Episode 13 The Culture Show

Episode 13

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Welcome to the Culture Show. This week we are coming from BBC


Scotland's building in Glasgow. Whether you are in the mood for


Murakami or monkey movies, a splendid slice of art or some


British watercolours, whether you'd kill for a new series of The


Killing, or crave some creepy music - stay with us. Coming up, art to


cause outrage. Cult TV, as The Killing comes back to the box. Val


McDermid meets its star, Sofie Grabol. Seminal fiction. A


philosopher on 1984, the novel that inspired the latest work by Haruki


Murakami. And spine-tingling buildings. We check out Aurora


Orchestra's latest offering. Also, psychologist at Philippa Perry


gives her verdict on primate Cinema. Mark Kermode takes a look at Martin


Scorsese's tribute to George Harrison, with a little help from


his friend, Jools Holland. I explore the very brilliant and very


underrated art of the late Edward Burra. And passionate people tell


us about the buildings they think believe -- deserve a heritage Angel


He has taken inspiration from pretty much everybody, ranging from


Picasso to Velazquez. His admirers call him the artist's artist. He


calls himself a psychological Cubist. On the occasion of his


first major retrospective at the Hayward Gallery, Alastair went to


meet him. When his painting appeared on the sleeve of the


rapper Kanye West's last album cover, it caused a bit of a stir. A


strange, demonic looking west was shown with a bushy-tailed wind


woman, a gruesome twosome with a terrible teeth. The artist behind a


provocative Hopman Cup was George condo. He's one of the most


distinctive painters of his generation. Over the past three


decades he has produced a body of work that combines traditional


techniques with distinctly contemporary sensibility. His


paintings are dark and disturbing, often nightmarishly --


nightmarishly Savage. But they are also surprisingly funny. It's all


quite a mind-bending and unruly makes. Mental states offers a mid-


career vet prospective of this intriguing artist. The exhibition


contains more than 30 paintings, and some of the lesser known


sculptural works. I was keen to meet him and find out what


influenced him to come up with his crazy cast of characters. What I


wanted to ask you is it when I look at your work I sometimes worry for


your mental health. Have a look at this stuff up. They're all these


demented creatures. Are they imaginary, they must be! They are.


The most demented portraits are usually done when I'm feeling


pretty relaxed. And that is also the time when I can reflect on what


I see and think about the world around me. Why have you always


decided not to work from life? These are all imaginary creations.


What is wrong with painting a model, someone in front of you?


obviously had to do that numerous times over. But the models are not


necessarily the character you want to paint. Unless I were to find a


woman that looked just like that and go out on the street and say,


hey, would you mind coming into the studio and letting the pain to fora


a few hours? I don't want to do that. It's quite unlikely you will


encounter anyone who looks quite He emerged on to the downtown New


York scene in the early 80s. He had a brief stint at Andy Warhol's


factory, working as a silkscreen printer. Struggling to find his


artistic voice, in 1985 he moved to Paris where he immersed himself in


the paint -- painting techniques of the old masters. His early works


mix the old and the new, a hybrid style he described as artificial


realism. He returned to New York in the mid- 90s and developed his pin


headed portrait technique. He dubbed them his part people. They


start to be able to take on any roles in human life and existence.


In this case, that particular moment in time, 2002, was right


after 9/11. The stock market and everything just was completely


crushing all over the world. I needed to paint something that


reflected that pathetic... Sort of situation that everybody was in.


it fair to say that part of the reason you are so drawn to


deformity and anatomical distortion and extremity is for social reasons,


it's a social comment? Yes. It is a lot to do with the idea of how do


these people feel? Not exactly how do they look, but this is the way


they feel, the inside is on the outside. Not what do they look like


in the mirror, but what are they projecting as a person? This is the


executive. It's another instance of where the unattainable is always


dangling in front of him. I feel very sorry for this man. Those eyes


are lusting after the carrot. You have the strange, distorted anatomy


but that the eyes are so sorrowful. The eyes are very realistic. That


was the switch in the paintings, from 96, 97, they had those big


discs for eyes. Then I suddenly started to turn them more and more


into humans. I at the other end of the spectrum you've got something


which is clearly inspired by a comic book. Here is Batman. This is


kind of the fall of the super hero. This is the manic side, the


flipside of some of the paintings in the other room. She's got one


blue eye, it has a sort of pop out, its cartoon-like. She is missing a


tooth. The other one is a sort of brown eyed. You can almost see the


good old days when she maybe could have been a Playboy bunny, if she


ever were a Playboy bunny. I don't know what could she would have been


On rare occasions he sometimes paints real people. His unusual


portraits of the Queen, briefly displayed at the Tate in 2006,


caused a media storm. People got really angry about it. It was a


fuse Blower and it short circuits did people's perceptions because


it's the same thing which happened with the Kanye West portraits. Once


you paint someone that everyone knows in your own style, it is far


more radical than to alter your style to paint them in a


representation all manner that might be more recognisable to


everyone. How did you feel? I hope I didn't create any disturbances in


the daily life of the Queen. I don't want her to be upset about it.


I think it's fun to have a lot of controversy. I think there is


nothing better than controversy when it comes to art. Otherwise it


just sits there and is a big bore. At the same time, I didn't want to


throw anyone off their rocker. exhibition is at the Hayward


Gallery until January eighth. Next, Haruki Murakami is Japan's most


famous and most famously perplexing literary export. His latest


offering is one Q 84. The clue is in the title. It was inspired by


George Orwell's novel, 1984. We asked for loss of it to explode


just why the concept of 1984 Norwegian Wood, what I talk about


when I talk about running, Kafka On The Shore - these are just a few


examples of Japanese writer Haruki Murakami's extensive back catalogue.


His latest, a three-volume magnum opus, his face the real thriller


and love story. Set in a parallel Tokyo in 1984, it's been described


as a mind-bending old to George Orwell's masterpiece. But just what


is it about this book which has inspired Murakami and countless


other creative minds again and What was born as a novel now has a


life of its own. But most people, 1984 exists not as a book but as an


idea. A vision of a dystopian society that provides a constant


yardstick against which we measure the decline of our own. We look at


the spread of surveillance cameras, central government databases and


proposed ID cards and say - it is so like 1984! But if you had


actually read 1984 you would never say anything so blitz. It's true


that at any time you might receive a knock on the door from someone


who, without your knowledge, had gathered information on you. But it


would only be from someone trying to get you to switch energy


supplier, not solid men in black uniforms with iron short boots on


their feet and truncheons in their hands. There are states which are


ruled by Big Brothers, but Britain is not one of them. It's the


differences between what has actually happened and Orwell's to


stop big nightmare that are most This, in 1984, is London. Chief


City of airstrip One. A province of the state of Oceana. In 1984, the


party gets the public to love it by controlling every thought. --


thought. Even changing the language, so that their minds are forced,


jelly-like, into the mould dictated For us, instead of politicians


trying to change our thoughts, they look at the way we think and to


change policy to fit us. Excuse me, I wonder if I could have some of


your time? It's called politics by focus-group. The parties tried to


make us love them by becoming what they think we want them to beat.


Orwell got this precisely the wrong way round. Thank you. You might


think that 1984 was prescient for foreseeing a National Lottery which,


with its weekly payout of enormous prizes was the one public event to


which the proles paid serious attention. How is this for a vision


of popular culture? Rubbishy newspapers containing almost


nothing except sport, crime and astrology, sensational five send


A lottery ticket, Koudou check this? But in Orwell's Britain, all


of this was produced by the Ministry of truth. The lottery


payouts never really happened. They were fabricated by the Ministry of


plenty. In our Britain people freely choose to go mad for the


lottery. And the free-market takes perfectly good care of trash


culture. We all know that 1984 is a hymn to freedom. However, not


everyone seems to notice that what we usually call freedom isn't what


it all well championed. -- George Orwell championed. Nowadays,


freedom is too often taken to be the licence to be believed and


whatever is true for you. Even at two plus two=five. But this isn't


the message at all. The hero of the book, Winston Smith, couldn't make


it any clearer when he says that freedom is the freedom to say that


two plus two= four. To be truly free is to be able to find the


truth for ourselves and be allowed to uphold it. But unless there is a


truth to discover and defend, then freedom has no value. 1980 code


does still speak to us today, which is why Haruki Murakami is just the


latest in a long list of writers and artists to have found


inspiration in it. But to really learn from it we have to read it


unthinkingly and reflectively. It is not enough to worry that Big


Brother is watching you. You have Volumes 1 and 2 of Murakami's book


are out now one volume three is published next week. Next, they


painted - a painter Edward Burra was a modern master he didn't quite


fit into the standard narrative of 20th century art. So his work has


been largely and criminally glossed over by the history books. As well


as being a wonderful artist, he was a unique character, a true English


eccentric. I thought it was time to find out a bit more about him. From


chorus girls to Harlem street life. Edward Burra was drawn to those on


the margins of society. His name may not be familiar but Burra is


one of the overlooked geniuses of British art, and one of the most


acute, colours of the 20th century. Although his is definitely not the


official version of history. He Edward Burra died in 1976. I never


met him. I am not sure how well even his very best friends really


knew him, certainly I am not sure how much they ever knew about his


art because Burra was quite possibly the single most elusive


British artist of the 20th century. He very, very rarely talked about


his enigmatic images. In fact, he was so reticent he didn't like to


give them titles. And he only ever gave one interview to the media and


that was a filmed interview that he conducted towards the end of his


life. It's rare footage. Not very often seen. And they keep it here


in the archive of the British Fill p Institute -- Film Institute.


Recorded four years before his death, the interview shows an


artist deeply uncomfortable about revealing anything of himself or


his art. A man who hated being interviewed. Who would much rather


be doing what he does best. I am just bored, I don't know what to do.


What would you be doing if we weren't here? Painting.


Born in 1905 he was a delicate and sickly child, plagued by illness.


From a young age he suffered from chronic debilitating arthritis. His


joints began visibly to deform from the age of five or six. And the


pain never left him for the rest of his life. His one buffer against


the hand fate had dealt him was prosperity. He was the son of a


rich lawyer. He would never need to earn a living. He was born in this


house, Springfield near Rye and would spend much of his life living


here with his mother and his father, a semi-permanent invalid, always


forced to return to this, his refuge, and main painting space.


The window is one of his earliest pictures, painted when I was still


a teenager. Like many of his works, its whereabouts is uncertain and


it's known only in black and white reproduction. It's an image that


reveals his sense of his own predicament with piercing clarity,


an ambiguous figure sits on this this side of the window, not


wheelchair bound but certainly chair-bound while outside life goes


on. Two girls can be seen through the window, perhaps his sisters.


Little Betsy and Anne. But the central figure, Burra's ultra


etkpwo remains in place -- alter ego.


Throughout his childhood Burra escaped the limits of his own body


through painting and drawing. Art had become the most important thing


in his life. And at the young age of 15 in 19121 he decided to escape


Rye for the Chelsea College of Art in London. He loved London's spirit


of limitless possibility, but it was the hidden darker side of the


city that he caricatured in early drawings. Burra received a


straightforward art education by the standards of the early 1920s


with a strong emphasis on draftsmanship which perhaps helps


to explain his very confident and strong sense of line, but equally


important to him were the friends he made at art school, lifelong


friends, a future photographer and ballet dancer. What they had in


common was a great sense of fun and as Burra later said, frivolity.


Those things too filtered straight through to his art.


As well as going to the movies, the young Burra went to galleries of


modern art. A mix of independent tphraoupbses soon to be -- of


influences soon to be reflected in his own work. This is one of his


rare oil paintings. It's a classic image and gives us a wonderful


snapshot of where he is at as an artist in his early maturity. He's


clearly fascinated by Picasso, painting the modern world as a


collage of startling detail. The wood grain of a door, tiling of a


floor, the texture of a bar counter. I think what makes it Burra-esque


is the Spence that -- sense that underneath the apparently innocent


surface of the scene all kinds of rather disturbing currents seem to


be running. It was this ability to find the darkness in the everyday


that gave his work an increasing sense of menace and Mel and


melancholy throughout his life. You can find out more about Edward


Burra in my new documentary about him on Monday 24th October on BBC 4


at 10.00pm. The very first serious


retrospective of his paintings for more than 30 years has opened at


the Pallant House gallery in Chichester and continues until 19th


February. Next, it's time to look at the latest batch of buildings


competing for the heritage angel award. English Heritage's Simon


Thurley continues his architectural odyssey around Britain locking at


buildings brought back from the brink by people who care


passionately about them. Today, sigh machine's looking at the four


contenders in the places of worship category.


In 1964 an exciting new building appeared on the outskirts of


Nottingham. As though from outer space, it


looked alien, daring, a vision of the future. The Church of the Good


Shepherd was the work of Gerard Goalen and represented the optimism


of a bright new age of technology. The Church's unusual interior


design with the altar to one side of a centralised plan was ground-


breaking. So, too, was its use of concrete to creates its modernist


angular forms. But perhaps the most remarkable thing about this Church


is the tremendous wall of dalle deverre stained glass that floods


the altar with multicoloured light. This is not just a temple to God,


this is a temple to contemporary design.


But it was precisely the use of its innovative materials that led to


its near ruination. Within 20 years concrete cancer had set in and the


job of restoration began. There was a problem where the steel rods in


some of the lower parts of the stained glass window were rusting


and the candle wax, grease, had disfigured some of the honeycomb


effect so we had to get that cleaned and get back to what my


little grand-niece described it as fruit salad window. It will become


for us our spiritual dream... you a lover of this type of


architecture from the beginning or did you have to be gradually


converted? I took to it straightaway. It has a charm of its


own that makes people love it and want to keep it. I feel privileged


to have been allowed to come in and help. It gave me a purpose in life.


To mark the efforts of all the volunteers who have helped restore


the Church, a new Angelus bell was recently installed which is


remotely controlled to sound each day. The second entry in the


worship category, the Church of St Peter's in Leicestershire has


hardly changed since it was built in the late 15th century. The


ancient name for the dooms day village was a settlement of robbers


but little of its criminal ancestry remains today, an army of Saints,


rather than sinners, have been hard at work restoring their beloved


Church. When you drive down that road


coming into the village the first thing you see is the Church tower.


Life wouldn't be the same in the village without it. That was one of


the things that sort of rallied the troopsing to. Ten years ago it was


like lots of Oldchurches. It smelt, there was a lot of damp and reKay.


But everybody -- decay. But everybody has been prepared to join


in, to work and offer whatever services they possibly can. Money


from the Heritage Lottery Fund has allowed the trust to replace a


collapsed floor, restore its Victorian pews and salvage the


original 1898 pipe organ. Before the restoration you couldn't get a


note out of it. It was under a thick layer of dust, it was a


broken shell and now it's been brought to life. The original


condition, and it's a great thing. Shackerstone may have the honour of


being mentioned in the Doomsday Book, but the third building up for


the award also has an impressive historic pedigree. The 12th century


St James Priory is thought to be Bristol's oldest surviving building.


Once the heart of a great monastic settlement it now is surrounded by


busy life. Most pass it unawares. But its doors are always open,


ready to welcome in anyone in need of quiet contemplation, or more.


Like the more famous celebrity clinic priory in London it forms


part of a drug and drink rehabilitation centre. The majority,


the vast majority of our residents come with a carrier bag or nothing.


They literally come from prison or from the park. They're chaotic lost,


lonely souls who are broken, find their way to us. When I calm came


to this Church I would always get an overwhelming feeling of calmness,


my head would be racing with the paranoia where I would be


withdrawing from the drugs I was taking before. Even though the head


was racing this building would give me an overwhelming feeling of


calmness and make me feel protected and comforted. We have always felt


that the Church is the beating heart of our project, that the


Church is where we get the strength to carry out the work that we do.


It's felt like a long journey but you just look at it now and think


the Oasis of peace that we wanted to build in the heart of the city,


it's here. The final building competing in the


worship category is the former Church of St Margaret of Antioch in


the inner city area of Leeds skaf six. Not much to look at from the


outside. In fact, most people hurry past its forbidding exterior. But


step inside and you will be greeted by a wonderful sight. The soaring


neo-gothic interior is designed to lift your spirits. The moment that


people walk through the door is one of the best parts of my job really,


to see the jaw drop and the eyes open and people say wow and then


there is a pause and then they swear and then they say, what


they'd like to do in the space. The area where the building is is


incredibly diverse. We have a fantastic fashion show in the last


few weeks. Tkpwots of gig -- lots of gigs, we have had parties, it


goes on and on really. The heritage angels who have given the Church


its new wings are left bank Leeds, a collective of young young


Christians whose patron is IRA pat -- - Corinne Bailey Rae -- -.


think it's really important to recognise that this building came


about because of the local community. It was paid for by


subscription, so for me the building and anyone who uses it has


a depth to the community and as a musician I want to continue to be


linked to the community that I am from.


I do hope that you have enjoyed bringing this -- being in this


building, it's really amazing. Still to come tonight: Weird and


wonderful primate cinema and music from Aurora orchestra. Next, rot in


the state of Denmark hasn't gripped the great British public this much


since hamlet. Dan irk detective drama the killing became a cult


crime hit last year and it's to return to BBC4. Understated heroine


Sarah Lund is at the heart of the action more. We set Val McDermid to


I am so sorry, it is Mary's afternoon off it. Once upon a time,


the female television detective was a little old lady with fluffy,


white hair who always deferred to the cops. Not exactly a figure


which resonated with most modern women. Like they say there has bus


commercials, why don't you just sit back and leave the driving to us?


Television drama has come a long way since Jessica Fletcher and Jane


Marple, but I think it's safe to say we've never encountered a


detective as singular and surly as the brilliance -- brilliant Sarah


Lund. The first series of The Killing saw its female detective


investigate the brutal murmur - VAT Much more than a simple whodunit,


Sarah Lund's search for the killer led her through the corridors of


power and shone a light on the dark heart of Danish society and


politics. As the plot played out over 20 slow-burning episodes,


Lund's obsession with the truth threaten to enter police career for


Over the years, I have made my own contribution to the evolution of


the female sleuth, both in books and television. But now me and my


fellow trailblazers have been overtaken by a Danish Grayshon


mohair knitwear, and we are all backing to find out what happens


next to Sarah Lund. Sarah Lund is an aspirational character. In many


respects she does the kind of things we don't like to do but


don't usually have the nerve to do it. Where did the roots of that


character like? I'd worked with the brighter, Soren Sveistrup, before


on another television series. And also the same producer. They phoned


me a year before, saying... Soren Sveistrup had a loose idea. He knew


he wanted to make a crime story. He knew he wanted only one murder. He


knew he wanted a female investigator. Out of those meetings


came a direction for this character. As an actor, you are always looking


for a challenge. You are looking to always go somewhere. Though some


way you haven't been before. Up until that point, I had always


played very emotional characters. Traditional feminine characters. I


had been crying a lot and shouting a lot and feeling a lot and


communicating a lot. I remember saying at that very first meeting,


I'd like to play a person who is not able to communicate. When I was


standing on the set, especially in the beginning, I actually found it


It is the writer's story, but this writer, Soren Sveistrup, he insists


on writing as we go along. That means that we are shooting one


episode at a time. He is writing on the next episode as we shoot the


first one. But it allows him to take a lot from actors. If you add


something as an actor, then he will start writing in that direction if


he gets inspired. The one relationship that is at the heart


of that first series of The Killing is the relationship with the jumper.


When you see series that have female protagonists, they always


have a nice wardrobes. You've got this woman wearing the same jumper


week after week after week for 20 weeks. The jumper becomes almost


iconic. I don't know what it is with that jumper, but they have


been times when I've felt that it was wearing me! A lot more than I


was wearing it. We knew we were looking for somebody not a cliche


type of detective. Not a woman in a suit. So we had tons of clothes and


I just spotted that jumper. I just felt right away that that was it.


Sarah Lund and her boss are the only characters to the service in


the second series of The Killing. Demoted from detectives the status


at the end of series 1, Lund was called back in to help solve a very


It's a much more complicated plot. It is a shorter. There are less


episodes. Where the first season was this a very small story of one


girl being killed and one family... In the second season the story is


lifted up on a higher level. So it deals with politics on a greater


scale, and it deals with Walk, In series two, it is again set


principally in Denmark, but I believe there are parts of it that


are set in Afghanistan. Did you go to Afghanistan to film? No. But


then again, a pity to reveal that. No, we went to Spain, where they


did all the spaghetti westerns. They have a desert there. It was


very hot in the jumper. You wore your jumper? Oh, yes! That's


fabulous! The second series of The Killing, starring Sofie Grabol in


that jumper, starts next month on BBC Four. Aurora Orchestra is one


of the most dynamic and innovative forces in British classical music.


For their latest project they teamed up with the celebrated


American horror writer, --, Peter Stroud, to make a thriller


automatic writing. It weaves text around a series of spine-tingling


musical themes. But both writer and musicians claim other voices may be


Any theatrical spectacle involve the suspension of disbelief. And


Aurora Orchestra's new show is no accept -- exception. So leave your


rational mind at the door and open yourself to a world where the


supernatural is palpably present. Where elements from another realm


intrude upon ours. And all is not We are going to work on a programme


that involves using music in connection with paragraphs from a


novel of mine called Shadow land. We envisaged floating, enigmatic


passages of text which would match the mood or contrast with the mood


of what ever orchestral pieces were to be played. My voice is reading a


script that indicates the confusion between the realms of the real and


the imagined. There's not really a narrative to this event. We hope


there is an intriguing trail of thought which you lose yourself


along. It is a theatrical love affair with music-making, with


classical music making. It is based on the idea that when you pick up


an instrument you are channelling a kind of lost energy, the energy of


a composer who may not be there, all the thoughts and inspirations


of a composer of which may have Behind that is another voice,


another art form, in the form of literature. In this particular


instance, in the form of Peter's kind of literature. It is trying to


get through to us. The core experience for the audience is a


concert, but the audience get an increasing impression that


something else was going on and trying to break through into this


medium with a different voice. us about those duets, because there


is something very elegiac in that music. Absent friends that he is


referring to. He wrote 34 of them. They are all for composers or


musicians that he knew. They are beautiful. You can imagine them as


if they were four friends who aren't there any more. They are


very short, like little postcards. All of has concentrated ideas are


in them. They create an amazing This is certainly not your average


classical music concerts. Is there an element of improvisation going


on? There is. We have an eclectic repertoire in there. Something we


enjoy doing is focusing on the skills of our players. There will


be a couple of moments where they will be playing together, just


creating a soundscape, maybe with some structures in place. That is a


really liberating experience for I find it is often some of the most


pure music making, because you don't have anything there. Thoughts


are quite simple. You are thinking about colour and sound. If you know


the people very well, you are interested in who is doing what.


is a musical conversation. You are just listening and responding as


I tend to think about music in shapes. I am aware of it spatially.


Especially when I'm improvising, my eyes are open and seeing the


different shapes. If I see gaps then I will play in those gaps. If


Is it whisky? Yes. By nature it is risky. Every night there will be


something different, it will sound different. You never know, because


you have to take what people give you. The very nature of it means it


is always unexpected. This is not a scary peace. It is unsettling,


which is a very good aesthetic goal. To create something which makes the


ground between people's feet feel a little less steady. Why do you


think audiences enjoy the suspension of disbelief so much?


You go to a performance, you are entering into an invitation, you


are entering into a deal. Please suspend my disbelief in a way. It


gives us a taste of something which is not our world. It allows us a


moment of oblivion sometimes as well. How does music playing to


that, how does music enhance those feelings and emotions? Music can


paint a picture that words can't. In the context of this concert, it


can create violent explosions, it can have the beautiful, tender


atmosphere is which can make you look at things in a slightly


The show is on tour from the end of the month, finishing up at St


Luke's in London on fourth November. Next, Primate Cinema. No, not


movies about monkeys created for human beings, but dramas about


chimps, played by humans, created for the appreciation of chimps and


then show to human beings as works of art. All will become clear. We


sent Philippa Perry to delve into Humans, or the naked ape as Desmond


Morris called us. Is it any wonder we are so fascinated by other


primates? In our desire to learn more about human behaviour, it's


unsurprising we should turn to our closest relations.


But what is it in our psyche that drives the need to attribute human


qualities and abilities to animals? Humans instinctively want to reach


out and make contact. And we frequently fail to do this with


each other, which might be one of the reasons we look to primates. If


chimps and apes are our closest cousins they're also our most


exploited, certainly in cinematic terms. The original big daddy of


apes on film was, of course, King Kong. The most recent spin-off of


Planet of the Apes, portrayed the apes rising up in a bid to escape


human tyranny. Over the years humans have cast primates in


countless films. But what would happen if we were to cast ourselves


in a film primarily for their entertainment?


Well, Rachel Mayeri has attempted to find out by making a primate


drama with a difference. Tell me what you wanted to achieve with


Primate Cinema? I wanted to communicate with chimpanzees


through an artwork, we tested for a year to see what chimps would be


interested in watching and from that information I came up with an


original script and the idea was to appeal to chimpanzees and also


human beings to be able to understand something of khfrp --


chimpanzee minds by seeing what it was in the film that I made that


appealed to them. The main drama centres on a chimp befriending a


group of outsiders, all played by humans in costume. This film was


then shown to real chimpanzees located in Edinburgh Zoo. The final


piece juxtaposes the drama, with footage of the real chimps reacting


to it. I am curious if this is for chimps, why you are not using


chimpanzee frames of reference more? For instance, we have


narrative, we have got cropped images. How can a chimp even begin


to follow that? For one thing, I was interested in giving the chimps


some novelty, I wanted to show them a situation they had never seen


before, like the inside of a fridge or a house. I included dramas


around sex, food, territory, social rank and that's for chimps and on


another level I was making a film for human beings to reflect on our


representations of chimpanzees in films, our romantic ideas about


nature. From what I could see, the chimps never watched it for very


long. I think that while they may not be following the larger


narrative that's intended for human beings, they are possibly


recognising characters and they're responding to moments of high


energy in the narrative. I guess I like to think that the history of


films about apes so far have been films that take apes to be a kind


of monster or a clown and I hope that my film is slightly more about


engaging what chimpanzees are actually like. But there is, of


course, a danger in trying to second guess how our primate


cousins look at the world. As shown by recent documentary Project Nim


by James Marsh, we might be the same species, but huge gaps in the


understanding between us remain. The film is the story of a


chimpanzee taken from its mother, pretty much when it's born and


given to a human mother as if it were a human child. It's an


experiment that was done by a university in the 70s and the


objective is to see whether if you humanise a chimpanzee, can that


then learn a language the way a human child would learn? And be


able to communicate with us what he is thinking which is incredibly


radical and mind-boggling idea that we could find out how a chimp sees


the world. Young had this idea that we project out our shadow side on


to other people or to other species or other animals. Do you think we


like primates in films so much because we are projecting our


aggression on to... That's a very good idea, because the chimpanzee


physically resembles us, their faces have emotions we think we


understand. They seem to be able to engage with us in a certain way.


They're easy to project on to, but all animals that are out there,


they're the easiest vessel for our fears and sometimes our


misunderstandings. There's also a danger in that, too. As you see in


Project Nim it doesn't end well for the chimpanzee, this sort of


meddling with his nature. When the experiment to humanise Nim fails he


is abandoned in a cage for medical research. So, in that respect it's


quite a sober conclusion one can draw from project Nim and perhaps a


disappointing one, there is a limit so how much we can overlap and


connect with our closest animal relative. Perhaps, as with most


films concerning primates, Rachel's film also tells us more about


humans and our beliefs than it does about the animals. Can you tell me


a little bit about what you wanted to achieve as an artist with this


piece? I think that every artist wants to defamiliarise the world a


bit and in a way thinking about ourselves as primates within the


ape family is a way of making what it means to be human a little bit


strange. It's an interesting idea. But I am not sure that either the


science or the art of primate cinema quite work and I am not sure


what the chimps get out of it either. But it shows that using


primates as a mirror will always continue to fascinate us.


Primate Cinema is at the arts catalyst in London until 13th


November. Now for cinema of a different kind.


Living in the material world is Martin Scorsese's epic documentary


tribute to the late beatle George Harrison. Jools Holland has


described making music with Harrison as one of the greatest


privileges of his life. So, Mark Kermode went to find out what Jools


made of the new film. And, of Harrison himself.


We are here at Television Centre, Jools Holland is rehearsing for the


next edition of Later and he doesn't like to break from


rehearsals for anything, except to You have seen George Harrison


Living in the Material World, how fair a representation of George do


you think it is? Well, I was really impressed with this film. I think


it's an amazing work because at the end of it I felt as though I had


been in George's company. I felt that you really got his personality,


which was a complex personality and all of our personalities are, I


thought it captured all the # I saw her standing there...


He was cocky, a cocky little guy. He had a good sense of himself. He


wasn't cowed by anything. He had a great haircut. I learned new things


looking at it it about George's early life, about his personality,


about how he always felt because he was the youngest he was always


treated as the youngest even when he was grownup, thanks very much.


Don't bother me, this is remake calling it take ten... Don't bother


me, that's the first song, it was written as an exercise to see if I


could write a song, if John and Paul can write, everybody must be


able to write. It's like he is a person, as a songwriter, he is like


a Burt Bacharach. But then fate has cast him into a group with John


Take 12! His songs do stand as distinctly their own. Which stand


out for you and what is it about him musically you think is


important? I think that - all things must pass is a fantastic


song. That's like a really just beautiful song. In every element


about it. I think the other thing that's great about his songs, like


a Hank Williams song, they can be done in any different style.


# Still my guitar gently weeps... I always felt really close to the


public and where I grew up and that's where I suppose I wrote some


songs that were like, hey, you can all experience this, you know. It


is, it's available for everyone. People talk about Harrison seeing


the Pythons as taking on the mantle of the Beatles, there was edgy


humour there. One of the things people forget about the Beatles as


a group, to put George in the context of the film and comedy,


when you see the Beatles being interviewed they're sharp and funny.


We have been together now for... have all been mates for a long time.


So we don't get on each other's nerves as much as we could. George


enjoyed his humour and I think that he saw in the Pythons that same


sort of abstract humour going on which he rather liked. It made him


laugh. He liked to laugh. We had written Life of Brian, we had EMI


putting up the money for the movie and we get a call and Bernie to his


friends, had finally got around to reading the script, apparently, he


hadn't read it before. He was shocked and horrified and he said


there's no way EMI is going to be involved in this filth and pulled


the plug on the Thursday. We were dead. Eventually when we finally


got to California George says I figured it out, we are going to


create a company, and we are going to give you the money. It's $4


million and he mortgaged his house to put up the money for this movie.


Because he wanted to see it. One of the things that is tpas Nat --


fascinating, he seemed to facilitate great work in others.


It's classic British cult movies, that if it hadn't been for his


support those wouldn't have happened. What everyone says his


por was -- support was yes I will make it happen but then stand back


and not get involved, which sounds like the ideal producer. I think he


wanted to have fun, as well. Also, from being in the Beatles, he had


enough of being in the limelight, he didn't want to be the star,


didn't want to be photographed going up the red carpet and that


sort of thing. He had no idea in that. He was really interested in


the enjoyment of creating something and the fun of doing it and the fun


of hanging around with people he liked. What is it that you found


most most interesting in that documentary which you are in,


incidentally? Well, me, of course! That was by far the best bit.


Olivia Harrison said to me score sor score saw that film -- Martin


Scorsese saw that film and that song and every every element of


that is perfect and it was, because George produced it, by being there


and just gently saying I think that works. Never bell lowing


instructions, almost looking and you go with what his feeling was.


It would be hard to fit anybody we know, whether it's a relative or


your next door neighbour, to fit their lives into a documentary,


it's pretty hard. Most importantly, you capture the spiritual George


and the man that was in good humoured and kind and spiritual,


which actually that's all you could ask from anybody as a human being


really. And Living in the Material World


will be screened by the BBC later this year.


That's about it for tonight. We will be back next week with new


music from David Lynch and I will be exploring a new show about the


expeditions of Scott and Shackleton. We will leave you with another


highlight from this year's London film festival. The Black Power Mix


Tape features remarkable unseen footage of the American civil


rights struggle hidden away until now in Swedish television archives.


It's also on general release this week. Good night.


When you see images, you only see the speeches. This is the first


time I have seen something where he is hanging out with people, his


mother and he seemed like a regular dude. That's what you don't realise


about his theme, none of these people are evil or bad or even


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