17/07/2014 World News Today


17/07/2014

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This is BBC World News Today with me, Daniela Ritorto.

:00:00.:00:07.

A Malaysian Airlines plane with 295 people on board

:00:08.:00:10.

's We will build live across the world assessing the impact of this

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disaster. -- we will be alive. Pictures appear to show

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the plane after it came down Debris is seen falling from the

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darkened sky in the moments after the crash.

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Malaysia Airlines confirmed that it lost contact with flight MH17

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from Amsterdam which was en route to Kuala Lumpur.

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Hello and welcome to this special coverage.

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A Malaysia Airlines plane with nearly 300 people

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on board has crashed in Ukraine near the Russian border.

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There are claims it was shot down - but Ukraine

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and pro-Russian separatists are both denying responsibility.

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There has been fighting on the Ukrainian-Russian border

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since March, after the overthrow of the Ukrainian government.

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Flight MH1-7 took off from Amsterdam just after midday local time,

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Its flight path took it over Ukraine's Donetsk region

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and it came down near the village of Grabovo.

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Four months ago, another Malaysia Airlines plane is

:01:30.:01:31.

believed to have crashed with over 200 people on board.

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With the latest our correspondent Richard Galpin.

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A plume of smoke rising into the sky in eastern Ukraine this afternoon.

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Local people said it was a plain which had just crashed. There is no

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confirmation this was the Malaysian airline which came down with almost

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300 people on board. Eyewitnesses in the region say that they have seen

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burning wreckage and bodies on the ground. Malaysian Airlines quickly

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put out this message on social media.

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The manufacturer, Boeing, said it was investigating. Flight

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#ColourWhite had taken from Amsterdam and was reported to be

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cruising at more than 30,000 feet eastern Ukraine, and area of intense

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conflict between separatists and Ukrainian military. The pro-Russian

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separatists control parts of eastern Ukraine and have done for several

:02:45.:02:50.

months. It has shot down military planes and helicopters in the past.

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They are known to have short-range anti-aircraft missiles and according

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to some reports, have also been seen with heavy weapons. We are talking

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about something every significant. The secessionist have used tanks.

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Bigger not find those lying on the street. They have supplies of

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relatively sophisticated weapons. It would be damaging for them and the

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brush in case if they have got the weapons which can shoot down

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civilian aircraft, but even more damaging if it turns out that the

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missile, if there was one, came from the Russian side of the border.

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These unverified photographs apparently show some of the wreckage

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of the Malaysian plane. The separatists then shooting it down,

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blaming the Ukrainian military. But at the moment, it is still not known

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if it was brought down by military action.

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The BBC's Oleg Boldyrev joins us from Moscow.

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We have heard in that report, we still do not know what happened. Was

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it shot down? What can you tell us from Moscow? The official reaction

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has been muted. President Putin has expressed his condolences. The

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separatists are denying that they have weapons capable of doing that.

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One of the crucial questions is who gets to the crash site, all the

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experts. Initially the separatists say that they will allow

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investigators to come and investigate. The latest comment we

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see is that the local police, which are loyal to the separatist cause,

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will conduct initial investigations. Everyone who is familiar with the

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procedure is not doubt that the policemen will be capable of doing

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that, local policemen. The Russian ministry said it is ready to go and

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help with this, but they have said to the authorities in Kiev, who will

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go to the area of the conflict. That is the biggest question of all.

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Another question we are all asking, did the rail -- did the rebels have

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the hardware capable of bringing down a commercial jet flying at

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10,000 metres? There is no set in stone confirmation that they did.

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There have been reports which are hard to verify. The weaponry that

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they have sometimes surpasses even the Ukrainian capabilities. There

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have been so many reports of weapons from Russia, including modern

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shooting systems and weapon systems crossing over to the rebel side in

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eastern Ukraine. Speculation is that they might have this, but no one has

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seen it all documented it or put it on paper and presented it to the

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world. Anna Holligan joins us from Amsterdam, Schiphol Airport. What is

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this scene there? It is now an unimaginable, painful wait for

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relatives who are arriving at Schiphol airport. Nine hours ago,

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passengers travelled through these gates to board a flight

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#ColourWhite. Airport officials said the relatives and family members of

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those on board that flight have been taken to a special area inside the

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airport, separate from the other passengers, and we expect to hear

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more from them later this evening. They are planning a press conference

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to tell us more details. Do we know anything about the nationalities of

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the Passion yours yet? -- passengers. We have seen reports on

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Twitter that there were 23 Americans on board. It is assumed that what

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Dutch Passion jazz. But it is still so early, so it is still breaking

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news and man of those details have been confirmed. We have heard from

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that Dutch Prime Minister who says he is returning from Brussels

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immediately to deal with the situation. He is deeply shocked by

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what has happened. We will be hearing more from him in the coming

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days. We will come back to you again as well.

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Malaysian airlines is holding a press conference in two hours time,

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that is at 4am local time. That is what we understand. Local media is

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reporting that the Prime Minister might be holding a press conference

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shortly, but we cannot verify that just yet. So far, the information,

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the official information we have been getting, has been limited. We

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have seen senior ministers on twitter, expressing shock, saying

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that they are working closely with the relevant ministries to handle

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this issue. We understand that the transport Minister, who is currently

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in Beijing, is on his way back to Kuala Lumpur or. The transport

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minister was in Beijing to discuss the disappearance of the plane which

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disappeared in March earlier this year, which of course, we still do

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not know what happened to it. And it is fair to say that the reaction in

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Asia on social media and even among my friends in the region has been

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"not again" with Malaysian airlines, the cause of the memory of the

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disappearance of that first plane, which is very fresh. I know that you

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cover the disappearance of MH370. People around the world and the

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region must be sane, not again. The circumstances are different, MH370

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disappeared in March and we do not know exactly what happened. There is

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lots of speculation, which continues. With this one, we have

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seen the blame game, if you like, speaking the correspondence around

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the world. The Ukrainian government, the president of Ukraine, has said

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this is a terrorist act. In the meantime, the rebels say that they

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do not have any capacity to be able to shoot down such a plane. There

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has been a lot of speculation, but at least we have got confirmation

:09:28.:09:31.

from the Ukrainian government that the plane has crashed. And we are

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getting some very disturbing images of the crash site, as well. As Anna

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Holligan was saying from Amsterdam, there are reports of 23 US

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passengers on board the plane which went down. The US State Department

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has said that Washington could not yet confirmed those reports, but it

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was urgently trying to obtain that information. We have seen the same

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reports that you have, at this point. We do not have any confirmed

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information about casualties, the cause, or additional details.

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Thoughts and prayers go out to those on board, their families and loved

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ones. We are closely monitoring the situation. The Secretary of State is

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aware of these reports and we are seeking additional information. The

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embassy in Kiev is in close contact with the authorities about this

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incident but at the moment this is all the details that we have.

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President Obama is about to speak. Let's see if we can join that.

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Please, have a seat. It is wonderful to be back in Delaware. Before I

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begin, obviously the world is watching reports of a grounded

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passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border. It looked

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like it might be a terrible tragedy. We are working to determine whether

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American citizens were on board. That is our first priority. I have

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directed a national security team to stay in contact with the Ukrainian

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government. The United States will offer any assistance that we can to

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help determine what happened, and why. As a country, our thoughts and

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prayers are with all of the passengers and families, whoever and

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wherever they call home. I would like to thank Jeremy Forrest

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introduction. Give him a big round of applause. -- Jeremy, for his

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introduction. speculation. Can we talk about

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facts? The fact I will not there yet. That is the problem. We know

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the background to this. There has been rising tension, there have been

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a number of Ukrainian military aircraft which have been shot down.

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Those have been at low heights. The suspicion is that pro-Russian rebels

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have been using portable surface-to-air missiles, missiles

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they can put on their shoulder, if they see a plane or helicopter, and

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fire at it and shoot it down. This is different. This passenger jet was

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flying at 30,000 feet, ten to limit is. It would be difficult to see

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from the ground. You would have to have had a radar system to lock onto

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that. You would have to have had a medium to long range surface to air

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missile, of the kind that is either locked onto the ground are tracked

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vehicle, and indeed, someone in the Ukraine believes it was a Buk

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system, a Russian system, which has a radar on board. This looks

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different to what has happened in the past. Clearly, what has been

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shot down is different to what has been shot down in the past. The

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targets have been military aircraft and helicopters, this is a civilian

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airline, and it changes the situation is usually. There could be

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dozens of countries involved with citizens on that plane who now want

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answers. Watching pictures of the crash site and the aftermath. People

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are asking, why are commercial airlines flying over a conflict

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zone? Turkish airlines are now rewriting their planes. Shouldn't

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they have done that before? There was a big difference between a

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civilian aeroplane and the military aeroplane in the air, in that it is

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not just about the height that they travel, it is about what they are

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doing. Civilian passenger plane will be what is called squawking,

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identifying itself, letting air traffic control, that -- letting

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them know what height it is at, it will have an identification that is

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known on the ground. If it is a military aircraft it will not have

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that facility. It will still be identifiable to radar stations, but

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it is very different. You would have thought, a civilian passenger plane,

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it should not be a target. That is the assumption. This has clearly

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changed things, and now airlines are saying that they will change their

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ways because of this. people on board but we also have the

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political situation on the ground in Ukraine, what happens next? People

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are being very careful not to watch -- rush to judgement. It is a

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mystery at the moment. People are not sure what exactly happens. There

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is the possibility of a surface-to-air missile, speculation

:15:43.:15:46.

that a fighter jet with a missile or even a terrorist attempt. People

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will look at what has happened but we will be looking at the data. You

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will have experts looking at satellite imagery and they will be

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able to identify whether a surface-to-air missile was fired.

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There will be limited radar information because neat tool do not

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have radar is looking that far east. But there will be information to

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firm up details and give up -- give an accurate assessment. This will be

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very different. Civilians are involved. This does not just involve

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Russia and Ukraine. It involves other countries like America and

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other European countries as well. We will stop our analysis at the

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moment. We want to hear from the Ukrainian president who has

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described the downing of the plane as an act of terrorism and calls for

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an international investigation. I have just concluded a conversation

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with the Prime Minister of melons -- Prime Minister of the Netherlands. I

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offered condolences. I would like to have an investigation into this act

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of terrorism. We are not calling it an accident, but an act of

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terrorism. Those are the words of the Ukrainian president. Let us

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speak to an aviation specialists who joins us from our studio in

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Salford, your immediate thoughts? This is an incident which has filled

:17:28.:17:30.

me with a fair degree of shock and horror. The fact that a civil

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airliner travelling between Amsterdam and Kuala Lumpur or was

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brought down in this fashion, one can only feel a sense of shock. We

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jet ever have thought something like this could happen? Not in this day

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and age, quite frankly. 20, 30, 40 years ago, may be. We did have

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incidents like this long ago. But in this day and age with air traffic

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control systems, with the ability to monitor who is where and anything

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from that air traffic control system through to an iPhone for instance,

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it beggars belief that an aircraft such as this has been brought down

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in such a way. With commercial airlines have taken into account

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when flying over that area that it is a conflict zone? It would not

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have been Mr Savile on their radar. -- Nessus Adderley. They follow a

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great circle route, the shortest distance between one airport and the

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other. They would be operating along a well worn and well used YouTube --

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route which they had used for years. They would probably not give

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consideration as to what is happening on the ground because we

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did not know until two hours ago that the people down on the grounds

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might have the sort of technology to target the civil airliner in such a

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tragic fashion. If France, Turkish airlines, either flocked, they all

:19:41.:19:46.

say they are avoiding eastern Ukraine which is prudent bats?

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Present in deeds but there must be some questions to ask. -- Air

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France. The central control for air traffic control for instance, asking

:20:05.:20:09.

why there was zero detailed information to pass on to airlines

:20:10.:20:12.

to point them in a different direction. Perhaps taking the route

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further north, away from the conflict zone itself. Some of those

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questions will be asked over the coming days. Thank you very much for

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joining us. Let us recap what we are doing. It

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was a Malaysia flight, MH17, flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur or,

:20:41.:20:48.

it took off just after noon. 295 people on board. 15 crew. Ukrainian

:20:49.:20:58.

government, the President is saying that this is an act of terrorism.

:20:59.:21:05.

Nobody has been able to confirm how this plane has come down. There is

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speculation and finger-pointing that it was shot down. Let us speak now

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to another expert. I'm joined now by Charles Hayman,

:21:17.:21:20.

former editor of Jane?s World Armies and now Senior Defence

:21:21.:21:22.

Analyst with the armed forces. Your immediate thoughts? With the

:21:23.:21:32.

rebels have the necessary armoury to shoot down a commercial airliner? We

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have to look at the balance of probabilities first of all. It looks

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from the evidence so far, that are ground to air missile launcher was

:21:50.:21:56.

used. We know that these missile launchers were on the infantry of

:21:57.:22:02.

the Ukrainian government forces. It is quite possible that one or more

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of these missile launchers were about -- were abandoned by Ukrainian

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forces when they left rebel held areas. Most people are beginning to

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think this was fired from a rebel held area. Also, because it was a

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battlefield radar, as Jonathan Beale pointed out, the sophisticated air

:22:24.:22:29.

traffic radar is that the Kiev government have got and the Russian

:22:30.:22:35.

government have got, they would pick up civilian aircraft squawking all

:22:36.:22:40.

the time. But something like this missile launcher, with its own

:22:41.:22:45.

battlefield radar, which only pick up an aircraft and not the fact it

:22:46.:22:53.

was a civilian aircraft. Putting the pieces into the jigsaw puzzle, it is

:22:54.:22:58.

beginning to look as if this was fired from a separatist area and it

:22:59.:23:04.

was fired from an old air defence system which did not identify the

:23:05.:23:09.

aircraft as a civilian airliner. When the separatists denied

:23:10.:23:15.

involvement, they say they have no air defence systems of this kind,

:23:16.:23:22.

what do you say? That is right, they are denying there is but there is

:23:23.:23:27.

evidence to say there was some tweeting coming out of the

:23:28.:23:32.

separatist area saying we had just shot down another Ukrainian

:23:33.:23:37.

government aircraft. The tweet source is the same tweet sources

:23:38.:23:42.

which was boasting about shooting down a Ukrainian government aircraft

:23:43.:23:48.

last week. So the separatists are under suspicion. It is unlikely BPF

:23:49.:23:54.

government would want to do that. After the experiences with the

:23:55.:24:00.

Korean airliner 25 years ago, the Russian government would be loath to

:24:01.:24:04.

involve themselves in a crime of this magnitude. The Russians are

:24:05.:24:10.

canny political operators. They do not tend to make mistakes like this.

:24:11.:24:19.

Thank you very much indeed. Let us get the views of Simon Calder now. I

:24:20.:24:26.

presume your initial reaction was one of shock and horror? Yes, I have

:24:27.:24:33.

been looking at the warnings which were in place. Eight weeks ago the

:24:34.:24:41.

American Federal Administration put out a warning to American pilots and

:24:42.:24:46.

airlines saying exercise extreme caution in Ukraine. They were

:24:47.:24:53.

warning about the area of Crimea and other parts of Crimea and the

:24:54.:24:59.

Ukraine. They said these places were dangerous. Nobody of course was

:25:00.:25:05.

expecting anything like this. For years there have been routine long

:25:06.:25:10.

haul flights over areas of conflict. Airlines are predisposed to fly the

:25:11.:25:15.

most direct route, if that takes them over places like Iraq,

:25:16.:25:22.

Afghanistan and Libya and so on, or view is that the weaponry on the

:25:23.:25:26.

ground is not sophisticated enough to endanger passenger aviation. Can

:25:27.:25:32.

you put this in the historical conflict -- context for as? There is

:25:33.:25:39.

a history of accidental shootings of passenger jets. September the 1st

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1983, the Korean flight on a flight to New York Street Ofqual is over

:25:45.:25:54.

the eastern edge of the soviet union and was shot down by a Soviet

:25:55.:26:01.

fighter. -- Street of quarters. There was an Israeli aircraft on

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route to divide which was shot down by an American warship in the Gulf.

:26:07.:26:13.

That is held by some to be the cause of the Lockerbie attack which

:26:14.:26:23.

happened, some see as revenge. While you have weaponry capable of

:26:24.:26:26.

shooting dead aircraft, this will always be a threat. -- shooting down

:26:27.:26:33.

aircraft. Shoulder launched missiles have always been an issue for

:26:34.:26:41.

aviation experts, that has always been an issue... We have to leave it

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there. You have been watching a special edition. Stay with us for

:26:50.:26:57.

more. Hello there. If you have enjoyed the

:26:58.:27:04.

sunshine today, you may find tomorrow to warm. This low pressure

:27:05.:27:11.

is moving northwards through the night bringing a band of heavy,

:27:12.:27:12.

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