Browse content similar to 22/06/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Together we can build a stronger economy. Together we can create more | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
jobs. Together we can meet challenges, whether it is climate | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a great | :00:32. | :00:36. | |
country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
and gets things done by working with others. We don't quit and walk away | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
from organisations, we make them work for us. The ideal position for | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
us is to take back control tomorrow of huge amounts of money so we can | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
spend it on our priorities, take back control of our immigration | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
system and take back control of our democracy. That's what this is all | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
about for me, it is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
our own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do. | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
If you're still yet to make your mind up, | :01:08. | :01:09. | |
we've got our two impartial fact checkers who're here to answer any | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
Also on the programme, in his first TV interview | :01:13. | :01:22. | |
the grandfather of six-year-old Ellie Butler tells this programme | :01:23. | :01:24. | |
she'd still be alive if justice had been done. | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
The girl's father was jailed for life for her murder yesterday. | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
He'd previously been convicted of shaking her | :01:32. | :01:34. | |
when she was just six-weeks-old, but that was later overturned. | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
We'll talk to Ellie's grandad live in the next half hour. | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
And the children's author missing for 11 weeks after reportedly saying | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
Friends tell us they have no idea what's happened to her, but plead | :01:45. | :01:52. | |
Let somebody know. Just let someone know you're safe. Have your space, | :01:53. | :02:03. | |
have your time, just let us know you're OK. | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
In Paris the Northern Ireland fans are still recovering after | :02:09. | :02:11. | |
celebrating one of the greatest nights in their footballing history. | :02:12. | :02:14. | |
They were beaten by Germany, but have made it through to the next | :02:15. | :02:16. | |
round here at the Euros. We're live until 11am | :02:17. | :02:26. | |
every weekday morning. Throughout the programme we'll bring | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
you the latest breaking news and developing stories | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
and as always, we're really In 15 minutes time we will bring you | :02:34. | :02:45. | |
our two independent experts who are here to answer any, well, we say | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
our, because they have been on so many times, they're friends of the | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
programme, to answer any last minute questions you have about the EU | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
referendum because quite a few people have still yet to make up | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
their minds. Please send them in because today is your last chance. | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
Get in touch on the stories we're talking about this morning as well. | :03:04. | :03:05. | |
Use the hashtag Victoria Live and If you text, you will be charged | :03:06. | :03:09. | |
Our top story today, it's the final hectic day | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
of campaigning before you get to decide whether we should stay | :03:13. | :03:14. | |
Both sides of the debate are making their last ditch | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
This morning, directors of companies employing nearly two million people | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
have come out in favour of staying in the EU. | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
They warn in an open letter that leaving will harm | :03:25. | :03:27. | |
But the inventor, Sir James Dyson, says a victory for the remain camp | :03:28. | :03:34. | |
will be what he calls "an act of national self harm." | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
Last night, campaigners for Remain and Leave clashed during a televised | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
debate at Wembley Arena in London as Vicki Young reports. | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
Pop stars, replaced by politicians at Wembley Arena. | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
This was the final showdown of the long campaign | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
with 6,000 watching up close and millions more at home, | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
here was a chance to argue the case one last time | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
Boris Johnson said will there be job losses? | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
All the Remain side have to talk about is Project Fear. | :04:09. | :04:21. | |
We are the fifth biggest economy in the world. | :04:22. | :04:23. | |
We will be able to accomplish free trade once we're free | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
Immigration has played a huge part in this campaign, provoking some | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
The first thing we should do tonight in a discussion about immigration | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
is celebrate immigrants and immigration and everything | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
that they do for our country because I speak entirely personally. | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
My family has benefited massively from immigration. | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
The problem is this - you might start off saying how | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
Project Fear, it has been Project Hate as far | :04:57. | :04:58. | |
But Remain demanded more detail on their opponents' | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
And I think the Leave campaign are selling people a big con | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
You have never promised to reduce numbers. | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
Have the Leave campaign ever promised to reduce numbers? | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
What we said is you take back control and you can decide. | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
Some have accused the Remain side of lacking passion, | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
And if we vote leave and take back control, | :05:30. | :05:43. | |
I believe that this Thursday can be our country's Independence Day. | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
The campaign teams here are assessing how the debate went | :05:47. | :05:53. | |
for them, but both sides seem to agree that this race is extremely | :05:54. | :05:57. | |
close and this could be one of their last chance to say | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
The Leave side stuck to their tried and tested message that Thursday | :06:01. | :06:08. | |
is all about taking back control, but the Remain side say | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
they were the only ones talking about bread and butter issues | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
Today, there will be one final day of frantic campaigning and then | :06:15. | :06:21. | |
Well, let's talk to our political guru Norman Smith who is at | :06:22. | :06:33. | |
Westminster. So what's happening today then Norman? We're going to | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
have to lie down and recover after last night! What a fer show shoulds, | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
angry and acrimonious occasion, but in a warks it is kind of, I think, | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
emblematic of this referendum and just underlines how divisive it has | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
been, how passionate it has been and how close it has been and how also, | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
you know, at the end of the day, we have heard the arguments, we have | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
heard the presentations and the speeches, at the end of the day, | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
basically, to comes down to two things. We know what they are, | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
immigration and the economy. And that is what it all boils down to. | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
Today, it was interesting listening to Mr Cameron, who was about, you | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
know, early doors doing various interviews, again, trying to defend | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
that pledge to get net migration down to the tens of thousands saying | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
on Friday, if he wins, he will seek to reform free movement within the | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
EU, how will other European countries react? I think they will | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
say to him, "No way Jose." He was saying that he was still regard it | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
as not a realistic ambition, so still trying to defend that pledge | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
which proved so damaging to him. He sought to boil his message down into | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
the one thought about being together. I am deeply patriotic | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
person. I love this country that I have the honour to be the Prime | :07:50. | :07:52. | |
Minister of. I really believe after six years in this job I can see that | :07:53. | :07:55. | |
Britain is stronger, Britain is greater, when we work through these | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
institutions like Nato, like the European Union, to fix the things | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
that we need to fix. If I could sum this-up in one wogt, it would be | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
together. Together we can build a stronger economy, together we can | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
create more jobs and together we can meet challenges whether it is | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
climate change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a | :08:17. | :08:19. | |
great country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
and gets things done by working with others. We see don't quit and walk | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
away from organisations, we make them work for us. Boris Johnson was | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
out and about early doors this morning after last night's debate. | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
He was in Billingsgate fish market where he was asked to kiss a fish! | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
He was pressed on I will gration and what was interesting is he is not | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
setting any figure on the number of migrants he thinks would be | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
acceptable. He is not making any pledge that if we leave the EU we | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
would cut levels of immigration even though I suspect many people who | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
have heard the rhetoric of the Leave campaign thinks that's what they | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
would do. They are not setting a target for reducing net migration. | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
Instead Mr Johnson was extolling the virtues of this Australian-points | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
style system. The ideal position for us is to take back control tomorrow | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
of huge amounts of money, so we can spend it on our priorities, take | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
back control of our immigration system, take back control | :09:21. | :09:22. | |
fundamentally of our democracy. That's what this is all about for | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
me. It is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on our | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do by | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
unelected, unaccountable officials in Brussels. And to speak up for | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
democracy on behalf of literally hundreds of millions of people | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
around Europe who agree with us. The last thing that struck me Vic | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
watching last night's debate was the extraordinarily feisty performance | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
of Ruth Davidson who voters south of the border haven't seen. It was like | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
a re-run, Nicola Sturgeon when she came down and dominated the platform | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
and Ruth Davidson was like a pocket battleship last night blasting away | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
at Boris Johnson and I will finish with this thought. There was a lot | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
of talk about who might succeed David Cameron and it seems to me, we | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
have seen during this referendum a clutch of formidable women emerge in | :10:21. | :10:27. | |
Tory ranks, not just Ruth Davidson, also Amber Rudd and Andrea Led some, | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
you just wonder if the next Tory leader might not be a man, it might | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
be a woman. Well, who would have thought! | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
We will bring you more on the EU Ryder Cup with our two independent | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
experts. If you have got a question, get in touch in the usual way. | :10:45. | :10:53. | |
Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary | :10:54. | :10:55. | |
A Scottish woman jailed for drugs smuggling has been released | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
from prison in Peru, and is flying back to the UK. | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
22-year-old Melissa Reid, who is seen here at Lima Airport | :11:03. | :11:04. | |
last night, was arrested in 2013, alongside Michaella McCollum | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million worth of cocaine in their luggage. | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
Miss McCollum was freed in March, but remains on parole in Peru. | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
Vigils will be held in cities around the world to remember | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
The grandfather of Ellie Butler is calling for a review | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
of the circumstances that led up to the six-year-old's death. | :11:20. | :11:21. | |
Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found guilty | :11:22. | :11:23. | |
He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
at their home in south-west London, in October 2013. | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
She died less than a year after she was returned | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
to her parents care following a custody battle. | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
Ellie's grandfather, Neil Gray, who looked after her for five years, | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
will give his first TV interview since the verdict to Victoria | :11:42. | :11:43. | |
Sir Cliff Richard has called for a change to the law so that | :11:44. | :11:49. | |
people accused of sexual offences have their identity protected | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
Last week prosecutors said he would face no charges over | :11:53. | :11:59. | |
historical allegations of sexual abuse. | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
But the singer told ITV's Good Morning Britain programme | :12:03. | :12:04. | |
that he feels his reputation has been tarnished by the accusations. | :12:05. | :12:10. | |
Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due | :12:11. | :12:12. | |
Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions | :12:13. | :12:19. | |
The gates officially opened an hour ago but people have reported queuing | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
for more than five hours to get on to the site. | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
More than 100,000 people are expected to descend | :12:26. | :12:27. | |
on Worthy Farm for the five-day event. | :12:28. | :12:36. | |
MPs could be able to sign themselves off work for up to weeks. Workers | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
need a note if they are off for more than a week. GPs say they should be | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
trusted more in order to reduce unnecessary appointments. The issue | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
will be debated a the British Medical Association's annual | :12:54. | :12:53. | |
conference today. That's a summary of | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us | :12:58. | :12:59. | |
throughout the morning. If you have got a question for one | :13:00. | :13:12. | |
of our impartial experts, or if you haven't made up your mind in | :13:13. | :13:15. | |
tomorrow's EU referendum vote, ask your question and maybe it will | :13:16. | :13:24. | |
help. If you text, it will be charged at | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
the standard network. Only one place for us to start and | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
that's with the achements of Northern Ireland. Despite losing 1-0 | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
to Germany, they have reached the knock-out stages of Euro 2016. | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
They've made it through as one of the best third placed teams. Well, | :13:44. | :13:52. | |
let's speak to Katie Gornell now. Katie really do have their | :13:53. | :13:58. | |
goalkeeper to thank, don't they? Well, they certainly do, Sally. This | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
was a huge game for Northern Ireland here last night and they knew going | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
into it that a draw would see them through to the last 16, but a narrow | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
defeat and their hopes would still be alive. It was going to be a huge | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
ask against the world champions and it looked like the task was going to | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
get harder when Gomes scored for Germany after half an hour. At that | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
stage, the pressure on the Northern Irish defence was relentless. What | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
the Germans didn't count was on was Michael McGovern having the game of | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
his life in the Northern Irish goal. He pulled off a string of fantastic | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
saves to keep the scoreline down, but for him, the score could have | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
been 6, 7, that's no exaggeration and that narrow defeat meant that | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
Northern Ireland had a good goal difference that saw them through in | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
the end to the last 16, after the result against Turkey last night. | :14:49. | :14:52. | |
Now, Michael O'Neill, speaking after the game, but before he knew his | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
side progressed, he was full of praise for Michael McGovern, of | :14:57. | :14:59. | |
course, but he said what an achievement it would be to get out | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
of that group. When you see the quality of the group we're in, | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
Ukraine, Poland and Germany and for us to come out of that group was an | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
immense achievement. A great group of players. They deserve the | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
opportunity to go to round 16. I fear who we may play, but that's | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
what this experience is about. We are taking lads here who play their | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
club football in the Football League and are coming up here and playing | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
against the best players in the world. So as I say, we want the | :15:25. | :15:26. | |
experience to Could it actually be an all home | :15:27. | :15:39. | |
nations are fair in the last 16? Yes, that is a possibility. They | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
will either play Wales in Paris, Northern Ireland, on Saturday, they | :15:45. | :15:51. | |
could play France in Lyon. We will know for certain after tonight bus | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
group games how the permutations worked out. When Mark -- when | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
Michael O'Neill was asked about it, he said he would prefer to play | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
Wales. He feels he has got a better chance against Chris Coleman's side. | :16:05. | :16:08. | |
He is also may be thinking about the fact that Wales are in a slightly | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
easier side of the draw. Maybe he has got one eye on the | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
quarterfinals. With their motto being Dare to dream, you never know. | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
Great stuff. Tonight it is the return -- turn of the Republic of | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
Ireland. They need a win to go through. It is a big ask. Italy are | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
set to rest many other players. Maybe there is a chance for the | :16:32. | :16:33. | |
Republic as well. So, there's just one day left | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
until the UK decides whether to leave or remain | :16:38. | :16:39. | |
in the European Union. One day left of a campaign | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
which has gone on and on and on and on and on - | :16:43. | :16:45. | |
and quite possibly produced more hot air and Punch and Judy | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
politics than anything else. Certainly more acrimonious than the | :16:51. | :17:03. | |
Scottish Independence Referendum, in my experience. | :17:04. | :17:04. | |
Here's some highlights - or perhaps lowlights. | :17:05. | :17:06. | |
It lasts a couple of minutes and features flashing and strobing | :17:07. | :17:08. | |
I will go to Parliament and propose that the British people decide our | :17:09. | :17:25. | |
future in Europe. Through an inn, in-out referendum on Thursday, the | :17:26. | :17:34. | |
23rd of June. The home you live in, your weekly | :17:35. | :17:36. | |
shop, the monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
spending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels, some of which is spent on | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Spanish bull-fighting? The real sure tonight is not in Brussels but in | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
Westminster. -- show. What matters is... All of which is... Leave. | :17:53. | :18:06. | |
Remain. After a great deal of heartache, I will be abdicating fold | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
leave. If people vote to leave on the basis of immigration, I'm afraid | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
they will find there will be in the same situation. The governor has | :18:15. | :18:23. | |
strayed into a simple personal prediction. The people who want to | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
drag the United Kingdom out of the European Union are now trying to | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
drag the Queen in. Napoleon and Hitler were all trying to create a | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
United States of Europe. I play with a straight bat. We're losing our | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
identity and we're glad to get swallowed up. I am very positive on | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
the EU. UK will be at the back of the queue. The American president is | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
saying rubbish. I am angry at the way the British people are being | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
misled. Not only have we get depressed wages for British | :19:03. | :19:10. | |
people... Scare stories. You are no fishermen's friend! You | :19:11. | :19:16. | |
are on the European Parliament Fishing committee and you attended | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
one out of 43 meetings. You are a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
show his absolute contempt for the men and women who have come here | :19:27. | :19:28. | |
today. I am campaigning to remain in the | :19:29. | :19:41. | |
European Union to protect the rights of workers. | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
Immigrants. Immigrants built this city. The | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
people who are going to bring this future forward on the country but | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
you are not worried. Have a leaflet. No. | :20:01. | :20:02. | |
OK. And yet despite - | :20:03. | :20:25. | |
or perhaps because of - the kind of campaigning we've just | :20:26. | :21:19. | |
seen, many of you are Some of you are still switching as | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
well. And it's the undecideds who hold | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
the balance of power when it comes to the outcome | :21:27. | :21:28. | |
in what is undoubtedly the most important political | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
decision of a generation. So if you are one of those | :21:32. | :21:32. | |
undecideds, we've bought back, by popular | :21:33. | :21:34. | |
demand, our two wise men - our objective, impartial | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
and unbiased experts who are here to answer | :21:38. | :21:38. | |
your questions before Hello again to Anand Menon, | :21:39. | :21:40. | |
who is a Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
at Kings College, and the Director of 'The EU | :21:45. | :21:46. | |
in a Changing Europe' group. And Will Moy, the Director | :21:47. | :21:49. | |
of Full Fact, an impartial organisation fact checking on issues | :21:50. | :21:51. | |
around the EU Referendum. It is probably worth saying to our | :21:52. | :22:04. | |
audience why you are both neutral and impartial. We are an independent | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
fact checking charity. We have been doing this since 2010 on all sorts | :22:10. | :22:17. | |
of topics. We are made up of academics who report the results of | :22:18. | :22:18. | |
the research they have done. We've also got some undecided voters | :22:19. | :22:20. | |
from right across the UK. Business owner Angelo Cicarelli | :22:21. | :22:22. | |
in Chelmsford and 22-year-old And Mick Dombey, talking to a slide | :22:23. | :22:35. | |
from his butcher's shop in London, where he may have two interrupt our | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
conversation to serve a customer or two. Good morning. Hello. My | :22:40. | :22:50. | |
difficult situation is, I am of Polish descent by self. My | :22:51. | :22:58. | |
grandfather came here after the war. I do feel that the eastern Europeans | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
are often seen as just here to get as much as they can off the welfare | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
state, as much as they can from the government, when from my experience | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
that is certainly not true. Most people come here because of the | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
reputation this country has. A very caring nation. A very warm nation. A | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
country with much empathy. So my difficult situation is, I feel in my | :23:27. | :23:33. | |
heart that I should vote to stay in. But when I see how many people | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
here... It is bit like Wembley Stadium, it can take 90,000. If you | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
have 120,000 people already in the stadium, I feel the pressure on all | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
of the services is very high. And whether they can cope with what is | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
happening. If the government could assure us that there are plans and | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
steps to actually build more schools, more hospitals, more old | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
people's homes, then I think we would all be a lot happier and could | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
make our decision easier. Particularly if they told us where | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
the money is coming from. That is a question for the comment of the day. | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
In terms of EU referendum, your question is about net migration and | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
what it would be if we remain relief? Yes it is. What would happen | :24:23. | :24:32. | |
in the future regarding our infrastructure, the roads, the | :24:33. | :24:35. | |
railways, the services, if immigration continues as it has done | :24:36. | :24:43. | |
over the next ten years? Will we be able to cope? That is my concern. | :24:44. | :24:53. | |
Let's hear what Ayn Rand and will have to say. What happens to net | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
migration in the UK up to 2030 to Two things to say. You are quite | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
right on the economics. People from Europe who come here contributed to | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
our economy more than they take out. What happens when we stay? We have | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
no obvious control over the number of people from other European member | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
states who come here to work. The majority of migrants from non-EU | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
member states now. If we leave, we have the power to control migration | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
from Europe and the rest of the world. Whether a government would | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
want to, would depend on the calculation of how good they think | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
migration is for our economy. It is difficult to tell. There is clear | :25:37. | :25:38. | |
evidence that migration does benefit the economy. The evidence is that | :25:39. | :25:48. | |
there is possibly a small economic benefit to immigration overall, and | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
that EU immigrants are probably better for our public finances than | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
non-EU immigrants. But we know they are affecting things like schools | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
more than things like nursing homes, because they tend to be younger. | :26:01. | :26:05. | |
That is why they affect schools more than hospitals. We also know that we | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
are not building of houses for everyone who needs a house already. | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
That is to do with the government of the day. Half of population changes | :26:13. | :26:20. | |
driven by immigration. Roughly half of immigration is coming from the | :26:21. | :26:33. | |
EU. It is a factor. OK. Mick, I don't know how far that goes to | :26:34. | :26:38. | |
helping you? I think it does go some way. It is more or less what we have | :26:39. | :26:44. | |
been hearing. I just think if the figures were clearer as to where the | :26:45. | :26:52. | |
money is going to come from, if the gum and decided, we will not | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
continue plans with HS2, the money will come from there, that would | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
really help. I would like, finally, just to say that I am so proud of | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
our nation and the way that we have dealt in the past with all of the | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
conflicts and everything else. I just feel that we are very lucky to | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
live in a country where everybody else would like to come and live. It | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
is a great credit to the British people, which I am very proud to be | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
one. There is no other country, as far as I am aware, with the word | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
great in front of it. You do not have great Belgian, great Germany or | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
great America. I hope on Saturday, or probably Friday, I hope on | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
Saturday the nation gets back together as we have done before and | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
we work to join and be as harmonious as we have been in the past. Mick, | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
that is quite a moving and wise sentiment. I thank you for it. Let | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
me bring in Naomi and Angelo. Naomi, what is your question? I was just | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
wondering how leaving or staying in the EU might affect the NHS, really? | :28:11. | :28:18. | |
The short answer is there is no direct effect on the NHS. We run the | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
NHS. What they have expressed concerns about is if leaving the EU | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
is bad for the UK economy, that probably means there will be less | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
money for the Gottman is to spend overall. That probably means there | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
will be less money for the NHS. That is not a given. We had a recession | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
in 2008. There was less money for the government to spend and they | :28:43. | :28:45. | |
choose to continue spending it on the NHS. That means more cuts | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
elsewhere to make that possible. That is the big concern with the | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
NHS. The EU does not run the NHS. It has some role in regulating medicals | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
and things like that, clinical trials, but it does not run the NHS. | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
Those decisions will still be made in London and Scotland etc. Why is | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
that question key for you? I think the NHS is so important to our | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
country. It brings people together. It looks after people who really | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
need it. I think it is really important that remains free at the | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
point of access. And that everybody who needs health care can get it. I | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
wonder if the response to your question helps you at all in | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
reaching a decision? I think you described reassuring in that whether | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
we leave or stay, hopefully the government will continue to fund the | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
NHS. Let's bring in Angelo. How are you? | :29:43. | :29:48. | |
Hello. Thank you for having me and thank you for the opportunity. What | :29:49. | :29:53. | |
do you do for a living? I run a sports company. We work with | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
children in schools and nurseries. We provide a wide range of different | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
sports services. My question is really about business. If we vote | :30:05. | :30:12. | |
Leave, how is it going to affect the business? It is hard and challenging | :30:13. | :30:15. | |
two to the facts to be scaremongering from both sides. How | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
is it going to affect business to how will it affect taxes? Will | :30:21. | :30:21. | |
things increase in price? Well, part of it will depend what | :30:22. | :30:32. | |
sort of business you are. If you are a business that didn't trade | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
externally or doesn't export or import, isn't reliant on firms that | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
import or export, it may not affect you very much indeed. A lot of | :30:41. | :30:44. | |
exporters like Dyson are in favour because they think if the pound | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
falls, it will be good for them. They can export more because the | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
pound will be weaker. If you are a company that trades with the | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
European market on the other hand, the answer is partly I don't know | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
because it depends on the deal we get, but it might become hard tore | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
trade with the European market, so it is different for different | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
businesses I am afraid. Will? About nine out of ten businesses don't | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
export to the EU. But some big businesses do and it is a very | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
important market for quite a number of businesses. There are two | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
fundamental things that will affect every business. One is if we have an | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
economic slowdown as a lot of people predict even on both sides in the | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
short run, an economic slow down and in the longer run it gets more | :31:26. | :31:27. | |
uncertain. Would that be an opportunity for you? Some businesses | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
would think it would be, but a lot of businesses would be nervous about | :31:32. | :31:34. | |
that. The other is the great big decision that happens after the | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
referendum. If we vote to leave. We have to decide do we stay in the | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
single market or not? If we stay in the single market we will probably | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
still have access to sell into the EU and we will probably still accept | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
freedom of movement for us into the EU and for EU citizens into the UK | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
as well. If we leave the single market then all of those I shall | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
easterned who comes here and who can sell here and who can sell to the | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
rest of the EU come up for grabs in the negotiations. What are you going | :32:02. | :32:06. | |
to do between now and tomorrow to actually reach your decision or can | :32:07. | :32:08. | |
you imagine walking into the polling station and just making up your mind | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
on-the-spot? You know what I think a lot of people are going to do that | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
to be honest. And like I say, it is really hard to see the facts through | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
scaremongering from both sides. To be honest I am leaning more towards | :32:24. | :32:30. | |
remain. But you know, we've got a B52 time so, you know, we could be | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
swayed. Naomi, what about you, between now | :32:36. | :32:40. | |
and tomorrow, Naomi, can you envisage walking in there and just | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
making up your mind on-the-spot? Yes, to be honest, I think I | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
probably will end up making my mind up when I get there. Will you go | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
with your gut at the time that you happen to walk into the polling | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
station? I think I'm going to kind of read up a little bit tonight on | :32:54. | :33:00. | |
both sides and I don't know, flip a coin and while it is in the air, you | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
work out which one it is that you want! Oh my gosh! We are talking | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
about flipping a coin, wow, to make a decision that's so significant. If | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
you flip it while it is in the air, you know with your gut which side it | :33:15. | :33:18. | |
is that you want it to land on. Maybe I'll try that tonight. All | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
right. I've got some more questions here from people who are sending | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
them in from across the UK. Darrel e-mailed, "Is the possibility of a | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
second Scottish independence referendum real in the case of a | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
vote to Leave or is it simply an exaggeration?" Well, I think, I | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
would say two things on that. One, it is quite likely that the country | :33:39. | :33:42. | |
will be very divided over the vote. So you can see a situation where we | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
vote to leave, but Scotland has voted strongly to stay. And that's | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
where this comes from, the notion that the Scots have been outvoted by | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
the English. The SNP, I think, will only hold a referendum if they're | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
sure they're going to win it. They don't want to hold a second | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
referendum and lose it. It will depend partly on the polls. I think | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
if the polls start to show a significant lead for the Scottish | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
independence position, then they might be tempted to ask for a second | :34:05. | :34:11. | |
referendum, yes. OK. This tweet from Sarah, "Please explain the free | :34:12. | :34:16. | |
trade zone. The one that already exists from Iceland to the Russian | :34:17. | :34:25. | |
border." OK. You took a really deep breath there, Will. Why? It gets | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
complicated. Try and communicate in plain English! So we've got the EU. | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
28 member states. Every EU country has free movement between all of | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
them, free trade, free movement of goods so on and so forth and then we | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
have got other countries which are hangers on, countries like Norway. | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
Norway is a member of the European Economic Area. It has signed up to | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
free movement. It is signed up to a lot, but not all of the EU law, and | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
it gets a lot less say into what becomes EU law than EU countries do. | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
It pays some money into the rest of the European Union. Then we have got | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
Switzerland which is one stage further removed and it accepts some | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
EU law, but on a different basis. It pays some money on a different basis | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
and it accepts freedom of movement. Then we have got Turkey where there | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
is a Customs agreement and there has been for many years. You have the EU | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
as the core and then you have a whole set of agreements going out | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
there of different levels of integration. So it is fair to say | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
there is free trade going beyond the EU itself, it is also fair to say | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
that there are quid pro quos of that free trade in every case. This on | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
whatsapp from someone who doesn't leave their name, "I have just | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
renewed our family's ten year passports. Will we need to get new | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
passports if we vote to leave?" No. There is no such thing as an EU | :35:51. | :35:58. | |
passport. You won't have to. OK. Right, I'm going to ask you finally | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
to put your money where your mouth is and tell me what will happen. If | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
you don't mind, or will it affect your impartiality. We don't do | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
political punditry. I'm asking you for your opinion? I think it will be | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
very close. OK, that's the politician's answer despite you | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
being an academic. Listen, good luck. I really appreciate your time | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
this morning. Thank you. Cheers, thank you very much. | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
Still to come, we'll be speaking to the grandfather of six year | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
old Ellie Butler who tells this programme in his first TV interview | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
she'd still be alive if justice had been done. | :36:41. | :36:49. | |
We'll talk to the friends of the children's author who went missing | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
11 weeks ago who said she needed time to herself. Police ruled out | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
foul play. Friends tell us what happened to her is a total mystery. | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
Here's Joanna in the newsroom with a summary of today's news. | :37:05. | :37:06. | |
It's the final hectic day of campaigning before you get | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
to decide whether we should stay or leave the European Union. | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch | :37:15. | :37:16. | |
David Cameron said he doesn't believe there are any risks to the | :37:17. | :37:24. | |
UK to stay in the EU. Boris Johnson, who is on a tour of England says it | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
is time for a totally new relationship with our partners | :37:29. | :37:29. | |
across the channel. A Scottish woman jailed for drugs | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
smuggling has been released from prison in Peru, | :37:34. | :37:36. | |
and is flying back to the UK. 22-year-old Melissa Reid, | :37:37. | :37:38. | |
who is seen here at Lima Airport last night, was arrested in 2013, | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
alongside Michaella McCollum from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million | :37:42. | :37:43. | |
worth of cocaine in their luggage. Miss McCollum was freed in March, | :37:44. | :37:46. | |
but remains on parole in Peru. Vigils will be held in cities around | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
the world to remember the life of the Labour MP, | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
Jo Cox, who was killed last week. Today would have been her | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
42nd birthday today. She was killed outside her | :38:01. | :38:02. | |
constituency surgery Her family, friends and former | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
colleagues will gather in locations including Trafalgar Square | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
in London, as well as New York, Sir Cliff Richard is calling | :38:10. | :38:11. | |
for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences | :38:12. | :38:22. | |
have their identity protected Last week prosecutors said Sir Cliff | :38:23. | :38:24. | |
will face no charges over historical But the singer told ITV's | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
Good Morning Britain programme that he feels his reputation has | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
been tarnished by the accusations. That's a summary of | :38:35. | :38:42. | |
the latest BBC News. Good morning. | :38:43. | :38:53. | |
It is a beautiful day here in Paris as you can probably see, the sun is | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
shining in the centre of the city, but it is even more special if you | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
are a Northern Ireland fan. Let's just remind ourselves of scenes from | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
last night. It was an incredible game. They are through to the last | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
16, despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A heavier defeat would have seen | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
them go out, but their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept them in the | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
gamement 1-0 was the final score there. Sparking huge scenes of | :39:20. | :39:25. | |
celebration in the ground. England have a rest day today. Lots | :39:26. | :39:34. | |
of the papers this morning talking about unrest within the England | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
camp. Some players unhappy about changes, including captain Wayne | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
Rooney, so far Roy Hodgson hasn't commented. And the fixtures are out | :39:44. | :39:55. | |
today. Newcastle go to Fulham. All the details, of course, on the BBC | :39:56. | :40:02. | |
Sport website. Newcastle, of course, starting life in the Championship. | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
That's all the sports news from Paris. Back to you. Thank you very | :40:07. | :40:08. | |
much, Sally. The head injuries sustained | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
by six-year-Ellie Butler were equivalent to those sustained | :40:13. | :40:14. | |
in a high-speed car accident. Except those head injuries | :40:15. | :40:17. | |
were inflicted her own father, Ben Butler, who was jailed | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
for a minimum of 23 years yesterday Butler was a violent and domineering | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
man who abused and controlled both his partner, Jennifer Gray | :40:24. | :40:37. | |
as well as their daughter. He'd already been found guilty | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
of shaking his daughter But that conviction was quashed | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
and a judge handed care of the little girl back | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
to both Butler and Gray. At the time, Ellie's grandfather | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
warned the judge who made that decision would "have | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
blood on her hands". We'll speak to him live in his first | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
TV interview in a moment. First, this is the case against Ben | :40:54. | :40:56. | |
Butler. This is the family life that Ben | :40:57. | :41:08. | |
Butler fought for. Go on, Ellie. And the life he destroyed in a fit of | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
rage. Six-year-old Ellie was living with a man on a short fuse as an | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
accidentally recorded phone call demonstrated. (BLEEP) off. There | :41:18. | :41:26. | |
were several aggressive text messages which the court heard was a | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
torrent of verbal abuse Butler unleashed on his partner. Butler | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
texted, "I can't cope anymore. Woke up. I am in a rage already. Been in | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
place so many times, my hands are shaking. One more mistake, I'm going | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
to lose it." He texted, "Stay out of my way or you will be hurt. Only | :41:49. | :41:53. | |
drunk I can stand you and your ways. Now go die." Days before Ellie's | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
death, Gray, wrote this, "If you weren't here, I would die. Just so | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
you know, that is truth through and through." Video also shows Ellie | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
with a black eye which Butler claimed was from a fall. Weeks later | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
in October 2013, he battered Ellie to death calling her mother moments | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
later. Jennie Gray worked opposite the old | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
baby, yards from the courtroom where the case has been heard. C TV | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
footage shows her rushing home to Sutton where they tried to stage | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
things to look like an accident. Before sending their younger child | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
to find Ellie and finally calling 999. My daughter is not breathing | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
properly. Jennie Gray is shouting with Ben Butler in the background. | :42:38. | :42:47. | |
She is laying there. OK, OK, darling I'm helping you now. It is a 15 | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
minute call in which Jennie Gray is instructed on how to resuscitate | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
Ellie. 30 times you need to pump the chest. Detectives soon worked out | :42:57. | :43:06. | |
Ellie had been dead for sometime. When you realise that at the time | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
the ambulance was called, it is give or take two hours after she first | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
knew, that is a is performance that must have been very difficult. | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
The couple had a history. In 2007 Ben Butler was convicted of shaking | :43:22. | :43:26. | |
six-week old Ellie. That was quashed on a legal technicality and Ellie | :43:27. | :43:30. | |
eventually returned to their care. The couple even went on television | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
to complain of their injustice. If anything, he was trying to be, you | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
know, the perfect dad, he was trying to get everything fine. So you | :43:39. | :43:41. | |
wouldn't have had any warning signs or anything that this man could have | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
the potential to be harmful to your baby? No, none at all. I heard no | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
smoke without fire from certain people. It took to pretty much last | :43:53. | :44:00. | |
month to clear my name completely. Jennie had you ever any doubts about | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
Ben? None, I had seen him with her as a baby. I seen, he wanted to see | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
her every day from the minute she was born and he came to see her, | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
even for a minute, even for ten minutes at the door every day just | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
to give her a kiss. Sir Mark was one of the Appeal Court judges who | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
quashed Ben Butler's 2007 criminal conviction on a legal technicality. | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
He can't talk about that directly, but it was the Family Court that | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
later allowed Ellie home. He has told the BBC that judges there faced | :44:32. | :44:39. | |
the most complex of decisions. They decided in a highly emotive context | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
and decided in a situation where a judge has to make a decision one way | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
or the other. If you get the decision right, fine. If you get it | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
wrong, either way there are serious consequences. But in the Family | :44:52. | :44:59. | |
Court, Mrs Justice Hogg went as far to exonerate Ben Butler. Until then | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
her maternal grandfather looked after her. The court ordered that | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
all files on the family held by the police, health, schools and social | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
workers should clearly say that Ben Butler had been exonerated and the | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
couple, or their solicitor could serve that order on any profession | :45:15. | :45:16. | |
they At Elie's school they found she was | :45:17. | :45:26. | |
often absent. The headteacher said normally there would have involved | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
social workers. There was no local authority involvement because of the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
family court judgment. All we could do was treat the issue as an | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
attendance issue. The official review into the case concludes the | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
court ruling... Making it difficult for others to protect a little girl | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
described by her teachers as gentle and thoughtful. | :45:52. | :45:52. | |
We can talk now exclusively to Ellie Butler's granddad, Neal Gray, | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
Good morning. Good morning. How do you react to the sentence handed | :45:55. | :46:11. | |
down to Butler yesterday? I am happy they gave him a severe sentence but | :46:12. | :46:14. | |
in my opinion the sentence should have been more severe. He should | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
have had at least 40 years with no remission. And the partner should | :46:19. | :46:26. | |
have had at least 20 years. I think they are both culprits, they caused | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
the death of Elie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say, | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
and so should the partner. That is your daughter. That was my daughter. | :46:36. | :46:42. | |
I have disowned her. You don't think one of your own offspring could be | :46:43. | :46:48. | |
possibly involved in a terrible tragic crime. Unfortunately she was. | :46:49. | :47:02. | |
Do except she was under his control? That he was domineering, abusive, | :47:03. | :47:11. | |
controlling? I understand he was violent and controlling but I thinks | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
-- think she is also capable of being the same with him. I would say | :47:17. | :47:23. | |
it is 50-50. You and your wife, Linda, cared for and nurtured Ellie | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
for five sixths years. Yes. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me. | :47:30. | :47:41. | |
Bubbly. A gorgeous little girl. Very brainy. Intelligent. And very | :47:42. | :47:50. | |
loving. She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She | :47:51. | :48:01. | |
had lots of friends at school. And the story is what Butler and her | :48:02. | :48:07. | |
saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and holds -- order | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
false lies. She was a gorgeous little girl. It is a great | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
privilege, excuse me, to have been a grandparent. And you looked after | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
her, you and Linda looked after her like she was your own daughter. Yes. | :48:22. | :48:27. | |
The reason you had her in your care was because Butler had a conviction | :48:28. | :48:33. | |
for assaulting her, for shaking her when she was six weeks old, which | :48:34. | :48:38. | |
was later quashed, as we know. That is why you were caring for her. Yes. | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
You fought to continue having custody of her when he and her | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
daughter were trying to get custody back, when his conviction was | :48:48. | :48:56. | |
quashed. Yes. From 2007 to 2012, were in court virtually every year | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
at periods of time trying to keep hold of Ellie. Ellie did not want to | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
go back to her parents. Her birth parents. Because she did not know | :49:06. | :49:13. | |
them. At the times they should have got to know Ellie, at the family | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
centre in Sutton, for two and a half years they never turned up to see | :49:19. | :49:25. | |
her. And Butler was very violent. You knew that, did you? You knew | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
what he was like? Yes. He was threatening to my wife and myself | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
and other members of my family. Jenny used to be aggressive and | :49:35. | :49:41. | |
threatening myself and my wife. If we were going to court for something | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
was supposed to have been set, she would talk to my wife and say, if | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
you've got anything to say to your solicitor, you run it through me and | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
Ben before you talk to your solicitor, otherwise you will be | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
looking over your shoulder for the rest of your lives. There were | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
threatening you and trying to control you? Yes. When the judge | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
handed custody back to Butler and your daughter, Jenny Gray, you said | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
you could upload blood on your hands. Why did you say that? I had a | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
premonition that Ellie would not be safe. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big | :50:22. | :50:32. | |
mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She did | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
not give the proper directions for the social workers, who were | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
independent business people. They were independent, work for | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
themselves social workers. Private social workers. They had not read | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
any of the notes. They did not know any history. We have attempted to | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
get a statement from Mrs Justice Hogg. We have not been able to yet. | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
At the time she said Ben Butler was the victim of a miscarriage of | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
justice. She exonerated him. She said he had not assaulted Ellie as a | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
six-week old. Yes, she said that. But I don't think she took any | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
notice of the medical evidence for the social workers, or the local | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
authority children's department. They all knew that Ellie had been | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
assaulted. She also issued this unpublished, onto yesterday, order, | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
this unpublished order that all professional, educational, medical | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
or social care bodies holding any files relating to Ali, must make a | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
prominent reference to the fact that Ben Butler had been exonerated. She | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
also went further than the appeal Court ruling, which had quashed his | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
conviction. She said, look, he is exonerated. That meant it was very | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
hard for you, for the headteacher, for the local authority social | :51:59. | :52:00. | |
workers to try to intervene if you had wanted to? Yes, I did not know | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
that exist until yesterday. How did you react when you found that there | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
was that order? I think it is terrible. I think the laws should be | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
radically changed. And judges should be made accountable either through a | :52:15. | :52:23. | |
proper office -- procedure Ore Home Secretary. After all, they are human | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
beings and they are not above the law. And wonder what you thought | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV, as we saw in that | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
clip, protesting their innocence, saying there had been a victim of a | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter joke. After | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called Max Clifford, a PR | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
guru, who is now also inside. I think their idea was to milk the | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
system for as much money as they could possibly get. It is an utter | :52:59. | :53:10. | |
farce. We know what Butler did on that day that Ellie died. He | :53:11. | :53:19. | |
inflicted awful, awful injuries. In a fit of rage, apparently. And then | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
summoned your daughter home from work to help Ukhov -- her cover | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
things up. Do you believe that your daughter genuinely believed Ellie | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
had died in an accident, which is what his story was? Do I believe | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
that Jenny believes? Yes. I don't believe she did believe she died in | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
an accident. I think she knew what had happened. She knew what he was | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
capable of. Because she had inflicted injuries herself several | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
times through the loss of other children. Why would she cover up the | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
murder of her daughter? I don't know. That is a question I cannot | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
answer. I often sold search myself, and my wife soul searchers, asking | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
why. When you have a child, your number one priority is always the | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
child. Anybody. But it is a father, a mother, grandfather, grandmother, | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
the child is the most important thing in this world, they are | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
precious. It is a privilege to have a child could my eyes. If you have a | :54:34. | :54:39. | |
child, you have got to look after that child completely and utterly. | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
They are the priority of your life. Without it, well, many nasty things | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
could happen, which have happened in the past years. I believe the social | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
services, laws regarding them, have got to be brought into the 21st | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
century. I also believe that the family courts system, as it is | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
today, has got to be changed radically. Brought into the 21st | :55:06. | :55:13. | |
century. You mean less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. They have opened up a | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
little bit. Open it completely. But on particular cases, keep the | :55:20. | :55:26. | |
child's name anonymous, if that has got to be. The child has got to be | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
protected. That is the most important thing. I don't think the | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
establishment have learned, we have had Baby P, we have had ten murders | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
in the last ten years of children, horrifically gone wrong, so many | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
inadequacies with social services are a family courts. Somebody has | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
got to stand up and make sure that no other child gets hurt like my | :55:53. | :55:59. | |
granddaughter got hurt. And I think that I will make it my goal for the | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
rest of my life to fight for any child to be saved. No child deserves | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
to go through what Ellie went through, or any of the other | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
children that have died. With July to see a public enquiry? Yes I | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
would. Very much. -- would you like to see. Your wife, Linda, died in | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
the first day of the trial. She has not been here to see justice, to see | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
the man punished, to see your daughter punished. And I understand | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
Jenny Gray didn't know that your wife had died, is that right, until | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
yesterday? That is right. My wife, in the last few days, she asked to | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
see the priest at the hospital, the Marsden in Sutton. She asked to | :56:48. | :56:56. | |
speak to a policeman. A very kind police liaison officer. She stated | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
she did not want Jenny to know that she had cancer. And she didn't want | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
to know that she had died. That was her wish, because she said she | :57:08. | :57:16. | |
doesn't deserve to know. We are showing our audiences picture of | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
Linda now. She was clear she did not want her daughter to know? Al are | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
no. She could never forgive her for what he had done to Ali. -- Ellie. | :57:25. | :57:32. | |
If it is all right with you, I want to play a little bit of the 999 call | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
played in court. This is the call that Jenny Gray and Butler made to | :57:38. | :57:43. | |
the emergency services when they were pretending to try to save | :57:44. | :57:44. | |
Ellie's life. Listen to me now, my daughter is not | :57:45. | :57:58. | |
breathing properly. You need to calm down and stop shouting. I cannot | :57:59. | :58:08. | |
hear you. What has happened? I need you to stop shouting because I | :58:09. | :58:12. | |
cannot hear you. Tell me what to do, please! I don't know what is | :58:13. | :58:21. | |
happening, my love. Brilliant. Keep doing that. You are doing a really | :58:22. | :58:25. | |
good job. What do you think of that? I think | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
it was all states. Like a play on a stage. -- all staged. All acted out. | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
You have to be a particular kind of person to be able to act that out, | :58:39. | :58:45. | |
haven't you? Yes, terrible. The judge described Ben Butler as self | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
absorbed, ill tempered, domineering, a man who regarded his child and | :58:49. | :58:55. | |
partner as trophies, having no role other than to fit in with his | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
infantile and sentimentalised view of family life, with him as the | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
patriarch whose every whim had to be catered for. How would you describe | :59:05. | :59:15. | |
Ben Butler? Evil. Pure evil. He can... Just one nasty, horrible | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
person, who is now taken off the streets. And hopefully made an | :59:20. | :59:27. | |
example of. And maybe the police can catch other people who do this kind | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
of thing. I know, finally, you do want to thank the police and all the | :59:35. | :59:37. | |
people who have helped you? Yes. Excuse me. I would like to thank the | :59:38. | :59:49. | |
homicide team who, through this three years, have supported my wife, | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
my family at every stage of their commitment to this order. And I'm | :59:56. | :00:03. | |
very grateful for their help and devotion of duty for what they have | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
done. And most of all, they kept my family and I completely in touch at | :00:10. | :00:14. | |
every stage where they could. I would also like to thank the Victim | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
Support people for their support for my wife, myself, my family. Without | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
either of them, I don't know if I would be here today. | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
We have got some lovely messages from people listening to. Harry | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
Tweets this. This is a moving tribute to Ali. This tweet from | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
Jane, this is devastating. Another says, oh my goodness, it is so sad | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
to hear Ellie Butler's grandfather. And John says, a public enquiry is a | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
good idea and I'm ready sorry for your loss. I'm very grateful for | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
everybody's support. Also my community where I live in | :00:58. | :01:08. | |
Warrington. # raez Sorry. The people in my community have been absolutely | :01:09. | :01:10. | |
fantastic. I cannot thank the police enough and | :01:11. | :01:24. | |
the Victim Support. Some news, this is just reaching us | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
here on the programme. It is to do with Rory McIlroy. Rory McIlroy says | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
he will not be taking part in the Rio Olympics because of concerns | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
over the Zika virus. Rory McIlroy says he won't be going to the Rio | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
Games because of concerns over the Zika virus. It is time for the | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
weather and here is Carol. We have got three zones, showers and | :01:53. | :02:01. | |
sunshine across Northern Ireland and the same across Scotland. This | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
weather front is introducing thicker cloud and rain. Muggy conditions to | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
the south of that and the South East. And drier conditions across | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
Northern England. Again, with bright or sunny skies. As we head through | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
this evening and overnight, we are expecting some torrential thundery | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
downpours. They could lead to localised flooding issues and you | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
can find out more on your local radio station. You can see how they | :02:27. | :02:29. | |
develop moving up the south-eastern quarter of the UK across Essex, | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
Sussex and Kent. Away from that, we have got drier conditions and fewer | :02:37. | :02:38. | |
showers, but it will be a muggy night. That leads us into the start | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
of tomorrow. Once again, all those thunderstorms to start the day | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
pushing away for a time. They will be replaced later on from the south | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
later on as temperatures rise. Still the south-eastern quarter of the | :02:51. | :02:52. | |
country that's likely to be affected. North of that, we are back | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
into bright spells, sunshine and showers. Temperatures in the north | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
up to 20 Celsius in Newcastle, but 24 Celsius in London. | :03:01. | :03:06. | |
I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
It's the final push a day ahead of the crucial decision on the UK's | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
place in Europe - the last arguments are being made | :03:19. | :03:20. | |
The UK will be in the back of the queue. I think the American | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
president is coming out with the same rubbish that David Cameron is | :03:28. | :03:30. | |
coming out. Uncontrolled numbers coming in here, not only depress | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
wages for working people. Nor do you control and address people's | :03:36. | :03:37. | |
concerns about immigration with scare stories. | :03:38. | :03:43. | |
After the vote tomorrow, then what The polls close at 10pm. That's your | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
last chance to vote. The results start coming in at 2am. Final | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
breakfast time. Set your alarm for 7am! | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
Six-year-old Ellie Butler's grandfather tells us, | :04:00. | :04:00. | |
in an exclusive interview, that the justice system | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
failed his grand-daughter and judges need to be held accountable. | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
I will make it my goal for the rest of my life to fight for any child to | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
be saved because no child deserves to go through what Ellie went | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
through or any of the other children that died in the last year. | :04:21. | :04:27. | |
We will bring you more reaction to that interview before 11am. | :04:28. | :04:29. | |
We'll be hearing from Sir Cliff Richard who's calling | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
have their identity protected until they are charged. | :04:36. | :04:42. | |
The name never should be out there unless you have been charged and | :04:43. | :04:49. | |
here I am 22 months and week later and no charge. I don't like the idea | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
of being collateral damage and that's what I have been for 22 | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
months. Good morning from Paris. Northern | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
Ireland fans are still recovering after their team was beaten last | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
night, but made it through to the next round at the Euros. Coming up | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
in the sport, we will have the latest on Rory McIlroy's decision on | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
not to go to the Olympics because of the Zika virus. | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news. | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide | :05:27. | :05:28. | |
whether we should stay or leave the European Union. | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch | :05:33. | :05:34. | |
Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU. | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
Meanwhile Leave campaigner Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
tour of England, says it's time for a "totally | :05:43. | :05:44. | |
new relationship with our partners across the channel". | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter | :06:00. | :06:07. | |
at their home in south-west London in October 2013. | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
She died less than a year after she was returned | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
to her parents' care following a custody battle. | :06:13. | :06:14. | |
A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
In his first television interview, Neal Gray, | :06:17. | :06:28. | |
Said he was worried that Ellie was in danger. I think Justice Hogg made | :06:29. | :06:40. | |
Yeah, yeah, that's the name. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big mistake. I | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She didn't | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
give the proper direction from the social workers who were independent | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
business people, you know, they were independent, they worked for | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
themselves social workers. They were private social workers as opposed to | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
the local authority. They weren't allowed to look at any history less | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
than three months prior to them taking over. | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due | :07:07. | :07:09. | |
Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
People have reported queuing for more than five hours to get on to | :07:13. | :07:20. | |
the site. More than 100,000 people | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
are expected to descend on Worthy Farm for | :07:24. | :07:25. | |
the five-day event. I had a tweet from a friend who said | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
it was carnage at Glastonbury! Do get in touch with us | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
throughout the morning. Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE | :07:38. | :07:39. | |
and If you text, you will be charged You were watching the interview with | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
Neal Gray the grandfather of Ellie Butler. Emma says, "A heartbreaking | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
interview on hashtag Victoria Live now. Ellie Butler's grandfather is a | :07:53. | :07:59. | |
brave man." This viewer says, "What an amazing man on your programme. | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
All the best to him for the future." Emmy says, "Children are precious | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
and should always come first. He is right, it is so true." This tweet | :08:10. | :08:15. | |
from Andy, "I'm in bits. What a brave man Ellie Butler's grandad is. | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
I hope he finds peace." Thank you for those. | :08:19. | :08:22. | |
Thank you, Victoria. Good morning, we're going to bring you up-to-date | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
with the Euros. The breaking news that you mentioned a moment ago, | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
Victoria. The golfer Rory McIlroy announced he will withdraw with the | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
Rishtion io Olympicsment McIlroy was in Paris to watch Northern Ireland | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
play Germany, but he has decided into the to play in the Games | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
because of concerns about the Zika virus. He is one of a number of | :08:51. | :08:58. | |
high-profile golfers to pull out. Adam Scott and Vijay Singh are the | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
others. He says, "After speaking with those closest to me. I have | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
come to realise that my health and my family's health comes before | :09:08. | :09:10. | |
anything else, even though the risk of infection from the Zika virus is | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
low, it is a risk nonetheless and a risk I am unwilling to take. I trust | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
the Irish people will understand my decision." Just to recap, that is | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
Rory McIlroy and the announcement that he won't be going to Rio. | :09:27. | :09:31. | |
Disappointing news for him, but he was probably quite a lot happier in | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
France last night where he watched Northern Ireland play their way into | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
the round of 16. They were beaten 1-0 by the world champions Germany, | :09:41. | :09:46. | |
but a huge performance from their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept the | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
score more than respectable. After other results last night they are | :09:50. | :09:54. | |
still in the competition! So a happy Northern Ireland camp. Not so for | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
the England team, it seems. Today's back pages are full of stories about | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
possible disquiet about the changes Roy Hodgson made to the team for the | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
final group game. Olly Foster joins us now. Olly, is the backlash | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
beginning, is it all starting to go wrong for Roy? Well, it went wrong a | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
couple of nights ago. Good morning, Sally. A glorious morning here in | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Chantilly, that backfired the changes. You make six changes and | :10:25. | :10:29. | |
Roy Hodgson was expected to win that match, but there was no discernible | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
change in pattern or pace and tempo and certainly, dropping the captain | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
Wayne Rooney, that was something that raised a lot of eyebrows | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
against Slovakia and Jack Wilshere really didn't fill that hole and | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
when Rooney came on things changed, but not quickly enough. So the | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
permutations now is that England are now in limbo really. Knowing that | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
they're going off to Nice on Monday, but who they face, well, we'll find | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
out later. The players have been given time off today. Some have gone | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
shopping in Paris. Some may attend race day behind me at the fantastic | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
Chantilly racecourse, they are trying to work out what the best 11 | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
is. Just like the rest of us! Olly, | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
thank you very much indeed. That's all for now. The breaking story this | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
hour, which is the news that Rory McIlroy, the golfer has withdrawn | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
from the Rio Games because of concerns over the Zika virus. | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
STUDIO: It will be interesting to see if other athletes choose to | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
follow his leadment | :11:47. | :11:47. | |
Both sides i leadment n the EU referendum | :11:48. | :11:59. | |
Both sides in the EU referendum debate are making their final | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
pitches on the last day of campaigning. | :12:03. | :12:03. | |
Putting the case to remain, David Cameron said that by staying | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
in, Britain had the best of both worlds. | :12:07. | :12:07. | |
I will decide our future in Europe through an in-out referendum on | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
Thursday, 23rd June. The home you live in, your weekly | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
shop, your monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
sending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels some of which is spent on | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
Spanish bull fighting. The real show tonight isn't in Brussels, but it is | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
here in Westminster. That's down to... Overregulating. Air fairy. | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
What matters is holiday pay... For the United Kingdom. Remain. Leave. | :12:42. | :12:49. | |
After a great deal of heartache, I don't think there is anything else I | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
can do. I will be advocating vote leave. If people vote to leave on | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
the basis of immigration I'm afraid they'll find they will be in the | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
same situation. What our judgment is, is a risk. The governor strayed | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
now into the expression of what is a simple, personal prediction. I think | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
it is appalling that the people who want to drag the United Kingdom out | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
of the European Union are now trying to drag the Queen in... Louis and | :13:15. | :13:23. | |
Hitler were trying to create a United States of Europe. We're | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
losing our identity and we are suddenly just going to get swallowed | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
up. I'm positive on the EU. The UK is going to be in the back of the | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
queue. I think the American president is coming out with the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
same rubbish that David Cameron is coming out with. I am angry at the | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
way the British people are being misled. Uncontrolled numbers coming | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
in, not only depress wages for working people. With scare | :13:48. | :13:56. | |
stories... You are no fisherman's friend. You are on the European | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
Parliament fishing committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings. | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
You're a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was show his contempt for | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
the men and women that have come here today. | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
# One way or another I'm going to find you, I'm going to get you one | :14:18. | :14:21. | |
way or another. # I'm going to... # | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
I'm campaigning to remain in the European Union. | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
This city wouldn't be what it is without immigrants. The question | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
is... Immigrants built this city. Oh, you don't want to listen, right. | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
People are going to bring this country forward in the future, but | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
you're not. Anyway, have a leaflet. Thanks. | :14:45. | :15:36. | |
So in just 21 hours the polls will be open and you will get to cast | :15:37. | :16:08. | |
your vote. Then what happens? When do we get a result? What could | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
follow in the coming hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades, | :16:14. | :16:22. | |
lifetime? Norman Smith joins me. All of the big broadcasters are setting | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
up their portable makeshift studios for what is going to be a global | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
news story. A massive story not just here in Britain, but frankly, around | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
the world. Let's look at the timetable from tomorrow night. Ten | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
o'clock is when the polls close. If you have not voted by then, my | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
friend, you are out of time. They will not be any exit polls for this | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
referendum because the pollsters say they have nothing to base it on. At | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
two o'clock we will get the result is beginning to come through. They | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
will be announced by local councils first. Those will trick on through | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
the night. At six o'clock, pundits, I think we'll be in a position where | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
they can start to call this result, to suggest which way it may be | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
shifting. You will probably have to wait until about 7:30am for the | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
official result from Manchester town Hall, when we will know whether we | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
have taken the momentous decision to leave the European Union or whether | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
we are going to stay in. I guess one of the questions which is going to | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
crop up straightaway is, what happens to the Prime Minister rock? | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
-- Prime Minister? Both Boris Johnson and David Cameron have been | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
clear he will carry on whatever the result. I will accept the verdict of | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
the British people. If they vote to remain, we will remain in the | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
European Union, the process of reform continues and we wake up on | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
Friday knowing that investment and jobs and the dividend will come to | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
our country. If we vote to leave, I will carry out that instruction from | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
the British people. That is what I said at the general election, that | :18:06. | :18:08. | |
is what was in our manifesto and that is what I will do. Whatever | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
happens at the end of this, and I have said this to the Prime | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
Minister, he has got to stay. The battalions of the argument are | :18:20. | :18:22. | |
unquestionably ranged against people like me. We are per trade as crazy, | :18:23. | :18:28. | |
cracked and the rest of it. I don't mind. I happen to think that I am | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
right. It is a very difficult case to make. I have thought a lot about | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
it for many years. Let's go through the different scenarios, depending | :18:40. | :18:46. | |
what happens tomorrow morning. The first scenario, Mr Cameron bursts | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
through the finishing tape, Remain win, the nation votes to stay in the | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
European Union. What happens? A statement from Mr Cameron on the | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
steps of Downing Street is likely pretty much as soon as we get the | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
result. He will stress how the nation has spoken, the decision has | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
been made, it is a once-in-a-lifetime generation. Then | :19:10. | :19:11. | |
over the next few days and weeks, reshuffle may be. Will Mr Cameron | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
seek a revenge reshuffle? Willingly seek to knife his treacherous | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
cabinet vote will it be a reconciliation reshuffle? Will easy | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
to bring in people like Boris Johnson? The other option runs | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
towards a unity agenda. Will Mr Cameron bring forward policies which | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
his party can rally around in the wake of this divisive contest? | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
Perhaps he will call a controversial vote on Trident, which is party can | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
unite around but it may embarrass Labour. The second scenario, what if | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
Boris Johnson and the Brexiteer 's burst through the finishing tape | :19:52. | :19:59. | |
first. What if we vote to leave? New leader would seem very likely | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
despite Mr Cameron's protestations that he will stay. The most likely | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
candidate, probably one Boris Johnson. But also they would have to | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
be a new deal. We would have to begin negotiations with the rest of | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
Europe because we would not longer be in the single market. We would | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
have to work out what sort of a trading arrangement we are bound to | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
have with the rest of Europe. Finally, new world because other EU | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
countries may also decide, if Britain has left, we want out, too. | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
It could lead to a total reshaping, even collapse of the European Union, | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
a change in the nature of global relations. There is a third | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
scenario. And that is a narrow, squeaky win for Mr Cameron. Both he | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
and Boris Johnson are neck and neck at the finishing tape. What happens | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
then? Plots galore. Expect Tory MPs to be manoeuvring, trying to ease Mr | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Cameron out, trying to push Boris Johnson into power. There is the | :21:03. | :21:08. | |
danger of a zombie parliament because some of Mr Cameron's critics | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
on the Tory benches may simply refuse to go along with any policy | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
to our legislation he proposes, and parliament could be reduced to a | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
zombie status unable to do anything. That might lead to a general | :21:22. | :21:27. | |
election. Maybe Mr Cameron would decide enough is enough, I cannot go | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
on like this, let's call a snap general election. If Boris 's | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
leader, he may want his own mandate. He could demand a general election. | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
We could see a general election before the end of the year. Tomorrow | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
is obviously a momentous moment. But do not think the political upheaval | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
and turmoil and change is necessarily going to end tomorrow | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
night. Wow! General election by the end of | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
the year. Oh, my word. Tomorrow is not the first time the British | :22:01. | :22:04. | |
public have had the opportunity to decide whether we become -- we're | :22:05. | :22:16. | |
part of the EU. Back then, the UK chose to remain. Throughout this | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
campaign I have said, I think we have all said, that in the community | :22:21. | :22:26. | |
or outside the community, Britain's future depends on our own efforts | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
here, our own inventiveness, our skill, our technology and restraint. | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
As always in the past but now as never before, Britain depends on the | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
efforts we make in our trade and in our industry, and the contribution | :22:42. | :22:48. | |
everyone of us to that effort. How many of those who voted 40 odd years | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
ago would vote the same way this time around? Let's vote to Kevin | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
Mulloy, who voted to stay in the EU. And June Bennett, who voted for | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
Britain to leave in the referendum. Good morning. Kevin, it was Remain | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
for you in 1975. What about now? It was a hard decision this time. I | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
spent several weeks agonising over it. I took into account, | :23:16. | :23:23. | |
sovereignty, EU immigration... I decided to remain. Jean, what about | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
you? Tomorrow I will be voting to leave. When we originally voted, we | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
voted to join, which is different to what it is now. How I felt then was, | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
we were OK, we could do business across the world, there was no | :23:43. | :23:45. | |
problem. Now there seems to be a lot of difficulties for the | :23:46. | :23:52. | |
small-business people who make up to 90% of employers in the private | :23:53. | :23:54. | |
sector, and they have horrendous problems. One instance is some | :23:55. | :24:01. | |
people I know who supply chemicals for swimming pools. The small | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
companies in England who would supply them can no longer afford to | :24:09. | :24:18. | |
because they have two apply under regulations, which will cost them | :24:19. | :24:21. | |
tens of thousands of pounds, which small businesses do not have. So | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
they are either closing down going into insolvency, and there is just | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
one company which now supplies, a large company based in Switzerland. | :24:30. | :24:37. | |
The consequence is that the product is four times more expensive and the | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
end product, the price has quadrupled. That cannot be right and | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
that cannot be the only time this is happening. Kevan, do you think you | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
made the right decision last time when you voted to remain? | :24:52. | :25:00. | |
Definitely. No doubt about it. Since then, the Iron Curtain has come | :25:01. | :25:07. | |
down. Access and into the EU nations has been achieved by Poland and a | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
number of European -- eastern European countries. It is a more | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
complicated situation. You get freedom of movement, which you did | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
not originally have. It was quite an agonising choice. But in the end I | :25:20. | :25:26. | |
looked at both campaigns, and by the way I am not supporting or | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
denigrating either campaign, I looked at it and the final question | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
I asked myself was, from the campaigns, which side, if any, is | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
actually quoting other authorities and other sources? And which side, | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
if any, is just quoting about itself and what it thinks? I came to the | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
conclusion that on the Remain side there are facts and figures that | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
have been put down, some of them are projections, admittedly. On the | :25:56. | :26:07. | |
Remain side... The Leave side were not citing any authorities. There | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
was not really anything that I could pin the tail on the donkey. There | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
was no donkey to put in -- pin the tail on, put it that way. In the end | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
I felt Remain was a safe bet. If we do not leave now, there is nothing | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
to say we could not leave and five or ten years. We could have another | :26:25. | :26:29. | |
referendum. If we do leave now, it is a mistake. There is no way we | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
would get back the rebates, the opt out to that we have been granted. | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
Thank you both very much. June Bennett who will vote tomorrow to | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
leave the European Union, as she did in 1975. And Kevin Mulloy, who has | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
already voted to remain in the EU, like he did in 75. | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
Sir Cliff Richard says he may take legal action against South Yorkshire | :26:56. | :26:58. | |
police and the BBC for the way they pursued and reported | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
unfounded allegations against him of sexual abuse. | :27:02. | :27:10. | |
He believes there must have been illegal collusion between the events | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
which led to a police raid of his home being broadcast on BBC News. | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
This must be an enormous relief? To get the news a couple of days ago | :27:18. | :27:31. | |
telling me that it was good news from the CPS was just fantastic. It | :27:32. | :27:36. | |
is very difficult for me to explain to people what it felt like for me | :27:37. | :27:43. | |
to be an innocent. But having these vile accusations thrown at me. The | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
wording is insufficient evidence to prosecute. The CPS, it is what they | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
do. There are certain terminologies they have two use. In this case if | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
they -- they never say there is no evidence. They just say insufficient | :28:01. | :28:05. | |
evidence. Nothing on which we can prosecute. In a way I still feel | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
tarnished. Insufficient suggests that maybe there is something there. | :28:10. | :28:14. | |
I know there isn't. I have had to to years of traumatic emotional trauma | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
to get over. Do you think the laws should be changed to protect the | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
identity of those who are accused? The Levenson report, that is a | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
guideline Fathi police should behave. It says, except in | :28:33. | :28:36. | |
exceptional circumstances, people should never be named unless they | :28:37. | :28:42. | |
are charged. In the case of people like myself or anybody that is not | :28:43. | :28:50. | |
charged... The name should never be out there, unless you have been | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
charged. And here I am, 22 months and a week later, no charge. I do | :28:55. | :29:02. | |
not like the idea of being collateral damage. And that is what | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
I have been for 22 months. You want to campaign for the Lord to be | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
changed on those who are accused. Do you think those who accuse should | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
have anonymity for life? I can understand protecting children. But | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
my accusers are all men, grown-up men. Probably in their 40s and 50s. | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
I don't see why they should be protected. What about the police and | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
how you were treated? And what about the BBC? There must have been | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
illegal collusion. I have never known, I don't think, investigations | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
take place with lighting and cameras and special angles for the | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
helicopter. It seemed ridiculous. I feel I have every right to sue for | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
the gross invasion of my privacy. Has it changed the way you trust | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
people? To a certain extent, yes. I am cagey having pictures taken with | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
people. I have always had photographs taken with grandparents | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
and their grandchildren. I have had my arms around the grandchildren. I | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
am a family entertainer. That is what I do. That is one thing I'm | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
going to have to try to get rid of. Cliff Richard. Still to come, Ellie | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
Butler's grandfather tells us he will fight so that no other child | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
has to suffer like his granddaughter. In the next 30 | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
minutes, we will talk about the control early's murderer, Ben | :30:29. | :30:34. | |
Butler, exerted over his family. And the mystery of the missing | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
children's author. Friends plead for her safe return. | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
With the news, here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom. | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
whether we should stay in or leave the European Union. | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch | :31:00. | :31:01. | |
Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU. | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
Meanwhile Leave campaigner, Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind | :31:08. | :31:09. | |
tour of England, says it's time for a "totally | :31:10. | :31:11. | |
new relationship with our partners across the channel". | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme | :31:15. | :31:16. | |
there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter | :31:23. | :31:29. | |
at their home in south-west London in October 2013. | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
She died less than a year after she was returned | :31:33. | :31:34. | |
to her parents' care following a custody battle. | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
Ellie's grandfather, Neal Gray, told Victoria he was worried | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
I just had a premonition that Ellie wouldn't be safe. And I think | :31:47. | :32:00. | |
Justice Hogg made... Yeah, yeah, that's the name. I think Mrs Justice | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
Hogg made a big mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
of the law. She didn't give proper direction from the social workers | :32:11. | :32:12. | |
who were independent business people, you know, they were | :32:13. | :32:15. | |
independent they worked for themselves, social workers. Yeah, | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
they were private social workers as opposed to the local authority. They | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
hadn't read the notes or they weren't allowed to look at any | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
history three months prior to them taking over. | :32:32. | :32:33. | |
Rory McIlroy has pulled out of competing at this summer's | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
Olympic Games in Rio over concerns about the Zika virus. | :32:37. | :32:38. | |
The world number four golfer says although the risk of infection | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
is considered low, it's not one he's prepared to take. | :32:42. | :32:43. | |
In a statement Mcllroy says his and his family's health | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
Organisers said current wet weather and ground | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
People have reported queuing for more than five hours | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
More than 100,000 people are expected to descend on Worthy Farm | :32:56. | :33:05. | |
A local MP tweeted to say he hasn't seen it this bad for years and Mr | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
Write to festival organiser Michael Eavis. | :33:14. | :33:15. | |
Our correspondent Fiona Lamdin has managed to get on site. | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
What's it like? A couple of tents are slowly going up. These are the | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
lucky people who have managed to get in. Yes, as you say, gridlock | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
outside the festival. They have asked people not to travel if they | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
come today and if you are live locally, you have been asked not to | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
travel unless it is urgent. The rain, it is taking hours for people | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
to park and these guys left Sheffield and you say it took you 16 | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
hours to get here. Tell us about your trip here. Well, we set off at | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
six o'clock and we got outside festival at 10.30 and we didn't move | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
this morning until 8am and that's how long it took. It was all because | :33:58. | :34:06. | |
of traffic in car park. Yesterday I saw the car parks, they were like | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
lakesment tell me what the car park was like when you got out this | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
morning? It wasn't actually that bad. We were in the camper van | :34:14. | :34:17. | |
fields because our friend who had to have a sleep because he no sleep for | :34:18. | :34:22. | |
16 odd hours. We have come down in the camper van. The camper van | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
fields aren't too badmed we are not sure what the car parks are like, | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
but the camper van fields were bad. The people were bringing the trucks | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
to bring all the cars in. OK, well you are the lucky ones that managed | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
to get here. They may have queued for hours, but they have a fantastic | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
spot of the Pyramid Stage. Well, that's good at least. I hope | :34:47. | :34:48. | |
they have a good time! Join me for BBC | :34:49. | :34:49. | |
Newsroom Live at 11am. Here's some sport now | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
with Sally in Paris. Good morning. It is a beautiful day | :34:54. | :35:03. | |
here in Paris especially if you're a Northern Ireland fan. They made it | :35:04. | :35:08. | |
through to the last 16 last night despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
heavier defeat would have seen them go out, but their goalkeeper, | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
Michael McGovern performed heroics to take them through to the | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
knowledge-out stages where they could face Wales. Disharmony in the | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
England camp perhaps. Reports suggest that some weren't happy with | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
the changes manager Roy Hodgson made for the final group game against | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
Slovakia. The Football League fixtures are out. Fulham face a trip | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
to Newcastle. And Andy Murray has been named second seed in the men's | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
draw for this year's Wimbledon tournament which starts on Monday. | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
Novak Djokovic is the number one seed. Britain's Johanna Konta is | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
seeded 17th in the women's draw. That's your sport. More in the next | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
hour. Thank you very much. | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
Nexts the mystery of the missing writer. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
Helen Bailey is a children's author who wrote the Electra Brown series. | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
The 51-year-old disappeared from her home 11 weeks ago. | :36:11. | :36:12. | |
She'd gone for a walk with her miniature dachshund Boris | :36:13. | :36:14. | |
and had reportedly said she "needed a little time to herself". | :36:15. | :36:19. | |
Police have ruled out foul play, but what happened | :36:20. | :36:21. | |
Our reporter James Longman has been talking to those who knew her. | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
Tell us more Helen Bailey missing since 11th April. People are | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
wondering what happened to her because it peaked their interests | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
because she left this note saying she needed some time to herself. Not | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
just because she is a children's author, but because she left this | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
particular note and people are wondering why she may have left a | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
note and they are pointing to her blog. She blogs on bereavement. Her | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
husband died five years ago and she writes this blog called Planet Grief | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
and she has written about how much his death affected her. Her friends | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
wondered if there was a resurgence of grief. After two and a bit months | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
her friends are saying it is uncharacteristic of her to not have | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
got in touch. The police have put out appeals. They have even asked | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
football fans to get in touch because she was a big Arsenal | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
supporter. She was a season ticket holder at Arsenal and she has been | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
seen with Arsene Wenger she met him in 2012ment her friends put together | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
a Facebook page. It is called Where Is Helen Bailey. Over 80,000 people | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
have looked at that page. There are still a lot of unanswered questions | :37:34. | :37:35. | |
as I've been finding out. It's a mystery that's | :37:36. | :37:43. | |
left everyone baffled. A woman and her dog leave home one | :37:44. | :37:45. | |
day and never come back. This is Royston in Hertfordshire | :37:46. | :37:48. | |
and it's where Helen Bailey lives. She was last seen over two | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
months ago, but she hasn't Helen Bailey is a children's author | :37:53. | :37:55. | |
and blogger and behind On 11th April this year, | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
she left her home , writing a note to her partner saying she needed | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
some time to herself. She left with her dog Boris | :38:11. | :38:12. | |
and headed to the Heath nearby on which she would | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
often go for walks. three walkers report seeing her that | :38:16. | :38:17. | |
morning and there was also a possible sighting the next day | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
of a bedraggled woman walking There's been no activity | :38:21. | :38:22. | |
on her bank accounts, her phone hasn't been used, | :38:23. | :38:35. | |
and she's not contacted Her neighbour, Mavis Drake, | :38:36. | :38:37. | |
is very confused. I would like to think that she has | :38:38. | :38:39. | |
done an Agatha Christie perhaps and is writing | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
a book secretly somewhere I can't believe that she's done | :38:43. | :38:44. | |
anything bad to herself at all, And I'm hoping that | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
Boris and she are OK. So this is the only thing that | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
worries me, she would not do anything to hurt anybody, | :38:56. | :39:09. | |
definitely not, so that's why I think we're all very | :39:10. | :39:11. | |
worried about her. Helen, we send you all our very best | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
love and care. We are longing to see you again | :39:15. | :39:26. | |
and we miss you, Helen, we miss you. Helen kept a blog about bereavement | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
following the death of her husband, He drowned while on holiday | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
with Helen in Barbados. When Bad Things Happen | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
in Good Bikinis. Her final blog post | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
earlier this year marked the five-year | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
anniversary of his death. There's been speculation | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
that her disappearance is the result Her new partner, Ian | :39:47. | :39:48. | |
Stewart, put out an Shelley Whitehead | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
was Helen's coach and They'd come to this | :39:53. | :40:11. | |
north London park for She made a comment on my Facebook | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
page the day she went missing, that morning, | :40:15. | :40:21. | |
at about 10.30am. I post every day and something | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
resonated with her and she made a comment on that | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
and that was the last time. So you posted "Three ways to fail | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
at everything in life". Blame all your problems on others, | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
complain about everything, and not It just doesn't look like a comment | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
from someone who's in a particularly She says Helen has moved | :40:37. | :40:46. | |
on from her sadness and had no idea why her | :40:47. | :40:54. | |
friend had vanished. Do you have any idea what might | :40:55. | :40:56. | |
be going through her I could only wish I knew | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
because this is so uncharacteristic, it doesn't make | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
sense at all for Helen to have So what goes through my head is, | :41:03. | :41:05. | |
where is she? Has she fallen somewhere | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
where If she was watching now, | :41:15. | :41:15. | |
what would you say? Let somebody know, just to let | :41:16. | :41:21. | |
someone know you are safe. Have your space, have | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
your time, just let The police appeal for information | :41:25. | :41:25. | |
went out last month, but they aren't everywhere else | :41:26. | :41:31. | |
are still as confused as ever. The grandfather of Ellie Butler | :41:32. | :41:44. | |
has told this programme there should be a public inquiry | :41:45. | :41:46. | |
into the circumstances that led up Yesterday Ellie's father, | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
Ben Butler, was jailed for at least He inflicted catastrophic head | :41:50. | :42:06. | |
injuries on his daughter in October 2013. | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
She died less than a year after she was returned to her parents' care | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
following a custody battle. A High Court judge sided with the couple | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
despite objections from the police and social services. Ellie's | :42:18. | :42:23. | |
grandfather Neal Gray gave us his reaction to the sentence its handed | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
down by the court in an exclusive TV interview. The sentence should be | :42:30. | :42:36. | |
more severe. He should have had at least 40 years and no reinition and | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
the same as the partner, Jennie Gray should have had at least 20 years | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
because I think they're both culprits. They caused the death of | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
Ellie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say and so | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
should the partner, Jennie Gray, that's your daughter? It was my | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
daughter. . I have disowned her. Through, because you don't think one | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
of your own off spring could be possibly involved in a terrible | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
tragic crime. Unfortunately, she was. And... Do you accept that she | :43:13. | :43:22. | |
was under his control? That he was domineering, violent, abusive, and | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
controlled her? I think yeah, I understand that he was violent and | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
controlling, but I think she is also capable of being the same with him. | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
So I would say it is 50/50. Right. You and your wife, Linda, cared for | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
and nurtured Ellie for five of her six years... Yes. Tell us a little | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
bit about Ellie. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me... Bubbly, | :43:51. | :44:05. | |
gorgeous little girl, very brainy and intelligent, and very loving. | :44:06. | :44:13. | |
She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She had | :44:14. | :44:21. | |
lots of friends at her school. And the stories that Butler and her are | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and utter false lies. | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
She was a gorgeous little girl and it was a great privilege, excuse me, | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
to have been her grandparent. I wonder what you thought Mr Gray | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV as we saw in that | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
clip, protesting their innocence, saying that they had been a victim | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
of a miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
joke. Because after that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
Max Clifford a PR guru who is now also inside and I think their idea | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
was to milk the system for as much money as they could possibly get. | :45:09. | :45:09. | |
Right. It is an utter farce. Do you believe your daughter | :45:10. | :45:22. | |
genuinely believed Ellie had died in an accident, which is what his story | :45:23. | :45:29. | |
was? I don't think she did believe she died in an accident. I think she | :45:30. | :45:36. | |
knew what had happened. She knew what he was capable of. She had | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
inflicted injuries herself several times. Through the loss of other | :45:42. | :45:49. | |
children. Why would she cover up the murder of her daughter by her | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
partner? I don't know. That is a question I cannot answer. I often | :45:56. | :46:02. | |
sold search myself, and my wife used -- my wife used to sold search, | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
asking why. When you have a child your number one priority is always | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
the child. For anybody. Whether it is a father, a mother, grandfather, | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
grandmother, the child is the most important thing in this world. They | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
are precious. It is a privilege to have a child in my eyes. If you have | :46:25. | :46:33. | |
a child you have to look after that child completely and utterly. | :46:34. | :46:40. | |
Without it, many nasty things would happen, which have happened in the | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
past years. I believe the social services laws have got to be brought | :46:46. | :46:51. | |
into the 21st century. I also believe that the family court system | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
as it is today, has got to be changed radically and brought into | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
the 21st century. Less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. Open it completely. | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
But in particular cases, keep the child's name anonymous, if that has | :47:11. | :47:19. | |
got to be. The child has got to be kept number one. That is the most | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
important thing. I don't think the establishment has learned. We have | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
heard Baby P, we have that victorious Colombia -- Victoria Klim | :47:30. | :47:37. | |
be. So many inadequacies of the social services or the family | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
courts. Somebody has got to stand up and make sure that no other child, | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
possibly, doesn't get hurt like my grand daughter got hurt. Neal Gray. | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
Let me read some of your messages. And says she has just seen the | :47:56. | :48:01. | |
grandfather and what a brave, wonderful person he is. Somebody | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
must be responsible for this terrible tragedy. We must have a | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
public enquiry. The judge should be held in Cannes -- accountable. Kevin | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
is a serving police officer. Seeing the emotions has reduced him to | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
tears, and that is not easily done. Alison found it absolutely | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
heartbreaking. I hope Ellie's grandfather finds peace. There are | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
so many of these. Jules says, Neal Gray, my heart is broken for you. | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
Let's talk to Claire Throssell whose two children were murdered | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
in a house fire started deliberately by her abusive ex-husband. | :48:36. | :48:37. | |
Emma Williamson is an expert in coercive control | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
Peter Gregg is from The Children's Society. | :48:44. | :48:56. | |
The reason we have got you together is to talk particularly about the | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
control that Ben Butler, the father of Ellie, the partner of Jenny Gray, | :49:04. | :49:15. | |
exerted over his family. Emma, I think it would be helpful to | :49:16. | :49:15. | |
describe coercive control. Good morning. Can I just start by | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
offering my condolences to Ellie's family, her grandfather in | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
particular. This is a horrific case. In terms of coercive control, what | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
we know from decades of research is that when we have spoken to victims | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
of domestic violence, women in particular, coercive control those | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
actually cannot see. If you have a physical assault and you have a | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
bruise, other people can see it but -- cannot see it but you can see it | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
yourself. Coercive control is about manipulating everyday situations. It | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
is about controlling her somebody reacts to a given situation. People | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
talk about walking on eggshells. They talk about having to respond | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
and reacted to their partner in order to keep some control, but | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
ultimately their abusive partner always has that control. There were | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
so many horrible texts Butler sent to his partner, and notes. One was, | :50:11. | :50:18. | |
just watch your mouth. Your mouth is the trigger for me. Yes. I think we | :50:19. | :50:26. | |
could give many examples from research we have been doing with the | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
victims of domestic abuse around coercive control. At some points you | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
do not necessarily need to have a direct threat. There is not a direct | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
threat to kill. That individual understands what will happen and | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
that they are abdicating responsibility. The blame is put | :50:46. | :50:48. | |
onto the victim. In terms of the children in particular in this case, | :50:49. | :50:54. | |
there was an expectation that she would actually abused the children | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
on his behalf. That was being manipulated and controlled by him. | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
Cler, you have experienced this kind of control. I wonder if you would | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
feel comfortable in telling our audience? Yes. My ex-husband was | :51:08. | :51:15. | |
very controlling. He would contact me many, many times in a day. Up to | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
16, 17 phone calls a day wanting to know where we were, what we were | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
doing. If I took the children out for the day, he would punish me when | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
he came for home from work. He would put us all down, destroy our | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
self-confidence. In the end you just look in the mirror and you do not | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
recognise yourself any more. It is very hard to break that cycle. The | :51:41. | :51:50. | |
boys showed so much courage to do that. In what way? They used to | :51:51. | :51:58. | |
stick up for me. They used to say, don't speak to my mum like that. And | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
I realised that I had to take them out of that. Children are like | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
rainbows they absorbed the light and reflected back. I did not want my | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
children reflecting that behaviour back to anybody else. They knew it | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
was wrong. Like you say, they walk around on eggshells. They never knew | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
what mood he would be in. Again, I got abusive messages, abusive texts. | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
It was a pattern of behaviour. It never seems to break until you get | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
the courage to do it yourself. Peter, what is the children's | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
Society review of the Ellie Butler case? A tragic and horrific story. | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
Listening to Ellie's grandfather makes it absolutely clear that at | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
the heart of this is Ellie, a young girl who was not being listened to. | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
We work with young people facing neglect, abuse and other things | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
going on in their lives. Too often. Nobody spends the time to ask them | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
questions about what is going on in their lives. The serious case review | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
in this instance has shown that time and time again opportunities were | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
missed to listen to what Ellie would have had to say, and potentially | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
avoided her tragic outcome. But in this particular case, as we now | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
know, Mrs Justice Hogg, a judge at the family court division, had | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
exonerated Ben Butler and effectively said, on all the local | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
authority files, social workers, police, health etc, it should be | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
prominent that Ben Butler had been exonerated. And private social | :53:41. | :53:48. | |
workers were involved. It excluded Local Authority workers from being | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
able to intervene. That is what the serious case review concluded. It | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
does. The many agencies that did want to stand up early, they were | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
not able to have that voice. The other thing the case review makes | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
clear is that time and time again opportunities were missed to listen | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
to Ellie in an independent way, in a Safeway, where parents were not | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
there, where they could talk to her on her own. They were missed by the | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
GP and on other occasions. If we can take anything from this sad case is | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
-- it is that in these instances we have to listen to the voices of | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
children. We have to trust what they are saying and respond. We have to | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
put their welfare first. Emma, if one was being coercively controlled, | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
how would you know at the time? That is Raly difficult. I think | :54:39. | :54:44. | |
absolutely one of the saddest things about this case is that Ellie was | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
not listened to, and neither were her grandparents. That would have | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
made a massive difference in this case. That happens throughout | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
contact cases. I also think front hand foremost in this case is not | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
necessarily Ellie, but a perpetrator who within the domestic violence | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
situation was coercively controlling his partner but also managed to | :55:12. | :55:14. | |
control and manipulate everybody else. This is one case where perhaps | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
the Local Authority got it right. They are often lambast -- lambasted | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
for getting things wrong. But they said this person was not fit to have | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
a child in his care. That caution and control does not stop at the | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
front door. It affects everybody else trying to take action and those | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
are brought into it. They think he is charming, they think he is a good | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
enough bad. What is ready important is that when we get to the contact | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
situation, abusive parents, most likely fathers, are seen as being | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
good enough parents. There is an assumption of a 50-50 split. What we | :55:54. | :55:59. | |
have shown time and time again is that is not appropriate if we want | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
to put the child first. Cler, I wonder when a partner is being | :56:04. | :56:10. | |
physically abusive, emotionally abusive, but they are manipulating | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
the outside world, putting on this charming front, how do you, as the | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
woman in the middle of that, let the world know something is not right? | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
It is very difficult. You are walking a tightrope. You are trying | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
to protect the children. And like they say, he is totally fooled -- he | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
has totally fooled social services. He was difficult, he was aggressive, | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
and I warned them about their behaviour -- his behaviour. He | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
threatened to commit suicide in June. I was not listened to and the | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
boys were not listened to because he presented a fund. But there can only | :56:52. | :57:00. | |
keep it up for so long. And then it goes. But by then it is too late. | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
Thank you all very much for coming on the programme. In the Williamson, | :57:05. | :57:13. | |
Peter Gregg and Clare. -- Ehmer. Some more comments from you. So many | :57:14. | :57:19. | |
regarding the interview with Neal Gray. Karen found heartbreaking to | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
watch. I wonder how the authorities can get it so wrong. I hope Ellie's | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
grandad gets the public enquiry to hold those people accountable. This | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
news from Germany. Investigators in Germany say if former nurse may have | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
killed dozens of patients by injecting them with heart | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
medication. The man was jailed last year from killing two people and | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
attempting to murder two others, but a court has ordered the exhumation | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
of 99 former patients at the hospital where he worked and have | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
found traces of this heart drug in 27 of the bodies. This from Germany. | :57:59. | :58:04. | |
Investigators say a former nurse may have killed dozens of his patients | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
by injecting them with heart medication. This after the court | :58:09. | :58:17. | |
ordered the exclamation of patients. They found traces of the drug in 27 | :58:18. | :58:23. | |
of the bodies. More on that coming up at 11. Thank you for your time. | :58:24. | :58:25. | |
Back tomorrow at nine. Goodbye. Britain's best athletes | :58:26. | :58:37. | |
head to Birmingham | :58:38. | :58:40. |