21/06/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


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21/06/2016

Victoria is joined by undecided EU referendum voters and MPs supporting Leave and Remain. She also speaks to parents about how to talk to children about bereavement.


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Our top story today: Only two days to go until you get

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to vote in one of the biggest political decisions

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If you're still undecided, we've got two politicians

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Hello, I urge you to Vote Leave because we can take back control of

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our borders and our economy. I'm urging you to stay in the European

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Union because we already control so much of our own affairs and it's the

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best thing for you and your family economically. Also some undecided

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voters will put their questions our politicians.

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England and Wales are through -

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but in markedly contrasting style.

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An incredible performance from Wales, beating Russia 3-0 last

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night. England are also through but they could only manage a goalless

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draw against Slovakia. And an annual dog meat festival has

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begun in south-west China - around 10,000 animals

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will be slaughtered. Critics say it's inhumane

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and should be banned - but supporters say eating dogs is no

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different from consuming TRANSLATION: Our ultimate goal is

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that the country can make a law to protect animals, especially the dogs

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ear. Translate Bob it has been a tradition for us for years to

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celebrate the festival. You can't change it simply because they love

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dogs. This morning, we're going to play

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you in full some of those moving and poignant tributes

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to the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox In the next two hours, we'll hear

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how she was described by her friends and fellow Labour MPs Rachel Reeves,

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Stephen Kinnock and Alison McGovern, and we'll hear tributes

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from her Conservative colleagues Do stay with us to watch those -

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and you're welcome to send If you text, you will be charged

:02:15.:02:20.

at the standard network rate. David Cameron's former

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chief advisor says the Prime Minister was warned

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by civil servants four years ago that it would be "impossible"

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to meet the Government's key Steve Hilton claims Mr Cameron

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was told "explicitly and directly" that EU free movement rules meant

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net migration could not be reduced Let's chat to our political guru

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Norman Smith at Westminster. What sort of impact is this having?

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I imagine Mr Cameron's feeling pretty bruised because Steve Hilton

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was one of his closest personal and political colleagues and here he is

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taking chunks out of the PM with a fairly blunt charge this morning,

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namely that there is no chance of getting net migration down to his

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target of the tens of thousands so long as we are in the EU. Or than

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that, Mr Cameron was told as much by his own officials back in 2012 when

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they had a stop meeting to discuss the policy, and Mr Hilton goes on to

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accuse what he called an insular elite of decrying and demeaning

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people over their concerns about immigration, and he suggests it is

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corrosive of trust in British politics. Number Ten are saying they

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can't recall anything about this meeting at all and interesting,

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today, we've heard from others, like Alan Johnson, who is heading up the

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Labour side of the Remain campaign, arguing that even if we leave the

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European Union, then there are still going to be high levels of net

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migration into the UK. Have a listen to what Mr Johnson said.

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This is not a referendum on immigration - still less David

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If people vote to leave on the basis of immigration, I'm afraid they'll

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find that they're going to be in exactly the same

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situation because the issues are complex and leaving the EU

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Indeed in terms of illegal immigration and immigration

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from outside the EU, it'll make our situation worse.

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Both sides in this referendum scurry around trying to get big-name

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backers, celebrities, to come in on their side. For example, we've had

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Benedict Cumberbatch and Keira Knightley saying they supporting

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Remain and the new fad figures like Ian Botham and Michael Caine saying

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they are backing Brexit today. Ian Botham and Michael Caine saying

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they are backing Brexit Today we have the Uber celebrity David

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Beckham. He has issued a statement strongly backing Remain at his

:05:04.:05:07.

arguments are that he has played in a lot of different countries -

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Madrid, Milan - and with a lot of foreign players, like Peter

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Schmeichel, Eric Cantona, Roy Keane, and from that experience he has

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gleaned that we are better cooperating and working together and

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he urges people to think of their children and think of their

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grandchildren when they are making this decision but he firmly believes

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we are better voting to stay in. It is always a moot point how much

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impact the celebrity endorsements have but there was a funny point

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this morning on the Today programme when Michael Gove had just finished

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doing an interview with Nick Robinson and the news came through

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that David Beckham had endorsed Remain and they quickly picked up

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Michael Gove on David Beckham's endorsement just as he was leaving

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the studio. David Beckham has just come out saying he is voting for

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Remain in the EU referendum and Michael Gove, who is leaving the

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studio... John Barnes is for Leave and as a QPR fan, I know what it's

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like to support the underdog in any event. Thank you very much. I go

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through days, weeks, months here never learning anything particularly

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new. Today I have learnt something new and that is that Michael Gove is

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a QPR fan. Somehow I never thought of him going down to Loftus Road but

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there you are, he is a QPR fan. Thank you very much.

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Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:06:37.:06:38.

Measures to tighten gun controls following the attack at a gay

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nightclub in Florida, in which 49 people were killed,

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Four proposals were brought before the Senate.

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But it rejected plans to tighten gun controls,

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including the restriction of weapons sales to people

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Senators disagreed about how to prevent more attacks

:06:55.:06:57.

A British man accused of trying to assassinate Donald Trump has

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Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea to a charge

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Investigators say he told them he drove to a rally held

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by the Republican presidential candidate on Saturday

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Our correspondent James Cook has the latest from Las Vegas.

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The allegation is that he tried to grapple a gun from the hands or the

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belt of a police officer here at the Treasure Island hotel in Las Vegas

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on Saturday, where Donald Trump was holding a rally. Prosecutors,

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according to documents a bit of a court, are citing the Secret

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Service's account. They have interviewed Mr Sandford and they say

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that he told them that he had travelled all the way from

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California to Nevada, some distance, to do this, that he had stopped on

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the Friday to practice, to learn to shoot at a firing range. Apparently

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the suggestion was he had never actually fired a gun before and that

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he intended to kill Mr Trump. It is said that he had a ticket for

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another Donald Trump rally later that day in Casey was not successful

:08:09.:08:12.

in the first one and he is said to have told the Secret Service that he

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was prepared to die, he expected to die, in this attempt at top court

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hearing few hours ago is at an early stage and was a preliminary hearing

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and there was no opportunity for him to make a plea. He was a mandolin

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custody and will be kept. The judge said he could potentially be

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dangerous and potentially posed a flight risk as well. There was some

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evidence that he may have had mental health issues in the past but the

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lawyer who has been appointed by the court doubt on his behalf suggested

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that was competent. He was not diagnosed as mentally ill at this

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moment and he is due to appear in court again on July the 5th.

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Parts of Brussels are on high alert after a police arrested a man acting

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suspiciously in the centre of the city.

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The area around the City2 shopping centre, a major commercial hub

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in the middle of the Belgian capital, was sealed off and bomb

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disposal teams have been called in - although it's thought that no

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explosives were found on the suspect.

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Figures obtained by the NSPCC suggest the internet is being used

:09:08.:09:09.

by people across England and Wales to commit eight sexual offences

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The crimes include inciting children to take part in a sexual act,

:09:16.:09:20.

grooming victims before meeting them and live-streaming abuse.

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The online world is playing a significant role in the sexual

:09:24.:09:30.

abuse of children in the UK, according to the NSPCC.

:09:31.:09:37.

The charity says predatory adults posing as children online have,

:09:38.:09:39.

in the last year, committed an array of offences, including

:09:40.:09:42.

grooming victims, serious sexual assault, and rape.

:09:43.:09:49.

In a new report entitled How Safe Are Our Children, it

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found that 3128 sex offences involved victims

:09:55.:09:56.

This is the first time police forces have been asked to flag crimes

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involving the internet, so comparisons with previous years

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just aren't possible, but it likely that the true

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figures are much higher, because at least six police forces

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Sir Cliff Richard has said the stress of being publicly named

:10:22.:10:30.

as a suspect of sexual crimes that he did not commit was so severe

:10:31.:10:33.

The singer has recently been told the allegations will not be pursued.

:10:34.:10:40.

He's told the Daily Mail he's been left physically and emotionally

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exhausted by a two-year ordeal that began when South Yorkshire Police

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raided his home after an apparent tip-off.

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That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

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Frank Yury much. Do get into achievers in the usual ways,

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particularly if you England all Wales supporter. -- thank you very

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much. If you text, you will be charged

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at the standard network rate. Let's go to Sally in Paris. I assume

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you're watching both keeping an eye on both but an England supporter, it

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was tortuous, wasn't it? I managed to watch both games quite

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neutrally and got very much caught up in the excitement of the Wales

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game. And actually, let's remember, England are through. It wasn't the

:11:32.:11:34.

best performance but they are through. England and Wales through

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to the knockout stages of Euro 2016 after those games last night. Chris

:11:38.:11:42.

Coleman's side outclassed Russia, 3-0,. Their group at their first

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European Championship, with England second after being held to a

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frustrating nil mill draw to Slovakia.

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On top of the group, on top of the world.

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A nigh that meant so much for Welsh football - for some,

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Wales might have gone out yesterday, but where was the tension?

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Certainly not in the mind of the Aaron Ramsey,

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who finished this as if he was playing in the park.

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Russia had looked flaky before this game, but now they disintegrated.

:12:14.:12:17.

Neil Taylor had so long he could choose where to put

:12:18.:12:19.

A demonstration that Wales' attacking threat

:12:20.:12:23.

extends beyond Gareth Bale, but he remains front and centre.

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A man who scored in a Champions League final,

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he looks like he enjoyed nothing more than this.

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As a nation, geographically, we are small.

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But, I think, if you are judging us on passion, I think

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you could describe us as a continent tonight, because that was amazing.

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There is more than one way to qualify.

:12:39.:12:40.

They made six changes in the game against Slovakia,

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and if Jamie Vardy had done what Jamie Vardy generally does,

:12:45.:12:47.

As it was, the angst grew and gripped them.

:12:48.:12:52.

Despite near total dominance, Slovakia stayed stout in defence,

:12:53.:12:56.

even when Dele Ali got through to the very last line.

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For the manager, only the goal was missing.

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I thought that we fully deserved to win the game.

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I am very surprised in a tournament of this nature, we can play three

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games, and in each of the three games, we have been

:13:12.:13:14.

The question is, how far, and how fast, they are

:13:15.:13:20.

There were some sensational scenes in the Cardiff fan zone yesterday.

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Have a look at the reaction when those goals went

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And wait till you see what happened at full time.

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It was such a great performance from Wales.

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Fearless, brave, heroic are just a few of the adjectives

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Of course it is Wales' first ever European Championship.

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Really proud. So proud for the country. And Gary speed's family...

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It's been a fantastic, absolutely fantastic. Incredible dated top

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never thought we would win 3-0. Just to get to the competition was enough

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for us but to get through is amazing. The passion for Wales, we

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are all behind the team. It is amazing

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They play Germany here in Paris later.

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We'll be hearing from our correspondent at the Parc des

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Tomorrow the Republic of Ireland play Italy and their fans have been

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winning admirers all over France and perhaps this is why...

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# Twinkle, twinkle, Little Star... # That is brilliant!

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Everyone with a baby and you get your baby to sleep, just gather a

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few Northern Ireland fans. Raez Good morning.

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It is 9.15am. Welcome to our programme.

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Caring, eloquent, principled and wise".

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"Above all she was filled with and fuelled by

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"A voice of compassion, whose boundless energy lit up

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the lives of all who knew her and saved the lives of many

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Just some of the heartfelt tributes to the murdered MP Jo Cox

:15:42.:15:45.

Throughout the programme this morning, we're going to bring

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As MPs spoke, her parents, husband and two young children,

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just five and three, watched in the public gallery.

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At times you'll see politicians looking up

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In moments of silence, her children could be heard playing.

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The House of Commons was packed with MPs from all parties,

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many fighting back tears, all wearing a white rose.

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A single white and single red rose were also placed in the seat

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where Jo Cox should have been sitting on the Labour benches.

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This morning we'll play you some of the most moving and poignant

:16:25.:16:29.

speeches and we'll start with that of her close friend and Labour

:16:30.:16:32.

I stand today to honour a friend and colleague.

:16:33.:16:45.

Along with shock, anger and grief, I have very many

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Jo and I knew each other for around ten years.

:16:49.:16:54.

I knew her husband, Brendan, for longer than that.

:16:55.:16:57.

We first met at a Labour students' conference about 18 years ago,

:16:58.:17:02.

and it was through Brendan that I first met Jo.

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I remember them coming round for dinner at the house

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of my husband and I in London, and us visiting them on their boat,

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first in Ladbroke Grove and then later in Wapping.

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I remember worrying that I had drunk too much wine early in the evening

:17:18.:17:20.

until I realised it was the boat that was

:17:21.:17:22.

I remember talking with Jo about her future shortly

:17:23.:17:29.

She was thinking about standing for Parliament, and spent a day

:17:30.:17:35.

shadowing me in my Leeds West constituency, talking to

:17:36.:17:37.

constituents about their problems, campaigning with party members

:17:38.:17:40.

By the end of the day, a lot of people weren't sure

:17:41.:17:48.

who the MP was and who was doing the shadowing!

:17:49.:17:50.

Jo had away with people, a way of relating to people

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from all walks of life, and she had a real way

:17:54.:17:56.

Her main hesitation about a parliamentary career

:17:57.:17:59.

She worried, as many of us do, about whether you can be a great MP

:18:00.:18:03.

But when the opportunity came up to represent her home

:18:04.:18:10.

seat of Batley and Spen, Jo felt a special responsibility

:18:11.:18:14.

to step up and do what she could for the place where she was born,

:18:15.:18:18.

grow up and went to school, the place that Jo called home.

:18:19.:18:22.

Jo wanted to make the world fairer, more equal, more tolerant

:18:23.:18:25.

We all have better instincts and deepest fears.

:18:26.:18:32.

Jo appealed to our better instincts, our sense that, as she said

:18:33.:18:35.

in her maiden speech, what we have in common is greater

:18:36.:18:38.

On Friday morning, less than 24 hours after Jo was killed,

:18:39.:18:45.

I sat in a coffee shop in Batley just a few minutes away

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A woman came over to me and said she hadn't known Jo,

:18:49.:18:56.

but that her death had made her want to be a bit

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A better person, a better mother, a better daughter, a better wife.

:18:59.:19:06.

It is ironic that, after travelling the world to some of the most

:19:07.:19:09.

damaged, war-ravaged places in the world,

:19:10.:19:11.

But she died doing the job she loved in the place that she loved,

:19:12.:19:17.

representing the people that she loved.

:19:18.:19:20.

Her mum and dad said to me that Jo wouldn't have changed a thing.

:19:21.:19:24.

She lived the life that she wanted to live, and yet in her mum's words,

:19:25.:19:29.

she had so much more that she could have done.

:19:30.:19:31.

So it now falls on all of our shoulders, the woman I met

:19:32.:19:39.

in the coffee shop in Batley, Jo's friends, MPs, all of us,

:19:40.:19:42.

To combat and guard against hatred, intolerance and injustice.

:19:43.:19:48.

To serve others with dignity and with love.

:19:49.:19:52.

And that is the best way that we can remember Jo and all she stood for.

:19:53.:19:56.

Batley and Spen will go on to elect a new MP,

:19:57.:20:00.

And later in the programme, we'll play the full tributes

:20:01.:20:12.

from Labour MP Stephen Kinnock, Conservative MP Andrew

:20:13.:20:14.

And by the way, a charity fundraising appeal set up

:20:15.:20:20.

in Jo Cox's memory has now raised more than ?1 million.

:20:21.:20:26.

This Thursday, weeks of campaigning will come to an end as you decide

:20:27.:20:32.

if Britain stays in or leaves the European Union.

:20:33.:20:34.

For some, the decision is straight forward,

:20:35.:20:36.

but what about those of you who are still undecided?

:20:37.:20:39.

You've got two days to make up your mind - that's assuming

:20:40.:20:42.

We've brought together one MP who wants you to vote to stay in,

:20:43.:20:48.

and one who wants you to vote to leave, along with four

:20:49.:20:50.

The MPs are going to make pitches to each of them,

:20:51.:20:55.

and then our four voters will ask them questions.

:20:56.:21:00.

For the Remain Campaign, we have the Labour MP

:21:01.:21:02.

for Streatham Chuka Umunna and supporting the Leave Campaign

:21:03.:21:07.

is the Conservative MP for Stratford on Avon, Nadhim Zahawi.

:21:08.:21:11.

In the studio Rogers Gambiza, and Efosa Omorog-bay.

:21:12.:21:17.

In Newcastle is Nan Pancoast, and in Dundee is Ellena Leslie.

:21:18.:21:20.

Welcome all of you. OK. Who wants to go first? I don't mind. Off you go.

:21:21.:21:31.

Thank you. I have got a three-and-a-half-year-old and two

:21:32.:21:34.

19-year-olds, the same wife, I know what you are thinking. I want to

:21:35.:21:40.

grow up in a country that is open, dynamic, outward looking, non

:21:41.:21:46.

discrim nattry, a country that looks after its people, those on national

:21:47.:21:50.

Living Wage, makes sure that they actually have the best chance of

:21:51.:21:54.

doing well and increasing their wages as well as investing in

:21:55.:21:58.

hospitals and schools. I think we can do that best by coming out of

:21:59.:22:04.

the EU because we will trade with Europe before entering Parliament I

:22:05.:22:09.

ran a business which bought companies across Europe. It was a

:22:10.:22:12.

service business. 80% of our economy is service based. There has never

:22:13.:22:16.

been a single market in Europe in service, yet we have done really,

:22:17.:22:21.

really well. My issue is that the EU political project is one that is

:22:22.:22:27.

destroying jobs and livelihoods, look at Greece and Spain, one in

:22:28.:22:30.

every two young people is out of work. Each one of those statistics

:22:31.:22:34.

is a tragedy. They're blighted by the EU and this sort of madness of

:22:35.:22:40.

want to go create a single country, a single flag, a single budget and a

:22:41.:22:44.

single currency. Many of the people who are telling you to vote remain

:22:45.:22:51.

were saying we must go into the single currency otherwise our

:22:52.:22:54.

economy would collapse. I'm saying let's come out. Let's trade with

:22:55.:23:00.

Europe. We're going to do great trading with Europe. We buy more

:23:01.:23:05.

Mercedes and washing machines than we sell them. We buy more from them

:23:06.:23:08.

in goods. They will want us to trade. They won't want to cut us

:23:09.:23:15.

off. One in every five German cars come to the UK. We can protect those

:23:16.:23:20.

on national Living Wage. 77,000 people came in without a job. That's

:23:21.:23:28.

discriminating against people from Africa, India, Pakistan, Australia,

:23:29.:23:30.

South Africa, they can't come in because we can't control the people

:23:31.:23:34.

coming in from Europe. If we take back control of our borders we can

:23:35.:23:38.

have a much more positive immigration policy for the United

:23:39.:23:41.

Kingdom. OK. So that's the Leave pitch. I'm going to hear from Chuka

:23:42.:23:49.

Umunna in a moment. Eleanor a reaction to what he said? As you're

:23:50.:23:52.

saying about the economy, it is always changing so I don't

:23:53.:23:55.

understand how anyone can take what you say as factual other than like

:23:56.:23:59.

guesswork and wishful thinking, but that goes to say on both sides. A

:24:00.:24:04.

lot of it is guesswork because you can't forecast what's going to

:24:05.:24:08.

happen in the economy in the future. A reaction before you get to ask

:24:09.:24:14.

your questions. My main thing is the immigration part. I can understand

:24:15.:24:19.

blocking people who want to come here to work against those who are

:24:20.:24:23.

put here and cannot work, but that's the main issue here. How do we

:24:24.:24:26.

control those borders? We will answer that in a second. For the

:24:27.:24:31.

Remain campaign, Labour MP, Chuka Umunna. Well, look, think about all

:24:32.:24:39.

the things that you usually hear politicians droning on about on

:24:40.:24:43.

programmes like this whether it was the Government trebling tuition fees

:24:44.:24:46.

over the last four to five years. Iain Duncan Smith imposing a bedroom

:24:47.:24:50.

tax on people, the big arguments we have around the NHS, all of these

:24:51.:24:54.

things, primarily and whatever you think about them, they are domestic

:24:55.:24:57.

concerns. They are things that the Conservative Government has been

:24:58.:25:00.

running. The EU has had nothing to do with that and in the last four to

:25:01.:25:06.

five years, there are 121 Acts of Parliament and just four of those

:25:07.:25:09.

were to exclusively implement European legislation. But where we

:25:10.:25:14.

work together, we do so because we can achieve more together with our

:25:15.:25:18.

countries than we can on our own. We amplify our influence and we deal

:25:19.:25:21.

with the issues which are cross-border. Take the environment,

:25:22.:25:23.

for example, we know that pollution knows no borders. Or the migration

:25:24.:25:28.

crisis triggered by what has been happening in the Middle East, that

:25:29.:25:31.

is affecting all of Europe. It is not something that will only affect

:25:32.:25:36.

the UK. But above all, the reason that we see huge benefit from being

:25:37.:25:39.

part of the European Union is because of our access to the single

:25:40.:25:45.

market. And that gives us access to half a billion customers for British

:25:46.:25:48.

businesses and that has seen three to four million jobs being linked to

:25:49.:25:52.

that, but also the stuff you buy in the shops, 28% of the produce you

:25:53.:25:55.

buy on high street shelves you get your daily paper, whatever it might

:25:56.:25:59.

be, cheese, wine, chocolate, healthier things too, we don't have

:26:00.:26:03.

to pay a tariff on those things when they come from the European Union

:26:04.:26:07.

those 28% of products. If we weren't part of the single market there

:26:08.:26:10.

would be a tariff. I'm not arguing that we can't trade with these

:26:11.:26:13.

people if we leave, but the question is on what terms? And there is a

:26:14.:26:18.

huge inequality of bargaining power. 44% of our exports go to them. If

:26:19.:26:23.

you look at the other members of the European Union, 5% of their exports

:26:24.:26:29.

come to us. There are bigger and important customer to us than we are

:26:30.:26:34.

to them. I don't deny Roger that immigration is an issue and it poses

:26:35.:26:37.

a challenge to society, but the idea that that will fall away if we leave

:26:38.:26:41.

the European Union is nonsense. More people come here from outside the

:26:42.:26:45.

European Union than from inside the European Union. And there are things

:26:46.:26:52.

we can do to mitigate matters like in the labour market enforcing

:26:53.:26:56.

minimum wage, but it is about having a big ambitious vision of what

:26:57.:27:00.

Britain can do. Traditionally we punch our weight on the world stage.

:27:01.:27:05.

We don't get kicked around by our European partners. We use it as a

:27:06.:27:09.

way of ampifying our influence, you've grown up in a globally

:27:10.:27:14.

connected world and for me it is about how do you succeed f you want

:27:15.:27:18.

to go into business, it is by networking and the State needs to do

:27:19.:27:21.

the same. Network with others who have our views and have our

:27:22.:27:24.

challenges. All right, let's bring in all of you to ask your questions.

:27:25.:27:30.

How does that affect immigrants who have started businesses in the past

:27:31.:27:35.

five years and who vote out of the EU? Well, here in the UK, there are

:27:36.:27:40.

EU citizens running businesses. They employ 1.5 million people here in

:27:41.:27:46.

the UK. So that's a good thing for us and for our, all of those

:27:47.:27:51.

businesses, can sell into the single market and of course, there are lots

:27:52.:27:57.

of jobs connected to that. There is only 6% of our businesses that

:27:58.:28:00.

actually export, you know, most of them in your local area don't do

:28:01.:28:04.

that. But of course, businesses are not an island and if you look at a

:28:05.:28:08.

lot of the bigger businesses which have many small businesses supplying

:28:09.:28:11.

them with products and their employees will spend their money in

:28:12.:28:14.

small businesses and for them exporting is a really important

:28:15.:28:17.

thing whether it is Hitachi who makes trains, our car makers, Tech

:28:18.:28:25.

UK, all the young new entrepreneur in Tech City, for them being able to

:28:26.:28:29.

trade is so important and that's why they are pretty much all of the

:28:30.:28:33.

business organisations representing small and bigger businesses want us

:28:34.:28:36.

to stay in the European Union because it gives you guys

:28:37.:28:39.

opportunities. You run your own business, don't you? What would you

:28:40.:28:46.

say to this man who runs his small firm and wants to know what impact,

:28:47.:28:50.

economic impact, there would be on the firm if Britain votes to leave

:28:51.:28:53.

on Thursday? I think you will benefit. I think the economy will

:28:54.:28:56.

become more dynamic. The question was asked earlier about, you know,

:28:57.:29:01.

the world is an uncertain place. The economy, the world changes, China

:29:02.:29:05.

could slow down, stuff could happen in America and elsewhere, you are

:29:06.:29:10.

better off having a Government that can act quickly rather than 28

:29:11.:29:14.

countries that can't agree. You seen with the refugee crisis, they

:29:15.:29:17.

couldn't agree. It was a mess. It was a controversy. They have been

:29:18.:29:22.

trying to sign a trade deal with South American countries since 1999.

:29:23.:29:25.

We are in 2016, they haven't decidedment you know why? France

:29:26.:29:28.

says no, I don't want the deal because of my farmers,

:29:29.:29:32.

protectionist. Spain says that's wrong, don't do that. That's wrong,

:29:33.:29:36.

but nothing happens. Chuka Umunna talked about food for example. The

:29:37.:29:40.

EU places tariffs of 30% on food from Africa. It hurts developing

:29:41.:29:44.

countries. If we were outside that, we can buy from those countries and

:29:45.:29:49.

support them even more. So my view, my message to you is you're running

:29:50.:29:54.

a bishtion only 60% Goldman Sachs, the JP Morgans want us to stay in

:29:55.:29:58.

the EU because they have departments who can wade through the red tape

:29:59.:30:02.

and make sure smaller competitors don't take over their business. For

:30:03.:30:07.

small business and mat jort of small business actually support the Vote

:30:08.:30:12.

Leave campaign. The big corporate businesses support the Stay camp.

:30:13.:30:17.

The Federation of Small Business members are evenly balanced. 47%

:30:18.:30:20.

wanted to stay in. 41% wanted to leave. What does your business do by

:30:21.:30:25.

the way? Can I ask you both to answer more briefly otherwise we

:30:26.:30:27.

will never get through the questions. What does your business

:30:28.:30:31.

do? We are a music production company. We do films and movies. Let

:30:32.:30:38.

me get a question from them. I'm going to ask you to be more brief in

:30:39.:30:40.

your replies. Go ahead. I was just wondering, as just an

:30:41.:30:49.

average Joe, what difference would staying or leaving actually do for

:30:50.:30:56.

me or someone down the road? Don't be a barrister asked that. --

:30:57.:31:03.

embarrassed to ask. We would be a more dynamic economy. What does that

:31:04.:31:09.

mean in practical terms? There was a report from a German bank saying

:31:10.:31:13.

that if we came out, British complete with outperform European

:31:14.:31:15.

companies so there would be more jobs being crated here. Europe has

:31:16.:31:20.

stagnated. Its growth is the slowest in the world other than Antarctica,

:31:21.:31:26.

so Europe has been job destroying. People in Spain, young people like

:31:27.:31:30.

yourself are out of work. If we are outside, we can trade with Europe.

:31:31.:31:33.

There is a free trade area already which closed eyes and Istanbul,

:31:34.:31:41.

which we will remain part of. -- which goes from Iceland to Istanbul.

:31:42.:31:46.

We would become outward looking and truly dynamic and positive. I don't

:31:47.:31:52.

know if you are out of work, Nine. What do you do? Yes, I am currently

:31:53.:31:57.

out of work, unfortunately. What would you say to Nan? The first

:31:58.:32:05.

thing people will feel the impact of is increased price of this --

:32:06.:32:11.

prices. Vote leaves say we will trade but we will not be part of the

:32:12.:32:15.

single market so things you buy in the shop which have been imported,

:32:16.:32:20.

you will pay more for if they have been imported from the EU. There are

:32:21.:32:27.

also pretty much every single major economic independent forecaster, the

:32:28.:32:29.

biggest profile one is maybe the governor of the Bank of England, has

:32:30.:32:33.

said that there will be a shock to the economy and usually when there

:32:34.:32:37.

is a short-term shock at the very least youth unemployment gets hit

:32:38.:32:42.

first. The governor has taught about other things, paying off a housing,

:32:43.:32:47.

borrowing rates going up, but I think you said practically, what

:32:48.:32:50.

will you feel, and I think it is that. What is your question? It is

:32:51.:32:56.

surrounding immigration and this is directed at both of you. What plan

:32:57.:33:00.

would you put in place to stem the flow of immigration to control the

:33:01.:33:05.

issue around immigration, but to also provide the opportunity for

:33:06.:33:08.

those coming into work and coming into better their lives? What plan

:33:09.:33:12.

would you put in place? Briefly, in a nutshell. The leader of the Remain

:33:13.:33:18.

campaign, Stuart Rose, who was head of M, said wages would go up our

:33:19.:33:25.

national living which would go up. The question was about controlling

:33:26.:33:29.

immigration. If we come out, we decide who comes in. Australia has a

:33:30.:33:35.

point system and they decide what is right for their economy, how many

:33:36.:33:40.

jobs we need, what sort of skills we need. If we stay in, there are

:33:41.:33:43.

countries in Europe where the minimum wage is ?2 an hour. They are

:33:44.:33:47.

coming in and actually hurting those on the lowest wages in our country.

:33:48.:33:52.

So if you are looking for work and your on national living wage, your

:33:53.:33:56.

job is at risk if we stay in Europe. If we come out, we control our

:33:57.:33:59.

borders with a points -based system, that way we decide and we don't

:34:00.:34:04.

like, we can change our government and have a different government set

:34:05.:34:07.

it. That's my proposition. It is quite amusing to me because usually

:34:08.:34:12.

when I am arguing with Nadhim Zahawi, he is telling you how great

:34:13.:34:16.

the economy is the national minimum is enforced as a higher level, but

:34:17.:34:21.

in terms of your question let's not forget there are 2 million Brits who

:34:22.:34:24.

benefit from free movement so they are living and working in the

:34:25.:34:28.

European Union as well. There is this idea that somehow because we

:34:29.:34:34.

are part of free movement that comes with the EU, for none EU countries

:34:35.:34:37.

it means that people who frankly looked like me and you are unfairly

:34:38.:34:40.

discriminated against. That's rubbish. The rules that we have

:34:41.:34:46.

applied to none EU countries have nothing to do with the EU. That is a

:34:47.:34:51.

figment of Conservative government policy. Questions about controlling

:34:52.:34:55.

immigration. We do control it in the sense that you have to show your

:34:56.:34:58.

passport when you come in and out and our judgment is that on

:34:59.:35:02.

balance... You can't have free movement of goods and services,

:35:03.:35:05.

which brings so much to our economy, without having the free movement of

:35:06.:35:09.

people and the judgment that we make is, on balance, there is a huge

:35:10.:35:13.

benefit we get from that movement and does not outweigh some of the

:35:14.:35:17.

challenges, and the judgment is, the benefits to outweigh the challenges

:35:18.:35:20.

and there are things you can do about the challenges. Enforce the

:35:21.:35:23.

national minimum wage, make sure that if people are taking out of our

:35:24.:35:27.

security system, they are paying in, which they have to do for four

:35:28.:35:31.

years. And we need to talk about not just the numbers coming in but how

:35:32.:35:34.

do we integrate people when they are here? How do we support them to

:35:35.:35:39.

learn English? I'm going to get Alan's question. Go for it. I'm a

:35:40.:35:45.

university student. I was reading on the camera crew independent this

:35:46.:35:48.

morning that a lot of the major higher education institutes are

:35:49.:35:51.

worried and concerned about a lever vote. It was quoted at around ?7

:35:52.:36:02.

billion comes from people in the EU. That is quite worrying as student,

:36:03.:36:06.

losing that income, so what is your opinion on that and how will it

:36:07.:36:11.

affect students? I used to be on the Business Select Committee in the

:36:12.:36:14.

last Parliament. I was passionate about international students because

:36:15.:36:19.

it is a great export for us. We make about ?8 billion and that is going

:36:20.:36:23.

to rise to about 16 or 17 billion and nobody in the UK dislikes

:36:24.:36:26.

international students coming to study at our best universities. I

:36:27.:36:31.

think if we come out, we can take more international students, not

:36:32.:36:33.

less, because we can control our immigration system. At the moment we

:36:34.:36:39.

have 188,000 people who come into the UK and we can't do a thing about

:36:40.:36:44.

it whatsoever because of free movement. I'm saying let's come out,

:36:45.:36:48.

let's have a system that we control and then we can decide if we want

:36:49.:36:51.

more international students enter our world beating universities.

:36:52.:36:57.

That's the best way to be. Eleanor, we do have a system which we

:36:58.:37:00.

control, which the government has set for immigration policy to have

:37:01.:37:03.

people coming in the tens of thousands. And within that cap,

:37:04.:37:09.

students, overseas students, who come here not only to study but

:37:10.:37:12.

spend money, they come within that cap but that is what the

:37:13.:37:16.

Conservative government has said it should do. I think is wrong. I think

:37:17.:37:20.

overseas students should be taken out of that but the EU has got

:37:21.:37:23.

nothing to do with that particular issue. In terms of universities, I

:37:24.:37:29.

declare an interest- I studied under the EU schemes, the Rasmus exchange

:37:30.:37:33.

programme, as a student and got a huge benefit and the knowledge of

:37:34.:37:35.

another culture, understanding how the -- another country works. What

:37:36.:37:43.

would happen if we lose access to that framework, nobody knows. People

:37:44.:37:49.

watching this programme say, all the universities want us to stay in

:37:50.:37:53.

Europe, of course they are going to say that because of that 3 billion

:37:54.:37:57.

figure, but as is about more than that. It is about coming together

:37:58.:37:59.

and collaborating with other minds and brains, which enables us to come

:38:00.:38:05.

up with new ideas to produce new products for these big emerging

:38:06.:38:10.

economies that they want to buy and that is why it is so important. I am

:38:11.:38:14.

not naive enough to think that a five-minute speech our guests,

:38:15.:38:18.

wonderful as they were, and the way they have answered your questions,

:38:19.:38:21.

will necessarily help you make up your mind right now but has it

:38:22.:38:25.

helped you? It has made it a lot clearer on which side I lean towards

:38:26.:38:31.

more. What are you leaning towards? Right now staying in the EU but I

:38:32.:38:35.

can see the points for out as well, especially being a business owner.

:38:36.:38:38.

The points for leaving and for staying have been highlighted a bit

:38:39.:38:43.

more but I am more to remain within the EU. Eleanor? I'm still

:38:44.:38:51.

completely on the fence. I see the good points of each side but I also

:38:52.:38:56.

see the negatives of each side. So come Thursday, do you think you will

:38:57.:38:59.

have made that judgment call by then? I hope so. I'm definitely

:39:00.:39:04.

going to vote so I'll probably be in the polling station and it will be

:39:05.:39:08.

like, which one do I vote for? I'm really informed so I do know what

:39:09.:39:11.

will happen, I think, with each vote, so it is just coming down to

:39:12.:39:16.

it and weighing of all the options. Nan, what are you leaning towards?

:39:17.:39:22.

Just from hearing today's arguments, there is a lot of negativity with

:39:23.:39:26.

leaving, with the whole control, control, control, and it just seems

:39:27.:39:34.

a bit daunting to side with someone or the campaign that is just so

:39:35.:39:38.

negative. I don't know if that makes sense. Can I ask you briefly about

:39:39.:39:43.

David Beckham? I don't know if you've heard the news today that he

:39:44.:39:46.

has come out for the Remain campaign. Does it make any

:39:47.:39:49.

difference to you when very famous... You are saying it does? I

:39:50.:39:54.

have loads of friends that play football and the prospect of playing

:39:55.:39:58.

internationally is something they aspire to and there are rules in

:39:59.:40:01.

place now for them to be able to play internationally right now and

:40:02.:40:03.

it is something that they would like to remain. We don't know what that

:40:04.:40:09.

would be like if we leave. What difference does it make to your

:40:10.:40:12.

campaign when you hear that David Beckham is on your side? For me, I

:40:13.:40:16.

think it's a brilliant thing but for me, it's far more important but

:40:17.:40:21.

we've got four expert opinions here and three out of four of these guys

:40:22.:40:26.

want to stay in at the moment and Eleanor, keep the faith. I think we

:40:27.:40:31.

can bring you our way. Nadhim Zahawi, how do you react to David

:40:32.:40:34.

Beckham being on the opposing camp to you? I have great respect him and

:40:35.:40:38.

anyone else who takes a view either way. Sol Campbell has out for Vote

:40:39.:40:43.

Leave, John Barnes has come out already. Belittles our great

:40:44.:40:49.

inventors - James Dyson, the great manufacturer and exporter. -- but

:40:50.:40:56.

look at our great inventors. JCB, 6000 employees making the best

:40:57.:40:58.

diggers of the world, they have both come out saying we are better off

:40:59.:41:02.

leaving, we will be more dynamic and will sell more to the world and be a

:41:03.:41:05.

stronger economy and more investment in our skill set. I did the

:41:06.:41:10.

apprenticeship job for my Prime Minister and I think it would be

:41:11.:41:13.

much better if we come out and it would allow people to invest more in

:41:14.:41:18.

the skills in the UK and sell to the world. Thank you very much. Only 48

:41:19.:41:22.

more hours to go. Thank you for coming on the programme.

:41:23.:41:25.

Still to come: China's controversial dog eating festival begins.

:41:26.:41:27.

Thousands of animals are expected to be killed.

:41:28.:41:29.

We investigate why, despite widespread opposition,

:41:30.:41:30.

We'll talk to those campaigning against it.

:41:31.:41:42.

And the little understood trade deal between the EU and the US which is

:41:43.:41:46.

being negotiated right now, which some say could endanger the NHS. We

:41:47.:41:51.

will tell you all you need to know about it.

:41:52.:41:56.

Here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:41:57.:41:59.

With just two days of campaigning left before the EU referendum,

:42:00.:42:01.

there's been a high-profile celebrity endorsement this morning.

:42:02.:42:03.

The former England captain David Beckham says he'll be

:42:04.:42:05.

He says after playing in Madrid, Paris and Milan,

:42:06.:42:09.

Europe gave his family the opportunity to enjoy "unique

:42:10.:42:11.

Beckham's former England teammate Sol Campbell has regularly been

:42:12.:42:17.

Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned by his own officials four years ago

:42:18.:42:24.

that his immigration target was impossible while inside the EU -

:42:25.:42:28.

that's according to the PM's former director of strategy.

:42:29.:42:32.

Steve Hilton - who's backing the Vote Leave campaign

:42:33.:42:35.

in the EU referendum - claims Mr Cameron was warned

:42:36.:42:38.

"explicitly and directly" that EU free movement rules meant net

:42:39.:42:42.

migration could not be reduced below the target

:42:43.:42:45.

Downing Street says it doesn't recognise the story.

:42:46.:42:52.

Measures to tighten gun controls following the attack at a gay

:42:53.:42:55.

nightclub in Florida in which 49 people were killed have been

:42:56.:42:57.

Four proposals were brought before the Senate.

:42:58.:43:00.

But it rejected plans to tighten gun controls, including the restriction

:43:01.:43:03.

of weapons sales to people on terrorism watch lists.

:43:04.:43:05.

Senators disagreed about how to prevent more attacks

:43:06.:43:07.

A British man accused of trying to assassinate Donald Trump has

:43:08.:43:14.

Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea to a charge

:43:15.:43:19.

Investigators say he told them he drove to a rally held

:43:20.:43:23.

by the Republican presidential candidate on Saturday

:43:24.:43:27.

That's a summary of the latest BBC News.

:43:28.:43:37.

And the sport now. Here is Sally live in Paris.

:43:38.:43:44.

A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over Russia sees them through to the last

:43:45.:43:47.

16 of the European Championship - and they've done so as

:43:48.:43:50.

It's only the second time Wales have qualified for the latter stages of

:43:51.:43:54.

England are also through but it was a disappointing goalless

:43:55.:43:58.

Roy Hodgson's side finished second in group B.

:43:59.:44:01.

Northen Ireland will be hoping to follow England and Wales

:44:02.:44:03.

into the last 16 but they face a tough task against world

:44:04.:44:06.

champions Germany here in Paris this afternoon.

:44:07.:44:10.

England's cricketers are in action today against Sri Lanka in the first

:44:11.:44:13.

one-day international of the five-match series.

:44:14.:44:15.

England's women will also play their first one-day

:44:16.:44:18.

international against Pakistan today after rain at Leicester yesterday.

:44:19.:44:28.

More sport coming up in the next half-hour. See you then.

:44:29.:44:31.

Thank you very much. It was perhaps the most poignant

:44:32.:44:34.

and moving moment the House of Commons has ever seen -

:44:35.:44:36.

MPs were recalled to Parliament yesterday to pay tribute

:44:37.:44:39.

to the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox. Throughout the programme this

:44:40.:44:42.

morning, we're playing you some Let me begin by saying

:44:43.:44:44.

again Jo's own words. "Who can blame desperate parents

:44:45.:44:58.

for wanting to escape the horror that their

:44:59.:45:01.

families are experiencing? "Children are being killed

:45:02.:45:04.

on their way to school. "One in three children have grown up

:45:05.:45:08.

knowing nothing but fear and war. "Those children have been exposed

:45:09.:45:12.

to things no child should ever witness, and I know that

:45:13.:45:14.

I would risk life and limb to get my two precious babies out

:45:15.:45:17.

of that hellhole." When Jo spoke, Mr Speaker, we

:45:18.:45:22.

all listened. Because the principle she drew

:45:23.:45:24.

on in that speech and in life is the simple idea that

:45:25.:45:33.

we have more in common Her words demonstrate that

:45:34.:45:37.

if we choose, we do not always have to see ourselves as different

:45:38.:45:43.

from those far away. We all listened because her words

:45:44.:45:49.

spoke to each and every one of us. Now, to know Jo, even a little bit,

:45:50.:46:00.

was to understand how proud she was in her family, and to hear

:46:01.:46:03.

her relish her role as a mum. Many of her friends have spoken

:46:04.:46:07.

of that joy, that warmth, She had a way of talking,

:46:08.:46:09.

not just about herself, her own ideas, but always

:46:10.:46:17.

what we could do together. Jo took on the toughest of problems,

:46:18.:46:19.

the most forgotten causes, and fought campaigns

:46:20.:46:24.

that we could all feel a part of, Whether Darfur or the DRC,

:46:25.:46:26.

Jo knew how easily our global responsibilities fade from view

:46:27.:46:34.

without conscious activism. As Jo herself wrote,

:46:35.:46:39.

this active internationalist It has been and is still contested

:46:40.:46:41.

across the political spectrum. So Jo wrote about a fight not just

:46:42.:46:50.

for one country, one people or one cause,

:46:51.:46:53.

but a worldview that bestowed on each of us rights, and on all

:46:54.:46:57.

of us the responsibility to protect. This is especially true in relation

:46:58.:47:05.

to her activism in pursuit Faced with the great joy and great

:47:06.:47:07.

risk of motherhood, women So when the world could not find

:47:08.:47:13.

the wherewithal to meet the Millennium Development Goal

:47:14.:47:20.

to cut maternal mortality, Jo took on this huge challenge

:47:21.:47:22.

and made global leaders sit up Now, Jo didn't just

:47:23.:47:26.

believe that women's She was a feminist whose activism

:47:27.:47:32.

saved women's lives and whose political skill got women elected

:47:33.:47:39.

to this House. Many in this place will have

:47:40.:47:44.

never seen the quiet, careful work of Jo and her

:47:45.:47:47.

colleagues at the Labour Women's Network to give women the knowledge

:47:48.:47:51.

and the networks to take She did it not by hectoring

:47:52.:47:57.

or lecturing, but by believing in the goodness of others,

:47:58.:48:06.

and as Jo's friend and mine, Kirsty McNeill, has written,

:48:07.:48:08.

half holding you upright, That was what it meant to have Jo's

:48:09.:48:10.

arm around your shoulder, and how we all long for those arms

:48:11.:48:14.

around our shoulder today. Mr Speaker, those words from Jo's

:48:15.:48:17.

maiden speech must therefore truly We are far more united and have far

:48:18.:48:29.

more in common with each other Jo's vision of our country,

:48:30.:48:34.

explained in that speech she made, is one we know

:48:35.:48:43.

in our hearts to be true. It's not where you come

:48:44.:48:48.

from that matters. It's the compassion and love

:48:49.:48:50.

in your heart. You might be proud

:48:51.:48:57.

of your home town, as Jo was, but you know

:48:58.:48:59.

that compassion doesn't And here's another

:49:00.:49:01.

thing that doesn't end. She gave love to us all,

:49:02.:49:04.

and that can never be lost. We may feel lost today,

:49:05.:49:08.

Mr Speaker, but inside us all, And we'll keep playing you some

:49:09.:49:11.

of those tributes throughout Thousands of dogs will be

:49:12.:49:22.

slaughtered at an annual dog-eating festival which has begun

:49:23.:49:32.

in South West China. That's despite a petition signed

:49:33.:49:34.

by 11 million people handed in to Beijing by celebrities

:49:35.:49:36.

and campaigners that calls Here's a short film about how

:49:37.:49:38.

the festival began Some of the images we're

:49:39.:49:41.

going to show over the next ten You may not want young children to

:49:42.:49:46.

see them. The lychee and dog meat festival,

:49:47.:49:56.

known as the Yulin festival, is an annual event where roughly

:49:57.:50:04.

10,000 to 15,000 dogs and cats It takes place this week

:50:05.:50:07.

in the city of Yulin. That's in a largely rural

:50:08.:50:10.

and poor region of China. The Chinese tradition of eating dog

:50:11.:50:13.

meat dates back around 500 years, and is believed to ward off

:50:14.:50:16.

the heat of summer. Around 10 to 20 million dogs

:50:17.:50:21.

are killed for their meat each year This festival began in 2010

:50:22.:50:24.

to celebrate the summer solstice. While slaughtering dogs is common

:50:25.:50:28.

in China, the festival is seen to represent the cruelty

:50:29.:50:31.

of the largely unregulated industry. Some of the animals

:50:32.:50:36.

killed are stolen pets, still wearing their collars

:50:37.:50:39.

as they die. Others are sent to the festival

:50:40.:50:41.

in small cages without food or water, having travelled

:50:42.:50:44.

hundreds of miles. The animals tend to be

:50:45.:50:48.

slaughtered whilst still alive. Some restaurant owners

:50:49.:50:53.

claim their adrenaline-rich We are here asking you to

:50:54.:50:55.

stop the cruelty. While there is no law in the UK

:50:56.:51:01.

saying you can't eat a cat or dog, People in Western countries see dogs

:51:02.:51:09.

as their pets. It's different in China,

:51:10.:51:14.

where they're not viewed However, it's not the only country

:51:15.:51:16.

where people eat these Jill Robinson, founder

:51:17.:51:22.

of Animals Asia Foundation. Rebecca Pow, Conservative MP

:51:23.:51:33.

and Chair of the Animal Welfare And Andrea Gung, founder

:51:34.:51:38.

of the Dou Dou Project that aims to change people's perceptions

:51:39.:51:43.

about dogs in Yulin. Andrea tell us how you're trying to

:51:44.:51:56.

do that? I have been to Yulin many times because I really want to end

:51:57.:52:02.

the dog meat trade. Not just the dog meat festival because what we have

:52:03.:52:08.

to understand in Yulin people eat dogs year round, not just on one

:52:09.:52:13.

day. On this day, the dog meat pestively they just eat more dogs.

:52:14.:52:16.

So after I have been there many times I talked to a lot of local

:52:17.:52:24.

people. I realised to totally end this practise, we just have to

:52:25.:52:28.

change people's mindset. No consumption, no killing. So that's

:52:29.:52:32.

what I decided we're going to reach out to the community throughout the

:52:33.:52:38.

events programme toe educate people to make them -- to educate people.

:52:39.:52:48.

To look at dogs as a cam pannian and educate them and teach them how

:52:49.:52:55.

valuable dogs are for human beings Peter, the dog eating industry, the

:52:56.:52:58.

culture in China goes back hundreds of years. I wonder how long do you

:52:59.:53:02.

predict it will take to stop the Yulin Festival, if ever? Well, Jill

:53:03.:53:10.

would be best to talk about this. I think it will happen. I think

:53:11.:53:16.

because there is a huge amount of public shock at what is happening,

:53:17.:53:20.

to do with the cruelty really. It is how the animal is dispatched and I'm

:53:21.:53:24.

not suggesting that we do things better here and I'm not criticising

:53:25.:53:31.

if you want to call it culture, but it is a disastrous process and very

:53:32.:53:36.

horrible and it must stop, but I think Jill will be better... Go

:53:37.:53:41.

ahead Jill. The issue in Yulin, it is actually part of a problem

:53:42.:53:48.

country wide. I think the community at large wants dog eat to go end.

:53:49.:53:52.

What they are recognising now these are dogs stolen from the streets and

:53:53.:53:59.

from people's loving homes. It is become ago social disharmony issue

:54:00.:54:03.

and it is becoming a public health issue because many of the dogs are

:54:04.:54:07.

poisoned so the diseased daushtion the to beingic meat is entering the

:54:08.:54:12.

food chain in China. More people are beginning to understand that

:54:13.:54:16.

prospective as well. From a politician's point of view what, are

:54:17.:54:20.

you doing about this, Rebecca? It is difficult for one Government or

:54:21.:54:23.

country to pronounce that they don't like what another country eats. So

:54:24.:54:28.

one has to tread carefully with this. We can't say, "We don't like

:54:29.:54:33.

you eating dog meat." They eat guinea pigs in South America. It is

:54:34.:54:38.

not something we would do in this country because dogs are pets. It is

:54:39.:54:41.

a cultural change. In our Government, debates have been held

:54:42.:54:44.

in Parliament on this. There was one back in November. Actually calling

:54:45.:54:49.

for a ban, but our minister, you know, promised he will write to

:54:50.:54:52.

governments, he would speak to them, we will do the softly softly

:54:53.:54:56.

approach, but there is leverage there and I think one of the big

:54:57.:55:06.

levers is encouraging change, but the health aspect because rabies is

:55:07.:55:13.

a big issue and the incidents of rabies in Yulin province is the

:55:14.:55:18.

highest in China and it is believed it is connected with eating dogs

:55:19.:55:27.

which have got rabies. One in ten dogs are not vaccinated for rabies

:55:28.:55:31.

and there is a risk of catching it from the slaughter houses and from

:55:32.:55:34.

the butchering and from eating it. There is no regime to control that.

:55:35.:55:39.

It contravenes the World Health Organization, you know, standards

:55:40.:55:42.

that would, I suggest, be a good way that we can start to influence aside

:55:43.:55:48.

from the ghastly things they do in slaughter houses, we need to

:55:49.:55:50.

encourage adoption of better methods and standards. How are some of the

:55:51.:55:54.

animals killed for this festival? Oh goodness. Well, they are beaten over

:55:55.:56:00.

the heads. They have knives put through their jugulars. They are

:56:01.:56:03.

sometimes put fully conscious into boiling water to strip the fur from

:56:04.:56:07.

their bodies. So the cruelty is rife across the country. But again, I

:56:08.:56:11.

think, you know, I think the point is so many local groups now in

:56:12.:56:17.

China, 150 local groups, I was at a conference last week in China, where

:56:18.:56:23.

local groups, where the Government officials, where the police were

:56:24.:56:27.

coming along just talking about the issues and how they can, how they

:56:28.:56:31.

can address the problem of dog ownership management in China. So

:56:32.:56:36.

for example, the police are lowering the registration for people to have

:56:37.:56:40.

dogs. They're lowering the prices of vaccinations and they are making it

:56:41.:56:44.

easier for people to have dogs in community and they are slowly,

:56:45.:56:48.

slowly being able to see that dogs have a benefit in society. We have

:56:49.:56:53.

adopt a dog programme which is animal therapy across four provinces

:56:54.:56:56.

in the country. Where you know people recognise the good that dogs

:56:57.:57:01.

bring into the community. So it is a shift as Rebecca was saying of

:57:02.:57:05.

public perception as well. Peter, in terms of you supporting this

:57:06.:57:08.

campaign, what is it that's motivating you? My care for animal

:57:09.:57:15.

welfare. I mean, I think it is worth pointing out that there is, as Jill

:57:16.:57:21.

has said, a growing concern for the lives of animals in China and I

:57:22.:57:27.

think we should, we have to resist taking a powerful position because

:57:28.:57:31.

of the media attention and the horrible images that you see on

:57:32.:57:35.

television and on the internet and you also see a whole variety of

:57:36.:57:41.

small groups that come up waving a very powerful banner which creates a

:57:42.:57:48.

very cultural problem dealing with this serious problem and I, which is

:57:49.:57:54.

why I support what the big charities do and Animals Asia which is to work

:57:55.:57:59.

from within and to spread the vital concept of animal welfare and care

:58:00.:58:04.

for our companions and dogs are central to that will point of view.

:58:05.:58:08.

They are our best friends and they deserve better as indeed all animals

:58:09.:58:11.

deserve better from humans on this planet.

:58:12.:58:14.

Andrea, a final thought from you in terms of you trying to change

:58:15.:58:20.

people's perceptions of dogs. How much success do you think you're

:58:21.:58:27.

having? Yes, I will just come back to your other question, is it

:58:28.:58:31.

helpful? Yes, I have to act. It is very, very helpful and how soon

:58:32.:58:36.

you're asking? Not very long because what happened in China is, you must

:58:37.:58:41.

know China has this one child policy in the last 30 years. Every family

:58:42.:58:47.

can only have one child. Now, this one child generation are in their

:58:48.:58:51.

30s now. Who do they grow up with? They have no siblings so they grow

:58:52.:58:55.

up with pets, cats, dogs, bunnies and turtles. They love their pets as

:58:56.:59:01.

much as we do. So they hate this dog meat trade as much as we do. Other

:59:02.:59:07.

young people they loss their pets to the dog meat trade and they become

:59:08.:59:11.

die hard activists to change it. Now they are in their 30s and they work

:59:12.:59:15.

for the Government and they work for the media and they are internet

:59:16.:59:21.

savvy and so they spread a message like wildfire. I'm hopeful in young

:59:22.:59:26.

generation will end this cruel trade in the near future. Thank you very

:59:27.:59:30.

much. I'm going to leave it there. Thank

:59:31.:59:34.

you for coming on the programme. It is time for the weather. Here is

:59:35.:59:41.

Carol. Well, today we have got quite a bit of cloud across our shores.

:59:42.:59:44.

You can see where it has broken and some of us are seeing lovely

:59:45.:59:48.

sunshine and feeling warm too in the sunshine today, but we have showers

:59:49.:59:52.

across Western Scotland and some in Northern Ireland. Here it is also

:59:53.:59:55.

breezy. Dlu the day, a bit more cloud will develop. We will still

:59:56.:59:59.

hang on to sunny spells, but you might just see the odd shower coming

:00:00.:00:02.

out for example in the south-west. And so quite a bit of drizzle across

:00:03.:00:06.

the Channel Islands. Top temperature 22 Celsius. Through this evening and

:00:07.:00:10.

overnight, well, once again, we're going to see some cloud build. We

:00:11.:00:16.

will start to see rain coming in across south-west England, fringing

:00:17.:00:18.

in through parts of Wales and getting up to the Midlands and down

:00:19.:00:22.

towards Hampshire. The showers persist across the north-west, but

:00:23.:00:26.

it won't be a particularly cold night. Tomorrow the rain continues

:00:27.:00:31.

to advance into Yorkshire and Lincolnshire and another band comes

:00:32.:00:35.

up behind it. Muggy in the South East and still showery across the

:00:36.:00:36.

north-west. Our top story today:

:00:37.:00:41.

With only two days to go until the EU referendum,

:00:42.:00:53.

it's making your mind up time. David Beckham has -

:00:54.:00:55.

he says he's backing Remain. David Cameron's under more

:00:56.:00:57.

fire over immigration. This morning, two politicians have

:00:58.:00:59.

been making a last-ditch pitch to you about why you should

:01:00.:01:01.

vote to leave or remain. We'll still trade but we'll trade

:01:02.:01:08.

with the rest of the world, we'll have a dynamic economy, more jobs,

:01:09.:01:12.

more investment in schools and hospitals and in skills in our

:01:13.:01:16.

country. Will become outward looking and truly dynamic and positive.

:01:17.:01:21.

Every single major independent economic forecaster, the biggest

:01:22.:01:25.

profile one as the Bank of England, have said that there will be a shock

:01:26.:01:29.

to the economy and usually when there is a short-term shock, at the

:01:30.:01:32.

very least, youth unemployment gets hit first. Also in the programme:

:01:33.:01:38.

England and Wales are through but in very different ways. Yes, an

:01:39.:01:45.

incredible performance from Wales here in France yesterday, beating

:01:46.:01:51.

Russia 3-0. England also through but they could only manage a goalless

:01:52.:01:56.

draw with Slovakia. And what is TTIP and should you be worried about it?

:01:57.:02:00.

A number of you got in touch with us to ask us to look into it, so we

:02:01.:02:05.

have. So it's basically a trade agreement between the US and the EU.

:02:06.:02:10.

It's not just a trade deal, it's an investment deal as well. It means

:02:11.:02:13.

corporations have a huge amount of say. So you two guys are in the same

:02:14.:02:19.

place? No, we are in total different places. I think it is a good thing,

:02:20.:02:20.

he doesn't. Here's Joanna with a summary

:02:21.:02:26.

of today's news. With just two days of campaigning

:02:27.:02:30.

left before the EU referendum, there's been a high profile

:02:31.:02:33.

celebrity endorsement this morning. The former England captain

:02:34.:02:35.

David Beckham says he'll be He says after playing

:02:36.:02:37.

in Madrid, Paris and Milan - Europe gave his family

:02:38.:02:42.

the opportunity to enjoy "unique Beckham's former England team mate

:02:43.:02:46.

Sol Campbell has regularly been Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned

:02:47.:02:51.

by his own officials four years ago that his immigration target

:02:52.:02:58.

was impossible while inside the EU - that's according to the PM's former

:02:59.:03:02.

director of strategy. Steve Hilton - who's backing

:03:03.:03:06.

the Vote Leave campaign in the EU referendum -

:03:07.:03:09.

claims Mr Cameron was warned "explicitly and directly" that EU

:03:10.:03:12.

free movement rules meant net immigration could not be cut

:03:13.:03:16.

below 100,000 a year. Downing Street says it doesn't

:03:17.:03:20.

recognise the story. Measures to tighten gun controls

:03:21.:03:25.

following the attack at a gay nightclub in Florida in which 49

:03:26.:03:27.

people were killed have been Four proposals were brought

:03:28.:03:31.

before the Senate. But it rejected plans

:03:32.:03:35.

to tighten gun controls, including the restriction of weapons

:03:36.:03:37.

sales to people on Senators disagreed about how

:03:38.:03:39.

to prevent more attacks Sir Cliff Richard has said

:03:40.:03:42.

the stress of being publicly named as a suspect of sexual crimes

:03:43.:03:54.

that he did not commit was so severe The singer has recently been told

:03:55.:03:57.

the allegations will not be pursued. He's told the Daily Mail he's been

:03:58.:04:01.

left physically and emotionally exhausted by a two-year ordeal that

:04:02.:04:04.

began when South Yorkshire Police raided his home after

:04:05.:04:07.

an apparent tip-off. That's a summary of

:04:08.:04:10.

the latest BBC News. Thanks to those of you who got in

:04:11.:04:21.

touch about the conversation a few minutes ago about the dog festival.

:04:22.:04:25.

Sam has e-mailed to say, thank you for speaking about this horror.

:04:26.:04:29.

Fiona tweets, it has to stop, pets rounded apple, boiled alive for

:04:30.:04:35.

food, it is hideous. And late in e-mail says it is terribly cruel and

:04:36.:04:38.

inhumane and many of those animals are stolen pet. Time for the sport

:04:39.:04:41.

now and here is Sally in Paris. Lots to talk about this morning. A

:04:42.:04:51.

fantastic win last night for Wales against Russia. A 3-0 victory for

:04:52.:04:56.

them. England are also through to the next round but they could only

:04:57.:04:59.

manage a goalless draw against Slovakia but I think there is a good

:05:00.:05:03.

game in England. This team have a better performance in them. Maybe

:05:04.:05:06.

we'll see it. But now it's time to look

:05:07.:05:08.

forward to - hopefully, fingers crossed - another

:05:09.:05:10.

home nation making it Northern Ireland won't

:05:11.:05:12.

have it easy, though. They're up against world champions

:05:13.:05:15.

Germany here in Paris later. And maybe they have a secret weapon

:05:16.:05:17.

at the Parc des Princes. Katie Gornall is there,

:05:18.:05:20.

looking ahead to their chances. Northern Ireland in a very good

:05:21.:05:26.

position here ahead of this game with Germany. They know that point

:05:27.:05:29.

against the world champions would definitely see them through to the

:05:30.:05:33.

last 16 and even the three points they already have maybe enough for

:05:34.:05:37.

them to progress if the results go their way. Will have to wait to see

:05:38.:05:40.

other permutations play out but there are sure to be a few nerves

:05:41.:05:44.

when the players walked out of this tunnel later, alongside the world

:05:45.:05:47.

champions. But if they are looking for a good omen, they may have found

:05:48.:05:52.

it here. Let me introduce you to Jonathan, the head groundsman, and

:05:53.:05:56.

also from Northern Ireland. How special is it for you to have

:05:57.:05:59.

Northern Ireland playing at this grand? It's like a dream come true

:06:00.:06:05.

for me. When I was riveted three years ago I knew the Euros would be

:06:06.:06:09.

here in France but never in my wildest dreams did I think that

:06:10.:06:11.

Northern Ireland would qualify for euros. But honestly we've qualified

:06:12.:06:16.

for the first time and when the draw took place for Northern Ireland to

:06:17.:06:21.

come out and play here, it was another level. It was like a dream

:06:22.:06:25.

come true for me and I would say it is the highlight of my career.

:06:26.:06:28.

You've had your work a doubt for you over the last few days. Yes, it's

:06:29.:06:32.

been a bit disappointing. We were looking forward to the tournament

:06:33.:06:36.

and last year we had record temperature is a 48 degrees of the

:06:37.:06:39.

stadium so we were worried about about the heat stress on the grass

:06:40.:06:43.

and it has completely turned full circle and the last six weeks it has

:06:44.:06:46.

just been nonstop rain here in Paris and it has made it very difficult

:06:47.:06:51.

for us. From here the pitch looks fantastic. With you be able to relax

:06:52.:06:54.

at any point when the game is going on and watch and support Northern

:06:55.:06:58.

Ireland? Unfortunately, I'm a football fanatic and I love football

:06:59.:07:01.

but when the players are playing on your pitch, it is a nervous time for

:07:02.:07:06.

me and the players. Once the final whistle goes, I can finally relax,

:07:07.:07:12.

which is a little bit hard, but as a football fan, obviously, I enjoy the

:07:13.:07:15.

occasion like the rest of the fans and hopefully get a win for Northern

:07:16.:07:19.

Ireland. Presumably your message to the players, known the slide

:07:20.:07:22.

celebrations. Maybe if Northern Ireland score, I'll let it go! -- no

:07:23.:07:32.

me slide celebrations. If they are able to get a result against their

:07:33.:07:39.

opponents, they might be able to make history.

:07:40.:07:41.

Tomorrow, the Republic of Ireland play Italy and their fans have been

:07:42.:07:44.

winning admirers all over France - and perhaps this is why...

:07:45.:07:51.

A group of them on a train, signing a lullabye to a baby.

:07:52.:08:05.

Do you like that bit at the end where they all go to Bob? I know

:08:06.:08:14.

we've talked a lot about the behaviour of fans here but I think

:08:15.:08:17.

it is important to note that they have all been fantastic. -- where

:08:18.:08:19.

they go two. More from Sally in Paris later. A

:08:20.:08:31.

memorial fund set up in honour of the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox has

:08:32.:08:40.

raised more than ?1 million in three days. The target is 1.5 million.

:08:41.:08:46.

They are definitely going to reach that target, aren't they? Absolutely

:08:47.:08:48.

remarkable. Yesterday MPs returned to the House

:08:49.:08:53.

of Commons to pay tribute to her. They all wore a white

:08:54.:08:56.

rose, the symbol of A white rose and a red rose

:08:57.:08:58.

were placed in her usual place Her husband Brendan

:08:59.:09:02.

and their two children, who are five and three,

:09:03.:09:05.

were in the public gallery, along with her parents Jean and Gordon,

:09:06.:09:08.

sister Kim and other family members. During the programme today we're

:09:09.:09:11.

playing you some of the most poignant speeches in full -

:09:12.:09:14.

and at times you'll see politicians looking up at the public gallery

:09:15.:09:17.

to watch her family's reaction. The Conservative MP and former

:09:18.:09:21.

International Development Minister Andrew Mitchell first met

:09:22.:09:25.

Jo Cox ten years ago, marching against injustice

:09:26.:09:28.

in Sudan and then staying with her in the region,

:09:29.:09:30.

where she was working for Oxfam. They went on to form a cross-party

:09:31.:09:34.

all-parliamentary group on Syria. Mr Speaker, today, we mourn

:09:35.:09:38.

the terrible loss of our friend and colleague Jo, so tragically

:09:39.:09:51.

murdered as she went about her constituency

:09:52.:09:54.

duties last Thursday. The life has been taken

:09:55.:09:59.

of a truly exceptional woman, whose goodness and passion,

:10:00.:10:02.

dedication to humanitarian values, I knew her as a friend,

:10:03.:10:05.

but how unbearable must it be for those who mourn her

:10:06.:10:14.

as a daughter, sister, husband, and above all,

:10:15.:10:17.

as their beloved mum, who they used to visit for tea each

:10:18.:10:20.

week in Portcullis House. I first met Jo ten years ago

:10:21.:10:25.

in London when we marched And on two visits to Al-Fashir

:10:26.:10:27.

in Darfur, where she helped develop a central humanitarian

:10:28.:10:34.

role for Oxfam. The Leader of the Opposition

:10:35.:10:40.

as he then was and I stayed there with her and other

:10:41.:10:43.

humanitarian workers, and witnessed her crucial role

:10:44.:10:46.

for Oxfam in supporting women and children, and securing water

:10:47.:10:50.

for thousands of refugees I wear it still to ensure

:10:51.:10:55.

that we remember the desperate people caught up in what

:10:56.:11:05.

President Bush rightly And it is amongst her many friends

:11:06.:11:07.

and colleagues in the international humanitarian and development family

:11:08.:11:15.

all around the world, of which she was such a respected

:11:16.:11:19.

and experienced member, that she will be mourned

:11:20.:11:24.

and remembered as a staunch friend of the most desperate and deprived

:11:25.:11:28.

in our world, and as a campaigner When she entered this House just 13

:11:29.:11:31.

short months ago, she rapidly used her deep knowledge

:11:32.:11:39.

to champion the dispossessed. She was Labour to her fingertips,

:11:40.:11:44.

but restlessly dismissive of party political manoeuvring,

:11:45.:11:50.

which she saw as a Making common cause with a crusty

:11:51.:11:54.

old Tory, she and I became co-chairs Her energy and effectiveness

:11:55.:12:06.

were an inspiration. We invited ourselves to tea

:12:07.:12:13.

with the Russian ambassador With clever charm but steely

:12:14.:12:15.

determination, this five-foot bundle of old-fashioned Yorkshire common

:12:16.:12:22.

sense dressed him down for his country's cruelty

:12:23.:12:26.

and cynicism in Syria. I do not believe the Russian

:12:27.:12:31.

ambassador will easily Mr Speaker, I think there are many

:12:32.:12:34.

things Jo would want us I do not believe she would want this

:12:35.:12:40.

vile and unspeakable act to change the open and accessible relationship

:12:41.:12:50.

we enjoy with our constituents. All of us take the advice

:12:51.:12:56.

of our local police in protecting Thankfully, the record shows these

:12:57.:13:02.

attacks are as infrequent Secondly, Jo would want us in this

:13:03.:13:09.

House to redouble our efforts to resolve the greatest

:13:10.:13:17.

catastrophe of our age. The crisis in Syria,

:13:18.:13:21.

where the lives of more than 11 million people have been

:13:22.:13:23.

ruined while the international community has shown

:13:24.:13:27.

itself disorganised, But Mr Speaker, I mourn Jo today

:13:28.:13:31.

as a friend and as a colleague. But most of all, I mourn

:13:32.:13:42.

for her as a mother whose two gorgeous children will now have

:13:43.:13:46.

to chart the shoals and eddies of life without the love

:13:47.:13:51.

and support of their Andrew Mitchell, Conservative MP.

:13:52.:14:13.

David Beckham has come out in support of remaining in the European

:14:14.:14:15.

Union and our political Guru Norman Smith can tell us more to it what

:14:16.:14:18.

does he say in his statement? Just before we get to that, on the

:14:19.:14:25.

cusp of a referendum you might think David Cameron be talking about the

:14:26.:14:28.

economy but he is tweeting about David Beckham, so the PM says,

:14:29.:14:31.

"David Beckham is clear, we should be facing the problems of the world

:14:32.:14:37.

together and not alone". This after David Beckham issued a statement

:14:38.:14:40.

saying he has played for clubs in lots of different parts of Europe

:14:41.:14:43.

and Milan and with lots of international stars and what that

:14:44.:14:47.

has taught him is that you are better working together with other

:14:48.:14:52.

people. His statement here... Let me read you the nub of it. He says, "We

:14:53.:14:56.

live in a vibrant and connected world where together as a people we

:14:57.:15:00.

are strong. For our children and their children, we should be facing

:15:01.:15:05.

the world together and not alone". Downing Street obviously utterly

:15:06.:15:08.

delighted because there are celebrities and, hey, there are

:15:09.:15:12.

celebrities and David Beckham is, hey, a celebrity. How much impact it

:15:13.:15:16.

will have in the real world? I don't know. Sometime celebrities can

:15:17.:15:20.

backfire. You may remember when Kenny Everett came out to back Mrs

:15:21.:15:24.

Thatcher and made a rather unfortunate speech about Michael

:15:25.:15:27.

foot, which was regarded as a disaster. Clint Eastwood was out

:15:28.:15:31.

backing Mitt Romney in the last US presidential election and he ended

:15:32.:15:35.

up rambling around stage talking to a chair, I kid you not. So these

:15:36.:15:41.

things can backfire. At a more mundane level, the ordinary

:15:42.:15:44.

referendum campaign goes on. The most striking thing today is Steve

:15:45.:15:49.

Hilton, Mr Cameron's former head of policy, formerly a close friend,

:15:50.:15:54.

laying into the PM again over immigration, saying that the PM was

:15:55.:15:57.

apparently warned in 2012 by his own officials that there was no chance,

:15:58.:16:02.

zilch chance, of being able to meet his pledge of getting net migration

:16:03.:16:05.

down to the tens of thousands as long as we remained in the EU. I can

:16:06.:16:10.

tell you in the past few minutes, just talking to one figure in

:16:11.:16:13.

government, they are saying they've been through all the papers and can

:16:14.:16:16.

find no record of such a meeting. Indeed they say that at the time, Mr

:16:17.:16:21.

Cameron was apparently being told that getting net migration down to

:16:22.:16:27.

the tens of thousands was perfectly achievable. So Morove and argy-bargy

:16:28.:16:30.

over immigration, which we are going to get in these last couple of days.

:16:31.:16:33.

Thanks, Norman. Next this morning,

:16:34.:16:37.

what is TTIP and why It's a subject that many of you have

:16:38.:16:39.

asked us to look into. It stands for the Transatlantic

:16:40.:16:43.

Trade and Investment Partnership. It sounds very dull,

:16:44.:16:45.

but many of you are worried that it could lead to privatisation

:16:46.:16:48.

of the NHS and an erosion of workers' rights, along

:16:49.:16:50.

with lower standards on food Our reporter Catrin Nye

:16:51.:16:52.

has been investigating and hopefully explains

:16:53.:16:59.

TTIP simply and clearly. It's very early in the morning

:17:00.:17:06.

and I'm on the Underground in London with an activist

:17:07.:17:11.

who is very anti-TTIP. We're going to do some

:17:12.:17:16.

work on the Tube. So, these signs that

:17:17.:17:21.

are going in the empty spaces on the Tubes are basically meant

:17:22.:17:26.

to imitate the Tube signs that already exist, but with

:17:27.:17:29.

anti-TTIP messages. This man and other campaigners say

:17:30.:17:32.

that TTIP threatens food safety, the NHS, democracy

:17:33.:17:38.

and workers' rights. But those that are for TTIP say it

:17:39.:17:43.

will mean more jobs, and more things much cheaper

:17:44.:17:48.

for you, the customer. Here's the background so you can

:17:49.:17:50.

make your own mind up. TTIP stands for the Transatlantic

:17:51.:17:58.

Trade and Investment Partnership. And as you may have guessed,

:17:59.:18:01.

it's pronounced tee-tip. Negotiated in secret,

:18:02.:18:06.

it's a deal to cut import and export taxes and regulatory barriers

:18:07.:18:09.

to trade between the US and EU countries, making it easier

:18:10.:18:14.

for companies on either side Industries it will affect

:18:15.:18:16.

include pharmaceuticals, cars, energy, finance,

:18:17.:18:22.

chemicals, clothing A deal that could add as much

:18:23.:18:23.

as ?100 billion to the EU economy, ?80 billion to the US economy

:18:24.:18:36.

and as much as ?85 billion Two million extra jobs,

:18:37.:18:39.

more choice and lower prices The biggest bilateral

:18:40.:18:44.

trade deal in history. As you see other markets like China

:18:45.:18:48.

and Asia beginning to develop and Africa, we've got to make sure

:18:49.:18:51.

that our businesses can compete, because at least in

:18:52.:18:54.

the United States, 95% of the world's markets are outside

:18:55.:18:56.

of our borders. TTIP is especially unpopular in

:18:57.:18:58.

Germany. Thousands protested

:18:59.:19:21.

when Obama came to visit. The protesters and other critics say

:19:22.:19:24.

the deal would favour big business and lower standards on products,

:19:25.:19:28.

on safety and on the environment. France has expressed serious

:19:29.:19:34.

concerns about TTIP as it stands, As it stands, we too,

:19:35.:19:38.

would reject TTIP and As well as the London Underground,

:19:39.:19:47.

anti-TTIP protesters are in Leeds It is a massive handover of power

:19:48.:19:57.

to corporations from governments. There are no problems in trade

:19:58.:20:08.

between the EU and the US It is one of the healthiest

:20:09.:20:11.

trade routes there is. And if TTIP was just about trade,

:20:12.:20:14.

reducing tariffs and breaking down trade barriers,

:20:15.:20:17.

I don't think many people The I in TTIP stands for investment,

:20:18.:20:21.

and the investment chapter is what really gives corporations

:20:22.:20:27.

the power and takes it away But I've also invited along

:20:28.:20:29.

Allie Rennison from the Institute Trade liberalisation has a very good

:20:30.:20:36.

track record of bringing down prices for consumers,

:20:37.:20:41.

making things cheaper to access, giving consumers more quality,

:20:42.:20:43.

a better variety of goods And so at the end of the day it

:20:44.:20:45.

makes it cheaper to enjoy And currently she is doing a good

:20:46.:20:51.

job of trying to take over It's basically a trade agreement

:20:52.:20:57.

between the US and the EU. It means that corporations

:20:58.:21:09.

have a huge amount of say. So you two guys are in

:21:10.:21:17.

the same place? No, we're in totally

:21:18.:21:19.

different places. Many people, like this man,

:21:20.:21:21.

hadn't heard of TTIP. The public interest

:21:22.:21:31.

and awareness is increasing. Have you heard about TTIP,

:21:32.:21:41.

the trade deal we're brokering There are some key debates

:21:42.:21:43.

when talking about TTIP. It just seems very

:21:44.:21:48.

undemocratic to me. The first is focused

:21:49.:21:51.

on the inclusion in the deal of another acronym, ISDS,

:21:52.:21:54.

which in stands for Investor This procedure would allow companies

:21:55.:21:57.

to sue foreign governments over claims of unfair treatment,

:21:58.:22:04.

and be entitled to compensation. If you think of an example recently

:22:05.:22:06.

where the Australian government attempted to introduce plain

:22:07.:22:19.

packaging on cigarettes. Philip Morris, the makers

:22:20.:22:21.

of Marlborough, decided to sue the Australian government over this,

:22:22.:22:26.

and failed on a technicality, but that type of case would be

:22:27.:22:30.

repeated in the future, and it will curtail our Government's

:22:31.:22:33.

ability to protect health, the environment and food safety

:22:34.:22:36.

and financial regulations. What it is about is enforcing

:22:37.:22:45.

international law. It's ensuring that firms

:22:46.:22:50.

can't be discriminated That's the nice version,

:22:51.:22:51.

but tobacco companies suing governments for trying to protect

:22:52.:22:56.

the health of their citizens, But if we look at what they're suing

:22:57.:22:59.

for, they're suing for the recovery of their assets, they're not suing

:23:00.:23:03.

to change the decision. It's a net balance

:23:04.:23:06.

effect, basically. You take the risk as a government

:23:07.:23:08.

that potentially you might be sued by a firm under a very limited set

:23:09.:23:11.

of circumstances, but the rate of return that you get on that

:23:12.:23:14.

company investment in the country outweighs substantially any

:23:15.:23:17.

of the risks that you take by having If you put your e-mail address down,

:23:18.:23:20.

we'll send you more information about how you can get more involved

:23:21.:23:26.

in the campaign. You're saying you don't

:23:27.:23:28.

know too much about it, If TTIP is brought in,

:23:29.:23:31.

they can more or less sue the NHS. In the UK, controversy

:23:32.:23:36.

around ISDS has focused I think it will encourage

:23:37.:23:39.

the privatisation of the NHS. What TTIP does is it

:23:40.:23:46.

locks out liberalisation. So if something has been privatised,

:23:47.:23:49.

it's going to be very difficult and very expensive for a future

:23:50.:23:56.

government to take it back in house. If you look at all the trade

:23:57.:24:01.

agreements that have gone before, there are always very clear

:24:02.:24:04.

provisions that say the way that public services are organised always

:24:05.:24:07.

remains a priority and a choice So there is no way that TTIP

:24:08.:24:13.

is going to forcibly They have got your

:24:14.:24:17.

interests at heart? Trade, dependence upon each other

:24:18.:24:22.

for positive reasons, The other thing your stall

:24:23.:24:26.

is covered in are signs The thing we really

:24:27.:24:32.

have a problem with is issues In the European Union,

:24:33.:24:40.

there are over 1300 chemicals banned In America, that list

:24:41.:24:45.

is only 11 strong. They want to harmonise this,

:24:46.:24:48.

and we are concerned that this will introduce potentially dangerous

:24:49.:24:51.

chemicals into our cosmetics. There are plenty of areas,

:24:52.:24:55.

the examples in chemicals where standards are so different

:24:56.:24:58.

that there is going to be no process on changes to existing standards,

:24:59.:25:01.

but what this is about, because you have a lot

:25:02.:25:03.

of companies that trade between the EU and the US,

:25:04.:25:08.

they are going to be impacted by differences

:25:09.:25:10.

in regulation going forward, so a lot of what TTIP in that area

:25:11.:25:12.

is doing is about joint If we leave the EU,

:25:13.:25:15.

this is done away with, we don't need to worry

:25:16.:25:21.

about it any more? I don't think leaving the EU

:25:22.:25:23.

is the solution to this problem, because those in charge

:25:24.:25:26.

of the argument to leave are very keen on negotiating a similar deal

:25:27.:25:29.

between the UK and the US, so I think we'll be out

:25:30.:25:32.

of the frying pan and into the fire. The pro side say TTIP means stronger

:25:33.:25:36.

economies both here and in the US, The antis say it means

:25:37.:25:43.

lower product standards, companies suing governments

:25:44.:25:48.

and a threat to the NHS. So many of you have got in touch

:25:49.:25:50.

to ask about TTIP and what it means Scott Smith who is in Leeds

:25:51.:26:06.

and Ewan McFadyen who is in Glasgow. Here in the studio to answer some

:26:07.:26:12.

of their questions is Dr Dennis Novy He was the advisor to a House

:26:13.:26:17.

of Lords inquiry into TTIP in 2013 Explain to our audience why you say

:26:18.:26:28.

you're neutral on issue of TTIP? I'm abacademic who works in

:26:29.:26:30.

international trade. I've looked into the detail a lot and I have

:26:31.:26:33.

been to a lot of public events on this and I have come to the

:26:34.:26:36.

conclusion on balance this is probably a good thing for the UK

:26:37.:26:41.

economy. OK. Right. Scott, welcome. What would you like to ask Dennis?

:26:42.:26:50.

What the implications are for the privatisation of the NHS are if we

:26:51.:26:54.

were to implement TTIP? This is a very good question. To cut it short,

:26:55.:26:59.

this agreement has nothing to do with the NHS. A lot of people are

:27:00.:27:04.

concerned about the privatisation of the NHS and I think rightly so in my

:27:05.:27:09.

view, but this is all down to what the Government decides and what

:27:10.:27:12.

Parliament decides in Westminster. They can privatise or not privatise

:27:13.:27:17.

the NHS. The European Union to this day, has almost nothing to do with

:27:18.:27:22.

the NHS and by extension, any trade agreement that the European Union

:27:23.:27:26.

agrees or may agree at some point has nothing to do with it. This

:27:27.:27:31.

issue has come in because it has worked as a political weapon for

:27:32.:27:36.

campaigners to scare people into believing that somehow this might

:27:37.:27:41.

lead it a privatisation of the NHS, but there is no connection there.

:27:42.:27:45.

Scott, do you accept that? Yes, Scott, yes? What I've read is that

:27:46.:27:55.

it there could be loopholes and corporations could find loopholes in

:27:56.:27:59.

the agreement which could mean that they could end up investing or suing

:28:00.:28:05.

if they weren't able to. If the Government, if Parliament decides to

:28:06.:28:10.

privatise the NHS or parts of the NHS then they can give out a

:28:11.:28:13.

contract to a private company. That could be a British company. British

:28:14.:28:18.

companies already, private companies already provide services for the

:28:19.:28:22.

NHS? Because of the single market other companies in the European

:28:23.:28:25.

Union can do the same. So fraench company can do the same. If there is

:28:26.:28:30.

this trade agreement with the United States, then a company in the United

:28:31.:28:33.

States could bid to provide services for the NHS. If the Government

:28:34.:28:36.

decides to renationalise that particular part of the NHS, then

:28:37.:28:40.

they would have to pay compensation to any company. So this is not

:28:41.:28:44.

specific to the United States. This is already true even if nothing

:28:45.:28:48.

happens with foreign companies in this context whatsoever. It could

:28:49.:28:52.

have to pay compensation to a British company right now?

:28:53.:28:55.

Absolutely of the that's already the law. What do you think of that then,

:28:56.:29:04.

Scott? That's reassured me a bit. I don't have much confidence in the

:29:05.:29:08.

current Government. But a future Government, it is up to a future

:29:09.:29:16.

Government. Ewan. Hello. Go ahead. The NHS is an important concern, but

:29:17.:29:21.

it is the tip of the iceberg. My concern is with food standards,

:29:22.:29:26.

water services, all kinds of problems. All kinds of concerns. I

:29:27.:29:33.

have seen seen the standards of food in America, GM crops, unsafe water,

:29:34.:29:38.

my concerns are that these standards would come into the EU, come into

:29:39.:29:43.

the UK and public service, public health would suffer? OK. Right, so

:29:44.:29:48.

food standards is one of those really difficult issues. This is in

:29:49.:29:53.

the negotiations. The European Union is negotiating with the United

:29:54.:29:57.

States at the moment and standards for some products, food products

:29:58.:30:00.

differ, this is where the two parties are trying to come to some

:30:01.:30:04.

kind of compromise. This is a really difficult issue. Food is always an

:30:05.:30:09.

international trade, a difficult issue. The United States are

:30:10.:30:13.

exasperated with the pros is of food standards in the European Union

:30:14.:30:17.

because the scientific evidence that the European Union itself provides

:30:18.:30:21.

is commonly rejected by politicians. This is very difficult to understand

:30:22.:30:25.

for outsiders coming from other countries. And this is one of the

:30:26.:30:29.

issues where those two partners will have to find some agreement. It is a

:30:30.:30:31.

difficult one. In terms of the deal being agreed,

:30:32.:30:39.

you would say sooner or not soon? Not soon. They have been negotiating

:30:40.:30:45.

since 2013. Nothing is going to happen any time soon because of the

:30:46.:30:49.

presidential cycle in the United States. Next year we have elections

:30:50.:30:52.

in France and Germany. Typically these things can take seven or eight

:30:53.:30:57.

years, so maybe 2020. Scott and Ewan, thank you very much for your

:30:58.:31:01.

time and your questions. And thank you very much, doctor, for coming on

:31:02.:31:03.

the programme. It is time for the latest news

:31:04.:31:07.

headlines. Here is Joanna. With just two days of campaigning

:31:08.:31:13.

left before the EU referendum, there's been a high profile

:31:14.:31:16.

celebrity endorsement this morning. The former England captain

:31:17.:31:18.

David Beckham says he'll be He says after playing

:31:19.:31:20.

in Madrid, Paris and Milan, Beckham's former England team mate

:31:21.:31:27.

Sol Campbell has regularly been Meanwhile, David Cameron was warned

:31:28.:31:33.

by his own officials four years ago that his immigration target

:31:34.:31:37.

was impossible while inside the EU - that's according to the PM's former

:31:38.:31:41.

director of strategy. Steve Hilton - who's backing

:31:42.:31:44.

the Vote Leave campaign in the EU referendum -

:31:45.:31:48.

claims Mr Cameron was warned "explicitly and directly" that EU

:31:49.:31:50.

free movement rules meant net immigration could not be cut

:31:51.:31:54.

below 100,000 a year. Downing Street says it doesn't

:31:55.:31:58.

recognise the story. A British man accused of trying

:31:59.:32:06.

to assassinate Donald Trump has Michael Sandford didn't enter a plea

:32:07.:32:09.

to a charge of committing Investigators say he told them

:32:10.:32:13.

he drove to a rally held by the Republican presidential

:32:14.:32:17.

candidate on Saturday Now back to Victoria.

:32:18.:32:30.

And the sport now. Here is Sally in Paris.

:32:31.:32:32.

Thanks, Victoria. A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over

:32:33.:32:35.

Russia sees them through to the last 16 of the European Championship -

:32:36.:32:38.

and they've done so as A stunning 3-0 win for Wales over

:32:39.:32:41.

Russia sees them through to the last It's only the second time Wales have

:32:42.:32:46.

qualified for the latter stages of England are also through but it was

:32:47.:32:49.

a disappointing goalless Roy Hodgson's side finished second

:32:50.:32:53.

in group B. Northern Ireland will be hoping

:32:54.:32:56.

to follow England and Wales into the last 16 but they face

:32:57.:32:58.

a tough task against world champions Germany here

:32:59.:33:01.

in Paris this afternoon. England's cricketers are in action

:33:02.:33:03.

today against Sri Lanka in the first one-day international

:33:04.:33:06.

of the five-match series. England's women will also

:33:07.:33:07.

play their first one-day international against Pakistan today

:33:08.:33:10.

after rain at Leicester yesterday. That's all the sport. Back to you,

:33:11.:33:22.

Victoria. Thank you.

:33:23.:33:25.

In an exclusive interview, a former aide to George Galloway tells this

:33:26.:33:27.

programme she's "in shock" after accepting a five-figure sum

:33:28.:33:30.

in damages from the ex-MP and former Respect Party leader over claims

:33:31.:33:33.

she conspired to run a dirty tricks campaign against him.

:33:34.:33:40.

It was a long and complex legal battle which started in 2012,

:33:41.:33:43.

when George Galloway made accusations that she was

:33:44.:33:48.

incompetent, slept with her lover in his house while he was away

:33:49.:33:51.

and used her connections with a police officer

:33:52.:33:53.

to help leak false to try and ruin his reputation.

:33:54.:34:00.

Not only did she lose her job, but Aisha Ali-Khan tells

:34:01.:34:05.

us her reputation and personal life were left in tatters

:34:06.:34:08.

in what she describes as the "most difficult period".

:34:09.:34:11.

George Galloway has now made a payment of five figures for damages

:34:12.:34:17.

for those defamatory comments, and agreed to pay a further five figure

:34:18.:34:21.

sum for the legal costs. Aisha Ali-Khan begins by telling me how

:34:22.:34:23.

she reacted to those initial claims. Officer, what he was saying has

:34:24.:34:32.

ready been picked up and reported upon in all the newspapers. That you

:34:33.:34:38.

were a spy, effectively. Yes, this was back in 2012 and back then it

:34:39.:34:42.

was reported in all the newspapers, internationally as well. It was

:34:43.:34:46.

absolutely crazy, the level of attention that it got. Not

:34:47.:34:49.

surprising because he was sitting MP at the time. But it wasn't just that

:34:50.:34:54.

he said you were some kind of undercover agent but also, he was

:34:55.:34:58.

spreading false information about you, that you were promiscuous? Yes,

:34:59.:35:03.

and I think for a Muslim woman who has worked in the local community

:35:04.:35:10.

for many years... I've taught in predominantly Muslim schools, led

:35:11.:35:16.

campaigns of disability rights, I've tried to highlight issues on

:35:17.:35:22.

domestic violence and child sexual abuse, so I was all ready very

:35:23.:35:25.

active within the communities and had a very good reputation within

:35:26.:35:31.

the community, which, unfortunately, because of what happened in 2012,

:35:32.:35:36.

was now being damaged. Why do you think he was doing this? It's

:35:37.:35:44.

difficult to say. I can give a general opinion. I think it is

:35:45.:35:48.

difficult when you are somebody who is used to getting your own way...

:35:49.:35:52.

And you had had a falling out, you were his Parliamentary aide. In the

:35:53.:35:57.

end, you say you were having to do an Parliamentary duties and he

:35:58.:36:04.

dismissed you, he sacked you. Yes. -- un-Parliamentary duties. He

:36:05.:36:09.

sacked me for gross misconduct after he sent me my -- after he received

:36:10.:36:14.

my e-mail is that were hacked from my e-mail account. I don't know how

:36:15.:36:20.

he managed to get those e-mails and someone who themselves was hacked

:36:21.:36:23.

and paid out quite handsomely, it is quite surprising that he would then

:36:24.:36:27.

inflict the same level of trauma and feelings of being violated on

:36:28.:36:32.

somebody else. In terms of this libel fight that you've been having

:36:33.:36:38.

with him over the last three years, you have won. I know, thank you. How

:36:39.:36:45.

do you feel about that? I can see how you feel. I think I'm a little

:36:46.:36:49.

bit in shock. It still hasn't sunk in yet properly. I have had the most

:36:50.:36:56.

amazing response from everyone, particularly because for the last 18

:36:57.:37:02.

months or so, before Mark got involved and agreed to represent me,

:37:03.:37:07.

I ran the case by myself. It is one of the most difficult periods of my

:37:08.:37:10.

life, not knowing anything about defamation law, not knowing anything

:37:11.:37:15.

on how the court system works. I had to learn everything and I had to

:37:16.:37:20.

skill myself up, so it's been a very, very unbelievable outcome.

:37:21.:37:27.

I'll bring in mark in just a moment but I want to ask you... You've

:37:28.:37:32.

received a public apology from George Galloway, you've received

:37:33.:37:35.

undisclosed libel damages, we're told five figures, he also has to

:37:36.:37:41.

pay the legal costs as well... What is most important to you out of all

:37:42.:37:45.

that? I think what's important top Bob well, to really important things

:37:46.:37:50.

for me was the public apology. For me, that was really important

:37:51.:37:55.

because it meant that he was going to put his hand up and say, "I made

:37:56.:37:59.

a mistake and I shouldn't have said that about you". The second most

:38:00.:38:02.

important thing for me was basically, everything I did was for

:38:03.:38:08.

my son. He saw what had happened to me to document is only eight years

:38:09.:38:10.

old, he witnessed everything first-hand, and it really affected

:38:11.:38:19.

him. It was a case of, we have to stand up to bullies and I've always

:38:20.:38:23.

taught him, ever since he was a very young child... Obviously, he saw me

:38:24.:38:27.

as a committee activist and saw that I would go on campaigns and rallies

:38:28.:38:31.

so he was used his mum fighting against injustice and so when this

:38:32.:38:36.

happened to I had a choice. I could have just rolled over and let other

:38:37.:38:40.

people win, which is what they expected me to do, or I could stand

:38:41.:38:45.

and say, actually, you're not going to bully me, and be the only woman

:38:46.:38:50.

who is going to stand up to you but I'm going to stand up to you whether

:38:51.:38:54.

you like it or not. And over the years, my son has seen me,

:38:55.:39:01.

obviously, fighting, preparing documents, piles and piles of papers

:39:02.:39:08.

everywhere, books everywhere, and I think, I hope, that he's proud of

:39:09.:39:14.

what I have achieved to date. Mark Lewis, tell us, were you surprised

:39:15.:39:17.

when George Galloway's lawyers settled this case so quickly, having

:39:18.:39:21.

fought it, apparently, for three years? Firstly, the hard work was

:39:22.:39:30.

really done by Aisha, from the very beginning. We have to salute her

:39:31.:39:34.

courage, strength and indefatigability, but she did a

:39:35.:39:39.

tremendous job and she fought some very hardly go positions. That's all

:39:40.:39:44.

about access to justice because she was pretty much left on her own to

:39:45.:39:50.

fight the battle. So when she won, I wasn't completely surprised, I

:39:51.:39:55.

wasn't completely taken away, because it was going to trial but it

:39:56.:39:59.

was because of the groundwork Aisha had done. I'd love to take the

:40:00.:40:04.

credit but I can't do that. But in the end, you cannot make up false

:40:05.:40:08.

stuff about other people and potentially get away with it? Well,

:40:09.:40:13.

that's a more important point. Aisha had the guts to stand up to someone

:40:14.:40:17.

and said, I'm standing up and taking you to court, perhaps ignoring the

:40:18.:40:24.

threats and advice from lawyers and the difficulty of getting lawyers

:40:25.:40:28.

earlier on in the case and saying, I'm still here, I'm still going to

:40:29.:40:33.

court. I know she was coming to London to the High Court almost

:40:34.:40:38.

monthly, I think, and possibly even weekly, to go before the judge and

:40:39.:40:44.

say, this is what I want to do and here are all the things. We

:40:45.:40:48.

shouldn't underestimate how difficult that job is, because it's

:40:49.:40:53.

hard enough being the claimant who is represented by a lawyer, because

:40:54.:40:57.

of the stress of the case, but also to do all the legal work and to

:40:58.:41:03.

understand very complex issues of libel law and to fight them, and to

:41:04.:41:07.

fight them in court, and she did that. Briefly, what's next for you?

:41:08.:41:15.

OK, so, Mark and I are going to work together in order to help people had

:41:16.:41:22.

similar experiences to myself, who have found themselves having to

:41:23.:41:24.

litigate a case without any access to legal help. In September I'm

:41:25.:41:32.

hoping to begin my law conversion course, so that I can qualify as a

:41:33.:41:36.

lawyer in a couple of years, and generally just a carry on helping

:41:37.:41:40.

other people as best I can. This experience I've got over the last

:41:41.:41:43.

couple of years, I want to protect this. Thank you very much for

:41:44.:41:49.

talking to us. Aisha Ali-Khan and her lawyer, Mark Lewis.

:41:50.:41:55.

As Commons Speaker John Bercow said Jo Cox's death "strikes not

:41:56.:41:58.

only at an individual but at our freedom",

:41:59.:42:00.

Labour MP Stephen Kinnock sat with his head in his hands.

:42:01.:42:02.

he'd known her for 20 years, they'd shared an office and she'd

:42:03.:42:07.

Throughout the programme this morning, we're bringing you some

:42:08.:42:10.

of those hearttfelt and moving speeches in the House of Commons

:42:11.:42:20.

yesterday, paying tribute to the murdered MP.

:42:21.:42:21.

When it was his turn to speak, Mr Kinnock, the son of former Labour

:42:22.:42:25.

leader Neil Kinnock, made one of the few political

:42:26.:42:27.

He said she'd have reacted with "outrage" to a controversial

:42:28.:42:30.

poster unveiled by Ukip's Nigel Farage showing refugees queuing

:42:31.:42:32.

But he started by talking about their friendship.

:42:33.:42:39.

Jo and I have been friends for over 20 years, and we've had a wonderful

:42:40.:42:49.

12 months sharing an office since our election last May.

:42:50.:42:52.

Jo used to use my cupboard as a wardrobe, and I will never

:42:53.:42:55.

forget her dashing around in her cycling gear,

:42:56.:42:57.

grabbing her clothes and shouting something over her shoulder about

:42:58.:43:01.

She often brought her lovely children to the office with her,

:43:02.:43:07.

and if I was lucky, I'd get a dinosaur drawing or a chance

:43:08.:43:10.

They are wonderful kids who are truly bathed in love.

:43:11.:43:17.

The murder of Jo Cox was a national tragedy, but we must also remember

:43:18.:43:21.

the unspeakable personal suffering that it has caused.

:43:22.:43:25.

Jo's family have lost a loving mother, wife,

:43:26.:43:28.

Mr Speaker, the fearless Jo Cox never stopped

:43:29.:43:35.

She exemplified the best values of our party and of our country -

:43:36.:43:43.

compassion, community, solidarity and internationalism,

:43:44.:43:50.

and she put her convictions to work for everyone she touched.

:43:51.:43:56.

For the people of Batley and Spen, for the wretched of Syria,

:43:57.:43:58.

for the victims of violence and injustice everywhere.

:43:59.:44:02.

On Thursday, Jo was assassinated because of what she was

:44:03.:44:04.

But out of the deep darkness of Jo's death must now come the shining

:44:05.:44:11.

So let us build a politics of hope not fear, respect not hate,

:44:12.:44:19.

Mr Speaker, I can only imagine Jo's reaction had she seen the poster

:44:20.:44:27.

unveiled hours before her death, a poster on the streets of Britain

:44:28.:44:33.

that demonised hundreds of desperate refugees including hungry,

:44:34.:44:35.

terrified children fleeing from the terror of Isis

:44:36.:44:38.

She would have responded with outrage, and with a robust

:44:39.:44:43.

rejection of the calculated narrative of cynicism, division

:44:44.:44:46.

and despair that it represents, because Jo understood that

:44:47.:44:50.

When insecurity, fear and anger are used to light a fuse,

:44:51.:44:57.

In the deeply moving tribute Brendan Cox made last Thursday,

:44:58.:45:04.

he urged the British people to unite and fight against the

:45:05.:45:07.

It is the politics of division and fear, the harking back

:45:08.:45:12.

to incendiary slogans and the rhetoric of Britain First

:45:13.:45:16.

that twists patriotism from love of country

:45:17.:45:20.

Mr Speaker, we must now stand up for something better,

:45:21.:45:27.

In the name of Jo Cox and all that is decent,

:45:28.:45:33.

we must not let this atrocity intimidate our democracy.

:45:34.:45:36.

We must now work to build a more respectful and united country.

:45:37.:45:39.

Because this is our time to honour the legacy of the proud Yorkshire

:45:40.:45:42.

lass who dedicated her life to the common good,

:45:43.:45:48.

and who was so cruelly taken away from us in the prime of her life.

:45:49.:45:54.

There are reports that David Cameron wiped away a tear.

:45:55.:46:18.

As Stephen Kinnock spoke of how Jo Cox's children and husband had

:46:19.:46:21.

lost a wife and mother, her husband Brendan

:46:22.:46:23.

and their two children watched from the viewers' gallery.

:46:24.:46:25.

As did her parents, sister and other family members.

:46:26.:46:27.

Jo Cox's three-year-old daughter Lejla played with a drawing board

:46:28.:46:30.

as she sat on her dad's knee, while five-year-old Cuillin snuggled

:46:31.:46:32.

After the debate yesterday Brendan Cox tweeted,

:46:33.:46:35.

"Thank you to the whole House and staff for your kindness

:46:36.:46:38.

and compassion to our family today and for describing so

:46:39.:46:40.

On this programme yesterday, close family friend Tim Dixon told

:46:41.:46:45.

us how Brendan Cox had broken the news of his wife's death

:46:46.:46:48.

Brendan, you know, the last couple of days, to help the kids,

:46:49.:46:56.

knowing they are only three and five, they won't remember

:46:57.:46:59.

So he is trying to help to now write down their memories.

:47:00.:47:10.

So he got them to write down little memories on pieces of paper.

:47:11.:47:15.

Cut out the paper, different shapes and hang them on a tree

:47:16.:47:18.

And I just think he is trying to carry on that what Jo

:47:19.:47:23.

and he created for them and I guess as friends, we will want to be doing

:47:24.:47:27.

all that we can to step in and try and help because the loss

:47:28.:47:30.

One of the most difficult conversations you can ever imagine

:47:31.:47:41.

having with your child. Ben Brooks-Dutton has

:47:42.:47:45.

a five-year-old named Jackson. Just over three years ago his wife

:47:46.:47:47.

Desreen was killed by a dangerous driver as the young family

:47:48.:47:50.

walked home one night. Lucy Sivaraman's husband,

:47:51.:47:53.

Viv, died of a stroke while out She has got four children aged

:47:54.:47:55.

between two and 18-years-old. 23-year-old Samantha Allen's mother

:47:56.:48:01.

died in a car accident when she was five and her brother

:48:02.:48:05.

was three, the same ages And from Edinburgh,

:48:06.:48:09.

Nicola Campbell's 38-year-old husband died of a rare heart

:48:10.:48:12.

condition in 2012 leaving behind Welcome all of you. Thank you very

:48:13.:48:26.

much for coming on our programme and talking about what is a really,

:48:27.:48:35.

really difficult subject. Ben, how did you, I mean, what happened? How

:48:36.:48:40.

did you talk to your son? My wife was killed in front of us. A car

:48:41.:48:45.

mounted the pavement and just skimmed my son's pushchair, but

:48:46.:48:48.

struck and killed my wife and she died at the scene so we were all

:48:49.:48:51.

there. He was two at the time. We quickly got him off the scene. I had

:48:52.:48:56.

friends around and then after that, you know, we went in a police car

:48:57.:49:00.

home that night together just the two of us and I had a bit of grace

:49:01.:49:03.

then because I had lots of friends and family all of a sudden in the

:49:04.:49:06.

house and so he had lots of distractions and lots of gifts and

:49:07.:49:09.

people playing with him and things so I had time to prepare. I spoke to

:49:10.:49:14.

organisations like Grief Encounter and Winston's Wish that help with

:49:15.:49:18.

bereaved children, I needed to explain it to him in the most age

:49:19.:49:22.

appropriate way. He was two so he wasn't going to understand the

:49:23.:49:25.

concept of death until he was five or six. I said his mummy had gone

:49:26.:49:30.

away, but couldn't come back, but reassured him that I was still there

:49:31.:49:36.

and that nothing was going to happen me and he does understand what death

:49:37.:49:40.

is and I have been able to explain through silly things like insects,

:49:41.:49:45.

if we find a dead insect I can explain that dead insect can't move

:49:46.:49:48.

anymore and it isn't alive anymore which means it is dead. It has been

:49:49.:49:52.

a slow message, but something that's had to be consistent. Right. Lucy,

:49:53.:49:57.

you have four children as I said aged 18, nine, five and two. When

:49:58.:50:04.

did you tell them that you were going to switch off the life support

:50:05.:50:08.

machine for your husband? It is funny. We told them at different

:50:09.:50:13.

times. So Viv collapsed on the Sunday. We knew from Sunday evening

:50:14.:50:17.

that we couldn't do anything, but knowing something and believing it

:50:18.:50:20.

are very different. We had two days and then he was certified that he

:50:21.:50:25.

died on the Tuesday. So my son who was 16, he was there all the time as

:50:26.:50:31.

was my nine-year-old, but it was on the Tuesday, you're doing the worst

:50:32.:50:36.

thing that parent, that you feel you can do as a parent really. It goes

:50:37.:50:40.

against all your instinct, but you know you have to do it. So you have

:50:41.:50:44.

to be really honest. I sat my eight-year-old down in the hospital,

:50:45.:50:47.

you know, she was still with her daddy, we went into a room. And you

:50:48.:50:53.

have to really be honest and use really real terms, you know, not

:50:54.:50:58.

that they are they have gone to sleep or anything, it is about that

:50:59.:51:01.

they have died and what this means and also someone gave me really good

:51:02.:51:06.

advice about letting the child follow your child. Let the child

:51:07.:51:10.

lead you in where they want to go with this and that was a really good

:51:11.:51:15.

piece of information. As with my four-year-old, her level of

:51:16.:51:18.

understanding as Ben was saying, they understand differently. That

:51:19.:51:24.

was actually the next day at home. And again, just it is so, it is so

:51:25.:51:31.

overwhelming that you just need to follow how the child is, but just

:51:32.:51:36.

being really clear and consistent. We were talking before consistency

:51:37.:51:41.

is really key. Samantha Jo Cox's children are five

:51:42.:51:45.

and three, the same as you and your brother when your mother died. You

:51:46.:51:49.

were in a coma after the accident. When you regained consciousness, do

:51:50.:51:52.

you recall what your father said to you? Again, it was about honesty and

:51:53.:51:59.

just being upfront with what has happened. But we did have to be told

:52:00.:52:04.

repeatedly because we would come back the next day and there would be

:52:05.:52:08.

a question of when is mummy coming home? Right. We didn't quite

:52:09.:52:14.

understandment it was a difficult time, but you just have to be

:52:15.:52:16.

consistent with the message. Yeah, OK. Nicola, let me bring you in.

:52:17.:52:22.

Again, in terms of this conversation, how did it go with

:52:23.:52:27.

your own children? My youngest was nine weeks old. So I didn't have the

:52:28.:52:33.

conversation. It is just for her, it has been her every day since she has

:52:34.:52:36.

been little so she has no memories at all of when it happened, when

:52:37.:52:41.

Colin died. With my elder daughter, she was 22 months old. She was aware

:52:42.:52:49.

and I, she was aware of his absence more than anything. And that evening

:52:50.:52:56.

at bedtime, no, it was the second evening, the second evening after

:52:57.:52:59.

because the first evening I wasn't able to speak to her, I couldn't

:53:00.:53:02.

even dot functioning of doing feeding and bed. The second evening

:53:03.:53:06.

at bedtime, after bedtime story I told her that daddy had died and the

:53:07.:53:10.

same with the others, it is all, it is always been about the message of

:53:11.:53:14.

being quite honest and truthful. As they've grown, I've told them, you

:53:15.:53:18.

know, they've asked why? Why did he die? Why did his heart stop working?

:53:19.:53:23.

I have been very honest about saying his body stopped work. His heart

:53:24.:53:28.

stopped working. And it is part of their every day, they still question

:53:29.:53:32.

and they ask me can they wish him back? Can they ask Santa? But as

:53:33.:53:37.

they have got older, they have kind of understood that what death means

:53:38.:53:41.

and that it is final. But it doesn't mean that you can't remember, even

:53:42.:53:45.

though you have no memories, it is all, you know, we talk about him

:53:46.:53:48.

every day, there is photos around and it is about creating new

:53:49.:53:53.

memories with him as part of our conversation.

:53:54.:53:59.

As family friend Tim Dixon revealed, Brendan Cox has got his children to

:54:00.:54:04.

write down things they love about their mum. How does Jackson remember

:54:05.:54:08.

his mum? How do you make sure he remembers his mum? There is lots of

:54:09.:54:14.

pictures of her around. I tell him stories about her all the time.

:54:15.:54:17.

Something that I've started to do though is to ask my friends to spend

:54:18.:54:22.

time with him and to tell their stories because I only, I was only

:54:23.:54:29.

with Des for eight years and she had 26 years of life before that with

:54:30.:54:32.

amazing friends so they have got more stories and sometimes I feel

:54:33.:54:37.

guilty because I feel I run out of things to say to him. He only had

:54:38.:54:40.

two years and how much that is actually exciting for the parent

:54:41.:54:44.

because it is nurturing a child, a very young child and trying to get

:54:45.:54:48.

her best friends and family involved and have time alone with them to

:54:49.:54:51.

tell stories and have a conversation about her is really important to me

:54:52.:54:54.

as well. Do you remember your mum? Yeah, do I. I do. I have memories of

:54:55.:55:03.

her and then I've spoken to, like you were saying friends of the

:55:04.:55:07.

family and my family members themselves to get a picture of what

:55:08.:55:11.

she was like. When I was little the best compliment you could tell me

:55:12.:55:14.

was to tell me that I was like my mum. That was the highest praise.

:55:15.:55:19.

I've got quite a big picture of her now so I can imagine her. But then

:55:20.:55:23.

it is nice when you get new information even now like I recently

:55:24.:55:27.

heard her voice. That was nice because I don't remember that, but I

:55:28.:55:30.

remember what she looks like. Any new information is always just nice

:55:31.:55:35.

for your collection. Lucy, how much do you talk about Viv

:55:36.:55:41.

in the family home? All the time. But again, at the beginning, because

:55:42.:55:48.

it was so sudden and as I think it was with lots of us, children often

:55:49.:55:52.

go into a state of shock themselves. So they now talk a lot more about

:55:53.:55:56.

what has happened, but we talk about him all the time. It is not about

:55:57.:55:59.

remembering him, he is part of the house.s part of the family. You

:56:00.:56:05.

know, he is everywhere. Harry will come out yesterday with you know

:56:06.:56:10.

things about, "How did daddy hold the knife and fork?" I was driving

:56:11.:56:17.

along the motorway and she was, "You should hold your hands up here

:56:18.:56:21.

rather than down there just like daddy did." What you have all said,

:56:22.:56:26.

you have to tell the truth to children. You cannot say they are

:56:27.:56:32.

asleep or they're this hospital or I don't know if any of you reached for

:56:33.:56:37.

heaven for example, but it sounds a silly question, but why is the truth

:56:38.:56:43.

the right way Ben? You raised the heaven debate. I think that for me,

:56:44.:56:48.

when Jackson was only two, he didn't know anything about spirituality and

:56:49.:56:52.

heaven may as well have been Manchester. It implied she had gone

:56:53.:56:59.

to a geographical location that she could get back from or he could go

:57:00.:57:04.

to. The minute he started saying he wanted to be in heaven with mummy or

:57:05.:57:09.

if she is in the sky, the first time you get in an aeroplane he thinks

:57:10.:57:15.

that he will see her. It has to be absolute and consistent. Thank you

:57:16.:57:17.

for coming on the programme. I appreciate your time and your

:57:18.:57:20.

insight and your honesty, thank you. Throughout the programme we've

:57:21.:57:23.

played you many of those tributes Applause is normally banned

:57:24.:57:26.

in the House of Commons, Catch all the action from

:57:27.:57:30.

Euro 2016 across the BBC. Radio 5 Live or the BBC Sport

:57:31.:58:27.

website. You can also follow all the news

:58:28.:58:32.

and action from the Euros, wherever you are, via

:58:33.:58:35.

the BBC Sport website and app.

:58:36.:58:39.