Episode 6 The Big Questions


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Episode 6

Nicky Campbell presents topical debate from Leicester Grammar School. Should the UK trade with Israel now settlements are recognised? Should taxes be raised to cover social care?


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Today on The Big Questions: Dealing with Israel.

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Today we're live from Leicester Grammar School.

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Welcome, everybody, to The Big Questions.

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On Tuesday, Mrs May held talks at Downing Street

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with her opposite number in Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu.

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Increasing trade and investment with Israel was high on the agenda.

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The day before, the Knesset, Israel's parliament,

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passed a bill legalising settlements on privately owned Palestinian

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land on the West Bank, in direct contradiction of a UN

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Mrs May was clear that Britain opposes settlement activity

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and believes the two-state solution is the best way to bring

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Should we trade with Israel now the settlements

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I've been doing debates on this issue for 30 years now. And it's

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never that quiet. It's very, very impassioned on both sides. We shall

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attempt to proceed in a civilised direction. From war on want, many

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say, are you serious? We had trade deals with Saudi Arabia, China,

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Russia, the United Arab Emirates, some of the worst human rights

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abusers on the planet. None of them are a democracy like Israel is, how

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can you possibly justify this? I think there's a major issue the UK,

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they should be putting UK rights and international law at the centre of

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all of its trade negotiations with all countries. Should we stop

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trading with all those countries? It is a question to be brought up. We

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can't talk about trade without talking about human rights and

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international law. It is important for the UK to take action right now,

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move beyond words and suspend its trade relations with Israel because

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of its systematic violations of international law. If we do that, at

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a time when we need friends, stop trading with international human

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rights abusers, we would go out of business. When you continue trading

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with human rights abusing regimes like Israel, you're basically

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incentivising human rights abuse. You are giving a green light to save

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violations of international law, doing things like building

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settlements, demolishing Palestinian homes is OK. We might say on the

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side, we don't like it when you do that, as Theresa May did, but

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incentivising them with trade and especially the arms trade, the UK

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Government has approved over ?100 million worth of arms exports to

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Israel in 2016 alone. That is used in violence against Palestinians. It

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is a double standard to say settlements on one hand but -- no

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settlements but giving alms to the country that is building them. You

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referred to Israel. Paul, good morning, a former tank commander

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with the IDF, a couple of things we need to ask it. And then we will

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hear from the audience, hands, enough already. Ryvka Referred to

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Israel as a human rights abuser, how would you respond? That needs to be

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qualified. By Freedom, Israel is recognised as the only free country

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in the Middle East. It has a very strong democracy, it has a Supreme

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Court. It is not subservient to the executive. They will decide whether

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it is legal or not. There is a huge social housing crisis amongst

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Palestinians and Israelis. These towns are expanding, they need to

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expand. It is a controversial issue. You can disagree. At the same time,

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if the UK disagreed with every country, every political decision,

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they would not be dealing with China, with India over Kashmir,

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Turkey over Northern Cyprus, and the opposite

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would be true. It's not like Spain would cease dealing with the UK over

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Gibraltar, or Argentina would cease dealing with the UK over the

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Falkland Islands. We need to put this into perspective, settlements

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are one issue. Since 1967, that needs to be dealt with in a much

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larger framework of a peace agreement with the Palestinians

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requiring it. They want to build a home in a state for themselves. More

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than they want to destroy and boycott Israel. When that priority

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changes, peace can be achieved. APPLAUSE

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Let's go to the audience. Right behind Paul. Good morning. Your

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microphone is coming! This gentleman here. We are in an age where Trump

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wants to build walls and impose travel bans and impose restrictions

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based on their religion and identity. Surely what we want to be

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doing is reaching out to countries. Reaching out to communities. Israel

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for example? And to engage and challenge, constructively and to say

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this is wrong but also, we recognise you are a democracy, we want to work

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with you. We want to build those trade links, those partnerships,

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improve relationships for the people in the world, rather than being

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isolationist. You keep saying it's a democracy.

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It's not a democracy, it's a democracy similar to South Africa in

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apartheid times. There are so many people which are disenfranchised,

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they don't have any say in the running of Israel and they keep

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saying it is a democracy. It has women's rights, gay rights, union.

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That is one angle. It is the biggest concentration camp in the world.

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It's almost a prison. Paul? I need to be very careful bringing the

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points back and forth so it is fair. Be careful with the terminology you

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use, that is harmful. What is recognised internationally as a

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democracy. As we said, we have all the minorities as heads of Supreme

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Court, doctors, heads of hospitals, heads of universities. Minorities

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from across the board, Arabs, Christians, etc. This is recognised

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as a beacon as what could be seen as a free country that all the rest of

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the countries can see that this is what we want to have, this is the

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beacon, this is your ultimate. Gentlemen, there is a point you

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made, the first speaker. Leon. I want to point to you, Professor good

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morning. How are you? Very well thank you. I am shocked that you

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have a juicy Palestinian question and the crisis in the middle East to

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a housing problem. You said it's a housing problem that exists for

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Israelis and Palestinians. You are expanding these towns because there

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is a housing crisis that needs to be addressed. It's the continued

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colonisation of Palestine. Nor demolishing houses. You are chasing

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and removing, let's call it out for what it is -- you are demolishing

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houses. It is ethnic cleansing going on in these areas that have gone on

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for decades. I will put that point to Tom. Go on, come back on it. It's

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really important to have a debate but we need to be so careful with

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our language. We want to have a civilised debate here. Using words

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like concentration camps and ethnic cleansing is really offensive.

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APPLAUSE To all people who have actually

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suffered. That extreme genocide and persecution. Please don't use

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language like concentration camps because it is not concentration

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camp. It is a fact, these people have been disenfranchised. With the

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building settlements, the Palestinian houses are being

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demolished. Let me put a point to you that Leon made. Trade means

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links, diplomacy, influence, it means you can make progress.

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Zimbabwe, we have sanctions on Zimbabwe. We have absolutely zero

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influence. We cannot help the people who are suffering egregious league

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at the hands of Robert Mugabe and his thugs. The only way we get to

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Zimbabwe is through the back channels of South Africa and that is

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difficult enough. Would you want to create a situation where you have no

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influence, no trading links with Israel? You said you have been

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covering this topic for 30 years and the number of settlers in the West

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Bank has increased by 100,000, now 700,000 people. It will reach 1

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million unless we do something to stop it. If people really are

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interested in peace, you need to look at the situation of the

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Palestinians, who didn't choose to be occupied. To have their land

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taken. To have another state created in our homeland. I speak as a

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Palestinian. We didn't choose that. This is about the rights of the

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Palestinian people. Paul talked about housing, building houses. It

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ludicrous. These houses are built for only one type of person. A

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Jewish Israeli. Not for Palestinians. If Israel were serious

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about solving the housing crisis, why doesn't it open up the

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settlements out to Palestinians? Even better, not build on someone

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else's land. APPLAUSE All?

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You've never had a state. We want to help you create a safe propriety of

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67 it was owned by the Jordanians. They did not allow you to own your

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own land. Prior to that the British and the Ottomans. This land is

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called disputed for that fact. Do Palestinians exist as a people, do

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you think? Do you recognise us as a people? Absolutely. You should have

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a stake in live alongside us. You should put down your arms. Why don't

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you put trash on the Israeli government to leave our land? Let me

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intervene right there. -- put pressure on. Tom, is this not the

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situation now with the settlements having been legitimised in the

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Knesset, does that not put a massive wall up to the possibility of a two

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state solution? Massively counter-productive. This is a

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proposed law and we will see if it gets to the Supreme Court because

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Israel has strong checks and balances on its democracy. It is

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concerning that we think the presence of Jewish people in the

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West Bank in some way negates their being able to have a Palestinian

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state. Why is it assumed this Palestinian state has to be free of

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Jewish people? Why can't they have a Jewish minority? Just like Israel

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has an Arab and Muslim minority? We can't criminalise an entire

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community because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice

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line. There are about half a million people there, they are not going

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anywhere. It's better that we learn for the two sites to be able to

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accept a minority within one another's countries. Ryvka? It is

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important for us to recognise that the settlements, like people have

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referred to, it's been a policy of the state of Israel for decades,

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now. The reason why settlements exist in the West Bank is not

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because they ended up on the wrong side of the Armistice line. It's a

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policy of expansion and colonisation as somebody has mentioned. It is

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against international law. That is undisputed. It is against UK policy.

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As a consumer, would you boycott products from Israel? Absolutely.

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How do you feel when you use Google, they have a major research and

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development centre in Israel? How do you feel? It's less about an

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individual consumer. You said you definitely would do that. If you had

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a list of choices would you radically transform your habits? The

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important thing is for the UK Government to take action in line

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with its own policy. The UK foreign policy recognise the settlements as

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illegal under international law. It's important for the UK to act on

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that policy. We talked a bit about engagement and you raise the

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question of whether the UK would have more influence through

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engagement. Viewers remember Margaret Thatcher's days in relation

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to South Africa. The policy was constructive engagement. In

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retrospect it is recognise that actually prolonged apartheid and it

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allowed apartheid to deepen. Constructive engagement as a policy

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was rubbished after apartheid fell. Finally, because of economic

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pressure like sanctions. It's important for us to recognise that

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as an important tool that the UK Government has. It is time to move

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beyond words and condemnation into action. APPLAUSE

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Paul? I like to bring something constructive

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into it. The blame game is not going to get us to be still. I want to see

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the Palestinian authority take more control over its own people and over

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the peace process. We are wanting the Palestinian state more than it

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wants to destroy and denigrate the Israeli state. There is goodwill

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around the world and in Israel to help you do that. But you must

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remember that with all the wars that came in that Israel has to defend

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itself. It has given back Gaza. Israeli has conceded. What about the

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gentleman's point that a proportion of our audience, I will put that to

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him, a proportion of our audience will be wondering, the point

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represented by that gentleman. Taking land from people, land that

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is not yours. How do you respond to that? Firstly, this is disputed

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territory with Palestinians and Jewish people living on it. Please

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allow me to speak. It isn't disputed territory. When the Israelis left

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Gaza, every inch of Gaza, the Palestinian land, gave it back and

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said create a state. We are legally greenhouses, businesses. What was

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created was a mini terrorist state would only the development of bombs

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and warfare. The problem is that if Israel does the same thing

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immediately and retracts from the West Bank, we will have the same

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extremist ideology coming out of there. We cannot trust and rely

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without a strong security presence. We cannot trust and rely on these

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states like Hamas to automatically become democratic and allow gays and

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Christians to flourish. It will not happen. Kamel, I will be with you,

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you will have the next voice on the front row and so will Ibrahim. Tom

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will be back. More audience comments. Leon Camier had a good

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save. The gentleman at the back? It is important to realise, I

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believe, after the United Kingdom has voted to leave the European

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Union, and other factors coming into the 21st-century, that Britain is no

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longer the global player in the world that it was in post-colonial

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period after 1945 at the end of the Second World War. What should we do?

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The diminishing power, we haven't got over responsibility to police

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the world in the same way and we haven't got the capability. What do

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we do about Israel? We shouldn't boycott them in any sense at all.

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In respect of trading with places like Dubai, Saudi Arabia, United

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Arab Emirates, even trading with Pakistan. Israel is democratic and

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free as the gentleman said. I take your point. Expressed well by

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yourself. Good morning. This is about trade. My concern is that the

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Brexit boat will lead to our leaders, Prime Minister Theresa May

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and others, only doing deals with countries that are abusing human

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rights behind their hands, whispering it instead of saying it

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forcefully, because we need friends. The foreign policy that Robin Cook

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wished for is not going to happen because we are in no position to

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criticise others. Is there such a thing as an ethical foreign policy?

:16:24.:16:29.

I think there should be. Professor, you wanted to come back? In the age

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of Trump, it seems that trade trumps human rights and that is something

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we should all oppose and oppose strongly. Paul talked about the

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Palestinians taking more control of their people and so on. Let me give

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you an example. Under the Oslo accord, an area called area C, the

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most fertile part of Palestine, apparently under Israeli security

:16:54.:16:57.

and administrative control, it was to be passed over. It isn't being

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passed over. A number of Israeli ministers say it should be annexed.

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They actually have no interest in a Palestinian state emerging. The

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Prime Minister was only advice yesterday, going to Washington next

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week, two words you should not use, you should not utter two Woods,

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Palestinian and state. So if there is no Palestinian state, I would

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very much like to hear what the solution is? There are almost an

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equal number of Palestinians and Jewish people in that area. What is

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the solution and has strategically important is a Israel to this

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country? It is very strategically important in terms of counterterror

:17:44.:17:46.

but that is by the bye and I think the issue here is the moral issue

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and the issue of human rights. We are being very selective in how we

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are talking about human rights. Israel are targeted for boycotts and

:17:56.:18:03.

they say they respect international law, but they are not calling for

:18:04.:18:07.

boycotts on other countries with similar issues. Many people in this

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audience are more angry about the building of Jewish houses in the

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West Bank than they are about the abuse of Palestinian rights by

:18:14.:18:17.

Palestinians. If your starting point is constantly on human rights,

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wouldn't you call out the Palestinian authorities for torture

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and harassment of Palestinians and journalists and detention without

:18:27.:18:29.

trial? If we have silence on all of this, the focus is exclusively on

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finding reasons to boycott and demonise the world's only Jewish

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state. We are talking about Palestinian rights and freedom. What

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the other side is talking about is simply sustaining the status quo.

:18:48.:18:51.

The status quo has led us to a situation where there is a lot of

:18:52.:18:54.

unhappiness and anger and abuse of the Palestinians by the Israeli

:18:55.:18:58.

state. We need to be free for there to be peace in Palestine. Ibrahim

:18:59.:19:04.

Mogra, from the Muslim Council of Britain, do you recognise Israel's

:19:05.:19:08.

right to exist? Within internationally recognised borders,

:19:09.:19:15.

yes. I think we have brought Israel into our embrace far more than I

:19:16.:19:21.

would have liked to see. They are participants in the European

:19:22.:19:24.

football competitions and the Eurovision Song Contest and we don't

:19:25.:19:28.

even share a border with them. In response to your point about

:19:29.:19:38.

isolating Israel, we have actually remained in at least cultural and

:19:39.:19:42.

political contact with them. The important thing here is that

:19:43.:19:45.

international law has got to be applied equally across the board. It

:19:46.:19:50.

is not about Israel, whether it is Saudi Arabia, Pakistan was

:19:51.:19:55.

mentioned, the Gulf states were mentioned, China, which ever state

:19:56.:20:01.

it is. As human beings, if we subscribe to international law, if

:20:02.:20:05.

we fail to apply the UN resolutions equally across the board, what are

:20:06.:20:10.

we showing to the world? That democracy is selective. That

:20:11.:20:15.

powerful nations will pick on the weaker nations. That self-interest

:20:16.:20:19.

and national interest will Trump all the other global interests. So the

:20:20.:20:28.

question is are we applying the same yardstick as a measure to different

:20:29.:20:31.

behaviours of government? We have gone into Iraq and Libya because

:20:32.:20:36.

their leaders were corrupt and dictatorial, as they were, but they

:20:37.:20:42.

flaunted UN security resolutions. How many resolutions has Israel

:20:43.:20:46.

overlooked over time? We have got to leave it there because we have other

:20:47.:20:50.

things to debate but your point came across loud and clear. Not that

:20:51.:20:54.

everybody watching will agree with it. It is a perilous line, this

:20:55.:20:59.

debate, always, but I think that was pretty calm. Everyone? Yes? OK,

:21:00.:21:12.

let's do the next one! If you have something to say about that debate,

:21:13.:21:16.

please go online and follow the link. We are live from Leicester

:21:17.:21:21.

Grammar School. Has the time come to raise taxes to cover social care and

:21:22.:21:27.

is monogamy bad for marriage? Get tweeting and emailing on those

:21:28.:21:29.

topics and sent as any other thoughts you have about the

:21:30.:21:30.

programme. This week, the National

:21:31.:21:34.

Health Service has been Hospitals have been

:21:35.:21:36.

failing to meet patient targets for waiting in A,

:21:37.:21:39.

waiting for cancer treatments, waiting on trolleys, and waiting

:21:40.:21:41.

for ambulances to arrive. A key factor has been the inability

:21:42.:21:45.

to discharge patients no longer in need of medical treatment,

:21:46.:21:56.

that awful phrase bed blockers, because of the lack of social

:21:57.:21:58.

care in the community. And while the number of people over

:21:59.:22:01.

65 has risen by more than 15%, budgets for adult social care

:22:02.:22:05.

run by local councils Now local councils, who need to win

:22:06.:22:08.

a local referendum to raise council taxes by more than 5%,

:22:09.:22:13.

are raising or introducing charges for burials, parking,

:22:14.:22:17.

planning applications, And the councils with the biggest

:22:18.:22:18.

social care problems tend to be Has the time come to raise taxes

:22:19.:22:23.

to cover social care? Dawn, social affairs journalist,

:22:24.:22:36.

this has been coming down the track for years. We knew it was coming

:22:37.:22:41.

down the track. It has been coming for ages. Because it doesn't suit

:22:42.:22:45.

the electoral cycle and it will cost boats, nobody has really done

:22:46.:22:48.

anything to counteract it and deal with it. What do we need to do? We

:22:49.:22:54.

need to invest very heavily. We also need to look at social care in the

:22:55.:22:58.

same way that we look at the NHS. Instead of everybody having a very

:22:59.:23:01.

localised and different response to social care, I think we should bring

:23:02.:23:06.

in a social care standards and say that everybody deserves the same

:23:07.:23:09.

social care, like we do with the NHS. If I go into an NHS hospital in

:23:10.:23:13.

London, I should get the same care as somebody in Liverpool, and

:23:14.:23:16.

everybody should get the same social care regardless of what they earn.

:23:17.:23:21.

How do we pay for it? I think we have got to raise taxes. By raising

:23:22.:23:25.

the tax free allowance, people who were relatively well off were given

:23:26.:23:34.

a little more money. But what we have seen is the poorest in society

:23:35.:23:36.

being massively hit by cuts at one of those cuts is the end of the

:23:37.:23:39.

council tax benefit. The very poorest in society now have got to

:23:40.:23:43.

pay council tax. Which taxes should we be putting up? I think we should

:23:44.:23:48.

put up the tax-free alliance. -- allowance. Council tax is

:23:49.:23:51.

regressive. People struggle to pay it. Councils bring in burial charges

:23:52.:23:57.

so people cannot afford to bury their children often. Councils spent

:23:58.:24:00.

days on end every week in court trying to get poor people into court

:24:01.:24:07.

with a summons for a ?60 council tax charge. I think council tax is the

:24:08.:24:11.

wrong way to do it. We need to look at national Insurance being raised

:24:12.:24:14.

or raising the tax-free allowance. We need to fund social care like we

:24:15.:24:20.

fund the NHS and we need to find the NHS more. We need an awful lot of

:24:21.:24:25.

money here, don't we? We do need a lot of money for social care but we

:24:26.:24:28.

do not need to raise taxes. If there is one way of making sure people

:24:29.:24:34.

will oppose a policy it is to do something that means raising taxes.

:24:35.:24:37.

The big question in our society today is how do we look after each

:24:38.:24:44.

other? And this is the question that social care is meant to answer and

:24:45.:24:49.

yet it is the most do value and, most do prioritised, underfunded of

:24:50.:24:54.

any of our domestic policies. Why is that? Why do we need to raise

:24:55.:25:00.

taxation? More taxes paid now than for the last 30 years. The point is

:25:01.:25:05.

that we need a different funding structure for social care if it is

:25:06.:25:09.

either going to be the preventative service that stops wasting money and

:25:10.:25:13.

damaging lives that it can be. We need to do that and we need to do it

:25:14.:25:17.

by looking to the NHS. We need to have a social care system that can

:25:18.:25:21.

be connected with the NHS because it is no longer needs and means tested.

:25:22.:25:29.

Instead it is funded out of general taxation. It is free at the point of

:25:30.:25:34.

delivery and it is available to everybody, as most ordinary people

:25:35.:25:36.

think until they try and get social care. Hello. Good morning, everyone.

:25:37.:25:47.

We have already paid for this structure called the National Health

:25:48.:25:52.

Service, whether you call it social care. We have paid for it once, from

:25:53.:25:57.

when we have worked all our lives. We have then paid for it again when

:25:58.:26:03.

we bailed out the bankers. But we haven't paid enough. I accept that.

:26:04.:26:09.

However we still need to do a little bit more but why is it always we?

:26:10.:26:14.

Why is it always the people who are the most vulnerable who have got to

:26:15.:26:18.

bail out the ones who don't need that money? We should have more

:26:19.:26:21.

money in the pot but where will it come from? So I agree with the

:26:22.:26:26.

gentleman here. We do need to look after each other a little bit better

:26:27.:26:30.

than we have in the past, however I am sick and tired, literally, of us,

:26:31.:26:37.

the vulnerable people, the sick, the elderly, the disabled, the children,

:26:38.:26:41.

always having to provide the solution and always having to

:26:42.:26:46.

provide the money every time to bail out social care because it is a

:26:47.:26:50.

social care system that is falling apart. We can't do it any more. We

:26:51.:26:55.

have had enough. No more. No more what? No more bailing out anybody

:26:56.:27:01.

else any more. There has got to be another way? Why do we think having

:27:02.:27:05.

decent social care will cost more? Why would it cost more to prevent

:27:06.:27:21.

elderly people needing more intervention? It is denied because

:27:22.:27:24.

the budget have dropped drastically. I was at Manchester council the

:27:25.:27:28.

other day and the budget has been cut by 40% which has a knock-on

:27:29.:27:32.

effect on the social care budget. Councils have been tasked with this

:27:33.:27:35.

and they are trying their best to provide social care to everybody who

:27:36.:27:39.

needs it, but actually in my borough, Lambert, 70% of people

:27:40.:27:43.

requesting social care are denied it. Social carers deserve to be well

:27:44.:27:51.

paid. It is shocking the amount that they get given what they do and the

:27:52.:27:56.

commitment with which they do it. But economists will tell you that

:27:57.:27:59.

raising the minimum wage made social care far more expensive. But did it

:28:00.:28:05.

really? Why don't we think of this as we should? People say that social

:28:06.:28:08.

care is not like rocket science and I say it is much more complicated!

:28:09.:28:13.

Looking after people properly with complex needs, looking after all the

:28:14.:28:18.

groups mentioned behind me, and if we do it properly, not only is it

:28:19.:28:22.

symbolic of a decent and respectable society, but why should it cost

:28:23.:28:26.

more? Nobody had even try to find out if it costs more. I am on your

:28:27.:28:35.

team, here to argue that we should not be raising taxes, but one area

:28:36.:28:38.

of agreement we can find is that local councils have an unfair amount

:28:39.:28:41.

of pressure put on them to cut from social care. When we see things like

:28:42.:28:43.

the triple-lock being protected for electoral reasons, it is very hard

:28:44.:28:47.

to see how that 6 million per year is going towards protecting the

:28:48.:28:50.

triple-lock when social care is attacked. Pensioners vote

:28:51.:28:54.

disproportionately, of course. Certainly. But as you pointed out,

:28:55.:28:59.

the UK is facing its heaviest tax burden of 30 years and the state is

:29:00.:29:02.

taking 30% of British national income every year, and it is

:29:03.:29:06.

spending roughly 45% because of the deficit. Sorry to be tedious, I

:29:07.:29:11.

should make that apology more often! How do we pay for it? There are some

:29:12.:29:16.

practical things we can do. We need to stop protecting the vote blogs

:29:17.:29:20.

and put the billions towards things like the triple-lock into more

:29:21.:29:23.

impressive areas like social care. We need to do is roll more power to

:29:24.:29:28.

local councils. -- we need to devolve more power to local

:29:29.:29:32.

councils. The triple-lock is on pensions, by the way. And business

:29:33.:29:37.

rates. But we can do more. Or sales tax for local councils and I would

:29:38.:29:42.

devolve corporation tax to local councils. Get the money into the

:29:43.:29:46.

local councils so that we can care for our neighbours, the people next

:29:47.:29:49.

to us, and do it properly, but raising taxes right now is not an

:29:50.:29:54.

option. But a regressive tax hits the poor hardest. I would stay away

:29:55.:29:59.

from VAT personally and I would look more at business rates. Thank you. I

:30:00.:30:04.

know you want to come in, but I just want to hear from the audience first

:30:05.:30:08.

of all. You have had your hand up for some time.

:30:09.:30:12.

I disagree we should evolve more power to local councils, that is why

:30:13.:30:17.

we have patchy provision all over the UK right now. Currently, if you

:30:18.:30:22.

have over ?23,000 worth of assets, you are funding all your social care

:30:23.:30:27.

yourself. Because you have to. That's 40% of people. 30% of people

:30:28.:30:31.

are not getting any care whatsoever. What's happening to them? People are

:30:32.:30:35.

saying they don't want taxes raised but I don't see what other option we

:30:36.:30:41.

have. Surrey has a far higher proportion of self funders. They are

:30:42.:30:48.

very affluent. Right behind you. Me? Your time has come. How do we pay

:30:49.:30:51.

for this? I think somebody already said we

:30:52.:31:00.

already paid for it. Do you know, I'm sick and tired of hearing every

:31:01.:31:06.

day in the newspapers, TV about people getting old. LAUGHTER

:31:07.:31:14.

Tell me about it! It's either you die Young or you get old. We are

:31:15.:31:19.

getting older, more of us. Knocking on these elderly people. Ageing

:31:20.:31:29.

community, ageing this. Yeah. Their relatives fought in two world wars

:31:30.:31:34.

to build this country. Now that they need help from this country, they

:31:35.:31:38.

are being put on the back burner. They are being put in cold

:31:39.:31:43.

corridors, four hours and hours. Heartbreaking, isn't it? They are in

:31:44.:31:49.

pain, waiting to be seen. What's going on? What about the people of

:31:50.:31:55.

this country? I'm going to put that to Cristina. This is their country,

:31:56.:32:00.

they helped to build it, they should get number one care. APPLAUSE

:32:01.:32:05.

Let me put this to Cristina. People in this country never -- people who

:32:06.:32:12.

came into this country never put a penny into this country. Their

:32:13.:32:19.

relatives fought hard, husbands, sons, uncles, fought in the war,

:32:20.:32:23.

some never came back. People just come in through the gate getting

:32:24.:32:27.

everything and they are being penalised for being old? This is a

:32:28.:32:32.

disgrace on Britain. Put the Great back into Great Britain and Purdue

:32:33.:32:36.

are people first. Well done to Trump. Well done to Trump America

:32:37.:32:42.

and its people first. This contribution has taken an

:32:43.:32:49.

interesting turn! Can I... Can I please... It's a disgrace! It's a

:32:50.:32:56.

disgrace! That was impassioned. I'm ashamed of everybody. Give her a

:32:57.:33:00.

round of applause. Lots of points. I want to pick you up on one if I may.

:33:01.:33:06.

We need to look at ourselves, Cristina? Absolutely. It's what our

:33:07.:33:11.

cultural values. Those "Bed blockers" are people whom the NHS

:33:12.:33:15.

cannot bring back home because there is no one home, there is no one

:33:16.:33:19.

there for them. There's no child who they've raised and loved. There's no

:33:20.:33:25.

sibling. There's no neighbour. That's the problem. What we are

:33:26.:33:28.

looking at here is social care. We shouldn't think about it just in

:33:29.:33:33.

terms of is its local taxes, is it the central government that should

:33:34.:33:39.

help us? It's us. We owe our older generation the same that we owe our

:33:40.:33:43.

younger generation. Which is care. Absolute devotion dedication and

:33:44.:33:49.

that old-fashioned world, self-sacrifice. You realise what

:33:50.:33:53.

you're saying? People in their 70s, as the minister fails to appreciate

:33:54.:33:57.

recently, people in the late 60s and 70s looking after people in their

:33:58.:34:03.

late and 90s. Known. We are, actually. We're talking as if we

:34:04.:34:08.

don't live in a world where the work - life balance isn't bananas and

:34:09.:34:10.

women are no longer sitting at home working, sometimes working two jobs

:34:11.:34:15.

families. Like mine are spread all over the UK because they can't live

:34:16.:34:19.

in the South -- families like mine. One last thing, the real wonder of

:34:20.:34:23.

the original NHS was that it was part a new welfare state. It was

:34:24.:34:28.

built on changing the distribution of taxation. We've gone back in

:34:29.:34:34.

exactly the opposite direction. If you pay PAYE you pay a large amount

:34:35.:34:38.

of tax, large corporation, offshore person, someone who knows lots of

:34:39.:34:41.

fiddles and the means to avoidance and evasion are legion. And having

:34:42.:34:45.

introduced by government of the government. We are wasting, it's

:34:46.:34:52.

estimated, 200- ?300 billion on private finance initiatives. This is

:34:53.:34:55.

destroying us as communities. Playing on the never-never.

:34:56.:34:59.

Cristina, you didn't finish your point. Can I speak? Please finish

:35:00.:35:06.

your point. I don't think it's about money. Money needs someone to make

:35:07.:35:09.

priorities. It's not just about money. It's about what you value. I

:35:10.:35:13.

fear what we are saying to one another is that we only value what

:35:14.:35:17.

we make out of society, rather than what we can bring to society. Our

:35:18.:35:20.

government might feel like that, I certainly don't and I bet nobody in

:35:21.:35:25.

this room feels like that. When you go to a hospital ward and you see

:35:26.:35:31.

rows and rows of elderly people all by themselves and then you ask, do

:35:32.:35:35.

you have any children? They say, yes, but they haven't come to visit.

:35:36.:35:41.

Do you have any siblings? Yes, but they don't visit. I could give you

:35:42.:35:45.

the exact opposite picture. I would base my picture on research, not

:35:46.:35:49.

going round one place. Which taxes would you raise? First of all, an

:35:50.:35:55.

important point which hasn't been made yet is that society really

:35:56.:36:00.

needs to come to terms with the changing demography. The number of

:36:01.:36:03.

older people in society is growing fast. To put some figures on it,

:36:04.:36:07.

since 1980, the number of people above the age of 90 has tripled. In

:36:08.:36:13.

the next 20 years, the number of -- number of people over 80 will more

:36:14.:36:18.

than double. This will cause a major impact to both the health services

:36:19.:36:22.

and social services. With increasing in age, we will get more frail

:36:23.:36:28.

people. What's the solution? The solution is that there has been

:36:29.:36:32.

identified a care gap in terms of funding.

:36:33.:36:35.

Either the funding has to be diverted from other areas. Other

:36:36.:36:41.

areas of spending are equally important. Education, defence,

:36:42.:36:45.

policing. Where do we get it from? Which areas do we take from? If the

:36:46.:36:50.

politicians decide and then informed public needs to decide as well. If

:36:51.:36:55.

that gap cannot be closed by diverting other funds, then the only

:36:56.:37:01.

way is to raise some taxes. Which other funds can use it, as a man who

:37:02.:37:07.

knows this area and this stuff and understand the economy? Where would

:37:08.:37:10.

you identify the best place to actually take some money from?

:37:11.:37:17.

That's... Up for debate for politicians. At health care

:37:18.:37:21.

professionals, I'm not a health economist but what we can do is

:37:22.:37:25.

point out the deficiencies and what happened at the ground level. When

:37:26.:37:29.

the social care budget is reduced. I've been working in the NHS now for

:37:30.:37:35.

over 31 years. I've never seen it so bad. The amount of pressure on staff

:37:36.:37:42.

at the front door is enormous. People are under enormous pressure.

:37:43.:37:47.

And things can only get worse. Ibrahim, are you seeing... We know

:37:48.:37:51.

the traditional prevalent attitude in cultures... Generation upon

:37:52.:37:57.

generation living together, looking after each other, enjoying the

:37:58.:38:03.

wisdom of the elder generation. It's the wonderful quid pro quo of love,

:38:04.:38:08.

isn't it? Yes. Are you seeing something happening in Muslim

:38:09.:38:12.

communities where people are being put in homes? Are you seeing that

:38:13.:38:16.

happening? It's beginning to happen. It's a very sad development. As a

:38:17.:38:24.

segment of British society, nevertheless, we are still...

:38:25.:38:27.

Impacted upon, like everybody else. Despite our religious teachings.

:38:28.:38:32.

It just worries me if the establishing of Muslim care homes

:38:33.:38:39.

becomes... The norm. And we see more and more of that.

:38:40.:38:44.

Muhammad, peace be on him, said he who does not show kindness to young

:38:45.:38:49.

one that does not recognise the dignity and honour of elders is not

:38:50.:38:53.

one of us. We are not part of the human communities. We have two

:38:54.:39:00.

revisit how we set up our homes and families. Within my own extended

:39:01.:39:05.

family, there was a time when we had four generations living in one home.

:39:06.:39:11.

Younger couples are now husband and wife, both working, having grandma

:39:12.:39:15.

and grandad at home to look after the little ones to raise them.

:39:16.:39:21.

Incredibly enriching. To pass on the culture. It's not possible for

:39:22.:39:26.

everyone in a world which, Cristina, that's an excellent point and we've

:39:27.:39:28.

heard it before and we hear that again and again. That's not the real

:39:29.:39:33.

world for 70 people, is it? We have been talking about houses where you

:39:34.:39:37.

have one person living in a huge house all by herself or all by

:39:38.:39:43.

himself. And what better way of trying to, you know, re-stoke a

:39:44.:39:49.

social capital than to open the house and have a young family come

:39:50.:39:54.

in, to live in? Possibly a refugee to come and live in? Have you done

:39:55.:40:02.

that? No. It's very funny. A friend of mine has just done this. Come on!

:40:03.:40:08.

The real world! Hold on, the real world! We are talking about a

:40:09.:40:13.

housing crisis. Why? Why is a housing crisis? Because all we care

:40:14.:40:17.

about with housing is that it costs a lot! Housing crisis is another

:40:18.:40:21.

debate. All of these crises are coming at us because we were

:40:22.:40:24.

admitted to the elephant in the room. Last word. That the NHS is

:40:25.:40:29.

fundamentally in crisis because no one will consider reform. We haven't

:40:30.:40:32.

built enough homes. That is the option of health care all houses for

:40:33.:40:35.

the British people. That is the elephant in the the room that we

:40:36.:40:39.

need to talk about. Thank you for your contributions.

:40:40.:40:40.

You can join in all this morning's debates by logging

:40:41.:40:43.

on to bbc.co.uk/thebigquestions and following the link

:40:44.:40:44.

And you can tweet using the hashtag bbctbq.

:40:45.:40:48.

Tell us what you think about our last big question too.

:40:49.:40:50.

And if you'd like to apply to be in the audience at a future show you

:40:51.:40:56.

We're in Edinburgh next week, Birmingham on February 26th,

:40:57.:41:00.

and Newcastle-upon-Tyne the week after that.

:41:01.:41:07.

It's World Marriage Day today, honouring the partnership of husband

:41:08.:41:09.

and wife and their faithfulness to each other as the

:41:10.:41:12.

But across the globe, monogamy is not the most popular option.

:41:13.:41:19.

Six times as many societies, over 1,000, allow men

:41:20.:41:21.

Although only four allow women to have more than one husband.

:41:22.:41:29.

You run Polygam.com and second wife .com. He would like another wife?

:41:30.:41:50.

Yeah, why not? Thank you for joining us this week! LAUGHTER

:41:51.:41:54.

We have a bit more time than that. Why do you want another wife? It's

:41:55.:41:58.

my nature, the honourable guest over there said he is gay and he fought

:41:59.:42:01.

for his rights. In the similar manner, I believe I was born

:42:02.:42:05.

polygamists. It's my nature that I would like to have a larger family,

:42:06.:42:10.

more children, more wives. What does your current number one why think

:42:11.:42:14.

about this? She's a bit hesitant in all honesty. LAUGHTER

:42:15.:42:21.

Is she? Is she? That's a lot to do with the perception of everybody

:42:22.:42:23.

else, what they would think about her. When I sat down to get married

:42:24.:42:26.

and we discussed this and I put forward my thoughts. From a

:42:27.:42:28.

religious point of view it's absolutely acceptable. That's how we

:42:29.:42:33.

regulate our relationship. What about the inevitable jealousy? It

:42:34.:42:39.

does exist, it absolutely exists. How do I put this? LAUGHTER

:42:40.:42:48.

It's my turn? I don't mean like it's my turn to ask a question...

:42:49.:42:52.

LAUGHTER I mean, "It's my turn to night".

:42:53.:42:58.

With every relationship, relates the relationship is regulated with

:42:59.:43:02.

Scripture. -- this relationship is regulated. You must abide it

:43:03.:43:06.

unequally with all of your spouses. Timetable, fridge magnet? -- you

:43:07.:43:10.

must divide all of your time equally. In the US I see a lot of

:43:11.:43:13.

these relationships within the Christian sects, they are adopting

:43:14.:43:18.

that role, that model. All in the same house? No, not necessarily. But

:43:19.:43:25.

possibly? Possibly if everybody can sense. The house has to be quite big

:43:26.:43:34.

to accommodate them. It's difficult. What it comes down to... If someone

:43:35.:43:39.

were to be excluded, would it be, apologies for this, would it be

:43:40.:43:45.

acceptable for everybody to... Sleep in the same... No. Moral standards.

:43:46.:43:52.

Moral standards? You're talking about moral standards? LAUGHTER

:43:53.:43:58.

Yes, Cristina talked about raising taxes in the last debate, we raise

:43:59.:44:01.

our moral standards. It would never even come across for me to throw my

:44:02.:44:07.

parents into a home. I would chuck my parents out before that. Coming

:44:08.:44:12.

back to here, what polygyny and I stand for is bigger, stronger

:44:13.:44:15.

families. So we don't come to a situation where people don't have a

:44:16.:44:18.

support structure. We don't segregate ourselves into

:44:19.:44:22.

individuals. We stay as communities. I will be back with you. Harry

:44:23.:44:27.

Benson, research director at the marriage foundation. Whatever works

:44:28.:44:32.

for you? There are comedic possibilities there. I had a laugh.

:44:33.:44:37.

The oldest jokes known to humanity there in. But if it works to fore U

:44:38.:44:42.

and around the world, what's the problem? What people choose to do in

:44:43.:44:45.

private is their own business but don't bring other people into it and

:44:46.:44:47.

certainly don't bring children into it. APPLAUSE

:44:48.:44:53.

It's blindingly obvious, really. Monogamy is marriage. . One

:44:54.:45:00.

relationship, monogamy. Marriage is terrific for monogamy because it

:45:01.:45:03.

reconciles our two competing demands of human nature where we have the

:45:04.:45:09.

need for reliable love on the one hand. But we also have our

:45:10.:45:14.

fundamentally selfish nature on the other hand.

:45:15.:45:19.

When we commit to a marriage, we are offering reliable love to someone

:45:20.:45:25.

else and they offer it to us, and we get our needs are met and

:45:26.:45:28.

relationships basically work. They do because we have set out a clear

:45:29.:45:32.

plan for our future together. That is the whole deal of marriage. When

:45:33.:45:37.

you set out a plan for your future together, you get all the good

:45:38.:45:40.

things that make the relationship work coming into play. We care for

:45:41.:45:45.

one another. This might cut divorce rates. Divorce

:45:46.:46:00.

rates have falling for 25 years. Marriage is working very well. That

:46:01.:46:04.

is because people are not getting married. That is nonsense. The

:46:05.:46:06.

divorce rate is the proportion of people who get married. Look at how

:46:07.:46:08.

marriage actually works. If you are married before you have your baby,

:46:09.:46:11.

eight out of ten parents will still be together by the time their

:46:12.:46:13.

children are sitting the GCSEs. Only three out of ten will still be

:46:14.:46:16.

together if they are not married before they have a baby. That is the

:46:17.:46:19.

difference between the two and it is true across the social spectrum and

:46:20.:46:23.

across the developed world. This is a universal human issue. Committed

:46:24.:46:31.

people get married. It is very difficult to extricate the truth

:46:32.:46:34.

from statistics like that. You know that. You want to come back on that?

:46:35.:46:40.

You mentioned that monogamy is basically two people but a few years

:46:41.:46:46.

ago we didn't even recognise that gentleman's union. Society will

:46:47.:46:49.

catch up with this and I am here to voice that there are groups of

:46:50.:46:53.

people who want to live this way and as liberal people we have no right

:46:54.:46:57.

to impose our thought onto them. Would it be a problem for you if you

:46:58.:47:04.

had your four wives and some of them had a same-sex relationship with

:47:05.:47:08.

each other. Would that improve cohesion within the household? That

:47:09.:47:13.

wouldn't happen within my household. No, it wouldn't. I've got you. Carry

:47:14.:47:22.

on. I am a professional researcher. I maybe wrong about this. I have yet

:47:23.:47:27.

to see a piece of research that looks at the triangular relationship

:47:28.:47:30.

between three adults that gives the same kind of reliability of love

:47:31.:47:35.

that you get between two. Doesn't. You don't get the stability for

:47:36.:47:39.

children. Do what you like but don't bring children into it. Children are

:47:40.:47:47.

the biggest benefactors of such a relationship. Recent research

:47:48.:47:51.

conducted by the Canadian government where everybody was voicing that

:47:52.:47:55.

such relationships are harmful found the contrary. It benefits children

:47:56.:48:00.

more. The Canadian government, not me. Right, OK. Go on. I am 18, so I

:48:01.:48:09.

don't have enough experience to comment on marriage but you have got

:48:10.:48:14.

to start from somewhere! Thank you! I would like to ask the gentleman

:48:15.:48:20.

over there. You want a second wife. Are you willing to accept it if your

:48:21.:48:25.

wife has a second husband? Let's be honest, no. Are you aware of the

:48:26.:48:33.

phrase what is good for the goose is good for the gander? Is that truly

:48:34.:48:39.

polygamy or you just satisfying your own needs? Let's not forget this is

:48:40.:48:49.

an open discussion, that Britain is a very democratic country. If we

:48:50.:48:55.

allow polygamy in this country, what impact would that have on countries

:48:56.:49:02.

who have worse human records? Would women get more abused in these

:49:03.:49:06.

countries because they can point at Britain and say, look, the model of

:49:07.:49:11.

democracy, they allow a man to have two wives but they don't allow women

:49:12.:49:18.

to have two husbands? What a great audience we have got to date! Wait a

:49:19.:49:24.

minute, everyone. Calm down. It is getting a little bit too shouted.

:49:25.:49:30.

Your house will be like that in a few years! I know what you are going

:49:31.:49:40.

to state, Cristina. Is this a good thing? I don't think it is a good

:49:41.:49:44.

thing for women to think it takes four women to satisfy one man and a

:49:45.:49:47.

family to be built around one man saying his needs need to be

:49:48.:49:51.

satisfied. That is not what families are about and it is not what

:49:52.:49:55.

marriage is about and it is not the kind of role modelling I would like

:49:56.:49:58.

children to see. I think the role modelling that we want is to have a

:49:59.:50:05.

joint partnership, where there is a tremendous amount of self-sacrifice

:50:06.:50:08.

on both sides. A tremendous amount of duty and response ability on both

:50:09.:50:12.

sides. And none of this self gratification, lording it over four

:50:13.:50:18.

women. I mean, come on! At no point have I said that this is for

:50:19.:50:22.

everybody. It is for certain individuals who are capable of doing

:50:23.:50:27.

this. What makes you capable of doing this? It is my nature. What

:50:28.:50:31.

does that mean? I can't explain it to you. That is how I was born. What

:50:32.:50:39.

do you mean? Are you insatiable? I am just going to go back to my

:50:40.:50:44.

websites. We have websites, like polygamy .com, open to everybody,

:50:45.:50:49.

and we have 50% women signing up and not a single one was forced into

:50:50.:50:56.

signing up. On second wife .com, we launched it for just Muslims, and it

:50:57.:51:01.

is 25% women signing on. These women are often of the highest calibre,

:51:02.:51:05.

well educated, in very high positions. And for whatever reason,

:51:06.:51:10.

they signed up themselves. I like women of the highest calibre! No, we

:51:11.:51:15.

judge. I will be honest, we do. These are not battered women. This

:51:16.:51:24.

is the logically justified. -- do you think this is theologically

:51:25.:51:32.

justified? In what sense? From God? For me, the Koran and the Bible. Of

:51:33.:51:41.

the 24 mentioned profits, 33% of them had multiple wives. If it was

:51:42.:51:46.

acceptable in the eyes of God for his profits, the best of his

:51:47.:51:49.

creation, the best of the husbands, the best of everything, to have

:51:50.:51:57.

it... Wait a minute! You would accept somebody having an affair and

:51:58.:52:04.

if you don't bat an eyelid? Who here thinks it is theologically

:52:05.:52:11.

justifiable in the audience? Ibrahim , do you know people in this

:52:12.:52:16.

situation? Yes, I know a handful of people. Only one of them is still

:52:17.:52:20.

happily married to his two wives. The rest have all had a really hard

:52:21.:52:26.

time. What kind of hard time? There are not so many that I know, but in

:52:27.:52:31.

the cases that I know, the first wife has left the husband. The

:52:32.:52:34.

husband has been pressurised into leaving his second wife. We need to

:52:35.:52:44.

explore the allowances within Sharia that chapter four verse three

:52:45.:52:48.

mentions. With regard to the care of orphans, if you are fearful about

:52:49.:52:52.

the welfare and the well-being of them, when inheritance could be

:52:53.:52:56.

usurped by others, you marry their mother so that those orphans now

:52:57.:53:01.

have a father figure who can safeguard their interests. If you

:53:02.:53:06.

take a second, third and a fourth, be very mindful that you must treat

:53:07.:53:11.

them fairly. That is open to interpretation. Some Muslim men

:53:12.:53:24.

conveniently leave it there, but the verse carries on, it says if you

:53:25.:53:28.

cannot treat them fairly and equally then marry only one. If you look at

:53:29.:53:32.

Muhammad, peace be on him, he had many wives, but he remained married

:53:33.:53:39.

to just one woman up until the age of 50. After that, when he became in

:53:40.:53:51.

a position to be a prophet, statesman, and a political leader,

:53:52.:53:55.

and at the same time a widower, he set an example and chose to marry

:53:56.:53:59.

divorcees because they were not worthy of marriage in that culture.

:54:00.:54:04.

He married widows because they were not regarded as worthy of marrying.

:54:05.:54:11.

We have got to take this into context and interpreted properly. I

:54:12.:54:14.

hear what you are saying. Some thoughts from the audience and I

:54:15.:54:18.

have one about fairness. And the possibility of being fair. At the

:54:19.:54:22.

back? I think the gentleman over there is selfish by nature. Which

:54:23.:54:29.

one? He just wants to satisfy his own needs and he hasn't thought

:54:30.:54:32.

whether his wife wants to have another wife, whether his kids want

:54:33.:54:36.

another dad, because that is what it sounds like it is leading to. If it

:54:37.:54:39.

is in your nature to have more than one thing, just have it. That is

:54:40.:54:46.

complete rubbish. Me personally, the polygamy thing is not for me, but

:54:47.:54:53.

what I find in society is that people are more fond of deception

:54:54.:54:57.

than polygamy. There are lots of women out there who know their man

:54:58.:55:01.

has got another wife, maybe another woman, not married, but honesty. At

:55:02.:55:07.

the end of the day I might not agree with what you are saying but I

:55:08.:55:11.

respect you because you are at least putting it out there and you can say

:55:12.:55:18.

what you want. Transparency. How would you be sure that it is

:55:19.:55:23.

absolutely fair? A man can try his absolute best but he will never be

:55:24.:55:27.

at the pinnacle of fairness that he must still try. Would you prefer one

:55:28.:55:36.

of your wives to the others? Even if there is a preference, you keep that

:55:37.:55:41.

within yourself. You don't make it come out. You don't favour one over

:55:42.:55:46.

the other. If you buy one house, you buy the other house of equal

:55:47.:55:50.

stature. If you buy one a car, it doesn't have to be the exact same,

:55:51.:55:54.

but you buy something to her liking. He has got it worked out! What is

:55:55.:56:02.

the other option? You are in the first debate but we will let you

:56:03.:56:11.

back. He says it is his nature, I could come across somebody who is a

:56:12.:56:16.

paedophile by nature. Somebody else, it might be in their nature to sleep

:56:17.:56:21.

with somebody every day. Just because it is in your nature, in

:56:22.:56:26.

civilised society we have got to control that. Quick point? I made

:56:27.:56:35.

some promises to my wife when I first got married and she made them

:56:36.:56:39.

to me. It is about commitment and self-control. The idea of somebody

:56:40.:56:43.

else entering our marriage, it would be a disaster. It is terrible, this

:56:44.:56:47.

whole idea of having somebody else in a marriage. It is about love,

:56:48.:56:52.

expression for each other, compromise, being together. But what

:56:53.:56:57.

if your wife is OK with it? I know that mine would not be! Then it

:56:58.:57:02.

doesn't apply to you. I hope my wife is watching this! If she is not

:57:03.:57:10.

watching it now, you will make her watch it later! Probably. But I

:57:11.:57:17.

trust. I know it will only be as the marriage and that is so important to

:57:18.:57:21.

me and to so many people's marriages. The idea that you want

:57:22.:57:26.

somebody else in your marriage, I'm sorry, but no. That is OK if it is

:57:27.:57:32.

what works for you. But it is naive to think that people don't have

:57:33.:57:34.

extra marital affairs. This is honourable and upfront. How many

:57:35.:57:42.

wives? I am contemplating two and if it worked out really well, maybe a

:57:43.:57:47.

third. When the reasons why this was set up, is because it was not easy

:57:48.:57:52.

for me to do so because our society, they are laughing. 30 years ago they

:57:53.:57:55.

laughed at that gentleman there and I am happy to take the brunt of it.

:57:56.:58:04.

I have been mentioned a number of times. I don't think it is the same

:58:05.:58:07.

as the gay marriage issue because that was about the union of two

:58:08.:58:14.

people. In effect it is the same as opposite sex marriage but two

:58:15.:58:17.

individuals. I would say it is about genuine consent. If there is genuine

:58:18.:58:22.

consent amongst both parties, then I think it should be considered. What

:58:23.:58:33.

is that Abba song? I do, I do, I do, I do! Thank you for your honesty

:58:34.:58:35.

this morning. There we go. As always, the debates will continue

:58:36.:58:38.

online and on Twitter. Next week we're in my home town,

:58:39.:58:41.

Edinburgh, so do join us then. But for now, it's goodbye from

:58:42.:58:44.

Leicester and have a great Sunday.

:58:45.:58:49.

Nicky Campbell presents topical debate live from Leicester Grammar School.

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