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Hello, it's Monday, it's 9 o'clock, I'm Victoria Derbyshire, | :00:09. | :00:10. | |
This morning: is freedom of speech at British universities | :00:11. | :00:21. | |
Hi, I'm Tom, a student in London - universities should be | :00:22. | :00:35. | |
Hello, I'm Hannah. Identity we should shy away from debate. | :00:36. | :00:52. | |
And this morning we won't be shying away from any debate. | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
An exclusive survey for this programme suggests that most | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
students support a controversial policy called "no-platforming" | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
which aims to prevent people with views that might be offensive | :01:00. | :01:01. | |
Hello, I am Peter Tatchell. And NUS officer refused to share a platform | :01:02. | :01:21. | |
with me because she said I was transferred big and racist. When I | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
asked for evidence, she could not find any. | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
This morning we're joined by a group of 50 students from universities | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
right around the UK, including members of the NUS, | :01:32. | :01:33. | |
the National Union of Students - and by people who say they've been | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
prevented from speaking at universities by the NUS. | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
If you're a student, were a student once - | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
do get in touch with your own views and we'll feed your experiences | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
You can e-mail us, to eat or use the hashtag Victoria live. | :01:45. | :02:00. | |
Hello, welcome to the programme, we're live until 11 this morning. | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
We'll bring you the news in a moment - but our debate this morning - | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
is free speech at British universities under threat? | :02:07. | :02:08. | |
Let's go for a quick unscientific snapshot of views - | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
say yes or no loudly, if you feel worried that too | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
many people are silenced and prevented from speaking | :02:18. | :02:19. | |
OK, we'll delve deeper of course into those views with members | :02:20. | :02:32. | |
of our audience who've joined us on the 7th floor here | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
at the BBC but first a summary of today's news with Joanna. | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
The High Street giant BHS is on the verge of collapse, | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
Efforts to find a buyer for the retailer, which has been | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
struggling with debts and a large pension deficit, | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
BHS could go into administration as early as today - | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
the biggest retail casualty since Woolworths eight years ago. | :02:54. | :02:55. | |
It was once one on the biggest names to light up the High Street. | :02:56. | :03:03. | |
But over the years, many customers have switched | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
And now the future of BHS is in doubt. | :03:06. | :03:14. | |
In a letter to staff obtained by the Mirror, Dominic Chapple, | :03:15. | :03:17. | |
it's not always the strongest that survive, it's the ones that can | :03:18. | :03:38. | |
adapt the quickest and I don't think BHS has adapted quickly enough to | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
British Home Stores opened its first shop in Brixton in London in 1928. | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
In the 1980s it merged with Mothercare | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
And in 2000 Sir Philip Green paid ?200 million for BHS to be part | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
But he wasn't able to turn the country around and sold it | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
for ?1 to a little-known consortium called Retail Acquisitions. | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
A year later the new owners have been unable to | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
The company has debts and a large hole in its pension fund | :04:13. | :04:21. | |
But some of that may be covered by a government-backed scheme. | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
But how do shoppers feel about the once household name? | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
It doesn't necessarily appeal to someone of my age, | :04:30. | :04:31. | |
or even younger ones, it is stuck in a retail no man's land. | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
I would miss it, I would definitely miss it. | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
USDAW, the union that represents shop workers, | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
says it is urging BHS to begin a dialogue | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
with them and BHS staff now fear | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
whether a once bright light on the high street is set to go out. | :04:51. | :05:01. | |
We can go to Catriona Renton on Oxford Street in central London | :05:02. | :05:10. | |
outside the PHS store there today. Is it opened today? | :05:11. | :05:15. | |
The story is not due to open until 9:30am. We have heard that the | :05:16. | :05:23. | |
company will go into administration at some point today. We have heard | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
that Administration tas have been appointed, a company called Duff and | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
Phelps. I have spoken to a number of people on their way into work this | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
morning. Many of them very upset who did not want to speak. We did speak | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
to a woman who has worked here as a shop assistant for 30 years. She | :05:43. | :05:55. | |
said the only thing she has heard about this is what she has seen and | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
read in the media. All of this have come as a shock to workers. 11,000 | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
people very anxious now about the future of their jobs. The | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
administrator has been appointed. If they find a buyer, all well and | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
good. If they do not then that could spell the collapse of BHS and it | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
would be the biggest retail collapse since Walworth back in 2008, when | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
30,000 people lost their jobs -- Woolworth. We are expecting a formal | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
statement later to confirm what we have already been told this morning, | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
that the company, British Home Stores, once one of the biggest | :06:31. | :06:38. | |
names on the high Street, is to go into administration. 11,000 workers' | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
jobs are at risk and they will be anxious to find out more. They will | :06:42. | :06:48. | |
have an opportunity to speak to the management later today. Thank you. | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
The government is considering proposals to avert a backbench | :06:52. | :06:54. | |
rebellion over forcing all state schools in England | :06:55. | :06:55. | |
to become academies - by allowing local councils | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
The move comes amid mounting disquiet among some Conservative MPs | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
and councils over plans to force schools to opt out of | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
A group representing 37 largely Conservative local authorities has | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
warned that there is a risk that turning all state schools | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
into academies will fail to raise school standards. | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
Our political guru Norman Smith is in Westminster for us. | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
Is this a potential U-turn? I think it is indicative of the colossal | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
pressure that Nicky Morgan the Education Secretary is now under. | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
Not only from opposition parties but from Tory backbenchers, from | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
Conservative run local councils, from Tory former Education Secretary | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
's and the Education Select Committee, absolutely huge, huge | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
pressure. She is trying to find a way round this. What seems to be | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
emerging as this compromise plan which would basically allow | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
successful local authorities to say OK, we will become an academy, we do | :07:56. | :08:09. | |
not have to cede control of our schools, we will set ourselves up as | :08:10. | :08:11. | |
academies. The counteraccusations is what it sounds like, you will be | :08:12. | :08:13. | |
rebranding local authorities, they will just call themselves academies. | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
What Nicky Morgan's people say is not quite. This would only be open | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
to the most successful education authorities. Secondly, schools would | :08:24. | :08:28. | |
still have to want to opt in. It is no good school saying will become an | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
Academy chain and no one opting in. The hope is this might avert | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
potential result of Tory backbenchers. What will be critical | :08:37. | :08:46. | |
as whether Nicky Morgan will put this in next month's Queen's Speech. | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
It could be embroiled in a whole Euro row and people deciding to | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
settle scores and vote against the changes. Thank you. | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, has warned that tomorrow's planned | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
walkout by junior doctors in England will put patient safety at risk. | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
If it goes ahead, it will be the first time in the history | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
of the NHS that junior doctors have walked out of accident | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
and emergency units, urgent maternity services | :09:10. | :09:10. | |
13,000 scheduled operations have already been cancelled. | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
The BMA says Mr Hunt should withdraw his threat to impose | :09:15. | :09:16. | |
The Royal College of Surgeons has called for both sides | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
Two thirds of students support certain groups and individuals | :09:21. | :09:27. | |
being banned from speaking at student unions because of | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
the opinions they hold - according to a survey commissioned | :09:31. | :09:32. | |
Over the past few months there's been an increase in the number | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
of people who've been told they can't speak at universities | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
because of their views on topics like sexuality, | :09:40. | :09:41. | |
The survey suggests that many students believe | :09:42. | :09:54. | |
the National Union of Students is right to bar speakers, as part of | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
its so-called "no platforming" policy. | :09:58. | :10:07. | |
Do stay with us for that debate in the next few minutes. | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
We'll be discussing this - and debating freedom of speech - | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
with an audience of 50 students, as well as people who say | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
The case for Britain remaining part of the European Union will be set | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
Theresa May will say membership improves the UK's | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
It comes in spite of previous criticism she has made about | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, who is part of the Leave campaign, | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
says the UK faces a migration "free-for-all" if it | :10:36. | :10:37. | |
French police are investigating the death of a British man and two | :10:38. | :10:47. | |
of his children in a car accident on a motorway near Dijon. | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
A woman and a third child have been seriously injured. | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
The family's car hit a safety barrier on the A39 motorway | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
The police are looking into the possibility that the man | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
Calls for older children to be routinely given the Meningitis B | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
vaccine will be debated by MPs today. | :11:06. | :11:07. | |
Campaigners want under-11s to be vaccinated | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
as well as newborn babies, who are the most at-risk group. | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
The government says that's not cost-effective. | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
Helena Lee's report contains some images which viewers | :11:18. | :11:19. | |
Faye Burdett, a healthy two-year-old before she contracted meningitis B. | :11:20. | :11:28. | |
She struggled for 11 days with the disease in hospital. | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
Her parents chose to release this photograph of her when she | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
was extremely unwell, to raise awareness. | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
Faye died on Valentine's Day this year. | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
It was that image that helped push the disease into the spotlight | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
and turn an online petition calling for all under 11s to be given | :11:47. | :11:49. | |
the vaccine into the most popular petition in parliamentary history. | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
Meningitis B is a rare virus but it can lead to death | :11:55. | :12:01. | |
At the moment, babies under one are vaccinated against it | :12:02. | :12:10. | |
The UK is the first country in the world to add the jab | :12:11. | :12:18. | |
to its routine childhood vaccination programme. | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
The government says it understands people's concerns but it has no | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
plans to extend the programme to older children. | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
Campaigners, though, hope today's debate will put | :12:30. | :12:31. | |
pressure on MPs to agree that that needs to change. | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
That is the summary of the news. More at 9:30am. | :12:38. | :13:09. | |
On Facebook Keith says people are only allowed to speak if they share | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
the same views. Who are the real fascists? There was a sharp intake | :13:18. | :13:22. | |
of breath there. Another person says hypocrisy of | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
students gagging and no-platforming people. | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
Most students do support the idea of banning people who hold | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
controversial views on subjects like race, rape, transgender issues, the | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
Holocaust and others. Now the sport. I'll start this bulletin as I've | :13:47. | :13:59. | |
started many in recent Now they're just five | :14:00. | :14:02. | |
points from an historic Much was made of them | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
being without their top scorer Jamie Vardy yesterday, | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
who's serving a suspension. But they didn't seem to miss him too | :14:12. | :14:13. | |
much, as they thumped Swansea 4-0. In fact, the man that replaced | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
Vardy, Leo Ulloa, scored two So that puts Leicester eight | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
points clear of Tottenham Also on the scoresheet | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez. The Algerian international has | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
impressed all season, averaging a goal every other game, | :14:29. | :14:29. | |
and last night he won the PFA The prize was presented to him | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
by his boss, Claudio Ranieri. And because the ceremony | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
was in London, just hours after the game, the Leicester | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
players had to travel by helicopter Izzy Christensen of Man City | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
won the women's award. Let's hear from Riyad Mahrez. I am | :14:42. | :14:56. | |
happy. You are the first African player to win the award, that has | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
got to be a great achievement? There were big players in the Premier | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
League, Drogba never won it. It is an honour to be the first African. | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
Not the best, but the first, so I am very happy! | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
Crystal Palace will take on Manchester United in the FA | :15:21. | :15:22. | |
It's a first final appearance in 26 years for Palace, | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
He sealed the 2-1 win against Watford yesterday. | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
The final is on the 21st May at Wembley. | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
In Scotland, Celtic are close to a fifth | :15:34. | :15:35. | |
straight Premiership title, but the fans aren't happy. | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
Fans with banners, protesting against the club's board and the way | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
This was ahead of yesterday's 1-1 draw at home to Ross County. | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
Leigh Griffiths gave Celtic the lead with his 38th goal | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
But just look at all those empty seats in the background. | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
Stewart Murdoch equalised for County. | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
Celtic are now nine points clear at the top, but their players left | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
the field to boos and jeers from their supporters. | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
Leicester's footballers look increasingly likely | :16:12. | :16:13. | |
to win their first Premier League title, but the city's rugby union | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
side failed in their attempt to reach the European Champions Cup | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
final as they were beaten by French side Racing 92 in their semifinal | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
The formidable boot of Dan Carter helped Racing to a 19-16 win | :16:24. | :16:29. | |
and prevented an all-English final in Lyon on May 14th, | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
with Saracens winning the other semifinal against Wasps. | :16:33. | :16:42. | |
This morning - is free speech in British universities under threat? | :16:43. | :16:55. | |
Over the last year or so, an increasing number of people have | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
been told they can't speak at universities because of views | :16:59. | :17:00. | |
they hold on issues like sexuality, transgenderism, race or rape. | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
Officially it's called no-platforming - that's | :17:04. | :17:05. | |
when a person or organisation is banned from speaking | :17:06. | :17:07. | |
But many people and groups say they're being silenced in other ways | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
- simply not being invited to speak, or making it almost impossible | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Last night, King's College, London withdrew an invitation | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
for Boris Johnson to speak because of suggesting | :17:25. | :17:26. | |
President Obama's "part-Kenyan" ancestry could have | :17:27. | :17:28. | |
Supporters of "no-platforming" say universities should be places | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
where students feel safe, and that the voices | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
of the most vulnerable people should be prioritised. | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
But critics say it's a violation of freedom of speech | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
and is being used to oppress people with sometimes mainstream views. | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Richard Brooks is the vice-president of the National Union of Students. | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
No, I don't think so at all. The NUS no-platformed policy was born out of | :17:51. | :18:03. | |
the 1970s when fascists and racists came onto campuses. There are | :18:04. | :18:10. | |
organisations on the no-platformed -esque, which is democratically | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
decided at the conference every year, and it's all about making sure | :18:13. | :18:20. | |
students feel safe. It's different to a safe space policy which is | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
essential to the idea that everyone has freedom of speech, but some | :18:26. | :18:28. | |
people have more equal rights than others and we are making sure the | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
marginalised groups get their views heard. Both of those policies are | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
democratically decided. They are progressive and sensible and are not | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
part of the wider debate of censorship and freedom of speech | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
that a lot of people use when their views are not necessarily given the | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
platform they think they deserve. So not everyone does have freedom of | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
speech? I think everyone does have freedom of speech, but the platforms | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
are different. I don't think you could say you have no-platform, and | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
then take out a 2-page spread in the new statesman saying you don't have | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
a platform. We believe free speech is under threat from many | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
directions. Personally I believe the NUS policies have have concrete | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
effects on the no policy where these people cannot be challenged. It is | :19:30. | :19:39. | |
undermining the circumstances, where we don't believe students from the | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
best universities in the country have the ability to expose these | :19:48. | :19:54. | |
views as fascist and on progressive. A quick point of clarity, in US | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
no-platform policies for NUS if events. A lot of the things we might | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
discuss today are decided on a critically but locally within | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
student unions and the students there. The NUS doesn't have carte | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
blanche to go to someone and say, you can't speak, certain campus. | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
That's not our decision and we don't have that power. My name is Chelsea | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
from city University. While student unions should have the ability to | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
determine who they want to speak at their colleges, students should also | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
have the ability to debate with who they want, and that's how you form | :20:31. | :20:37. | |
your opinions about the world. My name is Ahmed, and I'm executive | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
member of the Muslim student council. I think there are groups | :20:41. | :20:46. | |
that promote fascist, racist and intolerant ideologies that would be | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
damaging to student life and society at large. So it's right that some | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
groups should be banned? What would be happen if they would be allowed | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
to speak? I think it would put students at risk. I feel there could | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
be a group that puts me at risk, so if I was running for Islamic Society | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
president. If there was a neo-Nazi group, like National Action Centres | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
Back Which Is No-platformed By The Nus, I Would Feel At That And My | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
Security Is At Threat. As A Student I Would Rather Have The Opportunity | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
To Challenge That Person In Person And Tell Them Why I Disagree With | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
Their Opinions Rather Than Just Assume I Am A Victim, Or I Will Be | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
Made Vulnerable By Their Presence. Applause | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
As It Is, We Already Live In A Society Where A | :21:46. | :22:03. | |
can we talk a bit about this nebulous idea of harm we are talking | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
about? It should be specific. No-platforming in the 1970s was | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
about preventing people coming onto campus who would cause fights and | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
violence. We are now talking about harming a nonspecific way. What do | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
you mean by harm? You say you could potentially be at risk. We have had | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
cases at Kings College, for example a few months ago there were Muslims | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
students who had their hijabs pulled off. That has not been highlighted. | :22:39. | :22:46. | |
Groups with fascist and racist ideologies can cause | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
life-threatening concerns. Students in the University of Birmingham who | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
have National action students, who are not organised, but our | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
spray-painting fascist ideologies across the university that need to | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
be monitored. Over the next hour you could hear views that might be | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
considered offensive. but it's important to hear some | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
of those views in order to debate whether freedom of speech | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
is actually under threat. As always, you can get in touch | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
with us throughout the programme. All texts will be charged | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
at the standard network rate. As you can see, we've got a group | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
of around 50 students or so, as well as some individuals who say | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
they've been silenced in one way or another | :23:27. | :23:28. | |
by university student unions. Whether you're a student | :23:29. | :23:30. | |
or not, this is a debate about the principle | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
of freedom of speech And a Comres survey commissioned | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
for this programme suggests that almost two thirds of students | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
support the no-platform policy. Sarah has been no-platformed, | :23:39. | :23:52. | |
because it means you are out of touch. Because two thirds of | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
students in this survey back this no-platforming policy. I was | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
no-platformed by one group, but I was then invited by another group. | :24:03. | :24:08. | |
But no-platforming is intellectual cowardice, it's refusing to have a | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
discussion. You heard what Ahmed said. There is violence and | :24:12. | :24:18. | |
racialised violence against women, which is horrendous, but he said | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
there was one particular speaker on campus who could have been prevented | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
that would have been preventing that violence. You can't make the debate | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
about preventing some people... You are preventing debate and failing to | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
tackle the violence. I think when you call it intellectual cowardice | :24:40. | :24:42. | |
because you believe in free speech, if you believe in it that much, why | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
are you not in Liverpool demanding you can buy a copy of the Sun of an | :24:47. | :24:51. | |
independent news agent customer that's a form of no-platforming as | :24:52. | :25:00. | |
well. I'm a human rights campaigner. I think the intention behind | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
no-platforming and safe space policies is often honourable and | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
commendable, to protect weak and vulnerable students. That is fine. | :25:09. | :25:11. | |
The way it's being widely interpreted, it has gone too far. | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
Too far for who? Atheist, secular and humanist societies across the | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
country have attempts to close down their meetings because some people | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
find their challenge to organised religion offensive. The head of Hope | :25:26. | :25:32. | |
not hate, the head of the antifascist and anti-racist | :25:33. | :25:37. | |
organisation, a hero of the British left, there was an attempt to ban | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
him from campuses because he was said to be anti-Muslim. He has never | :25:43. | :25:49. | |
been that, but he did not advocate extremists. The fact they try to | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
block him shows how this policy is completely and utterly wrong. | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
Richard Brooks on the NUS is shaking his head. There is a difference, and | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
this is something I would clearly like to say, there is absolutely a | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
difference between no-platform, a democratically decide policy about | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
organisations, and what has happened in a number of examples, including | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
yours and Nick. Essentially there was a house party, you were not | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
invited, and that has nothing to do with no-platforming, that was the | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
fact there was a conversation happening and you were just not | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
invited. It's not the same as no-platforming. But you are saying | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
there is a culture of the silencing being extended. There was an attempt | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
to specifically stop Nick from speaking out of a false Alex | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
allegation that he was anti-Muslim. To treat a progressive left winger | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
in this way from left-wing students is an abomination. It's not | :26:49. | :26:49. | |
left-wing policies, it's McCarthyism. I'm a National student | :26:50. | :26:59. | |
Officer for NUS. I was involved by business in the organising of the | :27:00. | :27:04. | |
Arab conference. It's not true, not a single external organisation was | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
involved in the organisation of the conference. Every singer person | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
there was personally affected by racism or fascism, or was part of | :27:12. | :27:16. | |
the NUS on it elected people stop not a single other person was | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
invited to take part. To take it out of context, that just because an | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
individual was not invited to an event, the NUS doesn't have the | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
problem with them, is ludicrous. Nick is a man of great honour and | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
integrity who has taken incredible personal risks against fascism and | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
racism. I work for Hope not hate. I completely agree with Peter and what | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
he's saying. From what we have understood, there was a discussion | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
about Nick being Islamophobic, and some of the work of Hope not hate | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
being Islamophobic. Everybody in the organisation found that incredibly | :27:57. | :27:58. | |
offensive. There are different Aurtenetze ear. That argued there, | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
if it is true, it is ludicrous and not worth debating, Nick is not | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
Islamophobic. It was a specific antifascist tactic, which was a | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
defence of freedom of speech, shutting down those who were | :28:16. | :28:17. | |
attempting to get tail the freedoms of others. The terms fascism is used | :28:18. | :28:24. | |
very widely, meaning it is used to broadly. It has also been | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
extrapolated out to where we oppose people who are offensive. That was | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
never the point of no-platforming or the antifascist policy. The policy | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
was to defend freedom of speech and delegitimise those people who | :28:38. | :28:50. | |
were... Spiked is an online magazine to campaign for Freedom of speech | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
across University campuses. The idea that the NUS 's Democratic is | :28:56. | :28:58. | |
frankly laughable. The main question I want to come back to, | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
no-platforming being a specific thing and going to far. If you | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
believe of freedom of speech, no-platforming always went too far. | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
It's meant to be an indivisible liberty that is meant for all. To | :29:13. | :29:15. | |
see people like Nick being at the sharp end of it, it's your own way | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
is coming back to. Freedom of speech is for everyone, trusting students | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
to be able to challenge views and take them on. The idea we are | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
hearing today that students are so vulnerable, they are protected from | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
fascists, and also from feminists, racists and sombreros, that is the | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
legacy of the no-platforming... Sombreros? University of Birmingham | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
and University of East Anglia banned them because they are apparently | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
racist. Tom-tom you talked about the idea you are a sensitive flower and | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
need to be protected. That's not what anybody saying. To address the | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
point made about harm at the front. You're concerned about freedom of | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
speech, it's never been an absolute right. Let's not pretend it has | :30:04. | :30:08. | |
because that's frankly patronising. There are people who are incredibly | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
vulnerable who feel very specific types of harm. Tell the family of | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
trans people, the families of queer people who have committed suicide | :30:21. | :30:23. | |
because of the likes of people who invalidate their identities like | :30:24. | :30:24. | |
Julie. None of you have read anything that | :30:25. | :30:40. | |
I have written. How dare you name me personally when you are talking | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
about people committing suicide? How dare you! All I am saying is | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
opinions you have expressed have invalidated the identities of trans | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
women. That is a specific harm, Sarah, that you just dismissed. That | :31:00. | :31:11. | |
is really dangerous to say... Let's pause for one second. Stop! Tom, you | :31:12. | :31:20. | |
finish your sentence. There are people who frankly have fallen | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
behind and unfortunately, despite the fact we are very appreciative of | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
Peter Tatchell, and everything you have worked incredibly hard for, and | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
nobody would deny that, however, that does not mean the you and | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
others like you are removed from criticism. | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
APPLAUSE Let them respond! Do introduce | :31:42. | :31:51. | |
yourself. Nobody should be above criticism. I am Julie Bendall. I | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
read an article 13 years ago in the Guardian for which ever more I have | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
been a monster. I said in the article that it is not all right for | :32:02. | :32:11. | |
a man to decide that he is a woman and go and counsel rape victims at | :32:12. | :32:14. | |
an organisation where the actual service users said they felt | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
uncomfortable with this trans person counselling them when they have been | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
raped. That is beside the point. 13 years ago I wrote an article. I have | :32:25. | :32:29. | |
been a feminist campaigner which has meant that I have avoided for many | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
women real harm, and I am talking about rape and murder, not just the | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
offence they may feel. For 36 years I have done this work. Don't be | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
cross with me, we are going to the news because it is time and I will | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
come back to you after the news and sport. We will hear more from Peter | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Tatchell, human rights campaigner who says he has potentially been | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
silenced by students, and of course from Julie Bindel. First, Joanna | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
with a summary of the news. The High Street giant BHS | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
is on the verge of collapse, Efforts to find a buyer | :33:08. | :33:09. | |
for the retailer, which has been struggling with debts and a large | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
pension deficit, have BHS will go into | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
administration this morning - the biggest retail casualty | :33:16. | :33:25. | |
since Woolworths eight years ago. Our correspondent Catriona Renton is | :33:26. | :33:35. | |
on Oxford Street. You said the store would be open at 9:30am. What has | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
happened? The store has opened and we have seen a steady stream of | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
people going in and out. We have heard in the last couple of hours | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
that the company is going to go into administration, that the | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
administrators have been appointed. It is a company called Duff and | :33:57. | :34:03. | |
Phelps. We know there were attempts to get potential investors to sort | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
out a financial deal, attempts to get Sports Direct to buy all or part | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
of the company but that has failed. The business is going to go into | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
administration. We will expect a formal announcement later today. | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
That will leave the 11,000 workers across the UK stores feeling very | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
anxious about their jobs. We spoke to some workers this morning. Some | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
were too upset to speak. Others said all they have heard was what was in | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
the media. They are looking for some clarity about what their futures | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
will be. If the administrators fail to find a buyer that will mean the | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
collapse of British Home Stores and that will be the end of trading for | :34:45. | :34:48. | |
a company which has been working for the last 88 years, and it will be | :34:49. | :34:56. | |
the biggest retail collapse since Woolworth in 2008 when 30,000 jobs | :34:57. | :34:57. | |
were lost. Thank you. The government is considering | :34:58. | :35:13. | |
proposals to avert a backbench rebellion over forcing all state | :35:14. | :35:15. | |
schools in England to become academies - | :35:16. | :35:17. | |
by allowing local councils The move comes amid mounting | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
disquiet among some Conservative MPs and councils over plans to force | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
schools to opt out of A group representing 37 largely | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
Conservative local authorities has warned that there is a risk that | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
turning all state schools into academies will fail | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
to raise school standards. The Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt, | :35:32. | :35:39. | |
has warned that tomorrow's planned walkout by junior doctors in England | :35:40. | :35:41. | |
will put patient safety at risk. If it goes ahead, it will be | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
the first time in the history of the NHS that junior doctors have | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
walked out of accident and emergency units, | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
urgent maternity services 13,000 scheduled operations have | :35:52. | :35:53. | |
already been cancelled. The BMA says Mr Hunt | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
should withdraw his threat The Royal College of Surgeons has | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
called for both sides Two thirds of students support | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
certain groups and individuals being banned from speaking | :36:02. | :36:13. | |
at student unions because of the opinions they hold - | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
according to a survey commissioned The survey suggests that many | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
students believe the National Union of Students is | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
right to bar speakers, as part of its so-called "no platforming" | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
policy. Yesterday, Kings College London | :36:26. | :36:33. | |
withdrew the right for Boris Johnson to speak after he made about | :36:34. | :36:45. | |
President Obama's Kenyan ancestry. Peter Tatchell has given his view. | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
The way it has been reported, it has gone too far. Some 80 societies have | :36:51. | :36:56. | |
had to close down their meetings because some people find the | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
challenge to organised religion offensive. There are a number of | :37:04. | :37:08. | |
examples where essentially there was a house party, you were not invited. | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
That is nothing to do with no-platform, that is just there was | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
a conversation happening about something and you were not invited | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
to come. It is not the same as they know platform. If I wanted to run | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
for a society president and I felt there was a group which might put me | :37:26. | :37:35. | |
at risk, for example an Islamic society president, I will | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
automatically feel at risk and my security is at threat. I would | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
rather have the opportunity to challenge that person in person and | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
tell them why I disagree with their opinions, rather than to assume I am | :37:49. | :37:51. | |
a victim. That's a summary of the latest BBC | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
News - more at 10:00. Chris has said university is a place | :37:57. | :38:07. | |
to challenge views not shy away from the bait. Another person says safe | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
space policies have gone too far. They have an awful future. | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
More on this to come but first Jess with the sport. | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
Leicester City are five points from an historic, | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
They thrashed Swansea 4-0 yesterday, despite being without | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
They're now eight points clear of Tottenham who play tonight. | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
And the good news keeps coming for Leicester, | :38:37. | :38:38. | |
their striker Riyad Mahrez has won the PFA Football of the Year Award. | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
The Algerian international has impressed all season, | :38:42. | :38:43. | |
He accepted the award from Claudio Ranieri. I am very happy. You are | :38:44. | :39:02. | |
the first African player to win the award, that has got to be a great | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
achievement as well? I did not know that. There were big players in the | :39:07. | :39:15. | |
Premier League. Drogba never won it. Yahya. It is good to be the first | :39:16. | :39:22. | |
African. Not the best, but the first, so I am very happy! Crystal | :39:23. | :39:30. | |
Palace are through to the first FA Cup semifinal in 22 years. | :39:31. | :39:39. | |
Connor Wickham scored the winning goal. | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
Celtic are close to a fifth straight Premiership title. | :39:43. | :39:44. | |
But ahead of their 1-1 draw with Ross County yesterday, | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
the fans held up banners to show their anger at the club's | :39:47. | :39:49. | |
board and how they're running the club. | :39:50. | :39:51. | |
The bravest sporting performance of the weekend surely came | :39:52. | :39:53. | |
from Kenya's Jemima Sumgong in the London Marathon She fell | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
with four miles to go and cracked her head on the road | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
No matter - Sumgong got back up, dusted herself down and came | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
She admitted she was surprised to win. | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
That is all the sport for now. I will be back at ten. | :40:12. | :40:26. | |
Thank you, Jess. We want to discuss issues which various feminist | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
commentators have made about transgender women. You may hear some | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
views you do not agree with and they will be challenged. The point is not | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
to talk about what they have said and the merits of their arguments, | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
it is to debate whether or not they should be silenced for having those | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
views. Julie Bindel was in full flow of defending herself when I rudely | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
interrupted her to go to the news and sport. Do continue. I am a | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
feminist campaigner and have been for 36 years. I speak at many | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
universities in the UK and outside it, it usually always on violence | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
against women and children. 13 years ago I wrote an article which some | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
transgender activists took offence at and since then it has been | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
witchhunt against me. I am no-platform to buy some committees | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
in the NUS and I am constantly described as being like Hitler, I do | :41:25. | :41:28. | |
know why. It is always Hitler and not some mid-range dictator. Are you | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
offended? It is deeply offensive but we do not have the right not to be | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
offended. I don't mind if students don't invite me. I do not get paid | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
for it. Other students get fed up that I am not invited. I get more | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
e-mails from feminist students and others who say we want to hear you | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
express your views on how to end men's violence against women and | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
children. This is in a context where I go to universities if the NUS do | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
not know platform A. If they get out of bed on time, they picket and | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
scream and shout. They have not read my article but they allow | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
pornographers who are deeply misogynist and offensive | :42:18. | :42:19. | |
walk-through, they allow Muslim clerics who believe in stoning women | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
to death and in female genital mutilation and in all kinds of other | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
human rights atrocities. They allow them on campus and I am banned by | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
some of them. Why? We asked a number of trans students to come along | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
today and they would not. They would not be in the same room as you. | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
Payton quid did come along -- Payton Quinn. What would you like to say? | :42:44. | :42:51. | |
Trans-students do feel they were targeted and it is fair to believe | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
that and you accept your views were quite contentious and I understand | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
what the purpose was of the original article goes you are highlighting | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
violence against women and children and feeling unsafe. I assume you do | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
not believe that trans women are equal to other women. You do not | :43:15. | :43:24. | |
know my views. Do you think it is offensive to describe them as men in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
dresses or having a quick fix sex change? I know it causes offence. I | :43:30. | :43:36. | |
find it offensive when I am likened to Hitler. The vile misogyny I have | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
had levelled against me. There is no such thing as a safe space. What we | :43:42. | :43:47. | |
need to do is talk to each other and find a way where we can progress the | :43:48. | :43:50. | |
arguments. My argument is a feminist one which goes back to the 1960s | :43:51. | :43:58. | |
which is there is no such thing as a female brain or a male brain and it | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
is not the case that you like pink or blue. Can I paraphrase you saying | :44:03. | :44:11. | |
that trans women are not bona fides women? I did not say that at all. | :44:12. | :44:19. | |
Does the nature of the language that Julie Bindel has used over the years | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
make you feel intimidated or threatened? This is where we need to | :44:23. | :44:28. | |
talk about political correctness and bringing it back to the sense that | :44:29. | :44:33. | |
it was first used in modern usage. Do you feel threatened? Personally, | :44:34. | :44:41. | |
I den. I know other trans-people who feel threatened because that sort of | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
language and attitudes are definitely mirrored within their | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
personal lives. Threatened in what way? Their sense of identity. There | :44:51. | :44:55. | |
are people I know who have been physically attacked because using | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
some of the certain slurs against trans people, that they are not who | :45:01. | :45:08. | |
they believe they are stopped but Wembley but they Julie Bindel's | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
opinion is just another opinion? Yes, but it is an opinion that a | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
number of people do not subscribe to and don't want to hear. But that is | :45:18. | :45:24. | |
the nature of opinions. But when you talk about the scope of the debate, | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
what you have to consider is the free market is considered by | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
consumers. If a group of people do not want to hear that opinion they | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
are free to do so. I get e-mails all the time, I do speak at lots of | :45:38. | :45:44. | |
universities, by the way. But I get told all the time, it is when I -- | :45:45. | :45:56. | |
when the NUS have a stranglehold. Students are member of the NUS. You | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
have not been no-platform to buy the NUS will stop if so I would not be | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
able to be sat next to you right now. | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
Student unions are collections of students based on values and | :46:12. | :46:17. | |
no-platforming policies and safe space policies are decided | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
democratically by students and student officers. I don't understand | :46:21. | :46:24. | |
how this issue is up for debate around student unions, when it isn't | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
around trade unions, and any other public sector, civil sector | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
societies base, because people think they have the right to speak to | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
students, and you don't. I don't believe that at all. Let me tell you | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
that I think it was 2009, and repeated in 2011, the NUS LGBT | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
caucus voted at their conference to no-platform me, and the motion read, | :46:50. | :46:59. | |
Julie Bendall is vile. Is it a good thing to support the rights of | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
minorities not to feel intimidated and threatened, which is what Caton | :47:03. | :47:08. | |
says, some of her trans friends feel. I was a lesbian born into a | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
working-class committee and I'm a feminist campaigner, so I constantly | :47:13. | :47:19. | |
campaign against very dangerous under very dangerous circumstances. | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
But you don't seem to support the rights of these minorities. Trans | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
students. It's ridiculous, of course I support the rights of trans | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
students not to be threatened, murdered, raped and harassed. It's | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
ludicrous to suggest something I said about gender 13 years ago has | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
resulted in the suicide of trans people, when men who do the | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
attacking, are also attacking trans people. Those of us deemed different | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
in society, such as myself as a lesbian and feminist, and I find it | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
so offensive that you dare to say that I have been anyway provoked the | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
suicide of trans women, and you did say that. It is true! Grow up! I'm | :48:04. | :48:17. | |
the general secretary of the student union of Manchester. We did not | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
no-platform Julie, but we didn't allow her to speak truly safe space | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
policy. What does that mean? It's a policy that says in our building, | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
the four walls we have in the student union, we want to make it | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
acceptable for everyone, and also make sure that all voices, whether | :48:36. | :48:43. | |
they are LGBT, disabled, black, trans, have a voice, because we know | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
in society that they are marginalised and do not have a | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
voice. That's the key thing. We don't live in a false bubble. Are | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
you saying that by effectively silencing Julie, what you are doing | :48:59. | :49:06. | |
is creating more freedom of speech for those minorities who might feel | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
less confident or more vulnerable? Yes, because we stand on the stage | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
and say that we should be there to challenge them, the power to | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
challenge somebody who is a key notes to speaker sat behind the | :49:20. | :49:34. | |
table, who is attacking somebody... We're not taking it out of context. | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
These groups of students live in the real world where they are attacked, | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
abused, on social media and physical abuse. We're not living in a bubble. | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
It annoys me when you have middle-aged people on Twitter saying | :49:49. | :49:51. | |
that we are ridiculous and stupid. That's very insulting. You are | :49:52. | :49:58. | |
saying that this generation who have more progressive views than you are | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
idiots because we don't think the same way. I don't agree with you, so | :50:02. | :50:09. | |
I will use the space that I have and the autonomy our students have given | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
us to govern it the way we want to. You will hear middle-aged people on | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
Twitter say that the zoomable Ewenny get into the real world you will | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
face extreme opinions that you will not like and you have to get on with | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
it. There is not a safe space in the real world. That's ridiculous | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
because we do live in a real world. We are creating what you want in our | :50:31. | :50:40. | |
spaces. Peter Karmis you have campaigned for LGBT rights, and | :50:41. | :50:43. | |
sometimes been beaten up for doing so, and over many years. He has | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
signed a letter calling for greater freedom of speech on campuses. He | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
has been accused of holding racist views. Peyton, as a student you felt | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
the letter was trans-phobic. Can you tell Peter why. I'm not a student, | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
but I can see why people can take that opinion, because there are a | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
lot of people who you were talking about when you talked about | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
no-platforming of certain individuals. There were a lot of | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
people who were no-platformed for what some people believed were very | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
important reasons. Why sign a letter calling for greater freedom of | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
speech, why is that trans-phobic in itself? The problem is, it's looking | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
at it from a wider viewpoint, the idea that you are supporting that | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
students shouldn't be able to criticise or ask for a weight within | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
the University. Whether you agree with that's what you do not, that's | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
how people perceive it. The Observer I signed did not contain a single | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
word of criticism of trans people, did not oppose trans equality, and | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
did not incite harassment of those people. The people I named in those | :52:03. | :52:11. | |
I disagree with on trans issues and disagree with them. I have | :52:12. | :52:16. | |
criticised them. Could somebody read into that that you want activists, | :52:17. | :52:27. | |
speakers, to be given platform that University who do not believe trans | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
women are the... Is there anyone who does see it that | :52:33. | :52:50. | |
way? The problem with some of the views that are put forward, they are | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
very often described as, I'm just putting an idea out there. Usually | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
the reason why people are no-platformed is because of the | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
language they have used and the fact it is dehumanising. To pretend that | :53:04. | :53:06. | |
doesn't happen is to ignore the entire 20th century. I totally agree | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
that there are views of anti-trans activists that are offensive and | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
wrong, and I have criticised them. I debated against Julie on Radio 4. | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
Some people say that I won that debate. That wouldn't have happened | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
if we said that Julie just couldn't speak. On the other point, even | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
though I say that people should have the freedom to speak, I think all | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
baguettes should be protested and challenged. I supported protests | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
against Jermaine Greer and others. But Jermaine Greer is not a bigot. | :53:41. | :53:49. | |
She might have used the views you disagree with but she is not a | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
bigot. She spent her life fighting for equality. I supported a protest | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
against her. I don't think people with offensive views should be given | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
a free pass. They should be protest against an challenged, and the best | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
way to do that is through open debate. If you censor people and ban | :54:06. | :54:11. | |
them, and get suppressed, the ideas are not defeated. Who agrees that if | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
you censor people or ban them, the idea gets suppressed and that is not | :54:15. | :54:16. | |
as a surly a good thing Eastham? One of the things we have moved away | :54:17. | :54:33. | |
from is that this is a university. It's not the real world, but it's | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
the place where you would expect to hear dangerous ideas and not be | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
frightened of them, people would go into thinking you feel vulnerable | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
and you will feel uncomfortable, vulnerable, and everything will be | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
scary. Because ideas that have changed the world historically over | :54:51. | :54:55. | |
many years, have fought racism, got us equality, they were offensive, | :54:56. | :55:00. | |
dangerous and scary to those people who heard them. Somebody said that | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
maybe it's because I'm middle-aged. I actually think that's insulting | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
your generation. There are many young people at universities who are | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
walking round on eggshells because there is a broader climate off, you | :55:14. | :55:20. | |
can't say that. You try to say some thing that goes against the line, | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
it's not just no-platformed, it's a broader sense or is climate where | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
people genuinely think, if I say that, I will be cold trans-phobic, | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
Islamophobic, any number of phobic Coral. That climate in universities | :55:32. | :55:40. | |
is the betrayal of a generation. If you are a victim, calling out saying | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
you can't cope, it's actually positive, you are behaving just like | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
children, and what's worse is that the safety first cult, you got told | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
by teachers to be scared of everything, I'm saying to grow up, | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
the world is scary, but it's much more fun if you go out and have a | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
good time and fight it. Who disagrees with Claire and wants to | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
talk to her about it? You say that ideas that have changed the world in | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
the past and people have been scared of them, isn't no-platforming one of | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
those ideas? The good thing about no-platform is that it simply just | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
stops you hearing things. If you don't want to hear things... I don't | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
know how any of us would make our minds up. I don't know how you would | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
know you don't agree with me, or I would know what I think about | :56:36. | :56:38. | |
no-platform unless I hear the views of it. That's the irony of this | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
conversation. How will we work out what we think about anything? Don't | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
you possibly believe you might change your mind? As an older | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
person... I know that I have changed my mind loads of times. Because | :56:53. | :56:56. | |
somebody had the courage to look me in the eyes and tell me I was all | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
the well wrong. I thought, oh my God, what will I do. I read the odd | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
book, thought about it, felt uncomfortable, and changed my mind, | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
and I'm sure I will do again. That's why you need free speech. Lots of | :57:11. | :57:17. | |
people want to come back to you and we will get to them because we have | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
plenty of time this morning. An e-mail from Michael at Lancaster | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
University, who disagrees with the idea of no-platforming. Regardless | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
of your individual opinions, universities should be a place where | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
opinions are heard and debated in an open forum. Freedom of speech is | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
being undermined and I don't believe the NUS is representative of the | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
vast majority of students. Heather says, these poor delicate flowers | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
will find it difficult to deal with the real world. I suggest students | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
study history to find what hiding 1's head in the sand can do. Vicky | :57:53. | :58:00. | |
says that the idea that trans-women being referred to as men is | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
outdated. Peter says that the debate this morning is I opening. We have | :58:05. | :58:12. | |
achieved something, this morning. Lots more discussion to come. News | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
and sport in a second, but the weather before that. | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
Weather watchers have been doing us proud. The variety of weather across | :58:22. | :58:28. | |
the UK. We have had snow showers across Aberdeenshire. Beautiful | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
start to the day across Cumbria. Wonderful sunrise with showers | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
across Cumbria and Lancashire. A picture from Cornwall with a lot of | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
cloud around but it will thin and break through the day. Where we have | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
had showers this morning in England and Wales, particularly in Central | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
and western areas. Showers across northern Scotland and this line is a | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
weather front. As it comes south the colder air will filter in behind it. | :58:57. | :59:01. | |
It will be rather windy. The proximity of isobars across the | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
Northern Isles. Looking at gusts to gale force coming from the north and | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
accentuate in the cold feel. Through the day the rain will push south. | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
Looking at gusty winds across Scotland. A mixture of rain, sleet | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
and snow at lower levels as well, across the Highlands and Grampians. | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
Across southern Scotland, northern England and Ireland, bright sunny | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
spells but with the odd shower and still windy. The weather front | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
continuing southwards, taking showers with it. But it will dry out | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
across Wales and south-west England and if you stay out of the wind, it | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
will not feel too bad. As we go through the evening and overnight, | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
it's still windy down the north-east coastline and three Scotland. | :59:51. | :59:51. | |
Looking at blizzards in the mountains. Some showers filtering | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
down toward East Anglia but move away from that and you are back to | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
colder conditions and clearer skies. We are looking at some frost. Where | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
you have frost and clearer skies, tomorrow morning is where we will | :00:07. | :00:09. | |
start with sunshine. Still blizzard conditions across the Highlands and | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
Grampians. Wintry showers getting down towards East Anglia and into | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
East Anglia. And it is very gusty, eccentric in the cold feel. Move out | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
towards the west, we look at a mixture of sunshine and showers. | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
Even in areas exposed to northerly or north-westerly wind, we could see | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
a wintry component in those showers. Tomorrow will feel colder than | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
today. As we head into Wednesday, it the eye so bores are starting to | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
swing around so we are looking at something more northerly and | :00:45. | :00:53. | |
westerly. -- the isobars. The impact on the temperature, for the rest of | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
the week it will remain cold. You can tell that by looking at the | :00:58. | :01:02. | |
blue. Heading towards the weekend, something less cold coming our way, | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
but it will not be mild. For the week ahead, it will stay chilly, | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
sunshine with blustery showers, and the risk of frost overnight | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
continues. Hello, it's Monday it's 10, | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
I'm Victoria Derbyshire, This morning: is freedom | :01:19. | :01:20. | |
of speech at Free speech is supposed to be for | :01:21. | :01:43. | |
everyone. That means trusting students, challenging views. But | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
what we have heard that they are so vulnerable, they have to be | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
protected from fascists but also racists and some brow rose. That is | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
not what anyone is saying. You are concerned about your freedom of | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
speech. That has never been an absolute right and let's not pretend | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
it has. That is patronising, frankly. A survey suggests most | :02:12. | :02:17. | |
students support a controversial policy known as no-platform in which | :02:18. | :02:27. | |
-- no-platforming. I find it offensive when I am likened to | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
Hitler. The vile misogyny I have had levelled at me. There is no such | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
thing as a safe space. What we need to do is talk to each other. We have | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
also heard from people who in the past who say they have been | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
silenced. We do live in the real world. We know there is not a safe | :02:49. | :02:56. | |
space. We are trying to create safe places. | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
For the next hour, we're joined by a group of 50 students | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
from universities right around the UK, including members | :03:03. | :03:03. | |
of the NUS, the National Union of Students - and by people who say | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
they've been prevented from speaking at universities by the NUS. | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
If you're a student, were a student once - | :03:10. | :03:11. | |
do get in touch with your own views and we'll feed your experiences | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
Sorry, we played some music over you then but if you want to get in | :03:16. | :03:34. | |
touch, it you can on Twitter. Now it is time for the news with Joanna. | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
The High Street giant BHS is on the verge of collapse, | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
Efforts to find a buyer for the clothing and homeware chain, | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
which has been struggling with debts and a large pension deficit, | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
BHS, which has 164 stores, will go into administration | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
It's the biggest retail casualty since Woolworths eight years ago. | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
Our correspondent Sophie Long is on Oxford Street | :03:58. | :03:59. | |
This BHS is open and you would be forgiven for thinking it is business | :04:00. | :04:17. | |
as usual. We know it is not and the company will go into administration | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
and we are expecting a formal announcement later this morning. The | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
man who owns the BHS said in a letter to his 11,000 staff that he | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
was sincerely sorry and that they would be paid their wages this | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
month. That will come as little compensation for people who work | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
here. With respect to one lady who has worked here for 30 years and she | :04:40. | :04:48. | |
said she was devastated and she said they had had very little | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
communication from management. We know that BHS is likely to go into | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
administration later this morning. Thank you. | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
Plans to allow local councils to form their own academies | :05:00. | :05:01. | |
are being considered by the government. | :05:02. | :05:03. | |
It's to avert a backbench rebellion over forcing all state schools | :05:04. | :05:05. | |
The move comes amid mounting disquiet among some Conservative MPs | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
and councils over plans to force schools to opt out of | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
A group representing 37 largely Conservative local authorities has | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
warned that there is a risk that turning all state schools | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
into academies will fail to raise school standards. | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
And Labour says allowing councils to run their own academy chains | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
would still amount to a 'costly upheaval for thousands | :05:27. | :05:29. | |
Government sources have launched a scathing attack on junior doctors' | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
leaders in England - accusing them of trying to secure | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
the dismissal of health secretary Jeremy Hunt, | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
and staging 'a political strike' tomorrow. | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
If it goes ahead, it will be the first time in the history | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
of the NHS that junior doctors have walked out of accident | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
and emergency units, urgent maternity services | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
13,000 scheduled operations have already been cancelled. | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
The BMA says Mr Hunt should withdraw his threat | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
Nearly two-thirds of university students believe the National Union | :06:05. | :06:07. | |
of Students is right to have a "no platforming" policy, a survey | :06:08. | :06:10. | |
The policy means people or groups on a banned list because of | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
the opinions they hold on topics such as sexuality, | :06:17. | :06:18. | |
transgender issues and race - are not given a platform | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
to speak at student unions across the country. | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
Yesterday, King's College London withdrew its invitation | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
The feminist campaigner Julie Bindel has been no-platform after an | :06:33. | :06:42. | |
article she wrote. She has been likened to Hitler. They allow | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
misogynist Sue walk-through, they allow Muslim clerics who believe in | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
stoning gays to death and female genital mutilation. They allow them | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
on campus and I am banned by some of them. We have to remember that | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
student unions are collectives of students based on values and no safe | :07:06. | :07:15. | |
spaces -- and that safe spaces are decided democratically by students | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
and officers. I don't understand why this debate is up around student | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
unions when it is not around trade unions, just because people think | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
they have the right to speak to students. No, I don't. The way it | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
has been widely interpreted, it has gone too far. Atheist, secular and | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
humanist Society are having attempts to close down their meetings because | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
some people find their challenge to organised religion offensive. There | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
is absolutely a difference between no-platform, Democratic policy and | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
what has happened from a number of examples which have been given which | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
is essentially, there was a house party, you were not invited. That is | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
nothing to do with no-platform, that is that there was a conversation | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
about something happening and you were not invited to come so it is | :08:08. | :08:09. | |
not the same as a no-platform. The case for Britain remaining part | :08:10. | :08:23. | |
of the European Union will be set Theresa May will say | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
membership improves the UK's It comes in spite of previous | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
criticism she has made about The Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
who is part of the Leave campaign, says the UK faces a migration | :08:34. | :08:38. | |
"free-for-all" if it Calls for older children to be | :08:39. | :08:40. | |
routinely given the Meningitis B vaccine will be debated | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
by MPs today. Campaigners want under-11s | :08:45. | :08:45. | |
to be vaccinated as well as newborn babies, | :08:46. | :08:47. | |
who are the most at-risk group. The government says that's | :08:48. | :08:49. | |
not cost-effective. That's a summary of the latest BBC | :08:50. | :08:51. | |
News - more at 10.30. Thank you. A comment from Shelley. | :08:52. | :09:05. | |
Lots of National Union of Students leaders sharing a platform with | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Peter Tatchell and Julie Bindel. What no-platform? Trans people are | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
attacked by people who are quoting Julie Bindel and by black people | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
quoting Enoch Powell. Give neither airtime. A tweet from Clare says | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
Julie Bindel comes across well. Other people have tantrum like | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
views, yes, I am middle-aged. And this comment from Jackie says it | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
is ridiculous to suggest Julie Bindel attacks minorities. | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
More on this to come but first Jess with the sport. | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
It's becoming a familiar story these days, Leicester City have won again. | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
Now, they're just five points from an historic, first | :09:48. | :09:49. | |
Much was made of them being without their top scorer | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
Jamie Vardy yesterday, who's serving a suspension. | :09:54. | :09:54. | |
But they didn't seem to miss him too much, | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
In fact, the man that replaced Vardy, Leo Ulloa | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
So that puts Leicester eight points clear of Tottenham, | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Also on the scoresheet for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez. | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
The Algerian international has impressed all season, | :10:11. | :10:13. | |
averaging a goal every other game, and last night he won the PFA | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
The prize was presented to him by his boss Claudio Ranieri. | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
And because the ceremony was in London, just hours | :10:22. | :10:23. | |
after the game, the Leicester players had to travel by helicopter | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Tottenham's Dele Alli was voted the young player of the year - | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
and Izzy Christensen of Man City won the women's award. | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
I am happy. You are the first African player to win the award, | :10:41. | :10:51. | |
that has got to be a great achievement as well? I didn't know | :10:52. | :10:58. | |
that. There were big players in the Premier League, African. Drogba | :10:59. | :11:07. | |
never won it. The IR. -- Yahya will stop I am not the best, but the | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
first, so I am very happy! Crystal Palace are in their first FA | :11:11. | :11:12. | |
Cup Final for 26 years. They beat Watford 2-1 yesterday, | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
thanks to this man Conor Wickham They'll play Manchester United | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
in the final In Scotland, Celtic are close | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
to a fifth straight Premiership Fans protested before their game | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
yesterday, at the way the board This was ahead of their 1-1 draw | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
at home to Ross County. Leigh Griffiths gave Celtic | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
the lead with his 38th goal But just look at all those empty | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
seats in the background. Stewart Murdoch equalised for | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
County. Celtic are now nine points clear | :11:49. | :11:50. | |
at the top, but their players left the field to boos and jeers | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
from their supporters. Britain's Anthony Joshua will make | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
the first defence of his IBF world heavyweight champion | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
against unbeaten American Joshua won the title | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
from another American, Charles Martin last month | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
and will face Brazeel on June 25th Brazeel was beaten in the first | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
round of the London 2012 Olympics. Joshua went on to win | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
the gold medal. The bravest sporting performance | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
of the weekend surely came from Kenya's Jemima Sumgong | :12:22. | :12:32. | |
in the London Marathon. She fell with four miles to go | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
and cracked her head on the road No matter - Sumgong got back up, | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
dusted herself down and came She admitted she was | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
surprised to win. I think a few other people might | :12:43. | :12:50. | |
have been surprised as well! That is all the sport for now. | :12:51. | :12:52. | |
Thank you, Jessica. Good morning and welcome to | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
the programme. This morning, we're asking | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
whether free speech in British universities under | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
threat? I don't think we have got anywhere | :13:05. | :13:15. | |
near answering that question. So far we have heard one students say that | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
potentially their physical safety could be at risk. They could be | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
threatened if offensive speakers are allowed to take a platform at the | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
University. We have also heard from others who say if you cannot hear | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
from challenging, scary views and debate though that University, than | :13:33. | :13:40. | |
where can you? With us is a group of around 50 students and people who | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
say they have been silenced by student unions because they hold | :13:44. | :13:45. | |
views which others they are offensive. Don't we have the right | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
to hold offensive views and the right to be offended by them. Would | :13:50. | :13:57. | |
we agree with that? Tom Scott from the University of Essex. We surveyed | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
a representative sample of the British public on whether to ban | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
them or not ban them from UK campuses. 75% of the UK public | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
wanted to ban at least one speaker. The problem is they all differed on | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
which speaker to ban. Once you go down that road used at getting into | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
fights. We have heard that today, I want to ban the Speaker, I want to | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
ban that speaker. It becomes a ban first rather than an absolute. Your | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
survey was across the British public. Our survey was specifically | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
opt on 2000 British students. Two thirds of them supported the NUS | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
no-platforming policy. We gave ten specific examples and at least 75% | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
wanted to ban one or more of the speakers but they wanted to ban | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
different speakers. Some wanted to ban climate change deniers, others | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
wanted to ban Islamic clerics, others ambassadors. I think part of | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
this is with UK law being very unclear. On one hand you have the | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
education act of night in 86 we have the education act of 1986 | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
guaranteeing free speech but then there is another present agenda. It | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
is totally contradictory. The 1986 act enshrined is free | :15:21. | :15:33. | |
speech, the right to freedom of speech, giving universities and | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
obligation. Apologies for butchering that a little bit. But then a number | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
of other legislation is seen to say, wait, not this speaker, wait, you | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
have to do... Prevent is the government programme to take | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
extremists out of society and re-educate them. People who are | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
defined as extremists by the government. That's the crux of the | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
debate, who do we define as extremists? Students say one thing, | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
governments might say another, it's dependent on your point of view who | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
is an extremist. You have to take more of an absolute position. We | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
will talk more about Prevent. We can look at the history of | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
no-platforming at universities which goes back to 1974 when it was first | :16:25. | :16:26. | |
introduced. It was inspired in part | :16:27. | :16:28. | |
by the rise of racist groups like the National Front | :16:29. | :16:30. | |
and by the Conservative MP Enoch Powell who'd given a speech | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
in the late 60s - which became known as the "rivers of blood" speech - | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
which was anti immigration We must be mad - | :16:37. | :16:39. | |
literally mad - as a nation. In total six groups | :16:40. | :18:21. | |
are officially banned. They include the British National | :18:22. | :18:22. | |
Party, the English Defence League, Hizb Ut-Tahir - a radical Islamist | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
group which supports the introduction of a caliphate, | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
an Islamic state, in the Muslim world; and a group called the Muslim | :18:28. | :18:29. | |
Public Affairs Committee - a civil liberties group with a focus | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
on non-violent jihad, or struggle. We wanted to hear from MPAC today | :18:35. | :18:44. | |
and they were willing to join us - but the National Union of Students | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
won't debate with or appear alongside one | :18:49. | :18:50. | |
of the groups they've banned. We asked if they would leave | :18:51. | :18:52. | |
the room whilst we spoke to MPAC but they said they wouldn't appear | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
on the same programme as them. Richard Brooks - | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
vice-president of the NUS When we originally agreed to the | :18:59. | :19:14. | |
debate two months ago, the first time any member of staff at the NUS | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
was aware ten threw would be around was late on Friday. We have | :19:20. | :19:27. | |
democratically decided a policy of no-platforming at the National | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
conference, the names of those six organisations, it says we cannot | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
sure a platform with them, or debate with them because there views are | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
seen as offensive and extremist. That's our policy. What is it about | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
MPAC? I can't remember exactly when they were originally decided to be | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
part of the no-platform policy. It was 2004. I imagine it was because | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
they were seen as threatening or dangerous to a nub of students on | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
campus, probably Jewish students. They have been accused of being | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
anti-Semitic and extremist. They say they reject that absolutely. They | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
say to lump them in with with other extremist groups is totally unfair | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
because they are not extremist at all. They would love the chance to | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
talk to you or anyone else from the NUS to explain why they feel they | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
have been smeared, and that the ban is totally unfair. Nick Griffin | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
doesn't think he's an extremist either. Anyone who you put forward | :20:31. | :20:38. | |
that their views are extreme in some way, they would say they are normal | :20:39. | :20:45. | |
speakers of the ordinary people. Nick Griffin was on question Time. I | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
watched it. Do you know what happened to the BNP vote after that? | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
Before they are at they had about 240,000 votes, and after it went | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
down to about 20 4000. What do you think of that? The fact the support | :21:03. | :21:03. | |
collapsed. -- 20 4000. If -- 24000. I want to defend the NUS policy of | :21:04. | :21:25. | |
no-platform. I specifically think the aim of the policy is to stop | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
organising fascists and racists from being on campus. The reason we have | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
this is because when they came onto campus from the 1970s to the 1990s, | :21:35. | :21:39. | |
they attacked officers and students on campus. Bringing up the point of | :21:40. | :21:47. | |
Nick Griffin, I think specifically for fascist, and although I like the | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
BBC, I think it's a mass campaigning by students and the NUS against | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
making sure people turned out to vote against Nick Griffin, that | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
broke the back of what he did. Also that organisation didn't build. In | :22:00. | :22:06. | |
France, the Front National, the sister organisation of the BNP, | :22:07. | :22:13. | |
there is no no-platforming policy in France, and Marine Le Pen is | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
threatening to become a very powerful person. We should defend | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
the no-platform policy in Britain. Are there people here who believe | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
that no group, irrespective of their views, no group should be banned | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
from speaking at universities. Yes? I'm a student at Kings College. It's | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
interesting the NUS keep saying they are a democratic organisation. They | :22:40. | :22:46. | |
were elected with less than 0.01%... Can I bring you back to the point, | :22:47. | :22:49. | |
why you think no group should be banned. I think their thoughts | :22:50. | :22:57. | |
should be challenged. When you have groups like the NUS who are elected | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
by so few people, who decides what can be said. Who's making those | :23:01. | :23:07. | |
decisions? You would want to see Islamic extremists speak at | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
university? I would like to see them challenged. Maybe don't invite them, | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
but they shouldn't be stopped from coming. If a society wants them, | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
that's fair enough and we should challenge those views. I'm a | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
graduate from the University of Liverpool. Just a couple of comments | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
about the NUS representatives who say it's nothing to do with us, we | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
didn't banned those organisations, it was the individual unions. They | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
support the safe space Wallasey that facilitates the culture around the | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
country on campuses of banning several different speakers, | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
progressive speakers, feminists, and it facilitates that culture. The | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
idea of safe spaces, the idea of campuses being safe spaces... Why in | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
inverted commas? They will never create a safe space everyone, there | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
will always be different opinions, but what it says is that outside | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
campus, the rest of society is unsafe and dangerous. They are views | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
we should not engage with. Ukip, three million-plus votes in a | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
general election. Our student union say that we don't speak to you, you | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
are xenophobes and racist. That will not change things. It will not | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
change wider society, it will be a self-righteous cocoon that will not | :24:32. | :24:38. | |
change a thing. I work for index on censorship, a free expression group. | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
We spend a lot of time during this debate on using words that people | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
seem to have different definitions about, so when we say no-platform or | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
safe space, or even harm, one of the problems is that there has been an | :24:53. | :24:57. | |
ever expanding definition of what is harmful, or what causes threats or | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
is threatening. People who actively inside violence, and where there is | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
a credible and imminent threat, then there is a threat and they should | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
not speak. However, many groups who are offensive, and we talk about | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
Marine Le Pen and national front, and I'm French so I feel I can | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
respond to this, yes, the far right is growing across Europe. If we are | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
not given the opportunity to challenge their views and ideas, if | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
we cannot immediately expose their bigotry and intolerance and | :25:33. | :25:34. | |
prejudice, we cannot win the fight against them. This lady over here. | :25:35. | :25:44. | |
I'm a politics and international Asians student. In response to the | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
comments just made, we're forgetting to address incidents such as... The | :25:52. | :26:00. | |
former commander-in-chief of the Israeli navy who was complicit in | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
torture of Palestinians and has not gone through a just trial. He was | :26:05. | :26:09. | |
invited to Kings College. In this regard I'm for no-platforming | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
because the audience that was allowed to listen to his speech was | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
selected in accordance with the agreement of his speech. How are you | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
supposed to challenge those views in University when you are not allowed | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
to sit in the same room as him? He is not here to defend in South, nor | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
do I know whether that is true about Kings College. -- himself. Should | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
there be any limits on freedom of speech? I think free speech is one | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
of the most important and precious of all human rights. Some of the | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
most important thinkers in history, Galileo, Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
they caused great offence in their time. I think the criteria in | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
restricting free speech has become narrowly defined. If somebody makes | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
false, damaging and harmful allegations against a person, such | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
as they are a rapist or tax fraudster. If they encourage, | :27:06. | :27:12. | |
threaten, abuse or harass, inside violence, that is also a red line. | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
Beyond that, I think we have to listen to points of view, not accept | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
them, but to listen and challenge those points of view. That's the key | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
thing. Bad ideas are best defeated by better ideas, not by censorship. | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
Should there be limits on freedom of speech? My name is Matthew and I'm | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
president of the philosophy and religious studies is IT at Kings | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
College. I was hoping somebody would come onto the topic of human rights. | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
-- religious studies Society. There is a right to freedom of speech and | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
I agree with that. If you bring into that, you have a right to be free | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
from harm or violence, how do we cope with institutional violence | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
towards minority figures, and we have to look in the case of minority | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
groups, it's the minority group themselves who should define what is | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
harmful to them. So if you believe someone is being racist to you, | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
that's enough? If you believe someone is being offensive because | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
of views on trans, that's enough? I wouldn't say that's enough, but I | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
think it's a crucial point of information we need to consider. For | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
example if there were transgender students, or people in the community | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
who felt some comments were transferred, because it's the | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
minority they are involved in, they will have more of an insight as to | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
why it's offensive. The comments made earlier about the sombrero, | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
this is not something that's in our culture, it would be eight minority | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
of, for example, Mexican students in the UK, and it would be their | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
opinion if it was... At Goldsmiths College, the Islamic Society decided | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
that an Iranian commonest and feminist who has a critic of | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
organised religion, particularly of theocracies like Iran and Saudi | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
Arabia, and the way some extremists advocate the killing of female | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
adulterers, gay people, and they tried to stop her is saying that it | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
was violating their safe space because her views were offensive. | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
But she was able to speak? She was invited again. She was allowed to | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
speak, but throughout this, fascists screamed and jabbed in a face and | :29:39. | :29:42. | |
try to is a test she was somehow against the human rights. -- and | :29:43. | :29:55. | |
tried to suggest. Peter Tatchell, some people said you were racist, | :29:56. | :29:59. | |
would you like to respond to that and reference what it was about? I | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
simply say, where is the evidence? There is no evidence for that claim. | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
I have asked my accusers and none of them can provide any evidence. This | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
is what is particularly offensive about some aspects of student | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
politics today. People make false and baseless allegations to try to | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
discredit their opponents without any evidence. Is there anyone here | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
who has evidence Peter Tatchell has held racist views? It mirrors the | :30:29. | :30:32. | |
far right, it's exactly the tactic of the far right to if a man smear | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
and lie about other people. Does anyone here have evidence Peter | :30:38. | :30:44. | |
Tatchell has expressed racist views? I'm Tom and I'm a student in London. | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
I think what was said about Peter Tatchell and how he hasn't really | :30:51. | :31:00. | |
benefited Islamic, Muslim, trans and black people, activists, whatever, | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
it was more about the fact he's very quick to wade into debates about | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
shutting down Islamic speakers, but when it comes to other people, he's | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
fine. As long as you agree with him, you will not shut you down. | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
Nonsense! That's what it comes down to. The reason nobody came back and | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
his accusers didn't come back is because he had silenced them. What | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
happened was a private e-mail was sent and Peter Tatchell smeared | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
himself publicly and ended up outing a member of the NUS. Frankie, for | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
that, he should be ashamed of himself. | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
This is exactly the dirty smear tactics which is so objectionable | :31:46. | :31:55. | |
about student politics today. I did not out Fran. She was the LGBT | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
officer. She had been an LGBT protests. She had been spoken in the | :32:01. | :32:07. | |
press as an out LGBT person. Secondly, on your point about hate | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
preachers and Islamist. I have never argued for the banning of anybody, | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
simply because they express hateful views. It is only when they endorse | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
violence that I have sought to seek to get them banned. That applies to | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
Islamist preachers, Christian preachers, far right experiments and | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
so on. It is not true that I have singled out the Muslim community, | :32:33. | :32:35. | |
and in fact, my organisation, the Peter Tatchell | :32:36. | :32:51. | |
foundation is the only organisation in this country which has an | :32:52. | :32:53. | |
organisation called LGBT Muslim solidarity, to build bridges between | :32:54. | :32:55. | |
the LGBT community and the wider Muslim community, on the basis that | :32:56. | :32:56. | |
we should unite against all hate. After the news and sport we will | :32:57. | :33:05. | |
look at who else potentially should be banned from universities because | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
of their views, Katie Hopkins, Prince Charles, Stephen Fry, the | :33:11. | :33:12. | |
list could go on. Here is Joanna. The High Street giant BHS | :33:13. | :33:29. | |
is on the verge of collapse, Efforts to find a buyer | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
for the clothing and homeware chain, which has been struggling with debts | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
and a large pension deficit, BHS, which has 164 stores, | :33:36. | :33:38. | |
will go into administration It's the biggest retail casualty | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
since Woolworths eight years ago. Plans to allow local councils | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
to form their own academies are being considered | :33:46. | :33:47. | |
by the government. It's to avert a backbench rebellion | :33:48. | :33:48. | |
over forcing all state schools The move comes amid mounting | :33:49. | :33:51. | |
disquiet among some Conservative MPs and councils over plans to force | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
schools to opt out of A group representing 37 largely | :33:56. | :33:57. | |
Conservative local authorities has warned that there is a risk that | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
turning all state schools into academies will fail | :34:02. | :34:03. | |
to raise school standards. And Labour says allowing councils | :34:04. | :34:05. | |
to run their own academy chains would still amount to a "costly | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
upheaval for thousands Government sources have launched | :34:09. | :34:10. | |
a scathing attack on junior doctors' leaders in England - | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
accusing them of trying to secure the dismissal of health | :34:19. | :34:20. | |
secretary Jeremy Hunt, and staging 'a political | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
strike' tomorrow. If it goes ahead, it will be | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
the first time in the history of the NHS that junior doctors have | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
walked out of accident and emergency units, | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
urgent maternity services and mental 13,000 scheduled operations have | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
already been cancelled. The BMA says Mr Hunt should | :34:36. | :34:41. | |
withdraw his threat Nearly two-thirds of university | :34:42. | :34:43. | |
students believe the National Union of Students is right to have a "no | :34:44. | :35:10. | |
platforming" policy, a survey The policy means people or groups | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
on a banned list because of the opinions they hold | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
on topics such as sexuality, transgender issues and race - | :35:18. | :35:19. | |
are not given a platform to speak at student unions | :35:20. | :35:21. | |
across the country. In France, the front National, the | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
sister organisation of the BNP, there is no no-platforming policy. | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
We should defend it. That's a summary of the latest | :35:38. | :35:44. | |
news, join me for Thank you, a couple more messages. | :35:45. | :35:59. | |
David slows this leads to a tiny minority of views. Another person | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
says I am feeling depressed. If your current gathering is representative | :36:05. | :36:07. | |
of students then the future looks weak. If anybody says blue to any of | :36:08. | :36:17. | |
your lot, they will be running home to money for a hug. Another view | :36:18. | :36:24. | |
says they should discuss the subject they are banning. Ryan says Richard | :36:25. | :36:32. | |
Brooks the no-platform policy Democratic is laughable. | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
More on that to come but first Jess with the sport... | :36:36. | :36:48. | |
Now, they're just five points from an historic, first | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
Much was made of them being without their top scorer | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
Jamie Vardy yesterday, who's serving a suspension. | :36:56. | :36:57. | |
But they didn't seem to miss him too much, | :36:58. | :36:59. | |
In fact, the man that replaced Vardy, Leo Ulloa | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
So that puts Leicester eight points clear of Tottenham, | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
Also on the scoresheet for Leicester was Riyad Mahrez. | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
The Algerian international has impressed all season, | :37:12. | :37:12. | |
averaging a goal every other game, and last night he won the PFA | :37:13. | :37:15. | |
The prize was presented to him by his boss Claudio Ranieri. | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
Crystal Palace are in their first FA Cup Final for 26 years. | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
They beat Watford 2-1 yesterday, thanks to Conor Wickham | :37:26. | :37:27. | |
They'll play Manchester United in the final | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
Britain's Anthony Joshua will make the first defence of his IBF world | :37:31. | :37:38. | |
heavyweight champion against unbeaten American | :37:39. | :37:39. | |
Joshua will face Brazeel on June 25th | :37:40. | :37:52. | |
Hello. The election of the National Union of Students new president has | :37:53. | :38:22. | |
been overshadowed. She has called her old University Birmingham | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
something of a Zionist outpost. Some say she should be Ben Thompson for | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
some of her views. As you would expect, we invited her on to our | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
programme today and she said No. Her vice president Richard Brooks is | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
here. How was what she has said in the past less offensive than what | :38:42. | :38:48. | |
some organisations have said. You do not know platform individuals, you | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
know platform organisations. The second thing is we disagree on a | :38:54. | :39:03. | |
number of different things. I supported someone else. She has been | :39:04. | :39:11. | |
elected democratically by the largest student gathering in the | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
world. I think she has been put under an intense amount of scrutiny | :39:16. | :39:24. | |
compared with a white man. There are concerns from Jewish students and | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
she is trying to address those concerns. What I would say to a | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
number of people, there are three months still to go until she starts | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
her presidency. I for one, despite that I did not vote for her, will | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
give her the opportunity to prove that she can be the president she | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
wants to be. Hello. I'm George Harrison, a student at the London | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
School of economics. Do you support the new President? If you were on | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
the outside looking in you would be worried about the future of students | :40:02. | :40:10. | |
but the NUS is a joke. There are only a couple of hundred people who | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
are allowed to vote for the president, it is not a brilliant | :40:16. | :40:23. | |
mandate. I do think we should be worried about the NUS. Who does | :40:24. | :40:31. | |
support the new president? I also did not vote for her but I do trust | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
the democracy of the NUS. There were eight from my union because it is | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
big. It is a representative sample of students from around the UK. 800 | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
people is a lot of people. Who does not support them? I am heading up | :40:48. | :40:54. | |
Cambridge's campaign to disaffiliate from the NUS. Why? I think the | :40:55. | :41:01. | |
election of Miley is concerning. She has gone some way to addressing the | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
concerns of Jewish students about anti-Semitic comments, but it is -- | :41:07. | :41:19. | |
she was endorsed by somebody from MPAC. She replied on Facebook with | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
thanks and a smiley face. Further to that, we have been talking about how | :41:27. | :41:31. | |
this is not about necessarily it is the right weather and not to be | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
offended, it is about safety. People are talking about safety and harm. | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
At an event that she attended in 2014, she said nonviolent struggle | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
against the State of Israel was not enough. She endorsed violent | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
struggle against the state of Israel. A close friend of mine who | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
is a student at Cambridge University, in his summer holidays a | :41:57. | :42:00. | |
couple of years ago, he was around the corner from a rocket which | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
detonated in Tel Aviv. Watches that was, with mainstream Zionist | :42:07. | :42:16. | |
outlets, resistance is am -- resistance... Any claim to be | :42:17. | :42:23. | |
supporting the NUS' general idea is that safe space is important is | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
rendered laughable by her failure to live up to the standards of her | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
organisation. I want to read you a Facebook post from the union of | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
Jewish students. This is from Russell. He says he has made it | :42:37. | :42:42. | |
clear to her that the anger Jewish students possess after her election | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
result cannot disappear after just a few meetings. She needs to properly | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
distance herself from her past rhetoric, issue sincere apologies | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
and also commit to avoiding any flirtation with anti-Semitic | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
stereotypes in the future. Without these steps, Jewish students will | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
feel they are unable to engage with the NUS under her leadership. I was | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
stopped from speaking on violence against women because I had said, | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
along with many Muslim born feminist colleagues of mine, that the full | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
face veil was a symbol of women's oppression. Which I think is a | :43:18. | :43:26. | |
totally reasonable argument. I wonder what would happen if I said | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
it was a Muslim enclave. As a poet -- as she said Birmingham was a | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
Zionist outpost. Shows the sloppy thinking of these students. Sloppy | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
thinking at the NUS? I want to clarify a couple of important | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
things. Firstly, she did not vote against or condemn a motion | :43:47. | :43:51. | |
condemning Isis. She Major came back to make sure the wording was | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
accurate and did not condemn all Muslims -- she made sure it came | :43:57. | :44:04. | |
back. And secondly, comments around the Zionist them are around the | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
Palestinian and Israeli struggle, they are not around Judaism. I think | :44:08. | :44:15. | |
people who continually deliberately misconstrue her language as | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
anti-Semitic are failing to engage with her and the debates and | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
concerns of many students on campus is that we talked to every day. When | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
she said Birmingham University is something of a Zionist outpost, what | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
are you saying she actually was meaning? I am not here to explain | :44:35. | :44:39. | |
that. The point is that there is a difference between arguing for the | :44:40. | :44:47. | |
freedom of Palestine and arguing or attempting to in anyway offend or | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
limit Jewish students. She has commented since her election and she | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
is trying to set a really high standard and how we can conduct the | :45:01. | :45:03. | |
Israel Palestine debate without falling into these traps which cause | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
further divisions which we constantly try and avoid. It would | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
be good for her to come and we did invite her but she said no. Have | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
some students from Kings. There is a student think tank which has | :45:20. | :45:21. | |
withdrawn an invitation to Boris Johnson to speak in terms of the | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
leaving the EU referendum campaign because of his comments on Friday | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
about President Obama and his part Kenyan ancestry and whether that | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
made him anti-British. What do we think about with the withdrawal of | :45:35. | :45:36. | |
that invitation? Including the debate with Malia, it | :45:37. | :45:47. | |
shows that no-platforming is used to make a political point. We have | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
rules against inciting racial hatred and violence, and it's the law. | :45:53. | :45:55. | |
Everything beyond that is arbitrary. The for banning people like Boris | :45:56. | :46:01. | |
Johnson and Peter Tatchell, is nothing more than a political | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
statement. Boris Johnson hadn't accepted that invitation anyway. I | :46:05. | :46:10. | |
think the best way to prove him wrong would to put him in front of a | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
bright and articulated bunch of students who would do that. I think | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
it comes down to a ridiculous notion. If you're going to withdraw | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
an application from Boris Johnson, do we say that because Boris has | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
offended somebody, there will be no platform for the entire Conservative | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
Party, or if Jeremy Corbyn offends a student, we then ban the entire | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
Labour Party? Who gets to decide what is the offence in University? . | :46:39. | :46:51. | |
Somebody who hasn't spoken... The fact that we even know about these | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
people means they have a platform. The fact student unions have a right | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
and can keep that right to withdraw an invitation at any point they want | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
to, but be clear that the vast majority of external speakers | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
invited are allowed to speak. If a student comes to me, and I'm from | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
the University of Liverpool, if they student comes to me or a group comes | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
to me and say they are concerned about a speaker, we will put | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
measures in place to mitigate any levels of harm. And they will last | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
case scenario we might have to withdraw. What do you mean by | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
potential harm? Violence? That's the individual's decision. What do they | :47:31. | :47:36. | |
say to you when they say, I'm worried about potential harm? A huge | :47:37. | :47:43. | |
variety of things. Like what? They might feel threatened, under | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
pressure, they might have mental health issues meaning they can't | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
partake in the debate. They don't have to come, but we try a number of | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
different measures to make sure they feel like they can't partake in | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
those activities in the same way every other student can do. That's | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
as far as it goes, but if somebody wants to withdraw their invitation, | :48:05. | :48:12. | |
they can do and that's their right. I'm a student at LSE. I think what | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
Boris Johnson said was stupid, personally. Coming back to the point | :48:16. | :48:22. | |
made earlier by Richard, the whole situation being like a house party, | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
getting invited. Universities are not house parties, they are public | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
institutions of learning where you are meant to challenge views. For | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
people to establish walls to protect you from stupidity like Boris | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
Johnson, it's ridiculous. I understand these policies are made | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
to protect people like me, and I'm a gay man with a disability, but I | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
don't want to... Thank you very much, but I don't need your | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
protection. I don't need to be protected from MPAC. It's not just | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
me, people might say, I might say that because that is my live | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
experience. It's not just me saying it. I've talked to black and | :49:05. | :49:10. | |
minority ethnic eagle, trans people, women, other oppressed minorities in | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
my universities, and they say the same thing. -- ethnic minority | :49:16. | :49:23. | |
people. There might be people who are gay men, with a disability, who | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
do not have your confidence, who might feel that by having a speaker | :49:28. | :49:34. | |
who would make them feel potentially threatened, it would further | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
marginalise them. Why not protect them from hearing that? The point of | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
going to university... I've lived my entire life being called defective, | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
all sorts of horrible things on the basis of both my civility and | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
homosexuality. The reason I can say this on my show now, and I'm an | :49:54. | :49:59. | |
actor as well, and that's beside the point! It's because I've had the | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
experience of having to fight against people like that. | :50:04. | :50:06. | |
Unfortunately I've not had a life protected from people who call me | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
defected or a crime against humanity. One priest wanted to | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
exorcise me. I thought it was an extremely detaining situation. The | :50:17. | :50:20. | |
idea we need to be detected from things, I have a problem with that. | :50:21. | :50:27. | |
-- need to be protected. We are coming to the end of the programme. | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
I want to bring in imaging. It was thought you were violating a safe | :50:33. | :50:40. | |
space at Edinburgh. What did you do? This. I raised both hands in the | :50:41. | :50:50. | |
air. What happened? A safe space complaint was made, the only | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
complaint made all year then, and students voted for me to stay. Is | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
that an example of the policy working? Exactly. When somebody made | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
a complaint you were violating safe space by raising both arms, what did | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
you say and think? I thought it was ludicrous but was willing to hear | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
what they had to say. I didn't know what I had done the specifically at | :51:14. | :51:15. | |
that point. The complaint was made anonymously. Even though you were | :51:16. | :51:22. | |
not forced out of the meeting, there was an attempt to eject her simply | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
because she raised her arm. That was deemed to be a violation of the safe | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
space policy. They are entitled to that opinion, but not to eject you | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
from the meeting. But I wasn't ejected. But they tried, some people | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
wanted to try to eject you. But that was their right. For the next few | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
minutes, we are going to put some scenarios to the test and ask you | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
whether the following people should be banned from speaking at | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
universities because of their views. Jeremy Corbyn... You know who he is, | :51:59. | :52:07. | |
the leader of the Labour Party, once described Hamas, the militant | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
Islamic movement, who believe, sexuality should be punished by | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
death, as our friends will stop should Jeremy Corbyn be banned? That | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
was unanimous. No. Katie Hopkins has said various things that people | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
potentially find offensive. She makes a career of it, like comparing | :52:30. | :52:31. | |
migrants to crutches. like comparing migrants | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
to cockroaches, saying "Show me pictures of coffins, | :52:37. | :52:38. | |
show me bodies floating in water, play violins and show me skinny | :52:39. | :52:40. | |
people looking sad. I still don't | :52:41. | :52:42. | |
care." City should she the band, yes or no? | :52:43. | :52:54. | |
Yes, no. This is what happened when she was at Brunel University last | :52:55. | :52:55. | |
year. What do you think about the way the | :52:56. | :53:41. | |
students reacted? APPLAUSE A quick word, turning their backs | :53:42. | :53:46. | |
and walking out? Some imagination but utterly cowardly. I think we | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
have to have the debate. That rate was about welfare. It was a really | :53:52. | :53:54. | |
important discussion. There were lots of views on the table, not just | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
Katie Hopkins. They want a simple black and white and is to how we | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
sort out welfare in this country. That was an opportunity to learn | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
something, listen, not just to people like 80 kids. We can all use | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
stunts like that, but it's not moving politics forward. We will not | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
fight for a better world that way, and we will not be able to develop | :54:20. | :54:28. | |
our own intellect that way. -- people like Katie Hopkins. It is not | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
an NUS emotion, it's not a game, it's not for or against. She called | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
immigrants cockroaches. I can't stand either, but that's not the | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
point. It's a tactic you can deploy. It's not one I advocate. I think it | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
was immature. I'm suggesting a broader climate... This is really | :54:50. | :55:02. | |
serious. We live in a world in which many people from this country, | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
British beeper, young people, they are joining Isis. We live in a world | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
where there is war and all sorts of challenges. I'm suggesting that your | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
generation has a lot on your plate. We live in a climate where freedom | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
is being eroded daily. If you are part of the generation snowflake, | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
get rid of the stuff they can toughen up, because you have to | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
change this world and you can't do it by running out on Katie Hopkins. | :55:30. | :55:38. | |
I think it absolutely makes a statement that the students do not | :55:39. | :55:40. | |
agree with her, and they are exercising their right to spree | :55:41. | :55:48. | |
speech. We have -- free speech. Everybody here has also been given a | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
platform to speak. Katie Hopkins can say whatever she likes. We don't | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
have to give her a space to do it. Next, Stephen Fry. | :55:59. | :56:00. | |
OK, next - Stephen Fry - a national treasure - | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
but he's also said this of abuse victims "your self-pity gets none | :56:04. | :56:05. | |
of my sympathy because self pity is the ugliest emotion in humanity" | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
- clearly those views are offensive to anyone who's been abused - | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
Should he be banned? No. I personally think the whole idea of | :56:16. | :56:25. | |
having no-platform is symbolic. Why shouldn't Stephen Fry be banned for | :56:26. | :56:32. | |
those views? We are again going to the idea of going to a culture of | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
offence. This has resonated in classrooms today. If you say | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
something slightly more nuanced than the propelled vision, there are | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
alarmed bells going off saying you are misogynist or something like | :56:47. | :56:48. | |
that. People don't listen to what you are saying. Why is what Stephen | :56:49. | :56:55. | |
Fry has said anything better than what Julie Bindel hazard in the | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
past, for example? From my own experience, I was sexually abused | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
when I was younger. I think his views on this were quite appalling, | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
the way he talks about this idea that we victimise ourselves. Whether | :57:09. | :57:16. | |
I see myself as a victim or not, it was my rapist to victimise me first | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
and foremost. I personally think if he were to try to have some sort of | :57:21. | :57:30. | |
platform. I e-mailed Mind, is who he is the president off, and I don't | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
think he should be representative of that charity. I don't care if he is | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
banned from universities. But you care about Julie Bindel? Again, I | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
don't really mind, I have seen what you have said about transgender | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
people, and I disagree. That was an article from 13 years ago. It is | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
some strength we could value, it gave people have the strength to | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
submit these views and challenge them, there is strength there. | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
If you go to our programme page bbc.co.uk/victoria you can find | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
an interview with one of the NUS's banned groups - and if you log | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
onto bbc news' Facebook page we'll be hosting a live debate | :58:12. | :58:14. | |
on the issue - do send us your questions. | :58:15. | :58:16. | |
Thank you very much for your company. | :58:17. | :58:21. |