Episode 8 Sunday Morning Live

A schoolgirl who went to Syria to join so-called Islamic State

is reportedly killed by an air strike.

Kadiza Sultana's family believes she wanted to come home.

Should we help young people like her to come back to the UK?

This is one of the most iconic images of the Troubles

A priest braving bullets, trying to save a life.

Edward Daly became a bishop and helped stop the violence.

Do modern religious leaders have such influence?

Premier League football returned this weekend, along with Paul Pogba

As we watch Britain's Olympians giving their all for the glory

of a gold medal, we ask, does football promote greed?

And, we need some help with directions!

# Show me the way to Amarillo

Why Tony Christie never tires of singing that song.

# And sweet Marie who waits for me

Every DJ I ever meet, they say, if we are having a bad night, and then

we put Amarillo on, the floor is full.

Tommy's away this week but we welcome Samanthi Flanagan

who's here to share all your thoughts with us.

And Twitter - don't forget to use the hashtag #bbcsml.

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Email us at: [email protected].

And, if you do get in touch, don't forget to include your name.

Let's meet some of our guests this week.

Owen Jones is a journalist and Guardian columnist.

Ajmal Masroor is an imam and commentator.

Kiran Bali is an interfaith leader and global CEO

Kadiza Sultana was just 16 when, together with two 15-year-old

friends, she left Britain to become a Jihadi bride in Syria.

Security camera footage revealed the girls' progress

They flew from Gatwick to Turkey and crossed the border into Syria.

The pictures were shown around the world, but it was too late

to prevent their plan to join so-called Islamic State.

Now it's reported that Kadiza has been killed in an air strike.

She kept in touch with her family in east London by phone,

and they believe she wanted to come home but was afraid

How to stop the radicalisation of young Muslims is one.

But should we also consider helping those who have become disillusioned

Should we make it easier for people to return from Syria?

How surprised should we be to learn of the apparent death

of somebody like Kadiza Sultana?

I am not surprised. If you go into a war zone, you take that decision,

and you die. I have said before, she should not

have gone there in the first place, they are crazy. Any young person

thinking this is an idealistic environment, I spoke to some members

of the families of Kadiza and they say she was radicalised by the

Internet. The family is not that religious.

This is very sad. The second thing, if anybody does not like Britain and

they want to change what they see, they should get involved, be

politically active, take roles, become social activists. If they

feel so vengeful and such hatred they want to harm us, it is a simple

equation, return the passport and leave. You cannot live in a country

and attack it. Those who have gone over, like Kadiza Sultana, if they

have remorse and want to return, we should assess its case-by-case but

they should not be a blanket them to return.

You say she made the decision, some say she was brainwashed.

I have heard that. Nick Ferrari, she was 16, does that allow any

abdication of responsibility for a decision?

Your question, should we make it easy people to return, the answer

is, no. I feel sorry for their family. She

was a bright young woman, she knew what she was doing, she managed to

raise funds and get a passport. It is sad she was radicalised. If at

that low level, jihadi bride, maybe we could hold out a hand to them.

But, for the young men, it is believed there could be up to 400

from Britain, who have gone as fighters, I don't want them back. If

they are rich jewel National, take away their British citizenship. If

they are not, then even look at taking away their citizenship. We

have 2000 people the security services have two monitor, we don't

need another 400. We talk about sympathy, and being

brainwashed, as a 16-year-old. There have been articles about people

being more sympathetic to children being sexually groomed, but not

militantly groomed. We need to distinguish between young

girls who are jihadi brides, and young men who go over to fight and

commit appalling crimes. The profile of those radicalised can

be different, disproportionately from families who are not religious.

The killers of Lee Rigby came from a Christian family. Those from

dysfunctional backgrounds, drug abuse, petty theft.

These young girls seem well adjusted. Going to Syria. The cases

are so different. It is not one size fits all. Pragmatically, there will

be a debate over sympathy for young girls. We hear about Mexican drug

gangs and young girls involved. Whether you have sympathy or not is

irrelevant. From a hard nosed, pragmatic perspective, isn't it

useful to bring those girls home in order to learn from their examples,

to prevent other people from going down the same path and get

intelligence? We heard from the family she wanted

to come home. Decisions need to be made on a

case-by-case basis. We have an impressionable teenager who has been

brainwashed who realises she has made a catastrophic decision. By

making it easier we can bring the girls back, get intelligence from

them, and utilise them as role models to ensure we don't

radicalised others. To say, don't follow this route.

What intelligence do you think we will get?

They are living in the back streets of Raqqa. What intelligence can we

get? Lots of people have gone over.

You would bring the fighters back? It depends.

Let me interrupt, the first question, what intelligence can be

brought back? I want to say, case by case. I have

no idea who is a fighter. I have said no to an open door policy to

return. Simply, if someone has remorse,

given clear indications they have regretted their decision, and were

So Yeon... Can I finish -- they were so young. If they had been groomed,

as being too impressionable. Those people who have gone, male or

female, committed heinous crimes, perpetrated crimes against all of

us, the clear message is this is not an open policy to return.

Let us go to headset Iqbal, the West Midlands lead on the governments

Prevent Programme. How does the Prevent Programme

prevent people from becoming involved in terrorism. But once they

are out there, should we make it easier for them to be brought back

home, could they provide intelligence?

Can I say, the death of Kadiza is a tragedy, not just for her family,

but for all of us. She could have been anybody's daughter, sister,

Denise. The reality is what has happened to her up there, I

certainly hope it stands as an example and prevents other people

from making the same mistake. Kadiza went out there, she was groomed, she

was sold a utopia of what Syria would be like.

A number of your guests in the studio have used this term,

grooming, this is the same as child sexual exploitation. She went under

a premise she was going to an amazing Islamic state. There is

nothing Islamic there. She went as a jihadi brides, the mother of the

next generation, it is sexual exploitation. It is a fair question,

should we be supporting these young people when they want to come back?

Kadiza wanted to come back to this country. From the reports from her

lawyer and her family... What is the value of her coming

back? What can she bring, any intelligence? What use will she be

back in a community here after saying she did not want to be here.

It is a strange question, what value has she is a human being?

These youngsters are being enticed. She wanted to come back because she

realised this is not what she had gone out for. She saw the murder of

someone who was trying to escape back life, someone being beaten to

death in the street. That was the only thing stopping her from coming

back. We do know of people who have gone out to Syria who have been

reintegrated into society using the multi-agency partnerships, the

support they are given. This needs to be done on a case-by-case basis.

If we know individuals have been involved with illegal activity, with

some of the murderous activity, it is a different issue. These young

girls have gone out there, being brainwashed into believing

something, who want to come back, there is nothing stopping them.

There is a wider question, what should we be doing to stop them

going out there in the first place? You have also on a case-by-case

basis. Next, can you see why sympathy would be offered to Kadiza?

Yes, I can. This is a bright young woman. It is not that she had run

away with her boyfriend of girlfriend.

She would have known what she was getting into if she is as bright. It

is very sad, of course I have sympathy. All the time there is this

Laura, and it would appear ISPs losing -- lure.

You honestly saying he would bring back who has fought for Islamic

State? We have a criminal system, if they

have served their sentences, why wouldn't we rehabilitate anyone who

has been punished for their crimes? You would have brought Jihadi John

home? Yes or no? Answer my question. With

murderers, sex criminals, put them in jail, after due process, if they

have served their time, would you punish them, kill them?

Of course I wouldn't. This is a domestic crime. I have

told you they would get life terms and go through the system.

Someone who committed barbaric murders, which you bring him back?

I don't want him back. It is not going to be business as usual for

them if they return. They are going to be detained. They will follow a

process in the criminal justice system. Do you want them living next

door to you? Nick is expressing the concern that many people would have,

but we have a justis system and most of democracy agrees with that. Owen.

I don't think people are suggesting that we send the Metropolitan Police

into Syria to sweep them up. Look, Harold Shipman killed 250 people, I

lived just down the road. We believe in the rule of law in this country

which hopefully distinguisheses us from these hate cults around the

world. The difference is, we are talking about young girls who've

been brainwashed. Very to say Nick, I was disappointed, as I have a huge

amount of respect for you, when you said you wouldn't shed any tears for

her. A 16-year-old girl who had been brainwashed and is now dead. If this

had been Mexico which have criminal gangs which behead people on camera,

acting similarly to Isis, would you say we wouldn't offer sympathy to

these people? We should bring her home and that should be the

deterrent. She should be able to give her story. This is a right to

reply. I offer condolences and I offer sympathy, but I have to be

candid, she was a bright girl and knew what she was getting into. The

process of deradicalisation, how effective could that be? There are a

number of methods we use for deradicalisation. I'm sure listeners

have aware of the Channel process for example, but there are grass

roots projects across the country which work with young people nod to

not deradicalise them but to stop them getting involved in anything

that could take them down this route. We have 130 civic society

projects currently running and they've interacted with over 25,000

individuals. These projects are very, very effective. We know of

individuals, of 150 people who've been stopped from going out to Syria

as a result of being involved with some of these projects that we run.

It's imperative that we work with these projects and we encourage our

young people to speak to us as well. I've spoken to a number of young

people who've said, people never talked to us about these issues.

That's the frightening thing. We need be open, having these

conversations with young people. We need to have grass roots projects

that tackle some of these misconceptions, particularly around

Islam and the ideology that's influencing these young people to

take this drastic step. You've been sending us your texts

and tweets on this. Let's hear some of your

reactions from Samanthi. The majority of people do agree with

Nick. They do think it shouldn't be possible for people to return, or at

least to return easily. But there are people who think some people

should be able to return on compassionate grounds, and people do

make mistakes. Robert says there has to be a way back home. It should

require the person to go through extensive security checks but there

had to be a way. Gordon says no it shouldn't. How do we know they have

had a change of heart? It is not a snap addition to join Isis, so once

you've done that coming back shouldn't be an option. Another says

Kadiza was a young person, such a waste. Syria is just five hours

away, Hewlett should be allowed to come back. Show compassion. Linda

says as soon as these people leave the country with the intention of

causing death to others, they should be put in prison for life. And this

one says people who go with the intent of causing death, they should

not be allowed to roam our streets. Thank you Samanthi. When people like

that come back here, people don't want them living next door. We can

work with the community and if they are finding an issue with it, to

reform it. Owen Jones, you are shaking your head It doesn't work.

It turns teachers and others into agents of the state. The reason it

is counterproductive, one teacher told me of a school of young Muslim

girls, they spoke of issues and this was just after Charlie Hebdo, and

they didn't bring it up because they felt they would be labelled as

extremists and put in prison. People have to be able to freely talk about

very uncomfortable opinions and views. My fear is that it makes

Muslims feel like the enemy within, a fifth column spied upon. We do

need a strategy. I don't think Prevent is it. I do agree that the

Prevent strategy of the Government has been counter productive. If

anything it has created isolation and more exclusion in the minds of

many young people. They feel they are spied on, looked upon badly. The

strategy should be inclusive. We need to come together and make this

a problem for all of us rather than a Muslim problem, you do with it, we

can't deal with it. We need to bring leaders together from all faiths,

bring the media together. We need to bring hatred of all natures

unacceptable. I think it is important to say that Prevent is

about all forms of extremism. About all forms of terrorism. The thing

that are being described are not the Prevent strategy. It is a

misunderstanding of a lot of people about what Prevent is. As a Muslim I

certainly wouldn't be working within Prevent if I felt it was targeting

Muslims. One of the most important things that I think we need to do is

move away from this language about Prevent targeting Muslims. As Muslim

communities we need to take ownership of Prevent and start to

understand what the strategy is about. The strategy is very much

about safeguarding. It is about protecting communities. It is not

about targeting any faith group or religion. Hifsa, thank you. Thank

you to all of my panellists as well. We could have gone on for at least

another hour. Thank you for your comments. Do keep them coming in.

Remembering Bishop Edward Daly, the priest who became

His ministry was marked by a total dedication of the people he served.

You all know it takes enormous courage to be a peacemaker.

Singer Tony Christie has had a string of hit records.

But there is one song that he has been defined by and I defy almost

We are going to test the crew here. Here I go, please don't leave me

hanging... We even got the boom-booms in! I'll

do it. Karaoke. I'm up for it. Comedian Peter Kaye took up

the anthem and then performed a memorable version with friends

which raised a fortune Hardeep Singh Kohli went to meet

Tony to talk about that song, Tony, you grew up in South Yorkshire

in a mining village. What sort of childhood did you have? Whenever my

Irish grandparents came over my dad used to stand me on the chair and he

would play the piano and I would sing the hits of the day. He paid me

sixpence. It was a good way to make a living. How did Amarillo come

about? My manager was in New York and Neil Sedaka, the songwriter,

went to his apartment and said I've got a singer in England called Tony

Christie, who's had three big histories and we want more material.

Neil played a few songs and then played Amarillo. My manager went...

That's it! He said, why didn't you play that first? He said, well, it's

not finished. He said, what do you mean it's not finished? And he said,

I've not got to words to the bit that goes # Sha la la lala la la la.

And that's the hit bit. # Sha la la lala la la la. You had this great

success in the early '70s and things levelled off a bit for you. I left

the UK in 1989, 1990, because nothing was happening here, so I

said to my wife, let's sell up. We were living in the Midlands by this

time. Let's sell up and go and live in Spain. My son wrack me and said,

they want to put out a Best Of album but they said they'll only do it if

you come back to the UK to promote it. We got a phone call from Peter

Kay's office to say Peter is using Amarillo on Cometic Relief and would

I like to be in it. Every less thanly city where I hang my hat... I

got the early train in, went in and did my bit on the treadmill, which I

thought was a rehearsal. They said, thank you. I said, seniors that it?

Yep, thank you. Show me the way to Amarillo, I've been weeping like a

willow, crying over Amarillo, and sweet Marie who waits for me. My

album was at number three, the middle of a tour, the Friday went it

went out on the television, by the Sunday the album had gone to number

one and the single, so after 15 years of big completely ignored by

my homeland I was suddenly number one in the charts with an album and

single. We talked about the good times, but things haven't been plain

sailing. There was an incident a few years ago which might have been life

changing. I was was in Essen in Germany on a big stadium with other

acts and I don't know who was on before me, but they left the big

speaker on stage. I ran on stage, hit this big monitor speaker and

went flying, landed, I don't know how I landed. I jumped up and

carried on as if nothing had happened. Weeks later I got painses

in my back and hip. I went for MRI scans and X-rays and he fractured

three disks in the bottom of my spine. How did your faith play a

part in that period of your life? What you call a lapsed Catholic and

I'm more into spirit him now. And that played a part in your healing

didn't it? Definitely. One day I was sitting, rocking and crying with

pain, the pain killers were not working. My wife said, ask your

angels to help you. We know people who are into angels and we believe

in angels. You either do or you don't. I sat there and said, angels,

please, please help me. Suddenly killers were not working. My wife

said, ask your angels to help you. We know people who are into angels

and we believe in angels. You either do or you don't. I sat there and

said, angels, please, please help me. Suddenly I went into a... I

didn't say anything, and my wife said you suddenly got up and I felt

something hit me in the back. I went back from an X-ray the next week and

they said, it's cured, it's gone back. That was it. My wife and I are

very much into angels. # Sha la la lala la la la

# Sha la la lala la la la Shall and Marie who waits for me. Do

you ever get tired of singing Amarillo? No, it's great. Every DJ I

ever meet, the first thing they say is if we are having a bad night and

nothing is happening, if we put Amarillo on, the floor is full. It's

one of those iconic songs. ALL: # Sha la la lala la la la

And Marie who waits for me. I apologise now because that song will

be in your head for the rest of the day.

It's rare that a religious leader would be described as a "walking

But both of those were used this week to describe Northern Ireland's

Bishop Edward Daly, who has died at the age of 82.

He lived a full life dominated by one defining image, which some

More than 1,000 people turned out for Bishop Daly's funeral on

Thursday at St Eugene's Cathedral in Derry, where he was praised as a

peacemaker. His ministry was marked by a total dedication to the people

that he served. His moral courage was evident in his passionate

struggle against violence and injustice from all quarters. Bishop

Daly will be forever remembered as the piste who awayed the bloodied

handkerchief to escort people carrying a dying teenager in 1972.

It is one of the enduring images of the Troubles in Northern Ireland. 13

people died that day after British troops opened fire on a civil rights

march. March. It became then as Bloody Sunday. 38 years later after

an exhaustive inquiry David Cameron described the soldiers' actions as

unjustified and unjustifiable, song that Father daily had no doubt about

at the time. I was him shot. He was a young boy, about 15.

REPORTER: He didn't have a weapon? No, he had nothing. He was just a

young boy about 5. He was running. I was running too. Father daily was

consecrated Bishop of Derry two years later and brought communities

together in Northern Ireland, condemning violence and helping the

peace process. So, Bishop Daly clearly made

an impact during his life. But how many religious leaders today

will be judged to have Do modern religious leaders

have any influence? Joining the panel now

is Vimalasara Mason-John, an author and chair

of the Vancouver Buddhist Centre. And a person who knew Bishop Daly

well, journalist Henry McDonald also Good morning. Henry, you interviewed

Bishop Daly many times. What type of a man was he? He was a man who was

one of the people. A great communicator. Before he was

appointed Bishop he was religious affairs correspondent for RTE in the

mid 1970s, so she was a journalist as well. He knew about the power of

imagery. We saw the iconic image in Derry, 1972. He knew the importance

of media and getting the message across. Across. His message was the

only way to some of the situation in Northern Ireland is through peaceful

politics. In a sense, he succeeded. We showed that moment of him waving

that bloodied handkerchief, and the realisation of what he was about as

a man. What else defied his career? Moral

consistency describes him. He was bitterly critical of state

injustices, the heavy handedness of the state security forces. Equally

of the IRA campaign, he did not allow IRA funerals in churches with

political stunts. He had a consistent line the only

way to solve the situation was by people coming together and violence

was wrong, immoral and futile and counter-productive. That is what

marks his life and work. And he was a great communicator with the

people. We talk about Bishop Edward Daly

with reverence. Many with fondness. Is there a place for a religious

leader to have the same influence? I believe religious leaders should

be peacemakers, it takes huge courage.

They should be healers of our communities, especially the wrist

prevalent in our modern world. Religious leaders should be unified

in our divisive world. They should play a role in being moderators.

Unfortunately it is not happening enough, because the pressure on them

is intense. Material pressure, expectations, 24-hour news does not

help. Religious leaders should be given

that autonomy, strength and courage to continue. I am an arm, I am

supposed to have that evidence, I wish I did.

When my accommodation say I is buy them for tomorrow, and thanked me

for my sermons. Religion plays a huge role,

religious leaders should be agents of that religion, true peacemakers.

They are not do enough because some do not even practice what they

preach. If we are consistent with our teachings, genuine and honest,

we would truly be respected as peacemakers.

Is there anyone you could identify today in a similar vein to Bishop

Daly? Most definitely the Dalai llama. If

you look at the trajectory of his life, in the 1950s, he becomes the

leader of Tibet and then exiled in 1959.

Nobody knows about Tibet. In 1987, he goes to the human rights

commission and gives his 5-point peace plan. It is there were I

believe he won the heart of the world.

He brought the situation of Tibet to the world, and stated at the core of

his plan was a Hindu word for the state of peace and nonviolence.

You are nodding? I would also use the Pope, very influential,

mobilising thousands of people to take environmental action. It is not

just about the popular names. We should look at grassroots where

there are so many leaders making a difference, challenging drug

addiction, in India helping over sanitation. They are playing a key

role, they are inspiring and guiding.

Our politicians having more of an influence, should they?

I believe elected politicians should take the lead when it comes to

political debate within the context of Parliament. As a secularist, I

don't believe clerics have the automatic right to sit in the House

of Lords, we are the only country in the world outside of Iran put that

to happen. As a believer with respect the

people, I look at Martin Luther King. And Caldera, who stood up

against injustice. Equally, socialism, I see myself as

a socialist, in Britain, religious leaders have a role in building the

left, Methodism. For me, I believe we should separate church and state,

that is good for religion and the state as well. Equally, religious

leaders should speak out not least about the injustices that define

society, and to support peace, because they are influential and

should use that for good. Is there room for a new religious

leader? In Dublin, the Archbishop has been

forthright. He was sent to clear up the mess caused by the clerical sex

abuse in church when institutions. He has built a lot of bridges with

victims's organisations. A good example of someone prepared to

criticise his own hierarchy for mishandling that all engulfing

scandal that shadowed the catholic church's authority.

In Belfast, the Unitarian minister Reverend Chris Hudson who is the

unofficial Pasteur to the gay community, a much marginalised

community. He holds a weekly service for the gay community in South

Belfast. There are small and big examples.

I don't think religious leaders are being courageous enough, they are

being drowned. Take for example every 20 seconds a child dies

because of lack of food. Where are the religious leaders saying enough

against poverty. In Syria where thousands are being killed. Those

being killed in Burma, Palestine, occupational wars. Religious leaders

need to come out and become like Jesus, Mohammed, Moses, and say

enough is enough, we want equality for all, freedom, rule of law, total

freedom of humanity. Many are, they are just not as

publicised. The religious leadership is involved

at the global strategic level. With the World Bank on discussions on

poverty reduction, religious leaders are at the table. And in Unicef.

Look at grassroots level. Every 20 seconds a child dies.

You are nodding, are they having the impact, to have influence?

The biggest impact religious leaders can have is to live their practice

that is the biggest impact, to radiate compassion, wisdom.

I do want to mention, we heard of Martin Luther King, I want to

mention Doctor Mbegka. He had one of the biggest impact on the world, one

of the largest ever conversions in one day to Buddhism. That was

because he realised all -- he needed a religion to emancipate the mind.

He had an impact economic league, and still has. We are addressing how

religious leaders can have an impact today, how does he work for you?

How does it work for me today? Engaged Buddhism. One of the things

I actually do is look at how the Buddhist teachings and mindfulness

teachings can be used to overcome addiction. We are living in a world

with a lot of hate. We are remembering Bishop Daly now.

It is little drops in the ocean making a big impact, just like time

and spots make a big fire. Different religious leaders are pouring into

tiny drops making a big impact into society.

Viewers have been getting in touch. Let's hear some of your

reactions from Samanthi. Most people highlighting the lack of

interest in religion. Helen says this, de Villiers leaders have

influence, only as far as they have integrity. And David says this.

But tests says this, religious leeches don't have a big influence

these days but could be great at bringing real attention to social

problems. Overall, no, but perhaps there is an

opportunity. Lots of you were nodding at various

points, religion is over in the UK? We are one of the least religious

people in the Western world, less than one out of seven attends a

religious service. Obviously religious leaders will have far less

sway. It is not like anyone is calling for a bar on religious

leaders speaking out, I would like far more people to speak out about

injustice. In America, you get religious leaders who have a lot to

say about gays and guns but not poverty and injustice. Everyone

should unite to take on the issues of injustice.

I wonder if the issues need to be big and substantial, in the same way

we saw Bishop Daly waving that handkerchief, it was a moment that

captured the hearts of people. Archbishop well be talking about

payday loans. Does it need to be surrounded by circumstance to create

a big, influential name? It is not about name but impact,

integrity. Honestly. Religion, religious leaders are too shy. They

feel they have been banished. I stood for a Parliamentary seat in

2010. Even though I am an arm, people asked. I said I'm not going

to impose religious values. But I have a role to play in this world --

and Imam. One of the most important thing is I believe people miss is

poverty is the biggest crime we see happening and religious leaders must

do something. It is wonderful religious leaders

come together in a world of interfaith to be one voice and take

action together. I want to see more women in religious leadership.

That will be on another week. Thanks you very much.

Now, let's move on to our final topic for today - money.

The Premier League started this weekend and a lot of the talk

in the build-up to the big kick-off was about one man.

Yes - he's back, along with that promo video.

Paul Pogba, who used to play for Manchester United, has returned

to Old Trafford for a world record fee of ?89 million.

With a salary of reportedly more than ?200,000 a week to go along

But has football finally gone over the top?

Samanthi's been out to get some views in the North East of England.

I am in Newcastle, a football loving city where they once broke a world

record by signing Alan Shearer ?15 million. A lot of money then but it

may seem small change today. Seaham Red Star on training, let us

see what they think of the millions being shelled out in league

football. It went crazy the last couple of

years in the Premiership. That is football, spend, spend,

spend. Sponsorship, it is revenue for the

club. Are they getting greedy?

They are entitled, the clubs are saying yes, why not?

All the best of them, it is a short career.

Does it affect your enjoyment as a spectator? How much is a footballer

worth being paid? ?200,000 a week? About 10%.

If you whisper to me how much you earn a year I will tell you how long

it will take you to earn what Paul Pogba earns 2,166 years. 100 years?

1,529 years. When you say it like that, money is ridiculous in

football. 2,000 years. I think the clubs are overpricing people out of

the game now. When I was a young lad, my father took me to the games

and it was quite reasonable. To go to a match day now it is ?50 for a

ticket. A couple of drinks and it is aed ?100 day. Massively overpriced.

Samanthi tackling players from Seaham Red Star.

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger says it's "completely crazy" to pay

out the sort of money Pogba has commanded.

But others believe it's the market rate and the transfer will attract

At the Games in Brazil, there's a different side of sport

on show as Britain's Olympians battle for gold.

So, we're asking, does football promote greed?

Joining the panel is Barry Horne, ex professional footballer

And former Chairman of the Professional

And re-joining the panel is Nick Ferrari.

Can you explain how somebody deserves

How is that justified? You can justify it in several ways really.

First of all it is the footballers that generate the huge income that

goes into the game. Secondly, because of the footballers the clubs

can afford it. Knowing is suffering because they're earning this money.

Capitalist society, merit oxy, the best players in the best clubs make

the best money. Clubs are businesses. They want to make money

and grow their brand. To do any of those things you need to best

players. But ?89 million? ?200,000. These are figures that people can't

comprehend. Paul Pogba is in demand across the world. That's the going

rate. Paul Pogba is not to blame for that. That's the going rate. As you

come down the tables, I'm a director at Wrexham Football Club. The

issues, the problems are all the same. It is just the numbers that

change. At the very top they are generating income. Nobody baulks if

a movie star is paid ?80 million to make a film or ?100 million to make

a film. It's the same thing. Ajmal? I would, I think ?30,000 a day for a

footballer. Why would any human being need that amount of money? To

do what, to eat, buy a house or car? You would run out of things to do

with it. There's a huge amount of poverty in the world.

Disproportionate distribution of wealth in the world. It sounds like

a mantra for me. I've been to Africa. I picked up a child the

other day in Sudan, where the child weighed less than my laptop Andrea

that child was five years old, dying of malnutrition. When we have abject

poverty in the world and grotesque earn, this causes resentment and

agreed. Wenger said this is crazy, this amount of money. I don't think

you can control the money. That's dangerous. Both contributors are

right. You can't blame Pogba. A team like Manchester United has so many

brands, so many other companies affiliated with them. They even have

a deal with an Asian motorbike company, and their own wines. He is

the hottest of the hot at the moment in football, Pogba, so they will

make their money back. It is horrific, the story you just told,

but how would Manchester United not buying Pogba make any difference to

that child this Sudan. I'm saying if we have a culture not of greed but

caring and sharing, a culture of not wanting all for myself but to

share... Do you blame football? I'm not blaming anybody. Not Pogba but

football. I'm saying football or any other has become the new religion of

the world. Football is the religion of the religionless masses of the

world. That's a worrying thing. Look at the religious rituals in

football. People like to come together, they have rituals, they

sing. This is a replacement for religion. For me as a religious

leader that's a problem, but that's not the discussion today.

Disproportionality cause as problem. Are you willing to share it? There

is disproportionality not just the football. There's disproportionate

wealth across society. If you want to focus on football, if you are

going to make it compulsory that so much money goes to charity or not to

football, you've got to do that across the world. Football so global

game, so you have to get it in Barcelona... Football is a lucrative

business but to me it is beautiful. We mustn't have that disconnect. It

is people coming from diverse backgrounds supporting each other

with common goals. There's a lot to learn from that. When we see

disproportionate figures, it takes away the fan base who pay enormous

prices, the kit, just for loyalty. It is a free market. People say

tickets are overpriced. A lot of the tickets are affordable. The grounds

are full. That tells you that it is not too expensive. Yes the top end

tickets at Chelsea and Arsenal. My club Everton just sold 300,000

tickets. That's record. Stoke City, record tickets. The grounds are

full. Your point about integration and being a cause for good doesn't

get mentioned. I don't want to lose that. It is so important. You are

talking about the exposure of football and footballers get, I

picked up a tabloid this morning, 25 pageness to Premier League. 10 on

the English Football League. Two on cricket. Two on racing and a quarter

on rugby league. That tells you how big football is. Your point about it

being the religion, yes, I'm with that. And with that comes inevitably

criticism, I feel. I think a lot of it is unjustified. Sit right there

are two prices if you are selling a player, the English price, inflated,

because foreign teams know there is so much money, and then a regular

price. If that's true, that's a worry. Yes, but it used to be Italy.

Not many English players went to Italy. Italy used to be the richest

league. Richard Scudamore, Sky, they have done an amazing job. So if I'm

selling a player, I know I can rip an English team off. Rip off or just

get a better deal. This conversation, rip-off, agreed,

disproportionality. I'm getting very worried. When we were introducing

this subject we spoke about the Olympics. Barry, I want to ask you

this, we've been passionate about the Olympics, as we should be, and

watching our great Team GB hopes getting gold and silverev day, they

are not during it for the money. That's what some people in the

public see footballers doing it for, as figures to aspire to, and why

should she appear to the money whennev got Olympic examples who

aren't doing it just for the money. Can we take two separate questions?

Yes. Another player has gone to Manchester United this summer.

Ibrahimovic. He doesn't need the money. He has more than enough

money. He is getting paid, fine. You can't blame him for that. He is

proving he is the best, just as the Olympians do. The fact that

footballers are able to generate ?5.1 billion of broadcasting revenue

means they get paid well. It is no, they are no less determined or

committed or no less determined to win, to be fit, to be the best they

can to win trophies. The Olympians, we are all inspired, all in awe of

them, but a lot of them get paid very handsomely. With new

sponsorship deals as well, and advertising deals.

Samanthi, tell us what our viewers are saying?

Some people are saying the spend isn't morally justifiable but that's

the nature of popular sport, and saying while there is an audience

willing to pay for ticket prices and TV subscriptions, the clubs will do

what they can to secure talent. David says the market is distorted

by TV money but it is nonsense to suggest that moral are in question

here. Alan says no, the spend is not morally justifiable but if people

are willing to pay inflated prices to watch them, the clubs will take

it from them. A text here says football clubs in the UK don't spend

enough on home-grown players. That's why we don't do well in Europe and

the World Cup. Gordon says football used to be a working class game, but

the average worker can't afford tickets for themselves and their

families because of the price of players.

Morality came out there. I think having more money doesn't guarantee

performance. As we've seen in the Iceland match. Barry? The hunger and

the thirst to win. Hunger and the first to win. Hunger and the thirst

the win equals in the world today a lot of greed and poverty. Our

children, are they aspiring to become footballers and famous or to

use their brain and become somebody? Maybe then this is the problem, the

image of football ers. Nick, you said these guys want to win. And

that message perhaps doesn't come across and is overshadowed by the

money. I thought I covered that by saying Ibrahimovic who is paid

?200,000 a week. He has gone there to prove he is the best player in

the world. To win trophies. He is 34. He is physically, as are all

footballers and athletes, poverty is not caused by football. I'm sorry.

I'm not seeing that. Thank you so much. It's been an enlightening

discussion. That's just about all

from us for today. Many thanks to all our guests

and to you for taking part. We've all been rejoicing in our

triumphs in Rio. Mo Farah winning gold, and Jessica

Ennis hill picking up silver this the heptathlon.

It's brought back magic memories for a group of volunteers

They've kept that London spirit alive - by singing.

And here is the Game Makers Choir with their version of Snow Patrol's

# You've been the only thing that's right

# I understand why you can't raise your voice to say