21/06/2016 Victoria Derbyshire

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Victoria is joined by undecided EU referendum voters and MPs supporting Leave and Remain. She also speaks to parents about how to talk to children about bereavement.

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Our top story today: Only two days to go until you get


to vote in one of the biggest political decisions


If you're still undecided, we've got two politicians


Hello, I urge you to Vote Leave because we can take back control of


our borders and our economy. I'm urging you to stay in the European


Union because we already control so much of our own affairs and it's the


best thing for you and your family economically. Also some undecided


voters will put their questions our politicians.


England and Wales are through -


but in markedly contrasting style.


An incredible performance from Wales, beating Russia 3-0 last


night. England are also through but they could only manage a goalless


draw against Slovakia. And an annual dog meat festival has


begun in south-west China - around 10,000 animals


will be slaughtered. Critics say it's inhumane


and should be banned - but supporters say eating dogs is no


different from consuming TRANSLATION: Our ultimate goal is


that the country can make a law to protect animals, especially the dogs


ear. Translate Bob it has been a tradition for us for years to


celebrate the festival. You can't change it simply because they love


dogs. This morning, we're going to play


you in full some of those moving and poignant tributes


to the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox In the next two hours, we'll hear


how she was described by her friends and fellow Labour MPs Rachel Reeves,


Stephen Kinnock and Alison McGovern, and we'll hear tributes


from her Conservative colleagues Do stay with us to watch those -


and you're welcome to send If you text, you will be charged


at the standard network rate. David Cameron's former


chief advisor says the Prime Minister was warned


by civil servants four years ago that it would be "impossible"


to meet the Government's key Steve Hilton claims Mr Cameron


was told "explicitly and directly" that EU free movement rules meant


net migration could not be reduced Let's chat to our political guru


Norman Smith at Westminster. What sort of impact is this having?


I imagine Mr Cameron's feeling pretty bruised because Steve Hilton


was one of his closest personal and political colleagues and here he is


taking chunks out of the PM with a fairly blunt charge this morning,


namely that there is no chance of getting net migration down to his


target of the tens of thousands so long as we are in the EU. Or than


that, Mr Cameron was told as much by his own officials back in 2012 when


they had a stop meeting to discuss the policy, and Mr Hilton goes on to


accuse what he called an insular elite of decrying and demeaning


people over their concerns about immigration, and he suggests it is


corrosive of trust in British politics. Number Ten are saying they


can't recall anything about this meeting at all and interesting,


today, we've heard from others, like Alan Johnson, who is heading up the


Labour side of the Remain campaign, arguing that even if we leave the


European Union, then there are still going to be high levels of net


migration into the UK. Have a listen to what Mr Johnson said.


This is not a referendum on immigration - still less David


If people vote to leave on the basis of immigration, I'm afraid they'll


find that they're going to be in exactly the same


situation because the issues are complex and leaving the EU


Indeed in terms of illegal immigration and immigration


from outside the EU, it'll make our situation worse.


Both sides in this referendum scurry around trying to get big-name


backers, celebrities, to come in on their side. For example, we've had


Benedict Cumberbatch and Keira Knightley saying they supporting


Remain and the new fad figures like Ian Botham and Michael Caine saying


they are backing Brexit today. Ian Botham and Michael Caine saying


they are backing Brexit Today we have the Uber celebrity David


Beckham. He has issued a statement strongly backing Remain at his


arguments are that he has played in a lot of different countries -


Madrid, Milan - and with a lot of foreign players, like Peter


Schmeichel, Eric Cantona, Roy Keane, and from that experience he has


gleaned that we are better cooperating and working together and


he urges people to think of their children and think of their


grandchildren when they are making this decision but he firmly believes


we are better voting to stay in. It is always a moot point how much


impact the celebrity endorsements have but there was a funny point


this morning on the Today programme when Michael Gove had just finished


doing an interview with Nick Robinson and the news came through


that David Beckham had endorsed Remain and they quickly picked up


Michael Gove on David Beckham's endorsement just as he was leaving


the studio. David Beckham has just come out saying he is voting for


Remain in the EU referendum and Michael Gove, who is leaving the


studio... John Barnes is for Leave and as a QPR fan, I know what it's


like to support the underdog in any event. Thank you very much. I go


through days, weeks, months here never learning anything particularly


new. Today I have learnt something new and that is that Michael Gove is


a QPR fan. Somehow I never thought of him going down to Loftus Road but


there you are, he is a QPR fan. Thank you very much.


Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary


Measures to tighten gun controls following the attack at a gay


nightclub in Florida, in which 49 people were killed,


Four proposals were brought before the Senate.


But it rejected plans to tighten gun controls,


including the restriction of weapons sales to people


Senators disagreed about how to prevent more attacks


A British man accused of trying to assassinate Donald Trump has


Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea to a charge


Investigators say he told them he drove to a rally held


by the Republican presidential candidate on Saturday


Our correspondent James Cook has the latest from Las Vegas.


The allegation is that he tried to grapple a gun from the hands or the


belt of a police officer here at the Treasure Island hotel in Las Vegas


on Saturday, where Donald Trump was holding a rally. Prosecutors,


according to documents a bit of a court, are citing the Secret


Service's account. They have interviewed Mr Sandford and they say


that he told them that he had travelled all the way from


California to Nevada, some distance, to do this, that he had stopped on


the Friday to practice, to learn to shoot at a firing range. Apparently


the suggestion was he had never actually fired a gun before and that


he intended to kill Mr Trump. It is said that he had a ticket for


another Donald Trump rally later that day in Casey was not successful


in the first one and he is said to have told the Secret Service that he


was prepared to die, he expected to die, in this attempt at top court


hearing few hours ago is at an early stage and was a preliminary hearing


and there was no opportunity for him to make a plea. He was a mandolin


custody and will be kept. The judge said he could potentially be


dangerous and potentially posed a flight risk as well. There was some


evidence that he may have had mental health issues in the past but the


lawyer who has been appointed by the court doubt on his behalf suggested


that was competent. He was not diagnosed as mentally ill at this


moment and he is due to appear in court again on July the 5th.


Parts of Brussels are on high alert after a police arrested a man acting


suspiciously in the centre of the city.


The area around the City2 shopping centre, a major commercial hub


in the middle of the Belgian capital, was sealed off and bomb


disposal teams have been called in - although it's thought that no


explosives were found on the suspect.


Figures obtained by the NSPCC suggest the internet is being used


by people across England and Wales to commit eight sexual offences


The crimes include inciting children to take part in a sexual act,


grooming victims before meeting them and live-streaming abuse.


The online world is playing a significant role in the sexual


abuse of children in the UK, according to the NSPCC.


The charity says predatory adults posing as children online have,


in the last year, committed an array of offences, including


grooming victims, serious sexual assault, and rape.


In a new report entitled How Safe Are Our Children, it


found that 3128 sex offences involved victims


This is the first time police forces have been asked to flag crimes


involving the internet, so comparisons with previous years


just aren't possible, but it likely that the true


figures are much higher, because at least six police forces


Sir Cliff Richard has said the stress of being publicly named


as a suspect of sexual crimes that he did not commit was so severe


The singer has recently been told the allegations will not be pursued.


He's told the Daily Mail he's been left physically and emotionally


exhausted by a two-year ordeal that began when South Yorkshire Police


raided his home after an apparent tip-off.


That's a summary of the latest BBC News.


Frank Yury much. Do get into achievers in the usual ways,


particularly if you England all Wales supporter. -- thank you very


much. If you text, you will be charged


at the standard network rate. Let's go to Sally in Paris. I assume


you're watching both keeping an eye on both but an England supporter, it


was tortuous, wasn't it? I managed to watch both games quite


neutrally and got very much caught up in the excitement of the Wales


game. And actually, let's remember, England are through. It wasn't the


best performance but they are through. England and Wales through


to the knockout stages of Euro 2016 after those games last night. Chris


Coleman's side outclassed Russia, 3-0,. Their group at their first


European Championship, with England second after being held to a


frustrating nil mill draw to Slovakia.


On top of the group, on top of the world.


A nigh that meant so much for Welsh football - for some,


Wales might have gone out yesterday, but where was the tension?


Certainly not in the mind of the Aaron Ramsey,


who finished this as if he was playing in the park.


Russia had looked flaky before this game, but now they disintegrated.


Neil Taylor had so long he could choose where to put


A demonstration that Wales' attacking threat


extends beyond Gareth Bale, but he remains front and centre.


A man who scored in a Champions League final,


he looks like he enjoyed nothing more than this.


As a nation, geographically, we are small.


But, I think, if you are judging us on passion, I think


you could describe us as a continent tonight, because that was amazing.


There is more than one way to qualify.


They made six changes in the game against Slovakia,


and if Jamie Vardy had done what Jamie Vardy generally does,


As it was, the angst grew and gripped them.


Despite near total dominance, Slovakia stayed stout in defence,


even when Dele Ali got through to the very last line.


For the manager, only the goal was missing.


I thought that we fully deserved to win the game.


I am very surprised in a tournament of this nature, we can play three


games, and in each of the three games, we have been


The question is, how far, and how fast, they are


There were some sensational scenes in the Cardiff fan zone yesterday.


Have a look at the reaction when those goals went


And wait till you see what happened at full time.


It was such a great performance from Wales.


Fearless, brave, heroic are just a few of the adjectives


Of course it is Wales' first ever European Championship.


Really proud. So proud for the country. And Gary speed's family...


It's been a fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Incredible dated top


never thought we would win 3-0. Just to get to the competition was enough


for us but to get through is amazing. The passion for Wales, we


are all behind the team. It is amazing


They play Germany here in Paris later.


We'll be hearing from our correspondent at the Parc des


Tomorrow the Republic of Ireland play Italy and their fans have been


winning admirers all over France and perhaps this is why...


# Twinkle, twinkle, Little Star... # That is brilliant!


Everyone with a baby and you get your baby to sleep, just gather a


few Northern Ireland fans. Raez Good morning.


It is 9.15am. Welcome to our programme.


Caring, eloquent, principled and wise".


"Above all she was filled with and fuelled by


"A voice of compassion, whose boundless energy lit up


the lives of all who knew her and saved the lives of many


Just some of the heartfelt tributes to the murdered MP Jo Cox


Throughout the programme this morning, we're going to bring


As MPs spoke, her parents, husband and two young children,


just five and three, watched in the public gallery.


At times you'll see politicians looking up


In moments of silence, her children could be heard playing.


The House of Commons was packed with MPs from all parties,


many fighting back tears, all wearing a white rose.


A single white and single red rose were also placed in the seat


where Jo Cox should have been sitting on the Labour benches.


This morning we'll play you some of the most moving and poignant


speeches and we'll start with that of her close friend and Labour


I stand today to honour a friend and colleague.


Along with shock, anger and grief, I have very many


Jo and I knew each other for around ten years.


I knew her husband, Brendan, for longer than that.


We first met at a Labour students' conference about 18 years ago,


and it was through Brendan that I first met Jo.


I remember them coming round for dinner at the house


of my husband and I in London, and us visiting them on their boat,


first in Ladbroke Grove and then later in Wapping.


I remember worrying that I had drunk too much wine early in the evening


until I realised it was the boat that was


I remember talking with Jo about her future shortly


She was thinking about standing for Parliament, and spent a day


shadowing me in my Leeds West constituency, talking to


constituents about their problems, campaigning with party members


By the end of the day, a lot of people weren't sure


who the MP was and who was doing the shadowing!


Jo had away with people, a way of relating to people


from all walks of life, and she had a real way


Her main hesitation about a parliamentary career


She worried, as many of us do, about whether you can be a great MP


But when the opportunity came up to represent her home


seat of Batley and Spen, Jo felt a special responsibility


to step up and do what she could for the place where she was born,


grow up and went to school, the place that Jo called home.


Jo wanted to make the world fairer, more equal, more tolerant


We all have better instincts and deepest fears.


Jo appealed to our better instincts, our sense that, as she said


in her maiden speech, what we have in common is greater


On Friday morning, less than 24 hours after Jo was killed,


I sat in a coffee shop in Batley just a few minutes away


A woman came over to me and said she hadn't known Jo,


but that her death had made her want to be a bit


A better person, a better mother, a better daughter, a better wife.


It is ironic that, after travelling the world to some of the most


damaged, war-ravaged places in the world,


But she died doing the job she loved in the place that she loved,


representing the people that she loved.


Her mum and dad said to me that Jo wouldn't have changed a thing.


She lived the life that she wanted to live, and yet in her mum's words,


she had so much more that she could have done.


So it now falls on all of our shoulders, the woman I met


in the coffee shop in Batley, Jo's friends, MPs, all of us,


To combat and guard against hatred, intolerance and injustice.


To serve others with dignity and with love.


And that is the best way that we can remember Jo and all she stood for.


Batley and Spen will go on to elect a new MP,


And later in the programme, we'll play the full tributes


from Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, Conservative MP Andrew


And by the way, a charity fundraising appeal set up


in Jo Cox's memory has now raised more than ?1 million.


This Thursday, weeks of campaigning will come to an end as you decide


if Britain stays in or leaves the European Union.


For some, the decision is straight forward,


but what about those of you who are still undecided?


You've got two days to make up your mind - that's assuming


We've brought together one MP who wants you to vote to stay in,


and one who wants you to vote to leave, along with four


The MPs are going to make pitches to each of them,


and then our four voters will ask them questions.


For the Remain Campaign, we have the Labour MP


for Streatham Chuka Umunna and supporting the Leave Campaign


is the Conservative MP for Stratford on Avon, Nadhim Zahawi.


In the studio Rogers Gambiza, and Efosa Omorog-bay.


In Newcastle is Nan Pancoast, and in Dundee is Ellena Leslie.


Welcome all of you. OK. Who wants to go first? I don't mind. Off you go.


Thank you. I have got a three-and-a-half-year-old and two


19-year-olds, the same wife, I know what you are thinking. I want to


grow up in a country that is open, dynamic, outward looking, non


discrim nattry, a country that looks after its people, those on national


Living Wage, makes sure that they actually have the best chance of


doing well and increasing their wages as well as investing in


hospitals and schools. I think we can do that best by coming out of


the EU because we will trade with Europe before entering Parliament I


ran a business which bought companies across Europe. It was a


service business. 80% of our economy is service based. There has never


been a single market in Europe in service, yet we have done really,


really well. My issue is that the EU political project is one that is


destroying jobs and livelihoods, look at Greece and Spain, one in


every two young people is out of work. Each one of those statistics


is a tragedy. They're blighted by the EU and this sort of madness of


want to go create a single country, a single flag, a single budget and a


single currency. Many of the people who are telling you to vote remain


were saying we must go into the single currency otherwise our


economy would collapse. I'm saying let's come out. Let's trade with


Europe. We're going to do great trading with Europe. We buy more


Mercedes and washing machines than we sell them. We buy more from them


in goods. They will want us to trade. They won't want to cut us


off. One in every five German cars come to the UK. We can protect those


on national Living Wage. 77,000 people came in without a job. That's


discriminating against people from Africa, India, Pakistan, Australia,


South Africa, they can't come in because we can't control the people


coming in from Europe. If we take back control of our borders we can


have a much more positive immigration policy for the United


Kingdom. OK. So that's the Leave pitch. I'm going to hear from Chuka


Umunna in a moment. Eleanor a reaction to what he said? As you're


saying about the economy, it is always changing so I don't


understand how anyone can take what you say as factual other than like


guesswork and wishful thinking, but that goes to say on both sides. A


lot of it is guesswork because you can't forecast what's going to


happen in the economy in the future. A reaction before you get to ask


your questions. My main thing is the immigration part. I can understand


blocking people who want to come here to work against those who are


put here and cannot work, but that's the main issue here. How do we


control those borders? We will answer that in a second. For the


Remain campaign, Labour MP, Chuka Umunna. Well, look, think about all


the things that you usually hear politicians droning on about on


programmes like this whether it was the Government trebling tuition fees


over the last four to five years. Iain Duncan Smith imposing a bedroom


tax on people, the big arguments we have around the NHS, all of these


things, primarily and whatever you think about them, they are domestic


concerns. They are things that the Conservative Government has been


running. The EU has had nothing to do with that and in the last four to


five years, there are 121 Acts of Parliament and just four of those


were to exclusively implement European legislation. But where we


work together, we do so because we can achieve more together with our


countries than we can on our own. We amplify our influence and we deal


with the issues which are cross-border. Take the environment,


for example, we know that pollution knows no borders. Or the migration


crisis triggered by what has been happening in the Middle East, that


is affecting all of Europe. It is not something that will only affect


the UK. But above all, the reason that we see huge benefit from being


part of the European Union is because of our access to the single


market. And that gives us access to half a billion customers for British


businesses and that has seen three to four million jobs being linked to


that, but also the stuff you buy in the shops, 28% of the produce you


buy on high street shelves you get your daily paper, whatever it might


be, cheese, wine, chocolate, healthier things too, we don't have


to pay a tariff on those things when they come from the European Union


those 28% of products. If we weren't part of the single market there


would be a tariff. I'm not arguing that we can't trade with these


people if we leave, but the question is on what terms? And there is a


huge inequality of bargaining power. 44% of our exports go to them. If


you look at the other members of the European Union, 5% of their exports


come to us. There are bigger and important customer to us than we are


to them. I don't deny Roger that immigration is an issue and it poses


a challenge to society, but the idea that that will fall away if we leave


the European Union is nonsense. More people come here from outside the


European Union than from inside the European Union. And there are things


we can do to mitigate matters like in the labour market enforcing


minimum wage, but it is about having a big ambitious vision of what


Britain can do. Traditionally we punch our weight on the world stage.


We don't get kicked around by our European partners. We use it as a


way of ampifying our influence, you've grown up in a globally


connected world and for me it is about how do you succeed f you want


to go into business, it is by networking and the State needs to do


the same. Network with others who have our views and have our


challenges. All right, let's bring in all of you to ask your questions.


How does that affect immigrants who have started businesses in the past


five years and who vote out of the EU? Well, here in the UK, there are


EU citizens running businesses. They employ 1.5 million people here in


the UK. So that's a good thing for us and for our, all of those


businesses, can sell into the single market and of course, there are lots


of jobs connected to that. There is only 6% of our businesses that


actually export, you know, most of them in your local area don't do


that. But of course, businesses are not an island and if you look at a


lot of the bigger businesses which have many small businesses supplying


them with products and their employees will spend their money in


small businesses and for them exporting is a really important


thing whether it is Hitachi who makes trains, our car makers, Tech


UK, all the young new entrepreneur in Tech City, for them being able to


trade is so important and that's why they are pretty much all of the


business organisations representing small and bigger businesses want us


to stay in the European Union because it gives you guys


opportunities. You run your own business, don't you? What would you


say to this man who runs his small firm and wants to know what impact,


economic impact, there would be on the firm if Britain votes to leave


on Thursday? I think you will benefit. I think the economy will


become more dynamic. The question was asked earlier about, you know,


the world is an uncertain place. The economy, the world changes, China


could slow down, stuff could happen in America and elsewhere, you are


better off having a Government that can act quickly rather than 28


countries that can't agree. You seen with the refugee crisis, they


couldn't agree. It was a mess. It was a controversy. They have been


trying to sign a trade deal with South American countries since 1999.


We are in 2016, they haven't decidedment you know why? France


says no, I don't want the deal because of my farmers,


protectionist. Spain says that's wrong, don't do that. That's wrong,


but nothing happens. Chuka Umunna talked about food for example. The


EU places tariffs of 30% on food from Africa. It hurts developing


countries. If we were outside that, we can buy from those countries and


support them even more. So my view, my message to you is you're running


a bishtion only 60% Goldman Sachs, the JP Morgans want us to stay in


the EU because they have departments who can wade through the red tape


and make sure smaller competitors don't take over their business. For


small business and mat jort of small business actually support the Vote


Leave campaign. The big corporate businesses support the Stay camp.


The Federation of Small Business members are evenly balanced. 47%


wanted to stay in. 41% wanted to leave. What does your business do by


the way? Can I ask you both to answer more briefly otherwise we


will never get through the questions. What does your business


do? We are a music production company. We do films and movies. Let


me get a question from them. I'm going to ask you to be more brief in


your replies. Go ahead. I was just wondering, as just an


average Joe, what difference would staying or leaving actually do for


me or someone down the road? Don't be a barrister asked that. --


embarrassed to ask. We would be a more dynamic economy. What does that


mean in practical terms? There was a report from a German bank saying


that if we came out, British complete with outperform European


companies so there would be more jobs being crated here. Europe has


stagnated. Its growth is the slowest in the world other than Antarctica,


so Europe has been job destroying. People in Spain, young people like


yourself are out of work. If we are outside, we can trade with Europe.


There is a free trade area already which closed eyes and Istanbul,


which we will remain part of. -- which goes from Iceland to Istanbul.


We would become outward looking and truly dynamic and positive. I don't


know if you are out of work, Nine. What do you do? Yes, I am currently


out of work, unfortunately. What would you say to Nan? The first


thing people will feel the impact of is increased price of this --


prices. Vote leaves say we will trade but we will not be part of the


single market so things you buy in the shop which have been imported,


you will pay more for if they have been imported from the EU. There are


also pretty much every single major economic independent forecaster, the


biggest profile one is maybe the governor of the Bank of England, has


said that there will be a shock to the economy and usually when there


is a short-term shock at the very least youth unemployment gets hit


first. The governor has taught about other things, paying off a housing,


borrowing rates going up, but I think you said practically, what


will you feel, and I think it is that. What is your question? It is


surrounding immigration and this is directed at both of you. What plan


would you put in place to stem the flow of immigration to control the


issue around immigration, but to also provide the opportunity for


those coming into work and coming into better their lives? What plan


would you put in place? Briefly, in a nutshell. The leader of the Remain


campaign, Stuart Rose, who was head of M, said wages would go up our


national living which would go up. The question was about controlling


immigration. If we come out, we decide who comes in. Australia has a


point system and they decide what is right for their economy, how many


jobs we need, what sort of skills we need. If we stay in, there are


countries in Europe where the minimum wage is ?2 an hour. They are


coming in and actually hurting those on the lowest wages in our country.


So if you are looking for work and your on national living wage, your


job is at risk if we stay in Europe. If we come out, we control our


borders with a points -based system, that way we decide and we don't


like, we can change our government and have a different government set


it. That's my proposition. It is quite amusing to me because usually


when I am arguing with Nadhim Zahawi, he is telling you how great


the economy is the national minimum is enforced as a higher level, but


in terms of your question let's not forget there are 2 million Brits who


benefit from free movement so they are living and working in the


European Union as well. There is this idea that somehow because we


are part of free movement that comes with the EU, for none EU countries


it means that people who frankly looked like me and you are unfairly


discriminated against. That's rubbish. The rules that we have


applied to none EU countries have nothing to do with the EU. That is a


figment of Conservative government policy. Questions about controlling


immigration. We do control it in the sense that you have to show your


passport when you come in and out and our judgment is that on


balance... You can't have free movement of goods and services,


which brings so much to our economy, without having the free movement of


people and the judgment that we make is, on balance, there is a huge


benefit we get from that movement and does not outweigh some of the


challenges, and the judgment is, the benefits to outweigh the challenges


and there are things you can do about the challenges. Enforce the


national minimum wage, make sure that if people are taking out of our


security system, they are paying in, which they have to do for four


years. And we need to talk about not just the numbers coming in but how


do we integrate people when they are here? How do we support them to


learn English? I'm going to get Alan's question. Go for it. I'm a


university student. I was reading on the camera crew independent this


morning that a lot of the major higher education institutes are


worried and concerned about a lever vote. It was quoted at around ?7


billion comes from people in the EU. That is quite worrying as student,


losing that income, so what is your opinion on that and how will it


affect students? I used to be on the Business Select Committee in the


last Parliament. I was passionate about international students because


it is a great export for us. We make about ?8 billion and that is going


to rise to about 16 or 17 billion and nobody in the UK dislikes


international students coming to study at our best universities. I


think if we come out, we can take more international students, not


less, because we can control our immigration system. At the moment we


have 188,000 people who come into the UK and we can't do a thing about


it whatsoever because of free movement. I'm saying let's come out,


let's have a system that we control and then we can decide if we want


more international students enter our world beating universities.


That's the best way to be. Eleanor, we do have a system which we


control, which the government has set for immigration policy to have


people coming in the tens of thousands. And within that cap,


students, overseas students, who come here not only to study but


spend money, they come within that cap but that is what the


Conservative government has said it should do. I think is wrong. I think


overseas students should be taken out of that but the EU has got


nothing to do with that particular issue. In terms of universities, I


declare an interest- I studied under the EU schemes, the Rasmus exchange


programme, as a student and got a huge benefit and the knowledge of


another culture, understanding how the -- another country works. What


would happen if we lose access to that framework, nobody knows. People


watching this programme say, all the universities want us to stay in


Europe, of course they are going to say that because of that 3 billion


figure, but as is about more than that. It is about coming together


and collaborating with other minds and brains, which enables us to come


up with new ideas to produce new products for these big emerging


economies that they want to buy and that is why it is so important. I am


not naive enough to think that a five-minute speech our guests,


wonderful as they were, and the way they have answered your questions,


will necessarily help you make up your mind right now but has it


helped you? It has made it a lot clearer on which side I lean towards


more. What are you leaning towards? Right now staying in the EU but I


can see the points for out as well, especially being a business owner.


The points for leaving and for staying have been highlighted a bit


more but I am more to remain within the EU. Eleanor? I'm still


completely on the fence. I see the good points of each side but I also


see the negatives of each side. So come Thursday, do you think you will


have made that judgment call by then? I hope so. I'm definitely


going to vote so I'll probably be in the polling station and it will be


like, which one do I vote for? I'm really informed so I do know what


will happen, I think, with each vote, so it is just coming down to


it and weighing of all the options. Nan, what are you leaning towards?


Just from hearing today's arguments, there is a lot of negativity with


leaving, with the whole control, control, control, and it just seems


a bit daunting to side with someone or the campaign that is just so


negative. I don't know if that makes sense. Can I ask you briefly about


David Beckham? I don't know if you've heard the news today that he


has come out for the Remain campaign. Does it make any


difference to you when very famous... You are saying it does? I


have loads of friends that play football and the prospect of playing


internationally is something they aspire to and there are rules in


place now for them to be able to play internationally right now and


it is something that they would like to remain. We don't know what that


would be like if we leave. What difference does it make to your


campaign when you hear that David Beckham is on your side? For me, I


think it's a brilliant thing but for me, it's far more important but


we've got four expert opinions here and three out of four of these guys


want to stay in at the moment and Eleanor, keep the faith. I think we


can bring you our way. Nadhim Zahawi, how do you react to David


Beckham being on the opposing camp to you? I have great respect him and


anyone else who takes a view either way. Sol Campbell has out for Vote


Leave, John Barnes has come out already. Belittles our great


inventors - James Dyson, the great manufacturer and exporter. -- but


look at our great inventors. JCB, 6000 employees making the best


diggers of the world, they have both come out saying we are better off


leaving, we will be more dynamic and will sell more to the world and be a


stronger economy and more investment in our skill set. I did the


apprenticeship job for my Prime Minister and I think it would be


much better if we come out and it would allow people to invest more in


the skills in the UK and sell to the world. Thank you very much. Only 48


more hours to go. Thank you for coming on the programme.


Still to come: China's controversial dog eating festival begins.


Thousands of animals are expected to be killed.


We investigate why, despite widespread opposition,


We'll talk to those campaigning against it.


And the little understood trade deal between the EU and the US which is


being negotiated right now, which some say could endanger the NHS. We


will tell you all you need to know about it.


Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.


With just two days of campaigning left before the EU referendum,


there's been a high-profile celebrity endorsement this morning.


The former England captain David Beckham says he'll be


He says after playing in Madrid, Paris and Milan,


Europe gave his family the opportunity to enjoy "unique


Beckham's former England teammate Sol Campbell has regularly been


Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned by his own officials four years ago


that his immigration target was impossible while inside the EU -


that's according to the PM's former director of strategy.


Steve Hilton - who's backing the Vote Leave campaign


in the EU referendum - claims Mr Cameron was warned


"explicitly and directly" that EU free movement rules meant net


migration could not be reduced below the target


Downing Street says it doesn't recognise the story.


Measures to tighten gun controls following the attack at a gay


nightclub in Florida in which 49 people were killed have been


Four proposals were brought before the Senate.


But it rejected plans to tighten gun controls, including the restriction


of weapons sales to people on terrorism watch lists.


Senators disagreed about how to prevent more attacks


A British man accused of trying to assassinate Donald Trump has


Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea to a charge


Investigators say he told them he drove to a rally held


by the Republican presidential candidate on Saturday


That's a summary of the latest BBC News.


And the sport now. Here is Sally live in Paris.


A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over Russia sees them through to the last


16 of the European Championship - and they've done so as


It's only the second time Wales have qualified for the latter stages of


England are also through but it was a disappointing goalless


Roy Hodgson's side finished second in group B.


Northen Ireland will be hoping to follow England and Wales


into the last 16 but they face a tough task against world


champions Germany here in Paris this afternoon.


England's cricketers are in action today against Sri Lanka in the first


one-day international of the five-match series.


England's women will also play their first one-day


international against Pakistan today after rain at Leicester yesterday.


More sport coming up in the next half-hour. See you then.


Thank you very much. It was perhaps the most poignant


and moving moment the House of Commons has ever seen -


MPs were recalled to Parliament yesterday to pay tribute


to the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox. Throughout the programme this


morning, we're playing you some Let me begin by saying


again Jo's own words. "Who can blame desperate parents


for wanting to escape the horror that their


families are experiencing? "Children are being killed


on their way to school. "One in three children have grown up


knowing nothing but fear and war. "Those children have been exposed


to things no child should ever witness, and I know that


I would risk life and limb to get my two precious babies out


of that hellhole." When Jo spoke, Mr Speaker, we


all listened. Because the principle she drew


on in that speech and in life is the simple idea that


we have more in common Her words demonstrate that


if we choose, we do not always have to see ourselves as different


from those far away. We all listened because her words


spoke to each and every one of us. Now, to know Jo, even a little bit,


was to understand how proud she was in her family, and to hear


her relish her role as a mum. Many of her friends have spoken


of that joy, that warmth, She had a way of talking,


not just about herself, her own ideas, but always


what we could do together. Jo took on the toughest of problems,


the most forgotten causes, and fought campaigns


that we could all feel a part of, Whether Darfur or the DRC,


Jo knew how easily our global responsibilities fade from view


without conscious activism. As Jo herself wrote,


this active internationalist It has been and is still contested


across the political spectrum. So Jo wrote about a fight not just


for one country, one people or one cause,


but a worldview that bestowed on each of us rights, and on all


of us the responsibility to protect. This is especially true in relation


to her activism in pursuit Faced with the great joy and great


risk of motherhood, women So when the world could not find


the wherewithal to meet the Millennium Development Goal


to cut maternal mortality, Jo took on this huge challenge


and made global leaders sit up Now, Jo didn't just


believe that women's She was a feminist whose activism


saved women's lives and whose political skill got women elected


to this House. Many in this place will have


never seen the quiet, careful work of Jo and her


colleagues at the Labour Women's Network to give women the knowledge


and the networks to take She did it not by hectoring


or lecturing, but by believing in the goodness of others,


and as Jo's friend and mine, Kirsty McNeill, has written,


half holding you upright, That was what it meant to have Jo's


arm around your shoulder, and how we all long for those arms


around our shoulder today. Mr Speaker, those words from Jo's


maiden speech must therefore truly We are far more united and have far


more in common with each other Jo's vision of our country,


explained in that speech she made, is one we know


in our hearts to be true. It's not where you come


from that matters. It's the compassion and love


in your heart. You might be proud


of your home town, as Jo was, but you know


that compassion doesn't And here's another


thing that doesn't end. She gave love to us all,


and that can never be lost. We may feel lost today,


Mr Speaker, but inside us all, And we'll keep playing you some


of those tributes throughout Thousands of dogs will be


slaughtered at an annual dog-eating festival which has begun


in South West China. That's despite a petition signed


by 11 million people handed in to Beijing by celebrities


and campaigners that calls Here's a short film about how


the festival began Some of the images we're


going to show over the next ten You may not want young children to


see them. The lychee and dog meat festival,


known as the Yulin festival, is an annual event where roughly


10,000 to 15,000 dogs and cats It takes place this week


in the city of Yulin. That's in a largely rural


and poor region of China. The Chinese tradition of eating dog


meat dates back around 500 years, and is believed to ward off


the heat of summer. Around 10 to 20 million dogs


are killed for their meat each year This festival began in 2010


to celebrate the summer solstice. While slaughtering dogs is common


in China, the festival is seen to represent the cruelty


of the largely unregulated industry. Some of the animals


killed are stolen pets, still wearing their collars


as they die. Others are sent to the festival


in small cages without food or water, having travelled


hundreds of miles. The animals tend to be


slaughtered whilst still alive. Some restaurant owners


claim their adrenaline-rich We are here asking you to


stop the cruelty. While there is no law in the UK


saying you can't eat a cat or dog, People in Western countries see dogs


as their pets. It's different in China,


where they're not viewed However, it's not the only country


where people eat these Jill Robinson, founder


of Animals Asia Foundation. Rebecca Pow, Conservative MP


and Chair of the Animal Welfare And Andrea Gung, founder


of the Dou Dou Project that aims to change people's perceptions


about dogs in Yulin. Andrea tell us how you're trying to


do that? I have been to Yulin many times because I really want to end


the dog meat trade. Not just the dog meat festival because what we have


to understand in Yulin people eat dogs year round, not just on one


day. On this day, the dog meat pestively they just eat more dogs.


So after I have been there many times I talked to a lot of local


people. I realised to totally end this practise, we just have to


change people's mindset. No consumption, no killing. So that's


what I decided we're going to reach out to the community throughout the


events programme toe educate people to make them -- to educate people.


To look at dogs as a cam pannian and educate them and teach them how


valuable dogs are for human beings Peter, the dog eating industry, the


culture in China goes back hundreds of years. I wonder how long do you


predict it will take to stop the Yulin Festival, if ever? Well, Jill


would be best to talk about this. I think it will happen. I think


because there is a huge amount of public shock at what is happening,


to do with the cruelty really. It is how the animal is dispatched and I'm


not suggesting that we do things better here and I'm not criticising


if you want to call it culture, but it is a disastrous process and very


horrible and it must stop, but I think Jill will be better... Go


ahead Jill. The issue in Yulin, it is actually part of a problem


country wide. I think the community at large wants dog eat to go end.


What they are recognising now these are dogs stolen from the streets and


from people's loving homes. It is become ago social disharmony issue


and it is becoming a public health issue because many of the dogs are


poisoned so the diseased daushtion the to beingic meat is entering the


food chain in China. More people are beginning to understand that


prospective as well. From a politician's point of view what, are


you doing about this, Rebecca? It is difficult for one Government or


country to pronounce that they don't like what another country eats. So


one has to tread carefully with this. We can't say, "We don't like


you eating dog meat." They eat guinea pigs in South America. It is


not something we would do in this country because dogs are pets. It is


a cultural change. In our Government, debates have been held


in Parliament on this. There was one back in November. Actually calling


for a ban, but our minister, you know, promised he will write to


governments, he would speak to them, we will do the softly softly


approach, but there is leverage there and I think one of the big


levers is encouraging change, but the health aspect because rabies is


a big issue and the incidents of rabies in Yulin province is the


highest in China and it is believed it is connected with eating dogs


which have got rabies. One in ten dogs are not vaccinated for rabies


and there is a risk of catching it from the slaughter houses and from


the butchering and from eating it. There is no regime to control that.


It contravenes the World Health Organization, you know, standards


that would, I suggest, be a good way that we can start to influence aside


from the ghastly things they do in slaughter houses, we need to


encourage adoption of better methods and standards. How are some of the


animals killed for this festival? Oh goodness. Well, they are beaten over


the heads. They have knives put through their jugulars. They are


sometimes put fully conscious into boiling water to strip the fur from


their bodies. So the cruelty is rife across the country. But again, I


think, you know, I think the point is so many local groups now in


China, 150 local groups, I was at a conference last week in China, where


local groups, where the Government officials, where the police were


coming along just talking about the issues and how they can, how they


can address the problem of dog ownership management in China. So


for example, the police are lowering the registration for people to have


dogs. They're lowering the prices of vaccinations and they are making it


easier for people to have dogs in community and they are slowly,


slowly being able to see that dogs have a benefit in society. We have


adopt a dog programme which is animal therapy across four provinces


in the country. Where you know people recognise the good that dogs


bring into the community. So it is a shift as Rebecca was saying of


public perception as well. Peter, in terms of you supporting this


campaign, what is it that's motivating you? My care for animal


welfare. I mean, I think it is worth pointing out that there is, as Jill


has said, a growing concern for the lives of animals in China and I


think we should, we have to resist taking a powerful position because


of the media attention and the horrible images that you see on


television and on the internet and you also see a whole variety of


small groups that come up waving a very powerful banner which creates a


very cultural problem dealing with this serious problem and I, which is


why I support what the big charities do and Animals Asia which is to work


from within and to spread the vital concept of animal welfare and care


for our companions and dogs are central to that will point of view.


They are our best friends and they deserve better as indeed all animals


deserve better from humans on this planet.


Andrea, a final thought from you in terms of you trying to change


people's perceptions of dogs. How much success do you think you're


having? Yes, I will just come back to your other question, is it


helpful? Yes, I have to act. It is very, very helpful and how soon


you're asking? Not very long because what happened in China is, you must


know China has this one child policy in the last 30 years. Every family


can only have one child. Now, this one child generation are in their


30s now. Who do they grow up with? They have no siblings so they grow


up with pets, cats, dogs, bunnies and turtles. They love their pets as


much as we do. So they hate this dog meat trade as much as we do. Other


young people they loss their pets to the dog meat trade and they become


die hard activists to change it. Now they are in their 30s and they work


for the Government and they work for the media and they are internet


savvy and so they spread a message like wildfire. I'm hopeful in young


generation will end this cruel trade in the near future. Thank you very


much. I'm going to leave it there. Thank


you for coming on the programme. It is time for the weather. Here is


Carol. Well, today we have got quite a bit of cloud across our shores.


You can see where it has broken and some of us are seeing lovely


sunshine and feeling warm too in the sunshine today, but we have showers


across Western Scotland and some in Northern Ireland. Here it is also


breezy. Dlu the day, a bit more cloud will develop. We will still


hang on to sunny spells, but you might just see the odd shower coming


out for example in the south-west. And so quite a bit of drizzle across


the Channel Islands. Top temperature 22 Celsius. Through this evening and


overnight, well, once again, we're going to see some cloud build. We


will start to see rain coming in across south-west England, fringing


in through parts of Wales and getting up to the Midlands and down


towards Hampshire. The showers persist across the north-west, but


it won't be a particularly cold night. Tomorrow the rain continues


to advance into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire and another band comes


up behind it. Muggy in the South East and still showery across the


north-west. Our top story today:


With only two days to go until the EU referendum,


it's making your mind up time. David Beckham has -


he says he's backing Remain. David Cameron's under more


fire over immigration. This morning, two politicians have


been making a last-ditch pitch to you about why you should


vote to leave or remain. We'll still trade but we'll trade


with the rest of the world, we'll have a dynamic economy, more jobs,


more investment in schools and hospitals and in skills in our


country. Will become outward looking and truly dynamic and positive.


Every single major independent economic forecaster, the biggest


profile one as the Bank of England, have said that there will be a shock


to the economy and usually when there is a short-term shock, at the


very least, youth unemployment gets hit first. Also in the programme:


England and Wales are through but in very different ways. Yes, an


incredible performance from Wales here in France yesterday, beating


Russia 3-0. England also through but they could only manage a goalless


draw with Slovakia. And what is TTIP and should you be worried about it?


A number of you got in touch with us to ask us to look into it, so we


have. So it's basically a trade agreement between the US and the EU.


It's not just a trade deal, it's an investment deal as well. It means


corporations have a huge amount of say. So you two guys are in the same


place? No, we are in total different places. I think it is a good thing,


he doesn't. Here's Joanna with a summary


of today's news. With just two days of campaigning


left before the EU referendum, there's been a high profile


celebrity endorsement this morning. The former England captain


David Beckham says he'll be He says after playing


in Madrid, Paris and Milan - Europe gave his family


the opportunity to enjoy "unique Beckham's former England team mate


Sol Campbell has regularly been Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned


by his own officials four years ago that his immigration target


was impossible while inside the EU - that's according to the PM's former


director of strategy. Steve Hilton - who's backing


the Vote Leave campaign in the EU referendum -


claims Mr Cameron was warned "explicitly and directly" that EU


free movement rules meant net immigration could not be cut


below 100,000 a year. Downing Street says it doesn't


recognise the story. Measures to tighten gun controls


following the attack at a gay nightclub in Florida in which 49


people were killed have been Four proposals were brought


before the Senate. But it rejected plans


to tighten gun controls, including the restriction of weapons


sales to people on Senators disagreed about how


to prevent more attacks Sir Cliff Richard has said


the stress of being publicly named as a suspect of sexual crimes


that he did not commit was so severe The singer has recently been told


the allegations will not be pursued. He's told the Daily Mail he's been


left physically and emotionally exhausted by a two-year ordeal that


began when South Yorkshire Police raided his home after


an apparent tip-off. That's a summary of


the latest BBC News. Thanks to those of you who got in


touch about the conversation a few minutes ago about the dog festival.


Sam has e-mailed to say, thank you for speaking about this horror.


Fiona tweets, it has to stop, pets rounded apple, boiled alive for


food, it is hideous. And late in e-mail says it is terribly cruel and


inhumane and many of those animals are stolen pet. Time for the sport


now and here is Sally in Paris. Lots to talk about this morning. A


fantastic win last night for Wales against Russia. A 3-0 victory for


them. England are also through to the next round but they could only


manage a goalless draw against Slovakia but I think there is a good


game in England. This team have a better performance in them. Maybe


we'll see it. But now it's time to look


forward to - hopefully, fingers crossed - another


home nation making it Northern Ireland won't


have it easy, though. They're up against world champions


Germany here in Paris later. And maybe they have a secret weapon


at the Parc des Princes. Katie Gornall is there,


looking ahead to their chances. Northern Ireland in a very good


position here ahead of this game with Germany. They know that point


against the world champions would definitely see them through to the


last 16 and even the three points they already have maybe enough for


them to progress if the results go their way. Will have to wait to see


other permutations play out but there are sure to be a few nerves


when the players walked out of this tunnel later, alongside the world


champions. But if they are looking for a good omen, they may have found


it here. Let me introduce you to Jonathan, the head groundsman, and


also from Northern Ireland. How special is it for you to have


Northern Ireland playing at this grand? It's like a dream come true


for me. When I was riveted three years ago I knew the Euros would be


here in France but never in my wildest dreams did I think that


Northern Ireland would qualify for euros. But honestly we've qualified


for the first time and when the draw took place for Northern Ireland to


come out and play here, it was another level. It was like a dream


come true for me and I would say it is the highlight of my career.


You've had your work a doubt for you over the last few days. Yes, it's


been a bit disappointing. We were looking forward to the tournament


and last year we had record temperature is a 48 degrees of the


stadium so we were worried about about the heat stress on the grass


and it has completely turned full circle and the last six weeks it has


just been nonstop rain here in Paris and it has made it very difficult


for us. From here the pitch looks fantastic. With you be able to relax


at any point when the game is going on and watch and support Northern


Ireland? Unfortunately, I'm a football fanatic and I love football


but when the players are playing on your pitch, it is a nervous time for


me and the players. Once the final whistle goes, I can finally relax,


which is a little bit hard, but as a football fan, obviously, I enjoy the


occasion like the rest of the fans and hopefully get a win for Northern


Ireland. Presumably your message to the players, known the slide


celebrations. Maybe if Northern Ireland score, I'll let it go! -- no


me slide celebrations. If they are able to get a result against their


opponents, they might be able to make history.


Tomorrow, the Republic of Ireland play Italy and their fans have been


winning admirers all over France - and perhaps this is why...


A group of them on a train, signing a lullabye to a baby.


Do you like that bit at the end where they all go to Bob? I know


we've talked a lot about the behaviour of fans here but I think


it is important to note that they have all been fantastic. -- where


they go two. More from Sally in Paris later. A


memorial fund set up in honour of the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox has


raised more than ?1 million in three days. The target is 1.5 million.


They are definitely going to reach that target, aren't they? Absolutely


remarkable. Yesterday MPs returned to the House


of Commons to pay tribute to her. They all wore a white


rose, the symbol of A white rose and a red rose


were placed in her usual place Her husband Brendan


and their two children, who are five and three,


were in the public gallery, along with her parents Jean and Gordon,


sister Kim and other family members. During the programme today we're


playing you some of the most poignant speeches in full -


and at times you'll see politicians looking up at the public gallery


to watch her family's reaction. The Conservative MP and former


International Development Minister Andrew Mitchell first met


Jo Cox ten years ago, marching against injustice


in Sudan and then staying with her in the region,


where she was working for Oxfam. They went on to form a cross-party


all-parliamentary group on Syria. Mr Speaker, today, we mourn


the terrible loss of our friend and colleague Jo, so tragically


murdered as she went about her constituency


duties last Thursday. The life has been taken


of a truly exceptional woman, whose goodness and passion,


dedication to humanitarian values, I knew her as a friend,


but how unbearable must it be for those who mourn her


as a daughter, sister, husband, and above all,


as their beloved mum, who they used to visit for tea each


week in Portcullis House. I first met Jo ten years ago


in London when we marched And on two visits to Al-Fashir


in Darfur, where she helped develop a central humanitarian


role for Oxfam. The Leader of the Opposition


as he then was and I stayed there with her and other


humanitarian workers, and witnessed her crucial role


for Oxfam in supporting women and children, and securing water


for thousands of refugees I wear it still to ensure


that we remember the desperate people caught up in what


President Bush rightly And it is amongst her many friends


and colleagues in the international humanitarian and development family


all around the world, of which she was such a respected


and experienced member, that she will be mourned


and remembered as a staunch friend of the most desperate and deprived


in our world, and as a campaigner When she entered this House just 13


short months ago, she rapidly used her deep knowledge


to champion the dispossessed. She was Labour to her fingertips,


but restlessly dismissive of party political manoeuvring,


which she saw as a Making common cause with a crusty


old Tory, she and I became co-chairs Her energy and effectiveness


were an inspiration. We invited ourselves to tea


with the Russian ambassador With clever charm but steely


determination, this five-foot bundle of old-fashioned Yorkshire common


sense dressed him down for his country's cruelty


and cynicism in Syria. I do not believe the Russian


ambassador will easily Mr Speaker, I think there are many


things Jo would want us I do not believe she would want this


vile and unspeakable act to change the open and accessible relationship


we enjoy with our constituents. All of us take the advice


of our local police in protecting Thankfully, the record shows these


attacks are as infrequent Secondly, Jo would want us in this


House to redouble our efforts to resolve the greatest


catastrophe of our age. The crisis in Syria,


where the lives of more than 11 million people have been


ruined while the international community has shown


itself disorganised, But Mr Speaker, I mourn Jo today


as a friend and as a colleague. But most of all, I mourn


for her as a mother whose two gorgeous children will now have


to chart the shoals and eddies of life without the love


and support of their Andrew Mitchell, Conservative MP.


David Beckham has come out in support of remaining in the European


Union and our political Guru Norman Smith can tell us more to it what


does he say in his statement? Just before we get to that, on the


cusp of a referendum you might think David Cameron be talking about the


economy but he is tweeting about David Beckham, so the PM says,


"David Beckham is clear, we should be facing the problems of the world


together and not alone". This after David Beckham issued a statement


saying he has played for clubs in lots of different parts of Europe


and Milan and with lots of international stars and what that


has taught him is that you are better working together with other


people. His statement here... Let me read you the nub of it. He says, "We


live in a vibrant and connected world where together as a people we


are strong. For our children and their children, we should be facing


the world together and not alone". Downing Street obviously utterly


delighted because there are celebrities and, hey, there are


celebrities and David Beckham is, hey, a celebrity. How much impact it


will have in the real world? I don't know. Sometime celebrities can


backfire. You may remember when Kenny Everett came out to back Mrs


Thatcher and made a rather unfortunate speech about Michael


foot, which was regarded as a disaster. Clint Eastwood was out


backing Mitt Romney in the last US presidential election and he ended


up rambling around stage talking to a chair, I kid you not. So these


things can backfire. At a more mundane level, the ordinary


referendum campaign goes on. The most striking thing today is Steve


Hilton, Mr Cameron's former head of policy, formerly a close friend,


laying into the PM again over immigration, saying that the PM was


apparently warned in 2012 by his own officials that there was no chance,


zilch chance, of being able to meet his pledge of getting net migration


down to the tens of thousands as long as we remained in the EU. I can


tell you in the past few minutes, just talking to one figure in


government, they are saying they've been through all the papers and can


find no record of such a meeting. Indeed they say that at the time, Mr


Cameron was apparently being told that getting net migration down to


the tens of thousands was perfectly achievable. So Morove and argy-bargy


over immigration, which we are going to get in these last couple of days.


Thanks, Norman. Next this morning,


what is TTIP and why It's a subject that many of you have


asked us to look into. It stands for the Transatlantic


Trade and Investment Partnership. It sounds very dull,


but many of you are worried that it could lead to privatisation


of the NHS and an erosion of workers' rights, along


with lower standards on food Our reporter Catrin Nye


has been investigating and hopefully explains


TTIP simply and clearly. It's very early in the morning


and I'm on the Underground in London with an activist


who is very anti-TTIP. We're going to do some


work on the Tube. So, these signs that


are going in the empty spaces on the Tubes are basically meant


to imitate the Tube signs that already exist, but with


anti-TTIP messages. This man and other campaigners say


that TTIP threatens food safety, the NHS, democracy


and workers' rights. But those that are for TTIP say it


will mean more jobs, and more things much cheaper


for you, the customer. Here's the background so you can


make your own mind up. TTIP stands for the Transatlantic


Trade and Investment Partnership. And as you may have guessed,


it's pronounced tee-tip. Negotiated in secret,


it's a deal to cut import and export taxes and regulatory barriers


to trade between the US and EU countries, making it easier


for companies on either side Industries it will affect


include pharmaceuticals, cars, energy, finance,


chemicals, clothing A deal that could add as much


as ?100 billion to the EU economy, ?80 billion to the US economy


and as much as ?85 billion Two million extra jobs,


more choice and lower prices The biggest bilateral


trade deal in history. As you see other markets like China


and Asia beginning to develop and Africa, we've got to make sure


that our businesses can compete, because at least in


the United States, 95% of the world's markets are outside


of our borders. TTIP is especially unpopular in


Germany. Thousands protested


when Obama came to visit. The protesters and other critics say


the deal would favour big business and lower standards on products,


on safety and on the environment. France has expressed serious


concerns about TTIP as it stands, As it stands, we too,


would reject TTIP and As well as the London Underground,


anti-TTIP protesters are in Leeds It is a massive handover of power


to corporations from governments. There are no problems in trade


between the EU and the US It is one of the healthiest


trade routes there is. And if TTIP was just about trade,


reducing tariffs and breaking down trade barriers,


I don't think many people The I in TTIP stands for investment,


and the investment chapter is what really gives corporations


the power and takes it away But I've also invited along


Allie Rennison from the Institute Trade liberalisation has a very good


track record of bringing down prices for consumers,


making things cheaper to access, giving consumers more quality,


a better variety of goods And so at the end of the day it


makes it cheaper to enjoy And currently she is doing a good


job of trying to take over It's basically a trade agreement


between the US and the EU. It means that corporations


have a huge amount of say. So you two guys are in


the same place? No, we're in totally


different places. Many people, like this man,


hadn't heard of TTIP. The public interest


and awareness is increasing. Have you heard about TTIP,


the trade deal we're brokering There are some key debates


when talking about TTIP. It just seems very


undemocratic to me. The first is focused


on the inclusion in the deal of another acronym, ISDS,


which in stands for Investor This procedure would allow companies


to sue foreign governments over claims of unfair treatment,


and be entitled to compensation. If you think of an example recently


where the Australian government attempted to introduce plain


packaging on cigarettes. Philip Morris, the makers


of Marlborough, decided to sue the Australian government over this,


and failed on a technicality, but that type of case would be


repeated in the future, and it will curtail our Government's


ability to protect health, the environment and food safety


and financial regulations. What it is about is enforcing


international law. It's ensuring that firms


can't be discriminated That's the nice version,


but tobacco companies suing governments for trying to protect


the health of their citizens, But if we look at what they're suing


for, they're suing for the recovery of their assets, they're not suing


to change the decision. It's a net balance


effect, basically. You take the risk as a government


that potentially you might be sued by a firm under a very limited set


of circumstances, but the rate of return that you get on that


company investment in the country outweighs substantially any


of the risks that you take by having If you put your e-mail address down,


we'll send you more information about how you can get more involved


in the campaign. You're saying you don't


know too much about it, If TTIP is brought in,


they can more or less sue the NHS. In the UK, controversy


around ISDS has focused I think it will encourage


the privatisation of the NHS. What TTIP does is it


locks out liberalisation. So if something has been privatised,


it's going to be very difficult and very expensive for a future


government to take it back in house. If you look at all the trade


agreements that have gone before, there are always very clear


provisions that say the way that public services are organised always


remains a priority and a choice So there is no way that TTIP


is going to forcibly They have got your


interests at heart? Trade, dependence upon each other


for positive reasons, The other thing your stall


is covered in are signs The thing we really


have a problem with is issues In the European Union,


there are over 1300 chemicals banned In America, that list


is only 11 strong. They want to harmonise this,


and we are concerned that this will introduce potentially dangerous


chemicals into our cosmetics. There are plenty of areas,


the examples in chemicals where standards are so different


that there is going to be no process on changes to existing standards,


but what this is about, because you have a lot


of companies that trade between the EU and the US,


they are going to be impacted by differences


in regulation going forward, so a lot of what TTIP in that area


is doing is about joint If we leave the EU,


this is done away with, we don't need to worry


about it any more? I don't think leaving the EU


is the solution to this problem, because those in charge


of the argument to leave are very keen on negotiating a similar deal


between the UK and the US, so I think we'll be out


of the frying pan and into the fire. The pro side say TTIP means stronger


economies both here and in the US, The antis say it means


lower product standards, companies suing governments


and a threat to the NHS. So many of you have got in touch


to ask about TTIP and what it means Scott Smith who is in Leeds


and Ewan McFadyen who is in Glasgow. Here in the studio to answer some


of their questions is Dr Dennis Novy He was the advisor to a House


of Lords inquiry into TTIP in 2013 Explain to our audience why you say


you're neutral on issue of TTIP? I'm abacademic who works in


international trade. I've looked into the detail a lot and I have


been to a lot of public events on this and I have come to the


conclusion on balance this is probably a good thing for the UK


economy. OK. Right. Scott, welcome. What would you like to ask Dennis?


What the implications are for the privatisation of the NHS are if we


were to implement TTIP? This is a very good question. To cut it short,


this agreement has nothing to do with the NHS. A lot of people are


concerned about the privatisation of the NHS and I think rightly so in my


view, but this is all down to what the Government decides and what


Parliament decides in Westminster. They can privatise or not privatise


the NHS. The European Union to this day, has almost nothing to do with


the NHS and by extension, any trade agreement that the European Union


agrees or may agree at some point has nothing to do with it. This


issue has come in because it has worked as a political weapon for


campaigners to scare people into believing that somehow this might


lead it a privatisation of the NHS, but there is no connection there.


Scott, do you accept that? Yes, Scott, yes? What I've read is that


it there could be loopholes and corporations could find loopholes in


the agreement which could mean that they could end up investing or suing


if they weren't able to. If the Government, if Parliament decides to


privatise the NHS or parts of the NHS then they can give out a


contract to a private company. That could be a British company. British


companies already, private companies already provide services for the


NHS? Because of the single market other companies in the European


Union can do the same. So fraench company can do the same. If there is


this trade agreement with the United States, then a company in the United


States could bid to provide services for the NHS. If the Government


decides to renationalise that particular part of the NHS, then


they would have to pay compensation to any company. So this is not


specific to the United States. This is already true even if nothing


happens with foreign companies in this context whatsoever. It could


have to pay compensation to a British company right now?


Absolutely of the that's already the law. What do you think of that then,


Scott? That's reassured me a bit. I don't have much confidence in the


current Government. But a future Government, it is up to a future


Government. Ewan. Hello. Go ahead. The NHS is an important concern, but


it is the tip of the iceberg. My concern is with food standards,


water services, all kinds of problems. All kinds of concerns. I


have seen seen the standards of food in America, GM crops, unsafe water,


my concerns are that these standards would come into the EU, come into


the UK and public service, public health would suffer? OK. Right, so


food standards is one of those really difficult issues. This is in


the negotiations. The European Union is negotiating with the United


States at the moment and standards for some products, food products


differ, this is where the two parties are trying to come to some


kind of compromise. This is a really difficult issue. Food is always an


international trade, a difficult issue. The United States are


exasperated with the pros is of food standards in the European Union


because the scientific evidence that the European Union itself provides


is commonly rejected by politicians. This is very difficult to understand


for outsiders coming from other countries. And this is one of the


issues where those two partners will have to find some agreement. It is a


difficult one. In terms of the deal being agreed,


you would say sooner or not soon? Not soon. They have been negotiating


since 2013. Nothing is going to happen any time soon because of the


presidential cycle in the United States. Next year we have elections


in France and Germany. Typically these things can take seven or eight


years, so maybe 2020. Scott and Ewan, thank you very much for your


time and your questions. And thank you very much, doctor, for coming on


the programme. It is time for the latest news


headlines. Here is Joanna. With just two days of campaigning


left before the EU referendum, there's been a high profile


celebrity endorsement this morning. The former England captain


David Beckham says he'll be He says after playing


in Madrid, Paris and Milan, Beckham's former England team mate


Sol Campbell has regularly been Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned


by his own officials four years ago that his immigration target


was impossible while inside the EU - that's according to the PM's former


director of strategy. Steve Hilton - who's backing


the Vote Leave campaign in the EU referendum -


claims Mr Cameron was warned "explicitly and directly" that EU


free movement rules meant net immigration could not be cut


below 100,000 a year. Downing Street says it doesn't


recognise the story. A British man accused of trying


to assassinate Donald Trump has Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea


to a charge of committing Investigators say he told them


he drove to a rally held by the Republican presidential


candidate on Saturday Now back to Victoria.


And the sport now. Here is Sally in Paris.


Thanks, Victoria. A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over


Russia sees them through to the last 16 of the European Championship -


and they've done so as A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over


Russia sees them through to the last It's only the second time Wales have


qualified for the latter stages of England are also through but it was


a disappointing goalless Roy Hodgson's side finished second


in group B. Northern Ireland will be hoping


to follow England and Wales into the last 16 but they face


a tough task against world champions Germany here


in Paris this afternoon. England's cricketers are in action


today against Sri Lanka in the first one-day international


of the five-match series. England's women will also


play their first one-day international against Pakistan today


after rain at Leicester yesterday. That's all the sport. Back to you,


Victoria. Thank you.


In an exclusive interview, a former aide to George Galloway tells this


programme she's "in shock" after accepting a five-figure sum


in damages from the ex-MP and former Respect Party leader over claims


she conspired to run a dirty tricks campaign against him.


It was a long and complex legal battle which started in 2012,


when George Galloway made accusations that she was


incompetent, slept with her lover in his house while he was away


and used her connections with a police officer


to help leak false to try and ruin his reputation.


Not only did she lose her job, but Aisha Ali-Khan tells


us her reputation and personal life were left in tatters


in what she describes as the "most difficult period".


George Galloway has now made a payment of five figures for damages


for those defamatory comments, and agreed to pay a further five figure


sum for the legal costs. Aisha Ali-Khan begins by telling me how


she reacted to those initial claims. Officer, what he was saying has


ready been picked up and reported upon in all the newspapers. That you


were a spy, effectively. Yes, this was back in 2012 and back then it


was reported in all the newspapers, internationally as well. It was


absolutely crazy, the level of attention that it got. Not


surprising because he was sitting MP at the time. But it wasn't just that


he said you were some kind of undercover agent but also, he was


spreading false information about you, that you were promiscuous? Yes,


and I think for a Muslim woman who has worked in the local community


for many years... I've taught in predominantly Muslim schools, led


campaigns of disability rights, I've tried to highlight issues on


domestic violence and child sexual abuse, so I was all ready very


active within the communities and had a very good reputation within


the community, which, unfortunately, because of what happened in 2012,


was now being damaged. Why do you think he was doing this? It's


difficult to say. I can give a general opinion. I think it is


difficult when you are somebody who is used to getting your own way...


And you had had a falling out, you were his Parliamentary aide. In the


end, you say you were having to do an Parliamentary duties and he


dismissed you, he sacked you. Yes. -- un-Parliamentary duties. He


sacked me for gross misconduct after he sent me my -- after he received


my e-mail is that were hacked from my e-mail account. I don't know how


he managed to get those e-mails and someone who themselves was hacked


and paid out quite handsomely, it is quite surprising that he would then


inflict the same level of trauma and feelings of being violated on


somebody else. In terms of this libel fight that you've been having


with him over the last three years, you have won. I know, thank you. How


do you feel about that? I can see how you feel. I think I'm a little


bit in shock. It still hasn't sunk in yet properly. I have had the most


amazing response from everyone, particularly because for the last 18


months or so, before Mark got involved and agreed to represent me,


I ran the case by myself. It is one of the most difficult periods of my


life, not knowing anything about defamation law, not knowing anything


on how the court system works. I had to learn everything and I had to


skill myself up, so it's been a very, very unbelievable outcome.


I'll bring in mark in just a moment but I want to ask you... You've


received a public apology from George Galloway, you've received


undisclosed libel damages, we're told five figures, he also has to


pay the legal costs as well... What is most important to you out of all


that? I think what's important top Bob well, to really important things


for me was the public apology. For me, that was really important


because it meant that he was going to put his hand up and say, "I made


a mistake and I shouldn't have said that about you". The second most


important thing for me was basically, everything I did was for


my son. He saw what had happened to me to document is only eight years


old, he witnessed everything first-hand, and it really affected


him. It was a case of, we have to stand up to bullies and I've always


taught him, ever since he was a very young child... Obviously, he saw me


as a committee activist and saw that I would go on campaigns and rallies


so he was used his mum fighting against injustice and so when this


happened to I had a choice. I could have just rolled over and let other


people win, which is what they expected me to do, or I could stand


and say, actually, you're not going to bully me, and be the only woman


who is going to stand up to you but I'm going to stand up to you whether


you like it or not. And over the years, my son has seen me,


obviously, fighting, preparing documents, piles and piles of papers


everywhere, books everywhere, and I think, I hope, that he's proud of


what I have achieved to date. Mark Lewis, tell us, were you surprised


when George Galloway's lawyers settled this case so quickly, having


fought it, apparently, for three years? Firstly, the hard work was


really done by Aisha, from the very beginning. We have to salute her


courage, strength and indefatigability, but she did a


tremendous job and she fought some very hardly go positions. That's all


about access to justice because she was pretty much left on her own to


fight the battle. So when she won, I wasn't completely surprised, I


wasn't completely taken away, because it was going to trial but it


was because of the groundwork Aisha had done. I'd love to take the


credit but I can't do that. But in the end, you cannot make up false


stuff about other people and potentially get away with it? Well,


that's a more important point. Aisha had the guts to stand up to someone


and said, I'm standing up and taking you to court, perhaps ignoring the


threats and advice from lawyers and the difficulty of getting lawyers


earlier on in the case and saying, I'm still here, I'm still going to


court. I know she was coming to London to the High Court almost


monthly, I think, and possibly even weekly, to go before the judge and


say, this is what I want to do and here are all the things. We


shouldn't underestimate how difficult that job is, because it's


hard enough being the claimant who is represented by a lawyer, because


of the stress of the case, but also to do all the legal work and to


understand very complex issues of libel law and to fight them, and to


fight them in court, and she did that. Briefly, what's next for you?


OK, so, Mark and I are going to work together in order to help people had


similar experiences to myself, who have found themselves having to


litigate a case without any access to legal help. In September I'm


hoping to begin my law conversion course, so that I can qualify as a


lawyer in a couple of years, and generally just a carry on helping


other people as best I can. This experience I've got over the last


couple of years, I want to protect this. Thank you very much for


talking to us. Aisha Ali-Khan and her lawyer, Mark Lewis.


As Commons Speaker John Bercow said Jo Cox's death "strikes not


only at an individual but at our freedom",


Labour MP Stephen Kinnock sat with his head in his hands.


he'd known her for 20 years, they'd shared an office and she'd


Throughout the programme this morning, we're bringing you some


of those hearttfelt and moving speeches in the House of Commons


yesterday, paying tribute to the murdered MP.


When it was his turn to speak, Mr Kinnock, the son of former Labour


leader Neil Kinnock, made one of the few political


He said she'd have reacted with "outrage" to a controversial


poster unveiled by Ukip's Nigel Farage showing refugees queuing


But he started by talking about their friendship.


Jo and I have been friends for over 20 years, and we've had a wonderful


12 months sharing an office since our election last May.


Jo used to use my cupboard as a wardrobe, and I will never


forget her dashing around in her cycling gear,


grabbing her clothes and shouting something over her shoulder about


She often brought her lovely children to the office with her,


and if I was lucky, I'd get a dinosaur drawing or a chance


They are wonderful kids who are truly bathed in love.


The murder of Jo Cox was a national tragedy, but we must also remember


the unspeakable personal suffering that it has caused.


Jo's family have lost a loving mother, wife,


Mr Speaker, the fearless Jo Cox never stopped


She exemplified the best values of our party and of our country -


compassion, community, solidarity and internationalism,


and she put her convictions to work for everyone she touched.


For the people of Batley and Spen, for the wretched of Syria,


for the victims of violence and injustice everywhere.


On Thursday, Jo was assassinated because of what she was


But out of the deep darkness of Jo's death must now come the shining


So let us build a politics of hope not fear, respect not hate,


Mr Speaker, I can only imagine Jo's reaction had she seen the poster


unveiled hours before her death, a poster on the streets of Britain


that demonised hundreds of desperate refugees including hungry,


terrified children fleeing from the terror of Isis


She would have responded with outrage, and with a robust


rejection of the calculated narrative of cynicism, division


and despair that it represents, because Jo understood that


When insecurity, fear and anger are used to light a fuse,


In the deeply moving tribute Brendan Cox made last Thursday,


he urged the British people to unite and fight against the


It is the politics of division and fear, the harking back


to incendiary slogans and the rhetoric of Britain First


that twists patriotism from love of country


Mr Speaker, we must now stand up for something better,


In the name of Jo Cox and all that is decent,


we must not let this atrocity intimidate our democracy.


We must now work to build a more respectful and united country.


Because this is our time to honour the legacy of the proud Yorkshire


lass who dedicated her life to the common good,


and who was so cruelly taken away from us in the prime of her life.


There are reports that David Cameron wiped away a tear.


As Stephen Kinnock spoke of how Jo Cox's children and husband had


lost a wife and mother, her husband Brendan


and their two children watched from the viewers' gallery.


As did her parents, sister and other family members.


Jo Cox's three-year-old daughter Lejla played with a drawing board


as she sat on her dad's knee, while five-year-old Cuillin snuggled


After the debate yesterday Brendan Cox tweeted,


"Thank you to the whole House and staff for your kindness


and compassion to our family today and for describing so


On this programme yesterday, close family friend Tim Dixon told


us how Brendan Cox had broken the news of his wife's death


Brendan, you know, the last couple of days, to help the kids,


knowing they are only three and five, they won't remember


So he is trying to help to now write down their memories.


So he got them to write down little memories on pieces of paper.


Cut out the paper, different shapes and hang them on a tree


And I just think he is trying to carry on that what Jo


and he created for them and I guess as friends, we will want to be doing


all that we can to step in and try and help because the loss


One of the most difficult conversations you can ever imagine


having with your child. Ben Brooks-Dutton has


a five-year-old named Jackson. Just over three years ago his wife


Desreen was killed by a dangerous driver as the young family


walked home one night. Lucy Sivaraman's husband,


Viv, died of a stroke while out She has got four children aged


between two and 18-years-old. 23-year-old Samantha Allen's mother


died in a car accident when she was five and her brother


was three, the same ages And from Edinburgh,


Nicola Campbell's 38-year-old husband died of a rare heart


condition in 2012 leaving behind Welcome all of you. Thank you very


much for coming on our programme and talking about what is a really,


really difficult subject. Ben, how did you, I mean, what happened? How


did you talk to your son? My wife was killed in front of us. A car


mounted the pavement and just skimmed my son's pushchair, but


struck and killed my wife and she died at the scene so we were all


there. He was two at the time. We quickly got him off the scene. I had


friends around and then after that, you know, we went in a police car


home that night together just the two of us and I had a bit of grace


then because I had lots of friends and family all of a sudden in the


house and so he had lots of distractions and lots of gifts and


people playing with him and things so I had time to prepare. I spoke to


organisations like Grief Encounter and Winston's Wish that help with


bereaved children, I needed to explain it to him in the most age


appropriate way. He was two so he wasn't going to understand the


concept of death until he was five or six. I said his mummy had gone


away, but couldn't come back, but reassured him that I was still there


and that nothing was going to happen me and he does understand what death


is and I have been able to explain through silly things like insects,


if we find a dead insect I can explain that dead insect can't move


anymore and it isn't alive anymore which means it is dead. It has been


a slow message, but something that's had to be consistent. Right. Lucy,


you have four children as I said aged 18, nine, five and two. When


did you tell them that you were going to switch off the life support


machine for your husband? It is funny. We told them at different


times. So Viv collapsed on the Sunday. We knew from Sunday evening


that we couldn't do anything, but knowing something and believing it


are very different. We had two days and then he was certified that he


died on the Tuesday. So my son who was 16, he was there all the time as


was my nine-year-old, but it was on the Tuesday, you're doing the worst


thing that parent, that you feel you can do as a parent really. It goes


against all your instinct, but you know you have to do it. So you have


to be really honest. I sat my eight-year-old down in the hospital,


you know, she was still with her daddy, we went into a room. And you


have to really be honest and use really real terms, you know, not


that they are they have gone to sleep or anything, it is about that


they have died and what this means and also someone gave me really good


advice about letting the child follow your child. Let the child


lead you in where they want to go with this and that was a really good


piece of information. As with my four-year-old, her level of


understanding as Ben was saying, they understand differently. That


was actually the next day at home. And again, just it is so, it is so


overwhelming that you just need to follow how the child is, but just


being really clear and consistent. We were talking before consistency


is really key. Samantha Jo Cox's children are five


and three, the same as you and your brother when your mother died. You


were in a coma after the accident. When you regained consciousness, do


you recall what your father said to you? Again, it was about honesty and


just being upfront with what has happened. But we did have to be told


repeatedly because we would come back the next day and there would be


a question of when is mummy coming home? Right. We didn't quite


understandment it was a difficult time, but you just have to be


consistent with the message. Yeah, OK. Nicola, let me bring you in.


Again, in terms of this conversation, how did it go with


your own children? My youngest was nine weeks old. So I didn't have the


conversation. It is just for her, it has been her every day since she has


been little so she has no memories at all of when it happened, when


Colin died. With my elder daughter, she was 22 months old. She was aware


and I, she was aware of his absence more than anything. And that evening


at bedtime, no, it was the second evening, the second evening after


because the first evening I wasn't able to speak to her, I couldn't


even dot functioning of doing feeding and bed. The second evening


at bedtime, after bedtime story I told her that daddy had died and the


same with the others, it is all, it is always been about the message of


being quite honest and truthful. As they've grown, I've told them, you


know, they've asked why? Why did he die? Why did his heart stop working?


I have been very honest about saying his body stopped work. His heart


stopped working. And it is part of their every day, they still question


and they ask me can they wish him back? Can they ask Santa? But as


they have got older, they have kind of understood that what death means


and that it is final. But it doesn't mean that you can't remember, even


though you have no memories, it is all, you know, we talk about him


every day, there is photos around and it is about creating new


memories with him as part of our conversation.


As family friend Tim Dixon revealed, Brendan Cox has got his children to


write down things they love about their mum. How does Jackson remember


his mum? How do you make sure he remembers his mum? There is lots of


pictures of her around. I tell him stories about her all the time.


Something that I've started to do though is to ask my friends to spend


time with him and to tell their stories because I only, I was only


with Des for eight years and she had 26 years of life before that with


amazing friends so they have got more stories and sometimes I feel


guilty because I feel I run out of things to say to him. He only had


two years and how much that is actually exciting for the parent


because it is nurturing a child, a very young child and trying to get


her best friends and family involved and have time alone with them to


tell stories and have a conversation about her is really important to me


as well. Do you remember your mum? Yeah, do I. I do. I have memories of


her and then I've spoken to, like you were saying friends of the


family and my family members themselves to get a picture of what


she was like. When I was little the best compliment you could tell me


was to tell me that I was like my mum. That was the highest praise.


I've got quite a big picture of her now so I can imagine her. But then


it is nice when you get new information even now like I recently


heard her voice. That was nice because I don't remember that, but I


remember what she looks like. Any new information is always just nice


for your collection. Lucy, how much do you talk about Viv


in the family home? All the time. But again, at the beginning, because


it was so sudden and as I think it was with lots of us, children often


go into a state of shock themselves. So they now talk a lot more about


what has happened, but we talk about him all the time. It is not about


remembering him, he is part of the house.s part of the family. You


know, he is everywhere. Harry will come out yesterday with you know


things about, "How did daddy hold the knife and fork?" I was driving


along the motorway and she was, "You should hold your hands up here


rather than down there just like daddy did." What you have all said,


you have to tell the truth to children. You cannot say they are


asleep or they're this hospital or I don't know if any of you reached for


heaven for example, but it sounds a silly question, but why is the truth


the right way Ben? You raised the heaven debate. I think that for me,


when Jackson was only two, he didn't know anything about spirituality and


heaven may as well have been Manchester. It implied she had gone


to a geographical location that she could get back from or he could go


to. The minute he started saying he wanted to be in heaven with mummy or


if she is in the sky, the first time you get in an aeroplane he thinks


that he will see her. It has to be absolute and consistent. Thank you


for coming on the programme. I appreciate your time and your


insight and your honesty, thank you. Throughout the programme we've


played you many of those tributes Applause is normally banned


in the House of Commons, Catch all the action from


Euro 2016 across the BBC. Radio 5 Live or the BBC Sport


website. You can also follow all the news


and action from the Euros, wherever you are, via


the BBC Sport website and app.