Episode 5 Sunday Morning Live

I'm Jane Hill, standing in for Naga Munchetty.

On today's programme: As the Russian drug doping scandal threatens

to cast a shadow over the Rio Olympics,

we'll ask Olympic gold medalist Tessa Sanderson whether it's

possible to kick all the cheats out of the Games.

Anger greeted the government's decision this week to delay

publishing their Childhood Obesity Strategy.

But is it politicians or the public who should take responsibility

One father and son team have taken matters into their own hands.

Former Destiny's child singer Michelle Williams tells us how

Kids can be cruel. Now I am older, I am like, what were they going

through? What made them feel like they had to taunt me. I was always

sure of me. And we have a gospel choir

here to perform for you. # Good morning, and welcome to

Sunday Morning Live. Here inside, on the sofa,

our guests are raring to go and so is Tommy Sandhu

to share your thoughts with us. Good morning. Good to have you here.

I will not sing it like the choir bed.

You can contact us by Facebook and Twitter.

Don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

Then we can all share the conversation.

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Email us at [email protected].

Tessa Sanderson is a six time Olympian, claiming gold

Professor Ellis Cashmore is a sociologist who has written

Robert Beckford is a theologian who is currently making

a radio documentary about cheating in sports.

And Adrian Hilton is a conservative academic and author, and the holder

We'll find out what for very shortly.

With just under two weeks to go until the start of the Olympics,

we discovered this week that track and field athletes from Russia

will be definitely banned from competing,

despite a last minute appeal, and all Russian competitors

This comes in the wake of a report by an independent commission

of the World Anti-Doping Agency which confirmed evidence

of widespread state-sponsored doping by Russian athletes.

Doping is nothing new in the Olympics,

perhaps the most notorious case coming when Canadian athlete

Ben Johnson won Gold in the blue-ribbon event,

the 100 metres, in 1988, only to be later stripped

of the title after failing a drugs test.

Where does this leave the Olympics and sport in general?

As doping techniques become more sophisticated, and in the case

of Russia, state-sponsored, is it now time to accept that

cheating is an unavoidable part of the Olympics?

Or will this ban serve as a warning that cheats will fall

Our first question this week, can the Olympics be free of cheats?

Also joining us down the line from our London

newsroom is Dr Paul Dimeo, who specialises in anti-doping

We will hear from him a little later. Tessa, I must start with you.

When you heard the sheer scale of this, what was going on with Russian

athletes, were you surprised? Not exactly. Cheating has been going on

for a long time. It has now come to the forefront in a big way. We are

recognising now that something has got to be done about it. This has

been going on for a very long time, even when I was competing. It is

frustrating when you're there, competing, and you're going to meet

other competitors, knowing that some people your event were on drugs. You

think, my God. You knew that was happening, are you had a suspicion

it was happening? We suspected it was happening. We could not prove it

at the time, not me personally. Our coach spoke to us, and usually other

people talking and things like that. You put it behind you and you

ignored it. For me, the main thing was to get out there and kick bot,

as we say, and try and win your competition. It is hard taking that

on board. I am delighted that had this has happened now. We can try

and stand this out. I do not know of the Olympics will be 100% drugs

free, but I think we are moving the rate way to stamp it out. As a

professional athlete, someone who trained so hard, a gold medal comes

at such a massive cost. If you, if fellow athletes, if someone won a

silver medal and the thought, the person who won the gold medal, I

have suspicions about them, what does that do to your? It kills you

inside. You feel that all the hard work that you have put in, that

medal should have been yours. But what do you do. You have to sit

there and take it on board. You feel frustrated about it. You have worked

just as hard and you know it is not a level playing field. That is what

sport is supposed to be. The ethos of sport is you start, you go and

have fun, but you want to win and be on the podium. You want to be sure

that you are their fate and squid and everybody is on the same sort of

level when you go out there to compete. Ellis Cashmore, this ban on

Russia, it is all track and field at the moment, it may turn out to be

all right in athletes. Tessa's point, we have to set an example?

People will not feel morally comfortable with the collective

band. You're punishing everybody for the transgressions of the few. It

might be quite a few, but never the less. It is a savage retribution.

What good will it do? People will say this will be the end of doping.

They were saying it back in 1988. We are well into the 21st century, and

doping is prevalent. I do not think this will do a scrap of good. If

they ban all Russian athletes, as a nation, that will probably encourage

individuals, because they will think they can get away with it. This came

about, not through positive dope test, but through a whistle-blower.

Someone squealed on the Russians, Bennett expanded. What is going on

at the moment is a massive distraction. There are political

mighty nation is going on that we do not know about. Is this not sending

out the message that doping is wrong? -- there are political issues

going on. It happened in 1988. Never a week goes by without a massive

doping case that makes us all see, we need to do something about this.

We have to stamp it out. Athletes have made it clear that they are

going to take dope and they will always be ahead of the curve. An

abundance has been done so blatantly, so clearly, so many. If

you do not draw the line somewhere, and do it as they are looking to do

now, a total ban, you cannot. Mike Dewar punishing the innocent. I feel

for the innocent, the people who are training. In Russia, it has been

proven that the majority are doing this. It is blatantly cheating. You

have to draw the line for the sake of young people who look on athletes

and say, they are our icons. Young people are quite fickle. They will

follow their icons and it can lead to death. You're punishing everyone.

I am not saying that the innocent people, it is a shame. They are

caught up in this. At the end of the day, if you do not draw the line and

say, this is the message, you cannot do this, you will be ruining it for

the whole of your country, we have got to do it that way. I disagree

with what you're saying. There is a potential policy where they are

trying to see whether a couple of athletes could go through another

testing procedure and compete, not under the Russian flag, they would

be independent competitors. Robert Beckford, what does this say about

the Olympic ideal? Above all other sports, the Olympics is meant to be

the optimum? Completely. We are missing out on the fact that the

Olympics and sport is fundamentally about taking part. It is the value

and the virtue that one develops by being a competitor. Competition in

the true sense, striving together. That is what we have missed. When

you make winning everything, which has happened with sport right across

the board, we corrupt the idea of competition. We are trying to

explore that in a radio documentary, what it means to play and have sport

when you approach it with integrity and honesty. Tessa was a fantastic

athlete and performed cleanly. The vast majority of athletes want to do

that. That is what you are missing out on, Ellis. It is a professional

business. Commercial viability has taken over in a big way. We all have

to try and go to the next level in our jobs, but you do not cheat the

whole world. Robert, you are simply wrong. Athletes do not compete for

the joy. They compete to win at all costs. The evidence is before us. I

would argue that this part of the problem. What we need to do is

educate sportspeople from an early age on the virtue of sport. Sport is

good for its own good, it has intrinsic worth. That is what we're

out on. The money is part of it, we cannot ignore it, but we have to

start with the positive anthropology, encourage people to

see the value of working together, being part of the team, and what

that can do for your individual well-being as well as the well-being

of the group. Adrian Hilton, is some of this about money, because there

are athletes out there who do not do it for the money? This is not the

sins of the few, it is the sins of the state. If the state is involved

in effectively trying to corrupt all, then all should be punished.

Then why punish those who resisted the state? Do we know anybody

resisted the state? Yes, the McLaren reports suggest that some athletes

were forced against their will to take drugs. This has become a cat

and mouse game. You detect one drug and another pops up. One person's

cheating is another person's caffeine regimen. Kathleen was

outlawed until 2004. It is now permitted. In an era when medals are

lost on 100th of a second, you can see how that would allow you to go a

little bit faster, a little bit longer. That is a grey area. Adrian

makes a valid point, what is striking about all of this in the

last week, it is state-sponsored? They were swapping the urine samples

through a hole in the wall. Let's not kid ourselves. Every country in

the world has drug cheats. It is going on everywhere. While our

narrowly on Russia, we have a fall guy, a scapegoat. As long as we

kicked Russia out of the Olympics, we will be OK, we will have a clean

Olympics at Rio coming up. I do not think the governing body would have

made that decision on the basis of, let's keep Russia out. What they

have done, rightly so, they have said that this is our sport, we want

to keep it clean, we want a level playing field. We want some of the

fun. We want to make sure that everyone wins cleanly. They had to

make the decision they did. Sorry. Some brain doping is not detectable.

Transcranial direct stimulation exists. Let's speak to Paul Dimeo.

Thank you for joining us, Dr Paul Dimeo. Is it widespread? In your

experience, to your knowledge, is it more widespread than people watching

this morning realised? Yes, I would say it is. The best estimates from

experts and social scientists is probably between 10-20% across the

board. In some sports, that is law and in some sports it is higher. I

would say yes, at the moment they are fighting a battle which is

uphill. As Ellis points out, every country has had positive tests over

the last few years. Historically, it has never been tackled properly.

There are numerous countries we do not know much about because they are

doing very little testing. While Russia was testing and covering it

up, there are certain countries which we do not know anything about.

I think this line between who is clean and who is dirty is very

blurred. I take that on board in the sense

that we know it is not just Russia, it is going on in other countries.

But what we are led to believe right now is... I didn't really realise

before that they are sponsored to do something like this in your country.

But all of this must suggest that we should put resources and energy into

catching the cheap. Even more of an effort, so that we can reaffirm the

values of sport. Can I turn it on its head, what if all doping was

allowed? Would that count as a level playing field? Ellis, you said if

athletics lifted its ban, its problems would vanish. Why so?

Doping was legal in sport up until the 70s, then they changed the

rules, largely to protect athletes rather than catch cheats. They were

not cheap then, of course. I think the time has arrived where we had to

admit defeat in one sense and say that the war on doping will never be

won, so let's try to create a safer environment, an environment in which

athletes can use whatever dope they like, but we ask them to declare it

so we can monitor that they are using it safely, that the substances

are pure and they are not parroting their health. At the moment, they

are. I think that, really and truly, you can't have a level playing field

like that, to be taking drugs for everybody. Unless it is legally

prescribed by your doctor, I am not really for that. I really think it

should be stamped out, there has to be an example. That the problems

with heart and things like that out there, you try to take illegal drugs

would she think might push you to the next mile for you to do well, we

have a problems. -- try to take illegal drugs which you think might.

We have to try to stamp it out. It sends a very bad message to young

people. You don't do an hour of PE because you can do 15 minutes and

you can make up for the rest with dope. It is a myth, dope does not

win races like that, it means you can train harder and longer, that is

all. It is not the magic bullet. But a young person going through, young

people who look at their icons, they do not go through the facts and

think doping does not make you win, because if that person has won you

would think, I will do that! A young person looking on and seeing

everybody... Oh, their icons are taking drugs, nothing is done about

it, I think that can lead to the detriment of the sport. That we

could do something about it, it could be to make the sport safer for

them. -- but we could do some thing about it. Tommy, what are the

viewers saying? I think some of the panel might be on something was

morning! Just Kathleen?! Lots of people are

saying that the Olympics will never be free of cheats, others think it

is unfair to ban those who test negative. An anonymous text says the

best way to stop drug cheats is to ban anyone found cheating for life,

but the authorities seem scared of doing this. Elaine says I think it

is very unfair to ban all the Russians and, of course, Russia is

not the only place where this is happening. Thomas says, no,

athletics is straight up corrupt and that is just the waiters. Vincenzo

says any human activity involving a lot of money will always attract

cheats and swindlers, the Olympics is no exception. That is the point

Ellis was making about wanting to win. Helen says yes, but only of any

failed drugs test results in the whole team being sent home

immediately. The issue seems to be that it takes time to send the

cheats. Athletics is corrupt, a very strong statement? I think the ethics

are corrupt. When you affirm winning at all costs, you basically say to

any athlete that anything is permissible as long as you win. I

think we need to think more carefully about sporting ethics, the

values that we teach all the way through the system. Play, in the

classic theological sense, is a gift from God. It is something we should

all enjoy and do because it has intrinsic value within itself. I

think we should strive for that, keep working against the cheats,

because that is the higher ethic that we should support. But it is a

fairy story, it will not happen. It is like much of life, it is what you

strive for despite the opposition. I think you starting from a position

suggesting athletes want to cheat, I don't think they do. I would like to

bring in Paul, he knows so much about this. It is a very big

question to end on, what in the broadest sense do we do? Do you

argue that testing is getting a lot better and that it will pick up more

cheats, what are your thoughts going forward? The problem with testing is

that it is not really getting much better. Since Wada started

collecting international data there has been almost a doubling in the

number of tests collected, from 130,000 to over 280,000. The number

of positives returned stays much the same, just over 2%. It seems as if

the drug users are always ahead of the game. I am concerned that doping

and cheating being equated as the same thing. Whereas a lot of doping

cases are drugs which do not really enhance performance, they have taken

an inadvertently or in small dosages, this idea that all dopers

are cheats and corrupting the sport is a little bit overstated. Many

thank you, Paul. Thank you for your expertise and thank you for all of

you. That is enough caffeine for now. One last point with Tessa, you

are the one with an Olympic gold medal, what is your message as we

sit down and, one hopes, enjoyed a Rio Olympics? What is your message

to future and young people who want to be inspired? You can win without

cheating, simple as that. You can win without cheating. I have done

it. It is sad that the innocent are caught up in this, but you can win

without it cheating. Thank you very much, Teza. Plenty more debate to

come. Still to come on Sunday Morning

Live: Former Destiny's Child singer Michelle Williams tells us

what it was like singing for I was trying not to look at the

President and First Lady singing, but then I made sure I made eye

contact with both of them, just to encourage them and let them know,

I'm here for you, I got you. Theresa May has decided to delay

the publication of the Government's child anti-obesity strategy

to the autumn. The decision comes despite pleas

from NHS chief Simon Stevens and and TV chef Jamie Oliver

for the new Prime Minister to act swiftly to tackle

the growing obesity crisis. On Monday, local councils in England

also warned that Government cuts to public health funding

could hamper their efforts The charity Action On Sugar warns

that obesity will bankrupt the NHS But is it up to the Government

to keep us in shape, or should people take more

responsibility for their size? Well, two sons decided

to take their dad's weight issues into their own hands and make

a documentary about it. It's called Fixing Dad

and is on BBC Two tonight. He's a fantastic dad, he's been a

brilliant dad and he's a brilliant grandad. And if we don't do

something about it, no one else is going to. Everything from cancer,

heart attacks, strokes, kidney failure, buying this, impotence, it

will all be much more likely. And if there is a way of fixing that,

surely we need to look into it and challenge it. How are you feeling?

Stressed. What is the point in doing it? To make you learn how to do it.

Or to be out of my comfort zone? Yet? Why?

-- put me out of my comfort zone, yes? Why?

Unbelievable! There certainly seems

like there were plenty of ups Geoff Whitington and one

of his sons, Anthony, Lovely to have you with us. You were

wearing lycra earlier, Geoff! The journalist Carole Malone,

a previous participant in Celebrity Fit Club,

is here too. And body image campaigner

Fatima Parker. Also joining us down

the line from our Bristol newsroom is Dr Dawn Harper,

a TV doctor and GP. Geoff, I have to start with you. I

am told you have lost an awful lot of weight, how much? Seven stone

now. In what period? Since 2013. Pretty quickly. The got the first

eight months was the big one, they said this challenge that I had to

lose quite a bit, I lost about 5.5 stone in eight months.

It has been progressing since then. They is your two sons, one of whom

is here. What happened, and Thiney, how come you and your brother

decided to turn the tables and become apparent, almost, and said

you had to do something about this? It was and still is sometimes a

strange role reversal. We saw that dad had tried so many times to lose

weight and always put back on, so there was something else going on.

We set it into fit this, nutrition and mind, we said we would tackle

those areas and hopefully by doing something more holistic we would get

to the root of it. Put some pressure on sticking with the diet. That has

captured people's imaginations. It will hopefully inspire a lot of

people. You were worried from health perspective? What was your main

motivation? A big fear was around the foot, he was incredulous, very

poor circulation in his foot, the bones had collapsed in one and he

had diabetic ulcers on the other to do with type 2 diabetes, he was

having pretty grim conversations about potentially losing his foot if

things did not turn. The second but probably more significant thing was

the mental side of things. He was depressed. When we look back at it

now, we knew that. He had withdrawn from conversations become much more

of a recluse, was not seeing the grandchildren as much. We wanted the

old Geoff back. Carole, you have gone through your own ups and downs,

what do you make of this? It is a fantastic story. The difference is

that you have kept it off and I have not. I have lost weight four or five

times in my life, it is really difficult. It is incredible that

they have done this as a family, I think that if you are fat you have

to take personal responsibility. The fact that Theresa May has delayed

the childhood obesity thing, I don't think it matters. Governance can't

legislate how many calories you eat and how much exercise you do, people

have to want to lose weight, we are not doing it as a society. 60% of

adults in Britain are overweight, 30% of kids, we are not giving

anything about it. Governments can't. There has to be a cultural

change. The fat has to become Nasa in the way that smoking did,

currently it is not. -- being fat pads to become naff. But we are

making bigger clothes, wider train and plane seats. We tiptoe around

it. Doctors were recently told not to point out to overweight children

or adults that they were fat because it would humiliate and stigmatise

them. But we have to get over that. Better to humiliate a child than

have them at the age of 15 having a heart attack or getting a cancer,

because one in five cancers are caused by obesity. Fatima, Carole

says that smoking is to be considered OK, the smoking ban

changed attitudes, so her argument is that size and weight has to

become like the smoking issue? This is not a new, this has been

happening for hundreds of years. 100 years at least and over the last 50

years we have seen fat shaming. Where do you see the glamorising of

fat people? The gal I am not fat shaming. You are fat shaming the

public and yourself. I have hurt you in the Green room as King for advice

about losing weight. It will kill me if I don't. No, dear, it will kill

you to yo-yo dieter, up and down. It is not only fat people who had to

take care of themselves, everybody. He said that his father was

depressed because he was fat. He felt rejected by society. Why should

you reject fat people? I am not. You are. I am not excavation at your

speech, children listening now will commit suicide some of them, it is

2016 and you are saying the fat thing. Saying the nation should be

healthier... But not thinner. Fatima, the audience will not have

heard what was said in the green room. Let's try to explain some of

it. You have used the phrase fat shaming, one of the issues we are

talking about is that there are undeniable health implications of

being overweight, the risk of diabetes is much higher. Scare

tactics. There are health issues. There are limping to over ?300. The

athlete would no that. They run in America. We need to stop the fact

shaming. -- fat. It is about health and saving the lives of children.

You insult my body, my ship, you have insulted fat people. I have

not, I am a fat person. THEY ALL SPEAK AT ONCE

We need a society to be healthy, not thin. I am healthy. As my GP. I will

have to interrupt. Certain things you have said, I am absolutely

forth. I do think that one has to take responsibility for yourself. We

are looking at evidence that has been proven, heart problems, things

like that, what we call obesity. I do feel that people have to take

control of themselves, exercise lots. Myself, personally, I have

lost three stone. I feel great. But that is me personally. I commend

you, because I feel much more healthy. You must feel healthier, to

do lots more things, and the psychological aspects as well. Your

life Buzz is better if you take control and feel, this is the size

would I feel healthier. Let's stop a moment and speak to Doctor Dawn

Harper in Bristol. You have the medical expert knowledge. Is it

possible to be overweight and still be very healthy? Talk us through,

from your perspective as a doctor, the medical applications. I will

tell you when I am coming from. I believe that obesity could actually

bankrupt our NHS. We have heard from Carole, two thirds of British adults

are overweight. At the moment, there are 3.2 million people with diabetes

in the UK. 90% of those have type two diabetes. That is almost always,

not always, but almost always link to lifestyle and being overweight.

At the moment, we spend ?1 million an hour, every single hour, treating

diabetes on the NHS. We are also making 400 new diagnoses every day.

By 2025, we will have 5 million people in the UK with diabetes. You

do not need to be a mathematician to know that the NHS will not be able

to afford that. We have to wake up and smell the copy. Carole's point

is valid. We have normalised being overweight. I would even say in my

surgery, occasionally dabble think that I need to weigh and measure

someone, calculate their body mass index, and I am expecting them to be

overweight, and they are actually clinically obese. We are used to

seeing bigger people. This is not about fashion, how you feel, it is

about how healthy or unhealthy you are on the inside. We have got to be

realistic about this. When I first joined General practice, if I made

the diagnosis of type two diabetes, that diagnosis was met with fear.

People know it is a series condition. By the time you're

diagnosed with that, you have a 50% chance of already having

complications, series complications, heart disease, the risk of a stroke,

kidney disease, going blind. We amputate a lens every single week on

the NHS because of type two diabetes. You have outlined the

medical risk factors. What should we be doing about it? I say we, should

society, the government be doing more? What is the solution, you're

talking in strong terms? There is not one thing that is going to fix

this. We're talking about government strategies and so on, and that is

great. It is not just the government. I have a responsibility,

for example, as an individual, as a mother, as a doctor, as a

broadcaster. Whatever had I am wearing at the time, we all have a

responsibility to do something about this. If we do not, we'll will lose

the NHS. I speak about the NHS as if she is mum. For most people who have

been born in the UK, she has always been around. She may not be perfect

and you may think that occasionally she lets you down, but she has your

best interests at heart, and when you have lost, you will miss her.

Thank you for your expertise. Let's find out what people have been

saying. Lots of people agree that there is intense pressure on the

NHS. Others argue it is down to individuals to take their lives into

their own hands. Interesting, Tommy, thank you so

much. I want to come back to you, Geoff and Anthony. Really you had

enormous family help, lots of support. I am sure that this

extraordinarily beneficial. I would say it is crucial. You have got to

do it together. I was the one with the problem, yes, and I blamed

myself at the time. It was my fault. Is there a role for government? You

had the get up and go to change your life. I do things the government

should do? Yes, most of the information we're getting out there

is totally wrong. Everything I have been told about how to deal with my

diabetes was totally wrong. The guidelines are totally wrong. What

we are being given by the food industry, there is nothing there

that is good for you. What Don said about hospitals, let's get the

vending machines full of hospital -- full of rubbish out of the

hospitals. We are advocates of personal responsibility. We took

three years to solve this problem in our father. You talk about personal

responsibility, even his own family, apart from what we were trying to

do, only he could do this. He had tried before so something had to

change. Thank you so much. Fantastic to have

you with us. Another debate that will clearly continue. Thank you for

your comments as well. A reminder that you can

see Geoff and Anthony, along with his brother Ian,

in the documentary Fixing Dad Michelle Williams found fame as one

third of global singing # say my name. # are love you. -- I

love you. Despite international superstardom

and chart topping success, she has said that gospel music

is her passion, and earlier this week performed at the BBC

Gospel Prom at the Royal Albert Hall from leading gospel groups,

coming together to form Nikki Bedi met her to discuss

the impact gospel music has had on her since she first performed

at the age of seven, and how she thinks music can help

bring people together. When was the point that you realise

that your voice was something that you could not neglect, that you

wanted to use professionally, and personally? I was singing in the

school choir. We had an engagement somewhere. I was singing Reach Out

And Touch. I had the lead on the song. Something came over me. I will

never forget the feeling. It was like my entire body was flushed with

warmth. I did not know what happened, but I felt like at that

moment I was blessed, something happened. Spiritually or something.

Just a feeling came over me. Something that let me know, you have

a voice. Do you know all the words to that song? # reach out and touch

somebody's hand. # make this world a better place, if you can. When did

you move from being part of the Church choir into pop music? How did

that happen? Even in college, I was singing in a choir. I got a phone

call in my second year of studies. He said he is going on tour with the

singer by the name of Monica. She is a massive fire and be superstar. I

got the chance to edition and sing background for her. -- R

superstar. That opened my eyes to the fact I could do this

professionally and make money. Then I got the opportunity to join

Destiny's Child. Such a massive band, such incredible hits. There

must have been pressures that came with the fame associated with the

group? To this day, I still get uncomfortable. Sometimes I feel like

I want to do my music, and yes, have a platform to go on TV, but to be

recognised, I am still shy. You have spoken about feeling depression.

What triggers depression for you? How did you manage it? How do you

manage it? Fame and money exposes you, the vulnerabilities, you're in

securities, your imperfections. I had never dealt with the inner

issues that I had, and somehow, for some reason, they come out when you

are an adult. What was it for you? For me, it was bullying. Kids can be

cruel. Now I am older, I am like, what were they going through? Who

made them feel like they were not good enough, why did they have to

taunt someone? How important is your faith? It is number one, above

anything. If nothing ever wavers, it is never my faith. I may get down,

but I know there is faith. I know I can tap into it and reach for it.

# that gives me strength. You did the Gospel prom at the Royal lab at

all. Tell me how that felt. -- Albert Hall. Honey. It was amazing.

I had to make sure I had a moment when I was in the moment. The moment

I allowed myself that, I almost cried tears. I could not believe the

amazing is that end -- I could not believe the amazing sound that was

coming from the Albert Hall. I was inspired by the races and cultures.

People, we were one. Even if it was just for 65 minutes. That is why I

know there is goodness in this world. I was like, if we can just

multiply this entire hall by millions, it would cancel out all

the evil. You have been on stage, you have

been on film. You sang at the White House, for President Obama. What was

that like? It was an amazing experience, the first time that

gospel music had ever been sung at the White House, to give gospel

music platform. That is massive, to me. I was trying not to look at the

President and the first Lady, singing. I made sure I made eye

contact with both of them, to encourage them, to let them know, I

am here for you, I have got you, I'll of you, I thank you for

everything you have done for our country. I hope I can partner with

them and whatever image it is they have going on post-presidency. When

you're on stage, performing a gospel peace and singing, does it feel very

different from being on stage when using pop music? Whether I am

singing gospel music, contemporary gospel song, or whether I am singing

Survivor, there is something in there I can find that his

inspirational that I can tap into, to connect with people. As long as

my spirituality and my faith can bring somebody closer to what I

believe, then I have done my job. Michelle Williams there

on the unifying power of music. Someone to full Gospel music coming

at the end of the programme as well. -- some wonderful gospel music.

Later today the Pope joins young Catholics from around the world

Catholics see it as an opportunity - as the organisers put it -

to share with the whole world the hope of many young people

who want to commit themselves to Christ and others.

But what is happening to Christianity here in the UK?

Figures show that for the first time more of us identify as non-religious

than religious, and many churches are seeing dwindling numbers

A new book takes aim at the Church of England,

claiming that most of us now view it as out of touch with

Tommy's been out and about to see what the Church of England

and its leader - the Archbishop of Canterbury,

People on his home patch. We are in Canterbury, celebrated by

the poet Chaucer 's most famous work, to find out if anybody knows

who this guy is. It is the principal leader of the Church of England, but

how relevant is the Church in modern day Britain? Who is this person? I

don't know, sorry. Vicar of England, of the Church. Archbishop of

Canterbury. Justin Welby, the Archbishop of Canterbury. He is

trying to do more to do most people going to church, is it still

relevant in modern day Britain? Face means many different things to many

different people. I don't see the relevance in modern day, an update

with the times of what people think and beliefs. Lots of people don't go

to church, I don't go as much as I should. But it may be relevant to

get the community spirit together. Is the Church relevant in modern day

Britain? Maybe for some people, not for me. I believe it at that. I

don't go as regularly as my mum, but special services, Christmas and

Easter, it is nice because you get with your family. How is the Church

relevant in modern Britain? I don't think it is. Our country is

cosmopolitan, multicultural. You believe what you want to believe. I

think it can be a spiritual place, where you can think about your

faith, think about others and how you can help community. It can be so

stressful and rushed in the modern day that there is no time to think

about the bigger things. Orlando Bloom is from Canterbury, so is the

model Jodie Kidd, who is the coolest one out of the three, the

Archbishop, an actor or a model? Orlando Bloom. I have known him

since he was this high, so probably. He is probably less known than they

are. He was coolest, the Archbishop, Geordie -- Jodie Kidd or Orlando

Bloom? He is, he still looks cool. I love that, the Archbishop is cool!

So our question - is the Church still relevant?

Joining the panel, Linda Woodhead, one of the authors of

That Was The Church That Was: How the Church of England Lost

And rejoining the panel is Adrian Hilton, Ellis Cashmore

Linda, you have written this new book, I must start with you. That is

quite a contention, the idea that the Church is not relevant. Some

people watching might say, we have bishops in the House of Lords, how

much more establishment and part of the fabric of English life can you

get? It is still the established national church, but in an odd

situation, has fewer and fewer people have any affiliation to it.

When I was young, being Anglican, CRV, was just what you were. My

local school was Church of England, you went to Christmas services, it

was just part of life, almost unquestioned. Now that has gone. The

majority of people in this country call themselves nonreligious. A huge

turning point. In that sense, we are no longer a Christian country and

the Church of England, the largest church, has seen the largest

decline. We are looking at that and explaining that in the book. Is a

worry for you? You were brought up Anglican, does it concern you? It

does. I was baptised Anglican and have always been a member of the

Church of England. As well is studying this process I have lived

through it. It is a sadness to me, the Church that I care about and

have faith in, I feel it has gone in a different direction and left the

people of England behind. It does not have the relevance, it is not

the centre of our life and there is not room for most people to fully

participate. Adrian, it is just not relevant in the modern world? People

have been questioning the viability of the Church of England since 1534,

and the relevance of the Church in England since 597, one Augustine

Loof established his seat in Canterbury. These issues are not

new. What concerns me is the sociologist' obsession with viewing

Church through a certain lens, asking certain questions of certain

people and having a conceptual framework which reigns how you

interpret your data and lead to conclusions. If you focus on issues

of division and relevance, you will find dichotomies and tensions,

because human beings have those tensions. The Church is about the

whole of human flourishing, that is its relevance. You are making it,

located but it is simple. The majority of people over 60 call

themselves Christian, people under 20, it is less than one in ten. But

that is one sociological dimension, it is much more nuanced. In

cathedrals, for example, they are flourishing, reducing more than ?200

million a year for the Inland Revenue. -- producing more than. It

is flourishing in some parts, and some parts are struggling. Linda is

pointing to the age demographics. For younger people in this country,

is it still elephant? Is that a problem, for you? -- is it still

relevant? The Church is not a singular institution, not

homogenous. If we are looking particularly at the Church of

England and a white English demographic then, yeah, there are

serious issues of decline and an ageing population who go to church.

That is not true with West African Christianity, Afro-Caribbean

Christianity in Britain. Whilst we can affirm there is a problem within

Anglicanism, according to the metrics you have used, it is not

true across-the-board. That is really true and really important.

England is an usual, only about five countries in the world have a

nonreligious majority. I am not saying that the secularisation is

right and that religion will disappear, the world as Ahold is

more religious than ever. -- the world as a whole. Some country

similar to us more Christian than ever, it is an issue with England

and its particular churches. The Vice Ellis Cashmore, do you think it

is a problem? No. Religion does two things, the first is that it

responds to human curiosity about how things work and why they are

there in the first place. As Adrian said, that has been under fire since

the 16th century, the scientific Revolution, Copernicus, blame him.

The second thing is probably what we are really talking about today.

Religion supplies us with a moral architecture, a way to live, what

are stuck -- what Aristotle would have called the good life. What is

right and wrong. It is a road map that guides us. This is the

spiritual dimensional swat we are talking about. What the church has

to do, particularly the Anglican Church, is to respond to cultural

change in a way that is relevant to us. It is a sturdy architecture, its

guides us through our lives. As I see it, it is dragging its feet a

bit. It is not quite in sync with change. We have a case going on at

the moment, the Clive Larsson case, he is a member of the Church of

England who is gay and has just resigned his position in the church

because of the dispute over gay marriage. He has been living with

his partner in the rectory. There is a recognition that he is gay and he

lives in a stable partnership, but he can't get married. Tommy, what

are people saying? David says the church attempts to be relevant but

it is based on a book put together 2000 years ago. Tez says it depends

on who the priest or their careers. I think some probably do a great job

of making the religious teachings meaningful to today's society.

Elizabeth says religion generally has little relevance or connection

to the modern world. Paul says it has not been relevant for a long

time. The days of privilege afforded to the clergy are over and they are

now panicking. Thank you, Tommy. Robert, how do you see the future?

These things go in cycles. Go back 250 years, you see decline in the

Church of England but the Church found a way to become relevant,

rethink its mission and role in British society. I think it is a

fantastic moment in church history, it is a transfer the Anglican

tradition to sell buildings, race money to do mission and find other

ways of engaging with the real questions that people are concerned

about, but I am with Ellis in the sense that it needs to modernise or

just do a better job in terms of selling itself. There is great work

that bishops do in the House of Lords. Adrian? I despair at Ellis'

perspective. The Church's Ridge this not to be relevant, it is to tell

people about Jesus. -- the Church's job. It becomes about sexual organs

more than church organs when you come on this programme. On and, I am

so sorry. On this Sunday we had to leave it there. -- Linda, I am so

sorry. Thank you all, good to have you with us.

Thank you to our guests and also to you for your comments

And now to play us out, Ken Burton - one of the conductors of this week's

Gospel Prom at the Royal Albert Hall - with members of the Croydon

Seventh Day Adventist Gospel Choir perform a timely song about bringing

us together in these troubled times, Family of Man.

From me, Jane Hill and everyone here, goodbye.

# There was a small voice in isolation.

# It was declaring a simple truth. # It spoke of freedom and

understanding. # And the brotherhood of youth.

# For we are brothers # And we are sisters.

# In the family of man # Our endeavour is peace for ever

# And the future lies in our hands. # Do not dismiss as as foolish

dreamers # Though we are many, we are one

# Letters discover -- let us discover, and together we shall

overcome # For we are brothers

# And we are sisters # In the family of man.

# Our endeavour # Is peace for ever

# And the future lies in our hands. # For we are brothers

# And we are sisters # In the family of man

# For we are brothers # And we are sisters

# In the family of man # For we are brothers

# And we are sisters # In the family of man.

The England Men's and the England Women's cricket teams