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Between now and 11 we'll be taking about the economy, jobs, | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
immigration, national security, and the campaign itself | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
and what kind of Britain you want to live in. | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
But before all that Rebecca Jones has a summary of the news. | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean | :02:32. | :02:33. | |
Britain has to pay billions of pounds more | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
The remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
would have a veto on any proposed budget increase. | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
We'll be back live in Manchester shortly | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
to hear from voters and a panel of politicians from both | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
Scientists in the United States have begun using a controversial | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
technique to create human organs, by growing them inside pigs. | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
Critics have expressed ethical concerns about the project, | :03:03. | :03:05. | |
by a research team at the University of California, which involves | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
injecting human stem cells into pig embryos. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
The aim is to produce a pancreas suitable for a human transplant. | :03:14. | :03:20. | |
Our hope is that this pig embryo will develop normally, | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
but the pancreas will be made almost exclusively out of human | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
cells so that then, that pancreas can be compatible | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
The body of Muhammad Ali has arrived in his hometown | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
The boxing legend died at the weekend. | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
His family accompanied the coffin as it was driven in a convoy | :03:43. | :03:45. | |
His funeral will take place there on Friday, when former US | :03:46. | :03:51. | |
President Bill Clinton will deliver a eulogy. | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
At least three people have been killed and nine injured in a crash | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
involving two trains in eastern Belgium. | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
Some of the injured are critically hurt. | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
The accident happened when a high speed passenger service crashed | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
into the back of a goods train near the city of Liege | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
An eyewitness said two carriages had been completely destroyed. | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
A new study suggests that women who've had breast cancer | :04:19. | :04:20. | |
could benefit from staying on hormone blocking drugs | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
That's more than double the number of years they're | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
The US study found that long term use of the drugs could cut the risk | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
However there are also warnings about the drugs' side effects. | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
It's all about balancing the risks and benefits. | :04:43. | :04:44. | |
There was an increased risk of bone fractures in the study, | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
so it's most likely appropriate for those women at highest | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
Three people have died along the east coast of Australia | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
Hundreds of homes were evacuated in New South Wales, Queensland | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
More than twenty flood warnings are in place. | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
In Sydney, beach front homes have been partly washed away | :05:08. | :05:10. | |
by an unusually high tide and big waves. | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
An award-winning American photo-journalist and his Afghan | :05:17. | :05:19. | |
translator have been killed in a Taliban ambush | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
David Gilkey, who was 50, worked for National Public Radio in the US. | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
They died when the army convoy they were travelling | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
That's a summary of the latest BBC News - more at 10.00. | :05:33. | :05:43. | |
Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat. | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
He was beaten in four sets by World Number One Novak | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
Djokovic, who claimed his first title in Paris. | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
He becomes only the eighth player in the Open era to win all four | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
Grand Slams and the first since Rod Laver in 1969 to hold them | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
Wales ended their preparations for Euro | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
2016 on an underwhelming note - they were beaten 3-0 in Sweden. | :06:11. | :06:12. | |
Wales' first game at the Championship is against | :06:13. | :06:13. | |
Jamie Vardy is expected to decide whether he'll join Arsenal | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
from Leicester City later this morning. | :06:19. | :06:19. | |
The decision is expected to be made before he flies out with the England | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
squad to France for Euro 2016 at 11.30 this morning. | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
Mo Farah broke the British 3,000 metre record at the Diamond League | :06:28. | :06:29. | |
The double Olympic champion recorded a time of 7 minutes, | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
32.62 seconds to break David Moorcroft's long standing | :06:36. | :06:37. | |
Good morning and welcome to the programme. | :06:38. | :06:50. | |
We're live in Manchester at the old Granada Television | :06:51. | :06:52. | |
Studios, once home to Coronation Street, | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
but today it'll be home to a debate on the future of the united kingdom | :06:56. | :06:57. | |
and whether we should stay in or leave the European Union. | :06:58. | :07:05. | |
With us this morning, 145 voters from right across the UK. | :07:06. | :07:08. | |
Sitting over here 50 people who say they're going to vote leave, | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
sitting here in the middle 45 people who say they don't yet know how | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
they're going to vote, and sitting here 50 people who say | :07:21. | :07:22. | |
they're going to vote to remain in the European Union. | :07:23. | :07:24. | |
Also with us for Leave - Suella Fernandes, a Conservative MP, | :07:25. | :07:28. | |
and Jane Collins, a UKIP MEP, they want the UK to leave | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
And for Remain Sal Brinton, President of the Liberal Democrats | :07:36. | :07:49. | |
and Geeta Sidhu-Robb who's a business woman who runs | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
She's also a member of the "women in" campaign, they want the UK | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
So later in the programme we'll talk about the impact on jobs, | :08:00. | :08:10. | |
the economy, immigration and national security, | :08:11. | :08:12. | |
but first of all let's start by hearing from some of you. | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
Good morning. I can't climb Francis, originally from London, a student, | :08:18. | :08:35. | |
part-time low skilled worker and the main reason I am voting to leave is | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
because first of all Britain needs its own sovereignty. And the effect | :08:40. | :08:47. | |
that being in the EU has had on low skilled workers, which the Remain | :08:48. | :08:55. | |
Campaign do not seem to be able to grasp fully. And by that you mean | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
competition for jobs? Low wages, competition for jobs, people needing | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
to apply for 500 jobs before they can get one. That is not the Britain | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
I grew up in. That is not the Britain I want to be a part of. We | :09:12. | :09:19. | |
need to stop being so scared of these tactics. We are better than | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
that, we are smarter than that. We know these people are waffling, we | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
know the deal, we get it. You want to maintain the status quo, but the | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
simple fact is everybody needs to be factored into this decision. They | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
should not be about businesses, it needs to be about people. Clem, stay | :09:40. | :09:49. | |
there. The gentleman over here. My name is Jimmy and I am originally | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
from Lincolnshire and I am a comedian and a musician. I am voting | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
to remain because there is more to Britain and the argument let's make | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
Britain great again because we could make Britain for the future which is | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
more culturally diverse and interesting. I am not an economist, | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
I just hear a lot of talk about money all the time and I cannot say | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
whether the economy will be better or worse. Exactly. I am not going to | :10:19. | :10:26. | |
say if we remain it will be better, but I like being part of the bigger | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
picture. I like the fact that the UK could remain part of this big thing | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
that is Europe and I think instead of making the Great Britain we could | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
make a great Europe. Reality check, my friend. Britain is already | :10:40. | :10:49. | |
multicultural. It is multicultural and has been for the best part of 70 | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
years or more. It has already happened. That is different from | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
having people coming from outside and undercutting our low skilled | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
workers, OK? It is not about we want to be inclusive. Forget | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
inclusiveness. What about British people? What about the low skilled | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
people who are not being protected? What about the people who have not | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
got an academic background, who are not innovators? Who looks after | :11:24. | :11:31. | |
them? Excuse me, what are you talking about? This country has not | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
protected their workers at all since the 80s and it is only because of | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
Europe that we have any kind of protection. This is the only country | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
in the world that has zero hours contracts. Fair enough, but the | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
bottom line is we cannot have a situation whereby British people are | :11:53. | :11:58. | |
coming second. It makes no sense. Britain cannot be controlled by | :11:59. | :12:09. | |
Belgium, OK? Hang on. Take the seat. I would not leave workers' rights to | :12:10. | :12:17. | |
this Tory Government. Without Europe you would not have maternity rights, | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
the social chapter, the working Time directive. Don't forget, immigration | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
from outside the EU is more than what it is from inside the EU. It is | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
not because of the EU. Let's hear from that and decided. Does that | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
kind of conversation overwhelm you or help you? What would you say? I | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
have heard both sides and to be honest personally for me neither one | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
side helps. I am a small business owner from Sheffield, but I am also | :12:50. | :12:56. | |
a youth worker. My youth worker 's side and a lot of the third sector | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
is offered money from the EU. If we leave the EU, while our Government | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
continue to support the homeless? What do you think? Probably not. It | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
means more unemployment and the most vulnerable in our society I left | :13:17. | :13:25. | |
short yet again. How important do you feel this decision is? For me | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
personally it is huge. For my business I would prefer to leave | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
because we might lose some of the red tape which we are held back by, | :13:36. | :13:40. | |
but for my job I preferred to remain. I have also got three small | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
children to consider as well. We have just got over two weeks to go, | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
how will you reach a conclusion? Hopefully after today a miracle will | :13:53. | :13:57. | |
happen and somebody will give me some answers. America has never | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
happened on our programme! You might be the first. At least today set out | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
a plan, if we leave, how will we leave? Will we go with David Cameron | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
who says it will take 20 years, or Nigel Farage who said it will take | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
two. Or others who say two, but it will take a few more years. Thank | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
you, Claire. I am Adam, an estate agent from Warrington. I am really | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
undecided. If we leave, will be flurries? If we stay, will be crash | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
and burn? We keep getting rhetoric from both sides and I hope today we | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
will learn a little bit more about what we will get from the EU or | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
staying in the UK. How important is this decision for you? For me it is | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
massive, the same as Claire. I am undecided because depending on my | :14:55. | :14:56. | |
work life or death pending on my future, it is an issue for me. | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
Things like the economy and the housing market, you cannot buy a | :15:03. | :15:08. | |
one-bedroom flat in London for ?300,000 and you can buy a five | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
bedroom mansion in Warrington for that money and the disparity is | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
wrong. We're leaving the UK raise house prices or will they go down? | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
How much responsibility do you feel when it comes to this boat? | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
Like my friend was saying here earlier on, if there was a vote | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
tomorrow, for me, if there was a vote today, I would probably leave | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
just for the sheer, let's have a go at it. I'm thinking about my kids in | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
30, 40 years' time, how is that going to affect them? That's a big | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
decision to have on my shoulders. Well, let's hear from our guests. | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
Good morning, Jane Collins. So you have heard a little bit of the | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
debate where you're very familiar with. You've heard from a couple of | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
undecided people. What do you want to say to them this morning? I | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
think, I don't want to give you sound bites. I want to try, as you | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
said, and answer your queries today and I think what we have got it look | :16:07. | :16:13. | |
at is Britain, the UK, is the fifth largest economy and we are capable | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
of standing on our own two feet if we leave the EU. | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
APPLAUSE If we leave the EU, it does not mean we will not be trading with | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
Europe. We will continue to trade. What business has to be in a | :16:33. | :16:39. | |
political union to trade? Since time began, it actually is supply and | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
demand. And yes, obviously there needs to be legislation. You need to | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
protect workers' rights etcetera, I know somebody touched on the facted | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
that they wouldn't trust a Conservative Government to look | :16:53. | :16:54. | |
after workers' rights. Well, let me tell you something. I want to | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
Pontefract Girls' High School, the same school as Barbara Castle. We | :17:04. | :17:11. | |
are capable in this country... We haven't got a constitution? No, she | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
was putting it into the format. Where you vote, on the actual | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
legislation, in Parliament, she was putting it there to be voted on and | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
she put pieces of work in there. If you can remember Made In Dagenham, | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
it was the pioneering start of putting female workers' rights on | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
the map. We are capable of actually looking after our own workers. All | :17:40. | :17:51. | |
right. Let's hear from Lorraine. You are from the Liberal Democrats, what | :17:52. | :17:54. | |
would you say? The point about being in the EU is that there is a minimum | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
standard for employers rights across the whole of the European Union and | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
that means if the Government changes in this country, they can't get rid | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
of them and that, for me, is absolutely vital and I'll tell you | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
why because in the last Coalition Government, the Conservatives tried | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
to get rid of employment rights through something called the Be | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
Croft Report, but they stopped them and they might try again and | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
certainly some of the politicians on the outside used to talk about that | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
and they suddenly stopped. I wonder why? Because employment rights are | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
vital and the EU protects them. APPLAUSE | :18:35. | :18:36. | |
Good morning, hello. Good morning. Hi, good morning. My name is | :18:37. | :18:45. | |
Cynthia. I'm doing media psychology. I'm from a Commonwealth country so I | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
can vote in the coming referendum. However, I am undecided. I feel like | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
both sides of the argument are talking about the same things in | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
different ways, but the bottom line is they are scaremongering. Now, as | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
an international student, there is 300,000 of us in the UK are that's a | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
huge chunk to get on either side of the debate, no side is addressing | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
the things that affect us as international students. Today, eel' | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
hoping to hear something tangible that addresses the issues that | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
international students have in this country. What's the top issue for | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
you? Which country are you from? I'm Nigerian. What's the top issue for a | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
Nigerian student in Britain? The top issue would be, the UK makes it | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
quite easy for us to come here to study, we pay tonnes of money and | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
once we are in here, make it extremely difficult on every level | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
for us to remain here and study. Remain to study. If I'm | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
unfortunately ill at some point and I cannot hand in an assignment and I | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
get extension to do that assignment, the minute my visa expires I'm | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
expected to leave then pay another fresh amount of money to get back in | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
here. It makes it just difficult to be here. So how much easier would it | :19:59. | :20:05. | |
be to just be here and study if the UK leaves or remains? I'm going to | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
come back to that and I promise we will. This bit of the programme is | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
about the economy and I appreciate the point that international | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
students contribute to the British economy. Exactly. Hello. Hi. My name | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
is David. I'm in the construction industry for the last 38 years. Hi | :20:22. | :20:29. | |
David. I'm voting to leave. I think the EU has outgrown its initial | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
concept that was way, way back when it started and I think the model | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
they've got at the moment is just not workable and I don't see them | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
changing. Europe is very, very slow to change. Everything is done by 28 | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
nations, it is a committee, Government by committee which what | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
you end up with is a watered down version of everything that goes | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
forward. And I think people have mentioned about workers' rights and | :20:54. | :20:57. | |
Glen mentioned about under cutting of British workers. The only way | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
Europe could work for me is if there was parity across the whole of | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
Europe in terms of wages, health, education, and NHS. We have got a | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
minimum wage in this country as you know. Is the under cutting of | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
British workers to do with the EU or bosses? I think... Hang on. Hang on. | :21:17. | :21:26. | |
Let him finish. I think it is both really. The EU could force it had | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
they had a mind to. The bosses take advantage of it and the workers | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
follow the money. I started out as a brick layer. I would follow the | :21:36. | :21:38. | |
money. They're only doing the same thing. It is human nature. If it is | :21:39. | :21:44. | |
a low wage in Romania and it is a high wage in the UK, they're going | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
to come. The leave vote for you David is to reduce immigration, | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
that's the bottom line, is it? No. No, I don't have a problem with | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
people coming to the country. Right. What I have a problem with is the | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
numbers that's coming and the reasons they're coming. It could be | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
avoided. If the EU said when member states join the EU there is a | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
minimum wage, people wouldn't come for the money. They would come for | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
other reasons. In terms of the Leave campaigners, do you think they've | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
said something to you which would control the numbers of economic | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
migrants? No, they haven't. I have been disappointed by the campaigns | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
on both sides. Particularly the Leave because I think they could | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
have put a better performance to the public to get them to vote for | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
leaving. I think they've let us down. That's interesting. David says | :22:32. | :22:35. | |
his own campaigners have let him down. Hi, good morning. I'm Craig, a | :22:36. | :22:40. | |
carer and a writer from Luton and I studied the history of the European | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
Union at university. Oh my gosh! You poor thing! No, I love Europe and | :22:46. | :22:53. | |
what I'm worried about is this xenophobic group over here. Why do | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
you say they're xenophobic? They're going to take away our British | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
rights to have visa-free travel, to study in Europe. Craig, can I just | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
ask you, hang on a minute, why do you say if they are voting to leave | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
that they are xenophobic? The thing is their fear of immigration coming | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
into our country, they're not realising... Let him finish. They're | :23:17. | :23:23. | |
taking away the freedom of us to study, work, set-up businesses in | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
the whole of Europe. We are Europeans and world citizens. The | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
whole of Europe is a home to work in the whole of Europe. Right, are you | :23:33. | :23:39. | |
xenophobic, is that why you're choosing to leave? I resent the | :23:40. | :23:43. | |
accusation that voting for leave is xenophobic. It is unfair and | :23:44. | :23:50. | |
unjustified. APPLAUSE My parents came to this | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
country as immigrants with nothing and they worked and contributed to | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
the economy. Everything I have, I have because of immigration. I'm not | :24:02. | :24:04. | |
anti-immigration. I'm in favour of it. What I am against is | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
uncontrolled, mass immigration. And as long as... | :24:09. | :24:18. | |
APPLAUSE As long as we are a member of the European Union, we will be | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
unable to have an honest and open discussion in Britain about | :24:25. | :24:26. | |
immigration and we will not be able to control the numbers of people | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
coming into the EU. I also, before I was an MP, I was a lawyer. | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
Specialising in immigration law. We currently have a perverse and | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
discriminatory immigration system whereby if you're from outside the | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
EU, you are subject to a points-based system and you are at | :24:45. | :24:47. | |
the back of the queue compared to a low-skilled EU migrant with no job | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
offer to this country. How is that fair? | :24:51. | :25:00. | |
APPLAUSE Go on, Craig. So you're telling me | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
that the Polish businesses in Luton, the del la ka at thessan and the | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
Romanian restaurants, they will have to go back to their home country? | :25:10. | :25:17. | |
They can live the UK dream like people that live the American dream. | :25:18. | :25:24. | |
The European Union needs to expand out to create international | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
citizenship. The trend in history isn't to form smaller and smaller | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
national groupings. OK. On the point about immigration from outside of | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
the EU, where we have a points system. We apparently can control | :25:39. | :25:44. | |
immigration from outside the EU as a result of that points system. Why is | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
immigration from outside the EU higher than immigration from inside? | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
Well, it is about control and at the moment... Why is it higher? Our | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
voters can discuss and debate what skills are needed. How people can | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
come to this country from other countries. And people have to fulfil | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
particular criteria. They have to speak the language. They have to | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
have sufficient funds and they have to establish that they satisfy | :26:14. | :26:16. | |
particular points. My question is why is it higher? Well, we have a | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
lot of pull factors in this country. The Living Wage... Hang on. Hang on! | :26:22. | :26:29. | |
I'm talking about immigration from outside the EU where we can judge if | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
they have got enough points and if they reach tier one, tier two, tier | :26:34. | :26:39. | |
three or tier four. Why is it higher? Well, we have managed to | :26:40. | :26:42. | |
control immigration from non-EU countries. It is the EU countries | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
where we have no control and the numbers are rising. That's | :26:47. | :26:49. | |
unsustainable and it places considerable pressure on the public | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
services. Can I ask the Remain side here? If Britain votes to remain in | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
the European Union, how will Britain control the numbers wanting to come? | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
In? Hang on. Hang on. The numbers | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
actually control themselves because what happens is... Not according to | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
people on the Leave side. If you look at the amount of time that the | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
gentleman was talking about, the Polish shops in Luton and a lot of | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
people come here and work for two or three or five years and then return | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
home. What is really important about the people who come to work from the | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
EU in this country is they contribute in taxes ?20 billion more | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
than they take out of the country. My question was how will Britain | :27:35. | :27:38. | |
control immigration if we vote to stay in the EU? Well, the way we're | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
controlling it now actually. I'm a woman. I'm an immigrantment I'm a | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
small business ownerment when we look at how immigration is | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
controlled now, our borders are at Calais, they are not at Dover and | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
that's because we are in the EU. Leaving the EU brings the borders | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
back to Dover for us to have to manage this process. This is why you | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
never actually answer the question that immigration from outside the EU | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
is so much higher despite us clamping down on it. It is not so | :28:09. | :28:11. | |
much higher. But it is higher. You have got to be an EU member and got | :28:12. | :28:16. | |
to have been within the EU. It takes eight years to get that status in | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
Germany and five years in Italy. You could be honest with people and say | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
to those who are concerned about the levels of immigration and tell them | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
that the only way to control it is to leave the European Union? Well, I | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
don't actually agree with that at all. What happens is we are talking | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
about economic growth and it has become scaremongering about I will | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
gration instead. We joined this. Free movement won't stop even | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
because we leave the European Union. Norway still has to allow free | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
movement of people and it is not part of the EU. Hello. Good morning. | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
APPLAUSE Good morning, Victoria. May I start | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
by saying my point is about immigration and I want to agree with | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
the gentleman on the Remain side. I have to say, standing here listening | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
over the past few weeks to the things I have heard have saddened | :29:17. | :29:20. | |
me. As a British born Muslim, the reason why I want to leave Europe | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
because I work as a Muslim chaplain and I study law and I'm training to | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
be a barrister. The nuances of sovereignty and politics are very | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
important to me as a British born Muslim. However, I have to say, I | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
have been appalled by the tactics used on this side to scare people | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
about immigration. APPLAUSE | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
The truth is what they do is, we have to take a Tory MP say a | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
sensible debate. The truth is, the sad truth is, most people talk about | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
immigration are rayest and I'm not saying that people over here are, | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
can I finish? Let me finish. I think he is in the wrong chair. The rise | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
of right-wing anti-Islam in Europe is a disgrace. The truth is, we are | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
hearing scare tactics. People are going to talk to you about the NHS | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
and housing crisis, that's not about immigration. That's a failure of | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
Government in this country to build houses and to, you know, you should | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
be scared, because I was in reality recently. I have been diagnosed with | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
an illness and the people that work in hospitals are people who are | :30:27. | :30:29. | |
immigrants. The NHS would collapse without immigration. | :30:30. | :30:39. | |
When you hear... Hang on. Hang on. When you hear Ukip's Nigel Farage... | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
Disgusting. Suggesting yesterday that women in this country might | :30:47. | :30:52. | |
potentially be at risk with a vote to remain from Cologne-style sex | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
attacks, what do you think? It scares me. It makes me think that | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
the people I'm working with every day, young Muslims, what country are | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
they going to be living in. The Ukip member here should apologise for the | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
statement of her leader. Why are you voting leave? I want to make it | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
clear... Let him speak. Let him speak. I want to make it clear to | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
people watching today that there is truth on both sides and the truth is | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
I want to leave because of legal sovereignty argument. My argument is | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
about sovereignty, not immigration. Everyone who votes to leave are not | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
racist, but there are a lot of people who are. | :31:30. | :31:44. | |
There are people over here asking you to come over. That is what they | :31:45. | :31:54. | |
want, they would like to leave. The reason I want to remain are reason | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
about law. Elected MEPs are not elected. They would probably like me | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
to leave this country. Show some respect. I want to say thank you, | :32:08. | :32:14. | |
but let's talk about the real issues. Immigration has been used | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
time and time again to cover over other issues we need to talk about. | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
Austerity and the problems in England today are not due to | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
immigration. Jane Collins, you are a UK MEP, what did you think about | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
Nigel Farage's comments? They were a reflection on what happened in | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
Cologne. Could it happen here? Do you think it is right? That sort of | :32:43. | :32:50. | |
behaviour happened in Cologne, if it happened in Cologne, it can happen | :32:51. | :32:59. | |
anywhere. Can I speak, please? OK. It was there, it happen, you cannot | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
deny that, so there is a problem that has to be addressed. His | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
comments I do not think were scaremongering, he was just saying | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
it has happened in Cologne, it can happen here. We are getting confused | :33:14. | :33:20. | |
between the difference between controlling immigration and | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
controlling migration. We can control immigration. Lots of people | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
come to this country. We are one of the biggest countries for investment | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
in the whole world, which is why we could be independent because people | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
invest in our country. Migration is different. It is uncontrolled | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
movement, not just of workers, but of people. If Britain voted to | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
leave, how would you be able to control that? Because we could | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
control our own borders, for migration, not immigration. European | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
citizens with a European passport, what would happen when they reached | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
Britain? We were to have stronger control. How? They have a European | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
passport, so they would be able to come to Britain. All countries have | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
border checks. We would want to know who was coming in and out of the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
country, especially nowadays because we have a problem. We have a | :34:25. | :34:32. | |
security problem. What with the difference be if Britain voted to | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
leave? Because we would take back control of our own borders. How? By | :34:37. | :34:44. | |
border checks. We have border checks now. Border checks, you could look | :34:45. | :34:52. | |
and see who was coming in and out of the country, if they had a criminal | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
record. Hello, I used to teach ethnic minority children, refugees | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
and asylum seekers. The problem of immigration has been playing on our | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
minds since after the Second World War. Can I draw our attention back | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
to history? Britain is the fifth biggest economy? How did we become | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
the fifth biggest economy? Consider the contribution of the countries | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
that we were aligned with in the past. | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
APPLAUSE . | :35:31. | :35:40. | |
Let me finish. We are now fifth? If you want to become the first country | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
in the world, think about how we created the wealth. Also I would | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
like to point out that we became fifth because of the contribution of | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
other countries. Now we want to cooperate with the European | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
countries. When the people from other countries came here, we did | :36:00. | :36:06. | |
not like it. They contributed to the economy of this country, they | :36:07. | :36:11. | |
settled. Now our attention has turned to European countries. Who | :36:12. | :36:16. | |
will be next? Let me read comments from people watching. We have got | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
plenty more time to talk. Do not worry if I have not come to you yet. | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
Julie on Twitter says, when my grandchildren vote, I want to know | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
they have the power to change things through our own parliament and | :36:30. | :36:37. | |
democracy. Julie Willis says, your audience member Mohammed was | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
speaking the plain truth better than anyone else I have seen on TV. | :36:41. | :36:47. | |
Matthew on twitter says, how dare that man called the group of lead | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
people xenophobic, that is disgusting, shame on you. And Max in | :36:53. | :37:02. | |
the north east of England says this is proving to me that the Leave | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
Campaign have no real plan, these people do not even know what they | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
are saying. So, much more to come on all the subjects that our audience | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
want to talk about. We started with the economy and jobs and we soon got | :37:19. | :37:25. | |
onto immigration, but first he is a summary of the news. | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean | :37:32. | :37:34. | |
Britain has to pay billions of pounds more towards | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
The Remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
would have a veto on any proposed budget increase. | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
Both sides have been setting out their arguments on this programme. | :37:45. | :37:53. | |
The UK is the fifth largest economy and we are capable of standing on | :37:54. | :38:02. | |
our own two feat if we leave the EU. Employment rights are vital and the | :38:03. | :38:03. | |
EU protect them. Scientists in the United States have | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
begun using a controversial technique to create human organs, | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
by growing them inside pigs. Critics have expressed ethical | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
concerns about the project, by a research team at the University | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
of California, which involves injecting human stem cells | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
into pig embryos. The aim is to produce a pancreas | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
suitable for a human transplant. The body of Muhammad Ali has | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
arrived in his hometown The boxing legend | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
died at the weekend. His family accompanied the coffin | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
as it was driven in a convoy His funeral will take place | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
there on Friday, when former US President Bill Clinton | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
will deliver a eulogy. At least three people have been | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
killed and nine injured in a crash involving two trains in eastern | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
Belgium. Some of the injured | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
are critically hurt. The accident happened when a high | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
speed passenger service crashed into the back of a goods train | :39:03. | :39:03. | |
near the city of Liege An eyewitness said two carriages had | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
been completely destroyed. A new study suggests that women | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
who've had breast cancer could benefit from staying | :39:15. | :39:16. | |
on hormone blocking drugs That's more than double the number | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
of years they're The US study found that long term | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
use of the drugs could cut the risk However there are also warnings | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
about the drugs' side effects. That's a summary of | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
the latest BBC News. Good morning. Andy Murray's first | :39:38. | :39:51. | |
French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten in four sets by Novak | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
Djokovic, who claimed his fourth title in Paris and he becomes only | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
the eighth player in the open era to win all four grand slams since Rod | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
Labour in 1969 and to hold them all at the same time. Wales were beaten | :40:09. | :40:15. | |
3-0 in Sweden. Their first game is against Slovakia on Saturday. Jamie | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
Vardy is expected to decide whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester | :40:21. | :40:25. | |
City later today. The decision is expected to be made sometime before | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
he flies out with the England squad to France. Mo Farah broke the | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
British 3000 metres record at the Diamond league meeting in | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
Birmingham. He recorded a time of 7.32.6 seconds to break David | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
Moorcroft's long-standing record by a 10th of a second. That is all the | :40:45. | :40:52. | |
Hello, welcome to Manchester with an audience of voters | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
We have a heated half an hour, but in two weeks' time you will be able | :40:59. | :41:23. | |
to make your thoughts known. People here say they feel the weight of | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
that responsibility on whether or not Britain remains or stays in the | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
European Union. The deadline to register to vote is tomorrow. | :41:33. | :41:41. | |
For many of you the most important factor is the impact on the economy. | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
Here is Norman Smith on the impact weather leaving remaining could have | :41:46. | :42:04. | |
on the money in your pocket. The UK does around half its trade with the | :42:05. | :42:05. | |
EU. Still with us for Leave, | :42:06. | :43:16. | |
Suella Fernandes, a Conservative MP, They want the UK to leave | :43:17. | :43:26. | |
the European Union. And for Remain, Sal Brinton, | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
President of the Liberal Democrats, and Geeta Sidhu-Robb, | :43:31. | :43:32. | |
who's a business leader and member of the "women in" campaign - | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
they want the UK to stay Hello, introduce yourself. Hello, my | :43:36. | :43:50. | |
name is Paul and I am a sound engineer. I spent about 20-30% of my | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
time working in Europe. At this time there will be a good few thousand | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
British crew working in Europe. In our industry Britain completely | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
dominates Europe and the reason we dominate is because we move freely | :44:09. | :44:15. | |
between borders. If large, American acts and artists are touring Europe, | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
they come to UK companies. Our industry is about three times the | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
size of Germany's. Would that stop if Britain was not a member of the | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
EU? Yes, it would. If I travel Visa free, we do not pay, if I did not | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
have a visa, somebody would have to pay for those. We travel in a convoy | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
of 15 trucks with thousands of pieces of equipment and we have to | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
list every single piece of equipment that goes through a non-EU border | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
and that would cost time and resources. The jobs we do are well | :44:53. | :45:01. | |
paid and highly skilled, a replacement for engineering jobs if | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
you like. My question is what jobs will replace these jobs? The | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
entertainment industry is a huge part of our economy. Are you saying | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
you fear for your job? I certainly fear for the amount of work I have. | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
Before I came on this programme I spoke to the people who ran the two | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
largest rental companies in the UK and they are all terrified. My point | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
to the man over there, when you said this is not about business, this is | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
about people. People All the people I employ, they are | :45:38. | :45:45. | |
people. The people I work with in my company, they are people. And they | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
are affected by what happens to our business. | :45:50. | :45:56. | |
Geta, you run your own company. Do you echo what... I really echo that. | :45:57. | :46:03. | |
Not only do I employ people across Europe, but across my business. But | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
you would still be able to employ people from Europe? Nobody pays me. | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
Every day I wake up and I have to make money to pay for everyone that | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
works por me and my children, the way I make that money is I go to a | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
market. If you reduce my market, how is that not going to hurt my | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
business? Because of taxes, it is paying the taxes of going abroad. It | :46:29. | :46:32. | |
is paying the levies and the fines or the products that I have coming | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
in. Every time you guys talk about briefing Brexit, the pound drops. | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
That means everything I do costs more. Every time. Hang on. Hang on. | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
Don't shout. Don't shout. Finish the sentence and then I will be with | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
you. That's part of the problem. Every time somebody talks about | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
Brexit, the pound drops. Everything I buy from Europe costs me more now. | :46:56. | :47:03. | |
It is good for exporters you have got to admit. Good morning. I'm Paul | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
Austin. I am a small and medium business owner as well and I'm from | :47:09. | :47:15. | |
Manchester and I live up in the Redcar Cleveland. I employ people | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
from Poland and Lithuania. Our friend talking about his concert | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
company, we're the best in the world. That's why you're employed to | :47:24. | :47:27. | |
be doing that. You do a great job, trust me, you will be OK on that. | :47:28. | :47:30. | |
Don't worry about that. But getting back to the economy, if we look at | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
immigration problem, and go back to the guy talking about housing, on | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
the economy, we have a million empty unrefurbished home in this country | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
right now. If we removed VAT, from the repairs and the remedial works, | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
this would create nearly ?50 billion worth of work. The British | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
Government could do that. They do nothing about the VAT. David you | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
said to, I'm sorry, I've forgotten your name. Paul. You said you are | :47:59. | :48:05. | |
the best in the world at what we do, if we leave, you will be OK. You | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
will get paid. Rolls-Royce is the best. I have got no concern about | :48:11. | :48:19. | |
that at all. Paul, go ahead. One second. With all due respect, mate, | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
you don't know what you're talking about. I have been in business for | :48:25. | :48:34. | |
35 years. Let me finish my argument as to why. I am allowed to make... | :48:35. | :48:40. | |
Don't make an argument about what I'm talking about. I understand what | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
you are saying. It is not about being the best, it is about being, | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
it is also about being the most efficient and financial EU efficient | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
and if you put visas and borders in people's way. You believe that's | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
going to happen. It is not going to happen. Trucks going into Europe | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
will be stopped and tipped and emptied. Thank you, David. You are a | :49:06. | :49:14. | |
Conservative MP. Michael Gove from the Leave side said last week he | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
can't guarantee that people currently in jobs will keep those | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
jobs in the event of a leave vote. How many jobs will be lost if | :49:24. | :49:26. | |
Britain votes to leave? I think we've got to look at the opportunity | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
for increased trade. I'm asking you, I'm going to stop you right there. | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
I'm not going to give predictions about jobs. It is so crucial. It is | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
crystal ball gazing. Hang on a minute. I'm going to pause you | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
there. Do you agree with Michael Gove that people currently in work | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
will not be guaranteed work if Britain votes to leave? I'm not | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
going to make any predictions. I'm not asking you to predict. I'm | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
asking if you you agree... No. I don't think it is about predicting. | :49:58. | :50:01. | |
I think it is about looking at the facts... Why, what would you say to | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
someone, what would you say to someone who might lose their job in | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
the event of a vote to leave? What would you say to them now? Look at | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
the European Union. Look at countries like Greece and Spain and | :50:14. | :50:18. | |
Italy where 50% of young people are unemployed. Do we want to continue | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
our membership with a failing economic agenda? No, let's get out | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
while we can. You can't guarantee that people will continue in work in | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
the event of a vote to leave? What I can say is that if we continue to | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
stay in the European Union, we will continue to be bailing out failing | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
economies and failing euros. We will be continuing to be part of a | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
restrictive trade membership. We have already lost the steel | :50:47. | :50:49. | |
industry and we've lost the coal industry. We have lost loads of | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
manufacturing and heavy industry and fishing. Hello, hi. This is what I | :50:55. | :51:02. | |
was saying so I am at risk of losing my job if we leave the EU because | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
third sector is highly funded by the EU. So I'm at risk of losing my job, | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
but also I help the most vulnerable of society. I help the homeless, the | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
drug users, the alcoholics, the young people and we are at the | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
bottom of our society and are getting tread on deeper and deeper | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
to where they are not going to be helped. So if we leave somebody | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
answer this, are the Government going to fund and match fund what | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
the EU gives to the third sector to help the most vulnerable? | :51:40. | :51:49. | |
Britain currently pays a net amount of ?10 billion a year to the | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
European Union... It is ?8.5 billion the last set of figures. We are the | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
net contributor. If we leave the EU, that money will be able to be | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
diverted to British services and to youth services and to charitable | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
sector and to our hospitals and our schools without going through the | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
EU. To me, that makes a lot of sense. You can control, you can | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
choose and if your politicians don't make the decisions that you want, | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
you can get rid of them. At moment, you can't. | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
APPLAUSE Does that reassure you? No, not at | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
all, being honest. Adult services, adult skills, basic skills for the | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
basic entry levels one and two, of English and maths which primary | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
school age, the Government have cut that funding. Why have we got | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
24-year-old adults plus who cannot do the basic reading and writing? | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
And then the Government have cut that funding. You are on the Remain | :52:53. | :52:58. | |
side. Do you buy the Bank of England, the Treasury's forecast for | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
recession, job losses, interest rates going up and so on and so | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
forth? I think we have just heard from Paul why we might move into | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
recession because if you have to have extra costs, if tariffs are put | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
on us trading with Europe, and I know the Remain side say it won't | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
happen, but the evidence of Switzerland is there are tariffs | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
then profitability goes down and when that happens, jobs get lost and | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
when that happens, there is less tax revenue coming into Government to be | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
able to fund the NHS and the social care and the voluntary sector. | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
That's it the fundamental problem. How many job losses will there be if | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
Britain votes to remain in the European Union? I am not aware that | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
there will be any. Why would there be? It is status quo? Relating to | :53:48. | :53:55. | |
Europe. Relating to Europe. As you heard from this side, you can see | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
the unemployment rates in places like Spain and Greece and Italy. | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
Youth unemployment... Our economies are totally different. Our economy | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
has been growing so quickly and we have created more work, we have made | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
more money and the pound is stronger. We export 50% of our | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
exports go to the EU. So we have become a better economy while we | :54:20. | :54:22. | |
have been in Europe, not that lef had to leave it do to it. There | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
issen certainty because of the stagnation when it comes to growth | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
in the euro area, the high levels of unemployment and the migrant crisis | :54:32. | :54:36. | |
unfolding for a second year? Have you seen floods of refugees coming | :54:37. | :54:39. | |
in here? I'm talking about uncertainty which can affect the | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
economy? The uncertainty that comes from the Leave campaign is much, | :54:44. | :54:46. | |
much I'm asking about higher. The Remain side. No, I think we're | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
Rennesesing. We have got a good agreement that protects us and I | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
think our trade actually continues to support our economy and makes us | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
a stronger country. OK. I'm Marcus and I'm from Sheffield and I have | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
finished my degree in biology. I have got a teaching job over in | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
Germany next year, a lot of my friends and course mates struggled | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
to find a graduate job. What can the Leave and Remain side offer to | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
people coming out to university or just about to start an | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
apprenticeship. Jane Collins, Ukip MEP? What we have got to do is if we | :55:23. | :55:28. | |
leave and I hope we do, is we have to then look to our Government and | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
say, "Right, you are going to invest in our young people. You are now | :55:35. | :55:41. | |
going to... " Let her finish. We are going to say, "We will now put the | :55:42. | :55:48. | |
money into training nurses." Like you've gone through your education, | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
it will be investing in our own country, investing in people like | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
yourself who has gone through an education, who is very valuable to | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
us so we don't lose you and you go abroad. We have got to invest in our | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
youth. Can they not do that now as members of the EU? Well, we don't | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
really have the money do we? Because if you look... They could reduce the | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
foreign aid budget which Ukip would like them to do? Yeah, we would. The | :56:16. | :56:24. | |
figures, it is simple. ?8.5 billion net, yes, a year, just going to the | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
national health which is in ?2.5 billion debt. Add the figures up. If | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
we weren't paying that money in, we could do an awful lot more, not just | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
for education, but for national health and for our social services. | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
That means farmers, so physical that happened, if that ?8.5 billion wept | :56:44. | :56:46. | |
to the NHS that would mean farmers who get more than 50% of the their | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
income from the EU would be decimated. | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
APPLAUSE No. No. No. No. No. I have been in | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
farming all my life. How would they not be decimated? The Common | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
Agricultural Policy was in place before the ECC actually... I'm | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
talking about the fact that 50% of British farmers income come from the | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
European Unionment you said the contribution that Britain makes to | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
the EU, we could put that ?8.5 billion net into the NHS. That's the | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
net. That's the net. Our farmers would still receive, would still | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
receive subsidies, but what we would do... ?2.5 billion in subsidies. ?6 | :57:26. | :57:34. | |
billion net. You want to answer our students... I want to answer the | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
students question. There was a crisis for students after the last | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
banking recession. We are coming out of that and graduate jobs are | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
increasing. They need to increase more. The best way for them to | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
increase is to have a solid economy and being in Europe has demonstrated | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
that. When people talk about money coming out and us not getting money, | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
we pay ?5 billion a year in to the universities and research fundful we | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
get ?8 billion back. Why? Because we are so good and European | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
universities want to work with us, we are a powerhouse of research. We | :58:12. | :58:19. | |
mustn't lose that. Hi. My name is a student. I'm a | :58:20. | :58:25. | |
student and I'm from Warrington. I know this Tory Government doesn't | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
care about young people. APPLAUSE | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
We are one of the strongest economies in Europe. A Europe that | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
we trade nearly half of our exports to, a Europe that nearly three | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
million jobs are linked with through trade, jobs have maternity law and | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
protection for agency workers. If we leave, not only would that be at | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
risk plus more, it would be subject to negotiation. My question for the | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
Leave side is, based on the existing models, what relationship with the | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
EU do you hope to have post Brexit because why do you want to relegate | :59:01. | :59:08. | |
Britain to a Norwegian model or a Canadian model? When we have a | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
British model that works. We have got a British model that works. We | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
are outside of Europe. We are outside of Schengen. The EU works | :59:16. | :59:28. | |
part of the EU and many of which are doing much better than the EU. We | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
have no trade deal. We will have a British model building trade and | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
connections, trading with Commonwealth countries where we | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
share history and where we can have equal opportunities. We can do that | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
as well as being in the EU. The Conservative Government, they are | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
just not working they are not doing it for the steel and they are not | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
doing it for us. I'm going to read some comments. "The remain side | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
needs more of these Ukip folks on the broadcast media. It enables the | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
truth and unpleasantness of Brexit to emerge." Pete has e-mailed to | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
say, "I always thought I lived in a tolerant society, but I have to say | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
I'm sad to see speakers of either side of the debate being shouted | :00:17. | :00:27. | |
down rather than a serious debate. " Andy says, "It seems whatever one | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
side says on an issue, the other side knock it. It is not going to | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
get anything sorted! " He might be spot on there. Thank you very much | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
to our contributors. We will be joined by a Labour MP, Yvette Cooper | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
for Remain and Emma who is a Conservative MEP. | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
this is not about business, this is about people. People | :00:59. | :01:22. | |
hopefully things will brighten up a little bit across the Channel | :01:23. | :01:30. | |
Islands later on. A lot of sunshine to come elsewhere as we go on | :01:31. | :01:34. | |
through the day. Out West that sunshine and that warmth will | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
develop some showers and quite heavy and thundery ones. The best of the | :01:38. | :01:47. | |
brightness, maybe 28 degrees, but a bit cooler for the North Sea coasts. | :01:48. | :01:53. | |
Overnight some of the showers will continue, particularly in western | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
parts. It will be a muggy night for most of us. | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
Hello, good morning, welcome to Manchester where we're | :02:03. | :02:04. | |
debating whether we'll be better off if the UK leaves or remains | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
We're joined by an audience of 145 people who all want to know how | :02:08. | :02:20. | |
a decision to stay in or leave the European Union will affect them. | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
Voters here have been telling us they feel it's | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
What about the British people? What about the low skilled people that | :02:31. | :02:43. | |
are not being protected? What about people who have not got academic | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
backgrounds, who are not innovators, who cannot move? This country has | :02:48. | :02:53. | |
not protected their workers since the 80s, not once, and it is only | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
because of Europe that we have any kind of protection. And passionate | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
views on immigration from both the league and remain sides. I love | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
Europe and what I am worried about is this xenophobic group over here. | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
Why do you say they are xenophobic? They will take away our British | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
rights to have these free travel, to study in Europe. I totally resent | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
the accusation that voting for leave is xenophobic. It is unfair and | :03:28. | :03:35. | |
unjustified. But so many people are saying they cannot decide between | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
project fear and project lead. I have been appalled by the tactics | :03:41. | :03:45. | |
used on this side to scare people about immigration. The truth is we | :03:46. | :03:56. | |
have heard a Tory MP say a sensible debate, but the sad truth is most | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
people who talk about immigration are racist. And the debate continues | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
And the debate continues this morning. | :04:04. | :04:06. | |
And, as you'd expect, throughout the programme | :04:07. | :04:08. | |
we want to hear from you, do get in touch in the usual ways. | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
You can E-mail us at [email protected]. | :04:12. | :04:12. | |
On Facebook search Victoria Derbyshire. | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Texts will be charged at the standard network rate. | :04:17. | :04:33. | |
Over the next hour we'll discuss the campaign itself and if a lot | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
of the scaremongering and negativity is putting you off, plus we'll talk | :04:38. | :04:47. | |
about security and we'll ask our 50 undecideds | :04:48. | :04:49. | |
here if they're any closer to making up their mind | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
First Rebecca Jones has a summary of the news. | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
Leading Brexit campaigners have claimed a vote to remain could mean | :04:57. | :04:58. | |
Britain has to pay billions of pounds more | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
The remain campaign says the figures are nonsense and claims the UK | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
would have a veto on any proposed budget increase. | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
Business owners have been giving us their views in a live discussion | :05:14. | :05:21. | |
from Manchester. People are business, small businesses are | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
people. People employed and they are people and they are affected by what | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
happens to our business. I employ people from Poland and Lithuania and | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
I paid them every morning. Our friend was talking about his concept | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
company, with the best in the world, and that is why you are employed to | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
be doing that. You have a great job, trust me, you will be OK on that. | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
Scientists in the United States have begun using a controversial | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
technique to create human organs, by growing them inside pigs. | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
Critics have expressed ethical concerns about the project, | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
by a research team at the University of California, which involves | :06:01. | :06:02. | |
injecting human stem cells into pig embryos. | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
The aim is to produce a pancreas suitable for a human transplant. | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
Our hope is that this pig embryo will develop normally, | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
but the pancreas will be made almost exclusively out of human | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
cells so that then, that pancreas can be compatible | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
The body of Muhammad Ali has arrived in his hometown | :06:21. | :06:30. | |
The boxing legend died at the weekend. | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
His family accompanied the coffin as it was driven in a convoy | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
His funeral will take place there on Friday, when former US | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
President Bill Clinton will deliver a eulogy. | :06:45. | :06:46. | |
At least three people have been killed and nine injured in a crash | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
involving two trains in eastern Belgium. | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
Some of the injured are critically hurt. | :06:53. | :06:54. | |
The accident happened when a high speed passenger service crashed | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
into the back of a goods train near the city of Liege | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
An eyewitness said two carriages had been completely destroyed. | :07:00. | :07:07. | |
A new study suggests that women who've had breast cancer | :07:08. | :07:09. | |
could benefit from staying on hormone blocking drugs | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
That's more than double the number of years they're | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
The US study found that long term use of the drugs could cut the risk | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
However, there are also warnings about the drugs' side effects. | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
It's all about balancing the risks and benefits. | :07:31. | :07:32. | |
There was an increased risk of bone fractures in the study, | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
so it's most likely appropriate for those women at highest | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
Three people have died along the east coast of Australia | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
Hundreds of homes were evacuated in New South Wales, Queensland | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
More than twenty flood warnings are in place. | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
In Sydney, beach front homes have been partly washed away | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
by an unusually high tide and big waves. | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
An award-winning American photo-journalist and his Afghan | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
translator have been killed in a Taliban ambush | :08:06. | :08:08. | |
David Gilkey, who was 50, worked for National Public Radio in the US. | :08:09. | :08:15. | |
They died when the army convoy they were travelling | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
That's a summary of the latest BBC News. | :08:18. | :08:24. | |
More at 10.30am. Now the sport. | :08:25. | :08:30. | |
Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten | :08:31. | :08:39. | |
in four sets by Novak Djokovic, who claimed his first title in Paris. He | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
becomes only the eighth player in the open era to win all four grand | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
slams and the first since Rod Labour in 1969 to hold them all at the same | :08:50. | :08:56. | |
time. Wales were beaten 3-0 in Sweden. Their first game at the | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
championship is against Slovakia on Saturday. Jamie Vardy is expected to | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
decide whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester City later on this | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
morning. The decision is expected to be made before he flies out to | :09:10. | :09:14. | |
France with the England squad. Mo Farah broke the British 3000 metres | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
record at the Diamond league meeting in Birmingham. He recorded a time of | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
seven point 32.6 seconds to break David Moorcroft's long-standing | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
record by a 10th of a second. That is all for now. | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
Good morning and welcome to the programme. | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
In just over two weeks' time, Britain, you, will go to the polls | :09:39. | :09:41. | |
to decide the future of the United Kingdom | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
and whether it remains or leaves the European Union. | :09:44. | :09:45. | |
We're live in Manchester with an audience of 145 voters. | :09:46. | :10:01. | |
I was going to say 150, but somewhere along the way we have lost | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
five people. We've | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
now been joined by Yvette Cooper, Labour MP who wants Britain | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
to remain in the EU, and Emma McClarkin, Conservative MEP | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
who wants Britain to leave the EU. Sal Brinton from Remain | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
is still with us as is Jane Collins, Hitler, global recession, | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
uncontrolled immigration, thousands of job losses, | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
even a risk to peace in our time, pretty much every scare tactic has | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
been used when it comes to trying to persuade us how to | :10:37. | :10:39. | |
vote in the referendum. Former conservative | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
Prime Minister John Major campaign of being deceitful | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
and squalid, whilst those who want the UK to get out | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
of the European Union say the Remain Let's spend the next few minutes | :10:53. | :11:06. | |
talking about the campaign and what you have thought about it so far. | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
This is our undecided section. I am Suzanne and a manager with a large | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
corporate insurer. I am frustrated with the whole thing. Politicians on | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
both sides are behaving like children in the playground, slinging | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
things at each other. I do not know how to make a decision and it is an | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
important decision about our futures. At this point we are not | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
getting any information, we are just getting scaremongering and | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
outrageous statements that they cannot back up. This has never | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
happened before, so it is pretty much all guesswork, but they will | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
not admit that. How do they know? It would be more helpful if people said | :11:51. | :11:56. | |
I think this is going to happen, I don't know, but I think this might | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
happen. If there was some honesty from politicians, if they would say, | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
we cannot give you a guarantee, but this may happen, this is a good | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
probability that it will happen. Instead we are getting outrageous | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
statements. In the next two weeks, what is it that will help you make | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
up your mind? Just some honesty. I want one of these politicians to be | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
honest about their opinion. At the moment you cannot trust what they | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
are saying because you know at the back of it they are out for | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
themselves as well and you want some honest, straightforward facts. You | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
may not get that in the next couple of weeks, so what will you do? That | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
is what conflicts me. I want to vote because it is an important decision, | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
but at the moment there is not anything out there for me to base my | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
decision on. If you get to do on the 23rd and you still have not had that | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
information you are desperate for, will you go with your head, heart, | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
what? I am so conflicted at the moment that I do not even know. Part | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
of me says go with lead and give that a chance because all I have | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
ever known in my life is being in the EU. Part of me thinks give that | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
a try, but at the same time it is such a big decision and it is such a | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
risk that it is a lot for everyone as an individual to be making a | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
decision on and at the moment we have got no information to base that | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
decision on, so we'd be lost. Do you feel lost? Absolutely, I am Jules, a | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
property developer based in Manchester and London. Two weeks | :13:48. | :13:51. | |
away from what is going to be one of the biggest decisions in all of our | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
generation that will affect all of the people in this room, the Next | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
Generation and the next, the information that is coming out is | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
pathetic. The politicians really need to get their act together. The | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
leaflet that came to everyone's door, a five-year-old could have | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
read that. That was from the Government, the Remain Campaign. | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
That was not information in that and I want to make a good decision. I | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
feel that weighs heavily on us for what will happen in the future. | :14:24. | :14:32. | |
Emma, a Conservative MP. I totally understand how you are feeling and | :14:33. | :14:41. | |
the comments you have made today. I am a member of the European | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
Parliament and have been for seven years and I have a very well-paid | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
job and I am asking people to book me out of a job because it is not in | :14:50. | :15:01. | |
my countrybest interests. Jools, that is probably an honestly held | :15:02. | :15:07. | |
opinion from an MEP right here. In the end you will have to make a | :15:08. | :15:08. | |
call. Politicians always seem to get out | :15:09. | :15:27. | |
of the mire they get themselves in. Let's talk to Yvette Cooper. First | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
of all, do you accept that both sides haven't covered themselves in | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
glory when it comes to referendum? There has been a lot of shouting and | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
the shouting doesn't help people here. What the real arguments are. I | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
think it is also been quite a lot of debates been the Tory Party and it | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
is felt a bit more like it is about the future of the Conservative Party | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
when it should be about all of our futures and the future of the | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
country. I would like to hear a lot more from trade unions talking about | :15:55. | :15:56. | |
working people and workers' rights and it is good that we're hearing | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
some of them speaking out today. And also I would like to hear more from | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
young people because you know, in the end, this is about their future | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
and what happens to them. In term of everybody's question | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
about what are the facts? Part of the problem here is that we don't | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
know what the trade deal would be if we pull out. What we do know is that | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
it will be worse than the trade deal we have got at the moment. How do | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
you know that? How do you know that? Because think of what it means from | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
the point of view of other European Union countries. Why would they give | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
us a better deal than they've got? And a better deal than we've got? Do | :16:42. | :16:51. | |
you accept that? It will be a worse trade deal than the one Britain has | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
at the moment? How do you know it will be better than the one we've | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
got at the moment? We currently don't have inside the EU trade deals | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
with New Zealand, Canada or the USA, we are not focussing on what is in | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
the best interests of the UK. You are emphatic as Yvette Cooper was | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
emphatic the other way, you are emphatic it would be better than the | :17:18. | :17:27. | |
one we have got now? We don't have to accept either. Please can you | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
answer this question? Will it be better? Emma, please, will it be | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
better than the deal Britain has now with the sni It will. How do you | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
know that? Because the reality is that we will... We run a massive | :17:41. | :17:47. | |
deficit with the European Union. We are a really important market to | :17:48. | :17:53. | |
them. 2.5% of German exports is dealing with the UK. We export 44% | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
of British stuff to them. They export, sorry 7% of stuff to | :17:59. | :18:04. | |
Britain. But the trend is... The trend is 55% is going outside the | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
European Union. Jules, hang on, hang on, hang on. Can you officiate here, | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
please? It is still a lot of each sides, it is just bantering all the | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
time. We never seem to get any hard facts. Do you know what I really | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
want to hear is the probability of something happening or something not | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
happening because we keep, the politicians just keep using the | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
words, "Could and may." Let me tell you all... It is honest. It is not | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
informative because we are on the sixth floor of this building now and | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
this floor could give way at any moment. It is not a proper fact. We | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
need to know the probability of these things happening so we can | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
make informed decisions. Do you think the campaigners have risen to | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
the occasion? No. Not at all. Not at all. I've listened closely to both | :19:01. | :19:06. | |
sides and quite frankly I'm appalled at the backwards and forwards | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
shouting at each other. They are not telling you anything. | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
APPLAUSE When I came here today I had a | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
question to ask and it was to both sides, the Remain said, if we stay | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
in Europe or if we come out of Europe, you're going to lose as a | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
family ?4300 every year. You're going to lose ?1,000 each year on | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
your mortgage. You're going to have to pay ?330 or ?350 every time you | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
travel. Please explain why you get the figures. On this side you say to | :19:40. | :19:47. | |
me, well, we get ?350 billion back if we come out. Billion. ?250 | :19:48. | :19:56. | |
million... A week. A week. I beg your pardon. Billion, millions, you | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
know, but at the end of the day, it is a big sum of money. Please | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
explain it. I want to know where you get your figures from. How you work | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
it out and please explain your argument to us because I'm not | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
getting it. APPLAUSE | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
I'm going to both sides the opportunity to give, if possible, | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
just two facts, facts, two facts. OK? Who would like to go first | :20:20. | :20:27. | |
Remain or Leave? Go for it Leave. Facts. I have said before, net ?8.5 | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
billion a year. That is what we pay net to the European Union. When you | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
look at our social services, you look at our National Health Service, | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
our education, everything, that money can be better spent at home in | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
this country looking after the people that we have here. OK. Pause. | :20:52. | :21:00. | |
Hang on. Hang on. What is your name? We need a microphone. Victoria just | :21:01. | :21:06. | |
wanted facts. You're not answering my question. The fact is... Victoria | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
wanted a fact. That's a fact. How did you get to the figure? | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
Second fact. So ?8.5 billion is what Britain contributed to the EU in | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
2014. That is a fact. Next fact. The second fact and you're not going to | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
like this fact, but it is a fact that none of the politicians can | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
actually deny, there are no answers to this at this moment in time. | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
There are no guarantees. All I know, all I know, that is a fact, is if we | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
stay in, there will be more legislation, and it is we are | :21:50. | :21:57. | |
sending a mandate for more interference in our own Government | :21:58. | :22:00. | |
and we will get dragged into the euro and this gentleman... Hang on, | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
that's not a fact that we will get dragged into the euro. You've | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
strayed from fact into... Hang on. Shush. Two facts from the Remain | :22:09. | :22:16. | |
side. Facts. This woman asked about why travel costs in Europe would go | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
up. It is very, very straightforward. At the moment if | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
you need emergency care when you're travelling in Europe, you can just | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
go to a hot and then our Government is billed for that care. If we come | :22:26. | :22:33. | |
out, if we come out, we will need to have travel insurance. Because there | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
is, because there is an agreement. OK. OK. OK. Hang on. Hang on. Hang | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
on. Hang on. Please don't shout. Yvette Cooper, | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
two facts, please. We know in the first few years while everything is | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
in chaos and all the deals are trying to be negotiated, we know, | :22:57. | :22:59. | |
there will be a huge uncertainty for businesses. We know a lot of them | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
will pull back on their investment, why would you invest when you don't | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
know what the trade deals are going to be? We know there is a | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
significant risk of going into recession. A significant risk of job | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
losses in the first two years. It is not a number, I can't put a number | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
on and nobody can guarantee you a number, but you can say 100% | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
likelihood they investment will be hit. That jobs will be hit. And that | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
people's livelihoods will be hit in those first few years. | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
APPLAUSE OK, I want to ask people in the | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
undecided section what they think of the quality of those facts. Hello. | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
Hi, I'm a student at Sheffield University. It is hard to believe | :23:40. | :23:44. | |
the facts from Remain when you had David Cameron who said that the UK | :23:45. | :23:47. | |
can survive outside Europe and has come out and said that the economy | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
would erupt as soon as we leave Europe. Jeremy Corbyn isn't giving | :23:55. | :24:03. | |
us his true views on Europe which is he wants to leave. Yvette Cooper, | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
obviously Jeremy Corbyn isn't here, but as a member of his party, he is | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
your leader, what would you say? He has been campaigning over the | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
country. Are those his true views? Jeremy Corbyn has not been afraid to | :24:18. | :24:21. | |
say his views on all sorts of things even when it is controversialment | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
you can guarantee that he would tell us what he thinks and that's what he | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
has done. APPLAUSE | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
OK. Hang on. Hang on. Yes, hello. I would like to react to what the | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
Conservative MP said. She mentioned, she is a MEP. She used the word | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
interference and the word take ig control and that's something that | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
most of the politicians on the Leave side have been saying. In mined I | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
wonder, does this not translate to running away from accountability? | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
Because we say that the EU interferes in things, but how about | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
simple things like Human Rights? The fact that we enjoy Human Rights come | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
from the fact that we are members of the EU. Hold on. Hold on. When you | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
are not satisfied, when you have looked for solutions in our local | :25:13. | :25:22. | |
courts we can take it to the European Court of Human Rights. Yes, | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
they will make laws as they deem fit and they will make law to say suit | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
themselves. Who will suffer? Every day people like you and me. Every | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
day people like you and me will suffer, yes. So that is why we need | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
to remain. We need to remain because if we leave, we're taking a huge | :25:44. | :25:45. | |
leap into the dark. OK. | :25:46. | :25:59. | |
Pause. Pause. That's why we referred to that side as xenophobic. Thank | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
you. Thank you. Thank you. OK. Right, it is coming up to... Ladies | :26:04. | :26:12. | |
and gentlemen, Clem will you stop shouting, please? | :26:13. | :26:20. | |
Thank you. APPLAUSE | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
It is 10.25am. We have got lots more to discuss. A little more about the | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
campaign and a little more about the scaremongering. Also towards the end | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
of the programme, we're going to ask our 45 undecides here if a miracle | :26:34. | :26:37. | |
has happened and if they have reached a conclusion? | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
Before that, Rebecca Jones has a summary of the latest news | :26:43. | :26:42. | |
headlines. Leading Brexit campaigners have | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
claimed a vote to remain could mean Britain has to pay billions | :26:49. | :26:50. | |
of pounds more towards The Remain campaign says the figures | :26:51. | :26:52. | |
are nonsense and claims the UK would have a veto on any | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
proposed budget increase. Both sides have been setting out | :26:57. | :26:58. | |
their arguments on this programme. I love Europe. What I'm worried | :26:59. | :27:14. | |
about is this xenophobic group over here. Why do you say they are | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
xenophobic? They are going to take away British, our British rights to | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
have visa-free travel, to study in Europe. | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
I resent the accusation that voting for Leave is xenophobic. That is | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
unfair and unjustified. APPLAUSE | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
Everything I have, I have because of immigration and I'm not | :27:36. | :27:37. | |
anti-immigration. I'm in favour of it. What I am against is | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
uncontrolled, mass immigration. Scientists in the United States have | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
begun using a controversial technique to create human organs, | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
by growing them inside pigs. Critics have expressed ethical | :27:47. | :27:49. | |
concerns about the project, by a research team at the University | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
of California which involves injecting human stem | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
cells into pig embryos. The aim is to produce a pancreas | :27:58. | :27:59. | |
suitable for a human transplant. The body of Muhammad Ali has | :28:00. | :28:06. | |
arrived in his hometown The boxing legend | :28:07. | :28:08. | |
died at the weekend. His family accompanied the coffin | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
as it was driven in a convoy His funeral will take place | :28:15. | :28:16. | |
there on Friday, when former US President Bill Clinton | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
will deliver a eulogy. At least three people have been | :28:22. | :28:29. | |
killed and nine injured in a crash involving two trains in eastern | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
Belgium. Some of the injured | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
are critically hurt. The accident happened when a | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
high-speed passenger service crashed into the back of a goods train | :28:40. | :28:41. | |
near the city of Liege An eyewitness said two carriages had | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
been completely destroyed. A new study suggests that women | :28:45. | :28:51. | |
who have had breast cancer could benefit from staying | :28:52. | :28:53. | |
on hormone blocking drugs That's more than double the number | :28:54. | :28:55. | |
of years they're The US study found that long-term | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
use of the drugs could cut the risk However, there are also warnings | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
about the drugs' side effects. That's a summary of the latest news. | :29:07. | :29:14. | |
Now the sport. Thank you, Rebecca. Good morning. | :29:15. | :29:23. | |
Andy Murray's first French Open final ended in defeat. He was beaten | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
in four sets by Novak Djokovic who claimed his first title in Paris and | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
he becomes only the eighth player in the Open era to win all four Grand | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
Slam and the first since 1969 to hold them all at the same time. | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
Wales ended their preparations for euro 2016 on an under whelming note. | :29:45. | :29:53. | |
They were beaten 3-0 in Sweden. Jamie vrdy is expected to decide | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
whether he will join Arsenal from Leicester City later this morning. | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
The decision is expected to be made before he flies out with the England | :30:00. | :30:06. | |
squad to France for Euro 2016 at 11.30am. Mo Farah broke the diamond | :30:07. | :30:16. | |
league record. He recorded a time of 7 minutes 32.66 seconds to break the | :30:17. | :30:19. | |
long-standing record by a tenth of a second. That's all the sport. Back | :30:20. | :30:21. | |
to Victoria. What we have heard today is that | :30:22. | :30:48. | |
quite a number of people, particularly in the undecided | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
section feel weighed down by the responsibility of this vote and they | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
do not know what to do and they want to make the right decision, but they | :30:58. | :30:59. | |
do not know what it should be. I'm sure most of us | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
have talked about it Jo-Ann and Stuart Clutton, | :31:06. | :31:08. | |
you're split, aren't you? How long have you been married? 30. | :31:09. | :31:23. | |
Congratulation. It is a sentence! It is not a sentence, he looks like a | :31:24. | :31:27. | |
genial kind of guy, but you are split. To be honest, I am appalled | :31:28. | :31:41. | |
at this morning. I am sorry. I was undecided towards leave, but just | :31:42. | :31:45. | |
hearing everybody, it is a slanging match. Everybody is shouting each | :31:46. | :31:51. | |
other down. This is very important to us. We have a son as well, it is | :31:52. | :31:59. | |
his future, not just ours, and it is extremely important we get this | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
right. I would rather people turn around and say, we cannot guarantee | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
this or that, but not to shout each other down like what has been | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
happening this morning. I do believe you should use your vote. People | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
have lost their lives in the past, so you should use your vote. Quite | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
honestly at this moment in time I do not want to vote because I really do | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
not know which way to go. I am even more undecided than I was before I | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
walked into this room. IDs the kind of you have in the kitchen? Every | :32:38. | :32:45. | |
night. I have to say I have been yes right from the beginning, but today | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
has demonstrated it does become a slanging match and it is an | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
important decision and people should vote. Because the stakes are so | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
high? To reinforce my view I have heard nothing from the league side | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
that would change my mind completely. As your husband tried to | :33:08. | :33:16. | |
persuade you to go to remain? No, we have both got our own minds and we | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
both make up our own minds and I have not seen anything from either | :33:21. | :33:29. | |
I am a self-employed counsellor working in two schools. And who is | :33:30. | :33:48. | |
this lady over here? I am Erica and I have worked in education before I | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
retired. I am a mother of two and children can make their own | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
decisions. We are grandparents to five children and this is a very | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
important decision because we are voting on their future and that is | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
what has convinced me to remain. How long have you been married? Firstly, | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
I would like to apologise, I have been shouting. We have been married | :34:14. | :34:21. | |
for 38 years. It has not been disrespectful, it is purely out of | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
frustration. It is borne out a lot of one-sided arguments were all we | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
are getting is scaremongering tactics and nobody is allowed to | :34:30. | :34:35. | |
reply the facts and when facts are presented, they are dismissed as not | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
factual. The evidence is there and you can research on the Internet. | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
Can I replied, Victoria? You certainly can. Can I just say thank | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
you to the BBC for putting on programmes like this where the | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
public can have a voice, even if we have shouted. We have made a | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
commitment to each other to disagree agreeably. Yes, we have, and we do, | :35:01. | :35:07. | |
each day. So you still love each other? Very much so, even after 38 | :35:08. | :35:16. | |
years. Can I raise a question about travel insurance? I'd pay mega | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
travel insurance to travel to Europe because I have got a heart | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
condition. I had a heart attack ten years ago. If I want to travel in | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
Britain, it costs me nothing. But I have to pay four times to travel in | :35:34. | :35:42. | |
Europe. If I want to travel further, it costs me more. But I also have to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
pay an excess. Staying in Europe does nothing for me. Mary on Twitter | :35:48. | :35:54. | |
says, I am watching your programme today and the behaviour of some of | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
the audience members is disgusting. Sarah says, I cannot believe why | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
articular and decent adults behave in such a manner. Susannah says, the | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
Brexit side seemed to be so aggressive. Score on twitter says, | :36:10. | :36:14. | |
stopped the shouting and bickering, this is a national debate. Rees | :36:15. | :36:20. | |
says, I tuned in thinking I was watching the Jeremy Kyle show! Let's | :36:21. | :36:31. | |
talk about security because that is a serious issue, and let's start on | :36:32. | :36:37. | |
the Remain Campaign site. What is the evidence Great Britain would be | :36:38. | :36:46. | |
safer if we stayed in? We do a lot of cooperation with Interpol and | :36:47. | :36:57. | |
Europol and a lot of people have been deported to stand justice. We | :36:58. | :37:05. | |
also deal with people traffickers and online crime and so many serious | :37:06. | :37:11. | |
crimes that affect us now. If we did not have those partnerships with | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
other European countries, that would make as we can. We have got the | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
heads of MI5 and MI6 and the top police chiefs and the Nato Secretary | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
General have also said we would be stronger if we stayed part of | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
Europe. And what is the evidence that the UK would be safer if | :37:30. | :37:36. | |
Britain leaves the EU? The former head of MI6 himself said it would | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
not impact and we would be safer and more secure when we leave the | :37:41. | :37:44. | |
European Union. The former head of Interpol has said that the Schengen | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
area, it was basically a passport free zone for terrorists to commit | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
crimes and escaped. That comes all the way up to our borders and we | :37:56. | :38:01. | |
would be more secure if we came out. I mentioned earlier about the | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
supremacy of the European Court. It is trying to overrule our | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
intelligence agencies in the actions they are able to take in terms of | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
confronting terrorism and that was undermining security for the UK. The | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
first thing we do when we leave would be to make sure that the | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
European Court could not overrule us in terms of the security and the | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
intelligence they receive, we need to have full control here in the UK. | :38:29. | :38:35. | |
You quoted a former spy chief and a former head of Interpol. You know | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
the body of opinion that says we are safer in the EU is pretty | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
overwhelming. The Prime Minister, the Defence Secretary, five ex head | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
of Nato, former head of MI5 and MI6, the former head of Britain's despite | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
industry, many people with many years of experience protecting | :39:00. | :39:01. | |
British citizens and people around the world, do you accept that body | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
of is overwhelming? I quoted you people who set the exact opposite. | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
We need to have control over our borders to make us more secure. We | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
ask for more control and they say no. We cannot stop the Schengen zone | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
having that check free zone where they can come and go as they please. | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
It basically comes right up to us. That brings the pressure up to our | :39:30. | :39:36. | |
borders in the UK. We are already out the Schengen zone, so we can do | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
border checks on our border. The border controls we currently have in | :39:42. | :39:46. | |
Calais, thanks to the French and the agreement across Europe, will move | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
back to Dover and it harder. That is a bilateral agreement between the UK | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
and France and that will continue, it is not an EU agreement. That is | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
scaremongering. Why would you take that risk? Why would you go against | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
the advice of the top police chiefs whose job it is to keep us safe | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
right now. They tell us to do that, why would we vote to make their jobs | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
harder? We should be able to make the borders secure here in the UK. I | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
am Tom from Altrincham and I study politics at the University of | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
Sheffield. I want to talk about the European arrest warrant. Taking | :40:29. | :40:35. | |
people from one country and putting them into another country is | :40:36. | :40:37. | |
completely against everything we stand for. Secondly, it seems | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
elementary that if we cannot control our own borders and we have not got | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
an Australian style points system in place, we cannot stop criminals from | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
coming into the country. How does that make us safer at all when we | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
cannot control our own borders? It is elementary. We can deny entry to | :40:58. | :41:05. | |
EU citizens who pose a threat to security or public health. Not all | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
of them. We have problems with the potatoes, including Abu Hamza and's | :41:15. | :41:21. | |
daughter-in-law. This is outrageous. We have extradition warrants across | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
the world, it is not just a European thing. I do not get the problem. Why | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
don't we have extradition warrants? If we lose it, that is 7000 people | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
we would not have been able to deport over the last few years. | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
People should have to face justice when they are accused of a crime in | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
a country. They should not be able to flee across borders and escape | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
justice. They should be able to face it. My name is Lloyd and I am | :41:51. | :41:58. | |
currently finishing a PhD in nuclear physics. I do not understand why | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
there is so much concern about security and threats of terrorism. | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
If you look at the statistics, there is a one in 8000 chance you will be | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
hit by a car today. There is a one in 9,200,000 chance that you will be | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
involved in a terrorist attack. Why are we taking such an important | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
decision about something that is so unlikely. The question about the | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
European Court of Human Rights, there is nothing that you are saying | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
today that can attract those statements. I am Adam and I am from | :42:35. | :42:42. | |
Warrington. One of the reasons I am undecided is one of the reasons we | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
have been talking about. It is regarding information. I was a | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
special police constable in Lancashire for about ten years. | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
Every single day I came into work was the intelligence side. We use to | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
get loads of intelligence about criminals from France, Germany or | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
Spain who came over to England. With that stop if Britain left? That is | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
one of my concerns, but I cannot see that being truthful. There is no way | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
that if we left the UK that Germany, France and Spain are going to say, | :43:20. | :43:26. | |
you have left, we will not give you any more information. The argument | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
from the Leave Campaign is they might not give us so much | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
information. They might not give us the volume and the quality that | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
people say we get at the moment. If that was 100% yes or no, I would be | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
on that side. As a special police Constable it was fantastic. We have | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
the best intelligence people in Europe. There is no way that we | :43:53. | :43:59. | |
would not share information. If you have information about a terrorist | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
threat, you will share that with other countries. There is no way | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
that Germany won out a terrorist event is going to happen in the UK | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
and will not tell us about that. I do not think anyone has suggested | :44:15. | :44:21. | |
that. I am Michael from Dover. I just recently qualified as a train | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
driver. One of the point I want to raise is what Yvette Cooper said | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
about the European arrest warrant an extradition warrant. Why can't we | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
have both? Surely it must be in the interest of European countries and | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
member states to have the European arrest warrant and extradition | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
warrant? Why can't we continue with that agreement, but the outside the | :44:45. | :44:53. | |
EU? You would have to renegotiate a whole new legal basis for it and the | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
same with intelligence sharing. You would need a legal framework to do | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
it, otherwise things would not stand up in court. Many of the leave | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
campaigners thinks we should not. You may think we should, and I | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
agree, I think we should keep those things in place, but others think we | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
should not and you would have to go through years of uncertainty, trying | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
to re-establish those frameworks which took a long time to get | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
established in the first place. I do not think we should take the risk of | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
our security of starting all over again. | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
We are going to talk about sovereignty and democracy in a | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
second. Just have a think about what you want to say on that. Regard that | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
European Arrest Warrant, why would we have to start the negotiation | :45:42. | :45:48. | |
again? You have to have the laws would be passed, they would have to | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
be agreed in Europe and they would have to be agreed in Britain. Over | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
the last two years there has been a big debate around Parliament with | :45:57. | :45:58. | |
the Conservative MPs in Parliament arguing we should rip up the | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
European Arrest Warrant. It is not straightforward. It is not everybody | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
agrees. This is just obvious. I think it is obvious. A lot of police | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
officers across the country think it is obvious, but the danger is we | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
would put so much of that at risk if we pulled out. All right, OK. Right, | :46:13. | :46:18. | |
hello. Good morning. Good morning. How are you? My name is Keith. I'm | :46:19. | :46:25. | |
from Middleton just north of Manchester. I want to make a point | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
about democracy particularly to the undecideds here. Economics is here, | :46:32. | :46:38. | |
but it is surely not more important than the principle that under pins | :46:39. | :46:40. | |
everything which is democracy. APPLAUSE? If we vote to stay in, how | :46:41. | :46:49. | |
can we ever talk to anybody again about the benefits and principles of | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
democracy when we are bidsily voting them away to four levels of | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
unelected bureaucratic, nobodies that I don't know in the EU? How can | :47:00. | :47:06. | |
we do that and still claim that we are a democratic country? | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
APPLAUSE How do you respond to that? I have | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
heard a lot about sovereignty in this debate and one of the main | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
reasons that people wanting to leave are state that we should. What's | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
confusing me is why we want to preserve the sovereignty rather than | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
have a great Europe and why we can't have a more democratic EU within the | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
EU? I would like to see, I would like to see is us making change | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
within the EU and making it more democratic. I thought I just made | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
the point... We are only democratic if we are voting our self in this | :47:45. | :47:48. | |
country. If we hand it over to four levels of only one which is elected | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
they can only vote on what the commission proposes, how can you | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
call that democratic? We fought for democracy. We fought for the vote. | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
Our forefathers would be turning in their graves to see us voting away | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
the votes that they fought for. It is absolutely ridiculous. | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
I believe it can be more democratic, but I think we can make that change | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
from staying within so can't we look at how we can make it more | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
democratic inside? I want to check, you are undecided, are you? I am | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
undecided, yes. Hi. Good morning. My name is Jeff and I'm 59 from Salford | :48:29. | :48:33. | |
and I spent 40 years looking after people as a trade unionist. You see | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
want to talk about sovereignty and democracy. Let's talk about | :48:38. | :48:45. | |
democracy, 24% people in this country voted the Government in, | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
which means that 76% didn't vote the Government in. We ended up with a | :48:50. | :48:54. | |
Coalition Government in this country, I don't remember seeing | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
coalition on the ballot form. You want the trade unions to have, can I | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
finish or do you want to keep the empty vessel noise you've done all | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
morning on that side. Go ahead. Sorry about that, but I'm really, | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
really angry, yeah about all the rubbish that's been talked. Let's | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
talk about fact, yeah. Fact, 24% voted a Tory Government in. 76% | :49:17. | :49:23. | |
didn't. Until we oppose first past the post in this country and go to | :49:24. | :49:29. | |
proportional representation, we'll never have a democracy, right. | :49:30. | :49:32. | |
Listen, how many people didn't vote in the last general election? Seven | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
million people who had the vote didn't vote. Don't talk to me about | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
democracy. Yeah. All right. You haven't got a clue about democracy, | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
but as for voting out of Europe, I would readily vote Europe right out | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
of Europe given the chance. Thank you, Jeff. Before we talk to our | :49:51. | :50:02. | |
undecideds again. If you want to pass the microphone around with your | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
final thoughts if you would. My name is Gary. I have an independent | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
financial advisor. One of the jobs thave' got when I'm looking at... | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
Don't make a speech. Is looking at the overall risk. We have heard some | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
interesting things today, but it has been disappointing that the | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
undecideds here have not had sufficient facts, they are not been | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
able to put forward, people on both sides, haven't been able to put | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
forward sufficient facts and I would say the majority of the people here | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
and the undecide have not heard anything much that will actually | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
convince them one way or the other. I think it is very, very sad. Hello. | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
I'm Victor. I'm a retired secondary headteacher. For the last ten years | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
I was in Wythenshawe as a headteacher. We need some measure | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
here there are good points on both sides. I'm in the Remain camp and | :50:57. | :51:03. | |
firmly in that, I voted, I was young once, I voted back in the 70s and | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
I've lived through the European Union expansion. I have seen the | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
good things it has done, clearly, everything has not been good, but | :51:12. | :51:20. | |
certainly, for my sons and for their children when appear, I think being | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
in a European Union that co-operate on economic and migration and also | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
the other measures in terms of workers' rights, and equality, | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
that's what I want to see for the next generation and the generations | :51:33. | :51:34. | |
that follow me. Thank you. Thank you, Victor. | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
APPLAUSE Hang on, we have got a few minutes | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
of the programme remaining and for the last few minutes, let's focus on | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
these 45, just take a seat if you wouldn't mind, take a seat for a | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
second, thank you. These 45 people here in the middle, who are right | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
here at 9am undecided. Some were leaning towards leave, some leaning | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
towards remain, but none had reached a conclusion. And gosh, it seems | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
like days ago now, one of our contributors said they were hoping | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
for a miracle to see if today could help make up their mind. So, I'm | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
going to ask you if you by any chance you have managed to reach | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
some kind of conclusion? If you have, and it is fine if you haven't, | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
but if you have, please stand up now. | :52:21. | :52:30. | |
OK. So most of you are still undecided. That doesn't surprise me! | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
The people who are standing up, would you move to the section, | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
remain here or leave here that represents you. If you go towards | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
the back of the section that now represents you. | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
APPLAUSE Let's hear from some of you. Hello. | :52:48. | :53:07. | |
So you've gone from decided to leave. Tell us, introduce yourself | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
and tell us why? My name is Gemma. I live here in Manchester. I'm a staff | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
nurse in the NHS. APPLAUSE | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
I've mainly been on the fence through the whole debate this year | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
because I've been frightened to death of being demonised as a | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
racist, as a accident owe fob, you know, when you raise the issues | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
about immigration and the effects it has, I can only tell you about my | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
experiences working in the NHS and our services are stretched to | :53:44. | :53:49. | |
breaking point. Absolute breaking point and... Are you saying that's | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
because of the number of Europeans using the NHS? Yes. OK. Can you pass | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
the microphone. Let's hear from somebody who moved from undecided to | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
remain. I'm Jess and a student and bookmaker. The way they have | :54:08. | :54:10. | |
conducted themselves and the way they have gone about things is | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
appalling and I do not want to be associated with that side. I've done | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
a debate like this with 200 young people aged 18 and 20 #25 and they | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
had more respect than all of them put together. You are Across you're | :54:23. | :54:32. | |
appalling. Is there anybody on the leave side | :54:33. | :54:37. | |
who wishes to cross the floor to the remain side and is there anybody on | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
Remain who wishes to cross the floor to the Leave side? | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
I will give you that opportunity right now. | :54:44. | :54:55. | |
Mohamed, are you moving? CHEERING AND APPLAUSE | :54:56. | :55:07. | |
OK. Mohamed, briefly, briefly. I still agree that democracy and | :55:08. | :55:10. | |
sovereignty is very important, but the way they've conducted themselves | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
and I think socially, financially, agree with this side more and I will | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
have to say I have always said I would vote out, but the way people | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
are behaving and the talk of immigration, it makes me feel sick. | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
Who is still undecided? All the people here. Yes, hello, why are you | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
still undecided, sir? You see, I have been watching this debate here | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
as well as in the media. And to be honest, what I thought from this | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
side was essentially what Boris Johnson was saying. I'm not wiser | :55:45. | :55:51. | |
today. The politicians normally convince very good. When they can't | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
convince you, they scare you. No facts we know today that make up my | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
mind either way. What do you do for a living, sir? I am a GP. I am a | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
doctor. I have worked for the NHS for 35 years. I wanted to hear the | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
NHS is safe staying in or staying out. There wasn't any chat about the | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
NHS. After economy, after immigration, the most important | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
thing which affects the people here is the NHS. OK. | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
APPLAUSE Pass the microphone behind you. You | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
are still undecided. Sir, tell us why? I'm Sean, I'm from Manchester. | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
The debate is too complex for in or out. That's the choice I am afraid. | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
? It shouldn't be because it is so important. In history, this will be | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
a chapter because it is decisive. If it is a 50/50 vote, there will be | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
lots of unhappy people and that will continue like the Scots and it will | :56:52. | :56:53. | |
continue and it will continue. Cameron should have negotiated | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
better. APPLAUSE | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
Hello. What do you need to hear in the next couple of weeks to help you | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
make up your minds? Basically I can only start with here first. I think | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
some, there were some real facts on the Leave side, but I wasn't | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
convinced a in the sense that a lot of the stuff that was spoken about, | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
it implies a lot of immigration issues. That is the catalyst for | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
some of the leaving. That's my perception of it. OK. So on the day, | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
on 23rd June, how are you going to make up your mind, briefly? | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
I'm still open. Very open. I might not even vote. | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
Oh my gosh, really? Wow. OK. OK. I'm going to pause there, ladies and | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
gentlemen. I am going to thank you very, very much for your | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
contributions today. I want to thank our guests as well. | :57:58. | :58:09. | |
APPLAUSE Do give yourself a huge round of | :58:10. | :58:16. | |
applause. Have a good day. We're back tomorrow at 9.15am. | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
APPLAUSE | :58:21. | :58:24. |