22/06/2016 Victoria Derbyshire


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22/06/2016

Victoria is joined by Neal Gray who talks about the murder of his granddaughter, Ellie Butler. There is also a look at the EU referendum and what people can expect after the vote.


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Together we can build a stronger economy. Together we can create more

:00:22.:00:27.

jobs. Together we can meet challenges, whether it is climate

:00:28.:00:31.

change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a great

:00:32.:00:36.

country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard

:00:37.:00:39.

and gets things done by working with others. We don't quit and walk away

:00:40.:00:42.

from organisations, we make them work for us. The ideal position for

:00:43.:00:48.

us is to take back control tomorrow of huge amounts of money so we can

:00:49.:00:52.

spend it on our priorities, take back control of our immigration

:00:53.:00:55.

system and take back control of our democracy. That's what this is all

:00:56.:00:59.

about for me, it is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on

:01:00.:01:04.

our own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do.

:01:05.:01:07.

If you're still yet to make your mind up,

:01:08.:01:09.

we've got our two impartial fact checkers who're here to answer any

:01:10.:01:12.

Also on the programme, in his first TV interview

:01:13.:01:22.

the grandfather of six-year-old Ellie Butler tells this programme

:01:23.:01:24.

she'd still be alive if justice had been done.

:01:25.:01:28.

The girl's father was jailed for life for her murder yesterday.

:01:29.:01:31.

He'd previously been convicted of shaking her

:01:32.:01:34.

when she was just six-weeks-old, but that was later overturned.

:01:35.:01:37.

We'll talk to Ellie's grandad live in the next half hour.

:01:38.:01:41.

And the children's author missing for 11 weeks after reportedly saying

:01:42.:01:44.

Friends tell us they have no idea what's happened to her, but plead

:01:45.:01:52.

Let somebody know. Just let someone know you're safe. Have your space,

:01:53.:02:03.

have your time, just let us know you're OK.

:02:04.:02:08.

In Paris the Northern Ireland fans are still recovering after

:02:09.:02:11.

celebrating one of the greatest nights in their footballing history.

:02:12.:02:14.

They were beaten by Germany, but have made it through to the next

:02:15.:02:16.

round here at the Euros. We're live until 11am

:02:17.:02:26.

every weekday morning. Throughout the programme we'll bring

:02:27.:02:30.

you the latest breaking news and developing stories

:02:31.:02:33.

and as always, we're really In 15 minutes time we will bring you

:02:34.:02:45.

our two independent experts who are here to answer any, well, we say

:02:46.:02:50.

our, because they have been on so many times, they're friends of the

:02:51.:02:53.

programme, to answer any last minute questions you have about the EU

:02:54.:02:56.

referendum because quite a few people have still yet to make up

:02:57.:02:59.

their minds. Please send them in because today is your last chance.

:03:00.:03:03.

Get in touch on the stories we're talking about this morning as well.

:03:04.:03:05.

Use the hashtag Victoria Live and If you text, you will be charged

:03:06.:03:09.

Our top story today, it's the final hectic day

:03:10.:03:12.

of campaigning before you get to decide whether we should stay

:03:13.:03:14.

Both sides of the debate are making their last ditch

:03:15.:03:18.

This morning, directors of companies employing nearly two million people

:03:19.:03:22.

have come out in favour of staying in the EU.

:03:23.:03:24.

They warn in an open letter that leaving will harm

:03:25.:03:27.

But the inventor, Sir James Dyson, says a victory for the remain camp

:03:28.:03:34.

will be what he calls "an act of national self harm."

:03:35.:03:37.

Last night, campaigners for Remain and Leave clashed during a televised

:03:38.:03:40.

debate at Wembley Arena in London as Vicki Young reports.

:03:41.:03:46.

Pop stars, replaced by politicians at Wembley Arena.

:03:47.:03:49.

This was the final showdown of the long campaign

:03:50.:03:55.

with 6,000 watching up close and millions more at home,

:03:56.:03:59.

here was a chance to argue the case one last time

:04:00.:04:02.

Boris Johnson said will there be job losses?

:04:03.:04:08.

All the Remain side have to talk about is Project Fear.

:04:09.:04:21.

We are the fifth biggest economy in the world.

:04:22.:04:23.

We will be able to accomplish free trade once we're free

:04:24.:04:26.

Immigration has played a huge part in this campaign, provoking some

:04:27.:04:29.

The first thing we should do tonight in a discussion about immigration

:04:30.:04:35.

is celebrate immigrants and immigration and everything

:04:36.:04:37.

that they do for our country because I speak entirely personally.

:04:38.:04:44.

My family has benefited massively from immigration.

:04:45.:04:51.

The problem is this - you might start off saying how

:04:52.:04:53.

wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been

:04:54.:04:56.

Project Fear, it has been Project Hate as far

:04:57.:04:58.

But Remain demanded more detail on their opponents'

:04:59.:05:06.

And I think the Leave campaign are selling people a big con

:05:07.:05:10.

You have never promised to reduce numbers.

:05:11.:05:16.

Have the Leave campaign ever promised to reduce numbers?

:05:17.:05:22.

What we said is you take back control and you can decide.

:05:23.:05:25.

Some have accused the Remain side of lacking passion,

:05:26.:05:29.

And if we vote leave and take back control,

:05:30.:05:43.

I believe that this Thursday can be our country's Independence Day.

:05:44.:05:46.

The campaign teams here are assessing how the debate went

:05:47.:05:53.

for them, but both sides seem to agree that this race is extremely

:05:54.:05:57.

close and this could be one of their last chance to say

:05:58.:06:00.

The Leave side stuck to their tried and tested message that Thursday

:06:01.:06:08.

is all about taking back control, but the Remain side say

:06:09.:06:12.

they were the only ones talking about bread and butter issues

:06:13.:06:14.

Today, there will be one final day of frantic campaigning and then

:06:15.:06:21.

Well, let's talk to our political guru Norman Smith who is at

:06:22.:06:33.

Westminster. So what's happening today then Norman? We're going to

:06:34.:06:36.

have to lie down and recover after last night! What a fer show shoulds,

:06:37.:06:41.

angry and acrimonious occasion, but in a warks it is kind of, I think,

:06:42.:06:46.

emblematic of this referendum and just underlines how divisive it has

:06:47.:06:50.

been, how passionate it has been and how close it has been and how also,

:06:51.:06:55.

you know, at the end of the day, we have heard the arguments, we have

:06:56.:06:58.

heard the presentations and the speeches, at the end of the day,

:06:59.:07:01.

basically, to comes down to two things. We know what they are,

:07:02.:07:04.

immigration and the economy. And that is what it all boils down to.

:07:05.:07:08.

Today, it was interesting listening to Mr Cameron, who was about, you

:07:09.:07:13.

know, early doors doing various interviews, again, trying to defend

:07:14.:07:16.

that pledge to get net migration down to the tens of thousands saying

:07:17.:07:20.

on Friday, if he wins, he will seek to reform free movement within the

:07:21.:07:23.

EU, how will other European countries react? I think they will

:07:24.:07:28.

say to him, "No way Jose." He was saying that he was still regard it

:07:29.:07:35.

as not a realistic ambition, so still trying to defend that pledge

:07:36.:07:38.

which proved so damaging to him. He sought to boil his message down into

:07:39.:07:42.

the one thought about being together. I am deeply patriotic

:07:43.:07:49.

person. I love this country that I have the honour to be the Prime

:07:50.:07:52.

Minister of. I really believe after six years in this job I can see that

:07:53.:07:55.

Britain is stronger, Britain is greater, when we work through these

:07:56.:07:59.

institutions like Nato, like the European Union, to fix the things

:08:00.:08:06.

that we need to fix. If I could sum this-up in one wogt, it would be

:08:07.:08:09.

together. Together we can build a stronger economy, together we can

:08:10.:08:12.

create more jobs and together we can meet challenges whether it is

:08:13.:08:16.

climate change or other problems we face in our world. Britain is a

:08:17.:08:19.

great country, but we've always been a country that makes our voice heard

:08:20.:08:22.

and gets things done by working with others. We see don't quit and walk

:08:23.:08:27.

away from organisations, we make them work for us. Boris Johnson was

:08:28.:08:32.

out and about early doors this morning after last night's debate.

:08:33.:08:38.

He was in Billingsgate fish market where he was asked to kiss a fish!

:08:39.:08:43.

He was pressed on I will gration and what was interesting is he is not

:08:44.:08:48.

setting any figure on the number of migrants he thinks would be

:08:49.:08:51.

acceptable. He is not making any pledge that if we leave the EU we

:08:52.:08:55.

would cut levels of immigration even though I suspect many people who

:08:56.:09:00.

have heard the rhetoric of the Leave campaign thinks that's what they

:09:01.:09:03.

would do. They are not setting a target for reducing net migration.

:09:04.:09:10.

Instead Mr Johnson was extolling the virtues of this Australian-points

:09:11.:09:13.

style system. The ideal position for us is to take back control tomorrow

:09:14.:09:16.

of huge amounts of money, so we can spend it on our priorities, take

:09:17.:09:20.

back control of our immigration system, take back control

:09:21.:09:22.

fundamentally of our democracy. That's what this is all about for

:09:23.:09:26.

me. It is about our chance as a nation, once again, to stand on our

:09:27.:09:31.

own two feet and not rely on Brussels, not be told what to do by

:09:32.:09:35.

unelected, unaccountable officials in Brussels. And to speak up for

:09:36.:09:40.

democracy on behalf of literally hundreds of millions of people

:09:41.:09:44.

around Europe who agree with us. The last thing that struck me Vic

:09:45.:09:52.

watching last night's debate was the extraordinarily feisty performance

:09:53.:09:58.

of Ruth Davidson who voters south of the border haven't seen. It was like

:09:59.:10:02.

a re-run, Nicola Sturgeon when she came down and dominated the platform

:10:03.:10:07.

and Ruth Davidson was like a pocket battleship last night blasting away

:10:08.:10:11.

at Boris Johnson and I will finish with this thought. There was a lot

:10:12.:10:15.

of talk about who might succeed David Cameron and it seems to me, we

:10:16.:10:20.

have seen during this referendum a clutch of formidable women emerge in

:10:21.:10:27.

Tory ranks, not just Ruth Davidson, also Amber Rudd and Andrea Led some,

:10:28.:10:32.

you just wonder if the next Tory leader might not be a man, it might

:10:33.:10:35.

be a woman. Well, who would have thought!

:10:36.:10:41.

We will bring you more on the EU Ryder Cup with our two independent

:10:42.:10:44.

experts. If you have got a question, get in touch in the usual way.

:10:45.:10:53.

Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary

:10:54.:10:55.

A Scottish woman jailed for drugs smuggling has been released

:10:56.:10:59.

from prison in Peru, and is flying back to the UK.

:11:00.:11:02.

22-year-old Melissa Reid, who is seen here at Lima Airport

:11:03.:11:04.

last night, was arrested in 2013, alongside Michaella McCollum

:11:05.:11:07.

from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million worth of cocaine in their luggage.

:11:08.:11:09.

Miss McCollum was freed in March, but remains on parole in Peru.

:11:10.:11:13.

Vigils will be held in cities around the world to remember

:11:14.:11:16.

The grandfather of Ellie Butler is calling for a review

:11:17.:11:19.

of the circumstances that led up to the six-year-old's death.

:11:20.:11:21.

Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found guilty

:11:22.:11:23.

He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:11:24.:11:26.

at their home in south-west London, in October 2013.

:11:27.:11:28.

She died less than a year after she was returned

:11:29.:11:31.

to her parents care following a custody battle.

:11:32.:11:36.

Ellie's grandfather, Neil Gray, who looked after her for five years,

:11:37.:11:41.

will give his first TV interview since the verdict to Victoria

:11:42.:11:43.

Sir Cliff Richard has called for a change to the law so that

:11:44.:11:49.

people accused of sexual offences have their identity protected

:11:50.:11:52.

Last week prosecutors said he would face no charges over

:11:53.:11:59.

historical allegations of sexual abuse.

:12:00.:12:02.

But the singer told ITV's Good Morning Britain programme

:12:03.:12:04.

that he feels his reputation has been tarnished by the accusations.

:12:05.:12:10.

Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:12:11.:12:12.

Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions

:12:13.:12:19.

The gates officially opened an hour ago but people have reported queuing

:12:20.:12:22.

for more than five hours to get on to the site.

:12:23.:12:25.

More than 100,000 people are expected to descend

:12:26.:12:27.

on Worthy Farm for the five-day event.

:12:28.:12:36.

MPs could be able to sign themselves off work for up to weeks. Workers

:12:37.:12:44.

need a note if they are off for more than a week. GPs say they should be

:12:45.:12:49.

trusted more in order to reduce unnecessary appointments. The issue

:12:50.:12:53.

will be debated a the British Medical Association's annual

:12:54.:12:53.

conference today. That's a summary of

:12:54.:12:57.

the latest BBC News. Do get in touch with us

:12:58.:12:59.

throughout the morning. If you have got a question for one

:13:00.:13:12.

of our impartial experts, or if you haven't made up your mind in

:13:13.:13:15.

tomorrow's EU referendum vote, ask your question and maybe it will

:13:16.:13:24.

help. If you text, it will be charged at

:13:25.:13:30.

the standard network. Only one place for us to start and

:13:31.:13:34.

that's with the achements of Northern Ireland. Despite losing 1-0

:13:35.:13:39.

to Germany, they have reached the knock-out stages of Euro 2016.

:13:40.:13:43.

They've made it through as one of the best third placed teams. Well,

:13:44.:13:52.

let's speak to Katie Gornell now. Katie really do have their

:13:53.:13:58.

goalkeeper to thank, don't they? Well, they certainly do, Sally. This

:13:59.:14:02.

was a huge game for Northern Ireland here last night and they knew going

:14:03.:14:07.

into it that a draw would see them through to the last 16, but a narrow

:14:08.:14:10.

defeat and their hopes would still be alive. It was going to be a huge

:14:11.:14:13.

ask against the world champions and it looked like the task was going to

:14:14.:14:17.

get harder when Gomes scored for Germany after half an hour. At that

:14:18.:14:22.

stage, the pressure on the Northern Irish defence was relentless. What

:14:23.:14:26.

the Germans didn't count was on was Michael McGovern having the game of

:14:27.:14:29.

his life in the Northern Irish goal. He pulled off a string of fantastic

:14:30.:14:34.

saves to keep the scoreline down, but for him, the score could have

:14:35.:14:39.

been 6, 7, that's no exaggeration and that narrow defeat meant that

:14:40.:14:43.

Northern Ireland had a good goal difference that saw them through in

:14:44.:14:48.

the end to the last 16, after the result against Turkey last night.

:14:49.:14:52.

Now, Michael O'Neill, speaking after the game, but before he knew his

:14:53.:14:56.

side progressed, he was full of praise for Michael McGovern, of

:14:57.:14:59.

course, but he said what an achievement it would be to get out

:15:00.:15:03.

of that group. When you see the quality of the group we're in,

:15:04.:15:06.

Ukraine, Poland and Germany and for us to come out of that group was an

:15:07.:15:10.

immense achievement. A great group of players. They deserve the

:15:11.:15:15.

opportunity to go to round 16. I fear who we may play, but that's

:15:16.:15:18.

what this experience is about. We are taking lads here who play their

:15:19.:15:21.

club football in the Football League and are coming up here and playing

:15:22.:15:24.

against the best players in the world. So as I say, we want the

:15:25.:15:26.

experience to Could it actually be an all home

:15:27.:15:39.

nations are fair in the last 16? Yes, that is a possibility. They

:15:40.:15:44.

will either play Wales in Paris, Northern Ireland, on Saturday, they

:15:45.:15:51.

could play France in Lyon. We will know for certain after tonight bus

:15:52.:15:55.

group games how the permutations worked out. When Mark -- when

:15:56.:15:59.

Michael O'Neill was asked about it, he said he would prefer to play

:16:00.:16:04.

Wales. He feels he has got a better chance against Chris Coleman's side.

:16:05.:16:08.

He is also may be thinking about the fact that Wales are in a slightly

:16:09.:16:12.

easier side of the draw. Maybe he has got one eye on the

:16:13.:16:17.

quarterfinals. With their motto being Dare to dream, you never know.

:16:18.:16:23.

Great stuff. Tonight it is the return -- turn of the Republic of

:16:24.:16:27.

Ireland. They need a win to go through. It is a big ask. Italy are

:16:28.:16:31.

set to rest many other players. Maybe there is a chance for the

:16:32.:16:33.

Republic as well. So, there's just one day left

:16:34.:16:37.

until the UK decides whether to leave or remain

:16:38.:16:39.

in the European Union. One day left of a campaign

:16:40.:16:42.

which has gone on and on and on and on and on -

:16:43.:16:45.

and quite possibly produced more hot air and Punch and Judy

:16:46.:16:50.

politics than anything else. Certainly more acrimonious than the

:16:51.:17:03.

Scottish Independence Referendum, in my experience.

:17:04.:17:04.

Here's some highlights - or perhaps lowlights.

:17:05.:17:06.

It lasts a couple of minutes and features flashing and strobing

:17:07.:17:08.

I will go to Parliament and propose that the British people decide our

:17:09.:17:25.

future in Europe. Through an inn, in-out referendum on Thursday, the

:17:26.:17:34.

23rd of June. The home you live in, your weekly

:17:35.:17:36.

shop, the monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we

:17:37.:17:41.

spending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels, some of which is spent on

:17:42.:17:46.

Spanish bull-fighting? The real sure tonight is not in Brussels but in

:17:47.:17:52.

Westminster. -- show. What matters is... All of which is... Leave.

:17:53.:18:06.

Remain. After a great deal of heartache, I will be abdicating fold

:18:07.:18:11.

leave. If people vote to leave on the basis of immigration, I'm afraid

:18:12.:18:14.

they will find there will be in the same situation. The governor has

:18:15.:18:23.

strayed into a simple personal prediction. The people who want to

:18:24.:18:27.

drag the United Kingdom out of the European Union are now trying to

:18:28.:18:31.

drag the Queen in. Napoleon and Hitler were all trying to create a

:18:32.:18:38.

United States of Europe. I play with a straight bat. We're losing our

:18:39.:18:44.

identity and we're glad to get swallowed up. I am very positive on

:18:45.:18:50.

the EU. UK will be at the back of the queue. The American president is

:18:51.:18:56.

saying rubbish. I am angry at the way the British people are being

:18:57.:19:02.

misled. Not only have we get depressed wages for British

:19:03.:19:10.

people... Scare stories. You are no fishermen's friend! You

:19:11.:19:16.

are on the European Parliament Fishing committee and you attended

:19:17.:19:20.

one out of 43 meetings. You are a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was

:19:21.:19:26.

show his absolute contempt for the men and women who have come here

:19:27.:19:28.

today. I am campaigning to remain in the

:19:29.:19:41.

European Union to protect the rights of workers.

:19:42.:19:48.

Immigrants. Immigrants built this city. The

:19:49.:19:55.

people who are going to bring this future forward on the country but

:19:56.:20:00.

you are not worried. Have a leaflet. No.

:20:01.:20:02.

OK. And yet despite -

:20:03.:20:25.

or perhaps because of - the kind of campaigning we've just

:20:26.:21:19.

seen, many of you are Some of you are still switching as

:21:20.:21:22.

well. And it's the undecideds who hold

:21:23.:21:26.

the balance of power when it comes to the outcome

:21:27.:21:28.

in what is undoubtedly the most important political

:21:29.:21:31.

decision of a generation. So if you are one of those

:21:32.:21:32.

undecideds, we've bought back, by popular

:21:33.:21:34.

demand, our two wise men - our objective, impartial

:21:35.:21:37.

and unbiased experts who are here to answer

:21:38.:21:38.

your questions before Hello again to Anand Menon,

:21:39.:21:40.

who is a Professor of European Politics and Foreign Affairs

:21:41.:21:44.

at Kings College, and the Director of 'The EU

:21:45.:21:46.

in a Changing Europe' group. And Will Moy, the Director

:21:47.:21:49.

of Full Fact, an impartial organisation fact checking on issues

:21:50.:21:51.

around the EU Referendum. It is probably worth saying to our

:21:52.:22:04.

audience why you are both neutral and impartial. We are an independent

:22:05.:22:09.

fact checking charity. We have been doing this since 2010 on all sorts

:22:10.:22:17.

of topics. We are made up of academics who report the results of

:22:18.:22:18.

the research they have done. We've also got some undecided voters

:22:19.:22:20.

from right across the UK. Business owner Angelo Cicarelli

:22:21.:22:22.

in Chelmsford and 22-year-old And Mick Dombey, talking to a slide

:22:23.:22:35.

from his butcher's shop in London, where he may have two interrupt our

:22:36.:22:39.

conversation to serve a customer or two. Good morning. Hello. My

:22:40.:22:50.

difficult situation is, I am of Polish descent by self. My

:22:51.:22:58.

grandfather came here after the war. I do feel that the eastern Europeans

:22:59.:23:05.

are often seen as just here to get as much as they can off the welfare

:23:06.:23:09.

state, as much as they can from the government, when from my experience

:23:10.:23:15.

that is certainly not true. Most people come here because of the

:23:16.:23:20.

reputation this country has. A very caring nation. A very warm nation. A

:23:21.:23:26.

country with much empathy. So my difficult situation is, I feel in my

:23:27.:23:33.

heart that I should vote to stay in. But when I see how many people

:23:34.:23:40.

here... It is bit like Wembley Stadium, it can take 90,000. If you

:23:41.:23:45.

have 120,000 people already in the stadium, I feel the pressure on all

:23:46.:23:50.

of the services is very high. And whether they can cope with what is

:23:51.:23:56.

happening. If the government could assure us that there are plans and

:23:57.:24:00.

steps to actually build more schools, more hospitals, more old

:24:01.:24:05.

people's homes, then I think we would all be a lot happier and could

:24:06.:24:10.

make our decision easier. Particularly if they told us where

:24:11.:24:16.

the money is coming from. That is a question for the comment of the day.

:24:17.:24:20.

In terms of EU referendum, your question is about net migration and

:24:21.:24:22.

what it would be if we remain relief? Yes it is. What would happen

:24:23.:24:32.

in the future regarding our infrastructure, the roads, the

:24:33.:24:35.

railways, the services, if immigration continues as it has done

:24:36.:24:43.

over the next ten years? Will we be able to cope? That is my concern.

:24:44.:24:53.

Let's hear what Ayn Rand and will have to say. What happens to net

:24:54.:24:59.

migration in the UK up to 2030 to Two things to say. You are quite

:25:00.:25:04.

right on the economics. People from Europe who come here contributed to

:25:05.:25:11.

our economy more than they take out. What happens when we stay? We have

:25:12.:25:16.

no obvious control over the number of people from other European member

:25:17.:25:19.

states who come here to work. The majority of migrants from non-EU

:25:20.:25:24.

member states now. If we leave, we have the power to control migration

:25:25.:25:27.

from Europe and the rest of the world. Whether a government would

:25:28.:25:31.

want to, would depend on the calculation of how good they think

:25:32.:25:36.

migration is for our economy. It is difficult to tell. There is clear

:25:37.:25:38.

evidence that migration does benefit the economy. The evidence is that

:25:39.:25:48.

there is possibly a small economic benefit to immigration overall, and

:25:49.:25:52.

that EU immigrants are probably better for our public finances than

:25:53.:25:56.

non-EU immigrants. But we know they are affecting things like schools

:25:57.:26:00.

more than things like nursing homes, because they tend to be younger.

:26:01.:26:05.

That is why they affect schools more than hospitals. We also know that we

:26:06.:26:08.

are not building of houses for everyone who needs a house already.

:26:09.:26:12.

That is to do with the government of the day. Half of population changes

:26:13.:26:20.

driven by immigration. Roughly half of immigration is coming from the

:26:21.:26:33.

EU. It is a factor. OK. Mick, I don't know how far that goes to

:26:34.:26:38.

helping you? I think it does go some way. It is more or less what we have

:26:39.:26:44.

been hearing. I just think if the figures were clearer as to where the

:26:45.:26:52.

money is going to come from, if the gum and decided, we will not

:26:53.:26:57.

continue plans with HS2, the money will come from there, that would

:26:58.:27:02.

really help. I would like, finally, just to say that I am so proud of

:27:03.:27:10.

our nation and the way that we have dealt in the past with all of the

:27:11.:27:16.

conflicts and everything else. I just feel that we are very lucky to

:27:17.:27:20.

live in a country where everybody else would like to come and live. It

:27:21.:27:25.

is a great credit to the British people, which I am very proud to be

:27:26.:27:29.

one. There is no other country, as far as I am aware, with the word

:27:30.:27:34.

great in front of it. You do not have great Belgian, great Germany or

:27:35.:27:42.

great America. I hope on Saturday, or probably Friday, I hope on

:27:43.:27:46.

Saturday the nation gets back together as we have done before and

:27:47.:27:53.

we work to join and be as harmonious as we have been in the past. Mick,

:27:54.:27:58.

that is quite a moving and wise sentiment. I thank you for it. Let

:27:59.:28:04.

me bring in Naomi and Angelo. Naomi, what is your question? I was just

:28:05.:28:10.

wondering how leaving or staying in the EU might affect the NHS, really?

:28:11.:28:18.

The short answer is there is no direct effect on the NHS. We run the

:28:19.:28:22.

NHS. What they have expressed concerns about is if leaving the EU

:28:23.:28:29.

is bad for the UK economy, that probably means there will be less

:28:30.:28:32.

money for the Gottman is to spend overall. That probably means there

:28:33.:28:37.

will be less money for the NHS. That is not a given. We had a recession

:28:38.:28:42.

in 2008. There was less money for the government to spend and they

:28:43.:28:45.

choose to continue spending it on the NHS. That means more cuts

:28:46.:28:50.

elsewhere to make that possible. That is the big concern with the

:28:51.:28:56.

NHS. The EU does not run the NHS. It has some role in regulating medicals

:28:57.:29:00.

and things like that, clinical trials, but it does not run the NHS.

:29:01.:29:05.

Those decisions will still be made in London and Scotland etc. Why is

:29:06.:29:11.

that question key for you? I think the NHS is so important to our

:29:12.:29:15.

country. It brings people together. It looks after people who really

:29:16.:29:20.

need it. I think it is really important that remains free at the

:29:21.:29:25.

point of access. And that everybody who needs health care can get it. I

:29:26.:29:29.

wonder if the response to your question helps you at all in

:29:30.:29:36.

reaching a decision? I think you described reassuring in that whether

:29:37.:29:39.

we leave or stay, hopefully the government will continue to fund the

:29:40.:29:42.

NHS. Let's bring in Angelo. How are you?

:29:43.:29:48.

Hello. Thank you for having me and thank you for the opportunity. What

:29:49.:29:53.

do you do for a living? I run a sports company. We work with

:29:54.:29:59.

children in schools and nurseries. We provide a wide range of different

:30:00.:30:04.

sports services. My question is really about business. If we vote

:30:05.:30:12.

Leave, how is it going to affect the business? It is hard and challenging

:30:13.:30:15.

two to the facts to be scaremongering from both sides. How

:30:16.:30:20.

is it going to affect business to how will it affect taxes? Will

:30:21.:30:21.

things increase in price? Well, part of it will depend what

:30:22.:30:32.

sort of business you are. If you are a business that didn't trade

:30:33.:30:35.

externally or doesn't export or import, isn't reliant on firms that

:30:36.:30:40.

import or export, it may not affect you very much indeed. A lot of

:30:41.:30:44.

exporters like Dyson are in favour because they think if the pound

:30:45.:30:47.

falls, it will be good for them. They can export more because the

:30:48.:30:51.

pound will be weaker. If you are a company that trades with the

:30:52.:30:53.

European market on the other hand, the answer is partly I don't know

:30:54.:30:56.

because it depends on the deal we get, but it might become hard tore

:30:57.:30:59.

trade with the European market, so it is different for different

:31:00.:31:04.

businesses I am afraid. Will? About nine out of ten businesses don't

:31:05.:31:08.

export to the EU. But some big businesses do and it is a very

:31:09.:31:12.

important market for quite a number of businesses. There are two

:31:13.:31:15.

fundamental things that will affect every business. One is if we have an

:31:16.:31:20.

economic slowdown as a lot of people predict even on both sides in the

:31:21.:31:25.

short run, an economic slow down and in the longer run it gets more

:31:26.:31:27.

uncertain. Would that be an opportunity for you? Some businesses

:31:28.:31:31.

would think it would be, but a lot of businesses would be nervous about

:31:32.:31:34.

that. The other is the great big decision that happens after the

:31:35.:31:36.

referendum. If we vote to leave. We have to decide do we stay in the

:31:37.:31:41.

single market or not? If we stay in the single market we will probably

:31:42.:31:44.

still have access to sell into the EU and we will probably still accept

:31:45.:31:49.

freedom of movement for us into the EU and for EU citizens into the UK

:31:50.:31:52.

as well. If we leave the single market then all of those I shall

:31:53.:31:57.

easterned who comes here and who can sell here and who can sell to the

:31:58.:32:01.

rest of the EU come up for grabs in the negotiations. What are you going

:32:02.:32:06.

to do between now and tomorrow to actually reach your decision or can

:32:07.:32:08.

you imagine walking into the polling station and just making up your mind

:32:09.:32:13.

on-the-spot? You know what I think a lot of people are going to do that

:32:14.:32:18.

to be honest. And like I say, it is really hard to see the facts through

:32:19.:32:23.

scaremongering from both sides. To be honest I am leaning more towards

:32:24.:32:30.

remain. But you know, we've got a B52 time so, you know, we could be

:32:31.:32:35.

swayed. Naomi, what about you, between now

:32:36.:32:40.

and tomorrow, Naomi, can you envisage walking in there and just

:32:41.:32:43.

making up your mind on-the-spot? Yes, to be honest, I think I

:32:44.:32:47.

probably will end up making my mind up when I get there. Will you go

:32:48.:32:50.

with your gut at the time that you happen to walk into the polling

:32:51.:32:53.

station? I think I'm going to kind of read up a little bit tonight on

:32:54.:33:00.

both sides and I don't know, flip a coin and while it is in the air, you

:33:01.:33:03.

work out which one it is that you want! Oh my gosh! We are talking

:33:04.:33:09.

about flipping a coin, wow, to make a decision that's so significant. If

:33:10.:33:14.

you flip it while it is in the air, you know with your gut which side it

:33:15.:33:18.

is that you want it to land on. Maybe I'll try that tonight. All

:33:19.:33:22.

right. I've got some more questions here from people who are sending

:33:23.:33:27.

them in from across the UK. Darrel e-mailed, "Is the possibility of a

:33:28.:33:30.

second Scottish independence referendum real in the case of a

:33:31.:33:34.

vote to Leave or is it simply an exaggeration?" Well, I think, I

:33:35.:33:38.

would say two things on that. One, it is quite likely that the country

:33:39.:33:42.

will be very divided over the vote. So you can see a situation where we

:33:43.:33:45.

vote to leave, but Scotland has voted strongly to stay. And that's

:33:46.:33:49.

where this comes from, the notion that the Scots have been outvoted by

:33:50.:33:52.

the English. The SNP, I think, will only hold a referendum if they're

:33:53.:33:55.

sure they're going to win it. They don't want to hold a second

:33:56.:33:58.

referendum and lose it. It will depend partly on the polls. I think

:33:59.:34:02.

if the polls start to show a significant lead for the Scottish

:34:03.:34:04.

independence position, then they might be tempted to ask for a second

:34:05.:34:11.

referendum, yes. OK. This tweet from Sarah, "Please explain the free

:34:12.:34:16.

trade zone. The one that already exists from Iceland to the Russian

:34:17.:34:25.

border." OK. You took a really deep breath there, Will. Why? It gets

:34:26.:34:30.

complicated. Try and communicate in plain English! So we've got the EU.

:34:31.:34:37.

28 member states. Every EU country has free movement between all of

:34:38.:34:41.

them, free trade, free movement of goods so on and so forth and then we

:34:42.:34:46.

have got other countries which are hangers on, countries like Norway.

:34:47.:34:50.

Norway is a member of the European Economic Area. It has signed up to

:34:51.:34:53.

free movement. It is signed up to a lot, but not all of the EU law, and

:34:54.:34:59.

it gets a lot less say into what becomes EU law than EU countries do.

:35:00.:35:04.

It pays some money into the rest of the European Union. Then we have got

:35:05.:35:08.

Switzerland which is one stage further removed and it accepts some

:35:09.:35:12.

EU law, but on a different basis. It pays some money on a different basis

:35:13.:35:16.

and it accepts freedom of movement. Then we have got Turkey where there

:35:17.:35:21.

is a Customs agreement and there has been for many years. You have the EU

:35:22.:35:24.

as the core and then you have a whole set of agreements going out

:35:25.:35:27.

there of different levels of integration. So it is fair to say

:35:28.:35:33.

there is free trade going beyond the EU itself, it is also fair to say

:35:34.:35:38.

that there are quid pro quos of that free trade in every case. This on

:35:39.:35:42.

whatsapp from someone who doesn't leave their name, "I have just

:35:43.:35:46.

renewed our family's ten year passports. Will we need to get new

:35:47.:35:50.

passports if we vote to leave?" No. There is no such thing as an EU

:35:51.:35:58.

passport. You won't have to. OK. Right, I'm going to ask you finally

:35:59.:36:05.

to put your money where your mouth is and tell me what will happen. If

:36:06.:36:10.

you don't mind, or will it affect your impartiality. We don't do

:36:11.:36:16.

political punditry. I'm asking you for your opinion? I think it will be

:36:17.:36:23.

very close. OK, that's the politician's answer despite you

:36:24.:36:26.

being an academic. Listen, good luck. I really appreciate your time

:36:27.:36:30.

this morning. Thank you. Cheers, thank you very much.

:36:31.:36:34.

Still to come, we'll be speaking to the grandfather of six year

:36:35.:36:37.

old Ellie Butler who tells this programme in his first TV interview

:36:38.:36:40.

she'd still be alive if justice had been done.

:36:41.:36:49.

We'll talk to the friends of the children's author who went missing

:36:50.:36:55.

11 weeks ago who said she needed time to herself. Police ruled out

:36:56.:37:00.

foul play. Friends tell us what happened to her is a total mystery.

:37:01.:37:04.

Here's Joanna in the newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:37:05.:37:06.

It's the final hectic day of campaigning before you get

:37:07.:37:09.

to decide whether we should stay or leave the European Union.

:37:10.:37:14.

Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:37:15.:37:16.

David Cameron said he doesn't believe there are any risks to the

:37:17.:37:24.

UK to stay in the EU. Boris Johnson, who is on a tour of England says it

:37:25.:37:28.

is time for a totally new relationship with our partners

:37:29.:37:29.

across the channel. A Scottish woman jailed for drugs

:37:30.:37:33.

smuggling has been released from prison in Peru,

:37:34.:37:36.

and is flying back to the UK. 22-year-old Melissa Reid,

:37:37.:37:38.

who is seen here at Lima Airport last night, was arrested in 2013,

:37:39.:37:41.

alongside Michaella McCollum from County Tyrone with ?1.5 million

:37:42.:37:43.

worth of cocaine in their luggage. Miss McCollum was freed in March,

:37:44.:37:46.

but remains on parole in Peru. Vigils will be held in cities around

:37:47.:37:53.

the world to remember the life of the Labour MP,

:37:54.:37:56.

Jo Cox, who was killed last week. Today would have been her

:37:57.:38:00.

42nd birthday today. She was killed outside her

:38:01.:38:02.

constituency surgery Her family, friends and former

:38:03.:38:05.

colleagues will gather in locations including Trafalgar Square

:38:06.:38:09.

in London, as well as New York, Sir Cliff Richard is calling

:38:10.:38:11.

for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences

:38:12.:38:22.

have their identity protected Last week prosecutors said Sir Cliff

:38:23.:38:24.

will face no charges over historical But the singer told ITV's

:38:25.:38:28.

Good Morning Britain programme that he feels his reputation has

:38:29.:38:34.

been tarnished by the accusations. That's a summary of

:38:35.:38:42.

the latest BBC News. Good morning.

:38:43.:38:53.

It is a beautiful day here in Paris as you can probably see, the sun is

:38:54.:38:57.

shining in the centre of the city, but it is even more special if you

:38:58.:39:01.

are a Northern Ireland fan. Let's just remind ourselves of scenes from

:39:02.:39:05.

last night. It was an incredible game. They are through to the last

:39:06.:39:10.

16, despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A heavier defeat would have seen

:39:11.:39:14.

them go out, but their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept them in the

:39:15.:39:19.

gamement 1-0 was the final score there. Sparking huge scenes of

:39:20.:39:25.

celebration in the ground. England have a rest day today. Lots

:39:26.:39:34.

of the papers this morning talking about unrest within the England

:39:35.:39:39.

camp. Some players unhappy about changes, including captain Wayne

:39:40.:39:43.

Rooney, so far Roy Hodgson hasn't commented. And the fixtures are out

:39:44.:39:55.

today. Newcastle go to Fulham. All the details, of course, on the BBC

:39:56.:40:02.

Sport website. Newcastle, of course, starting life in the Championship.

:40:03.:40:06.

That's all the sports news from Paris. Back to you. Thank you very

:40:07.:40:08.

much, Sally. The head injuries sustained

:40:09.:40:12.

by six-year-Ellie Butler were equivalent to those sustained

:40:13.:40:14.

in a high-speed car accident. Except those head injuries

:40:15.:40:17.

were inflicted her own father, Ben Butler, who was jailed

:40:18.:40:21.

for a minimum of 23 years yesterday Butler was a violent and domineering

:40:22.:40:23.

man who abused and controlled both his partner, Jennifer Gray

:40:24.:40:37.

as well as their daughter. He'd already been found guilty

:40:38.:40:40.

of shaking his daughter But that conviction was quashed

:40:41.:40:42.

and a judge handed care of the little girl back

:40:43.:40:45.

to both Butler and Gray. At the time, Ellie's grandfather

:40:46.:40:48.

warned the judge who made that decision would "have

:40:49.:40:50.

blood on her hands". We'll speak to him live in his first

:40:51.:40:53.

TV interview in a moment. First, this is the case against Ben

:40:54.:40:56.

Butler. This is the family life that Ben

:40:57.:41:08.

Butler fought for. Go on, Ellie. And the life he destroyed in a fit of

:41:09.:41:13.

rage. Six-year-old Ellie was living with a man on a short fuse as an

:41:14.:41:17.

accidentally recorded phone call demonstrated. (BLEEP) off. There

:41:18.:41:26.

were several aggressive text messages which the court heard was a

:41:27.:41:32.

torrent of verbal abuse Butler unleashed on his partner. Butler

:41:33.:41:37.

texted, "I can't cope anymore. Woke up. I am in a rage already. Been in

:41:38.:41:42.

place so many times, my hands are shaking. One more mistake, I'm going

:41:43.:41:48.

to lose it." He texted, "Stay out of my way or you will be hurt. Only

:41:49.:41:53.

drunk I can stand you and your ways. Now go die." Days before Ellie's

:41:54.:41:58.

death, Gray, wrote this, "If you weren't here, I would die. Just so

:41:59.:42:03.

you know, that is truth through and through." Video also shows Ellie

:42:04.:42:08.

with a black eye which Butler claimed was from a fall. Weeks later

:42:09.:42:13.

in October 2013, he battered Ellie to death calling her mother moments

:42:14.:42:16.

later. Jennie Gray worked opposite the old

:42:17.:42:20.

baby, yards from the courtroom where the case has been heard. C TV

:42:21.:42:25.

footage shows her rushing home to Sutton where they tried to stage

:42:26.:42:28.

things to look like an accident. Before sending their younger child

:42:29.:42:33.

to find Ellie and finally calling 999. My daughter is not breathing

:42:34.:42:37.

properly. Jennie Gray is shouting with Ben Butler in the background.

:42:38.:42:47.

She is laying there. OK, OK, darling I'm helping you now. It is a 15

:42:48.:42:52.

minute call in which Jennie Gray is instructed on how to resuscitate

:42:53.:42:56.

Ellie. 30 times you need to pump the chest. Detectives soon worked out

:42:57.:43:06.

Ellie had been dead for sometime. When you realise that at the time

:43:07.:43:10.

the ambulance was called, it is give or take two hours after she first

:43:11.:43:16.

knew, that is a is performance that must have been very difficult.

:43:17.:43:21.

The couple had a history. In 2007 Ben Butler was convicted of shaking

:43:22.:43:26.

six-week old Ellie. That was quashed on a legal technicality and Ellie

:43:27.:43:30.

eventually returned to their care. The couple even went on television

:43:31.:43:34.

to complain of their injustice. If anything, he was trying to be, you

:43:35.:43:38.

know, the perfect dad, he was trying to get everything fine. So you

:43:39.:43:41.

wouldn't have had any warning signs or anything that this man could have

:43:42.:43:46.

the potential to be harmful to your baby? No, none at all. I heard no

:43:47.:43:52.

smoke without fire from certain people. It took to pretty much last

:43:53.:44:00.

month to clear my name completely. Jennie had you ever any doubts about

:44:01.:44:05.

Ben? None, I had seen him with her as a baby. I seen, he wanted to see

:44:06.:44:10.

her every day from the minute she was born and he came to see her,

:44:11.:44:14.

even for a minute, even for ten minutes at the door every day just

:44:15.:44:18.

to give her a kiss. Sir Mark was one of the Appeal Court judges who

:44:19.:44:23.

quashed Ben Butler's 2007 criminal conviction on a legal technicality.

:44:24.:44:27.

He can't talk about that directly, but it was the Family Court that

:44:28.:44:31.

later allowed Ellie home. He has told the BBC that judges there faced

:44:32.:44:39.

the most complex of decisions. They decided in a highly emotive context

:44:40.:44:44.

and decided in a situation where a judge has to make a decision one way

:44:45.:44:47.

or the other. If you get the decision right, fine. If you get it

:44:48.:44:51.

wrong, either way there are serious consequences. But in the Family

:44:52.:44:59.

Court, Mrs Justice Hogg went as far to exonerate Ben Butler. Until then

:45:00.:45:03.

her maternal grandfather looked after her. The court ordered that

:45:04.:45:07.

all files on the family held by the police, health, schools and social

:45:08.:45:10.

workers should clearly say that Ben Butler had been exonerated and the

:45:11.:45:14.

couple, or their solicitor could serve that order on any profession

:45:15.:45:16.

they At Elie's school they found she was

:45:17.:45:26.

often absent. The headteacher said normally there would have involved

:45:27.:45:32.

social workers. There was no local authority involvement because of the

:45:33.:45:36.

family court judgment. All we could do was treat the issue as an

:45:37.:45:41.

attendance issue. The official review into the case concludes the

:45:42.:45:47.

court ruling... Making it difficult for others to protect a little girl

:45:48.:45:51.

described by her teachers as gentle and thoughtful.

:45:52.:45:52.

We can talk now exclusively to Ellie Butler's granddad, Neal Gray,

:45:53.:45:54.

Good morning. Good morning. How do you react to the sentence handed

:45:55.:46:11.

down to Butler yesterday? I am happy they gave him a severe sentence but

:46:12.:46:14.

in my opinion the sentence should have been more severe. He should

:46:15.:46:18.

have had at least 40 years with no remission. And the partner should

:46:19.:46:26.

have had at least 20 years. I think they are both culprits, they caused

:46:27.:46:30.

the death of Elie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say,

:46:31.:46:35.

and so should the partner. That is your daughter. That was my daughter.

:46:36.:46:42.

I have disowned her. You don't think one of your own offspring could be

:46:43.:46:48.

possibly involved in a terrible tragic crime. Unfortunately she was.

:46:49.:47:02.

Do except she was under his control? That he was domineering, abusive,

:47:03.:47:11.

controlling? I understand he was violent and controlling but I thinks

:47:12.:47:16.

-- think she is also capable of being the same with him. I would say

:47:17.:47:23.

it is 50-50. You and your wife, Linda, cared for and nurtured Ellie

:47:24.:47:29.

for five sixths years. Yes. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me.

:47:30.:47:41.

Bubbly. A gorgeous little girl. Very brainy. Intelligent. And very

:47:42.:47:50.

loving. She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She

:47:51.:48:01.

had lots of friends at school. And the story is what Butler and her

:48:02.:48:07.

saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and holds -- order

:48:08.:48:10.

false lies. She was a gorgeous little girl. It is a great

:48:11.:48:15.

privilege, excuse me, to have been a grandparent. And you looked after

:48:16.:48:21.

her, you and Linda looked after her like she was your own daughter. Yes.

:48:22.:48:27.

The reason you had her in your care was because Butler had a conviction

:48:28.:48:33.

for assaulting her, for shaking her when she was six weeks old, which

:48:34.:48:38.

was later quashed, as we know. That is why you were caring for her. Yes.

:48:39.:48:43.

You fought to continue having custody of her when he and her

:48:44.:48:47.

daughter were trying to get custody back, when his conviction was

:48:48.:48:56.

quashed. Yes. From 2007 to 2012, were in court virtually every year

:48:57.:49:02.

at periods of time trying to keep hold of Ellie. Ellie did not want to

:49:03.:49:05.

go back to her parents. Her birth parents. Because she did not know

:49:06.:49:13.

them. At the times they should have got to know Ellie, at the family

:49:14.:49:18.

centre in Sutton, for two and a half years they never turned up to see

:49:19.:49:25.

her. And Butler was very violent. You knew that, did you? You knew

:49:26.:49:30.

what he was like? Yes. He was threatening to my wife and myself

:49:31.:49:34.

and other members of my family. Jenny used to be aggressive and

:49:35.:49:41.

threatening myself and my wife. If we were going to court for something

:49:42.:49:44.

was supposed to have been set, she would talk to my wife and say, if

:49:45.:49:49.

you've got anything to say to your solicitor, you run it through me and

:49:50.:49:55.

Ben before you talk to your solicitor, otherwise you will be

:49:56.:49:58.

looking over your shoulder for the rest of your lives. There were

:49:59.:50:03.

threatening you and trying to control you? Yes. When the judge

:50:04.:50:08.

handed custody back to Butler and your daughter, Jenny Gray, you said

:50:09.:50:14.

you could upload blood on your hands. Why did you say that? I had a

:50:15.:50:21.

premonition that Ellie would not be safe. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big

:50:22.:50:32.

mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She did

:50:33.:50:36.

not give the proper directions for the social workers, who were

:50:37.:50:42.

independent business people. They were independent, work for

:50:43.:50:46.

themselves social workers. Private social workers. They had not read

:50:47.:50:53.

any of the notes. They did not know any history. We have attempted to

:50:54.:50:59.

get a statement from Mrs Justice Hogg. We have not been able to yet.

:51:00.:51:03.

At the time she said Ben Butler was the victim of a miscarriage of

:51:04.:51:08.

justice. She exonerated him. She said he had not assaulted Ellie as a

:51:09.:51:14.

six-week old. Yes, she said that. But I don't think she took any

:51:15.:51:18.

notice of the medical evidence for the social workers, or the local

:51:19.:51:24.

authority children's department. They all knew that Ellie had been

:51:25.:51:30.

assaulted. She also issued this unpublished, onto yesterday, order,

:51:31.:51:36.

this unpublished order that all professional, educational, medical

:51:37.:51:39.

or social care bodies holding any files relating to Ali, must make a

:51:40.:51:44.

prominent reference to the fact that Ben Butler had been exonerated. She

:51:45.:51:48.

also went further than the appeal Court ruling, which had quashed his

:51:49.:51:52.

conviction. She said, look, he is exonerated. That meant it was very

:51:53.:51:58.

hard for you, for the headteacher, for the local authority social

:51:59.:52:00.

workers to try to intervene if you had wanted to? Yes, I did not know

:52:01.:52:07.

that exist until yesterday. How did you react when you found that there

:52:08.:52:11.

was that order? I think it is terrible. I think the laws should be

:52:12.:52:14.

radically changed. And judges should be made accountable either through a

:52:15.:52:23.

proper office -- procedure Ore Home Secretary. After all, they are human

:52:24.:52:27.

beings and they are not above the law. And wonder what you thought

:52:28.:52:33.

when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV, as we saw in that

:52:34.:52:38.

clip, protesting their innocence, saying there had been a victim of a

:52:39.:52:42.

miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter joke. After

:52:43.:52:50.

that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called Max Clifford, a PR

:52:51.:52:55.

guru, who is now also inside. I think their idea was to milk the

:52:56.:52:58.

system for as much money as they could possibly get. It is an utter

:52:59.:53:10.

farce. We know what Butler did on that day that Ellie died. He

:53:11.:53:19.

inflicted awful, awful injuries. In a fit of rage, apparently. And then

:53:20.:53:22.

summoned your daughter home from work to help Ukhov -- her cover

:53:23.:53:29.

things up. Do you believe that your daughter genuinely believed Ellie

:53:30.:53:32.

had died in an accident, which is what his story was? Do I believe

:53:33.:53:40.

that Jenny believes? Yes. I don't believe she did believe she died in

:53:41.:53:44.

an accident. I think she knew what had happened. She knew what he was

:53:45.:53:50.

capable of. Because she had inflicted injuries herself several

:53:51.:53:56.

times through the loss of other children. Why would she cover up the

:53:57.:54:02.

murder of her daughter? I don't know. That is a question I cannot

:54:03.:54:09.

answer. I often sold search myself, and my wife soul searchers, asking

:54:10.:54:18.

why. When you have a child, your number one priority is always the

:54:19.:54:25.

child. Anybody. But it is a father, a mother, grandfather, grandmother,

:54:26.:54:29.

the child is the most important thing in this world, they are

:54:30.:54:33.

precious. It is a privilege to have a child could my eyes. If you have a

:54:34.:54:39.

child, you have got to look after that child completely and utterly.

:54:40.:54:44.

They are the priority of your life. Without it, well, many nasty things

:54:45.:54:52.

could happen, which have happened in the past years. I believe the social

:54:53.:54:57.

services, laws regarding them, have got to be brought into the 21st

:54:58.:55:02.

century. I also believe that the family courts system, as it is

:55:03.:55:05.

today, has got to be changed radically. Brought into the 21st

:55:06.:55:13.

century. You mean less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. They have opened up a

:55:14.:55:19.

little bit. Open it completely. But on particular cases, keep the

:55:20.:55:26.

child's name anonymous, if that has got to be. The child has got to be

:55:27.:55:29.

protected. That is the most important thing. I don't think the

:55:30.:55:35.

establishment have learned, we have had Baby P, we have had ten murders

:55:36.:55:44.

in the last ten years of children, horrifically gone wrong, so many

:55:45.:55:48.

inadequacies with social services are a family courts. Somebody has

:55:49.:55:52.

got to stand up and make sure that no other child gets hurt like my

:55:53.:55:59.

granddaughter got hurt. And I think that I will make it my goal for the

:56:00.:56:07.

rest of my life to fight for any child to be saved. No child deserves

:56:08.:56:10.

to go through what Ellie went through, or any of the other

:56:11.:56:15.

children that have died. With July to see a public enquiry? Yes I

:56:16.:56:20.

would. Very much. -- would you like to see. Your wife, Linda, died in

:56:21.:56:25.

the first day of the trial. She has not been here to see justice, to see

:56:26.:56:31.

the man punished, to see your daughter punished. And I understand

:56:32.:56:37.

Jenny Gray didn't know that your wife had died, is that right, until

:56:38.:56:43.

yesterday? That is right. My wife, in the last few days, she asked to

:56:44.:56:47.

see the priest at the hospital, the Marsden in Sutton. She asked to

:56:48.:56:56.

speak to a policeman. A very kind police liaison officer. She stated

:56:57.:57:02.

she did not want Jenny to know that she had cancer. And she didn't want

:57:03.:57:07.

to know that she had died. That was her wish, because she said she

:57:08.:57:16.

doesn't deserve to know. We are showing our audiences picture of

:57:17.:57:19.

Linda now. She was clear she did not want her daughter to know? Al are

:57:20.:57:24.

no. She could never forgive her for what he had done to Ali. -- Ellie.

:57:25.:57:32.

If it is all right with you, I want to play a little bit of the 999 call

:57:33.:57:37.

played in court. This is the call that Jenny Gray and Butler made to

:57:38.:57:43.

the emergency services when they were pretending to try to save

:57:44.:57:44.

Ellie's life. Listen to me now, my daughter is not

:57:45.:57:58.

breathing properly. You need to calm down and stop shouting. I cannot

:57:59.:58:08.

hear you. What has happened? I need you to stop shouting because I

:58:09.:58:12.

cannot hear you. Tell me what to do, please! I don't know what is

:58:13.:58:21.

happening, my love. Brilliant. Keep doing that. You are doing a really

:58:22.:58:25.

good job. What do you think of that? I think

:58:26.:58:30.

it was all states. Like a play on a stage. -- all staged. All acted out.

:58:31.:58:38.

You have to be a particular kind of person to be able to act that out,

:58:39.:58:45.

haven't you? Yes, terrible. The judge described Ben Butler as self

:58:46.:58:48.

absorbed, ill tempered, domineering, a man who regarded his child and

:58:49.:58:55.

partner as trophies, having no role other than to fit in with his

:58:56.:58:59.

infantile and sentimentalised view of family life, with him as the

:59:00.:59:04.

patriarch whose every whim had to be catered for. How would you describe

:59:05.:59:15.

Ben Butler? Evil. Pure evil. He can... Just one nasty, horrible

:59:16.:59:19.

person, who is now taken off the streets. And hopefully made an

:59:20.:59:27.

example of. And maybe the police can catch other people who do this kind

:59:28.:59:34.

of thing. I know, finally, you do want to thank the police and all the

:59:35.:59:37.

people who have helped you? Yes. Excuse me. I would like to thank the

:59:38.:59:49.

homicide team who, through this three years, have supported my wife,

:59:50.:59:55.

my family at every stage of their commitment to this order. And I'm

:59:56.:00:03.

very grateful for their help and devotion of duty for what they have

:00:04.:00:09.

done. And most of all, they kept my family and I completely in touch at

:00:10.:00:14.

every stage where they could. I would also like to thank the Victim

:00:15.:00:19.

Support people for their support for my wife, myself, my family. Without

:00:20.:00:25.

either of them, I don't know if I would be here today.

:00:26.:00:29.

We have got some lovely messages from people listening to. Harry

:00:30.:00:35.

Tweets this. This is a moving tribute to Ali. This tweet from

:00:36.:00:43.

Jane, this is devastating. Another says, oh my goodness, it is so sad

:00:44.:00:48.

to hear Ellie Butler's grandfather. And John says, a public enquiry is a

:00:49.:00:52.

good idea and I'm ready sorry for your loss. I'm very grateful for

:00:53.:00:57.

everybody's support. Also my community where I live in

:00:58.:01:08.

Warrington. # raez Sorry. The people in my community have been absolutely

:01:09.:01:10.

fantastic. I cannot thank the police enough and

:01:11.:01:24.

the Victim Support. Some news, this is just reaching us

:01:25.:01:29.

here on the programme. It is to do with Rory McIlroy. Rory McIlroy says

:01:30.:01:37.

he will not be taking part in the Rio Olympics because of concerns

:01:38.:01:44.

over the Zika virus. Rory McIlroy says he won't be going to the Rio

:01:45.:01:49.

Games because of concerns over the Zika virus. It is time for the

:01:50.:01:52.

weather and here is Carol. We have got three zones, showers and

:01:53.:02:01.

sunshine across Northern Ireland and the same across Scotland. This

:02:02.:02:05.

weather front is introducing thicker cloud and rain. Muggy conditions to

:02:06.:02:08.

the south of that and the South East. And drier conditions across

:02:09.:02:12.

Northern England. Again, with bright or sunny skies. As we head through

:02:13.:02:17.

this evening and overnight, we are expecting some torrential thundery

:02:18.:02:22.

downpours. They could lead to localised flooding issues and you

:02:23.:02:26.

can find out more on your local radio station. You can see how they

:02:27.:02:29.

develop moving up the south-eastern quarter of the UK across Essex,

:02:30.:02:36.

Sussex and Kent. Away from that, we have got drier conditions and fewer

:02:37.:02:38.

showers, but it will be a muggy night. That leads us into the start

:02:39.:02:42.

of tomorrow. Once again, all those thunderstorms to start the day

:02:43.:02:46.

pushing away for a time. They will be replaced later on from the south

:02:47.:02:50.

later on as temperatures rise. Still the south-eastern quarter of the

:02:51.:02:52.

country that's likely to be affected. North of that, we are back

:02:53.:02:56.

into bright spells, sunshine and showers. Temperatures in the north

:02:57.:03:00.

up to 20 Celsius in Newcastle, but 24 Celsius in London.

:03:01.:03:06.

I'm Victoria Derbyshire, welcome to the programme

:03:07.:03:11.

It's the final push a day ahead of the crucial decision on the UK's

:03:12.:03:18.

place in Europe - the last arguments are being made

:03:19.:03:20.

The UK will be in the back of the queue. I think the American

:03:21.:03:27.

president is coming out with the same rubbish that David Cameron is

:03:28.:03:30.

coming out. Uncontrolled numbers coming in here, not only depress

:03:31.:03:35.

wages for working people. Nor do you control and address people's

:03:36.:03:37.

concerns about immigration with scare stories.

:03:38.:03:43.

After the vote tomorrow, then what The polls close at 10pm. That's your

:03:44.:03:48.

last chance to vote. The results start coming in at 2am. Final

:03:49.:03:54.

breakfast time. Set your alarm for 7am!

:03:55.:03:59.

Six-year-old Ellie Butler's grandfather tells us,

:04:00.:04:00.

in an exclusive interview, that the justice system

:04:01.:04:03.

failed his grand-daughter and judges need to be held accountable.

:04:04.:04:10.

I will make it my goal for the rest of my life to fight for any child to

:04:11.:04:17.

be saved because no child deserves to go through what Ellie went

:04:18.:04:20.

through or any of the other children that died in the last year.

:04:21.:04:27.

We will bring you more reaction to that interview before 11am.

:04:28.:04:29.

We'll be hearing from Sir Cliff Richard who's calling

:04:30.:04:32.

for a change to the law so that people accused of sexual offences

:04:33.:04:35.

have their identity protected until they are charged.

:04:36.:04:42.

The name never should be out there unless you have been charged and

:04:43.:04:49.

here I am 22 months and week later and no charge. I don't like the idea

:04:50.:04:54.

of being collateral damage and that's what I have been for 22

:04:55.:04:58.

months. Good morning from Paris. Northern

:04:59.:05:02.

Ireland fans are still recovering after their team was beaten last

:05:03.:05:05.

night, but made it through to the next round at the Euros. Coming up

:05:06.:05:10.

in the sport, we will have the latest on Rory McIlroy's decision on

:05:11.:05:14.

not to go to the Olympics because of the Zika virus.

:05:15.:05:18.

Joanna is in the BBC Newsroom with a summary of today's news.

:05:19.:05:26.

It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide

:05:27.:05:28.

whether we should stay or leave the European Union.

:05:29.:05:32.

Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:05:33.:05:34.

Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe

:05:35.:05:37.

there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU.

:05:38.:05:40.

Meanwhile Leave campaigner Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind

:05:41.:05:42.

tour of England, says it's time for a "totally

:05:43.:05:44.

new relationship with our partners across the channel".

:05:45.:05:51.

The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme

:05:52.:05:53.

there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up

:05:54.:05:56.

Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found

:05:57.:05:59.

He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:06:00.:06:07.

at their home in south-west London in October 2013.

:06:08.:06:09.

She died less than a year after she was returned

:06:10.:06:12.

to her parents' care following a custody battle.

:06:13.:06:14.

A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections

:06:15.:06:16.

In his first television interview, Neal Gray,

:06:17.:06:28.

Said he was worried that Ellie was in danger. I think Justice Hogg made

:06:29.:06:40.

Yeah, yeah, that's the name. Mrs Justice Hogg made a big mistake. I

:06:41.:06:43.

don't think she followed proper procedure of the law. She didn't

:06:44.:06:47.

give the proper direction from the social workers who were independent

:06:48.:06:51.

business people, you know, they were independent, they worked for

:06:52.:06:55.

themselves social workers. They were private social workers as opposed to

:06:56.:06:59.

the local authority. They weren't allowed to look at any history less

:07:00.:07:03.

than three months prior to them taking over.

:07:04.:07:06.

Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:07:07.:07:09.

Organisers say current wet weather and ground conditions

:07:10.:07:12.

People have reported queuing for more than five hours to get on to

:07:13.:07:20.

the site. More than 100,000 people

:07:21.:07:23.

are expected to descend on Worthy Farm for

:07:24.:07:25.

the five-day event. I had a tweet from a friend who said

:07:26.:07:31.

it was carnage at Glastonbury! Do get in touch with us

:07:32.:07:37.

throughout the morning. Use the hashtag Victoria LIVE

:07:38.:07:39.

and If you text, you will be charged You were watching the interview with

:07:40.:07:46.

Neal Gray the grandfather of Ellie Butler. Emma says, "A heartbreaking

:07:47.:07:52.

interview on hashtag Victoria Live now. Ellie Butler's grandfather is a

:07:53.:07:59.

brave man." This viewer says, "What an amazing man on your programme.

:08:00.:08:05.

All the best to him for the future." Emmy says, "Children are precious

:08:06.:08:09.

and should always come first. He is right, it is so true." This tweet

:08:10.:08:15.

from Andy, "I'm in bits. What a brave man Ellie Butler's grandad is.

:08:16.:08:18.

I hope he finds peace." Thank you for those.

:08:19.:08:22.

Thank you, Victoria. Good morning, we're going to bring you up-to-date

:08:23.:08:31.

with the Euros. The breaking news that you mentioned a moment ago,

:08:32.:08:37.

Victoria. The golfer Rory McIlroy announced he will withdraw with the

:08:38.:08:43.

Rishtion io Olympicsment McIlroy was in Paris to watch Northern Ireland

:08:44.:08:47.

play Germany, but he has decided into the to play in the Games

:08:48.:08:50.

because of concerns about the Zika virus. He is one of a number of

:08:51.:08:58.

high-profile golfers to pull out. Adam Scott and Vijay Singh are the

:08:59.:09:03.

others. He says, "After speaking with those closest to me. I have

:09:04.:09:07.

come to realise that my health and my family's health comes before

:09:08.:09:10.

anything else, even though the risk of infection from the Zika virus is

:09:11.:09:16.

low, it is a risk nonetheless and a risk I am unwilling to take. I trust

:09:17.:09:20.

the Irish people will understand my decision." Just to recap, that is

:09:21.:09:26.

Rory McIlroy and the announcement that he won't be going to Rio.

:09:27.:09:31.

Disappointing news for him, but he was probably quite a lot happier in

:09:32.:09:35.

France last night where he watched Northern Ireland play their way into

:09:36.:09:40.

the round of 16. They were beaten 1-0 by the world champions Germany,

:09:41.:09:46.

but a huge performance from their goalkeeper Michael McGovern kept the

:09:47.:09:49.

score more than respectable. After other results last night they are

:09:50.:09:54.

still in the competition! So a happy Northern Ireland camp. Not so for

:09:55.:09:57.

the England team, it seems. Today's back pages are full of stories about

:09:58.:10:01.

possible disquiet about the changes Roy Hodgson made to the team for the

:10:02.:10:06.

final group game. Olly Foster joins us now. Olly, is the backlash

:10:07.:10:12.

beginning, is it all starting to go wrong for Roy? Well, it went wrong a

:10:13.:10:18.

couple of nights ago. Good morning, Sally. A glorious morning here in

:10:19.:10:24.

Chantilly, that backfired the changes. You make six changes and

:10:25.:10:29.

Roy Hodgson was expected to win that match, but there was no discernible

:10:30.:10:34.

change in pattern or pace and tempo and certainly, dropping the captain

:10:35.:10:38.

Wayne Rooney, that was something that raised a lot of eyebrows

:10:39.:10:44.

against Slovakia and Jack Wilshere really didn't fill that hole and

:10:45.:10:48.

when Rooney came on things changed, but not quickly enough. So the

:10:49.:10:53.

permutations now is that England are now in limbo really. Knowing that

:10:54.:10:57.

they're going off to Nice on Monday, but who they face, well, we'll find

:10:58.:11:02.

out later. The players have been given time off today. Some have gone

:11:03.:11:06.

shopping in Paris. Some may attend race day behind me at the fantastic

:11:07.:11:13.

Chantilly racecourse, they are trying to work out what the best 11

:11:14.:11:18.

is. Just like the rest of us! Olly,

:11:19.:11:22.

thank you very much indeed. That's all for now. The breaking story this

:11:23.:11:28.

hour, which is the news that Rory McIlroy, the golfer has withdrawn

:11:29.:11:35.

from the Rio Games because of concerns over the Zika virus.

:11:36.:11:40.

STUDIO: It will be interesting to see if other athletes choose to

:11:41.:11:46.

follow his leadment

:11:47.:11:47.

Both sides i leadment n the EU referendum

:11:48.:11:59.

Both sides in the EU referendum debate are making their final

:12:00.:12:02.

pitches on the last day of campaigning.

:12:03.:12:03.

Putting the case to remain, David Cameron said that by staying

:12:04.:12:06.

in, Britain had the best of both worlds.

:12:07.:12:07.

I will decide our future in Europe through an in-out referendum on

:12:08.:12:16.

Thursday, 23rd June. The home you live in, your weekly

:12:17.:12:20.

shop, your monthly bills, these things are all at risk. Why are we

:12:21.:12:27.

sending ?10 billion a year net to Brussels some of which is spent on

:12:28.:12:31.

Spanish bull fighting. The real show tonight isn't in Brussels, but it is

:12:32.:12:34.

here in Westminster. That's down to... Overregulating. Air fairy.

:12:35.:12:41.

What matters is holiday pay... For the United Kingdom. Remain. Leave.

:12:42.:12:49.

After a great deal of heartache, I don't think there is anything else I

:12:50.:12:53.

can do. I will be advocating vote leave. If people vote to leave on

:12:54.:12:57.

the basis of immigration I'm afraid they'll find they will be in the

:12:58.:13:01.

same situation. What our judgment is, is a risk. The governor strayed

:13:02.:13:06.

now into the expression of what is a simple, personal prediction. I think

:13:07.:13:09.

it is appalling that the people who want to drag the United Kingdom out

:13:10.:13:14.

of the European Union are now trying to drag the Queen in... Louis and

:13:15.:13:23.

Hitler were trying to create a United States of Europe. We're

:13:24.:13:26.

losing our identity and we are suddenly just going to get swallowed

:13:27.:13:31.

up. I'm positive on the EU. The UK is going to be in the back of the

:13:32.:13:34.

queue. I think the American president is coming out with the

:13:35.:13:38.

same rubbish that David Cameron is coming out with. I am angry at the

:13:39.:13:42.

way the British people are being misled. Uncontrolled numbers coming

:13:43.:13:47.

in, not only depress wages for working people. With scare

:13:48.:13:56.

stories... You are no fisherman's friend. You are on the European

:13:57.:14:02.

Parliament fishing committee and you attended one out of 43 meetings.

:14:03.:14:09.

You're a fraud, Nigel. What Mr Geldof did was show his contempt for

:14:10.:14:13.

the men and women that have come here today.

:14:14.:14:17.

# One way or another I'm going to find you, I'm going to get you one

:14:18.:14:21.

way or another. # I'm going to... #

:14:22.:14:26.

I'm campaigning to remain in the European Union.

:14:27.:14:31.

This city wouldn't be what it is without immigrants. The question

:14:32.:14:35.

is... Immigrants built this city. Oh, you don't want to listen, right.

:14:36.:14:39.

People are going to bring this country forward in the future, but

:14:40.:14:44.

you're not. Anyway, have a leaflet. Thanks.

:14:45.:15:36.

So in just 21 hours the polls will be open and you will get to cast

:15:37.:16:08.

your vote. Then what happens? When do we get a result? What could

:16:09.:16:13.

follow in the coming hours, days, weeks, months, years, decades,

:16:14.:16:22.

lifetime? Norman Smith joins me. All of the big broadcasters are setting

:16:23.:16:26.

up their portable makeshift studios for what is going to be a global

:16:27.:16:33.

news story. A massive story not just here in Britain, but frankly, around

:16:34.:16:38.

the world. Let's look at the timetable from tomorrow night. Ten

:16:39.:16:44.

o'clock is when the polls close. If you have not voted by then, my

:16:45.:16:49.

friend, you are out of time. They will not be any exit polls for this

:16:50.:16:53.

referendum because the pollsters say they have nothing to base it on. At

:16:54.:16:59.

two o'clock we will get the result is beginning to come through. They

:17:00.:17:02.

will be announced by local councils first. Those will trick on through

:17:03.:17:08.

the night. At six o'clock, pundits, I think we'll be in a position where

:17:09.:17:12.

they can start to call this result, to suggest which way it may be

:17:13.:17:18.

shifting. You will probably have to wait until about 7:30am for the

:17:19.:17:23.

official result from Manchester town Hall, when we will know whether we

:17:24.:17:27.

have taken the momentous decision to leave the European Union or whether

:17:28.:17:32.

we are going to stay in. I guess one of the questions which is going to

:17:33.:17:35.

crop up straightaway is, what happens to the Prime Minister rock?

:17:36.:17:42.

-- Prime Minister? Both Boris Johnson and David Cameron have been

:17:43.:17:45.

clear he will carry on whatever the result. I will accept the verdict of

:17:46.:17:50.

the British people. If they vote to remain, we will remain in the

:17:51.:17:53.

European Union, the process of reform continues and we wake up on

:17:54.:17:56.

Friday knowing that investment and jobs and the dividend will come to

:17:57.:18:01.

our country. If we vote to leave, I will carry out that instruction from

:18:02.:18:05.

the British people. That is what I said at the general election, that

:18:06.:18:08.

is what was in our manifesto and that is what I will do. Whatever

:18:09.:18:13.

happens at the end of this, and I have said this to the Prime

:18:14.:18:19.

Minister, he has got to stay. The battalions of the argument are

:18:20.:18:22.

unquestionably ranged against people like me. We are per trade as crazy,

:18:23.:18:28.

cracked and the rest of it. I don't mind. I happen to think that I am

:18:29.:18:33.

right. It is a very difficult case to make. I have thought a lot about

:18:34.:18:39.

it for many years. Let's go through the different scenarios, depending

:18:40.:18:46.

what happens tomorrow morning. The first scenario, Mr Cameron bursts

:18:47.:18:50.

through the finishing tape, Remain win, the nation votes to stay in the

:18:51.:18:56.

European Union. What happens? A statement from Mr Cameron on the

:18:57.:19:00.

steps of Downing Street is likely pretty much as soon as we get the

:19:01.:19:04.

result. He will stress how the nation has spoken, the decision has

:19:05.:19:09.

been made, it is a once-in-a-lifetime generation. Then

:19:10.:19:11.

over the next few days and weeks, reshuffle may be. Will Mr Cameron

:19:12.:19:19.

seek a revenge reshuffle? Willingly seek to knife his treacherous

:19:20.:19:24.

cabinet vote will it be a reconciliation reshuffle? Will easy

:19:25.:19:27.

to bring in people like Boris Johnson? The other option runs

:19:28.:19:33.

towards a unity agenda. Will Mr Cameron bring forward policies which

:19:34.:19:37.

his party can rally around in the wake of this divisive contest?

:19:38.:19:42.

Perhaps he will call a controversial vote on Trident, which is party can

:19:43.:19:46.

unite around but it may embarrass Labour. The second scenario, what if

:19:47.:19:51.

Boris Johnson and the Brexiteer 's burst through the finishing tape

:19:52.:19:59.

first. What if we vote to leave? New leader would seem very likely

:20:00.:20:03.

despite Mr Cameron's protestations that he will stay. The most likely

:20:04.:20:06.

candidate, probably one Boris Johnson. But also they would have to

:20:07.:20:13.

be a new deal. We would have to begin negotiations with the rest of

:20:14.:20:16.

Europe because we would not longer be in the single market. We would

:20:17.:20:20.

have to work out what sort of a trading arrangement we are bound to

:20:21.:20:25.

have with the rest of Europe. Finally, new world because other EU

:20:26.:20:28.

countries may also decide, if Britain has left, we want out, too.

:20:29.:20:34.

It could lead to a total reshaping, even collapse of the European Union,

:20:35.:20:39.

a change in the nature of global relations. There is a third

:20:40.:20:44.

scenario. And that is a narrow, squeaky win for Mr Cameron. Both he

:20:45.:20:50.

and Boris Johnson are neck and neck at the finishing tape. What happens

:20:51.:20:58.

then? Plots galore. Expect Tory MPs to be manoeuvring, trying to ease Mr

:20:59.:21:02.

Cameron out, trying to push Boris Johnson into power. There is the

:21:03.:21:08.

danger of a zombie parliament because some of Mr Cameron's critics

:21:09.:21:12.

on the Tory benches may simply refuse to go along with any policy

:21:13.:21:17.

to our legislation he proposes, and parliament could be reduced to a

:21:18.:21:21.

zombie status unable to do anything. That might lead to a general

:21:22.:21:27.

election. Maybe Mr Cameron would decide enough is enough, I cannot go

:21:28.:21:32.

on like this, let's call a snap general election. If Boris 's

:21:33.:21:36.

leader, he may want his own mandate. He could demand a general election.

:21:37.:21:40.

We could see a general election before the end of the year. Tomorrow

:21:41.:21:46.

is obviously a momentous moment. But do not think the political upheaval

:21:47.:21:50.

and turmoil and change is necessarily going to end tomorrow

:21:51.:21:53.

night. Wow! General election by the end of

:21:54.:22:00.

the year. Oh, my word. Tomorrow is not the first time the British

:22:01.:22:04.

public have had the opportunity to decide whether we become -- we're

:22:05.:22:16.

part of the EU. Back then, the UK chose to remain. Throughout this

:22:17.:22:20.

campaign I have said, I think we have all said, that in the community

:22:21.:22:26.

or outside the community, Britain's future depends on our own efforts

:22:27.:22:31.

here, our own inventiveness, our skill, our technology and restraint.

:22:32.:22:37.

As always in the past but now as never before, Britain depends on the

:22:38.:22:41.

efforts we make in our trade and in our industry, and the contribution

:22:42.:22:48.

everyone of us to that effort. How many of those who voted 40 odd years

:22:49.:22:52.

ago would vote the same way this time around? Let's vote to Kevin

:22:53.:22:59.

Mulloy, who voted to stay in the EU. And June Bennett, who voted for

:23:00.:23:03.

Britain to leave in the referendum. Good morning. Kevin, it was Remain

:23:04.:23:11.

for you in 1975. What about now? It was a hard decision this time. I

:23:12.:23:15.

spent several weeks agonising over it. I took into account,

:23:16.:23:23.

sovereignty, EU immigration... I decided to remain. Jean, what about

:23:24.:23:30.

you? Tomorrow I will be voting to leave. When we originally voted, we

:23:31.:23:35.

voted to join, which is different to what it is now. How I felt then was,

:23:36.:23:42.

we were OK, we could do business across the world, there was no

:23:43.:23:45.

problem. Now there seems to be a lot of difficulties for the

:23:46.:23:52.

small-business people who make up to 90% of employers in the private

:23:53.:23:54.

sector, and they have horrendous problems. One instance is some

:23:55.:24:01.

people I know who supply chemicals for swimming pools. The small

:24:02.:24:08.

companies in England who would supply them can no longer afford to

:24:09.:24:18.

because they have two apply under regulations, which will cost them

:24:19.:24:21.

tens of thousands of pounds, which small businesses do not have. So

:24:22.:24:26.

they are either closing down going into insolvency, and there is just

:24:27.:24:29.

one company which now supplies, a large company based in Switzerland.

:24:30.:24:37.

The consequence is that the product is four times more expensive and the

:24:38.:24:41.

end product, the price has quadrupled. That cannot be right and

:24:42.:24:47.

that cannot be the only time this is happening. Kevan, do you think you

:24:48.:24:51.

made the right decision last time when you voted to remain?

:24:52.:25:00.

Definitely. No doubt about it. Since then, the Iron Curtain has come

:25:01.:25:07.

down. Access and into the EU nations has been achieved by Poland and a

:25:08.:25:11.

number of European -- eastern European countries. It is a more

:25:12.:25:15.

complicated situation. You get freedom of movement, which you did

:25:16.:25:19.

not originally have. It was quite an agonising choice. But in the end I

:25:20.:25:26.

looked at both campaigns, and by the way I am not supporting or

:25:27.:25:30.

denigrating either campaign, I looked at it and the final question

:25:31.:25:37.

I asked myself was, from the campaigns, which side, if any, is

:25:38.:25:41.

actually quoting other authorities and other sources? And which side,

:25:42.:25:45.

if any, is just quoting about itself and what it thinks? I came to the

:25:46.:25:51.

conclusion that on the Remain side there are facts and figures that

:25:52.:25:55.

have been put down, some of them are projections, admittedly. On the

:25:56.:26:07.

Remain side... The Leave side were not citing any authorities. There

:26:08.:26:10.

was not really anything that I could pin the tail on the donkey. There

:26:11.:26:15.

was no donkey to put in -- pin the tail on, put it that way. In the end

:26:16.:26:21.

I felt Remain was a safe bet. If we do not leave now, there is nothing

:26:22.:26:24.

to say we could not leave and five or ten years. We could have another

:26:25.:26:29.

referendum. If we do leave now, it is a mistake. There is no way we

:26:30.:26:34.

would get back the rebates, the opt out to that we have been granted.

:26:35.:26:40.

Thank you both very much. June Bennett who will vote tomorrow to

:26:41.:26:45.

leave the European Union, as she did in 1975. And Kevin Mulloy, who has

:26:46.:26:50.

already voted to remain in the EU, like he did in 75.

:26:51.:26:55.

Sir Cliff Richard says he may take legal action against South Yorkshire

:26:56.:26:58.

police and the BBC for the way they pursued and reported

:26:59.:27:01.

unfounded allegations against him of sexual abuse.

:27:02.:27:10.

He believes there must have been illegal collusion between the events

:27:11.:27:15.

which led to a police raid of his home being broadcast on BBC News.

:27:16.:27:17.

This must be an enormous relief? To get the news a couple of days ago

:27:18.:27:31.

telling me that it was good news from the CPS was just fantastic. It

:27:32.:27:36.

is very difficult for me to explain to people what it felt like for me

:27:37.:27:43.

to be an innocent. But having these vile accusations thrown at me. The

:27:44.:27:47.

wording is insufficient evidence to prosecute. The CPS, it is what they

:27:48.:27:53.

do. There are certain terminologies they have two use. In this case if

:27:54.:28:00.

they -- they never say there is no evidence. They just say insufficient

:28:01.:28:05.

evidence. Nothing on which we can prosecute. In a way I still feel

:28:06.:28:09.

tarnished. Insufficient suggests that maybe there is something there.

:28:10.:28:14.

I know there isn't. I have had to to years of traumatic emotional trauma

:28:15.:28:22.

to get over. Do you think the laws should be changed to protect the

:28:23.:28:25.

identity of those who are accused? The Levenson report, that is a

:28:26.:28:32.

guideline Fathi police should behave. It says, except in

:28:33.:28:36.

exceptional circumstances, people should never be named unless they

:28:37.:28:42.

are charged. In the case of people like myself or anybody that is not

:28:43.:28:50.

charged... The name should never be out there, unless you have been

:28:51.:28:54.

charged. And here I am, 22 months and a week later, no charge. I do

:28:55.:29:02.

not like the idea of being collateral damage. And that is what

:29:03.:29:07.

I have been for 22 months. You want to campaign for the Lord to be

:29:08.:29:12.

changed on those who are accused. Do you think those who accuse should

:29:13.:29:18.

have anonymity for life? I can understand protecting children. But

:29:19.:29:22.

my accusers are all men, grown-up men. Probably in their 40s and 50s.

:29:23.:29:26.

I don't see why they should be protected. What about the police and

:29:27.:29:31.

how you were treated? And what about the BBC? There must have been

:29:32.:29:35.

illegal collusion. I have never known, I don't think, investigations

:29:36.:29:42.

take place with lighting and cameras and special angles for the

:29:43.:29:46.

helicopter. It seemed ridiculous. I feel I have every right to sue for

:29:47.:29:53.

the gross invasion of my privacy. Has it changed the way you trust

:29:54.:29:59.

people? To a certain extent, yes. I am cagey having pictures taken with

:30:00.:30:03.

people. I have always had photographs taken with grandparents

:30:04.:30:06.

and their grandchildren. I have had my arms around the grandchildren. I

:30:07.:30:11.

am a family entertainer. That is what I do. That is one thing I'm

:30:12.:30:16.

going to have to try to get rid of. Cliff Richard. Still to come, Ellie

:30:17.:30:21.

Butler's grandfather tells us he will fight so that no other child

:30:22.:30:25.

has to suffer like his granddaughter. In the next 30

:30:26.:30:28.

minutes, we will talk about the control early's murderer, Ben

:30:29.:30:34.

Butler, exerted over his family. And the mystery of the missing

:30:35.:30:38.

children's author. Friends plead for her safe return.

:30:39.:30:44.

With the news, here's Joanna in the BBC Newsroom.

:30:45.:30:49.

It's the final day of campaigning before we get to decide

:30:50.:30:54.

whether we should stay in or leave the European Union.

:30:55.:30:59.

Both sides of the debate are making their last-ditch

:31:00.:31:01.

Speaking this morning David Cameron says he doesn't believe

:31:02.:31:04.

there are any risks to the UK to staying in the EU.

:31:05.:31:07.

Meanwhile Leave campaigner, Boris Johnson, who's on a whirlwind

:31:08.:31:09.

tour of England, says it's time for a "totally

:31:10.:31:11.

new relationship with our partners across the channel".

:31:12.:31:14.

The grandfather of Ellie Butler has told this programme

:31:15.:31:16.

there should be a public inquiry into the circumstances that led up

:31:17.:31:19.

Yesterday Ellie's father, Ben Butler, was found

:31:20.:31:22.

He inflicted catastrophic head injuries on his daughter

:31:23.:31:29.

at their home in south-west London in October 2013.

:31:30.:31:32.

She died less than a year after she was returned

:31:33.:31:34.

to her parents' care following a custody battle.

:31:35.:31:36.

A High Court judge sided with the couple despite objections

:31:37.:31:39.

Ellie's grandfather, Neal Gray, told Victoria he was worried

:31:40.:31:46.

I just had a premonition that Ellie wouldn't be safe. And I think

:31:47.:32:00.

Justice Hogg made... Yeah, yeah, that's the name. I think Mrs Justice

:32:01.:32:06.

Hogg made a big mistake. I don't think she followed proper procedure

:32:07.:32:10.

of the law. She didn't give proper direction from the social workers

:32:11.:32:12.

who were independent business people, you know, they were

:32:13.:32:15.

independent they worked for themselves, social workers. Yeah,

:32:16.:32:19.

they were private social workers as opposed to the local authority. They

:32:20.:32:25.

hadn't read the notes or they weren't allowed to look at any

:32:26.:32:31.

history three months prior to them taking over.

:32:32.:32:33.

Rory McIlroy has pulled out of competing at this summer's

:32:34.:32:36.

Olympic Games in Rio over concerns about the Zika virus.

:32:37.:32:38.

The world number four golfer says although the risk of infection

:32:39.:32:41.

is considered low, it's not one he's prepared to take.

:32:42.:32:43.

In a statement Mcllroy says his and his family's health

:32:44.:32:46.

Festival-goers are being urged "not to set off" for Glastonbury due

:32:47.:32:49.

Organisers said current wet weather and ground

:32:50.:32:52.

People have reported queuing for more than five hours

:32:53.:32:55.

More than 100,000 people are expected to descend on Worthy Farm

:32:56.:33:05.

A local MP tweeted to say he hasn't seen it this bad for years and Mr

:33:06.:33:13.

Write to festival organiser Michael Eavis.

:33:14.:33:15.

Our correspondent Fiona Lamdin has managed to get on site.

:33:16.:33:19.

What's it like? A couple of tents are slowly going up. These are the

:33:20.:33:24.

lucky people who have managed to get in. Yes, as you say, gridlock

:33:25.:33:30.

outside the festival. They have asked people not to travel if they

:33:31.:33:34.

come today and if you are live locally, you have been asked not to

:33:35.:33:38.

travel unless it is urgent. The rain, it is taking hours for people

:33:39.:33:41.

to park and these guys left Sheffield and you say it took you 16

:33:42.:33:45.

hours to get here. Tell us about your trip here. Well, we set off at

:33:46.:33:51.

six o'clock and we got outside festival at 10.30 and we didn't move

:33:52.:33:57.

this morning until 8am and that's how long it took. It was all because

:33:58.:34:06.

of traffic in car park. Yesterday I saw the car parks, they were like

:34:07.:34:10.

lakesment tell me what the car park was like when you got out this

:34:11.:34:13.

morning? It wasn't actually that bad. We were in the camper van

:34:14.:34:17.

fields because our friend who had to have a sleep because he no sleep for

:34:18.:34:22.

16 odd hours. We have come down in the camper van. The camper van

:34:23.:34:26.

fields aren't too badmed we are not sure what the car parks are like,

:34:27.:34:31.

but the camper van fields were bad. The people were bringing the trucks

:34:32.:34:36.

to bring all the cars in. OK, well you are the lucky ones that managed

:34:37.:34:40.

to get here. They may have queued for hours, but they have a fantastic

:34:41.:34:46.

spot of the Pyramid Stage. Well, that's good at least. I hope

:34:47.:34:48.

they have a good time! Join me for BBC

:34:49.:34:49.

Newsroom Live at 11am. Here's some sport now

:34:50.:34:53.

with Sally in Paris. Good morning. It is a beautiful day

:34:54.:35:03.

here in Paris especially if you're a Northern Ireland fan. They made it

:35:04.:35:08.

through to the last 16 last night despite a 1-0 defeat to Germany. A

:35:09.:35:12.

heavier defeat would have seen them go out, but their goalkeeper,

:35:13.:35:16.

Michael McGovern performed heroics to take them through to the

:35:17.:35:19.

knowledge-out stages where they could face Wales. Disharmony in the

:35:20.:35:23.

England camp perhaps. Reports suggest that some weren't happy with

:35:24.:35:28.

the changes manager Roy Hodgson made for the final group game against

:35:29.:35:35.

Slovakia. The Football League fixtures are out. Fulham face a trip

:35:36.:35:41.

to Newcastle. And Andy Murray has been named second seed in the men's

:35:42.:35:44.

draw for this year's Wimbledon tournament which starts on Monday.

:35:45.:35:47.

Novak Djokovic is the number one seed. Britain's Johanna Konta is

:35:48.:35:53.

seeded 17th in the women's draw. That's your sport. More in the next

:35:54.:35:56.

hour. Thank you very much.

:35:57.:36:03.

Nexts the mystery of the missing writer.

:36:04.:36:07.

Helen Bailey is a children's author who wrote the Electra Brown series.

:36:08.:36:10.

The 51-year-old disappeared from her home 11 weeks ago.

:36:11.:36:12.

She'd gone for a walk with her miniature dachshund Boris

:36:13.:36:14.

and had reportedly said she "needed a little time to herself".

:36:15.:36:19.

Police have ruled out foul play, but what happened

:36:20.:36:21.

Our reporter James Longman has been talking to those who knew her.

:36:22.:36:29.

Tell us more Helen Bailey missing since 11th April. People are

:36:30.:36:35.

wondering what happened to her because it peaked their interests

:36:36.:36:38.

because she left this note saying she needed some time to herself. Not

:36:39.:36:42.

just because she is a children's author, but because she left this

:36:43.:36:45.

particular note and people are wondering why she may have left a

:36:46.:36:48.

note and they are pointing to her blog. She blogs on bereavement. Her

:36:49.:36:55.

husband died five years ago and she writes this blog called Planet Grief

:36:56.:36:59.

and she has written about how much his death affected her. Her friends

:37:00.:37:03.

wondered if there was a resurgence of grief. After two and a bit months

:37:04.:37:07.

her friends are saying it is uncharacteristic of her to not have

:37:08.:37:11.

got in touch. The police have put out appeals. They have even asked

:37:12.:37:14.

football fans to get in touch because she was a big Arsenal

:37:15.:37:20.

supporter. She was a season ticket holder at Arsenal and she has been

:37:21.:37:24.

seen with Arsene Wenger she met him in 2012ment her friends put together

:37:25.:37:29.

a Facebook page. It is called Where Is Helen Bailey. Over 80,000 people

:37:30.:37:33.

have looked at that page. There are still a lot of unanswered questions

:37:34.:37:35.

as I've been finding out. It's a mystery that's

:37:36.:37:43.

left everyone baffled. A woman and her dog leave home one

:37:44.:37:45.

day and never come back. This is Royston in Hertfordshire

:37:46.:37:48.

and it's where Helen Bailey lives. She was last seen over two

:37:49.:37:52.

months ago, but she hasn't Helen Bailey is a children's author

:37:53.:37:55.

and blogger and behind On 11th April this year,

:37:56.:38:02.

she left her home , writing a note to her partner saying she needed

:38:03.:38:10.

some time to herself. She left with her dog Boris

:38:11.:38:12.

and headed to the Heath nearby on which she would

:38:13.:38:15.

often go for walks. three walkers report seeing her that

:38:16.:38:17.

morning and there was also a possible sighting the next day

:38:18.:38:20.

of a bedraggled woman walking There's been no activity

:38:21.:38:22.

on her bank accounts, her phone hasn't been used,

:38:23.:38:35.

and she's not contacted Her neighbour, Mavis Drake,

:38:36.:38:37.

is very confused. I would like to think that she has

:38:38.:38:39.

done an Agatha Christie perhaps and is writing

:38:40.:38:42.

a book secretly somewhere I can't believe that she's done

:38:43.:38:44.

anything bad to herself at all, And I'm hoping that

:38:45.:38:48.

Boris and she are OK. So this is the only thing that

:38:49.:38:55.

worries me, she would not do anything to hurt anybody,

:38:56.:39:09.

definitely not, so that's why I think we're all very

:39:10.:39:11.

worried about her. Helen, we send you all our very best

:39:12.:39:14.

love and care. We are longing to see you again

:39:15.:39:26.

and we miss you, Helen, we miss you. Helen kept a blog about bereavement

:39:27.:39:30.

following the death of her husband, He drowned while on holiday

:39:31.:39:33.

with Helen in Barbados. When Bad Things Happen

:39:34.:39:36.

in Good Bikinis. Her final blog post

:39:37.:39:39.

earlier this year marked the five-year

:39:40.:39:42.

anniversary of his death. There's been speculation

:39:43.:39:46.

that her disappearance is the result Her new partner, Ian

:39:47.:39:48.

Stewart, put out an Shelley Whitehead

:39:49.:39:52.

was Helen's coach and They'd come to this

:39:53.:40:11.

north London park for She made a comment on my Facebook

:40:12.:40:14.

page the day she went missing, that morning,

:40:15.:40:21.

at about 10.30am. I post every day and something

:40:22.:40:23.

resonated with her and she made a comment on that

:40:24.:40:28.

and that was the last time. So you posted "Three ways to fail

:40:29.:40:31.

at everything in life". Blame all your problems on others,

:40:32.:40:34.

complain about everything, and not It just doesn't look like a comment

:40:35.:40:36.

from someone who's in a particularly She says Helen has moved

:40:37.:40:46.

on from her sadness and had no idea why her

:40:47.:40:54.

friend had vanished. Do you have any idea what might

:40:55.:40:56.

be going through her I could only wish I knew

:40:57.:40:59.

because this is so uncharacteristic, it doesn't make

:41:00.:41:02.

sense at all for Helen to have So what goes through my head is,

:41:03.:41:05.

where is she? Has she fallen somewhere

:41:06.:41:14.

where If she was watching now,

:41:15.:41:15.

what would you say? Let somebody know, just to let

:41:16.:41:21.

someone know you are safe. Have your space, have

:41:22.:41:24.

your time, just let The police appeal for information

:41:25.:41:25.

went out last month, but they aren't everywhere else

:41:26.:41:31.

are still as confused as ever. The grandfather of Ellie Butler

:41:32.:41:44.

has told this programme there should be a public inquiry

:41:45.:41:46.

into the circumstances that led up Yesterday Ellie's father,

:41:47.:41:49.

Ben Butler, was jailed for at least He inflicted catastrophic head

:41:50.:42:06.

injuries on his daughter in October 2013.

:42:07.:42:09.

She died less than a year after she was returned to her parents' care

:42:10.:42:13.

following a custody battle. A High Court judge sided with the couple

:42:14.:42:17.

despite objections from the police and social services. Ellie's

:42:18.:42:23.

grandfather Neal Gray gave us his reaction to the sentence its handed

:42:24.:42:29.

down by the court in an exclusive TV interview. The sentence should be

:42:30.:42:36.

more severe. He should have had at least 40 years and no reinition and

:42:37.:42:41.

the same as the partner, Jennie Gray should have had at least 20 years

:42:42.:42:45.

because I think they're both culprits. They caused the death of

:42:46.:42:49.

Ellie and they covered it up. It is interesting you say and so

:42:50.:42:52.

should the partner, Jennie Gray, that's your daughter? It was my

:42:53.:43:00.

daughter. . I have disowned her. Through, because you don't think one

:43:01.:43:07.

of your own off spring could be possibly involved in a terrible

:43:08.:43:12.

tragic crime. Unfortunately, she was. And... Do you accept that she

:43:13.:43:22.

was under his control? That he was domineering, violent, abusive, and

:43:23.:43:27.

controlled her? I think yeah, I understand that he was violent and

:43:28.:43:33.

controlling, but I think she is also capable of being the same with him.

:43:34.:43:40.

So I would say it is 50/50. Right. You and your wife, Linda, cared for

:43:41.:43:46.

and nurtured Ellie for five of her six years... Yes. Tell us a little

:43:47.:43:50.

bit about Ellie. What was she like? Beautiful. Excuse me... Bubbly,

:43:51.:44:05.

gorgeous little girl, very brainy and intelligent, and very loving.

:44:06.:44:13.

She was very clever. She was polite. She liked playing games. She had

:44:14.:44:21.

lots of friends at her school. And the stories that Butler and her are

:44:22.:44:26.

saying that she was rude and lazy are complete and utter false lies.

:44:27.:44:30.

She was a gorgeous little girl and it was a great privilege, excuse me,

:44:31.:44:38.

to have been her grandparent. I wonder what you thought Mr Gray

:44:39.:44:41.

when you saw Ben Butler and your daughter on TV as we saw in that

:44:42.:44:47.

clip, protesting their innocence, saying that they had been a victim

:44:48.:44:50.

of a miscarriage of justice? I thought it was a complete and utter

:44:51.:44:58.

joke. Because after that clip was shown, he got hold of a chap called

:44:59.:45:03.

Max Clifford a PR guru who is now also inside and I think their idea

:45:04.:45:08.

was to milk the system for as much money as they could possibly get.

:45:09.:45:09.

Right. It is an utter farce. Do you believe your daughter

:45:10.:45:22.

genuinely believed Ellie had died in an accident, which is what his story

:45:23.:45:29.

was? I don't think she did believe she died in an accident. I think she

:45:30.:45:36.

knew what had happened. She knew what he was capable of. She had

:45:37.:45:41.

inflicted injuries herself several times. Through the loss of other

:45:42.:45:49.

children. Why would she cover up the murder of her daughter by her

:45:50.:45:55.

partner? I don't know. That is a question I cannot answer. I often

:45:56.:46:02.

sold search myself, and my wife used -- my wife used to sold search,

:46:03.:46:08.

asking why. When you have a child your number one priority is always

:46:09.:46:14.

the child. For anybody. Whether it is a father, a mother, grandfather,

:46:15.:46:19.

grandmother, the child is the most important thing in this world. They

:46:20.:46:24.

are precious. It is a privilege to have a child in my eyes. If you have

:46:25.:46:33.

a child you have to look after that child completely and utterly.

:46:34.:46:40.

Without it, many nasty things would happen, which have happened in the

:46:41.:46:45.

past years. I believe the social services laws have got to be brought

:46:46.:46:51.

into the 21st century. I also believe that the family court system

:46:52.:46:55.

as it is today, has got to be changed radically and brought into

:46:56.:47:02.

the 21st century. Less secrecy? Less secrecy, yes. Open it completely.

:47:03.:47:10.

But in particular cases, keep the child's name anonymous, if that has

:47:11.:47:19.

got to be. The child has got to be kept number one. That is the most

:47:20.:47:25.

important thing. I don't think the establishment has learned. We have

:47:26.:47:29.

heard Baby P, we have that victorious Colombia -- Victoria Klim

:47:30.:47:37.

be. So many inadequacies of the social services or the family

:47:38.:47:41.

courts. Somebody has got to stand up and make sure that no other child,

:47:42.:47:48.

possibly, doesn't get hurt like my grand daughter got hurt. Neal Gray.

:47:49.:47:55.

Let me read some of your messages. And says she has just seen the

:47:56.:48:01.

grandfather and what a brave, wonderful person he is. Somebody

:48:02.:48:04.

must be responsible for this terrible tragedy. We must have a

:48:05.:48:09.

public enquiry. The judge should be held in Cannes -- accountable. Kevin

:48:10.:48:13.

is a serving police officer. Seeing the emotions has reduced him to

:48:14.:48:19.

tears, and that is not easily done. Alison found it absolutely

:48:20.:48:24.

heartbreaking. I hope Ellie's grandfather finds peace. There are

:48:25.:48:29.

so many of these. Jules says, Neal Gray, my heart is broken for you.

:48:30.:48:32.

Let's talk to Claire Throssell whose two children were murdered

:48:33.:48:35.

in a house fire started deliberately by her abusive ex-husband.

:48:36.:48:37.

Emma Williamson is an expert in coercive control

:48:38.:48:43.

Peter Gregg is from The Children's Society.

:48:44.:48:56.

The reason we have got you together is to talk particularly about the

:48:57.:49:03.

control that Ben Butler, the father of Ellie, the partner of Jenny Gray,

:49:04.:49:15.

exerted over his family. Emma, I think it would be helpful to

:49:16.:49:15.

describe coercive control. Good morning. Can I just start by

:49:16.:49:18.

offering my condolences to Ellie's family, her grandfather in

:49:19.:49:24.

particular. This is a horrific case. In terms of coercive control, what

:49:25.:49:28.

we know from decades of research is that when we have spoken to victims

:49:29.:49:34.

of domestic violence, women in particular, coercive control those

:49:35.:49:38.

actually cannot see. If you have a physical assault and you have a

:49:39.:49:42.

bruise, other people can see it but -- cannot see it but you can see it

:49:43.:49:48.

yourself. Coercive control is about manipulating everyday situations. It

:49:49.:49:52.

is about controlling her somebody reacts to a given situation. People

:49:53.:49:57.

talk about walking on eggshells. They talk about having to respond

:49:58.:50:00.

and reacted to their partner in order to keep some control, but

:50:01.:50:06.

ultimately their abusive partner always has that control. There were

:50:07.:50:10.

so many horrible texts Butler sent to his partner, and notes. One was,

:50:11.:50:18.

just watch your mouth. Your mouth is the trigger for me. Yes. I think we

:50:19.:50:26.

could give many examples from research we have been doing with the

:50:27.:50:29.

victims of domestic abuse around coercive control. At some points you

:50:30.:50:35.

do not necessarily need to have a direct threat. There is not a direct

:50:36.:50:41.

threat to kill. That individual understands what will happen and

:50:42.:50:45.

that they are abdicating responsibility. The blame is put

:50:46.:50:48.

onto the victim. In terms of the children in particular in this case,

:50:49.:50:54.

there was an expectation that she would actually abused the children

:50:55.:50:57.

on his behalf. That was being manipulated and controlled by him.

:50:58.:51:04.

Cler, you have experienced this kind of control. I wonder if you would

:51:05.:51:07.

feel comfortable in telling our audience? Yes. My ex-husband was

:51:08.:51:15.

very controlling. He would contact me many, many times in a day. Up to

:51:16.:51:20.

16, 17 phone calls a day wanting to know where we were, what we were

:51:21.:51:25.

doing. If I took the children out for the day, he would punish me when

:51:26.:51:29.

he came for home from work. He would put us all down, destroy our

:51:30.:51:35.

self-confidence. In the end you just look in the mirror and you do not

:51:36.:51:40.

recognise yourself any more. It is very hard to break that cycle. The

:51:41.:51:50.

boys showed so much courage to do that. In what way? They used to

:51:51.:51:58.

stick up for me. They used to say, don't speak to my mum like that. And

:51:59.:52:02.

I realised that I had to take them out of that. Children are like

:52:03.:52:07.

rainbows they absorbed the light and reflected back. I did not want my

:52:08.:52:14.

children reflecting that behaviour back to anybody else. They knew it

:52:15.:52:20.

was wrong. Like you say, they walk around on eggshells. They never knew

:52:21.:52:26.

what mood he would be in. Again, I got abusive messages, abusive texts.

:52:27.:52:31.

It was a pattern of behaviour. It never seems to break until you get

:52:32.:52:37.

the courage to do it yourself. Peter, what is the children's

:52:38.:52:41.

Society review of the Ellie Butler case? A tragic and horrific story.

:52:42.:52:47.

Listening to Ellie's grandfather makes it absolutely clear that at

:52:48.:52:51.

the heart of this is Ellie, a young girl who was not being listened to.

:52:52.:52:56.

We work with young people facing neglect, abuse and other things

:52:57.:53:01.

going on in their lives. Too often. Nobody spends the time to ask them

:53:02.:53:06.

questions about what is going on in their lives. The serious case review

:53:07.:53:09.

in this instance has shown that time and time again opportunities were

:53:10.:53:13.

missed to listen to what Ellie would have had to say, and potentially

:53:14.:53:20.

avoided her tragic outcome. But in this particular case, as we now

:53:21.:53:26.

know, Mrs Justice Hogg, a judge at the family court division, had

:53:27.:53:33.

exonerated Ben Butler and effectively said, on all the local

:53:34.:53:37.

authority files, social workers, police, health etc, it should be

:53:38.:53:40.

prominent that Ben Butler had been exonerated. And private social

:53:41.:53:48.

workers were involved. It excluded Local Authority workers from being

:53:49.:53:52.

able to intervene. That is what the serious case review concluded. It

:53:53.:53:58.

does. The many agencies that did want to stand up early, they were

:53:59.:54:02.

not able to have that voice. The other thing the case review makes

:54:03.:54:06.

clear is that time and time again opportunities were missed to listen

:54:07.:54:10.

to Ellie in an independent way, in a Safeway, where parents were not

:54:11.:54:14.

there, where they could talk to her on her own. They were missed by the

:54:15.:54:19.

GP and on other occasions. If we can take anything from this sad case is

:54:20.:54:24.

-- it is that in these instances we have to listen to the voices of

:54:25.:54:28.

children. We have to trust what they are saying and respond. We have to

:54:29.:54:34.

put their welfare first. Emma, if one was being coercively controlled,

:54:35.:54:38.

how would you know at the time? That is Raly difficult. I think

:54:39.:54:44.

absolutely one of the saddest things about this case is that Ellie was

:54:45.:54:49.

not listened to, and neither were her grandparents. That would have

:54:50.:54:54.

made a massive difference in this case. That happens throughout

:54:55.:55:02.

contact cases. I also think front hand foremost in this case is not

:55:03.:55:06.

necessarily Ellie, but a perpetrator who within the domestic violence

:55:07.:55:11.

situation was coercively controlling his partner but also managed to

:55:12.:55:14.

control and manipulate everybody else. This is one case where perhaps

:55:15.:55:19.

the Local Authority got it right. They are often lambast -- lambasted

:55:20.:55:25.

for getting things wrong. But they said this person was not fit to have

:55:26.:55:30.

a child in his care. That caution and control does not stop at the

:55:31.:55:34.

front door. It affects everybody else trying to take action and those

:55:35.:55:39.

are brought into it. They think he is charming, they think he is a good

:55:40.:55:44.

enough bad. What is ready important is that when we get to the contact

:55:45.:55:49.

situation, abusive parents, most likely fathers, are seen as being

:55:50.:55:53.

good enough parents. There is an assumption of a 50-50 split. What we

:55:54.:55:59.

have shown time and time again is that is not appropriate if we want

:56:00.:56:03.

to put the child first. Cler, I wonder when a partner is being

:56:04.:56:10.

physically abusive, emotionally abusive, but they are manipulating

:56:11.:56:13.

the outside world, putting on this charming front, how do you, as the

:56:14.:56:20.

woman in the middle of that, let the world know something is not right?

:56:21.:56:25.

It is very difficult. You are walking a tightrope. You are trying

:56:26.:56:31.

to protect the children. And like they say, he is totally fooled -- he

:56:32.:56:39.

has totally fooled social services. He was difficult, he was aggressive,

:56:40.:56:43.

and I warned them about their behaviour -- his behaviour. He

:56:44.:56:47.

threatened to commit suicide in June. I was not listened to and the

:56:48.:56:51.

boys were not listened to because he presented a fund. But there can only

:56:52.:57:00.

keep it up for so long. And then it goes. But by then it is too late.

:57:01.:57:04.

Thank you all very much for coming on the programme. In the Williamson,

:57:05.:57:13.

Peter Gregg and Clare. -- Ehmer. Some more comments from you. So many

:57:14.:57:19.

regarding the interview with Neal Gray. Karen found heartbreaking to

:57:20.:57:23.

watch. I wonder how the authorities can get it so wrong. I hope Ellie's

:57:24.:57:29.

grandad gets the public enquiry to hold those people accountable. This

:57:30.:57:34.

news from Germany. Investigators in Germany say if former nurse may have

:57:35.:57:38.

killed dozens of patients by injecting them with heart

:57:39.:57:44.

medication. The man was jailed last year from killing two people and

:57:45.:57:49.

attempting to murder two others, but a court has ordered the exhumation

:57:50.:57:53.

of 99 former patients at the hospital where he worked and have

:57:54.:57:58.

found traces of this heart drug in 27 of the bodies. This from Germany.

:57:59.:58:04.

Investigators say a former nurse may have killed dozens of his patients

:58:05.:58:08.

by injecting them with heart medication. This after the court

:58:09.:58:17.

ordered the exclamation of patients. They found traces of the drug in 27

:58:18.:58:23.

of the bodies. More on that coming up at 11. Thank you for your time.

:58:24.:58:25.

Back tomorrow at nine. Goodbye. Britain's best athletes

:58:26.:58:37.

head to Birmingham

:58:38.:58:40.

Victoria is joined by Neal Gray who talks about the murder of his granddaughter, Ellie Butler.

There is a look at the EU referendum and what people can expect after the vote.

Plus a report on the missing children's author who left her home in April and has not been seen since.