getting the odd and the money.

:55:26.:55:35.

So the Prime Minister says that air strikes would be an act

:55:36.:55:40.

of self-defence, that Britain is already a target

:55:41.:55:42.

for IS terrorists - look at what happened to British tourists

:55:43.:55:45.

And that France, one of our main allies, has asked for our help.

:55:46.:55:49.

But, David Cameron says he's not just looking

:55:50.:55:51.

Britain will also step up efforts in helping secure peace in the

:55:52.:55:56.

country, with the aim of free and fair elections in 18 months time.

:55:57.:55:59.

Critics say the peace process should take

:56:00.:56:01.

priority and that military action makes us more of a terror target.

:56:02.:56:04.

But when air strikes have the potential to cause

:56:05.:56:08.

so much damage, what steps need to be taken to ensure the country can

:56:09.:56:11.

It is imperative to accelerate all diplomatic efforts to end the war.

:56:12.:56:49.

Humanitarian access must be assured through out the territory of Syria.

:56:50.:57:26.

Assad is the figurehead, he is the head of the regime. Take him out,

:57:27.:57:30.

but he is still left with an opportunity to rebuild their

:57:31.:57:42.

country? We are wasting our time. Let's look more closely now

:57:43.:57:56.

at the humanitarian and diplomatic efforts which the PM says are just

:57:57.:57:59.

as important as military action. In terms

:58:00.:58:02.

of diplomacy that effectively revolves around talks in Vienna

:58:03.:58:03.

involving countries like Iran, Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, the

:58:04.:58:05.

US, France, the UK but not Syria. Professor Nadia Al-Ali is

:58:06.:58:08.

a specialist in the Middle East and Women's Studies from

:58:09.:58:11.

SOAS London University. Matthew Morris is

:58:12.:58:12.

from the International Committee In Salford is Yasmine Nulahwee

:58:13.:58:14.

from Rethink Rebuild, a Syrian The talks in Vienna are about trying

:58:15.:58:20.

to establish firstly a ceasefire between President Assad's army

:58:21.:58:26.

and rebel fighters, a transitional government in place within six

:58:27.:58:29.

months before securing a transition to an inclusive government in Syria

:58:30.:58:32.

that represents everyone through free and fair elections

:58:33.:58:35.

in 18 months. I do not think so. First of all, I

:58:36.:58:53.

should say lots of people were not sitting around that table. Women

:58:54.:58:59.

were not sitting around that table. Did you say women? Yes, where were

:59:00.:59:07.

the Syrian women? There were no Syrians. There were no Syrians

:59:08.:59:13.

either, so he is involved in these peace talks? Right now we have the

:59:14.:59:22.

only on the ground troops who are fighting Isil, who are Kurds. They

:59:23.:59:26.

are not involved in these negotiations either. They are not

:59:27.:59:33.

supported right now. If anything, Western governments, including this

:59:34.:59:36.

country, as Turkey is attacking the Kurds. This whole thing does not

:59:37.:59:44.

make sense. We know that military intervention without a close look at

:59:45.:59:48.

what is happening on the ground will create much more chaos and violence.

:59:49.:59:55.

Even though there is a military track as David Cameron would like

:59:56.:00:00.

there to be, there is a political and diplomatic track, David Cameron

:00:01.:00:05.

talks about the humanitarian track. You say what is missing is an

:00:06.:00:08.

immediate plan for rebuilding on the ground? What is missing is stopping

:00:09.:00:16.

the double standards and hypocrisy and support the people fighting

:00:17.:00:22.

Isil, the Kurds. Second is to be included in the peace talks and

:00:23.:00:25.

include the Syrian opposition and Syrian women. Syrian women are

:00:26.:00:31.

organised inside the country. That cannot be sustainable peace if women

:00:32.:00:32.

are not involved. What do you think about the peace

:00:33.:00:45.

talks and whether they can work? In looking at the past four or five

:00:46.:00:49.

years of the conflict, the only time that talks have worked is in 2013

:00:50.:00:55.

when we backed up the talks with the threat of military force. Assad has

:00:56.:01:01.

shown he will not uphold negotiations and we had numerous

:01:02.:01:05.

failed diplomatic efforts. I think that we are looking at the wrong

:01:06.:01:10.

picture, we are asking the wrong questions and saying we want to vote

:01:11.:01:20.

for air strikes against Isis. What are we doing about Assad. What the

:01:21.:01:24.

Prime Minister might say is we are going to work through over months to

:01:25.:01:28.

come up with free and fair elections. Well again negotiations

:01:29.:01:34.

in Syria have never succeeded if they were not backed by a credible

:01:35.:01:39.

threat of force. There is a credible threat of force and it may be

:01:40.:01:45.

extended if MPs vote here tonight. Not against the primary driver of

:01:46.:01:49.

the crisis. I understand against Assad. If we don't assess that

:01:50.:01:56.

threat we are not in a position to assess the threat of Isis. The

:01:57.:01:59.

Americans have been involved in the campaign for a year and what success

:02:00.:02:05.

have we seen? Nothing. Isis has grown in Syria. Can we re-evaluate

:02:06.:02:10.

our strategy and think of something that will work. Matthew Morris, the

:02:11.:02:19.

humanitarian side, we know 250,000 Syrians have already died in this

:02:20.:02:24.

civil war in the last four or five years, how does Britain joining in

:02:25.:02:30.

the bombing in Syria help the humanitarian crisis? Well, at the

:02:31.:02:38.

ICRC we work in a confidential way to talk to groups about the impact

:02:39.:02:42.

of the conduct of their hostilities. So that is something we would do

:02:43.:02:48.

behind the doors. I was on the border between Syria and Jordan and

:02:49.:02:53.

speaking to people fleeing a wide array of area and and people who had

:02:54.:02:58.

lost family members and homes, they had limited access to food and water

:02:59.:03:02.

and shelter and they were really in desperate need and then if you

:03:03.:03:06.

multiply what they were saying to other villages and towns and regions

:03:07.:03:14.

and then add in that this is such a complicated and ever changing

:03:15.:03:18.

conflict, you have a come Police Kated -- complicated situation. Any

:03:19.:03:23.

civilian in any conflict zone will be worried about where the next bomb

:03:24.:03:32.

may come from. Some of the figures are staggering, eight million people

:03:33.:03:40.

have been displaced. Four million perhaps have left and are living in

:03:41.:03:45.

other continue Rhys. We have the complicated situation of the people

:03:46.:03:49.

moving to Europe. The situation is very bleak. Can I come in here? I

:03:50.:04:00.

agree with Jasmine, most of the people are fleeing, because of the

:04:01.:04:04.

Assad regime. That doesn't in any way make Isis any less of a threat.

:04:05.:04:10.

But Isis doesn't just exist in Syria, but in Iraq, and here and we

:04:11.:04:15.

need to think more carefully. What will happen after the bombing of

:04:16.:04:21.

Raqqa is we are going to radicalise more people in Syria, because

:04:22.:04:26.

innocent civilians will be killed. Isis leaders will move to other

:04:27.:04:31.

places like Mosul, while the Assad regime will be stronger. But not if

:04:32.:04:35.

as David Cameron puts it the head of snake is cut off, they will be dead.

:04:36.:04:41.

No, there is no head of the snake. It is an animal, you cut one head

:04:42.:04:47.

and ten other heads come. It is Medusa. Can I ask you, what you

:04:48.:04:56.

think of the Prime Minister's main argument which is this would be an

:04:57.:05:00.

act of self-defence, Isis have already brought the fight to Britain

:05:01.:05:07.

and this is about us protecting our citizens. We have to realise that

:05:08.:05:13.

Isis and Assad have a very close relationship with each other and

:05:14.:05:18.

what we say of Syrians is they're two sides of the same coin. We

:05:19.:05:22.

couldn't be cutting off the head of the snake. What would happen in

:05:23.:05:30.

Syria is let's say we could get rid of Isis the conditions are such,

:05:31.:05:37.

because the ass jad regime continues -- Assad continues to cause

:05:38.:05:40.

destruction, the conditions are such that on the ground we would have the

:05:41.:05:44.

emergence of another radicalised group. Because that is what the

:05:45.:05:47.

situation is like. We need to look at the root cause of the

:05:48.:05:52.

radicalisation and what is causing it and that is the air attacks by

:05:53.:05:57.

the Assad regime. Unless we address those we cannot address the threat

:05:58.:06:05.

posed by Isis. Matthew, what is your main concern now as British voters

:06:06.:06:11.

await to see what MPs will do? Obviously our concern is that

:06:12.:06:15.

international humanitarian law, the laws of war are respected, there are

:06:16.:06:22.

three key pillars to that in any conflict. There has to be

:06:23.:06:28.

distinction between civilian objects and military objects and combatants.

:06:29.:06:33.

Easier said than done? Yes we have seen in recent years that it is very

:06:34.:06:38.

much easier said than done. But it has to be said and it has to be that

:06:39.:06:44.

we make this call that humanitarian law is respected. There has to be

:06:45.:06:49.

all precautions have to be taken when ever a military strike is

:06:50.:06:55.

conducted, that civilians and medical facilities are protected.

:06:56.:07:02.

Thank you all very much. Thank you for all your comments. This viewer

:07:03.:07:06.

said, I want my MP to vote against air strikes. I have asked him how he

:07:07.:07:12.

is voting, but he has not rely mid. John said I have asked my MP to vote

:07:13.:07:19.

against the bombing. One viewer said no to sending the RAF. Page said I

:07:20.:07:25.

want to know who Jeremy Corbyn wants us to talk to. Would he talk to Isis

:07:26.:07:29.

and give them their own state. What if that was not enough? And Karen

:07:30.:07:34.

said, I want my MP to vote against air strikes, because they're not a

:07:35.:07:37.

solution. No more killing. Thank you for those.

:07:38.:07:41.

Can you tell how much sugar you're consuming by looking

:07:42.:07:44.

at food packaging - or do the labels that are meant to help

:07:45.:07:47.

You can watch the entire series on sugar on our Facebook page. Now a

:07:48.:08:06.

story. A judge has ruled that

:08:07.:08:08.

a 50-year-old woman has the mental capacity, and the right,

:08:09.:08:10.

to refuse the kidney dialysis Our legal eagle Clive

:08:11.:08:13.

Coleman is here. Tell us about this case. It is a sad

:08:14.:08:23.

and extraordinary case. It doesn't change the law, but sad in the sense

:08:24.:08:28.

that this is a woman who has led an extraordinary high life. She has had

:08:29.:08:35.

a life revolving around her husbands, four husband, lover,

:08:36.:08:39.

possessions and live gt life which she calls a life of sparkle. Sadly,

:08:40.:08:45.

she tried to take her own life and did that by consuming pain killers

:08:46.:08:49.

washed down with champagne. She is now in a position where she needs

:08:50.:08:54.

life preserving kidney dialysis to survive. But she has made it clear

:08:55.:08:58.

she doesn't want to survive. She doesn't want to live a life where

:08:59.:09:04.

she has lost her sparkle and she is old. She has suffered financial

:09:05.:09:08.

problems, she will be poor and living in a council flat and ugly.

:09:09.:09:14.

She has set a huge store by her looks. The court of protection had

:09:15.:09:20.

to decide whether she had the mental capacity to to make a decision. I

:09:21.:09:26.

think the hospital were saying she didn't have the mental capacity? Yes

:09:27.:09:29.

the trust said she didn't have the capacity and she had a personality

:09:30.:09:37.

disorder. A history yonic personality disorder and was not

:09:38.:09:42.

able to weigh up the information. The The judge heard from

:09:43.:09:46.

psychiatrists and from the woman's daughters who have made it clear

:09:47.:09:49.

that they have spoken to their mother and their mother herself has

:09:50.:09:54.

made it clear she does not want to continue with her life if she can't

:09:55.:10:02.

live this life of sparkle. It is not about assisting dying or a doctor

:10:03.:10:09.

taking a positive step to assist to die. We all have have the right to

:10:10.:10:15.

refuse medical treatment, even if some people regard it as crazy, if

:10:16.:10:20.

we have mental capacity and make that decision based on our belief

:10:21.:10:24.

system and in this case a materialistic one, we are entitled

:10:25.:10:28.

to do that. And in in case the judge on balance having heard the evidence

:10:29.:10:33.

listened to the daughters decided the woman does have the capacity.

:10:34.:10:39.

Who are we to judge on her reasons? She is of sound mind. Not of sound

:10:40.:10:43.

body and she wants to make that decision and the judge said she has

:10:44.:10:46.

the right to make that decision? Yes he makes the point that a lot of

:10:47.:10:51.

people will find this decision a very difficult one and may regard

:10:52.:10:57.

her as foolish, but that is her belief. And another example f a

:10:58.:11:07.

Jehovah's witness had mental capacity, they would be entitled to

:11:08.:11:11.

refuse a blood transfusion. That is the law. If you have mental capacity

:11:12.:11:15.

you are entitled to refuse treatment. Even if the treatment

:11:16.:11:17.

will keep you alive. Thank you. We have been asking how you want

:11:18.:11:31.

your MP to vote in the debate that starts? S in just over an hour, the

:11:32.:11:43.

vote at 10 o'clock tonight on air strikes. It is all the commentators,

:11:44.:11:50.

all the experts say it is library that David Cameron will get a

:11:51.:11:54.

majority in favour of extending air strikes from Iraq to Syria. Thank

:11:55.:11:59.

you for your comments. We have been asking you how you would like your

:12:00.:12:05.

MP to vote. One said, no air strikes, we have contributed to the

:12:06.:12:08.

present situation. When you're in a hole stop digging. Simon said, air

:12:09.:12:14.

strikes are not the answer, Isis need to have their funding stopped

:12:15.:12:22.

by stopping black market oil. Bombing will kill innocent people

:12:23.:12:25.

and fuel more hatred towards the west that. Debate starts at half 11

:12:26.:12:33.

and you can watch it on the BBC News channel. Norman Smith in the House

:12:34.:12:40.

of Commons where all the MPs are beginning to arrive. Trending on

:12:41.:12:46.

Twitter is the hashtag, terrorist sympathiser. Sorry, I couldn't read

:12:47.:12:54.

my own writing! That is to do with comments David Cameron made about

:12:55.:12:59.

Jeremy Corbyn and others. Huge backlash against that. These were

:13:00.:13:03.

remarks that David Cameron made at a private meeting of Tory MPs, the

:13:04.:13:10.

1922 committee, where he dubbed the opponents terrorist sympathisers.

:13:11.:13:18.

That has infuriated Labour MPs, particularly those who were going to

:13:19.:13:24.

back David Cameron. John Prescott said, for our Prime Minister to call

:13:25.:13:29.

those who oppose air strikes terrorist sympathiser show what is a

:13:30.:13:35.

shallow opportunist he is. And Lucy Powell said, David Cameron calling

:13:36.:13:41.

those opposed terrorist sympathisers is an appalling comment. John Mann

:13:42.:13:49.

said he calls is sympathiser, I call him a thick, ignore rant Flashman.

:13:50.:13:58.

There is a huge backlash and talking to those around David Cameron, you

:13:59.:14:05.

could hear them... They know it is a big plunder. David Cameron has --

:14:06.:14:12.

blunder. David Cameron has sought to be reasoned and measured to build a

:14:13.:14:15.

consensus and at the last minute before the debate is about to start

:14:16.:14:20.

he comes out and brands opponents terrorist sympathisers. There is no

:14:21.:14:24.

doubt that will reduce his majority and mean many of those Labour MPs

:14:25.:14:30.

who think I'm going to defy my leader and I will back David

:14:31.:14:36.

Cameron, are thinking, no way. If he is calling us terrorist

:14:37.:14:42.

sympathisers, forget it. That is interesting you say those comments

:14:43.:14:46.

could reduce David Cameron's majority, but only reduce it, IE he

:14:47.:14:55.

is still going to win. But if he gets a small majority, it matters,

:14:56.:14:59.

if things get difficult in Syria and start to go wrong, then he does not

:15:00.:15:04.

have a solid base of Parliamentary support. In other words his backing

:15:05.:15:12.

is much more fragile. So he needs to get as big a support as he can, so

:15:13.:15:17.

if things get difficult and if war they do, he can rely on solid

:15:18.:15:22.

Parliamentary support. He needs to get a sizeable win tonight. He

:15:23.:15:27.

cannot afford to a 20 or 30 majority. Thank you. More from

:15:28.:15:36.

Norman. Now we are going to talk to some of you live about how you want

:15:37.:15:43.

your MP to vote. We will go to constituents around the country. And

:15:44.:15:47.

should the food industry be forced to be clearer about how much sugar

:15:48.:15:51.

there is in your food? MPs will vote later on whether to

:15:52.:15:57.

authorise UK air strikes against But some Labour MPs are asking him

:15:58.:16:28.

to apologise after he described those who opposed action as

:16:29.:16:29.

terrorist sympathisers. Four men

:16:30.:16:32.

in their 30s have been arrested in Luton on suspicion of committing

:16:33.:16:33.

offences under the Terrorism Act. Seven properties in the town

:16:34.:16:36.

and a number Detectives say it's part

:16:37.:16:38.

of an ongoing investigation, and The head

:16:39.:16:41.

of athletics' world governing body, Lord Coe, will give evidence to MPs

:16:42.:16:46.

investigating allegations of doping The IAAF president is also likely to

:16:47.:16:49.

face questions about his former association with

:16:50.:16:52.

the sportswear giant, Nike. They say they will get away 99% of

:16:53.:17:06.

the show is in that company to good causes. They want to make the world

:17:07.:17:12.

a safer place for their daughter Max to grow up in.

:17:13.:17:13.

England's Alastair Cook is named as captain of the ICC's Test Team

:17:14.:17:17.

Cook led England to victory in the Ashes and he's the current

:17:18.:17:21.

There are no English players in the starting one-day eleven.

:17:22.:17:26.

Gerard Deulofeu scores one and sets up the other as Everton

:17:27.:17:28.

beat Middlesbrough in the League Cup quarter-finals.

:17:29.:17:30.

Manchester City and Stoke are also through.

:17:31.:17:33.

Tiger Woods says he has nothing to look forward to and has no idea when

:17:34.:17:36.

The former world number one has had two back operations - he's now 400th

:17:37.:17:41.

in the rankings and says there's no light at the end of the tunnel.

:17:42.:17:46.

And there's agony for Thailand's Tepchaiah Un-Nooh as he fluffs the

:17:47.:17:50.

final black to miss out on a maximum 147 break and a ?44,000 bonus.

:17:51.:18:05.

All this week we're looking at the best ways of tackling

:18:06.:18:07.

childhood obesity and cutting the sugar content in what we eat.

:18:08.:18:10.

The way our packaged food is labelled is

:18:11.:18:12.

a real battleground between health campaigners and food manufacturers.

:18:13.:18:15.

Two years ago the government did a deal with industry to put colour

:18:16.:18:18.

coded warnings on the front of packs.

:18:19.:18:20.

That voluntary agreement comes into force in full this Christmas -

:18:21.:18:23.

though many manufacturers have been doing it for a while.

:18:24.:18:26.

So has it made any difference or so far are we still as confused

:18:27.:18:29.

One medical condition will soon cost us more than smoking,

:18:30.:18:39.

It takes an for us to decide what to pick on the

:18:40.:18:48.

shelf. Position, price and smell is important, but research shows it is

:18:49.:18:51.

often packaging that is the crucial factor. At a flat in South London my

:18:52.:18:59.

four-year-old daughter is here along with other children and their

:19:00.:19:02.

parents who all agree to speak to us today. Anything with frozen she will

:19:03.:19:10.

go for. Bright colours she goes for. Anything with characters on it. It

:19:11.:19:17.

is making the choice quickly in the supermarket. If I have the children

:19:18.:19:22.

with me I have to do it quickly because my opportunity is such a

:19:23.:19:27.

small window. Eating well can be confusing business. From next year

:19:28.:19:31.

all foods need to carry nutritional information on the back of the pack.

:19:32.:19:36.

In this country most to do that already, but the real battle is on

:19:37.:19:40.

the front. Two years ago the government did a deal with the food

:19:41.:19:43.

industry to put extra information here. This shows the amount of fat,

:19:44.:19:51.

sugar and salt as a percent of the recommended daily amount for an

:19:52.:19:54.

adult. It is known as the traffic light system. I prefer it when I see

:19:55.:20:00.

the colours. At a glance I can see how much sugar and fat is in it. I

:20:01.:20:06.

need to compare it with what else we are eating. It is easier to

:20:07.:20:12.

understand. Obviously read looks like danger, but I do not follow

:20:13.:20:17.

that. Once again, it is in moderation. But to force companies

:20:18.:20:24.

to use the traffic light system would mean changing EU law in

:20:25.:20:30.

Brussels, so this front of pack stuff is still voluntary. The big

:20:31.:20:34.

four supermarkets have now signed up for their own label products, but

:20:35.:20:40.

M does not use it for all of its food range and you will struggle to

:20:41.:20:45.

find those warning colours on many of the largest branding goods. Many

:20:46.:20:48.

of your members have refused to use the system point-blank. The traffic

:20:49.:20:54.

light labelling system itself is not universally acknowledged as the best

:20:55.:20:59.

way of doing it. 90% of our members have front of pack labelling that

:21:00.:21:04.

information. But they do it it in different ways and that is because

:21:05.:21:08.

they are producing products here to be sold in Europe. There are

:21:09.:21:13.

different views amongst shoppers and consumers about what they want.

:21:14.:21:18.

Confusion still reigns with different systems, different colours

:21:19.:21:23.

and different packets. Next year, we understand the industry trade body

:21:24.:21:27.

will make a fresh push to get its members to sign up to the traffic

:21:28.:21:32.

lights scheme. Whether its members agreed this time round remains to be

:21:33.:21:33.

seen. We can speak to the chief

:21:34.:21:54.

nutritionist in England. Where do you see food labelling? It is

:21:55.:22:00.

important that we can look at the product and know what is in it. The

:22:01.:22:07.

front of pack system is great, but we do not think it is the solution

:22:08.:22:13.

to the nation's obesity problem. Most people do not engage that well

:22:14.:22:16.

with food labels and they do not look at them and they are choosing

:22:17.:22:21.

things very quickly. You do that, I did it, we choose things quickly in

:22:22.:22:26.

the supermarket. We think there are structural things that could help

:22:27.:22:30.

address the nation's obesity problem. At the moment we have a lot

:22:31.:22:35.

of our food promoted to us in supermarkets and 40% is bought on

:22:36.:22:43.

fruit promotions. 241. Yes, and that is biased towards the unhealthy end

:22:44.:22:50.

of the food products. So, it does not lead to us swapping one brand of

:22:51.:22:55.

biscuits to another, it leads to as overall buying more of biscuits and

:22:56.:22:59.

that impact on the calories we consume and our weight. Getting

:23:00.:23:05.

control promotions is one of the things Public Health England is

:23:06.:23:09.

recommending. Who would have to get control? It is commissioned by the

:23:10.:23:15.

Department of Health to inform their thinking on sugar as part of the

:23:16.:23:21.

work to plan for the childhood obesity strategy which will be

:23:22.:23:24.

launched in the New Year. We hope there will be quite deep things

:23:25.:23:31.

within that. Another thing is advertising. We saw in that film

:23:32.:23:35.

packaging that has cartoons, that is very engaging for children, and that

:23:36.:23:41.

affect our food choices and what our kids consume. We believe if we had

:23:42.:23:45.

for the controls, we would have an impact on children's' diets. The

:23:46.:23:50.

government has asked you for advice on sugar and you recommend a sugar

:23:51.:23:56.

tax. The Health Select Committee supports it, but so far the

:23:57.:24:01.

government is resisting that. It was one of a series of evidence -based

:24:02.:24:05.

recommendations we make to the government and it was for a

:24:06.:24:09.

recommendation. The top three are promotions, advertising... And

:24:10.:24:14.

reformulation, cutting the sugar content. There is no reason why I

:24:15.:24:18.

yoghurt should be a quarter sugar. These products that people think are

:24:19.:24:23.

healthy can have quite a lot of sugar. Breakfast cereals have a

:24:24.:24:33.

quarter sugar. And healthy oat bars? Maybe they have been fortified with

:24:34.:24:37.

iron and zinc and you think they are better for you than they probably

:24:38.:24:42.

are. The evidence on tax shows that where they have been introduced in

:24:43.:24:47.

other countries they have had an effect in the short-term, but there

:24:48.:24:52.

is long-term evidence. Most of the taxes have happened on fizzy drinks

:24:53.:24:58.

and so on. That is an important source of sugar in the diet. One

:24:59.:25:07.

third of the child's calories comes from soft drinks, but it is not

:25:08.:25:11.

everything. We are getting sugar from a whole range of different

:25:12.:25:17.

foods. We estimate controls on promotions can have a bigger effect

:25:18.:25:24.

on taxing one product. Two thirds of adults are overweight and a third of

:25:25.:25:29.

children are. If Public Health England's job is to promote good

:25:30.:25:36.

health, are you failing? It is horrifying that one in five children

:25:37.:25:40.

arrive in primary school already obese and overweight and a third of

:25:41.:25:47.

them have tooth decay. It is a shocking public health statistics

:25:48.:25:50.

and so far the country has not had deep, strong things to influence

:25:51.:25:55.

that. We have concentrated on health promotion, telling people what they

:25:56.:26:00.

should do, we have improved our schools a lot in terms of nutrition,

:26:01.:26:04.

but we have not done the hard things, we have not really sought to

:26:05.:26:09.

control advertising and promotions and the sugar content of our diet.

:26:10.:26:15.

Do you have any private soundings that the government will listen to

:26:16.:26:21.

your recommendations? Jane Ellison, a public health minister, said in

:26:22.:26:24.

Parliament earlier this week that she had been working closely with

:26:25.:26:27.

Public Health England on this and that is absolutely true. That does

:26:28.:26:34.

not mean diddly squat with respect, does it? Or do you take that as an

:26:35.:26:43.

encouraging sign? We take it as a very encouraging sign. Very key to

:26:44.:26:48.

this is the engagement of the whole of the government in this. The

:26:49.:26:51.

Department of Health only has one part to play in this. Other

:26:52.:26:55.

government departments who work with the food industry have a role to

:26:56.:27:01.

play in it and it is a joined up approach. There is not one silver

:27:02.:27:05.

bullet that can tackle this. Everybody wants the one thing and

:27:06.:27:12.

you need a sustained, broad sweep programme if we really want to do

:27:13.:27:18.

something about obesity. And one in five children arriving at primary

:27:19.:27:22.

school, in reception class, aged four, are already obese? Obese or

:27:23.:27:32.

overweight? Which means from birth parents are making terrible

:27:33.:27:37.

decisions is in my there is one thing everybody could do and that is

:27:38.:27:40.

stop giving their children sugary drinks. The government's advice is

:27:41.:27:47.

that sugary drinks have no place in a child's diet. If everybody in the

:27:48.:27:52.

UK was to do that now, that would cut sugar intake by a third. That is

:27:53.:27:57.

a major think any parent could do. Any parent could do that, that is

:27:58.:28:02.

not impossible. You can say no to a 3 -year-old if they want the sugary

:28:03.:28:08.

drink. People get confused about the idea of trees. Is it something you

:28:09.:28:12.

can have every day? We know the average child is having the

:28:13.:28:17.

approximate to a can of sugary drink every day and once a day is too

:28:18.:28:22.

much. It is a simple, clear message, do not give kids sugary drinks.

:28:23.:28:27.

Thank you very much for talking to us and we will talk more and no

:28:28.:28:31.

doubt when the obesity strategy comes out in the New Year.

:28:32.:28:39.

So, the vote, how do you want your MP to vote tonight?

:28:40.:28:42.

Let's talk to people in constituencies around the UK.

:28:43.:28:47.

Murray is in Liverpool and she is against air strikes. James is in

:28:48.:28:51.

Cheshire and he is against air strikes. Jury is in London and she

:28:52.:29:01.

is undecided. Marry, hello to you. We have just lost her. James, what

:29:02.:29:09.

do you want your MP to do. You are a conservative voter and you want your

:29:10.:29:16.

MP to do what? I would like my MP to vote for air strikes against Isil in

:29:17.:29:25.

Syria. Why? Because I think Isis is an abomination. People say we should

:29:26.:29:29.

not go to war against them, but they are at war with us. Their aim is to

:29:30.:29:35.

destroy our civilisation and they are committing horrendous human

:29:36.:29:40.

rights abuses against people in Iraq and Syria. We are already fighting

:29:41.:29:45.

them in Iraq and we are already targets of Isil and the reason Paris

:29:46.:29:49.

has not happened here is because of the work of our security services

:29:50.:29:55.

and good luck. We are not protecting ourselves by not getting involved in

:29:56.:30:00.

this. Our allies have asked us to join in and they value our military

:30:01.:30:05.

expertise. We should be helping and it would be terrible if we do not.

:30:06.:30:09.

James, let me introduce you to marry. You are a strong supporter of

:30:10.:30:14.

Jeremy Corbyn and you have written to your MP, a Lib Dem, John Pugh,

:30:15.:30:21.

asking him to vote against strikes. Tell James why bombing in Syria

:30:22.:30:23.

would be the wrong thing. I don't agree with bombing. We have

:30:24.:30:32.

been doing it for 15 years and terrorism has increased all the

:30:33.:30:36.

time. It doesn't solve anything. God, I would hate to be in Syria at

:30:37.:30:41.

the moment, because everyone's bombing, all these poor people that

:30:42.:30:49.

are... Dying. I also think that Isis is quite cute in that they're not

:30:50.:30:53.

going to be walking about in their uniforms, they're going to be

:30:54.:30:57.

mingling with ordinary people and how are we going to take them out? I

:30:58.:31:04.

think the whole premice is ridiculous. It is like the lunatics

:31:05.:31:14.

have escaped and taken over the asylum. I don't agree. We don't

:31:15.:31:21.

protect ourselves by doing nothing. 9/11 happened before the Iraq and

:31:22.:31:29.

Afghanistan war. We hadn't bombed anybody and the Americans were

:31:30.:31:32.

targets. We will be targets whether we fight in Iraq or not. Yes,

:31:33.:31:39.

civilians will be killed accidentally, I am sure, Isis will

:31:40.:31:44.

try and make as much capital out of that, it won't be easy, it is a

:31:45.:31:48.

start and not an end. But we have to start. History shows that apiecement

:31:49.:31:58.

does not work. Look at Neville Chamberlain in Germany in 1930.

:31:59.:32:03.

Sarah is a fellow Conservative, but you have a different view to James.

:32:04.:32:09.

What do you say to him? I am happy that Marie pointed out and was

:32:10.:32:13.

focussed on ordinary people and how they're feeling on the ground, I

:32:14.:32:20.

think that politicians are disregarding this point, that is the

:32:21.:32:23.

most important point that needs to be stressed is how are these people

:32:24.:32:31.

going to be impact and will it create an ideological shift? From

:32:32.:32:36.

all the examples we have seen with military intervention in the Middle

:32:37.:32:40.

East it has not worked. We have created a cancer and by bombing

:32:41.:32:45.

innocent civilians you know it is not going to work at all. This is

:32:46.:32:50.

not the answer. Caroline Lucas stressed this point, it will

:32:51.:32:55.

increase dislike of the west and increase chances of attacks here. We

:32:56.:33:00.

are going to see another 7/7. That would not be surprising for me. It

:33:01.:33:06.

has been a disaster and we are adding fuel to the fire. I think

:33:07.:33:12.

you're undecided is that correct what will it take you to help you

:33:13.:33:18.

make up your mind? I was undecided, because it is such a complex

:33:19.:33:24.

situation that you can't say so. For me, I'm glad I'm not making the

:33:25.:33:29.

decision. If I was an MP I wouldn't be able to make a final decision on

:33:30.:33:33.

this. It is such a difficult situation. You know, my reservations

:33:34.:33:43.

are there are innocent civilians and I agree there is some sort of

:33:44.:33:49.

intervention necessary. But I'm not sure air strikes are the right way.

:33:50.:34:01.

I will come back to you in a second. I pause because John Kerry has been

:34:02.:34:05.

speaking about this. Nothing would do more to cut the legs from beneath

:34:06.:34:13.

Daesh than success in de-escalating the war in Syria a bringing closer

:34:14.:34:20.

the day when refugees can return home. Yesterday, I also called on

:34:21.:34:27.

every NATO ally to step up its support for the fight against Daesh.

:34:28.:34:33.

Striking at the organisation's core in Syria and Iraq. Strangling its

:34:34.:34:41.

effort to set up networks elsewhere and defending our ally Turkey and

:34:42.:34:47.

other countries in the region, Jordan and Lebanon particularly. I

:34:48.:34:53.

was gratified that a number of allies are already bringing more to

:34:54.:34:57.

this battle, or are planning to increase their contributions. John

:34:58.:35:08.

Kerry, the US Secretary of State confirming that NATO members are

:35:09.:35:12.

ready to step up. Harry, what do you want your MP to do tonight? My MP is

:35:13.:35:22.

a Labour MP and I think that she will follow her leader rather than

:35:23.:35:27.

doing the right thing, which is in this case would be going with the

:35:28.:35:33.

view that we should have a mandate to do air strikes in Syria, because

:35:34.:35:39.

it did not make any sense that we have got air strikes that can be

:35:40.:35:44.

carried out in Iraq, but across the border, an arbitrary border that is

:35:45.:35:51.

not respected by anybody, that we can't carry out air strikes. But it

:35:52.:35:56.

is a complex issue and the complexities are that we are already

:35:57.:36:01.

part of NATO and John Kerry mentioned that as part of NATO, they

:36:02.:36:08.

want to step up the things that are happening in Syria. Now, we can go

:36:09.:36:13.

down that route if we wish to. And we should do. But what my main issue

:36:14.:36:22.

with what is happening now as far as the British Government's concerned

:36:23.:36:29.

is that Daesh is being bombing and killing and causing all kinds of

:36:30.:36:34.

mayhem, but what he's happened in Paris is the one driving and

:36:35.:36:37.

fuelling everything that is happening. I want that to stop and

:36:38.:36:43.

step back and think for the UK on its own feet and not as a

:36:44.:36:47.

reactionary thing to what happening across the channel. That is my issue

:36:48.:36:53.

and I would they would calm down, readdress ourselves and not on this

:36:54.:36:58.

heat of the moment take decisions which are going to affect us

:36:59.:37:02.

long-term. Our country will be affected long-term. Do you think if

:37:03.:37:10.

your Labour Party MP is a terrorist sympathiser as David Cameron called

:37:11.:37:13.

Jeremy Corbyn and those who will vote against air strikes? I think

:37:14.:37:20.

for senior politicians to you know, somebody like myself can say things

:37:21.:37:25.

like that, maybe and get away with it, but senior politicians should be

:37:26.:37:29.

well advised to choose the correct wordings. I don't think that is he

:37:30.:37:39.

meant. It was something in the heat of the moment. Let's calm down and

:37:40.:37:50.

tackle this with a cool head. I will hear from another two guests. Let's

:37:51.:37:57.

go back to the House of Commons, Norman Smith, you have been talking

:37:58.:38:00.

to Downing Street what are they saying? I'm told that in the wake of

:38:01.:38:08.

the whole terrorist sympathiser backlash, when help gets on his feet

:38:09.:38:11.

in the House of Commons, David Cameron will allude to that and say

:38:12.:38:17.

I respect the sincerely held views of those who have long opposed

:38:18.:38:22.

military action. In other words, he will try and correct the gaffe of

:38:23.:38:33.

last night. Albeit, he was saying he was trying to make a reference to

:38:34.:38:37.

Jeremy Corbyn in particular and his previous support for the likes of

:38:38.:38:45.

Sinn Fein and Hamas, but No 10 know this is you know profoundly damaging

:38:46.:38:51.

on the cusp of this debate and it is worth pointening out after that

:38:52.:38:55.

meeting which was a meeting of Labour MPs, they did not brief out

:38:56.:39:04.

the lines, it was not a spokesman saying they were terrorist

:39:05.:39:09.

sympathisers, it came from Conservative MPs. But these meet rgs

:39:10.:39:13.

never private. We always get information about what is said. Why?

:39:14.:39:17.

Because there is a hundred or so people there and one or two will

:39:18.:39:21.

always talk. It is surprising given the sensitivity of the debate that

:39:22.:39:27.

even in a private meeting David Cameron should make such remarks,

:39:28.:39:31.

because they could backfire. Robbie, do you think David Cameron when said

:39:32.:39:42.

people who will vote against air strikes are terrorist sympathisers

:39:43.:39:45.

or what we will say in the House of Commons today. I won't respect

:39:46.:39:52.

either. There are MPs voting who are not terrorist sympathiser, but

:39:53.:39:56.

decided they cannot vote for it. It was a massive blunder by David

:39:57.:40:00.

Cameron. A lot of Labour people who were saying there is jep side on the

:40:01.:40:05.

ground -- genocide on the ground are going to feel David Cameron is being

:40:06.:40:10.

bomb Bastick and armed his case. What is your MP and what do you want

:40:11.:40:18.

them to do. It is Ian Murray. He will vote against. But I want him to

:40:19.:40:24.

vote for. How do we deal with the genocide in Iraq. The only way to do

:40:25.:40:33.

that is through bombing and asway the doubts, our bombing campaign in

:40:34.:40:41.

Iraq has had zero civilian carps. Carpties. We should -- casualties.

:40:42.:40:49.

We should see that we will minimise casualties by having RAF

:40:50.:40:52.

involvement, because they're so specialised. Another guest, do you

:40:53.:41:01.

buy that that the RAF has precision-guided missiles that can

:41:02.:41:05.

avoid the deaths of innocent civilians? I would take wit a pinch

:41:06.:41:11.

of salt. I think that when we discuss this issue we should

:41:12.:41:21.

remember that how did we get here? They say experience is the best

:41:22.:41:25.

teacher, but I don't see history lessons being heeded. Isis is a

:41:26.:41:31.

creation of the Iraq war. We are ienically going after the --

:41:32.:41:35.

ironically going after the ghosts of that war. It is a war that is now

:41:36.:41:39.

widely regarded as illegal and I don't think it will secure our

:41:40.:41:44.

borders. If you look around in other countries when US launched drone

:41:45.:41:50.

strikes in Pakistan and the Taliban came back with a vengeance. You may

:41:51.:41:58.

think you have quietened they will down. But they come back for

:41:59.:42:02.

Morseful. Even though as David Cameron said, alongside a military

:42:03.:42:06.

intervention in Syria is the political and diplomatic process

:42:07.:42:10.

which is ongoing in Vienna and there have been two rounds of talks and

:42:11.:42:13.

there will be more in January. He said that is as important, it is a

:42:14.:42:19.

twin-track approach. It seems like if you're going to take those

:42:20.:42:24.

approaches, you're going to... They're not, one is not compensating

:42:25.:42:32.

for the other. The damage done by air strikes will be more widespread

:42:33.:42:39.

and dim out any diplomatic efforts, which are not wort the paper they're

:42:40.:42:47.

written on. They're something other in pen and we need to rethink our

:42:48.:42:52.

trading partners and the money we make out of oil rich Middle East and

:42:53.:42:56.

get to the root of how they're funding and cutting off their supply

:42:57.:43:05.

lines. Are you a terrorist sympathiser? No I British in British

:43:06.:43:11.

values of freedom and freedom of expression and conscience and

:43:12.:43:12.

religion. Koim from a group of -- I religion. Koim from a group of -- I

:43:13.:43:18.

come from a minority group in Islam and we are persecuted in our home

:43:19.:43:23.

country and I have experienced terrorist attacks very close to

:43:24.:43:25.

home. Would you call terrorist attacks very close to

:43:26.:43:28.

Cameron to terrorist attacks very close to

:43:29.:43:34.

phrase in the House of Commons? I should think so. But I am not sure

:43:35.:43:41.

how, what the value of such an apology would be. Thank you all very

:43:42.:43:48.

much. Coverage throughout the day on BBC news and the result tonight

:43:49.:43:58.

about 10 o'clock. We are back tomorrow at 9.15. Have a good day.

:43:59.:44:03.

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